1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:15,890 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,370 --> 00:00:19,610 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Laurie Santos. 3 00:00:19,690 --> 00:00:21,370 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford, and this. 4 00:00:21,250 --> 00:00:24,250 Speaker 3: Is another crossover episode of my podcast The Happiness. 5 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:28,570 Speaker 1: Lab and my podcast Cautionary Tales. Laurie, last time I 6 00:00:28,650 --> 00:00:30,610 Speaker 1: took the lead, I told you a story about the 7 00:00:30,690 --> 00:00:33,970 Speaker 1: tensions between everyone taking a vacation at the same time 8 00:00:34,570 --> 00:00:38,210 Speaker 1: and an idea from Stalin's Soviet union, where it was 9 00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:41,170 Speaker 1: decreed that workers had to stagger their days off, no 10 00:00:41,170 --> 00:00:43,610 Speaker 1: matter what that meant for missing leisure time with their 11 00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:47,370 Speaker 1: friends and families. So this time it's the return match, 12 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:50,370 Speaker 1: as it were. So, what cautionary tale of happiness have 13 00:00:50,410 --> 00:00:51,290 Speaker 1: you got in store for me? 14 00:00:51,850 --> 00:00:52,770 Speaker 2: Oh, it's a good one. 15 00:00:52,890 --> 00:00:55,290 Speaker 3: It's a story of how we're all biased towards action 16 00:00:55,650 --> 00:00:58,330 Speaker 3: and how we sometimes struggle to do less, especially when 17 00:00:58,370 --> 00:01:00,850 Speaker 3: it involves doing nothing at all. It's a tale that 18 00:01:00,850 --> 00:01:03,130 Speaker 3: will take us to where the blue skies start turning 19 00:01:03,170 --> 00:01:05,890 Speaker 3: to inky black, because today we're going to go to 20 00:01:05,970 --> 00:01:32,250 Speaker 3: the very edge of space. My story today involves one 21 00:01:32,290 --> 00:01:37,730 Speaker 3: of my favorite American heroes, Major Charles E. Jaeger, as 22 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:40,410 Speaker 3: a young fighter pilot in World War Two, Chuck not 23 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:43,210 Speaker 3: only shot down a huge number of enemy aircraft but 24 00:01:43,250 --> 00:01:46,130 Speaker 3: also successfully evaded the Nazis when he was shot down 25 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:49,610 Speaker 3: over occupied France. During his time on the run, Chuck 26 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:53,450 Speaker 3: helped the French resistance attack German troops and even won 27 00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:56,130 Speaker 3: a medal for helping an American pilot cross the snowy 28 00:01:56,170 --> 00:02:00,050 Speaker 3: Pyrenees to reach safety in Spain. Chuck was just that 29 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:03,690 Speaker 3: kind of hero, and he didn't chill out during peacetime either. 30 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:08,010 Speaker 3: He kept flying, securing his place in history by traveling 31 00:02:08,050 --> 00:02:10,530 Speaker 3: faster than the speed of sound in a rocket powered 32 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:14,250 Speaker 3: aircraft he named Glamorous Glennis in honor of his wife. 33 00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:18,770 Speaker 3: Other pilots had perished in their pursuit of this speed record, 34 00:02:18,850 --> 00:02:22,450 Speaker 3: but Chuck broke the sound barrier with characteristic nonchalance. He 35 00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:24,850 Speaker 3: even failed to tell his team that he'd fallen from 36 00:02:24,890 --> 00:02:27,210 Speaker 3: a horse and broke in several ribs just before his 37 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:29,930 Speaker 3: test flight. He probably figured that they wouldn't want to 38 00:02:29,930 --> 00:02:31,970 Speaker 3: trust a guy who could barely raise his arms to 39 00:02:32,010 --> 00:02:37,330 Speaker 3: fly their expensive experimental aircraft. But none of these stories 40 00:02:37,370 --> 00:02:40,410 Speaker 3: explained why Chuck Yeager is a hero to happiness experts 41 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:43,090 Speaker 3: like me. That stems from an incident that took place 42 00:02:43,170 --> 00:02:47,170 Speaker 3: later a couple of weeks before Christmas in nineteen fifty three, 43 00:02:49,250 --> 00:02:52,610 Speaker 3: Chuck was now piloting an upgraded version of the glamorous Glennis, 44 00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:55,890 Speaker 3: the new X one A. The X one A was 45 00:02:55,890 --> 00:02:58,210 Speaker 3: built to travel more than twice the speed of sound. 46 00:02:58,690 --> 00:02:59,730 Speaker 2: Chuck was excited to. 47 00:02:59,650 --> 00:03:02,770 Speaker 3: Try out the new aircraft, especially since a pilot from 48 00:03:02,770 --> 00:03:06,090 Speaker 3: the US Navy had recently beaten his record. Chuck was 49 00:03:06,130 --> 00:03:09,050 Speaker 3: pretty eager to reclaim his crown as the fastest man alive. 50 00:03:10,850 --> 00:03:12,890 Speaker 3: Back then, no one really knew what would happen to 51 00:03:12,890 --> 00:03:15,250 Speaker 3: an airplane or a human body when it reached that 52 00:03:15,330 --> 00:03:18,170 Speaker 3: velocity in height. The forces Chuck was about to face 53 00:03:18,210 --> 00:03:21,690 Speaker 3: were as unprecedented as they were dangerous. So cut to 54 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:25,290 Speaker 3: December twelfth, nineteen fifty three, Jaeger's tenth flight and the 55 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:28,290 Speaker 3: X one A began routinely enough. Chuck and the X 56 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:30,290 Speaker 3: one A got carried high into the sky by a 57 00:03:30,290 --> 00:03:33,450 Speaker 3: big bomber plane. The X and A was then dropped 58 00:03:33,450 --> 00:03:35,570 Speaker 3: from the belly of the bomber and Chuck ignited the 59 00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:41,130 Speaker 3: experimental rocket at The X and A flew upwards fast, 60 00:03:42,490 --> 00:03:45,930 Speaker 3: but soon started kind of freaking out. It was pitching 61 00:03:45,970 --> 00:03:49,610 Speaker 3: and rolling and tumbling. Chuck grappled with the controls inside 62 00:03:49,650 --> 00:03:52,490 Speaker 3: the cockpit but nothing the pilot did seemed to stop 63 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:57,330 Speaker 3: the plane's violent descent, and so the X one A 64 00:03:57,450 --> 00:03:59,930 Speaker 3: was now plummeting out of the sky while tossing its 65 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:04,050 Speaker 3: poor test pilot around like a rag doll. At some point, 66 00:04:04,170 --> 00:04:07,530 Speaker 3: Yaeger was thrown violently into the cockpit's canopy. 67 00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:08,490 Speaker 2: He even cracked the. 68 00:04:08,410 --> 00:04:12,130 Speaker 3: Plastic with his flight helmet. All this goes to say 69 00:04:12,290 --> 00:04:15,770 Speaker 3: this was not a good situation. In a matter of seconds, 70 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:19,410 Speaker 3: the experimental aircraft dropped more than six miles. Even if 71 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:21,730 Speaker 3: Jeger had known how to stop the X one a's 72 00:04:21,810 --> 00:04:24,610 Speaker 3: rapid descent, he was too dazed to operate the controls. 73 00:04:25,330 --> 00:04:28,850 Speaker 3: Was the plane rolling or spinning? Chuck had no idea. 74 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:31,010 Speaker 3: There was nothing he could do but surrender to the 75 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:33,930 Speaker 3: g forces jostling him in his seat as the aircraft 76 00:04:34,010 --> 00:04:36,650 Speaker 3: fell towards the barren Mojave desert below. 77 00:04:39,090 --> 00:04:41,810 Speaker 1: Laurie. This is the kind of cliff hangout opening that 78 00:04:41,850 --> 00:04:44,690 Speaker 1: my cautionary tails listeners will be familiar with. A doomed 79 00:04:44,770 --> 00:04:48,410 Speaker 1: plane and an equally doomed pilot hurtling towards Earth. So 80 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:50,890 Speaker 1: what did Chuck Yeger do? 81 00:04:51,530 --> 00:04:51,890 Speaker 2: Nothing? 82 00:04:52,850 --> 00:04:56,610 Speaker 3: Nothing, well, mostly nothing, which is why happiness experts like 83 00:04:56,650 --> 00:05:00,250 Speaker 3: me loved what happened next. Chuck was known for his 84 00:05:00,330 --> 00:05:03,610 Speaker 3: nerves a steel, but this situation had him totally spooked. 85 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:05,490 Speaker 3: He later said that if the X one A had 86 00:05:05,490 --> 00:05:08,010 Speaker 3: been fitted with an ejection seat, he would have used it, 87 00:05:08,370 --> 00:05:10,610 Speaker 3: but most experts say if he'd done that, there'd be 88 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:12,810 Speaker 3: no way he would have survived. In the parlance of 89 00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:15,570 Speaker 3: test pilots, he would have been committing suicide to save 90 00:05:15,650 --> 00:05:19,370 Speaker 3: himself from dying. So without any way to escape, Yeager 91 00:05:19,410 --> 00:05:22,250 Speaker 3: had two options. Option one, he could do everything in 92 00:05:22,290 --> 00:05:25,330 Speaker 3: his power to write his tumbling rocket ship to be fair. 93 00:05:25,570 --> 00:05:27,650 Speaker 3: This was what Truck tried to do at the beginning, 94 00:05:28,010 --> 00:05:30,930 Speaker 3: but his attempts to use the controls didn't work. At best, 95 00:05:31,010 --> 00:05:33,130 Speaker 3: they did nothing, and they also may have made a 96 00:05:33,130 --> 00:05:36,690 Speaker 3: bad situation even worse. So once the plane's descent became 97 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:40,490 Speaker 3: too violent, he was forced into option number two. Just 98 00:05:40,570 --> 00:05:44,850 Speaker 3: do nothing, just write it out, and that is exactly 99 00:05:44,850 --> 00:05:48,930 Speaker 3: what saved him. When the X ONEA hit about twenty 100 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:53,250 Speaker 3: five thousand feet, it finally steady. The aircraft was still spinning, 101 00:05:53,610 --> 00:05:55,170 Speaker 3: but it was the kind of spin that Yeager was 102 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:58,770 Speaker 3: familiar with. Once all the nightmarish bucking and tumbling was over, 103 00:05:59,170 --> 00:06:01,530 Speaker 3: the veteran test pilot was finally able to pull up 104 00:06:01,530 --> 00:06:04,010 Speaker 3: the nose of his craft down to twenty five that 105 00:06:04,730 --> 00:06:07,010 Speaker 3: I would want to get back to play. Sure, huh. 106 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:10,090 Speaker 3: If you listen to Yeager's cockpit recordings, his fear is 107 00:06:10,250 --> 00:06:12,850 Speaker 3: very obvious and his relief is palpable. 108 00:06:13,690 --> 00:06:14,530 Speaker 1: I can't very much. 109 00:06:14,530 --> 00:06:18,050 Speaker 2: Before I got it, he knew he was in trouble, 110 00:06:18,330 --> 00:06:20,010 Speaker 2: but in the end he was going to make it 111 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:21,450 Speaker 2: home all right. 112 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:29,370 Speaker 3: I don't know a thing up or not. The wild 113 00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:32,970 Speaker 3: Ride wasn't a total disaster. The X one A had 114 00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:36,250 Speaker 3: topped out at mock two point four to four, and 115 00:06:36,330 --> 00:06:39,930 Speaker 3: that record was finally enough for Chef Boy. He told 116 00:06:39,930 --> 00:06:46,890 Speaker 3: his team, I'm not going to do that anymore. Jaeger 117 00:06:46,970 --> 00:06:49,450 Speaker 3: walked away safely from the X one A and never 118 00:06:49,530 --> 00:06:50,850 Speaker 3: flew a wocketplane again. 119 00:06:53,650 --> 00:06:56,370 Speaker 1: I love the story, Laurie, and it's definitely a cautionary tale. 120 00:06:56,370 --> 00:07:00,090 Speaker 1: But what's the happiness moral of this anecdote? 121 00:07:00,250 --> 00:07:02,050 Speaker 3: Well, I first heard this story from one of my 122 00:07:02,050 --> 00:07:05,690 Speaker 3: favorite meditation teachers, the psychologist Tara Brack. She shares it 123 00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:08,530 Speaker 3: as a cautionary tale. But our usual need to constantly 124 00:07:08,530 --> 00:07:11,210 Speaker 3: be in control of every facet of our lives. When 125 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:14,010 Speaker 3: Rafe's with a problem, most of us instinctively want to 126 00:07:14,050 --> 00:07:17,050 Speaker 3: take action. We feel the need to do something, even 127 00:07:17,090 --> 00:07:18,970 Speaker 3: in cases when we kind of know our actions will 128 00:07:19,010 --> 00:07:22,370 Speaker 3: be an ineffective or even make stuff worse. Tera says 129 00:07:22,370 --> 00:07:24,490 Speaker 3: that in times like this we need to copy the 130 00:07:24,490 --> 00:07:27,410 Speaker 3: great Chuck Yeger. We need to pause, take our hands 131 00:07:27,410 --> 00:07:31,010 Speaker 3: off the controls, and just let things be. This pause, 132 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:34,170 Speaker 3: Tera writes, gives us a possibility of a new choice. 133 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:37,650 Speaker 1: Now, sitting back isn't something that comes naturally to many 134 00:07:37,690 --> 00:07:39,930 Speaker 1: of us, so let's have a think about the ways 135 00:07:40,130 --> 00:07:42,650 Speaker 1: in which it could actually be the key to performing 136 00:07:42,690 --> 00:07:46,570 Speaker 1: better and feeling happier. I mean, I'm struck by some 137 00:07:46,610 --> 00:07:50,050 Speaker 1: of the caution detales that we've had over the years, 138 00:07:50,410 --> 00:07:54,330 Speaker 1: where doing nothing is in fact precisely the right thing 139 00:07:54,410 --> 00:07:58,250 Speaker 1: to do. There's one on the subject of masterly inactivity, 140 00:07:58,370 --> 00:08:02,770 Speaker 1: which features Helena bottom Krter as the formidable Lady Saale. 141 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:07,610 Speaker 1: In the disastrous British Army operations in Afghanistan in the 142 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:12,450 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, this idea of masterly inactivity was raised, and 143 00:08:12,490 --> 00:08:15,330 Speaker 1: it applied not just to maybe the British should never 144 00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:18,690 Speaker 1: have invade in Afghanistan, which I think with hindsight is obvious. 145 00:08:19,010 --> 00:08:23,290 Speaker 1: But also parenting, maybe we should do less parenting or medicine, 146 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:28,410 Speaker 1: maybe doctors should be doing less, prescribing fewer tests, prescribing 147 00:08:28,490 --> 00:08:33,090 Speaker 1: fewer treatments. Even soccer goalkeepers are too committed to being 148 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:35,970 Speaker 1: active when faced with a penalty was in fact, they'd 149 00:08:35,970 --> 00:08:37,450 Speaker 1: be better off if they stayed still. 150 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,290 Speaker 3: Wait, wait, Tim, as you know I'm an American on 151 00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:42,890 Speaker 3: behalf of my fellow Americans, can you just explain what 152 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:45,650 Speaker 3: this penalty kick example is in a little bit more detail. 153 00:08:46,010 --> 00:08:48,530 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, I understand that the joys of soccer 154 00:08:48,610 --> 00:08:52,810 Speaker 1: are finding American shaws these days, but maybe not this 155 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:56,290 Speaker 1: particular study. So some I think there were economists who 156 00:08:56,290 --> 00:09:01,570 Speaker 1: started that actually looked at what goalkeepers do when faced 157 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:04,930 Speaker 1: with a penalty kick. And basically, in the penalty kick, 158 00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:08,450 Speaker 1: the striker gets to try and put the ball in 159 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:10,970 Speaker 1: the net, and they can boot it to the left, 160 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:12,010 Speaker 1: or they can boot it to the right, or they 161 00:09:12,010 --> 00:09:14,650 Speaker 1: can bout it straight down the middle, and the goalkeeper 162 00:09:14,690 --> 00:09:18,490 Speaker 1: doesn't have much time to react. And so the standard 163 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:21,010 Speaker 1: procedure for a goalkeeper is just to guess it's fifty 164 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:24,650 Speaker 1: to fifty, just dive to the right or dive to 165 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:26,850 Speaker 1: the left, and you got a fifty percent chance of 166 00:09:26,890 --> 00:09:28,290 Speaker 1: going the right way. Even if you do go the 167 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,010 Speaker 1: right way, you might not save it. I mean, actually, 168 00:09:30,050 --> 00:09:33,570 Speaker 1: most penalties turn into goals. Usually the keeper isn't able 169 00:09:33,610 --> 00:09:35,610 Speaker 1: to save it, but there's a lot of pressure on 170 00:09:35,730 --> 00:09:38,970 Speaker 1: the keeper to try. So the goalkeeper will usually leap 171 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:40,650 Speaker 1: off to the left or the right. If they leap 172 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:42,450 Speaker 1: in the wrong direction, well you know, no one blames 173 00:09:42,490 --> 00:09:45,290 Speaker 1: them for that. But actually quite a lot of penalty 174 00:09:45,370 --> 00:09:49,290 Speaker 1: kicks go fairly close to where the goalkeeper originally was standing. 175 00:09:49,450 --> 00:09:51,890 Speaker 1: They go right down the center or near enough to 176 00:09:51,930 --> 00:09:55,410 Speaker 1: the center, and you can prove that if the goalkeeper 177 00:09:55,410 --> 00:09:58,050 Speaker 1: had not dived either way, they probably would have had 178 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:02,090 Speaker 1: a better chance of saving the penalty kick. They would 179 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:05,770 Speaker 1: also have looked ridiculous if the kick had gone far 180 00:10:05,850 --> 00:10:07,450 Speaker 1: to the left or far of the right, because they 181 00:10:07,450 --> 00:10:10,250 Speaker 1: would have looked like they weren't even try. And so 182 00:10:10,370 --> 00:10:13,850 Speaker 1: there's that pressure to act even when just waiting and 183 00:10:13,890 --> 00:10:16,090 Speaker 1: standing still would have been a better thing to do. 184 00:10:16,330 --> 00:10:18,450 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think it's something that's really hard for 185 00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:20,730 Speaker 3: our mind. I mean, take the medical case you mentioned. 186 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:24,610 Speaker 3: I've seen the importance of doing nothing in cases where 187 00:10:24,650 --> 00:10:27,730 Speaker 3: friends of mine who've had cancer have been advised, well, 188 00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:30,170 Speaker 3: rather than do some surgery or rather than do some chemo, 189 00:10:30,490 --> 00:10:33,290 Speaker 3: let's just watch and wait. I think this is what 190 00:10:33,330 --> 00:10:37,010 Speaker 3: doctors often call nonoperative management or active surveillance, which I 191 00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:39,210 Speaker 3: think is a funny term, this idea of active surveillance, 192 00:10:39,210 --> 00:10:41,130 Speaker 3: because it feels like there's nothing active about it. It's 193 00:10:41,170 --> 00:10:43,890 Speaker 3: complete inaction. You're just kind of sitting there waiting, and 194 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:45,850 Speaker 3: I think people don't like that. I mean, some studies, 195 00:10:45,930 --> 00:10:48,490 Speaker 3: especially for some cancer show that this can be really 196 00:10:48,890 --> 00:10:51,530 Speaker 3: helpful for dealing with a cancer. Right. Sometimes you go 197 00:10:51,610 --> 00:10:54,090 Speaker 3: through chemo and surgery, but there's a tumor that's going 198 00:10:54,130 --> 00:10:55,890 Speaker 3: to grow back anyway, and so it was just like 199 00:10:56,090 --> 00:10:58,330 Speaker 3: silly to take the risk of doing all that surgery 200 00:10:58,370 --> 00:11:01,050 Speaker 3: and chemo. But the idea of just sitting there and 201 00:11:01,130 --> 00:11:04,130 Speaker 3: like seeing what your tumor does, it's just an incredibly 202 00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:07,290 Speaker 3: scary situation for people who are facing it. People just 203 00:11:07,330 --> 00:11:10,370 Speaker 3: want to do something, even if it's futile, to feel 204 00:11:10,410 --> 00:11:12,730 Speaker 3: like they're taking some kind of action rather than doing nothing. 205 00:11:12,810 --> 00:11:16,970 Speaker 1: Which I suppose is why that word active is so important. 206 00:11:17,130 --> 00:11:20,370 Speaker 1: Active surveillance, so the idea that you are doing something 207 00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:24,410 Speaker 1: The challenge, of course, is to know whether active surveillance, 208 00:11:24,450 --> 00:11:26,650 Speaker 1: whatever it is, mastering and activity, to know whether doing 209 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:30,050 Speaker 1: nothing is the right thing, And for that you would 210 00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:33,770 Speaker 1: need some kind of statistical evidence base, you'd need some 211 00:11:33,850 --> 00:11:37,930 Speaker 1: kind of rigorous experiment. But I know doctors are quite 212 00:11:38,010 --> 00:11:41,850 Speaker 1: convinced that they are over prescribing too many tests, too 213 00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:44,770 Speaker 1: many treatments that are not necessary. And so the question 214 00:11:44,890 --> 00:11:47,330 Speaker 1: there is, well, why do they feel that that's the 215 00:11:47,410 --> 00:11:49,210 Speaker 1: right thing to do, or maybe they don't feel it's 216 00:11:49,210 --> 00:11:50,570 Speaker 1: the right thing to do, why do they do it? 217 00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:53,610 Speaker 1: And it is often a fear of being sued by 218 00:11:53,650 --> 00:11:55,930 Speaker 1: a patient, or simply just trying to get rid of 219 00:11:55,930 --> 00:11:58,450 Speaker 1: a patient who is pestering them and saying I want 220 00:11:58,490 --> 00:12:00,330 Speaker 1: you to do something, like okay, fine, you want me 221 00:12:00,370 --> 00:12:02,610 Speaker 1: to do something even though I shouldn't do anything. I'll 222 00:12:02,650 --> 00:12:05,090 Speaker 1: give you this drug or I'll prescribe this test and 223 00:12:05,130 --> 00:12:06,530 Speaker 1: that'll help you to go away. 224 00:12:06,650 --> 00:12:09,090 Speaker 3: So it seems like we'd all be much happier, maybe 225 00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:12,530 Speaker 3: even healthier, if we could figure out the importance of 226 00:12:12,570 --> 00:12:16,250 Speaker 3: sometimes doing nothing. But tim sometimes the best decision isn't 227 00:12:16,330 --> 00:12:19,050 Speaker 3: just to pause and do nothing. Sometimes the best thing 228 00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:22,250 Speaker 3: we can do is to actively take something away. But 229 00:12:22,370 --> 00:12:24,970 Speaker 3: it turns out this subtracting stuff seems to be even 230 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:27,610 Speaker 3: harder for our lying minds to deal with. It's something 231 00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:29,170 Speaker 3: that we're very, very bad at. 232 00:12:29,450 --> 00:12:32,210 Speaker 1: We are, indeed, and we'll learn more about that when 233 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:37,210 Speaker 1: this Cause Retail's Happiness Lab crossover episode returns after the break. 234 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:45,450 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Happiness Lab. 235 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:47,130 Speaker 1: And welcome back to Caution Retales. 236 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:49,650 Speaker 3: Wait, Tim, remind me do you usually introduce a second 237 00:12:49,810 --> 00:12:52,570 Speaker 3: historic story after the break in your episodes, because if 238 00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:54,970 Speaker 3: you do, I have yet another fun tale, one that's 239 00:12:55,010 --> 00:12:57,370 Speaker 3: not about the advantage of doing nothing, but about the 240 00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:58,730 Speaker 3: power of taking stuff away. 241 00:12:59,210 --> 00:13:01,690 Speaker 1: I'm going to stop you, Laurie, go for it. Go ahead, 242 00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:03,610 Speaker 1: how can I resist? Well? 243 00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:06,010 Speaker 3: Story number two doesn't take us as far back as 244 00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:08,970 Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, but it does involve a clever strategy 245 00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:11,370 Speaker 3: for operating yet another hard to deal with vehicle. 246 00:13:11,450 --> 00:13:16,770 Speaker 1: Ooh, let me guess. Hard to deal with vehicles combine harvesters, 247 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:20,210 Speaker 1: no giant robots that you get to sit on or 248 00:13:20,290 --> 00:13:21,050 Speaker 1: I don't know, tell me. 249 00:13:21,490 --> 00:13:24,610 Speaker 3: Actually the story involves a bike, like just a regular 250 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:25,130 Speaker 3: kids bike. 251 00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:27,930 Speaker 1: Oh okay, well, hopefully it's a good story. 252 00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:30,530 Speaker 3: Well, the story begins with a guy by the name 253 00:13:30,530 --> 00:13:33,370 Speaker 3: of Ryan McFarland. Ryan came from a long line of 254 00:13:33,370 --> 00:13:36,810 Speaker 3: motorsports junkies. His grandfather was a race car engineer, and 255 00:13:36,890 --> 00:13:40,130 Speaker 3: Daddy McFarland ran a motorcycle shop. All this meant that 256 00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:42,810 Speaker 3: Ryan spent his childhood having fun with all kinds of 257 00:13:42,890 --> 00:13:46,050 Speaker 3: dangerous wheeled vehicles. He rode dirt bikes and played in 258 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:49,810 Speaker 3: go karts and race stock cars. Ryan was eventually able 259 00:13:49,850 --> 00:13:52,450 Speaker 3: to translate his love for all things wheels into a 260 00:13:52,450 --> 00:13:56,010 Speaker 3: profitable engineering career. He made a name for himself patenting 261 00:13:56,050 --> 00:13:59,450 Speaker 3: both a better bike seat and a new wheelchair suspension system. 262 00:14:00,050 --> 00:14:02,850 Speaker 3: So you could imagine Ryan's delight when he finally became 263 00:14:02,890 --> 00:14:05,850 Speaker 3: a dad himself. Pretty much as soon as his son 264 00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:08,250 Speaker 3: Body was out of the womb, Ryan was ready to 265 00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:10,210 Speaker 3: pass on the far In family. 266 00:14:09,930 --> 00:14:10,570 Speaker 2: Love of wheels. 267 00:14:11,010 --> 00:14:13,530 Speaker 3: Body was two when he got his first cycle, but 268 00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:16,890 Speaker 3: riding a bike Ryan quickly realized is kind of hard 269 00:14:16,930 --> 00:14:20,410 Speaker 3: for a toddler. Ryan was passionate about getting Body on 270 00:14:20,410 --> 00:14:23,330 Speaker 3: two wheels as soon as possible, so he spent thousands 271 00:14:23,330 --> 00:14:27,570 Speaker 3: of dollars buying Body the usual learner vehicles toddler tricycles, 272 00:14:27,770 --> 00:14:31,170 Speaker 3: trainer bikes, even a training wheel equipped motorcycle. 273 00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:35,770 Speaker 1: Oh wait, a training wheel equipped motorcycle. You're trying to 274 00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:38,130 Speaker 1: convince me that that is a typical learner vehicle. I'm 275 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:40,490 Speaker 1: not buying it. That seemed like a terrible idea for 276 00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:41,050 Speaker 1: a two year old. 277 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:44,490 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was tim Basically, nothing Ryan bought worked, 278 00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:46,530 Speaker 3: Plus none of them were all that good at teaching 279 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:48,890 Speaker 3: a little kid the most important part of riding a bike, 280 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:51,610 Speaker 3: which is the art of balancing it. You can't learn 281 00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:53,850 Speaker 3: to equalize your weight on a bike with training wheels 282 00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:56,250 Speaker 3: because the wheels wind up doing all the balancing work. 283 00:14:56,610 --> 00:14:59,250 Speaker 3: And so Ryan decided to engineer a new kind of bike, 284 00:14:59,690 --> 00:15:02,410 Speaker 3: one that even a toddler like body could learn to balance. 285 00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:03,490 Speaker 1: And how did you do that? 286 00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:05,090 Speaker 2: Well, his solution was. 287 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:07,730 Speaker 3: To start with a typical bike, but rather than adding 288 00:15:07,770 --> 00:15:10,370 Speaker 3: something new to the bike's design, he chose to take 289 00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:14,530 Speaker 3: something away. He got rid of the pedals. Ryan was 290 00:15:14,570 --> 00:15:16,930 Speaker 3: the first to design what's now known as a strider 291 00:15:17,050 --> 00:15:20,010 Speaker 3: or balance bike. Kids can easily get the bike moving 292 00:15:20,170 --> 00:15:22,530 Speaker 3: just by pushing their feet on the ground, kind of 293 00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:26,090 Speaker 3: like Fred Flintstone style, and without pedals to worry about. 294 00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:28,410 Speaker 3: Even a two year old could ride it on the 295 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:31,010 Speaker 3: strider body was able to learn to steer and balance 296 00:15:31,410 --> 00:15:33,450 Speaker 3: all the stuff he'd need when he graduated to a 297 00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:37,210 Speaker 3: real bike or I guess the motorcycle. Ryan was able 298 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:39,570 Speaker 3: to turn his idea not just into a tory for body, 299 00:15:40,050 --> 00:15:42,930 Speaker 3: his balance bike turned into a global company which has 300 00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:45,930 Speaker 3: now sold millions of pedalist bikes in less than a decade. 301 00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:50,410 Speaker 1: I love this, Laurie, and as somebody who's written about 302 00:15:50,410 --> 00:15:53,490 Speaker 1: the history of technology, I feel obliged to point out 303 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,810 Speaker 1: that this is what bikes were originally like. They were 304 00:15:57,450 --> 00:16:01,970 Speaker 1: sometimes called hobby horses. Oh, the Germans had, I think 305 00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:04,690 Speaker 1: the Louf machine. I forget exactly what it was. The 306 00:16:05,010 --> 00:16:07,530 Speaker 1: Dandy horse was another thing they were called. The bikes 307 00:16:07,690 --> 00:16:10,090 Speaker 1: originally didn't have pedals because the whole idea of pedaling 308 00:16:10,290 --> 00:16:13,610 Speaker 1: you needed gears. He needed a chain. It was too difficult. 309 00:16:13,890 --> 00:16:16,490 Speaker 1: And so we had bikes like this all along, and 310 00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:19,810 Speaker 1: then somehow we forgot them, and then Ryan reinvented them 311 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:23,450 Speaker 1: for toddlers, which is brilliant. But I'm curious, why did 312 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:24,650 Speaker 1: you want to tell me the story what's going to 313 00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:25,250 Speaker 1: do with happiness? 314 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:27,250 Speaker 3: Well, the real reason I wanted to mention Ryan's story 315 00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:29,810 Speaker 3: is it involves a practice that's super good for our happiness, 316 00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:31,930 Speaker 3: but also one that's really hard for our minds to do. 317 00:16:32,570 --> 00:16:35,410 Speaker 3: To get his design right, Ryan had to take something away. 318 00:16:35,770 --> 00:16:38,530 Speaker 3: He had to subtract the pedals, and the research has 319 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:41,290 Speaker 3: shown that subtracting stuff is much harder than we think. 320 00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:44,530 Speaker 3: I first learned about Ryan's project in this book by 321 00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:47,290 Speaker 3: Lydie Klotz. He's a professor of engineering at the University 322 00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:50,450 Speaker 3: of Virginia. He's written this awesome book called Subtract The 323 00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:53,730 Speaker 3: Untapped Science of Less. But he does all these experiments 324 00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:55,850 Speaker 3: where he shows just how hard it is for adults 325 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:58,690 Speaker 3: to figure out how to solve a problem that requires 326 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:01,130 Speaker 3: taking something away. He does these fun studies with his 327 00:17:01,170 --> 00:17:04,050 Speaker 3: college students where he shows them this kind of lego 328 00:17:04,170 --> 00:17:06,450 Speaker 3: bridge type thing that's sort of uneven. 329 00:17:06,570 --> 00:17:08,730 Speaker 2: It's kind of about to collapse because it's got. 330 00:17:08,570 --> 00:17:11,970 Speaker 3: One leg in the wrong spot, and he asks subjects 331 00:17:12,010 --> 00:17:14,890 Speaker 3: do something to make this structure a little bit more stable. 332 00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:18,090 Speaker 3: And so subjects have two choices. They could add a 333 00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:21,330 Speaker 3: bunch of new blocks so that this structure becomes more stable, 334 00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:23,850 Speaker 3: or they could just take away the one stupid block 335 00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:26,010 Speaker 3: that's extra on one side and so then all of 336 00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:28,330 Speaker 3: a sudden the thing would balance better. And what he 337 00:17:28,370 --> 00:17:31,170 Speaker 3: finds is that even if you suggest to subjects like hey, 338 00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:34,370 Speaker 3: it's also possible to take stuff away, subjects have a 339 00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:37,170 Speaker 3: really hard time with this. They're much more likely to 340 00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:39,410 Speaker 3: add a bunch of stuff, which takes them more time 341 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:41,970 Speaker 3: than just to take one thing away. Lidy found that 342 00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:44,650 Speaker 3: subjects even still do this when you charge for the 343 00:17:44,690 --> 00:17:46,930 Speaker 3: amount of blocks they're going to use. So subjects now 344 00:17:46,970 --> 00:17:49,010 Speaker 3: have to pay ten cents for every extra block they 345 00:17:49,090 --> 00:17:51,290 Speaker 3: put on, and it's still really hard for them to 346 00:17:51,290 --> 00:17:53,050 Speaker 3: figure out that they have to take some stuff away 347 00:17:53,090 --> 00:17:53,970 Speaker 3: to make this work best. 348 00:17:54,170 --> 00:17:59,010 Speaker 1: I had the privilege of interviewing Lidi for the Financial Times. 349 00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:01,970 Speaker 1: I read his book and I found it really fascinating. 350 00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:06,170 Speaker 1: And when I first saw the work on Legos, originally 351 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:08,490 Speaker 1: the whole idea was sparked because he noticed that his 352 00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:12,290 Speaker 1: son just naturally pulled away the extra block. So his 353 00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:14,450 Speaker 1: son didn't seem to have a problem subtracting, but it 354 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:16,970 Speaker 1: didn't occur to him to subtract. When I first thought, 355 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:19,370 Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, well, I mean, you know, I like Lego, 356 00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:23,850 Speaker 1: that's great, but is this really of practical significance. But 357 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:27,330 Speaker 1: then some of the other experiments that Lady had been 358 00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:32,050 Speaker 1: doing with his coauthors were I think much more obviously 359 00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:34,930 Speaker 1: relevant to day to day life. For example, one of 360 00:18:34,970 --> 00:18:37,570 Speaker 1: the ones he did was he got people to suggest 361 00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:40,210 Speaker 1: improvements to a recipe for soup. Here's a recipe for soup. 362 00:18:40,570 --> 00:18:44,010 Speaker 1: How do you make it better? And people would always suggest, oh, well, 363 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:47,170 Speaker 1: you could add some cream or garlic or salt or whatever. 364 00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:51,530 Speaker 1: They're suggest adding steps or adding ingredients, and very few 365 00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:54,410 Speaker 1: people said, no, you need to take away this ingredient 366 00:18:54,410 --> 00:18:56,730 Speaker 1: because it's going to swamp everything else. There seems to 367 00:18:56,730 --> 00:19:00,650 Speaker 1: be this inbuilt bias. And even when he suggested cases 368 00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:04,490 Speaker 1: where it was absolutely obvious that you should take something away, 369 00:19:04,610 --> 00:19:08,290 Speaker 1: people didn't. So for example, in one experiment, they showed 370 00:19:08,410 --> 00:19:11,570 Speaker 1: people and itinerary for a day in Washington, d C. 371 00:19:12,450 --> 00:19:14,450 Speaker 1: I used to live in DC. It's a lovely city. 372 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,450 Speaker 1: There's loads to do, but this itinery was crazy. I 373 00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:20,170 Speaker 1: think they had twenty four different stops and they would 374 00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:23,370 Speaker 1: basically be going to a Library of Congress, twenty minutes there, 375 00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:26,450 Speaker 1: get back in the coach down the mall to a museum, 376 00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,410 Speaker 1: twenty minutes in the museum, get back in the coach, 377 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:30,250 Speaker 1: take you somewhere else, and you just go all over 378 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:33,050 Speaker 1: DC and try and see everything. And it was clearly insane. 379 00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:36,530 Speaker 1: And they were given this itinery and told, okay, how 380 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:38,930 Speaker 1: do you make it better? And the obvious answer is 381 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:41,610 Speaker 1: take out some of the stops, give everything some room 382 00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:44,650 Speaker 1: to breathe, less time driving from one place to another, 383 00:19:45,090 --> 00:19:49,170 Speaker 1: more time actually enjoying what you're seeing. And people just 384 00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:52,810 Speaker 1: didn't do it. They would rearrange the order of engagements, 385 00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:54,970 Speaker 1: they'd maybe try to make things a bit more efficient 386 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:57,890 Speaker 1: or more logical, but they did not remove stuff, even 387 00:19:57,890 --> 00:20:00,770 Speaker 1: when it was clear that everything was just too much 388 00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:03,130 Speaker 1: and subtraction was the only answer. So this seems to 389 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:05,810 Speaker 1: be really quite a deep bias in the way we think. 390 00:20:05,730 --> 00:20:08,010 Speaker 3: And the travel example, I think shows just how much 391 00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:10,810 Speaker 3: it can affect our happy when we have too much stuff, 392 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:12,810 Speaker 3: when we don't realize the power of taking things away. 393 00:20:12,810 --> 00:20:15,810 Speaker 3: I've been on those vacations where it's like just too 394 00:20:15,850 --> 00:20:17,890 Speaker 3: many things, Just like, wait, if I just took out 395 00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:20,050 Speaker 3: one or two of these and I could just sleep 396 00:20:20,090 --> 00:20:22,410 Speaker 3: in an extra hour, I could just take a moment 397 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:24,850 Speaker 3: to rest, I'd feel so much better. But it's not 398 00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:27,370 Speaker 3: just like ephemeral things like travel plans where we mess 399 00:20:27,410 --> 00:20:29,210 Speaker 3: this up. We also mess this up with the literal 400 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:31,290 Speaker 3: stuff that's inside our houses. And Tim, I know this 401 00:20:31,330 --> 00:20:33,370 Speaker 3: is something that you've actually written a book on the 402 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:36,730 Speaker 3: kind of striking way that our materialism is problematic for us, 403 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:39,090 Speaker 3: and sometimes we don't subtract enough of our own stuff. 404 00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:42,010 Speaker 1: Yeah. I got involved in this by accident. So I 405 00:20:42,050 --> 00:20:45,370 Speaker 1: wrote a book a few years ago called Messy, and 406 00:20:45,730 --> 00:20:49,090 Speaker 1: it's kind of a messy book. It's about improvisation and 407 00:20:49,370 --> 00:20:54,930 Speaker 1: jazz and filing cabinets and conversations and all kinds of things. 408 00:20:54,930 --> 00:20:57,930 Speaker 1: It's sort of a messy book, and in many ways 409 00:20:57,970 --> 00:21:00,770 Speaker 1: it's the book I'm most proud of. But when I 410 00:21:00,850 --> 00:21:04,490 Speaker 1: published this book around about the same time, Mary Condo's book, 411 00:21:04,570 --> 00:21:07,570 Speaker 1: The Life Changing Magic of Tidying was also out and 412 00:21:07,690 --> 00:21:10,410 Speaker 1: was a huge bestseller, And so people were always asking 413 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:13,290 Speaker 1: me to talk about, you know, the contrast between my 414 00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:16,010 Speaker 1: book and Mary Condo's book, because I'm for mess and 415 00:21:16,050 --> 00:21:19,530 Speaker 1: she's for tidy, and you know, and actually I kept saying, 416 00:21:19,570 --> 00:21:22,170 Speaker 1: I don't think I mean, I loved her book. Actually, 417 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,770 Speaker 1: I don't think there's as much of a difference as 418 00:21:24,810 --> 00:21:28,290 Speaker 1: you might think, because really the point that she made 419 00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:31,730 Speaker 1: in the Life Changing Magic of Tidying is you can't 420 00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:35,330 Speaker 1: organize your way out of too much. You could only 421 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,210 Speaker 1: subtract your way out of too much. You have to 422 00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:40,490 Speaker 1: get rid of stuff. So, in fact, her book is 423 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:43,570 Speaker 1: not really about tidying. Her book is about minimalism. Her 424 00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:46,250 Speaker 1: book is about subtraction. And I've got absolutely no problem 425 00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:49,370 Speaker 1: with that. Sometimes you need that space. And I was 426 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:54,210 Speaker 1: similarly skeptical about organizational systems. I don't think organizational systems 427 00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:57,250 Speaker 1: solve the fundamental problem of too much stuff going on. 428 00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:59,770 Speaker 1: But yet we fool ourselves into thinking that, you know, 429 00:21:59,850 --> 00:22:02,730 Speaker 1: if only we did have the right hacks, if only 430 00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:04,530 Speaker 1: we had the file effacts, or if only we had 431 00:22:04,530 --> 00:22:06,890 Speaker 1: the right software, then we could solve all the problems 432 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:10,490 Speaker 1: in our lives by just getting organized. And sometimes, no, 433 00:22:10,770 --> 00:22:12,890 Speaker 1: there's twenty four hours in a day, there's only so 434 00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:15,930 Speaker 1: many rooms in your house, that there's only so much time, 435 00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:19,250 Speaker 1: there's only so much space. And I think a really 436 00:22:19,290 --> 00:22:23,610 Speaker 1: fundamental insight of economics, and people don't think of economics 437 00:22:23,610 --> 00:22:25,970 Speaker 1: as offering wisdom for day to day life, but I 438 00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:29,410 Speaker 1: think it does really fundamental insight and economics is everything 439 00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:32,610 Speaker 1: has an opportunity cost. And what that means is everything 440 00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:36,730 Speaker 1: you do, everything you buy, every hour you spend is 441 00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:39,210 Speaker 1: getting in the way of something else. It's something else 442 00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:41,650 Speaker 1: you can't do. It's some other way you can't spend 443 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:44,170 Speaker 1: that hour, it's some other thing that you can't afford 444 00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:46,530 Speaker 1: to buy because you bought that first thing. And when 445 00:22:46,570 --> 00:22:48,930 Speaker 1: you see everything as potentially getting in the way of 446 00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:52,770 Speaker 1: everything else, you start to realize, as Ldi Klott says, 447 00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:56,450 Speaker 1: not only should you be subtracting the bad stuff, sometimes 448 00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:59,250 Speaker 1: you have to subtract the good stuff as well, because 449 00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:03,010 Speaker 1: subtracting the good stuff makes space for more good stuff 450 00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:05,290 Speaker 1: and to enjoy the good stuff that you have. 451 00:23:06,130 --> 00:23:08,490 Speaker 3: I think this is so important for myself in so 452 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:11,050 Speaker 3: many different way. But this is also something that I've 453 00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:12,970 Speaker 3: seen in my students. 454 00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:13,210 Speaker 1: Right. 455 00:23:13,250 --> 00:23:16,010 Speaker 3: They have these college students today have these such like 456 00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:19,330 Speaker 3: over subscribed schedules, like they just never have time to 457 00:23:19,370 --> 00:23:21,370 Speaker 3: do anything. And I think that's because they grew up 458 00:23:21,370 --> 00:23:24,290 Speaker 3: in generation where parents gave them so much to do 459 00:23:24,410 --> 00:23:26,690 Speaker 3: that they got used to not ever having time to 460 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:29,130 Speaker 3: do stuff. I know you've talked a little bit about 461 00:23:29,170 --> 00:23:31,570 Speaker 3: helicopter parenting. This is something that we talk a lot 462 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:34,530 Speaker 3: about on the show. But one way to describe helicopter 463 00:23:34,610 --> 00:23:37,930 Speaker 3: parenting is the problem of not subtracting enough. Right, you 464 00:23:38,330 --> 00:23:41,250 Speaker 3: want your kids to, you know, learn how to play soccer, 465 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:43,410 Speaker 3: and you want your kids to get piano lessons, and 466 00:23:43,450 --> 00:23:45,250 Speaker 3: you definitely need them to get a math tutor and 467 00:23:45,290 --> 00:23:47,730 Speaker 3: an SAT tutor and all these things, and so you 468 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:50,130 Speaker 3: pack as kids schedule to the point that they have 469 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:52,490 Speaker 3: no time for rest, no time for play, no time 470 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:54,610 Speaker 3: for being social with kids their age. And the right 471 00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:57,930 Speaker 3: solution isn't to give them more tutoring, it's to just 472 00:23:57,970 --> 00:24:01,570 Speaker 3: subtract stuff. I think what happens is that parents have kids' 473 00:24:01,570 --> 00:24:04,650 Speaker 3: schedules that are just really oversubscribed, and then they get 474 00:24:04,650 --> 00:24:06,410 Speaker 3: worried of like, oh, well, he doesn't have time for play, 475 00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:08,570 Speaker 3: he doesn't have time for friends. So I'll just add 476 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:11,050 Speaker 3: in a play now, squeeze that into all the other 477 00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:13,970 Speaker 3: stuff that kids have to do. But this overscheduling, the 478 00:24:14,010 --> 00:24:17,690 Speaker 3: research shows, makes kids like way more anxious. Anxiety disorders 479 00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:20,690 Speaker 3: are going up. Kids will sometimes report sometimes like you know, 480 00:24:20,690 --> 00:24:22,730 Speaker 3: we very busy adults do, that they have no time, 481 00:24:22,770 --> 00:24:25,450 Speaker 3: that they feel overwhelmed by their schedule, when it also 482 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:29,050 Speaker 3: feels like everyone would just be much happier and probably 483 00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:32,250 Speaker 3: everybody would perform more successfully if we could just take 484 00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:34,170 Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff out of kids' schedules. 485 00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:37,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think an important thing to underline We 486 00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:38,930 Speaker 1: kind of already said it, but let's say it again 487 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:42,690 Speaker 1: because we're adding, not subtracting as I always do, is 488 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:45,330 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with any of this stuff. There's nothing 489 00:24:45,370 --> 00:24:47,370 Speaker 1: wrong with having a masthitude. There's nothing wrong with learning 490 00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:50,290 Speaker 1: an instrument, there's nothing wrong with with learning a sport. 491 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:55,130 Speaker 1: It's all good. It's just there's a limit. And sometimes 492 00:24:55,290 --> 00:24:57,450 Speaker 1: we like to tell ourselves, oh, if we just get 493 00:24:57,490 --> 00:24:59,730 Speaker 1: rid of all the wasted time, we get rid of 494 00:24:59,770 --> 00:25:02,690 Speaker 1: all the bad stuff, then we'll have time to focus 495 00:25:02,770 --> 00:25:05,290 Speaker 1: on what really matters. But actually know, sometimes you have 496 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:07,050 Speaker 1: to get rid of stuff that you really do want 497 00:25:07,050 --> 00:25:09,450 Speaker 1: to do, the stuff that is worth doing, because you 498 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:12,330 Speaker 1: can't do everything, and it's painful to face up to that. 499 00:25:13,370 --> 00:25:15,930 Speaker 3: So the question is why don't we follow this idea 500 00:25:16,370 --> 00:25:18,530 Speaker 3: of less is more? Why is it something that's so 501 00:25:18,570 --> 00:25:20,730 Speaker 3: hard for our minds. We'll learn some ways that we 502 00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:23,530 Speaker 3: can all do this better. When the Cautionary Tales Happiness 503 00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:30,970 Speaker 3: Lab crossover gets back from the break, Welcome back to 504 00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:35,290 Speaker 3: the Cautionary Tales Happiness Lab crossover. So, Tim, before we left, 505 00:25:35,330 --> 00:25:38,170 Speaker 3: we were talking about ways that we can make subtraction 506 00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:41,290 Speaker 3: a little bit more obvious for our lying minds. And 507 00:25:41,370 --> 00:25:44,850 Speaker 3: one of the ways that occurs is when sadly there's 508 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:47,530 Speaker 3: nothing we can do but subtract. I know these are 509 00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:50,330 Speaker 3: cases that you've talked about on Cautionary Tales before, So 510 00:25:50,370 --> 00:25:52,970 Speaker 3: maybe share one of these stories where people can actually subtract, 511 00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:55,210 Speaker 3: but only when they're kind of forced into a corner 512 00:25:55,210 --> 00:25:55,730 Speaker 3: and they have to. 513 00:25:56,010 --> 00:26:00,490 Speaker 1: Yes. The example that has haunted me ever since I 514 00:26:00,530 --> 00:26:06,210 Speaker 1: heard it was Keith Jarrett, the great jazz pianist, and 515 00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:10,010 Speaker 1: his attempt to play a solo piano concert in the 516 00:26:10,010 --> 00:26:14,370 Speaker 1: great German city of Cologne. And that particular concert, it 517 00:26:14,410 --> 00:26:16,890 Speaker 1: was the largest concert that Jarrett had ever played solo. 518 00:26:17,010 --> 00:26:18,410 Speaker 1: He was still quite a young man, I think he 519 00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:21,050 Speaker 1: was still in his twenties. There was a mix up 520 00:26:21,250 --> 00:26:23,690 Speaker 1: at the opera house. The promoter was very young, she 521 00:26:23,770 --> 00:26:27,050 Speaker 1: was a teenage girl called Vera Branders, and she or 522 00:26:27,090 --> 00:26:30,290 Speaker 1: the opera house between them, had not got a good 523 00:26:30,290 --> 00:26:34,250 Speaker 1: piano on stage for Keith. He'd requested a particular piano 524 00:26:34,370 --> 00:26:38,010 Speaker 1: Bozendor for Imperial. He's a real perfectionist. And instead they 525 00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:40,090 Speaker 1: looked around for a bozen Door for piano, and they'd 526 00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:43,570 Speaker 1: found this beaten up rehearsal model, not a proper grand piano. 527 00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:46,570 Speaker 1: It's not big enough, but also in really bad condition, 528 00:26:46,890 --> 00:26:50,970 Speaker 1: out of tune, pedal sticking, all kinds of problems, and 529 00:26:51,490 --> 00:26:54,570 Speaker 1: Jarrett basically said, look, I can't play this. If you 530 00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:57,370 Speaker 1: can't get a new piano, I won't play, and he left. 531 00:26:57,850 --> 00:26:59,770 Speaker 1: But it turned out they couldn't get a new piano. 532 00:26:59,770 --> 00:27:05,050 Speaker 1: There wasn't enough time, and Jarrett eventually realized that if 533 00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:09,010 Speaker 1: he didn't play, then this poor girl who was promoting 534 00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:11,890 Speaker 1: basically her first concert was going to be torn apart 535 00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:14,690 Speaker 1: by this crowd of angry German jazz fans who would 536 00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:16,210 Speaker 1: show up for it was a late night concert at 537 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:18,570 Speaker 1: eleven thirty, probably had a few beers. They're going to 538 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:21,170 Speaker 1: show up at this concert and there'll be no concert. 539 00:27:21,170 --> 00:27:23,570 Speaker 1: There'll be no Keith Jarrett. So Jarrett decided, Okay, I 540 00:27:23,650 --> 00:27:25,370 Speaker 1: have to do it. I have to play this thing. 541 00:27:25,690 --> 00:27:27,890 Speaker 1: And so he walks out on stage in front of 542 00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:32,490 Speaker 1: this packed auditorium fourteen hundred people, sits down to play 543 00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:36,210 Speaker 1: this piano that he knows is unplayable, and it is 544 00:27:36,290 --> 00:27:38,890 Speaker 1: the concert of a lifetime. It is his most successful 545 00:27:38,970 --> 00:27:43,410 Speaker 1: ever recording. And because of the manifest limitations of the piano, 546 00:27:43,530 --> 00:27:47,010 Speaker 1: he was forced into playing what was basically a much 547 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:51,610 Speaker 1: simpler melody, a much simpler approach to improvised jazz than 548 00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:54,450 Speaker 1: he would normally use. He was using a restricted number 549 00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:57,210 Speaker 1: of keys, he was avoiding certain areas of the keyboard, 550 00:27:57,370 --> 00:28:00,050 Speaker 1: he was keeping it quite simple and rhythmic. The point 551 00:28:00,210 --> 00:28:03,130 Speaker 1: is he could have done that on any piano, and 552 00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:05,650 Speaker 1: yet he didn't because it never occurred to him. You know, 553 00:28:05,730 --> 00:28:07,850 Speaker 1: he always wanted to use the full range of what 554 00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:10,410 Speaker 1: was available, and it was only when all of those 555 00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:14,250 Speaker 1: options were cut off and he was absolutely backed into 556 00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:18,090 Speaker 1: this corner that he discovered this simple style, which continues 557 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:21,490 Speaker 1: to be his most loved work. And I think that's 558 00:28:21,610 --> 00:28:25,090 Speaker 1: just an insight into the way that we don't do 559 00:28:25,130 --> 00:28:27,490 Speaker 1: it unless we're forced to. We often need this disruption, 560 00:28:27,610 --> 00:28:30,410 Speaker 1: we need this problem to occur before we find a 561 00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:33,410 Speaker 1: new solution, a new way of solving our problems. And 562 00:28:33,450 --> 00:28:35,610 Speaker 1: that new solution, in this case and in many cases, 563 00:28:35,730 --> 00:28:38,850 Speaker 1: actually involves doing less than we've done before. 564 00:28:39,050 --> 00:28:40,770 Speaker 3: And I think this is one of the strategies that 565 00:28:40,890 --> 00:28:43,410 Speaker 3: Lighty Klatts mentions in his book right, which is to 566 00:28:43,490 --> 00:28:46,450 Speaker 3: pretend that you're forced into this, like he suggests in 567 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:48,810 Speaker 3: a business meeting, and when you're trying to figure out 568 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:52,130 Speaker 3: some problem, to just have somebody on the team say, Okay, 569 00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:54,370 Speaker 3: what if we were forced to take something away? What 570 00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:56,570 Speaker 3: if we were unable to add something and we just 571 00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:57,730 Speaker 3: had to take something out? 572 00:28:57,730 --> 00:28:58,810 Speaker 2: What would we take out? 573 00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:01,730 Speaker 3: Right, that kind of thought exercise winds up putting you 574 00:29:01,770 --> 00:29:05,170 Speaker 3: in the simulated situation where maybe you can't add anything else, 575 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:06,250 Speaker 3: you've got to take something away. 576 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:08,330 Speaker 2: What would be the one thing you take away? And 577 00:29:08,370 --> 00:29:09,050 Speaker 2: the experiment sage. 578 00:29:09,250 --> 00:29:11,010 Speaker 3: While it doesn't come to our mind naturally, when you 579 00:29:11,130 --> 00:29:12,810 Speaker 3: kind of strong arm people and say no, no, no, 580 00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:14,410 Speaker 3: you have to pick something to take away, what would 581 00:29:14,450 --> 00:29:16,650 Speaker 3: that be, all of a sudden, the strategies can start 582 00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:18,970 Speaker 3: seeming a little bit more obvious. So that's kind of 583 00:29:18,970 --> 00:29:21,290 Speaker 3: one of my favorite ones, is to ask this question, Okay, 584 00:29:21,290 --> 00:29:23,770 Speaker 3: if I was forced to take one thing away, what 585 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:26,970 Speaker 3: would that be. It's helped me in my schedule immensely, 586 00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:29,410 Speaker 3: right where I'm looking at the month ahead and I'm like, 587 00:29:29,570 --> 00:29:31,690 Speaker 3: there are just too many trips, like I just can't 588 00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:34,250 Speaker 3: fit all this travel in. Sometimes I ask myself, Okay, 589 00:29:34,250 --> 00:29:36,330 Speaker 3: if I had to take one away, like if you know, 590 00:29:36,410 --> 00:29:38,290 Speaker 3: I don't know, some huge deity came down and was like, no, 591 00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:40,730 Speaker 3: your's this kind of schedule monster, like you have to 592 00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:42,130 Speaker 3: take one thing out of there. What would it be? 593 00:29:42,610 --> 00:29:44,730 Speaker 3: Usually I have an obvious answer. I'm like, well, I 594 00:29:44,730 --> 00:29:46,330 Speaker 3: didn't want to do that trip. That's the one that's 595 00:29:46,410 --> 00:29:48,650 Speaker 3: kind of least interesting to me, or maybe the least valuable. 596 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:50,650 Speaker 3: And that can kind of force you to realize like, 597 00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:52,450 Speaker 3: oh wait, maybe I can just take that one out. 598 00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:54,570 Speaker 3: You don't need the mean schedule monster to show up 599 00:29:54,610 --> 00:29:56,090 Speaker 3: to kind of force you to take something out. 600 00:29:56,130 --> 00:29:57,850 Speaker 2: You can make that decision for yourself. 601 00:29:58,170 --> 00:30:03,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it reminds me we often see politicians saying, oh, 602 00:30:03,090 --> 00:30:05,610 Speaker 1: we're going to have a rule that if you introduce 603 00:30:05,890 --> 00:30:08,970 Speaker 1: some new regulation, you're not allowed to do that unless 604 00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:11,530 Speaker 1: you cancel an old regulation, a kind of one in 605 00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:14,090 Speaker 1: one out, or sometimes it's one in two out. You 606 00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:16,330 Speaker 1: have to cancel more regulations than you had, and to 607 00:30:16,370 --> 00:30:19,690 Speaker 1: some extent it's a bit silly. I used to long, long, long, 608 00:30:19,730 --> 00:30:22,170 Speaker 1: long time ago. I used to work in regulatory reform 609 00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:23,970 Speaker 1: at the World Bank, and we used to try to 610 00:30:24,010 --> 00:30:27,330 Speaker 1: measure the burden of different business regulations around the world. 611 00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:30,570 Speaker 1: Fascinating work, and we try to be quite sophisticated and 612 00:30:30,650 --> 00:30:34,370 Speaker 1: try to produce all these comparisons. So one country could say, well, 613 00:30:34,370 --> 00:30:36,210 Speaker 1: this is the regulations for setting up a business in 614 00:30:36,530 --> 00:30:39,570 Speaker 1: this country. But if you're an entrepreneur in the neighboring country, 615 00:30:39,730 --> 00:30:42,210 Speaker 1: it doesn't take you a year to set up a business. 616 00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:45,330 Speaker 1: It takes you seven days. So why is that? What 617 00:30:45,410 --> 00:30:47,810 Speaker 1: are the stages that take so long in one country 618 00:30:47,850 --> 00:30:51,210 Speaker 1: and that don't exist in another country. That's really insightful, 619 00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:54,210 Speaker 1: I think, and informative. But sometimes just that simple rule 620 00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:57,130 Speaker 1: is hey, you've got to remove a regulation, figure out 621 00:30:57,170 --> 00:30:59,890 Speaker 1: what it is. Sometimes that's enough that'll do the job. 622 00:31:00,410 --> 00:31:02,530 Speaker 3: Another thing that does the job is really trying to 623 00:31:02,690 --> 00:31:05,490 Speaker 3: harness your inner economists and to really think about what 624 00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:08,890 Speaker 3: those active opportunity costs are like, to really be mindful 625 00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:10,930 Speaker 3: of the other kinds of things you could be doing 626 00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:13,290 Speaker 3: if you were able to subtract something. And one of 627 00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:15,690 Speaker 3: my favorite strategies for that I first learned about in 628 00:31:15,970 --> 00:31:19,490 Speaker 3: Hal Hirschfeld's great book About Our Time biases. He talks 629 00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:22,290 Speaker 3: about what economists and psychologists have referred to as the 630 00:31:22,490 --> 00:31:24,810 Speaker 3: yes damn effect and how to deal with it. And 631 00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:26,810 Speaker 3: so the yes damn effect is probably something that will 632 00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:29,770 Speaker 3: be familiar to many of our listeners. Somebody says, hey 633 00:31:29,810 --> 00:31:31,850 Speaker 3: do you want to do this presentation? Or Hey do 634 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:33,610 Speaker 3: you want to go to this kind of not very 635 00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:36,210 Speaker 3: interesting dinner party, or hey do you want to sign 636 00:31:36,330 --> 00:31:39,010 Speaker 3: up something in your schedule? And you feel kind of bad, 637 00:31:39,050 --> 00:31:42,090 Speaker 3: so you're like yes. Then weeks later that project or 638 00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:45,170 Speaker 3: that dinner party comes up, and that's where you say damn. 639 00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:47,130 Speaker 2: And so that's the yes damn effect. 640 00:31:47,170 --> 00:31:49,850 Speaker 3: You say yes to something, time passes and then you 641 00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:51,890 Speaker 3: see it in your calendar and you're like, damn. 642 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:53,330 Speaker 2: So how do we deal with this? 643 00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:56,650 Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean that's very familiar. I know that experience. 644 00:31:56,890 --> 00:31:58,010 Speaker 2: It's not unique to me. 645 00:31:58,250 --> 00:32:01,690 Speaker 1: Yeah. My general kind of heuristic is I should just 646 00:32:01,690 --> 00:32:03,810 Speaker 1: say no to more things than I think I should, 647 00:32:04,050 --> 00:32:06,330 Speaker 1: and over experience you learn it, but then you know 648 00:32:06,370 --> 00:32:09,410 Speaker 1: it's never entirely successful. So is there a te that 649 00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:11,890 Speaker 1: you'd recommend to get more out of this yes? 650 00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:15,450 Speaker 3: And the trick is what's known as the no yay effect, 651 00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:17,970 Speaker 3: or you kind of do the same thing, except you 652 00:32:18,010 --> 00:32:21,250 Speaker 3: start by saying no, and then you experience the consequences 653 00:32:21,330 --> 00:32:24,050 Speaker 3: later on of what that feels like. So let's kind 654 00:32:24,050 --> 00:32:25,690 Speaker 3: of play this out. Laurie, do you want to do 655 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:28,690 Speaker 3: some project? You know, to do this date? I say no, 656 00:32:29,010 --> 00:32:31,410 Speaker 3: definitely don't want to do that. But I don't stop there. 657 00:32:31,890 --> 00:32:34,250 Speaker 3: I record the fact that I was asked to do this, 658 00:32:34,490 --> 00:32:36,330 Speaker 3: and so I go to that date in my calendar 659 00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:38,090 Speaker 3: when that project I just said no to would have 660 00:32:38,130 --> 00:32:40,730 Speaker 3: been due, and I write in, Hey, Laura, you didn't 661 00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:42,890 Speaker 3: have to do the project this day. And then you 662 00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:45,170 Speaker 3: get to that date in the calendar and you realize, oh, 663 00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:47,490 Speaker 3: my gosh, my day would have been so much worse 664 00:32:47,570 --> 00:32:48,570 Speaker 3: if I had that huge. 665 00:32:48,450 --> 00:32:51,410 Speaker 2: Project to do. And then you have the experience of yay. 666 00:32:51,730 --> 00:32:53,130 Speaker 2: And so this is the no yea effect. 667 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:54,850 Speaker 3: And the reason I love it so much is it 668 00:32:54,890 --> 00:32:57,970 Speaker 3: gives you these kind of periodic reminders of the fact 669 00:32:57,970 --> 00:33:01,690 Speaker 3: that saying no had a reward, right, Like you are 670 00:33:01,810 --> 00:33:04,610 Speaker 3: training your brain to notice that no doesn't just kind 671 00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:06,650 Speaker 3: of feel yucky in the moment, because I hate saying 672 00:33:06,650 --> 00:33:08,570 Speaker 3: no to stuff. I don't like the feeling of like, oh, 673 00:33:09,130 --> 00:33:10,770 Speaker 3: and wanted me to do it. I feel kind of bad. 674 00:33:10,810 --> 00:33:13,450 Speaker 3: I feel kind of guilty. You're kind of giving yourself 675 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:16,770 Speaker 3: with the opposite emotional reaction when that date of the 676 00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:19,570 Speaker 3: thing finally comes up, where you get the moment to remember, 677 00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:21,730 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I just save myself this time. I'm 678 00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:24,210 Speaker 3: so kind of proud of myself unhappy. And so the 679 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:26,770 Speaker 3: no yay effect has been really powerful for me because 680 00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:29,570 Speaker 3: it's helped me like, remember how happy I am that 681 00:33:29,610 --> 00:33:31,330 Speaker 3: I didn't sign up for something at the first time. 682 00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:34,050 Speaker 1: I really like that, Laurie. It's very it's very clever. 683 00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:37,850 Speaker 1: I actually have an even simpler hack that I use 684 00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:40,930 Speaker 1: all the time. So this works if there's someone else 685 00:33:40,970 --> 00:33:44,690 Speaker 1: to whom you're accountable, if you have a spouse, for example. 686 00:33:45,050 --> 00:33:47,850 Speaker 1: And this just going back to that original insight about 687 00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:51,130 Speaker 1: opportunity cost, like everything you say yes to is getting 688 00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:54,090 Speaker 1: in the way of something else, and flip that around. 689 00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:56,930 Speaker 1: Everything you say no to every time you're invited to 690 00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:59,410 Speaker 1: some commitment, every time you say no to that, you're 691 00:33:59,450 --> 00:34:01,730 Speaker 1: saying yes to something else. So the way I phrase 692 00:34:01,810 --> 00:34:05,330 Speaker 1: it is if I say no to some trip, some dinner, 693 00:34:05,650 --> 00:34:08,650 Speaker 1: some commitment, if I say no to that, I'm also 694 00:34:08,650 --> 00:34:10,690 Speaker 1: saying yeah, yes to my family. I'm going to be 695 00:34:10,690 --> 00:34:12,210 Speaker 1: at home. I'm going to be spending time with my 696 00:34:12,210 --> 00:34:14,770 Speaker 1: wife and kids. But I don't just tell myself that. 697 00:34:15,050 --> 00:34:18,290 Speaker 1: I tell my wife that, and when I am replying 698 00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:21,290 Speaker 1: to the email, because it's always an email, when I'm 699 00:34:21,330 --> 00:34:24,770 Speaker 1: replying to the email saying this is really kind, but 700 00:34:24,810 --> 00:34:27,490 Speaker 1: I'm afraid I can't do it, I just blind copy 701 00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:30,290 Speaker 1: my wife and it's like a little note to her, 702 00:34:30,610 --> 00:34:32,290 Speaker 1: look at what I just said no to, because I'm 703 00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:34,570 Speaker 1: saying yes to you, And it just makes it much 704 00:34:34,610 --> 00:34:38,210 Speaker 1: more positive to me. Slightly fills my wife's inbox with 705 00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:42,290 Speaker 1: my refused invitations, but I think that overall she appreciates 706 00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:44,850 Speaker 1: that visibility into the decisions I'm having to make every 707 00:34:44,890 --> 00:34:46,970 Speaker 1: day and saying I'm not going to do this, I 708 00:34:47,010 --> 00:34:49,210 Speaker 1: have something more important waiting for me at home. 709 00:34:49,450 --> 00:34:51,970 Speaker 3: I bet that increases marital satisfaction in a bunch of 710 00:34:51,970 --> 00:34:52,490 Speaker 3: different ways. 711 00:34:52,530 --> 00:34:53,610 Speaker 2: I might have to do this. 712 00:34:53,650 --> 00:34:55,970 Speaker 3: My poor husband's inbox is going to implode with all 713 00:34:56,010 --> 00:34:57,250 Speaker 3: the things I'm saying no too. 714 00:34:58,210 --> 00:34:59,730 Speaker 2: But the cool thing is that there are these. 715 00:34:59,570 --> 00:35:02,050 Speaker 3: Ways that we can kind of bring subtraction to the forefront. 716 00:35:02,090 --> 00:35:04,170 Speaker 3: It doesn't come naturally, but like with a little bit 717 00:35:04,170 --> 00:35:07,050 Speaker 3: of extra work, scribbling things in the calendar, an extra 718 00:35:07,130 --> 00:35:10,330 Speaker 3: BCC on the email can kind of bring subtraction to 719 00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:12,890 Speaker 3: light and maybe that will make us a little bit happier. 720 00:35:13,450 --> 00:35:15,250 Speaker 2: Tim, thank you so much for joining me on the 721 00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:15,930 Speaker 2: Happiness Lab. 722 00:35:16,010 --> 00:35:18,330 Speaker 1: Well, it's been a pleasure, Laurie, thank you for joining 723 00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:21,850 Speaker 1: me on Cautionary Tales. Dr Lourie Santos, as you know, 724 00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:24,010 Speaker 1: is the host of The Happiness Lab. 725 00:35:23,970 --> 00:35:26,810 Speaker 3: And Tim Harford, as you know, host Cautionary Tales. Both 726 00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:29,850 Speaker 3: podcasts are productions of Pushkin Industries and are available wherever 727 00:35:29,890 --> 00:35:30,890 Speaker 3: you get your podcasts. 728 00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:34,290 Speaker 1: Now, this is the last of our planned crossover episodes, 729 00:35:34,330 --> 00:35:36,690 Speaker 1: but it isn't the final time that we're going to 730 00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:40,330 Speaker 1: be collaborating. On March the twentieth, Laurie and I are 731 00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:43,090 Speaker 1: going to be teaming up for a special show dedicated 732 00:35:43,210 --> 00:35:44,610 Speaker 1: to World Happiness Day. 733 00:35:44,770 --> 00:35:47,290 Speaker 3: Yes, Tim will be joining me for a chat alongside 734 00:35:47,290 --> 00:35:50,850 Speaker 3: our fellow Pushkin podcast hosts Maya Shunker and Malcolm Gladwell. 735 00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:53,330 Speaker 3: We we'll all be considering ideas for making the world 736 00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:55,810 Speaker 3: a slightly happier place, and we hope to see you 737 00:35:55,850 --> 00:36:03,210 Speaker 3: back then.