Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Henry Gerber was born on June twenty ninth,
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety two, or one hundred thirty two years ago
Speaker 1: today if you're listening on the day this episode publishes.
Speaker 1: Gerber established Chicago Society for Human Rights one hundred years
Speaker 1: ago in nineteen twenty four, and it was the first
Speaker 1: known organization for gay rights in the United States.
Speaker 2: We mentioned in this episode that it followed one on
Speaker 2: Compton's Cafeteria riot. That riot happened a little less than
Speaker 2: three years before the more well known Stonewall Riot. There
Speaker 2: are also a couple of mentions in this episode of
Speaker 2: Magnus Hirschfeld in his Institute for Sexual Science. When we
Speaker 2: recorded this episode, we did not have an episode on
Speaker 2: him that came out afterward on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: and us a little bit of an.
Speaker 1: Update to the very end of this episode. In June
Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen, Henry Gerber's house was indeed designated a
Speaker 1: National Historic Landmark. Of this episode on Henry Gerber and
Speaker 1: Chicago Society where Human Rights came out on June twenty second,
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class,
Speaker 1: A production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V.
Speaker 1: Wilson. And we recently talked about the Compton's Cafeteria riots,
Speaker 1: and this is kind of a little bit of a
Speaker 1: dovetail on that, but we're time traveling backwards. We talked
Speaker 1: about in that episode, how you know a lot of
Speaker 1: people point to the Stonewall Riots as the beginning of
Speaker 1: the LGBT rights movement in the US, but of course
Speaker 1: there were things going on before that, as that episode
Speaker 1: on the Cafeteria Riot pointed out, and even before that,
Speaker 1: and there were certainly gay people here long before that,
Speaker 1: and there were, in fact LGBT rights organizations trying to
Speaker 1: pop up, probably my earlier than you, suspect. And today
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the man who started, ever
Speaker 1: so briefly, the first such organization in the US, at
Speaker 1: least the first that we know of, and that took
Speaker 1: place more than four decades before Stonewall. So just a
Speaker 1: heads up on this one, particularly if you're listening with
Speaker 1: younger listeners. We are going to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about some legal issues that came up involving specific sex acts,
Speaker 1: So just keep that in mind as you listen to
Speaker 1: this one, maybe preview it if you think your younger
Speaker 1: listeners might not be ready for that. But right out
Speaker 1: of the gate, I feel like we have to mention
Speaker 1: that today's subject, who is Henry Gerber, can be a
Speaker 1: little bit of a difficult character in LGBT history. While
Speaker 1: he definitely wanted to push back against anti gay legislation,
Speaker 1: he was not so open to bisexuals. He was not
Speaker 1: particularly accepting of lesbians or basically any of the people
Speaker 1: we would put under the LGBT umbrella today that we're
Speaker 1: not gay men. He was an introvert, He was very
Speaker 1: serious man. Some people describe him as curmudgeonly or cantankerous,
Speaker 1: not really a charmer, and he would often look down
Speaker 1: his nose even at other gay men, saying that they
Speaker 1: were too frivolous and that they were not forward thinking
Speaker 1: enough about the place of the gay man in society.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, he really spearheaded this important,
Speaker 1: though often overlooked effort to improve the rights of gay
Speaker 1: citizens and secure some sort of safety for them. So
Speaker 1: we're talking about Henry Gerbert today, keep in mind he's
Speaker 1: a little bit tricky in some ways. He was born
Speaker 1: as of Henry Ditmar. On June twenty ninth of eighteen
Speaker 1: ninety two, he and his family left their home in
Speaker 1: Bavaria to set out for the United States, and they
Speaker 1: arrived at Ellis Island in nineteen thirteen. At that point,
Speaker 1: Henry was twenty one, and once they had been processed
Speaker 1: by immigration officials, the family moved to Chicago, where they
Speaker 1: were hoping to join the significant German population there. Henry
Speaker 1: got a job pretty quickly working at Montgomery Ward in
Speaker 1: the mail order department.
Speaker 2: As is probably obvious at this point, Gerber was gay,
Speaker 2: and a lot of the articles about him indicate that
Speaker 2: being homosexual got him institutionalized briefly, although the accounts aren't
Speaker 2: entirely clear about exactly when this happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's one that we mentioned this a lot in
Speaker 1: in some of our episodes, that there are some portions
Speaker 1: of history and usually it's the further back you go
Speaker 1: that it becomes the harder to actually find substantiated information.
Speaker 1: And he's very tricky in this regard. Outside of military records,
Speaker 1: a lot of what we have is kind of word
Speaker 1: of mouth and his retelling and some other retellings that
Speaker 1: have happened along the way, so some of the details
Speaker 1: get a little mushy meshy. But what we do know
Speaker 1: is that Henry enlisted in the US Army on January
Speaker 1: twenty sixth of nineteen fourteen, and it's believed that just
Speaker 1: after this is when he changed his name from Joseph
Speaker 1: Henry Ditmar to Henry Gerber, although this is another part
Speaker 1: where there's some haziness around the historical record and when
Speaker 1: he stopped using his birth name and switched to Gerber.
Speaker 1: Ditmar actually still appears on a nineteen seventeen draft card,
Speaker 1: although at that point Henry claimed exemption on that card
Speaker 1: as a conscientious objector, and it's possible that he purposely
Speaker 1: shifted the name back to his original Bavarian name in
Speaker 1: an effort to create some paperwork confusion over his status.
Speaker 1: That's purely speculation. I don't know based on what I've seen,
Speaker 1: and I haven't seen the actual card, if that was
Speaker 1: a pre printed card or if it's something he wrote in.
Speaker 1: But eventually, we do know that his military records cross
Speaker 1: referenced both names, both Dittmar and Gerber. During the early
Speaker 1: part of World War One, he was labeled as an
Speaker 1: enemy alien, and he was taken to an internment camp.
Speaker 1: Really sensationalist stories in the press, gossip circles about German
Speaker 1: spies in the United States caused a lot of German
Speaker 1: immigrants to be looked upon with suspicion, and he was
Speaker 1: no exception. After the war was over, Gerber re enlisted
Speaker 1: at the end of nineteen nineteen and he worked for
Speaker 1: the military as a printer and a proofreader, and he
Speaker 1: was shipped to Coblin's Germany as part of the US
Speaker 1: Army of Occupation in nineteen twenty and there he worked
Speaker 1: on the Amarok News, which is a daily paper that
Speaker 1: was published to keep American soldiers that were stationed abroad,
Speaker 1: particularly in Germany, informed and entertained, and it published everything
Speaker 1: from poems and short stories to the latest sports scores.
Speaker 1: While he was in Germany serving as a United States soldier,
Speaker 1: Gerber was exposed to that country's homosexual emancipation movement and
Speaker 1: as also to the Scientific Humanitarian Committee that was a
Speaker 1: critical part of that movement. And I'll give a little
Speaker 1: background on the German homosexual emancipation movements, and we're also
Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about Magnus Hirschfield who
Speaker 1: was also mentioned and in the Compton's Cafeteria episode. So
Speaker 1: the criminal code in Germany was amended in eighteen seventy
Speaker 1: one with the inclusion of what is called paragraph one
Speaker 1: seventy five, and that piece of legislation made it illegal
Speaker 1: for men to engage in sexual acts with one another.
Speaker 1: Twenty six years after paragraph one seventy five was adopted
Speaker 1: into law, the Scientific Humanitarian Community was founded in Berlin
Speaker 1: by Magnus Hirschfeld. One of the huge achievements of Hirschfield's
Speaker 1: life was the deconstruction of homosexuality from a biological perspective,
Speaker 1: sort of moving it away from being defined as a
Speaker 1: pathology and with a scientific approach to the issue of homosexuality,
Speaker 1: the Scientific Humanitarian Committee was making some progress towards LGBT rights,
Speaker 1: and they were making that progress right up until Hitler's
Speaker 1: rise and the Nazi Party's persecution of any perceived sexual devians.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Nazi Party actually burned down Magnus Hirschfeld's in
Speaker 2: Institute for Research into Sexuality. That's sort of been alluded
Speaker 2: to in a couple of episodes that we have talked
Speaker 2: about that have been on this subject, and we've never
Speaker 2: gone into a lot of detail, but yeah, the Nazi
Speaker 2: Party destroyed his facility and all the research that was
Speaker 2: in it. And we're just giving you kind of the
Speaker 2: brief and quick on that to kind of contextualize what
Speaker 2: happens next when Gerber returned to the US. We're going
Speaker 2: to talk about that influence after his time in Germany
Speaker 2: and his exposure to the homosexual emancipation movement, But first
Speaker 2: we are going to have a quick word from a sponsor.
Speaker 2: By the time Gerber returned to the US, he was
Speaker 2: well acquainted with the homosexual emancipation movement. He had spent
Speaker 2: his time in Germany reading magazines and other literature about
Speaker 2: the movement and also getting to know its leaders. He
Speaker 2: would kind of travel around Germany and go to lectures
Speaker 2: and really immerge himself in this whole ideology to learn
Speaker 2: about it. And he thought, if Germany could have this
Speaker 2: growing and thriving for the time homosexual culture that was
Speaker 2: willing to speak out for rights, why couldn't we have
Speaker 2: that in the US. So one of the things about
Speaker 2: the United States was that there was just a lack
Speaker 2: of uniformity in legislation across the country regarding sex. It
Speaker 2: had created a really tangled mess, and that was facing
Speaker 2: anyone who wanted to work toward the cause of rights.
Speaker 2: Being labeled as immoral in his home country for being
Speaker 2: homosexual just really seemed to be an incredible injustice to
Speaker 2: gerber Yeah, and I have to wonder about sort of
Speaker 2: the duality of it in terms of his home country.
Speaker 2: I put that word in the notes, and he considered
Speaker 2: the US his home country, even though he had come
Speaker 2: from Bavaria. And so it's kind of interesting that he
Speaker 2: then went back to Germany and saw them kind of
Speaker 2: working towards this progressive idea of rights, and then he
Speaker 2: went to his chosen home where he just did not
Speaker 2: have of that same kind of social movement going on.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of fascinating from that perspective. And when
Speaker 2: he returned to Chicago in nineteen twenty three after his
Speaker 2: three years in Germany, he started working as an employee
Speaker 2: at the US Postal Service, and he saw that Chicago
Speaker 2: had this growing gay subculture, which was secret in most
Speaker 2: areas of the city but fairly open in the bohemian
Speaker 2: neighborhood of Tower Town, which is in the near North
Speaker 2: Side area. And as he saw the gay and lesbian
Speaker 2: community growing, he wanted to create a way to protect
Speaker 2: these people's rights. Inspired by what he had seen in Germany,
Speaker 2: he launched his own plan to create an organization that
Speaker 2: would mimic the ones that were involved in Germany's emancipation movement.
Speaker 2: He knew that he could not do it alone, but
Speaker 2: it was really difficult to find other people who were
Speaker 2: willing to take the risks that were inherent in participating
Speaker 2: in this kind of mission. He tried to network with
Speaker 2: other activists, including birth control advocate Margaret Sanger, but he
Speaker 2: never managed to George and the alliances. His efforts to
Speaker 2: reach out to the gay men he knew of and
Speaker 2: business in Chicago were met pretty coldly at best. Prominent
Speaker 2: business people were just not willing to risk their jobs
Speaker 2: and families to fight for what they thought was definitely
Speaker 2: a losing cause.
Speaker 1: Yees, if it's not completely clear. At this point, pretty
Speaker 1: much all these people were closeted outside of Tower Town
Speaker 1: like nobody knew that any of these people were gay,
Speaker 1: and after a year of searching for allies, Gerber and
Speaker 1: six other men that he had managed to round up
Speaker 1: founded Chicago's Society for Human Rights in nineteen twenty four,
Speaker 1: applying for a charter to incorporate the group on December
Speaker 1: tenth of that year, and it was the first gay
Speaker 1: rights organization in the United States.
Speaker 2: The Society of Human Rights published a newsletter called Friendship
Speaker 2: and Freedom, which circulated to all of its members. Was
Speaker 2: a pretty small group, and not many people wanted literature
Speaker 2: that my out them to show up in their mailboxes.
Speaker 2: Postal inspectors cooperated with law enforcement and would report suspicious materials.
Speaker 2: At this point, pretty much all of this would have
Speaker 2: been considered obscene.
Speaker 1: Yes, all pretty much illegal. Nonetheless, Gerbert continued his work,
Speaker 1: and the mission of the Society was to educate the
Speaker 1: heterosexual community about homosexuality and to reform the laws that
Speaker 1: made homosexuality criminal. But they had to be very very
Speaker 1: careful about this.
Speaker 2: The charter for the group relayed this purpose this way
Speaker 2: quote to promote and protect the interests of people who,
Speaker 2: by reasons of mental and physical abnormalities, are abused and
Speaker 2: hindered in a legal pursuit of happiness, which is guaranteed
Speaker 2: them by the Declaration of Independence, and to combat the
Speaker 2: public prejudices against them by dissemination of factors according to
Speaker 2: modern science. Among intellectuals of mature age. The society stands
Speaker 2: only for law and order. It is in harmony with
Speaker 2: any and all general laws insofar as they protect the
Speaker 2: rights of others, and does in no manner recommend any
Speaker 2: acts and violation of present laws, nor advocate in any
Speaker 2: manner inimical to public welfare. You probably noticed that there
Speaker 2: is no mention there of homosexuality or gay rights. Remember,
Speaker 2: this was still a time when it was absolutely illegal
Speaker 2: to be gay, thanks to sodomy laws in Illinois. There
Speaker 2: were precedent cases that established oral sex as sodomy under
Speaker 2: the letter of the law, including one which judicially categorized
Speaker 2: fallatio as a crime against nature. This was not a
Speaker 2: time that it would have been safe for an organization
Speaker 2: intended to decriminalize homosexuality to be out and proud about it.
Speaker 2: They had to be very, very careful and kind of
Speaker 2: work in incremental, very slow steps. Unfortunately, their work did
Speaker 2: not last very long at all. Just eight months after
Speaker 2: it was founded, and with only two issues of Friendship
Speaker 2: and Freedom having been published, everything came to a crashing halt.
Speaker 2: In July nineteen twenty five, the wife of one of
Speaker 2: the co founders reported her husband to a social worker.
Speaker 2: After the couple's daughter said she had seen her father
Speaker 2: and other men performing seances and other strange behavior. The
Speaker 2: social worker she spoke with contacted police, and soon thereafter
Speaker 2: the Society for Human Rights, which was headquartered in Gerber's home,
Speaker 2: was rated. Gerber was arrested for deviant behavior. His typewriter,
Speaker 2: his diaries, and other papers were seized, and at this
Speaker 2: point in time, Illinois sodomy law stipulated a minimum one
Speaker 2: year prison term for anyone found guilty, with the maximum
Speaker 2: sentence of ten years, so this was quite a serious situation.
Speaker 2: Gerber always insisted that the story of his colleagues's behavior,
Speaker 2: as reported by his wife and related in the papers,
Speaker 2: was fabricated, but because the accused husband, al Menager, was
Speaker 2: confessed to being bisexual during police screening, no one cared
Speaker 2: that the facts of the news weren't entirely accurate. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this also came as a surprise to Gerber. He
Speaker 2: he had not even known, according to what I read
Speaker 2: that the members of his group, that any of them
Speaker 2: were married. So when this turned up and there was
Speaker 2: a wife that had reported one of them, remember, he
Speaker 2: wasn't really that keen on bisexuals, so This was a
Speaker 2: really kind of weird and awkward situation in addition to
Speaker 2: being dangerous and kind of a powder keg. Gerber was
Speaker 2: held by the police for several days. He was allowed
Speaker 2: a phone call the morning after his arrest, which he
Speaker 2: used to call work and explain his absence, and his
Speaker 2: supervisor kind of tried to help him out. He wrote
Speaker 2: up the situation as absent on leave in an effort
Speaker 2: to cover for Gerber. Henry endured three trials with his colleagues.
Speaker 2: The only evidence against him that was supposed to prove
Speaker 2: that he was homosexual was a powder puff that was
Speaker 2: allegedly found in his room.
Speaker 1: Ee. Yeah, that's widely believed to have been planted. Remember,
Speaker 1: he was not, by any accounts I have read, a
Speaker 1: cross dresser. He wasn't. He didn't dabble in any sort
Speaker 1: of alternate gender expression. So this powder puffs, it's very jarring.
Speaker 1: In the record, it seems very weird and out of place. However,
Speaker 1: the charges against him were eventually dropped, and that happened
Speaker 1: when a judge realized this was during the third trial
Speaker 1: that Gerber had been arrested without a warrant, but unfortunately,
Speaker 1: he had spent his entire savings up to this point,
Speaker 1: particularly on this third trial, hiring an attorney so that
Speaker 1: he could try to sort of save himself from this mess.
Speaker 2: The raid and the trials had been reported by the news,
Speaker 2: with the Chicago Examiner running a story about it under
Speaker 2: the headline strange sex cult exposed, So even though he
Speaker 2: had been released and the charges were dropped, he was
Speaker 2: still fired from his postal job in the wake of
Speaker 2: the incident for a quote conduct unbecoming a postal worker. Additionally,
Speaker 2: all records of the Society for Human Rights and their
Speaker 2: Friendship and Freedom Newsletter that had been seized in the
Speaker 2: red were destroyed, and for decades this important aspect of
Speaker 2: LGBT history was basically erased. There are no surviving copies
Speaker 2: of the Friendship and Freedom newsletter. A review of it
Speaker 2: was reprinted in the book Paris Gay nineteen twenty five,
Speaker 2: which came out in nineteen eighty one. The review describes
Speaker 2: the newsletter as moral and says that it included a
Speaker 2: poem by Walt Whitman and an essay about Oscar Wilde's
Speaker 2: practice of wearing a green carnation in his lapel. It's
Speaker 2: long been rumored, but not ever confirmed that Wild in
Speaker 2: his social circle would wear green carnations as a secret
Speaker 2: symbol of homosexuality. Yeah, so that's how that essay would
Speaker 2: have appeared in the newsletter. And in just a moment,
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about Henry's life after the raid
Speaker 2: and subsequent trials and how that put an end to
Speaker 2: the Society for Human Rights. But first we're gonna take
Speaker 2: a brief word from a sponsor. After all of these
Speaker 2: things that we've talked about, Henry Gerber was in need
Speaker 2: of a fresh start, and he chose to move to
Speaker 2: New York City. In nineteen twenty seven, he re enlisted
Speaker 2: with the US Army and then he would serve for
Speaker 2: seventeen years. He's also said to have been frustrated at
Speaker 2: this point with the lack of activism within what he
Speaker 2: called the Dorian crowd. He was also really exasperated at
Speaker 2: his perception that other gay men were too willing to
Speaker 2: accept the commonly held belief that homosexuality was a mental illness,
Speaker 2: and people were seemingly willing to accept a life of
Speaker 2: clandestine meetings in a state of fearfulness. Yeah, so he
Speaker 2: basically kind of kept on the downlow after this, but
Speaker 2: he did continue to write, so throughout the thirties, Gerber
Speaker 2: wrote articles for gay magazines. He used a pen name,
Speaker 2: and he also managed a correspondence club which was called Contacts,
Speaker 2: which would eventually become a communications network for gay men
Speaker 2: in the US. And he also wrote an essay called
Speaker 2: in Defense of Homosexuals which was published in The Modern Thinker,
Speaker 2: and he wrote that under the pseudonym Parasex. In nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty four, he even wrote an anti Hitler paper openly
Speaker 2: criticizing Hitler's treatment of homosexuals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which was kind of bold and a little bit dangerous,
Speaker 1: even written under a pen name. Then a few years
Speaker 1: down the road, there was a man named Manuel Boyfrank
Speaker 1: and he was a gay activist in California, and he
Speaker 1: reached out to Henry Gerber in the nineteen forties. He
Speaker 1: was hoping to get some assistance in creating a new
Speaker 1: movement to fight the oppression of homosexuals. And while Gerber
Speaker 1: was glad to help out through his writing, he did
Speaker 1: not want to attach his real name to the effort
Speaker 1: and take a real pivotal role. He just did not
Speaker 1: want to risk losing everything again. Throughout his military career,
Speaker 1: he dealt with harassment. He was blackmailed and beaten. His
Speaker 1: quarters at Governor's Island were searched by Army investigators in
Speaker 1: February nineteen forty two. They found no illegal materials or
Speaker 1: evidence of illegal behavior, but just the same he was
Speaker 1: held in the guard house for several weeks after the search.
Speaker 1: He was honorably discharged in nineteen forty five. In nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty a new gay rights organization formed called the Mattachine Society.
Speaker 1: We referenced that in the earlier episode about the Compton's
Speaker 1: Cafeteria riot. And in nineteen fifty two this group began
Speaker 1: publishing the first gay and lesbian national newsletter, which was
Speaker 1: called One. And when Gerber found out about One, he
Speaker 1: actually wrote to the magazine with an account of his
Speaker 1: efforts to start the Society for Human Rights and his
Speaker 1: attempts to get a previous newsletter out called Friendship and Freedom.
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, One was part of a First
Speaker 1: Amendment case heard by the US Supreme Court. This case
Speaker 1: was incredibly important because it eventually led to the ruling
Speaker 1: that publishing homosexual content did not mean a publication was
Speaker 1: inherently obscene. Yeah, prior to that, if you even said,
Speaker 1: or you know, suggested that two men might care for
Speaker 1: one another romantically. It was pretty much obscenity, whereas this
Speaker 1: drew that boundary of like, no, that's not automatically obscene,
Speaker 1: you guys. Years later, in nineteen sixty three one the
Speaker 1: magazine actually ran a full story about Gerber's efforts and
Speaker 1: the work that he was doing in the nineteen twenties,
Speaker 1: and it kind of reintroduced his part in the LGBT
Speaker 1: rights movement to inter Record.
Speaker 2: In his retirement years, Henry Gerber moved to the US
Speaker 2: Soldiers and Airman's Home in Washington, d C. He died
Speaker 2: there on December thirty first, nineteen seventy two, from pneumonia.
Speaker 2: He was eighty years old. In nineteen ninety two, posthumously,
Speaker 2: of course, Henry was inducted into the Chicago Gay and
Speaker 2: Lesbian Hall of Fame, and in February of twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: the house at seventeen ten North Carearley Court in Chicago,
Speaker 2: which is where Gerber lived when he founded the Society
Speaker 2: for Human Rights, was nominated as a National Historic Landmark.
Speaker 2: The National Historic Landmarks Committee unanimously approved the nomination. The
Speaker 2: next step in the process was for it to go
Speaker 2: to the National Park Service Advisory Board in May twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: We have not yet been able to find any information
Speaker 2: about how that went since that we are recording this
Speaker 2: literally immediately after the conclusion of May twenty fifteen, that
Speaker 2: they have not published their notes yet. Today it's June second,
Speaker 2: I think that we're recording. So if it's approved by
Speaker 2: the Advisory Board, the nomination would then move to the
Speaker 2: Secretary of the Interior for final approval.
Speaker 1: So yeah, his home may become a National Historic Landmark.
Speaker 1: It looks like it's on track for that to happen,
Speaker 1: but you never know what will happen in the process,
Speaker 1: so that's something to look forward to. We may have
Speaker 1: an update soon, which would be exciting. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the story of Henry Gerber. He is a tricky He's
Speaker 1: one of those people that he comes up for a
Speaker 1: long time. He was written about in sort of like
Speaker 1: here's the the LGBT rights activists you have never heard of.
Speaker 1: But even so, as we mentioned in the episode, there
Speaker 1: are some blank spots in there that are not always
Speaker 1: entirely clear. And because he's maybe not the most sort
Speaker 1: of charming character, I think he gets overlooked anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and.
Speaker 1: Some of his.
Speaker 2: Prejudices like continue to exist today, Like there is still
Speaker 2: a lot of anti bisexual sentiment and like a yes,
Speaker 2: a general trend of kind of assuming anyone who has
Speaker 2: a relationship with a person of the same sex is
Speaker 2: gay or lesbian and that bisexuality is not a thing.
Speaker 2: Like there's a lot of those ideas continue to crop
Speaker 2: up today, years and years later after his death. So
Speaker 2: it's that's not a I didn't go away, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, within any community, there is always fracturing,
Speaker 2: and he was, you know, kind of one of the
Speaker 2: first people that that exemplifies some of that going on,
Speaker 2: and it's easy to go, oh, well, that's how it
Speaker 2: was in the twenties, which again I always just feel
Speaker 2: like we have to pause and go this was something
Speaker 2: he was working on in the nineteen twenties, so much
Speaker 2: earlier than we really think about this movement. But a
Speaker 2: lot of those issues still echo today. So it's kind
Speaker 2: of an interesting touchstone and we can kind of see
Speaker 2: the mirror of that continuing. Thanks so much for joining
Speaker 2: us on this Saturday. Since this episode is out of
Speaker 2: the archive, if you heard an email address or a
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Speaker 2: show that could be obsolete now.
Speaker 1: Our current email address.
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