1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:01,360 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. 2 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty nine, he moved into the live rockfield. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 2: He joined the Delaney and Bonnie Band, and from there 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: into the Joe Cocker, Mad Dogs and Englishmen, and from 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: there he was a founding member of Derek and the Dominos. 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: He's a co author with Eric Clapton of Layla. He 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: went back to Hollywood and continued his work as a 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: session player Number one Records with Harry Nielsen, Carly Simon, Steely, 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: Dan Gordon, Lightfoot, but the illness just grew and grew. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast with your host, 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: Buzz Night. Today, Buzz is joined by a previous multi 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: visit guest of Taking a Walk, author and music critic 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: Joel Selvin. Joel is the author of many critically acclaimed 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: music history books, including Altamont, and his new book is 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: called Drums and Demons, The Tragic Journey of Jim Gordon. 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: Jim Gordon is considered one of the greatest drummers of 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: all time, known for his work with a who's who 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: of artists Derek and the Dominos, Tom Petty Steely, Dan 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: John Lennon, George Harrison, and many more. Jim's Tragic Madness 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: and the tragedy which led him to a life in prison, 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: a prison hospital, and his ultimate sad passing. It's an 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: incredible story. Let's join Buzz Night next with Joel Salvin. 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 3: Well, Joel Salvin, Welcome to another edition of Taking a Walk. 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: You're a three time champion. I don't know if you 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: know that or not. 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: It's good to be back, Buzz. 27 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: You were on with our first get to Know You 28 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: episode and in that one you brought up Jim Gordon, 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 3: the subject of this interview and your new book, and 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 3: then of course you did our second tribute to Tom 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: Petty that you were so fabulous, so so great to 32 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: have you on, my friend. Thanks Buzz. So for those 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: that don't know the story, tell our audience about why 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: Jim Gordon is considered the greatest drummer of all time 35 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: and his ultimate tragedy. 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: Yes, it is a terribly tragic story. Jim was probably 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 2: one of the greatest drummers in pop music during his lifetime, 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: but he suffered from severe mental illness and it ultimately 39 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: undermined his career and led him down a very dark viral. Ultimately, 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: he ended up murdering his mother and spending the rest 41 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: of his life in jail. It's a complicated and dark story, 42 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 2: but it has a very sunny beginning. He discovered drums 43 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 2: as a young man who is like eight years old, 44 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: and his life came alive. He became this extraordinary young 45 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: drummer who took all the training and all the different 46 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 2: kinds of education and lessons. And when he left high 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: school the next day he went on the road with 48 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: the Everly Brothers. So he started up pretty high up 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: the ladder. He moved into recording sessions in Hollywood and 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: he played on records by Sonny and Chaer, the Beach Boys, 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: Glenn Campbell, all the Phil Speckner records. He was one 52 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: of the most successful session drummers in Hollywood. That's him 53 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: on Good Vibrations, that's him on the Beat Goes On. 54 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: That's him on Wichita Linemen. In nineteen sixty nine he 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: moved into the live Rockfield. He joined the Delaney and 56 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: Bonnie Band, and from there into the Joe Cocker, Mad 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: Dogs and Englishmen, and from there he was a founding 58 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: member of Derek and the Dominos. He's a co author 59 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 2: with Eric Clapton of Layla. He went back to Hollywood 60 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: and continued his work as a session player Number one 61 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: records with Harry Nilsen, Carly Simon, Steely, Dan Gordon Lightfoot. 62 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 2: But the illness just grew and grew, and by nineteen 63 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: seventy five he was in and out of mental hospitals 64 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: and getting treatment for drug and alcohol addiction. And by 65 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight he was washed up as a musician. 66 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: He couldn't even play music anymore. And then in nineteen 67 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: eighty three he was arrested and went to jail. It's 68 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: an incredibly sad story and buzz. The most amazing thing 69 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: to me was to learn how common schizophrenia is. Schizophrenia 70 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: occurs in one in one hundred in the general population. 71 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: By comparison, multiple sclerosis is one in ten thousand. So 72 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 2: all those people you see out on the streets sleeping 73 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: in the gutters and stuff their heads are buzzing with voices. 74 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 2: They're massive numbers of schizophrenics out there, and fifty percent 75 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: of the schizophrenics can't be helped at all. They are 76 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: fifty percent sliding scale. Some people leave fully productive lives, 77 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: many to struggle every day. Jim had among the most 78 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: severe symptoms you can have, and at the same time, 79 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: he had all the money he needed to get the 80 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: best medical care available, and that wasn't very good. It 81 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: did not help him. He really did not experience any 82 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: great benefit from the treatments. And of course, in the 83 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: seventies there were very primitive treatments. The psychiatric drugs were 84 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: super powerful, primitive stuff. The understanding in the recovery community 85 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: of what we now know is dual diagnosis, which is 86 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: you're addicted and you have organic mental illness. It's a 87 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: very complicated braiding of of diseases, and they didn't know 88 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: anything about that back then. So Jim was sort of 89 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: by himself, scared, lonely, and crowded with toxic, pernicious voices 90 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 2: who commanded him. If he did not follow their instructions, 91 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: they would give him headaches that would leave him crawling 92 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: on the floor wetting his pants. This is well known 93 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 2: to psychiatrists. They call it the electric hat band. But 94 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: for Jim, it was years and years of torture, and 95 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: chief among the voices in his head that were torturing 96 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: him was the voice of his mother. His mother was 97 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: a fine person. She was maybe a little controlling, but 98 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 2: she was a medical professional. She was a nurse, She 99 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: was a loving mother. She cared very much for Jim 100 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: and his older brother, and she did not understand the 101 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: role she played in Jim's mental illness, where she was 102 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 2: a voice hectoring him, telling him not to eat, not 103 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: to sleep, not to play music, and if he didn't, 104 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: she would give him these headaches. So that was his struggle, 105 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: was trying to get on top of these voices that 106 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: were controlling them, and he could never get there. 107 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: And I know you do not want to bury this 108 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: headline here, which we will come back to, but the 109 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 3: fact of the matter is virtually an entire industry turned 110 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: its back on this man when this terrible tragedy happened. 111 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: So the rock music scene in the seventies buzz was 112 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: very hospitable to drug addicts, alcoholics, sexual deviance, all kinds 113 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: of reprobates, but they didn't know how to deal with 114 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: anybody who was actually mentally ill. And Jim had to 115 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: hide his symptoms because he continued to work in this 116 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: professional world at a very high level. So he came 117 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: to work with a mask on it, and that mask 118 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: was a genial guy with an easy smile, a very 119 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: compliant guy who was there to do the work that 120 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: you wanted him to do. That mask would slip. On 121 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: occasions he knocked his girlfriend unconscious, readA coolidge. Uh, it 122 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: came out of nowhere. It wasn't like he was a 123 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: turner trying to control his girlfriend and and and then 124 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: commanded her. It was just some eruption that even he 125 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: didn't understand. This happened with other on other occasions when 126 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 2: this these this tremendous inner life, this turmoil, this this 127 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: roiling set of voices and forces inside him would just 128 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: emerge and and and break loose, and then he would 129 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: have to pull them back in and put his face 130 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: on and go back to work. And there's there's lots 131 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 2: of stories of like Jim having these eruptions that people 132 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: just didn't understand. In the middle of a recording session, 133 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: Dean Parks, the session guitarist, is in a Johnny River session. 134 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: It's almost over, and Jim starts yelling at Dean, stop 135 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: that stop, that stop, that I know what you're doing, 136 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: and everybody in the moves. What's he talking about? He says, yes, 137 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: I know what you're doing. You're making my hands move. 138 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: I'm missing the first beat on every bar, and the 139 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: whole room went quiet, like what is he talking about? 140 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: And Johnny Rivers, who was also the producer as well 141 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: as the artist, he says, oh, come on, Jim Dean 142 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: can't do that. From over there, counted off, let's go, 143 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 2: and Jim goes, oh okay, one, two, three, four, and 144 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: they go into the track. But nobody understood that what 145 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: was going on in his head was voices yelling at. 146 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: Him, and. 147 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: They didn't know. They just thought it was very strange, 148 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: and he started not getting the same type of session 149 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: calls and the he's brought him down. 150 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: Now. Back then, it was I guess fairly common if 151 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: somebody like Jim was checked into a hospital that he 152 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 3: could check himself out pretty quickly, which he did frequently. 153 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: Is that correct? 154 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: Yep? Yep. It's called AMA against medical advice. You're never 155 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: a prisoner in a hospital, and you can leave any 156 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 2: time you want. And Jim would check in, he would 157 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: get his drug regimen straightened out, and then he would 158 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: check back out. The first time he went into a 159 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: mental hospital, he was there for a couple of months 160 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: and he received no benefit whatsoever, and he checked out, 161 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: went home and tried to commit suicide. This went on 162 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: quite a bit there were other suicide attempts. There are many, 163 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: many hospital admissions, maybe fifteen or more over the course 164 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: of several years. And there were some people that understood Jim, 165 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: and we're able to help to some degree, but not 166 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: in any lasting way. And they didn't have the tools 167 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: that they do now. They didn't have the understanding that 168 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: they do now. And by the way, at this point, 169 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: still schizophrenia is a very mysterious disease. They don't know 170 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: what causes us, they don't know what makes it go 171 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: into remission. They don't understand so much about it. And 172 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 2: back then it was the dark ages. 173 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: So do you have a sense that if he was 174 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: in this position alive today, that the treatment could have 175 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: possibly saved him. 176 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: No. 177 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: I believe that Jim's case was so severe that there 178 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: was no backing him down from it. He was gripped 179 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: by the most extreme kind of schizophrenia, and eventually it 180 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: really left him unable to do much of anything. He 181 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: spent endless days and nights uh in his apartment, ordering 182 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: food be delivered and using drugs and and and drinking alcohol, 183 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 2: which were the only effective treatment he could find. Alcohol 184 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: would would lower the voices, and and and cocaine. Cocaine 185 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: would regulate his dopamine, so that I mean, it is 186 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: a catastrophic situation for him. He was tortured every day 187 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: and the only answers were bad answers. 188 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: Now, you paint a picture of the era with all 189 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: the musicians and the drugs and the debauchery that even uh, 190 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: you know, a former Catholic boy like me, was shocked 191 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 3: at in terms of the depth of the derangement that 192 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: was going on so much in this uh, in this business. 193 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 3: How were you able to paint this in such a 194 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: detailed fashion where first of all, I felt like I 195 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: was a fly on the wall inside many of these 196 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 3: parties and backstage events. How were you able to get 197 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: that amazing detail and then talk about the level of 198 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: debauchery among many of our favorite artists. 199 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 2: Well, drugs and alcohol were a common part of the 200 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: rock scene in the late sixties and early seventies, and 201 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: there was no sense of there being any downside to that. 202 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: It was just a party and it was ongoing. It 203 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: was LSD and Hot and Who's and then cocaine and 204 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: eventually for Jim and the guys from Derek and Damo's 205 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: Heroin too. So there was no real barrier to the 206 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: drug culture in the rock scene at that point. There 207 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: was not a lot of recovery. There was not a 208 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: lot of information, there was not a lot of experience, 209 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: and it was just it's just suffused the whole rock scene. 210 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: And somebody like Jim, who came out of a very 211 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: conservative southern California background, on the road with Joe Cocker 212 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: and Mad Dogs and Englishmen, he was able to really 213 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: engage his appetite for drugs and alcohol for the first time. 214 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: Jim Keltner, the other drummer and Mad Dogs, talks about 215 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: Jim coming backstage with a handful of owsley lsd tabs 216 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: and Keltner taking a little piece of one and Jim 217 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: swallowing a whole big pill. And they go out to 218 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: play and Keltner can't even remember what rhythm is. He 219 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: sits behind his drum set with his hands in his lap, crying, 220 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: and Jim is next to him, playing away like crazy, 221 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: screaming at him play play Clay and Kelner finally just 222 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: left the stage. So Jim had this enormous appetite for 223 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: a capacity for drugs, and I'm sure that has to 224 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: do with his electrochemical setup in his brain. Because this 225 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: applied not only to illegal drugs, but it applied to 226 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: legal drugs. His psychiatrist told me that he'd made a 227 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: mistake in prescribing Jim a very powerful set tranquilizer called 228 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: how Law, and he wanted him to have forty five 229 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: milligrams of halidal and three point fifteen milligram doses during 230 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: the day, and it got confused at the hospital and 231 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: they gave him three forty five milligram doses. And when 232 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: the doctor shows up and finds out that there's been 233 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: this mistaken dosage, he's freaked. He thinks Jim's going to 234 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: be a zombie, and he goes to see Jim. So 235 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: it's not a zombie. He's not even had any therapeutic 236 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: effect from those drugs. Disease in his head. This chemical setup, 237 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: which also had something to do with what an incredible 238 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: intuitive drummer he was, It created a hell scape for him. 239 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: He could pursume massive amounts of drugs and alcohol without 240 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: any apparent effect, and the disease just kept coming at him, 241 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: just kept coming, and that was all that was his 242 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: only tools that were effective. He took all this the 243 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: psychiatric medicine too, the tranquilizers and the antipsychotics, but you 244 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: know it wasn't as effective as the vodka and the cocaine. 245 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a 246 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 247 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: You talked to so many people in you know, researching 248 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: the book along list of folks. Now, did you ever 249 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: first personally encounter Jim in your career? 250 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: Jim was not communicative. We spent him, send him a 251 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: bunch of letters and some books, and he never replied 252 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: from prison. I think that older schizophrenics tend to even 253 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: be more withdrawn, and the people that I talked to 254 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: who served time with Jim describe a fairly reclusive figure 255 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: who didn't spend a lot of time on the yard 256 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: and didn't socialize a lot. So no, never met Jim. 257 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: I did have the benefit of a series of interviews 258 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: that he did in eighty eight and eighty nine while 259 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: he was in jail with some people who had his 260 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: cooperation on a book project that never really amounted anything, 261 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: And thirty years later I was able to find those 262 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: people and acquire their research. So I have a lot 263 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 2: of Jim interviews with Jim and they had complete access 264 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: to his medical records, his diaries and all his associates, 265 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: and so that was real helpful. 266 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were two in particular, I guess, you know, 267 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: sit downs that people had that were pretty striking. That 268 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 3: Rolling Stone when the voices took over article and Martin 269 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: Bow I believe is his name from the Washington Post 270 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: banging the drums slowly. Those were incredible, you know, just 271 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: unbelievable depictions of what was going on at that time 272 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 3: in his life, you. 273 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: Know, pretty stark. They did not have the details of 274 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: the background of Jim's illness, and all they knew is 275 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: that he was in jail from killing his mother and 276 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: that he'd been diagnosed as a schizophrenic. They didn't know 277 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: anything about the fifteen hospital admissions or the years and 278 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: years and years of torture, and the real details of 279 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: his struggle against this mental illness is missing from both 280 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 2: those accounts. They're very, very much the kind of sensational 281 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: journalism should I try to avoid in my career At 282 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: the Chronicle, They skim across the top of the situation, 283 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: They focus on the sensational, and they never get under 284 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: the hood of it. And showed Jim any compassion. He's 285 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: just a killer who killed his mother brutally, and they 286 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: never look into his troubled heart. 287 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 3: Fair to say they were early examples a clickbait, right. 288 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: Well, of course, that's long before the Internet. The Washington 289 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: Post article came about when Jim won the Grammy in 290 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: ninety three for Layla. I mean, he clapped and had 291 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: that big unplugged album and he came home with a 292 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: bunch of Grammys, including one for re recording of Laila, 293 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: which Jim is a co author. Got the award. So 294 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: the Washington Post guy went to the prison and interviewed Jim, 295 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: and it was kind of there. I think the guy 296 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: said it was like a radio signal that came and went. 297 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 2: The Rolling Stone guy, I don't think he interviewed Jim. 298 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: I think he interviewed the lawyers and some of the 299 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: people associated with the case, but I don't think Jim 300 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 2: ever enterviewed him. 301 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 3: So going back to Derek and the Dominoes, that one 302 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: story where basically they ended up trashing the hotel room 303 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 3: and breaking glasses and just that, you know, prior to 304 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 3: them embarking on the US tour. I mean, boy, what 305 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 3: an absolute mess that was. Certainly, and then ultimately the 306 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 3: friction you know that was existing between Jim and the 307 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 3: other band members, Jim and Clapton to some degree. Is 308 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: it fair to say that Jim's tragic situation was part 309 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: of the end of Derek and the Dominoes. 310 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: No question. Schizophrenics have a real problem with sustaining personal relations. 311 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 2: That was an issue all through Jim's life. He very 312 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: much sought romantic partners, but he couldn't maintain them. I 313 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 2: could never find anybody who thought Jim was of Jim 314 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: as a close friend. You know, people have spent hundreds 315 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: of hours with him in the recording studio who didn't 316 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: know he was married and had a daughter or anything 317 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: about him. That's typical of the mentally ill that he 318 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: was there for the drumming, he was holding his own 319 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: and everything else he kept hidden behind a facade. That's 320 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: how he had to operate. 321 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: Yet his child support record during this was unblemished. Is 322 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 3: that correct? 323 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 2: Well, he was very specific about certain tasks, paying his bills, 324 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: keeping his financial records. His father had been an accountant, 325 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: and so yeah, there were details to life that he 326 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: managed very specifically, and he could pay his child support, 327 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: but he couldn't remember to pick her up at school. 328 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: He had real trouble being a father and knowing how 329 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: to do that, and he left his daughter with a 330 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: lifelong trauma. She was very close to her grandmother. She 331 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 2: was fourteen when the crime happened, and it was years 332 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: and years and years before she could even bring herself 333 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: to look at her relationship with her father. 334 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 3: And he did try to reach her while he was 335 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: in prison. Is that correct? 336 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: Constantly? Yeah, he hadn't seen her at that point since 337 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: she was about ten years old. He'd been estrange from 338 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 2: his mother. His mother was the access to his daughter. 339 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: He really didn't talk to his first wife, and he 340 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 2: thought that he saw her in court. He couldn't even 341 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: be sure if that was her, and he would write 342 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: her letters and she did not answer them. She was 343 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 2: traumatized by this. Didn't have any other way to deal 344 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: with it but just to shut him down. 345 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 3: And Jim had a lot of conspiracy theories in his head. 346 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: Obviously with the voices, wasn't one of them that he 347 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 3: thought his mother killed Paul Lynn and Karen Carpenter. 348 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: Yes, he was convinced that his mother had all kinds 349 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,239 Speaker 2: of evil connections since she was a nurse. He was 350 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: certain that she controlled all the doctors that he saw. 351 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: There was one particular doctor he was fairly certain was 352 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: out of her control. But the others, you know, no, 353 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: they were controlled by her. And that his whole hospital 354 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: admissions he blamed on her. That he would go into 355 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: the hospital because she wanted him to, and then when 356 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: he got LuSE of her voice in the hospital, he 357 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: would check out again. And he thought that was her game, 358 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 2: that she controlled all this medical world that he was in. 359 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: It's we can't understand the reality that Jim Gordon lived 360 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 2: in because it's an entirely separate world from the one 361 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: that you and I live in. 362 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 3: Buss, Let's celebrate this in this body of work here 363 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 3: for a bit, because it's so outstanding. I mean, every 364 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 3: time you turn around and I read another page, there's 365 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 3: something else I discovered that he was part of, like 366 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: the one that you know, I went, oh my god, 367 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: was I mean Helen ready, I am woman? I mean, 368 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: I mean this guy was everywhere. 369 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: He I think made Midnight at the Oasis a hit 370 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: record from Ria Maldall with that little samba groove. His 371 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: ultimate masterpieces You're So Vain with Carly Simon. He was 372 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: the third drummer to tackle that track, and he did 373 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: sixty takes in five hours, and I'd say he nailed 374 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 2: that one sundown with Gordon Lightfoot, Ricky don't Lose that 375 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 2: number with Steely Dan. A couple of my favorites Grazing 376 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: in the Grass by the Friends of Distinction, where he 377 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: shows a boogaloo beat that just drives that record from 378 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 2: beginning to end, and BW. Stevenson's My Maria, where he 379 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: has a drum part that's so deeply embedded in the 380 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: composition of the record, I can't imagine another approach to it. 381 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: And I think that the drum part is the crucial 382 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: ingredient to making that record a hit and. 383 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: Then tell the story of God only knows how creative 384 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 3: he was in his participation. 385 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 2: There, well he was. Hal Blaine was the great studio 386 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: drummer in Hollywood. He took Jim under his wing and 387 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: introduced him right away to Brian Wilson. So Jim was 388 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: doing Beach Boys sessions starting in pet Sounds. He Hal 389 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: did most of the hit drumming, but Jim would bring 390 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: in bells and marimbas and very assorted percussion and he 391 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: was goofing around on a break with an orange juice bottle, 392 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: plastic orange juice bottle, going pop pop pop clop pop, 393 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: and Brian caught wind of it and they got a 394 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: razor blade and they trimmed up four different orange juice bottles, 395 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: so each one was a different note, and he plays 396 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: the orange juice bottles on God only knows. They followed 397 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 2: Powle Blaine's drum part klop clop clop, clop, clop clop 398 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: clop clop clop, and next time you hear it, you'll 399 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 2: hear the orange juice bottles. They're very present on the track. 400 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, that's the sort of playful, inventive thing that 401 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 2: Jim was just brilliant at. I mean, in the recording studio, 402 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: this guy was a genius. Outside the recording studio, everything 403 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: was difficult for Jim. Everything. 404 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 3: And then he worked with Frank Zappa. Frank called him 405 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 3: Skippy right because he would look like the ye. 406 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 2: He thought he was so all American, you know, I 407 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: asked skip peak. Yeah, and he was playing some of 408 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: the most dance it complicated music Zappa did. It was 409 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: the Grandois Zoo Orchestra, twenty piece band that Zappa put 410 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: together after his accident took him out for a year, 411 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: and he did big shows in Europe, you know, football 412 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: stadiums and stuff like that, and still didn't make any 413 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: money on the tour. But that very complicated, intense music, 414 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: out of which came the title track to the album Postrophe, 415 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: which is Jim Jack Bruce from Cream on bass and 416 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: Frank and his other guitar player just jamming in New York. 417 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: So you know, Jim's on Frank Zappa Records, He's on 418 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: John Denver Records. He's I mean, there isn't anything the 419 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: guy couldn't play. 420 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 3: So when we talked previously, you mentioned one person that 421 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: stuck with me that sort of came to care about 422 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 3: Jim when all this happened. It was Jackson Brown. And 423 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 3: are there any folks that you spoke to in your 424 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 3: research for the book who maybe felt some regret that 425 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 3: they couldn't or didn't do anything to try to help him. 426 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: I ran across so many different reactions. A lot of 427 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 2: people didn't want to talk to me at all, They 428 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: didn't want to put anything on that at all. Nope, 429 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: not talking about that. And then there were people that went, well, 430 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: Jim Gordon. I loved him. What a tragedy. I mean, 431 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: Van Dyke Parks told me, Oh, Jim was the Esprie 432 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: de corps. Uh Lenny Warnicker, the president Warner Brothers Records. 433 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: Thought he was the most wonderful character. And and his 434 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: wife and and and he were just such sweet all 435 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: American people. 436 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: Uh. 437 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: Jim Keltner Kellner wept during our interview. Wept and the 438 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: wipe chair off his cheeks and everything. I mean, there's 439 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: a lot of love out there for Jim, and there 440 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: were a lot of people who felt like you say that, 441 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: you know, was there something that could happen. His best 442 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: friend in life was Mike Post. Mike Post and he 443 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 2: were in high school together. They started out in the 444 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: music business. Mike had first didn't want to have anything 445 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: to do with the book. After Jim died, he changed 446 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: his mind and we talked, and we talked extensively, and 447 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 2: he read the book just recently and he called me 448 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: up and congratulated me on the book. He was pretty 449 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: blown away by it. And what he said was that 450 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: he had come to learn from reading the book that 451 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: there was nothing he could have done to help Jim, 452 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: and he had spent his life, feeling guilty about not 453 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: being able to help Jim, but reading the book, he 454 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 2: realized there was nothing he could do. 455 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: So doctor Vickery, do if I pronounced his name right. 456 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a professional h psychiatrist testifier. He's in a 457 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: lot of the famous Los Angeles trials. He never met Jim. 458 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: He just studied the records and and testified. There were 459 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: psychiatrists that testified who did meet and treat Jim. One 460 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: of my I had a long interview with who had 461 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: treated Jim at U c l A and have some 462 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: success with Jim. That was about the time he went 463 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: to work with Jackson. 464 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 3: But the doctor, doctor Vickery, had a comment here which 465 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 3: I think is a you know, an underpinning to certainly 466 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: this tragedy. But I think correct me if I'm wrong 467 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: on why you want this story out there as well, 468 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 3: I'll read you the doctor's comment. He said the stress 469 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: of working in a highly pressurized business like music was 470 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 3: a contributing factor. So when you think of that comment 471 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: and you think of the music business today, talk about 472 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 3: the importance of getting this terrible story out of the shadows. 473 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: It's a really important story. But I got to take 474 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: some exception to doctor Vickery's comment, I mean when he 475 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 2: say that about a banker who was schizophrenic. Yeah, he 476 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: can say that about a banker too. It was not 477 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: a contributing factor. It was an ameliorating factor. His professional 478 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: life gave Jim a place where he could function, where 479 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: he could live, where he could breathe, where he was 480 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: free from the demons, because I'm sure that when he 481 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: played drums he didn't have voices in his head. He 482 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: was between the rhythmic and trainment and the report of 483 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: the drums. He was hypnot in a hypnotic state, and 484 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: he was there. He commanded that world. So no, I 485 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: don't agree with that statement by Vickary. It's a typical 486 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: sort of professional looking out on musicians stuff that doesn't 487 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: really understand what the role was. Similarly, people are like saying, well, 488 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: the drugs and alcohol were a contributing factor. I don't 489 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: think so. I think they were an ameliorating factor. I 490 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: think this guy was mentally ill and he had chemical 491 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: problems in his brain. I think the drugs and alcohol 492 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: helped him deal with it. I think the music was 493 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: the only safe place in his life. So no, doctor Vickory, 494 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: I don't agree. 495 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: But you do want this story out there, not only 496 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 3: to celebrate Jim Gordon's music, but to get mental health 497 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: issues out of the darkness. Correct. 498 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: It's so important that people understand this story. Jim has 499 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 2: never been treated fairly, He's never been shown any compassion, 500 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: and his extraordinary accomplishments have been buried in the process. 501 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, I wanted to elevate Jim's career and make 502 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: sure that people knew what a contribution this guy made. 503 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: I also wanted to bring into the light the struggle 504 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: mental illness, how pernicious it is, how dangerous, how irreversible 505 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: in many ways, and this story dramatizes it in such 506 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 2: an intense and vivid way. So it's really important. And 507 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: you know, there's a quote from Frank Zappa in the book. 508 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: I don't condone anyone who wants to go out and 509 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: commit a murder, but if this has to do with 510 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: chemicals in your brain, this could happen to anyone. And 511 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 2: that's the truth. Between Zappa's quote and that little epigram 512 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: that I opened the book with from Emily Dickinson about 513 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: one does not need to be a house to be haunted, 514 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: and we throw in the playlist of the records that 515 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: Jim played on. There's the story right there. 516 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 3: Amazing work, Joel Selvin, Drums and Demons. 517 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, guys. Amazing work. Jim Gordon, amazing work. I 518 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: feel like his story is so powerful and so effective 519 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: that all I had to do was just sort of 520 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: stay on the back of the bull and write it 521 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: to the bill. I may have written a good sentence 522 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 2: or two in the process, but really the power of 523 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: that book is Jim's story, and it's such tragic and 524 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 2: powerful story. 525 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 3: Thank you, Joel. Great work. 526 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 2: Thank you guys. 527 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a 528 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends 529 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking 530 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 531 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: and wherever you get your podcasts.