WEBVTT - The Odyssey: Nolan Makes the Ancient Epic His Own 0:00:21.244 --> 0:00:24.604 Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you 0:00:24.605 --> 0:00:27.605 can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in 0:00:27.685 --> 0:00:31.365 just two visits. See any standard two D movie anytime 0:00:31.725 --> 0:00:34.845 with no blackoutdates or restrictions. Sign up now on the 0:00:34.885 --> 0:00:37.284 Regal app or at the link in our description and 0:00:37.445 --> 0:00:41.685 use code film spot twenty six to receive fifteen percent off. 0:00:45.845 --> 0:00:48.325 What kind of a show you guys putting on here today? 0:00:48.445 --> 0:00:49.565 You're not interested in armed? 0:00:49.685 --> 0:00:51.524 Now? No, Look, we're going to do this thing. We're 0:00:51.565 --> 0:00:52.525 going to have a conversation. 0:00:55.084 --> 0:00:59.404 Welcome to film Spotting. It's an abbreviated film spotting, what 0:00:59.405 --> 0:01:03.285 we used to call a film spotting fix. Because I'm 0:01:03.325 --> 0:01:08.045 on vacation finally this summer, but we knew we had 0:01:08.045 --> 0:01:12.405 to get to our review of Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, 0:01:12.525 --> 0:01:17.605 So ahead of vacation, we're doubling up this week, Josh 0:01:17.685 --> 0:01:22.725 and recording the Odyssey. I actually am coming pretty much 0:01:22.725 --> 0:01:26.285 straight from the theater. I've had about three hours to process, 0:01:26.485 --> 0:01:27.765 get some notes on paper. 0:01:28.205 --> 0:01:29.005 We'll see how I do. 0:01:29.685 --> 0:01:29.765 So. 0:01:29.925 --> 0:01:33.965 Somewhere in between an immediate still processing and you know, 0:01:34.005 --> 0:01:37.845 the deep days of reflection we like to give movies. Yeah, 0:01:37.884 --> 0:01:40.684 I don't envy you. This is a gargantuan one to 0:01:40.884 --> 0:01:44.645 digest with any sort of time, let alone a couple 0:01:44.645 --> 0:01:48.325 of hours. But that being said, I'm so eager to 0:01:48.365 --> 0:01:49.485 hear what you made of the Odyssey. 0:01:50.165 --> 0:01:50.805 Let's do it. 0:01:51.125 --> 0:02:05.765 Tell me what you remember, well, wife, a son, and 0:02:05.845 --> 0:02:10.845 then we want them more. 0:02:17.405 --> 0:02:23.125 Help me go ahead, Adam. I learned something new while 0:02:23.205 --> 0:02:28.525 preparing for Christopher Nolans The Odyssey. In Emily Wilson's introduction 0:02:28.645 --> 0:02:32.245 to her translation of the Homeric poem, she discusses the 0:02:32.285 --> 0:02:33.885 notion of a rhapsode. 0:02:34.445 --> 0:02:35.204 This is also. 0:02:35.005 --> 0:02:39.684 Translated as a song stitcher, and it refers to performers 0:02:39.725 --> 0:02:43.165 in an ancient oral tradition. Well before the Odyssey was 0:02:43.204 --> 0:02:47.445 set into text, rhapsodes would have spun versions of the 0:02:47.445 --> 0:02:51.885 tale for audiences, weaving in their own improvisational elements to 0:02:52.085 --> 0:02:55.805 the basic pattern of what we now know as the Odyssey. 0:02:56.725 --> 0:03:00.445 Nolan's the Odyssey opens with just such a figure, a 0:03:00.484 --> 0:03:03.365 man with a staff standing on a table in the 0:03:03.484 --> 0:03:08.085 royal dining hall of Penelope, where hungry suitors drool over 0:03:08.125 --> 0:03:12.644 her in the long absence of her husband Odysseus. This 0:03:12.764 --> 0:03:17.125 rhapsode rhythmically pounding his Staff on the Table tells the 0:03:17.165 --> 0:03:21.725 story of quote a man Odysseus himself, news of his 0:03:21.805 --> 0:03:24.845 victory at Troy has come home, but there has been 0:03:24.885 --> 0:03:28.525 no word of what happened to him, after which the 0:03:28.525 --> 0:03:32.685 rest of the movie will unspool. Adam, I would propose 0:03:32.924 --> 0:03:38.165 that Christopher Nolan is a modern rhapsode, taking existing tales 0:03:38.245 --> 0:03:43.005 and legends, Batman, anyone, and remolding them for new audiences 0:03:43.485 --> 0:03:47.285 to his own purposes. It's no wonder he was drawn 0:03:47.365 --> 0:03:50.845 to the potential of Homer's the Odyssey. Then he is 0:03:50.885 --> 0:03:54.645 also stylistically up to the task of fully bringing to 0:03:54.685 --> 0:03:59.245 life this monumental yarn, considering he issues digital imagery as 0:03:59.285 --> 0:04:04.245 much as possible, favors locations over sets, and has chosen 0:04:04.645 --> 0:04:07.685 entirely in the case of The Odyssey to capture images 0:04:07.765 --> 0:04:13.045 with widescreen Imax cameras. As Nolan pounded his staff on 0:04:13.085 --> 0:04:16.005 the table at him, were you wrapped by the telling 0:04:16.365 --> 0:04:19.805 as a song stitcher? What Nolan qualities did he weave 0:04:19.925 --> 0:04:23.805 into the tale? And lastly, what is the one Nolan 0:04:23.925 --> 0:04:27.005 film The Odyssey reminded you of the most? 0:04:27.845 --> 0:04:30.605 I was pretty rapped, I should say, not just any 0:04:30.645 --> 0:04:34.404 man pounding with the staff but Travis Scott is playing 0:04:34.645 --> 0:04:39.804 that man, and Emily Wilson was actually just in Iowa City, 0:04:39.925 --> 0:04:43.125 or well that was November, I should say, and I 0:04:43.205 --> 0:04:46.925 did not attend. I wish I had, especially now having 0:04:47.005 --> 0:04:50.445 just seen the Odyssey film spotting Pa. Sophie Kempanar was 0:04:50.445 --> 0:04:55.725 there in attendance and was greatly educated by it. I 0:04:55.805 --> 0:04:59.285 am remiss that I wasn't there for that talk. Obviously, 0:04:59.325 --> 0:05:04.125 I remember the broad strokes of the Odyssey, which seemed 0:05:04.165 --> 0:05:08.044 to be pretty much in place. But I want to 0:05:08.085 --> 0:05:11.245 provide this disclaimer off the top that the last time 0:05:11.284 --> 0:05:13.845 I read it, Josh was Humanity's one oh one, my 0:05:13.964 --> 0:05:17.724 sophomore year of college. I say that just so people 0:05:17.805 --> 0:05:20.245 know that I'm not going to be a reliable source 0:05:20.245 --> 0:05:23.645 when it comes to breaking down where Nolan is drawing 0:05:23.725 --> 0:05:31.165 ideas from Homer that already match his sensibility versus embellishing 0:05:31.605 --> 0:05:35.245 or manipulating to suit his needs. I suppose one might 0:05:35.284 --> 0:05:38.804 call that adapting. I am, though, going to suggest there's 0:05:38.885 --> 0:05:43.725 one crucial exception, and that modification will also lead me 0:05:43.885 --> 0:05:48.085 to answer your second question. This is such a Christopher 0:05:48.125 --> 0:05:51.725 Nolan film that my initial thought was to tell you 0:05:52.445 --> 0:05:56.245 that there is no single answer. Perhaps only the Odyssey 0:05:56.284 --> 0:06:01.765 could offer Nolan the canvas epic enough for all his obsessions. 0:06:02.205 --> 0:06:08.245 It seems like such an amalgamation to me, and we 0:06:08.284 --> 0:06:12.164 can get into that later. I'll tell you first that 0:06:12.605 --> 0:06:15.805 I didn't expect to be thinking about Oppenheimer as I 0:06:15.885 --> 0:06:19.885 watched The Odyssey, But I'll give you two quotes. First, 0:06:20.485 --> 0:06:25.085 the famous line Oppenheimer says, of course in the film, 0:06:25.645 --> 0:06:28.445 now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds. And 0:06:28.485 --> 0:06:35.685 then the closing conversation between Oppenheimer and Einstein, when Oppenheimer says, 0:06:35.805 --> 0:06:38.125 when I came to you with those calculations, we thought 0:06:38.125 --> 0:06:40.325 we might start a chain reaction that would destroy the 0:06:40.445 --> 0:06:43.645 entire world, and Einstein says, I remember it, what of it? 0:06:44.045 --> 0:06:47.245 And he says, I believe we did. There is a 0:06:47.445 --> 0:06:53.245 clear line connecting Oppenheimer and Odysseus as the men responsible 0:06:53.525 --> 0:06:59.405 for creating the weapons and leading the initiatives to destroy 0:06:59.885 --> 0:07:05.445 Troy slash Hiroshima. As Nolan portrays it, Troy Sacking takes 0:07:05.485 --> 0:07:11.965 on the significance of the atomic bomb dropping. Something inviolate 0:07:12.165 --> 0:07:15.205 has been breached. The moral order of the universe. Zeus's 0:07:15.285 --> 0:07:19.005 Law as they call it here, has been upset and 0:07:19.165 --> 0:07:23.165 humanity may never recover. In both, we have heroes wrestling 0:07:23.245 --> 0:07:27.685 with the fallout of that breach and their choices. But 0:07:27.765 --> 0:07:29.845 it's that last part, Josh, that leads me to my 0:07:30.005 --> 0:07:33.365 real answer. And no, this isn't shameless promotion. I have 0:07:33.485 --> 0:07:37.685 Bilga Abiri and his appearance on our Nolan Movie Deathmatch 0:07:37.725 --> 0:07:41.765 podcast to thank for it, because at one point in 0:07:41.805 --> 0:07:50.165 the Odyssey, Charlie Sterren's Calypso says something do Odysseus that 0:07:50.285 --> 0:07:53.845 set off a bunch of bells in my head. I 0:07:53.885 --> 0:07:56.645 knew it was really familiar, and I don't have the 0:07:56.685 --> 0:08:00.565 exact quote, but she's explaining to him that he will 0:08:01.165 --> 0:08:04.045 have to return home and this is something he both 0:08:04.125 --> 0:08:08.485 wants to do and also doesn't want to do, and 0:08:08.525 --> 0:08:11.805 she both wants him to stay because she loves him 0:08:11.885 --> 0:08:15.245 and knows that he also needs to go, and she 0:08:15.325 --> 0:08:18.885 says to him that it will require a leap of faith. 0:08:20.125 --> 0:08:24.125 Bilga said a inception a movie, I might add that's 0:08:24.165 --> 0:08:28.525 effectively a film about a husband undertaking a long journey 0:08:28.565 --> 0:08:31.925 who has to overcome a myriad of obstacles, including time dilation, 0:08:32.805 --> 0:08:36.005 to try to reunite with his wife and children. He 0:08:36.085 --> 0:08:40.525 said that it's all a movie about regret. These are 0:08:40.805 --> 0:08:43.285 Bilga's exact words during that podcast. He said, it's a 0:08:43.325 --> 0:08:46.405 film in which, on every level we learn something new 0:08:46.525 --> 0:08:49.885 about how regret works, and specifically about how regret works 0:08:49.885 --> 0:08:52.005 for this character of Cobb. And my theory of the 0:08:52.085 --> 0:08:55.005 hidden inception with Inception is that there is this line 0:08:55.005 --> 0:08:58.005 that's repeated several times at the different intervals in the film. 0:08:58.005 --> 0:09:00.685 It's some variation of do you want to take a 0:09:00.765 --> 0:09:03.605 leap of faith or become an old man filled with 0:09:03.765 --> 0:09:08.525 regret waiting to die alone. The Nolan movie The Odyssey 0:09:08.605 --> 0:09:13.685 is most like is Inception. Nolan's Odysseus didn't get blown 0:09:13.725 --> 0:09:17.525 off course. Here's the modification, unless you can prove me 0:09:17.564 --> 0:09:19.765 wrong because you've read it more recently than I have. 0:09:20.205 --> 0:09:24.565 Nolan's didn't get blown off course and was unable to 0:09:24.605 --> 0:09:26.925 return home for so long because he angered the gods 0:09:27.285 --> 0:09:30.045 or wanted to keep seeking glory or some combination and 0:09:30.085 --> 0:09:35.405 then got trapped by Calypso No, his subconscious invents reasons 0:09:35.925 --> 0:09:38.885 to take the longer path home and to commit acts 0:09:39.325 --> 0:09:42.725 that rile the gods up because he's filled with so 0:09:42.885 --> 0:09:48.964 much regret. He's so traumatized by the horrors that he unleashed, 0:09:50.605 --> 0:09:54.005 that being an old man filled with regret may seem 0:09:54.085 --> 0:09:58.245 like a better alternative than having to face the new world. 0:09:58.804 --> 0:10:02.925 Try trying to forget that that actually may be a 0:10:02.925 --> 0:10:05.684 better alternative than having to face this new world that 0:10:05.765 --> 0:10:09.204 he that he helped to usher in. And in closing, Josh, 0:10:09.205 --> 0:10:12.205 I'll say, I thought, maybe this trauma angle, it's not 0:10:12.285 --> 0:10:16.685 just regret. Maybe this trauma angle is the new spin, 0:10:17.205 --> 0:10:20.485 This this added new thing with with Nolan. We're getting here, 0:10:21.005 --> 0:10:23.725 and this is something he'll explore from here on out, 0:10:23.885 --> 0:10:26.965 because there's so many other aspects of Nolan's work that 0:10:27.005 --> 0:10:30.125 we're getting in this movie. And then I was just 0:10:30.125 --> 0:10:32.565 trying to look up a detail, and I went to 0:10:32.645 --> 0:10:36.765 my Interstellar reviews on Letterboxed, and in my twenty fourteen review, 0:10:37.005 --> 0:10:40.684 I wrote this, Nolan's protagonists have always been obsessed explorers 0:10:40.684 --> 0:10:43.285 of one form or another. Somehow, I don't think I 0:10:43.365 --> 0:10:46.245 realized until now just how much they're driven by loss, 0:10:46.645 --> 0:10:50.804 battling the universe's unbending laws forbidding the undoing of a 0:10:50.885 --> 0:10:54.245 past trauma or mistake. So maybe I should change my 0:10:54.285 --> 0:10:57.925 answer back to there is not just one Nolan movie. 0:10:57.965 --> 0:11:01.285 But if you pin me down, it's all a long 0:11:01.285 --> 0:11:03.964 winded way of saying I think it's inception. 0:11:04.525 --> 0:11:06.525 I think it's insuche What do I love that? I 0:11:06.564 --> 0:11:09.204 love that answer? It absolutely tracks. It fits in with 0:11:09.245 --> 0:11:13.165 what I expected going into the Odyssey was the homegoing 0:11:14.285 --> 0:11:18.365 whether it's it's the husband or the father, which is interstellar, right, 0:11:18.405 --> 0:11:21.684 it's the homegoing quality of the poem that he was 0:11:21.725 --> 0:11:23.844 maybe drawn to and going to emphasize. And of course 0:11:23.885 --> 0:11:27.045 that's still a part of it. That reading of Odysseus, 0:11:27.525 --> 0:11:31.245 I think is valid and I've seen it elsewhere. Also 0:11:31.365 --> 0:11:35.805 that there is some obfuscation on his part that delays 0:11:35.845 --> 0:11:39.005 the journey. I think that's fair. I think the trauma 0:11:39.085 --> 0:11:43.005 element to me is something that isn't maybe entirely new, 0:11:43.045 --> 0:11:49.245 but more emphasized by Nolan, Whereas me personally, I don't 0:11:49.245 --> 0:11:54.485 regard Odysseus as necessarily that self reflective of a character 0:11:54.965 --> 0:11:59.165 in the way we see Matt Damon's Odysseus. And I 0:11:59.165 --> 0:12:02.045 think that's fine. I mean, as I said in my setup, 0:12:02.125 --> 0:12:05.165 you know this is if there's any property that Nolan 0:12:05.205 --> 0:12:07.965 has the right to rework in his own way, it's 0:12:08.005 --> 0:12:12.005 one that's this old that originated in a tradition of reworking. 0:12:12.125 --> 0:12:16.045 So any sort of comparisons I might make to Homer's 0:12:16.045 --> 0:12:18.765 poem itself are not meant to be negative, but points 0:12:18.765 --> 0:12:22.685 of interest to consider where Nolan is. I think conception 0:12:22.804 --> 0:12:24.605 is a good answer. I think your larger point of 0:12:24.645 --> 0:12:27.565 how you see threads of every one of his films 0:12:27.605 --> 0:12:31.165 here is also fair. And this is a movie big enough, 0:12:31.205 --> 0:12:33.805 as you pointed out, to contain all of those I 0:12:33.925 --> 0:12:37.324 landed where you started, though, Adam, and it was Oppenheimer, 0:12:37.845 --> 0:12:42.885 And this again is not a quality that I thought 0:12:42.885 --> 0:12:44.885 about a film I had in my head, even though 0:12:44.885 --> 0:12:50.125 it's his most recent going into the Odyssey. But for me, 0:12:50.885 --> 0:12:54.765 this is Odysseus as Jay Robert Oppenheimer. This is the 0:12:54.845 --> 0:13:01.405 guy you described a wielder of warfare, and how they 0:13:01.445 --> 0:13:04.845 get there is obviously very different, the context is obviously 0:13:05.005 --> 0:13:07.805 very different. But to me, what Nolan is trying to 0:13:07.845 --> 0:13:10.964 do here is take this tale of a fabled warrior 0:13:11.804 --> 0:13:15.084 and mold it into something that's more about a moral awakening, 0:13:16.325 --> 0:13:22.564 an eye opening realization about the ruin of warfare. And 0:13:22.645 --> 0:13:26.845 to me, that totally tracks with Oppenheimer. Right to my mind, 0:13:26.845 --> 0:13:30.125 that's what that film was essentially about, among many other things, 0:13:31.245 --> 0:13:32.965 but that was what it was at its heart, and 0:13:33.005 --> 0:13:37.005 I think that's what this Odyssey is about. And the 0:13:37.125 --> 0:13:40.925 journey I took in how much this movie worked, because 0:13:40.965 --> 0:13:44.245 as a piece of cinema, oh boy, does it work. 0:13:44.285 --> 0:13:45.725 And we're going to get to that, I'm sure. 0:13:46.645 --> 0:13:48.885 But in terms of what Nolan is interested in doing 0:13:48.925 --> 0:13:53.045 with this tale, the journey I took was, boy, he's 0:13:53.085 --> 0:13:57.005 setting himself up for a real challenge here, wanting to 0:13:57.165 --> 0:14:01.165 make And this relates to another new film spotting podcast, 0:14:01.245 --> 0:14:04.485 the Movie Racket, with Michael Phillips, who had guest Michael 0:14:04.485 --> 0:14:07.445 Shannon on recently to conside of the maxim there's no 0:14:07.564 --> 0:14:10.965 such thing as an anti war movie, which a variation 0:14:11.125 --> 0:14:12.845 of you Know can be traced back to an interview 0:14:12.885 --> 0:14:16.365 Gen Cisco did with Truefou And I think what Nolan 0:14:16.445 --> 0:14:20.245 is trying to do here is take one of the 0:14:20.365 --> 0:14:25.485 proto warrior movies and use it to ask us to 0:14:25.645 --> 0:14:31.965 question how what we're willing to sacrifice, to question is 0:14:32.045 --> 0:14:35.365 their a justification for war? And man, I think is 0:14:35.405 --> 0:14:37.965 that tricky because at the same time he wants to 0:14:37.965 --> 0:14:40.125 ask us that question. This is a three hour movie 0:14:40.125 --> 0:14:45.925 of battles and pillaging and not on screen raping, but 0:14:45.965 --> 0:14:51.205 suggesting of rape plundering. And you're right, the sacking of 0:14:51.285 --> 0:14:55.645 Troy is the crucial sequence in this question. It's held 0:14:56.045 --> 0:14:58.605 off for much of the film that we get little snippets, 0:14:59.125 --> 0:15:01.285 as Nolan likes to do, he's jumping around in time. 0:15:01.365 --> 0:15:04.645 We get little snippets of it early, but the full 0:15:04.725 --> 0:15:09.045 sequence is meant to be Odysseus, the scales falling from 0:15:09.125 --> 0:15:14.365 his eyes. And I'm still somewhat wrestling though I admire 0:15:14.405 --> 0:15:17.205 what Nolan's attempting to do, and I think for this 0:15:17.325 --> 0:15:20.165 year in twenty twenty six, I think it's worth doing 0:15:20.285 --> 0:15:23.925 is asking these ques questions. But I'm still a little 0:15:23.925 --> 0:15:29.005 bit wrestling with how it fits when mapped onto Odysseus's story, 0:15:29.165 --> 0:15:36.685 which post sacking, post scales falling, post epiphany, there's a 0:15:36.685 --> 0:15:37.765 whole lot of bloodshed. 0:15:37.845 --> 0:15:41.485 Still, yes, I want to go there too, and we can. 0:15:41.685 --> 0:15:44.885 It's distinct, right, the actions and the reasons for taking 0:15:44.885 --> 0:15:50.765 those actions are somewhat distinct between Troy and the murder 0:15:50.805 --> 0:15:53.885 of the Suitors is the climax of the film. But 0:15:54.085 --> 0:15:56.165 it's just tricky to me if you're going to if 0:15:56.325 --> 0:15:58.805 I'm reading the intent of the movie, which is again 0:15:58.845 --> 0:16:02.445 to be similar to Oppenheimer, what have we done? What 0:16:02.485 --> 0:16:05.845 with the power we hold? Yes, especially in regard to 0:16:05.885 --> 0:16:11.405 the taking of lives, the organized, systematic, planned taking of lives, 0:16:12.125 --> 0:16:13.405 If you're going to make a movie that means to 0:16:13.485 --> 0:16:20.005 question that is a warrior king who still employs violence 0:16:20.005 --> 0:16:25.725 to ultimately rea store his kingship the tail to do it? 0:16:25.765 --> 0:16:30.565 Does Nolan thread that needle for me? He does, and 0:16:30.565 --> 0:16:33.645 it's largely due to the artistry he uses to do it, 0:16:33.685 --> 0:16:37.125 and also because I'm just grateful for a movie that's 0:16:37.205 --> 0:16:40.805 raising these sorts of questions in a year where we've 0:16:40.845 --> 0:16:47.405 seen organized, systematic, planned war mongering across the globe more 0:16:47.445 --> 0:16:50.845 so than in how many years. So I think this 0:16:51.125 --> 0:16:54.285 is a time for the question Nolan poses. I think 0:16:54.285 --> 0:16:57.405 he mostly manages to pull it off, even though he 0:16:57.485 --> 0:16:59.685 used really challenging material to do it. 0:17:00.285 --> 0:17:03.325 I think that's correct. He mostly pulls it off. But 0:17:03.405 --> 0:17:06.205 there is this tension, there is this conflict, and I 0:17:06.245 --> 0:17:10.685 felt an attention. I felt it as well, and I 0:17:10.765 --> 0:17:14.325 want to get to that by way of saying that 0:17:14.685 --> 0:17:18.925 this is the first time with any of his films 0:17:19.645 --> 0:17:25.285 that I have noticed the criticism that some have lobbed 0:17:25.285 --> 0:17:27.605 at his movies, including you, Josh, with some of his 0:17:27.725 --> 0:17:32.325 movies that sometimes they are overwritten and a little bit 0:17:32.365 --> 0:17:37.485 too talkie. This for me was the film where I 0:17:38.765 --> 0:17:42.805 was very aware of all of the exposition that was 0:17:42.845 --> 0:17:48.965 taking place. And now as we get into Odysseus specifically 0:17:49.045 --> 0:17:53.525 and the writing, the more I process the film and 0:17:53.605 --> 0:17:56.605 realized what I really thought it was about and what 0:17:56.685 --> 0:18:01.845 I thought the character arc was for Odysseus. It's on 0:18:02.005 --> 0:18:06.485 me to rewatch the film through that lens and see 0:18:06.525 --> 0:18:10.285 how all of this comes into play. But I do 0:18:10.325 --> 0:18:15.685 think there's some redundancy to all of the conversations happening 0:18:16.485 --> 0:18:20.565 about and between and with the suitors back home at Ithaca. 0:18:21.605 --> 0:18:23.725 I think there's some redundancy to some of the set 0:18:23.765 --> 0:18:27.205 pieces involving Odysseus and his men, and all of the battles, 0:18:27.285 --> 0:18:32.565 as brilliantly staged as they are. But his character arc 0:18:33.405 --> 0:18:37.045 everything I described in answer to your question, that arc 0:18:37.165 --> 0:18:42.245 is what I'm most invested in, and it does take 0:18:42.325 --> 0:18:46.485 forever in this movie to meet him, and I'm not 0:18:46.645 --> 0:18:49.845 sure that we do. To your point about how self 0:18:49.885 --> 0:18:53.725 reflective he is, I'm not sure that we on this 0:18:53.765 --> 0:18:55.725 first viewing, I'm not sure that we have enough of 0:18:55.765 --> 0:19:01.205 a sense of his trauma. I think the work that 0:19:01.245 --> 0:19:05.205 the cuts to those nonlinear the way we're moving around, 0:19:05.205 --> 0:19:09.405 the cuts to his conversations with Calypso the work I 0:19:09.405 --> 0:19:14.685 think that's supposed to be doing reflecting his misgivings about 0:19:14.725 --> 0:19:16.525 the things he's done in his past. I think that's 0:19:16.525 --> 0:19:20.765 obviously supposed to be doing that work. But on the whole, 0:19:21.205 --> 0:19:25.525 it seems like he's really only self reflective at the end, 0:19:25.725 --> 0:19:29.885 and that comes in what the form of a very long. 0:19:29.725 --> 0:19:33.325 Speech where he says it. He just lays all of it. 0:19:33.365 --> 0:19:36.645 He lays this theme all out on the table for 0:19:36.805 --> 0:19:39.285 the audience. But then that's the other point, Josh you 0:19:39.365 --> 0:19:44.525 said it is that if this is about a reckoning 0:19:45.205 --> 0:19:49.965 with the idea of regret and regret at the choices 0:19:50.005 --> 0:19:54.484 you made to usher in a new order to the 0:19:54.485 --> 0:20:00.045 world in which the old the old rules don't seem 0:20:00.085 --> 0:20:06.125 to apply, and you are you are traumatized, You aren't 0:20:06.125 --> 0:20:11.205 sure you can return to the home that you once 0:20:11.285 --> 0:20:15.325 had because you're not the same man that you once were, 0:20:16.565 --> 0:20:21.765 Then how do we reconcile the fact that he seems 0:20:22.325 --> 0:20:26.565 comfortable carrying out the vengeance that needs to be carried 0:20:26.565 --> 0:20:29.885 out on all of those suitors. If if he really 0:20:30.045 --> 0:20:34.845 is the the Odysseus that that he seems to be 0:20:36.245 --> 0:20:40.485 post this this epiphany, having gone through this entire process 0:20:40.525 --> 0:20:42.685 that he goes through over the course of this movie, 0:20:43.285 --> 0:20:47.845 then does he need to for the sake of consistency, 0:20:47.965 --> 0:20:51.165 does he need to come up with some other way 0:20:52.005 --> 0:20:55.285 to get through to get through these suitors, which of 0:20:55.325 --> 0:20:58.725 course he can't do because it's the Odyssey and you 0:20:58.805 --> 0:21:01.605 can't end it any other way, right, So it's completely 0:21:01.645 --> 0:21:05.484 at odds with the source. It's it's perfectly in keeping 0:21:05.525 --> 0:21:08.365 with the source material. It's that it's that adjustment that 0:21:08.445 --> 0:21:11.965 he makes really up until that ending. 0:21:12.445 --> 0:21:15.245 I think you're a man who needs to control his fate, 0:21:18.365 --> 0:21:28.285 but he cannot control this. That world is gone. 0:21:29.205 --> 0:21:31.645 Josh, I know you've seen them, but if any listeners 0:21:31.645 --> 0:21:34.725 out there haven't caught up with two movies that made 0:21:34.805 --> 0:21:37.045 my recent top five films of the year so far, 0:21:37.605 --> 0:21:39.965 you can see them at regal cinemas now and why 0:21:40.005 --> 0:21:42.365 not see them there on the big screen, Toy Story 0:21:42.445 --> 0:21:47.085 five and the horror hit Obsession. But the movie that 0:21:47.165 --> 0:21:50.525 I'm recommending this week is the one I am most 0:21:50.525 --> 0:21:53.605 eager to finally get out to see on the big screen. 0:21:53.685 --> 0:21:56.405 It was your number four I believe film of the 0:21:56.485 --> 0:22:00.165 year so far, the film that everybody's buzzing about. Saw 0:22:00.205 --> 0:22:03.885 the trailer for it actually just today before the Odyssey, 0:22:03.965 --> 0:22:07.645 and it's just still killing me that I haven't seen it. 0:22:07.645 --> 0:22:12.125 It is the Invite with Seth Rogan, Olivia Wilde, Penelope Cruz, 0:22:12.525 --> 0:22:13.885 and Edward Norton. 0:22:14.725 --> 0:22:15.765 I want to see it, and. 0:22:15.725 --> 0:22:17.485 I want to see it for free, something I can 0:22:17.525 --> 0:22:20.725 do with my Regal unlimited membership, the all you can 0:22:20.765 --> 0:22:23.365 watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself and just 0:22:23.445 --> 0:22:25.365 two visits. All you have to do is sign up 0:22:25.605 --> 0:22:29.285 using the code film Spot two six film Spot twenty 0:22:29.325 --> 0:22:32.725 six to get fifteen percent off. It's the only truly 0:22:32.845 --> 0:22:36.045 limitless movie subscription pass because you can see any standard 0:22:36.085 --> 0:22:39.525 two D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions, 0:22:39.565 --> 0:22:44.445 and you save ten percent off on all non alcoholic concessions. 0:22:44.645 --> 0:22:46.245 All you have to do is sign up now in 0:22:46.325 --> 0:22:49.645 the Regal app or at the link in our podcast description, 0:22:50.045 --> 0:22:52.685 and again that code is film Spot twenty six. 0:22:52.965 --> 0:22:54.005 To get your disco. 0:22:59.405 --> 0:23:02.445 Real quickly, I'll just add that after that, and I 0:23:02.485 --> 0:23:08.405 won't give the details away. Nolan does and this differently 0:23:08.805 --> 0:23:15.484 than the poem ends and distinctly to address that. I 0:23:15.565 --> 0:23:18.565 feel also, and I think it works in the context 0:23:18.565 --> 0:23:21.645 of this movie. Again, I'm not criticizing. I think there's 0:23:21.685 --> 0:23:25.285 a choice made by Odysseus there that is closer to 0:23:25.405 --> 0:23:30.285 the main right, but agree, you're right the killing happens beforehand. 0:23:30.325 --> 0:23:34.245 I will also say, and the reason I think I'm saying, like, okay, 0:23:34.685 --> 0:23:37.085 it works is related to what you reference this notion 0:23:37.165 --> 0:23:41.325 of Zeus's law, which is, you know, I thought you 0:23:41.365 --> 0:23:43.085 were going to mention that when you talked about this 0:23:43.325 --> 0:23:45.405 movie being too talky, because I think Zeus's Law is 0:23:45.445 --> 0:23:47.725 invoked about once every twenty minutes. 0:23:47.845 --> 0:23:49.325 Okay, but this is praise for me. 0:23:49.405 --> 0:23:51.765 I'm going to get well, well, let me let me 0:23:51.805 --> 0:23:54.485 just quickly say in regard to the slaughter of the 0:23:54.485 --> 0:23:59.205 suitors that my sense is that is how the distinction 0:23:59.285 --> 0:24:04.565 the movie wants to make between Troy is that Odysseus's 0:24:04.565 --> 0:24:09.525 shame about Troy is that they used subterfuge in the 0:24:09.565 --> 0:24:13.685 Trojan Horse to sneak inside and take the city, and 0:24:13.805 --> 0:24:17.045 that is in his mind, a breaking of Zeus's law, 0:24:17.125 --> 0:24:19.925 which is in the movie. Is this strange combination of 0:24:20.005 --> 0:24:23.925 like the goal something that is in the poem hospitality 0:24:24.085 --> 0:24:27.845 and generosity and welcoming strangers into your palace, and and 0:24:28.325 --> 0:24:31.245 that's all in the poem and you root it, I'm 0:24:31.245 --> 0:24:34.365 sure in like in ancient actual tradition. The movie puts 0:24:34.405 --> 0:24:36.484 a spin on it. Penelope says something that it's like 0:24:36.525 --> 0:24:39.085 treating others how you want to be treated, which is 0:24:39.165 --> 0:24:41.285 jumping out ahead a little bit to pull from the Bible. 0:24:42.045 --> 0:24:44.485 But we've got we've got this Zeus's law that is 0:24:44.525 --> 0:24:49.365 held up as a governing principle, right, And now going 0:24:49.405 --> 0:24:52.565 back to the suitors and the slaughter that Odysseus takes, 0:24:52.965 --> 0:24:57.365 you know, engages in, they violate Zeus's law right by 0:24:58.165 --> 0:25:03.405 invading essentially his palace while he's gone disrespecting his wife 0:25:03.485 --> 0:25:07.485 and his son. And so I think in the world 0:25:07.245 --> 0:25:10.565 in the line this movie is trying to straddle, you 0:25:10.645 --> 0:25:15.765 could say, if not justification, that is why Odysseus, even 0:25:15.805 --> 0:25:19.405 though he was a quote unquote new man, still chose 0:25:20.005 --> 0:25:25.685 that path of vengeance. In that context, it's an out 0:25:26.005 --> 0:25:29.045 that I see, whether or not, you know, it's enough 0:25:29.085 --> 0:25:31.885 for most audiences. Is definitely out for debate. 0:25:32.365 --> 0:25:35.445 Yeah, it's not an out that that is satisfying for me, 0:25:35.645 --> 0:25:41.445 and without we've probably to some listeners it probably seems 0:25:41.485 --> 0:25:44.245 like we've we've spoiled too much, But it's the odyssey. 0:25:44.365 --> 0:25:47.685 I don't know how much we can spoil of this. 0:25:47.485 --> 0:25:50.005 Ancient I didn't give away the end the ultimately, but 0:25:50.125 --> 0:25:52.845 this coda, which I won't get into the details of, 0:25:52.965 --> 0:25:54.845 I will agree with you that it seems like there 0:25:54.885 --> 0:25:58.765 is a coda there that is Nolan's acknowledgment that we 0:25:58.885 --> 0:26:04.405 need something maybe a little bit more melancholy, that is 0:26:04.445 --> 0:26:07.725 our reconciliation of this tension that we're describing. At the 0:26:07.765 --> 0:26:11.645 same time, I will also tell you that I thought 0:26:11.645 --> 0:26:15.645 it felt abrupt, and I thought it felt to quote 0:26:15.645 --> 0:26:18.325 you from our last show, the Top five Films of 0:26:18.325 --> 0:26:22.565 twenty twenty six, I thought it felt unconn convincingly optimistic 0:26:22.845 --> 0:26:27.965 as well. Nothing about the writing there worked, and I 0:26:28.005 --> 0:26:33.565 thought it felt shoehorned in to actually send me. Unless 0:26:33.605 --> 0:26:37.245