1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Okay, So, a 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, we released an episode about painful sex, 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: and this episode that we're doing today, bad sex, is 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of a compliment to that one, So go check 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: it out if you haven't listened yet. But bad sex, 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: we need to talk about it, Bridget, We definitely do. 8 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: Even before I dove into any of the research for 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: this episode, just anecdotally, I had a feeling that a 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: lot of us out there we're putting up with some 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: bad sex and probably not being very vocal about it, 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: and that research proved me correct. Yeah, spoiler alert. As 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: it turns out, men and women are working vastly different 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: definitions of what constitutes bad sex, and because of that, 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: it might be a disconnect when we're talking about the 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: me Too movement between how men and women understand it, 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: because when a woman says bad sex, she is thinking 18 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: of one thing and a man is thinking of something 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,639 Speaker 1: else completely different. Yeah, that's true. And I think because 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: we don't talk about this, we have been conditioned to 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: not really talk about these things, not to speaking about 22 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: these things. Neither party sort of is communicating these feelings 23 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, and before we dive into the 24 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: basics of bad sex. Uh, shout out to listener Alexandra 25 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: for sending as a link to an article from the 26 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: week about this called The Female Price of Male Pleasure, 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: which was super helpful and putting this together. I also 28 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: drunkenly brought it up at a party like a week ago, 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: and probably every one at the party was like, Oh, no, 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm the bad sex girl at that party. Now, did 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: it win you any suitors? You know? Somebody did ask 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: me out after that. I'm not sure how much he 33 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: was around for that discussion. Though this girl knows a 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: thing at you about bad sex in her home. She 35 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: sounds like a hoot. Okay, so let's do some basics here. 36 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: If you took a poll of men versus women and 37 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: you asked what does bad sex mean? From the men, 38 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: you would probably hear that it was boring or that 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: the orgasm wasn't the best orgasm they've ever had. For women, 40 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: bad sex usually means coercion, emotional discomfort, or physical pain. 41 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: That's very different. So yeah, we're already kind of working 42 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: under two real, real different understandings of what bad sexes. 43 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: That reminds me so much of that old, that old 44 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: adage on a blind date. Men are worried that their 45 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: day it will be ugly or unattractive or heavy or something, 46 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: and and women are worthy, they're going to end up murdered. Right, 47 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: we have very different we're working on very different standards. 48 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: Are bars different with that way, Yes, very much. According 49 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: to Debbie Herbernick, professor and a researcher with the National 50 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, she told the author 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: of this article that we're talking about Leahlye loof Borrow. 52 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: When it comes to good sex, women often mean without pain. 53 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: Men often mean they had orgasms, and that just sad. 54 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: That's very sad. It is sad. Similarly, Professor Sarah McClelland, 55 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: one of the few folks has done some serious research 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: into this, found that quote. While women imagined the low 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and 58 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to 59 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they 60 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for the selves. Yeah, 61 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: that just goes to show how divided this issue is. 62 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: Is that men aren't even it's not even in their 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: understanding that the sex could be painful or intensely emotionally damaging. 64 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: It's just not great. Yeah, And it sort of reminds 65 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: me of how in our Why do Men Expose Themselves episode? 66 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: Some men don't see exposing yourself as harassment. It seems 67 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: like we are working off to extremely different scales. I 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: mean we are, Yeah, we definitely are. I hate this 69 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: that attitude of men and women are so different. I've 70 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: often thought that we're more similar, but there are some 71 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: things where it is couldn't be more clear that we 72 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: are see that we experienced the world differently. Yeah, And 73 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: going back to our episode on women's pain, of women 74 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: surveyed report pain during vaginal intercourse, report pain during annual intercourse, 75 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: and quote large proportions don't tell their partner. That really 76 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: makes me angry because you know, when you have sex 77 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: with someone, you are kind of giving them part of 78 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: your body. I mean it's a very intimate thing, obviously, 79 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: and the idea that people are experiencing pain and not 80 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: speaking up. And I think why it makes me angry 81 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: is because I've been there. I've been the person who 82 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: will let someone do something to me sexually, and not 83 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: only am I not enjoying it, I am actively in 84 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: pain while it's happening. And rather than say I don't 85 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: like this, can be stopped, can be changed something, something 86 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: in my brain tells me it's better to just continue 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: to have this not just not pleasurable, but actively unpleasant 88 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: experience and not say anything like. It makes me. It 89 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: makes me angry because I think about younger bridget who like, 90 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: would allow someone to do something that was that hurt, 91 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: and I would just and I would not even that, 92 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say anything. I'd pretend to enjoy it. Yeah, 93 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: and there is some research on that about the socialization 94 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: and of of women in our society that we're going 95 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: to talk about a little bit more. But yeah, it's 96 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: it's more difficult than just saying like, well, you should 97 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: speak up. There's more at play than that. Earlier this year, 98 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Sullivan published an article in The New York Magazine 99 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: arguing that Me Too had gone too far because it 100 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: ignores the biological realities of male bodies and their needs, 101 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: to which Colin Dickie had an excellent Twitter thread where 102 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: he rattled off a bunch of examples of sex and nature, 103 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: like how the oldest male clownfish will spontaneously change sex 104 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: when the dominant female dies. Are how the sea hair 105 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: is hermaphrodite species that reproduces in a chain. Where does 106 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: the male and one coupling and the female and another, 107 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: or the male mantis has better sex when his head 108 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: is removed from the body quote one of the most 109 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: wondrous things about nature that is not here for your 110 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: heteronormative bulls. I love that the animal kingdom is basically 111 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: like San Francisco in the seventies. How kinds of get downs, 112 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: headless everything, anything. It's a cornucopia. I am such a 113 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: nerd for there were so many examples and I only 114 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: listed three, but I I almost just included all of 115 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: them because I thought it was so interesting nature fascinating. Agreed, 116 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: But back to the human species. In our society, male 117 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: biological needs are the ones that we care about, not women's. 118 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: It's the one that we consider. If we're going to 119 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: talk about male pleasure, then we need to start talking 120 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: about female pleasure or female pain that is usually the 121 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: price women pay for male pleasure. In our Women in 122 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: Pain episode, we gave example after example of studies that 123 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: ignored women or treated the female body as the same 124 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: but basically in extension of the male body like must 125 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: be the same. There's no point studying it, right. One 126 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: stat we didn't mention in that episode. Pub Med has 127 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: three and ninety three studies looking into die sprenaria, forty 128 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: three looking into volverdenia, and ten into vaginice miss all 129 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: conditions associated with painful sex for women, among other symptoms. 130 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: Guess how many studies pub Med has on erectile dysfunction. 131 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it's a lot more, almost two thousand, 132 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: one thousand. And that's just so men can keep enjoying 133 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: the pleasure as opposed to women who have this this 134 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: painful sex and other like pain symptoms. Let's not study that. 135 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: That's we need to look about these things. Yeah, and 136 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: also the idea that a man can pretty easily go 137 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: in and get viagara, and for a woman to even 138 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: just get a diagnosis for something like endometriosis or pcos, 139 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it takes so long and you go through 140 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: so many different doctors, and you pay so much money. 141 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: It's such a big discrepancy. It makes me really angry. Yeah, 142 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: and probably viagra is in here in the US covered 143 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: by insurance, the average weight to get intometriosis diagnosed is 144 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: ten years, and insurance companies are less likely to cover 145 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: issues surrounding female bodies like birth control. For example, according 146 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: to a study published in called is Adam worth more 147 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: than Eve the financial impact of gender biased and the 148 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: federal reimbursement of gynecological procedures, male only surgeries were forty 149 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: more likely to get reimbursed. That's so upsetting. I can't 150 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: remember who I saw tweet at this, but if you 151 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: remember who it was, shout us out. But somebody was 152 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: explaining on Twitter trying to trying to get a diagnosis 153 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: for endometriosis, and she wrote, I spent ten years, got 154 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: three incorrect diagnoses, and I paid thousands of dollars out 155 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: of pocket for the pleasure of all of those misiagnoses 156 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: just to find out I had endometriosis. Like, the amount 157 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: of hoops that jump through, the amount of money that 158 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: you pay just to take care of our female body 159 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: is absurd. Yeah, it's infuriating. And another infuriating thing that 160 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is the way that women 161 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: are socialized to hide this pain. But first we're going 162 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: to stop for a quick break for word from our sponsor, 163 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay. So, yes, women, 164 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: at least here in the US, and I would say 165 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: probably in a lot of places, are socialized to hide 166 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: our discomfort. We grant and barratt. We want the people 167 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: were with to have a good time, and if that 168 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: comes at our expense, if that means pain, and so 169 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: be it. I have a lot of friends who talk 170 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: about and not necessarily sex related, but just like seeing 171 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: their mom going so far out of their way to 172 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: make sure that everyone else was happy, other than themselves. 173 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: And I think we do learn from that, and we 174 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: do internalize it, and if that does mean physical pain, 175 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: then so be it. And this relates to something known 176 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: as relative deprivation, when groups of disenfranchised folks, since they've 177 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: been conditioned to expect less, still report experiencing the same 178 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: amount of satisfaction as those better off than them. So 179 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: we've normalized female sexual pain all for the sake of 180 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: male sexual pleasure, which our society treats as a right. 181 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: Hence the ease of obtaining viagra versus the difficulty women 182 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: face getting their pain taken. Seriously, Yeah, and when you 183 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: think about the fact that we're like, when you really 184 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: drill down, the fact that we're talking about men's pleasure 185 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: versus women's pain. I mean, we're not even having the 186 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: conversation about women's sexual pleasure. What we're thinking about in 187 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: terms of leveling the playing field is men should be 188 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: able to feel pleasure and women should be able to 189 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: not be in excruciating pain. We're not talking about men 190 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: and women both experiencing sexual pleasure. We're talking about one 191 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: of them not being doubled down and discomfort. Right, and 192 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: and going back to what we were talking about earlier 193 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: and how right now, with all of this conversation about 194 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and the questions of how has has been 195 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: going on so long, why haven't you spoken up ladies, 196 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: and all of the comments about how women are too 197 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: sensitive about how sad it is that men can't hit 198 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: on ladies in a professional setting. For so long, we've 199 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: only considered men at the expense of women. I'm just 200 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: like at a loss. So so I'm getting angry. Yeah, 201 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: that's absolutely true. And so if I sound like I'm 202 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: a stammering idiot, it's because I'm really angry, and I'm 203 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: almost sort of angry at society. But mostly I'm angry 204 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: at myself because I think back to the early my 205 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: formative sexual years, how many of the encounters I had 206 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: with with men were scary, We're coercive, we're painful, were unpleasant, 207 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: and I didn't know that I could speak up and 208 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: say I don't like this, I don't want this, to 209 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: do this, not that. And of course it's society. It's 210 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: it's it's exactly what you describe. It's this culture that 211 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: says that women shouldn't speak up, that the man, heaven forbid, 212 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: he feels like he's not a macho man while he's 213 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: basically stabbing me with like dirty nails, and I'm really 214 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: it's like really unpleasant, and I'm just sort of like, Okay, 215 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: well this feels great. Please keep stabbing me with your dirty, unwashed, 216 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: jagged fingernails. This is great, Like who wouldn't enjoy this? 217 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: And I just feel like, on the one hand, I 218 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: guess those encounters perhaps did help me get to where 219 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: I am today, but I just looked back and I 220 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: wasted so much time on people who really didn't deserve 221 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: to have my body, and like I I look back 222 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: and it makes me very sad that I felt so 223 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: disempowered and I just wasted so much time on people 224 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: who did not deserve to be intimate me in that 225 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: way because I thought I had to because I didn't. 226 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: I did not see any other way, And it makes 227 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: me really angry at myself in a lot of ways. Yeah, 228 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us can relate to that 229 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: at the same time, at least in my In my case, 230 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: I didn't. It's almost like I didn't know that was 231 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: an option for me, and that sounds kind of ridiculous, 232 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: but it didn't even occur to me. So it is sad. 233 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: It's it's really sad, and I hate to think that 234 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: that this is still happening and they're young people out 235 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: there still they're going to have similar experiences. On the 236 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: one hand, I do feel like if I had not 237 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: had those experiences, like I feel like they were in 238 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: some way helpful for my sexual understanding. One they helped 239 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: me understand that I didn't really want to spend my 240 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: entire life only having sex with men because a lot 241 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: of them weren't that good at it. And I probably 242 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: would not have come to that realization if I had 243 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: not had those unpleasant experiences. But what you just said 244 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: makes me feel very sad because I do know that 245 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: they're young people out there, particularly women and girls who 246 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: feel like they have to put up with things sexually 247 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: that that that you just really do not have to 248 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: put up with. Like again, looking back, I wish I 249 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: could go back to eighteen year old bridget who was 250 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: in cutoffs in North Carolina at college, and say, if 251 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: a guy doesn't take the time to ask you what 252 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: you want, if a guy doesn't care that you're not 253 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: enthusiastically into this, if a guy is not asking these 254 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: basic questions about what you like and don't like. If 255 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: a guy doesn't take the time to get enthusiastic consent, 256 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: he does not deserve to be up in that party 257 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: bedroom with you. He does not deserve it. Like, find 258 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: someone who does deserve it, because those people exist. But 259 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: don't just go along with this because you feel like 260 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: you have to. You want to be cool, you want 261 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: them to like you, you you want to be popular. Whatever. 262 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: I wish I could go back to eighteen year old 263 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: me and be like, listen, you may feel awkward, but 264 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: you are hot, and people around you if if they 265 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: are lucky enough for you to even look at them, 266 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: that is a privilege, and if they don't know how 267 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: to act, you need to kick them to the curve. 268 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: Because I spent so much time being quiet about my 269 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: pain and not speaking up, and I just wasted so 270 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: much time feeling like I had to do that and 271 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: I really didn't. And I just I hope this is 272 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: useful for someone who's a young person out there who 273 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: feels like they have to put on this mask. It's 274 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: almost sort of related to being a cool girl, because 275 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: no one wants to be the person that says, yo, 276 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: this is actually uncomfortable, let me show you. It will 277 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: be a better way. And I think part of it 278 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: is that I didn't know my own body. I didn't 279 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: know that I was clear. I didn't know that what 280 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: I liked because I was really disconnected from my own 281 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: body and it was just a whole mixed bag of 282 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: shame and confusion and weird feelings around sex and my 283 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: body that just really went unresolved for a long time. 284 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: This is a rant. I'm sorry. It really makes me 285 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: angry because I know that as women, part of me 286 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: feels like this is just our cross to bear, and 287 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: I hate it. Yeah, there is some research on this 288 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: that we're going to get into a little bit later, 289 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: but I mean in the United States, we don't have 290 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: sex education, right, so most people when they have sex 291 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: for the first time, like have no idea what they want. 292 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: And also as a woman, you're told, hey, it's gonna hurt. 293 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: That's how you enter like your your first sexual experience, 294 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: knowing this is going to be painful. That's what we 295 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: tell women and girls. So we're going to talk about 296 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: that a little bit later. I love this thing from 297 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: the Weak article where the author was talking about how 298 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: if we look at straight women trying to attract straight men, 299 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: these women are probably in shapewear, probably wearing high heels, 300 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: probably waxed. Possibly injections like botox are involved. These are 301 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: painful things. They might be depriving themselves of food. If 302 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: not in general, then at a party where they're in 303 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: super form fitting dress. Men are not in this discomfort 304 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: and looking women. You wouldn't know it because we've been 305 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: trained to hide it. And I love this quote. Next 306 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: time you see a woman breezily laughing and a complicated 307 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: and revealing gown that requires her not to eat or 308 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: drink for hours, no a that you're witnessing the work 309 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: of a consummate illusionists acting or heart out and be 310 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: that you have been trained to see that extraordinary Oscar 311 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: worthy performance as merely routine. That is so true. Oh 312 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: my gosh. It actually reminds me when I was in 313 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: New Orleans recently. I was being hit on by someone. 314 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: And what's funny is that I was pretty drunk and 315 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't super interested. So I was like, oh, let's 316 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: just have on with this encounter and see what happens, 317 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, like, let me just torture this poor guy 318 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: for a night and see what happens. And like, I 319 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: was wearing a tank top and he was like, oh, 320 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: you know, I noticed you don't wax. I was like, no, 321 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: I don't do any of that. And his reaction owning 322 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: that I wasn't going to do things that were painful 323 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: or unpleasant to learn the attention of straight men, and 324 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: I basically just said that seeing how that was like 325 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: a really surprising thing for him, he could not sort 326 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: of wrap his head around. It made me realize, we're 327 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: out here putting in a lot of not just uncomfortable stuff, 328 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: a lot of money into giving men, heterosexual men this 329 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: sort of fantasy, and we're pretending that it's nothing right, Like, 330 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: you don't see the gears and the machine sort of 331 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: turning and the inside. All you see is this presentation 332 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: of effortless hotness, but you don't see the money that 333 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: goes into that, the discomfort, you know, shapewear, waxing, lasering, this, that. 334 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: And so as someone who was like not entirely but 335 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: like largely as I've gotten older, just opted out of that. 336 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: And if you don't want to be fine seeing how 337 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: many men who are who are otherwise progressive and with it, 338 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: it's that clear that they are still buying into that 339 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: lie and they have not taken the time to unpack 340 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: it or analyze it. Yeah, it's kind of like, Um, 341 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: I have a really funny memory of being on acting 342 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: in this thing and the director really had no idea 343 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: of He said, I just want that all natural look 344 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: and that took for for me about two hours. And 345 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: the dudes, I was so mad for them. It took 346 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: like thirty seconds for us to be natural looking. I 347 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: was so infuriated. They're getting to like practice their lines 348 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: or hers and I'm sitting there like still in hair 349 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: and makeup, and this is a mindset that does not 350 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: disappear when it comes to sex, right, So like when 351 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: it comes to women faking orgasms, which we did touch 352 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: on in our episode on woman's pain. One of the 353 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: number one reasons women gave for doing faking orgasms is 354 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: to quote, not hurt their partners egos, and then pleasing 355 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: your partner was another one. If you're in pain, you'll 356 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: get the sex over with more quickly. But that's something 357 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: we ignore as a society. And that same study looking 358 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: into why women might be faking orgasms didn't even offer 359 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: as an option that it might be pain. It was 360 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: sort of like, had twenty different choices and that wasn't one. Yeah, 361 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: and since beauty is how we measure women's worth and 362 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: our culture, and women are taught that how people perceive 363 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: them it's more important than any of their actual feelings, 364 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: then yeah, it might not just be as easy as 365 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: stopping sex when it's painful, or leaving or telling your 366 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: partner that you're in pain. There's all this other stuff 367 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: tied up in it. Yeah. I actually have a very unpopular, unwoke, 368 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: possibly unfeminist opinion about faking orgasms. I think orgasms are important. 369 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: I think it's part of self care and I think 370 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: that people should be having them. But if you've ever 371 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: had sex with a man, you know that men sometimes 372 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: don't understand all of the different things that sometimes have 373 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: to go into a woman having an orgasm. And sometimes 374 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: you have sex and you don't have an orgasm, and 375 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: so I don't know. I guess what I'm saying is 376 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's not gonna happen, and there's like nothing 377 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: your partner can do that's not gonna happen. And I 378 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: guess in an ideal world, you'd be in a situation 379 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: where you could just tell your partner or I still 380 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: want to have sex, I just might not have an orgasm, 381 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: So like, don't numb me out trying to give me 382 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: an orgasm. That's not gonna happen. I guess what I'm 383 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: saying is that sex, it's okay to have a sexual 384 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: encounter and still enjoy it if you know you're not 385 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: going to have an orgasm. And I think that for 386 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: if you're like early on with someone, if if if 387 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: it's your first time having sex with someone, you might 388 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: not have that communication where you can say I still 389 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: want to have sex, I might not have an orgasm, 390 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: it will still be an enjoyable situation if we have sex, 391 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and so sometimes you can fake it and that sort 392 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: of accomplishes it. And it's not ideal obviously, but I 393 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: think that sometimes it's harder to have that conversation with 394 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: someone that you maybe don't know that well, Am I 395 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: making sense? Like? Maybe I sound like I'm saying fake it, ladies, 396 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: and not what I'm saying. I'm saying that sometimes you 397 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: just want to watch your shows, right. You know, it's 398 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: someone that you are communicative with that you can say 399 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: this and they'll understand and they'll get it. That is 400 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: one thing. But maybe it's someone that you're sleeping with 401 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: for the first time and you you're not there yet, 402 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: you know, and I think you should acknowledge that, Like 403 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: it would be great and an ideal world that you 404 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: could say, you get what I'm saying? Right, Am I sounding? 405 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: Am I making sense? I don't know you are making sense. 406 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: I think what this article was trying to focus on, 407 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: and in general, like studies have been trying to get 408 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: to the heart of, is that so many women are 409 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: faking orgasms. Why is the number that high? And then 410 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: a lot of men will say, well why, And I 411 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: think that we just don't talk about it and looking 412 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: at reasons, they are totally a lot of reasons why 413 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: women might fake it, right, But two men, it's almost like, 414 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: what why would you do that? Don't you want to orgasm? 415 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: This reminds me so much of this classic Signfeld where 416 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: Elaine admits Jerry that she faked it during their relationship, 417 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: and all the women that she talks to they of 418 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: course they've all faked it. And then if you're listening, 419 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: I think every woman is probably faked it at some point. 420 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: So if you're listening, somebody's probably faked it with you. 421 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: I hate to be the bearer he was breaking it 422 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: down for you. I'm sorry. It's just the research that 423 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: you just said. If we're all out here faking it 424 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: at some point, if you are a man who has 425 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: Texas women, a woman somewhere us faked it with you, 426 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: that's just numbers. By the research that we have found, 427 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: it just makes sense. But when Elaine is talking to 428 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: her friends about why they fake it, their reasons are 429 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: really funny, but they're all like very similar. It's like 430 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: if we went to the theater and he got good seats, 431 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: or sometimes you just want to get some sleep, you know, 432 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: I had to admit part of me identified with that. Yeah, no, 433 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: I totally get it. Going back to that other thing 434 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: we were talking about about losing your virginity, that's another 435 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: point this article drove home about how we tell women 436 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: and girls that losing your virginity is going to be 437 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: this painful experience. And I definitely heard that one when 438 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: I was young. And also I seem to recall It's 439 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: been a long time since I've watched the show, but 440 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: I seem to recall on True Blood this was a 441 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: plot point when the like the one female vampire that 442 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: was young and she had long red hair I think 443 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: her name was Jessica, had sex for the first time 444 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: and it hurt like hell. She was so excited to 445 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: have it again, but it turned out she was forever virgin, 446 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: because I guess that's how vampires work. I know you 447 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: brought this up because this is your side interest of 448 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: horror movie, horror TV shows periods, loss of virginity sex. 449 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: We need to do a whole series on this because 450 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: you have a lot of thoughts. I really do you 451 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: see right through me? I was like, I know where 452 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: this is coming from. Annie, You're not slick, not fooling 453 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: bridget all right, Okay, vampires aside, in the context of 454 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: this episode, if you're told from a young age that 455 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: sex is going to hurt and that's normal, then that 456 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: can be hard to shake. That can just become like, well, 457 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: I guess if it hurts the first time, why would 458 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: it not hurt the second time? And so on and 459 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: so on, And we do have some research about that. 460 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: But first we're going to pause for one last break 461 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank 462 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: you sponsor. Recently, this was very fortuitous um TED talk 463 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: popped up in my feed called What Young Women Believe 464 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: About their Own Sexual Pleasure, and this was a TED 465 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: talk by Peggy Ornstein. For three years, Ornstein interviewed women 466 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: and young girls between the ages of fifteen to twenty 467 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: about their sexual experiences, and what she found was that 468 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: while a lot of the girls she spoke to did 469 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: feel entitled to sex, they didn't feel entitled to the 470 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: enjoyment of it. One young woman she spoke to described 471 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: herself as a loud, strong, smart feminist, that her mother 472 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: and grandmother were the same, but that she'd only had 473 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: a series of disappointing sexual encounters saying, I guess we 474 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: girls are just socialized to be these docile creatures who 475 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: don't express or wants or needs. And when the discrepancy 476 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: there was pointed out to her, the young woman said 477 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: she was never taught how to translate the loud, strong, 478 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: smart female thing to sex. Oh man, I had identified 479 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: with that so much. I know, I keep going back 480 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: to eighteen year old college bridget. But I was that loud, smart, 481 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: uber feminist girl on campus with you know, the approach 482 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: voice poster in my dorm room and I need to 483 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: Franco shirt. I projected that outwardly, but when it came 484 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: to sex, I just did not feel entitled to ask 485 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: for what I wanted. I didn't know how. It was 486 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: like I didn't have a voice. I had a voice 487 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: and all the other ways, but I didn't have a 488 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: voice when it came to my own sexuality and my 489 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: sexual needs. Yeah, and I think a lot of young 490 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: women feel that way. And or in Stein went on 491 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: to explain that if you look at the numbers, young 492 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: women these days are not engaging in more penetrative six 493 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: than their counterparts years ago, but they are more likely 494 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: to engage or to report, perhaps in other things, particularly 495 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: oral sex, and when asked about why they would perform 496 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: oral sex, most young women responded with a sort of strug, 497 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: no big deal. Maybe they said they felt powerful. A 498 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: lot of my friends and my own experience told me this, 499 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: or maybe it was a social status thing, although we 500 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: all know that's a double edged sword, or to get 501 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: out of an uncomfortable situation. A lot of them reported that. 502 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: One respondent said, quote, a girl will give a guy 503 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: a blowjob at the end of the night because she 504 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: doesn't want to have sex with him and he expects 505 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: to be satisfied. So if I want him to leave 506 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: and I don't want anything to happen and she trailed off, Yeah, 507 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: that is sad. But again I identify with that. You 508 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: couldn't just say I've had a lovely time, i'll see 509 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: you tomorrow, please leave, and you're like, well, what's one 510 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: blowjob in the scheme of things? You know, that's such 511 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: a I felt that way myself, you know, and it's 512 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: a sad way to feel. And also men aren't thinking 513 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: of that, Like, I don't know the numbers of this, 514 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: but I guarantee that men are not giving oral sex 515 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: to women at those same rates that from a pretty 516 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: young age or socialized that this is something that you 517 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: just do. You know, for all the reasons you just listed, 518 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure that men are not being told the same 519 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: thing about giving oral sex to to women. Yes, And 520 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: actually Ornstein looked into this because, of course, here comes 521 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: the shame our society has around female bodies and that 522 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: so many of us women have internalized. She was trying 523 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: to get to the reason women would participate in one 524 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: sided oral sex and not expect or even want that reciprocated. 525 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: And the women expressed a feeling of shame around their 526 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: own bodies and their genitals. And we talked about this 527 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: a bit before on the show a long time ago, 528 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: Christen and I made a video about it, how for 529 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: some women it's so hard to turn off the shame 530 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: you feel around your body, that that's what you're thinking 531 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: about when you're having sex. You're thinking about how unhappy 532 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: you are with your own body, how ashamed you are 533 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: of it. And you're not going to enjoy sex if 534 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,719 Speaker 1: that's what you're thinking, if the whole time you're just 535 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: it's like your skin is crawling. And I tried once 536 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: to get one of my ex boyfriends to understand this, 537 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: and he could not grasp it. It made no sense 538 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, that makes me sad, but it's so 539 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: so true. It's so true, and kind of does go 540 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: back to this idea of women and the burden that 541 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: we have. How can you feel your sexual best if 542 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: in your mind? If there anything like me, your mind 543 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: is racing with a million anxious thoughts all the time 544 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: anyway on a good day. But then add into that 545 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: these like shame filled thoughts about your own body. I remember, 546 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: this is going to be one of my like t 547 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: M I things. But years and years and years ago, 548 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: I was dating somebody that I actually really liked. But 549 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: one problem was whenever we had a sexual encounter that 550 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: involved him putting his hands on my on my genitals, 551 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: didn't he had this horrible, filthy habit of not washing 552 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: his hands, And so basically every time we did that, 553 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: I knew I was gonna get a yeast infection, like 554 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: I knew it, and I, you know, I was pretty young, 555 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: and so I couldn't have that conversation of did you 556 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: know that bodies are delicate ecosystems and when you put 557 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: your dirty fingers that have been touching your xbox all 558 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: day inside of someone you are actually gonna risk giving 559 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: them a U. T I or East infection. And that's 560 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: actually a totally normal biological response to you putting dirty 561 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: fingers inside of me. So actually, if you wash your 562 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: hands thoroughly before, it would help me out. Like I 563 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: could not have that conversation at nineteen, so I just 564 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: broke up with him for no one else to do um, 565 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: and it sucks, Like, honestly, there are so many little 566 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: things that I wish that people knew. P s A. 567 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: For anybody out there, if you are putting your mouth 568 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: on someone's buttle, you need to rinse your mouth out 569 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: with listerine with that has actual mouth wash before you 570 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: put that mouth on a vagina. Otherwise that person you 571 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: can get an infection. And infections are not sexy. Like 572 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: we don't have basic sex said, let alone someone that 573 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: is telling you how to have you know, healthy sexual 574 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: body practices, and so that just sort of gets wrapped 575 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: up in a snowball of shame and we're not talking 576 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: about it, and it's aim. It's lack of communication. It's 577 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: women being felt to endure things, to not have the 578 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: board in themselves with that, so many bad things when 579 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: sex is supposed to be good. Yeah, it makes me 580 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: think of a second sitcom that I used to watch, Scrubs, 581 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: and there was a joke on there where Carla said 582 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: she couldn't figure out why this one patient didn't get 583 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: erections when she came in, but did when every other 584 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: female nurse our doctor came in, and she said to him, 585 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: I can look at my body in the mirror for 586 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: ten seconds naked. That's more than most women I can 587 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: think about. That kind of relates. And more than seventy 588 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: of women in college remove all of their pubic hair 589 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: sometimes and over into it regularly, which is totally cool 590 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: if you're doing it for yourself, but a lot of 591 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: women interviewed relented that they did it because they thought 592 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: dudes would be grossed out if they didn't. On top 593 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: of that, the fastest growing cosmetic surgery among young teenage 594 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: girls is labia plastic, which is trimming of both the 595 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: inner and outer labia, and overall this procedure jumped eight 596 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: and the most popular option is called the barbie. Oh 597 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: my god, that's so upsetting. But also, I mean, for 598 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: any listeners who are women who sleep with other women 599 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: can tell you, I mean It makes me sad that 600 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: people are out here trying to get this perfect Barbiegina. 601 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: There is no such thing. There are so many vaginas 602 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: are snowflakes, like, no two vaginas look the same. Yeah, 603 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: and what makes it worse to me is that there's 604 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: no proof that it's safe. It could also call scarring, desensitization, 605 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: and pain, among other things. Enough women are seeking it 606 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: now for non medical reasons, because sometimes you can need 607 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: it for medical reasons, but enough people are seeking it 608 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: for non medical reasons that the American College of Obstetricians 609 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: and Gynecologists released a statement about it, saying, yeah, proof 610 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 1: it's safe. And if you're getting it for cosmetic reasons 611 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: and it does cause pain and lack of sensation, you're 612 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: basically risking your own sexual pleasure to project this fantasy 613 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: of a perfect Barbie vision as that really doesn't exist. 614 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: No psychologist at the University of Michigan, Sarah McClelland, uses 615 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: this term when talking about everything we've discussed here, intimate justice, 616 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: or the political and personal aspects of sex, of who 617 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: is entitled to enjoying sex, what's the scale for bad 618 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: sex for each partner, and what's the scale for good sex, 619 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: and through her research, McClelland found that women far more 620 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: than men rated sex based on the pleasure of their partner. 621 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: Men rated it by how good their orgasm was. So 622 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: in that way, we're rating the sex based on the 623 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: enjoyment of someone else, of the man, probably in this case. 624 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: Ornstein said of this mismatch over bad sex quote, if 625 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: a girl goes into an encounter hoping that it won't hurt, 626 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: wanting to feel close to her partner, and expecting him 627 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: to have an orgasm, she'll be satisfied if those criteria met. 628 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with wanting to feel close to 629 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: your partner, are wanting him to be happy. And orgasm 630 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: isn't the only measure of an experience, but the absence 631 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: of pain. That's a very low bar for your own 632 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: sexual fulfillment. Here here she completely encapsulated all the things 633 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: I feel. You are entitled to not be in pain 634 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: if you don't have to be, you know, like that 635 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: that should be the bare minimum that you owe yourself, 636 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: if that's something that you can attain. Yeah, And she 637 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: also talks about how less than half of teenage girls 638 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: between fourteen to seventeen have masturbated. And here's an embarrassing 639 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: fact about me. I didn't know it was possible for 640 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: girls to masturbate before college college I did. Well. Good 641 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: for you, bridget No, I mean it's it's true, but like, 642 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me. I mean, I'm teasing you, but 643 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me that you didn't know. Because in 644 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: high school we watched the movie I'm American Pie, where 645 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: Jason Biggs literally have sex with a pie while masturbated. 646 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: Where is the movie about how women get off or 647 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: girls get off? There isn't one. I had to figure 648 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: it out on my own. When I discovered masturbation, I 649 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: thought I had invented it. I was like, oh my god, 650 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: the secret new thing that only I know about. We 651 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: don't have a culture that tells women that they can 652 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: do this. And it doesn't surprise I'm teasing you, but 653 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me that you didn't know. Yeah, And 654 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: when I was thinking about it, what do you think 655 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: the stat is for boys fourteen to seventeen not knowing 656 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: masturbation is a thing. I already know having lived with 657 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: a boy fourteen to seventeen, I already can tell you 658 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: they have figured it out. They have all figured it 659 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: out well. And that's kind of the thing is a 660 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: lot of girls are going into their first sexual encounter, 661 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: maybe not having any idea what they like. Have never masturbated, 662 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: whereas the boys certainly has, and in the back of 663 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: your head you're thinking that the sex isn't meant for 664 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: them to enjoy, that it's supposed to hurt. That's pretty 665 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: messed up. It is messed up, and it's all the 666 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: more messed up that we're telling them that's at such 667 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: a young and formative age, Like those years kind of 668 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: put you on the pathway of who you become sexually. 669 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: And if the message that you are receiving is that 670 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: it's always going to hurt and it doesn't matter if 671 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: it feels good for you or not. But it does 672 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: matter if the boys having a good time and it's 673 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: always going to feel good for him. If that's what 674 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: you're absorbing, that that can stick with you for life. 675 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: Like I know women who when they're much much older 676 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: have kind of figured out that they've absorbed some pretty 677 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: toxic bit about their own bodies and have to do 678 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: that work when they're like fifty six seventy to have 679 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: a better relationship with their bodies. Yeah. Absolutely, And Ornstein 680 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: also has some data on same sex relationships. Yes, it's 681 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: they're refreshing and lesbian relationships, the focus on your partner's 682 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: pleasure remains, but this means that both are invested, both 683 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: are focused on the partner's pleasure, and both are more 684 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: likely to orgasm on having sex as opposed to it 685 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: being once cited. Also interesting, she said that lesbian by 686 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: girls are redefining what it is to lose your virginity 687 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: and the pain that hetero girls just expect and accept 688 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to the first time. There are so 689 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: many ways to be intimate and even more intimate that 690 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: can vary from couple to couple, and I love this. 691 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: One gay respondent said she defined losing her virginity as 692 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: the first time she orgasmed with a partner, and if 693 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: that was the definition, a lot of us would have 694 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: to rethink when, if ever, did we lose our virginity. Yeah. 695 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: I hate the idea of virginity quote losing your virginity. 696 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: I hate that. I am all for new and healthier 697 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: models of what virginity quote unquote looks like. If our 698 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: sexual milestone was not what a penis enters agina. If 699 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: that was not our sexual milestone, what could it look like? 700 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: The way that we prioritize men in terms of sexuality 701 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 1: is really striking. Yeah. And something else that is pretty 702 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: striking is this comparison or Instain did between studies of 703 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: Dutch female students and American female students, and she found 704 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: that the Dutch students had more positive sexual outcomes and 705 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: that a lot of the difference between the groups could 706 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: be attributed to education and having someone to talk to 707 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: you openly about your body and about sex. Parents of 708 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: the Dutch students talked to their daughters about responsibility and joy. 709 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: American parents talked about disease and pregnancy prevention. And I 710 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: love that joy aspect of it. I remember reading I 711 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: think it was an American parent describing how he had 712 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: never thought to include that that that it could be 713 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: a pleasurable experience for apps and should be. So we 714 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: need to teach girls and women responsibility, yes, but also 715 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: that they are entitled to enjoyment. And we need to 716 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: even out what bad sex means for both men and 717 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: women so we can have a dialogue coming from the 718 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: same place, and so that we can have these conversations 719 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: around me too, and we can start to unpack why 720 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: women don't just leave when bad sex is going down, 721 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: and so that we can have better sex for everyone. Yes, 722 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: I completely agree orgasms should be a human right, and 723 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: I agree I think that we just need to talk 724 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 1: about these things. And you know, I went to Catholic 725 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: school where no one told me that sex was supposed 726 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: to be pleasurable, you know, and I want people to 727 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: know that it's supposed to feel good, its supposed to 728 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: be a good experience. Yeah, I did not get that 729 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: talk either, So I hope that we can we can 730 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: start to move this way and have these conversations and 731 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: have better education, especially here at least in our experience, 732 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: better education because I didn't. We had one all about 733 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: me day in fifth grade and all it was was like, 734 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: you're gonna bleed and you're gonna get hair. That's it. Um. Well, 735 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: going to Catholic school, we got presentations that said condoms 736 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: are full of holes and then don't so people were like, 737 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: don't use condoms, they don't work. The only thing that 738 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: works as abstinence. Until I was twenty, I thought that 739 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: you couldn't get pregnant if you were on top. I mean, 740 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: come on, oh my god. We yeah, we had abstinence 741 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: only in my high school, very briefly, but a lot 742 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: of us got pregnant. A lot of us got pregnant. 743 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: Well that's true, but a lot of us women. So 744 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 1: they had these absence only posters we put up kind 745 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: of the jokey, it's just here's protection, but insert pun 746 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: about it here next to them all over and they 747 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: sort of gave up. So I love it. I love 748 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: the resistance. Yeah, so here's hoping for for more of 749 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: that resistance than having, if not an equal playing field 750 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to bad sex, at least an understanding 751 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: that we're saying we're talking about different things. Yes, yes, 752 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: this brings us to a listener. Mail and Marie wrote, 753 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,760 Speaker 1: it's been a few years since my favorite series of games, 754 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: The Elder Scrolls, came an online RPG game instead of 755 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: a series of consoles storyline games. RPG is role playing game, 756 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: by the way, and I've never gotten over it. I 757 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: grew up thinking that I wasn't good at any video games, 758 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: with two loud boy cousins who owned consoles, beating me 759 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: at Mario Kart and lacking the patients to teach me 760 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: first person shooting. When I got married, however, we were 761 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: gifted in Xbox and Elder Scrolls Oblivion, and I soon 762 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: found myself playing more than my husband did. I devoured 763 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: the game and then Assassin's Creed when it came out 764 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: as an aside, I scoffed when I heard you quoted 765 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 1: the Ubisoft is zek who said it would be too 766 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: much work to animate a woman for that franchise, since 767 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: they made their splash recreating ancient cities and landscapes with 768 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: the varied cultures of a Crusase era occupied Jerusalem as 769 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: the game centerpiece, but a woman whoa The most recent 770 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: games have had an okay and improving female characters to play, 771 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: but they still don't feel like they've been written as 772 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: thoroughly with as much depth. Back to Elder Scrolls, I 773 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: absolutely loved the next game, Skyroom, and it was a 774 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: huge hit. When I saw a new game was coming out, 775 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: I was so excited until I found that I didn't 776 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: understand most of the announcement. My husband translated the acronyms, 777 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: and I was really nervous. I didn't actually understand why 778 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: I was so nervous about an online game until I 779 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: listened to your episode about sexual harassment. I don't interact 780 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: with other gamers because I am an introvert with major anxiety, 781 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: a survivor of childhood sexual assault, and I spent middle 782 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: in high school putting up with sexual harassment that was 783 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: never punished from boys just being boys. I knew on 784 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: some gut level that even though I put a lot 785 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: of hours into gaming, the loudest voices in any online 786 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: game would be the people who put in. As Kristen 787 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: Caroline put it a part time job's worth of time 788 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: into the game. I tried the online game, but I 789 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: was playing on a Mac and I wasn't going to 790 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: invest in extra gear for one game. I wasn't willing 791 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: to play in groups or get on a mike. I 792 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: hated the gorgeous scenery and beautiful scenes and characters of 793 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: the world. I knew that they had been compromised so 794 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: that the game could become an online RBG. My point 795 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: is that when they made this move, but Thesda, which 796 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: is the company that makes the game, left out a 797 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: lot of people like me who escape into beautiful stories 798 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 1: with dragons and elves and magic and long winding, varied 799 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: past to the end of the plot because we need 800 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: that escape. I deal with debilitating mental illness, and I 801 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: can't work because of the anxiety and depression caused by 802 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: complex PTSD. I now play Minecraft with my five year 803 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: old son and we have a blast. I do still 804 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: enjoy the Assassin's Creed games, but I most certainly cannot 805 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: afford to risk harassment of any kind by joining an 806 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: online community that may turn hostile. I still get so 807 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: emotional about it. I really only get this emotional otherwise 808 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: about books that I love. If the next book and 809 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: a series I loved were somehow unavailable to me because 810 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: of a disability I had and would forever remain unavailable 811 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: to me, I would perhaps feel something similar, but I 812 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: would have somewhere to go to complain in that case 813 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: and feel a sense that I had a right to 814 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: be angry. In this case, I still feel a sense 815 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: of shame that I can't quote get over it and 816 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: be more of a joiner, even knowing that I'd potentially 817 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 1: face har assment. Sure, they claim that the game can 818 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: be played solo, but there are things that are nearly 819 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: impossible to do alone. It feels like a betrayal. Yeah, 820 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: I relate to a lot of this, and it makes 821 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: me so angry that this is something we have to 822 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: consider it all that I can't do this because I'm 823 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: probably going to be her ass like that avenue is 824 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: close to me. This thing that was supposed to be 825 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 1: fun that we use to escape is instead a source 826 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: of stress and harassment that we will just askew rather 827 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: than risk that happening. It is sad, and I think 828 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: this letter really drives home that what women lose, it's 829 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: not just a game. You can lose a lot, you 830 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,839 Speaker 1: can sacrifice a lot. It's upsetting. I think this letter 831 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: really illustrates what's at stake. Yeah, I do too. Mel wrote, 832 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm listening to the Miss America episode and I have thoughts. 833 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: I'm certainly glad the swimsuit and evening gowns are gone 834 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: and an emphasis is being put on social service and ambition. However, 835 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: I agree and I doubt this means that women who 836 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,720 Speaker 1: are different sizes, shap's ability, and gender identity will be included, 837 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: which has me wondering why do women publicly compete for 838 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: a crown and a scholarship. Why don't we have competitions 839 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: or men dressed nice, smile, pretty, and publicly face the 840 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: role to talk about serving others. Why does it seem 841 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: normal for women to publicly grobble for position or scholarship? 842 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: I guess well, there doesn't seem to be an equivalent 843 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: for men, especially one that is a popular television entertainment 844 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: Who doesn't want to see a newly crowned Mr America 845 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: with tears streaming down his giddy face? Why don't we 846 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 1: parade the quote ideal man across the stage? Why are 847 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: there not YouTube videos of Mr America contestants saying publicly 848 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: ridiculous ditzy stuff. I know Miss America, and I know 849 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: these pageants in general have their defenders. I just don't 850 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: see the point and making women publicly compete in this 851 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: way for entertainment, I don't see value in it. Other 852 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: scholarships exist, and they don't require you to go through 853 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,439 Speaker 1: a gendered public judge. Thank you for this letter, Mel. 854 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: It's funny I actually happen to know that male pageants 855 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: do exist. They are clearly much much much less popular. 856 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,840 Speaker 1: They're much much much less part of our sort of 857 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: cultural lexicon. Like it's not like you little boys aren't 858 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: growing up saying I want to be Mr. World. I 859 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: want to be Mr America. But there actually is a 860 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: Mr America. There is a Mr. World. The reason why 861 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: I know this is one because I think I mentioned 862 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: I did a little bit of pageantry back in my day. 863 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,240 Speaker 1: But to the current Mr World is this really really 864 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: really hot guy that I'm like semi obsessed with. So 865 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: I happen to know that he exists. Look him up online. 866 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: He's he's Mr India. He's just very handsome. We'll put 867 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: it that way. Um, And but it's true, right, you know, 868 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 1: it's much more of a public stage for the women 869 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: and the men do it, but it's kind of a 870 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: niche thing if it does not have the same cache 871 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: at all. And what would it look like if a 872 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: we MISSI had a society where women where no one 873 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,400 Speaker 1: had to parade themselves in this way or be everybody 874 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: did it and it was just a thing where it 875 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: was just as popular for the men as the women, right, Like, 876 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: what would that society look like? Like? What would a 877 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: more equal understanding of parading yourself around in this way 878 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: look like? Although I have to say that for these 879 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: male competitions, the question and answer portion is trying to 880 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 1: demonstrate whether or not they have intellect, but the questions 881 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: they asked for like the questions that you would ask 882 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: like a fifth grader. So I mean, you do. You 883 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: do get some beautiful yet dizzy guys, but in no 884 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: way do they get the same level of public scrutiny 885 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: that the women get at all. Do they have a 886 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 1: swimsuit portion they have like a muscle, They have an 887 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 1: evening wear portion where they're in suits, and they have 888 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: like a portion where they're showing off their muscles if 889 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: you want. If you're curious who the current Mr World is, 890 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: his name is Rohit Kwandal. He is born so he's 891 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 1: a young in He was Mr India two thousands fifteen. 892 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: He's the first Asian to ever be crowned Mr World 893 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: in twenty six teen. And he is gorgeous and I 894 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 1: would marry him. He did a Ted talk once, call 895 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:11,280 Speaker 1: me RoBeat. I'm totally objectifying him, but he also seems 896 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: smart and cool, so that is well, we'll teg that 897 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: on there. I love that you know those bridgets. You've 898 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: made my day. It's embarrassing. I'm not a follower of 899 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: male pageants. I just happened to see this guy's Ted 900 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: talk and I was like, he is gorgeous? Who is he? 901 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: And then it took me down a rabbit hole of stuff. 902 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: We'll leave it vague. It's stuff, well, we'll leave that 903 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: to the imagination of listeners or not. Um Thanks to 904 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: both of them for writing in. If you'd like to 905 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,359 Speaker 1: write to us, you can. Our email is mom Stuff 906 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,920 Speaker 1: at how stuff folks dot com, and as always, we 907 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: can meet that on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told 908 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 1: You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thanks 909 00:49:53,600 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: as always to our producer Kathleen Pilly. Oh don't