1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer 4 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: and our own legal beagle, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: He's so litigious, he's always just suan Willie and or 6 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 2: nilly left and or right now. 7 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: That's just you know, did you You know? I'm Ben 8 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: and that's uh. And you guys are gonna behave yourselves 9 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: because we're all friends here. I never sued no one, 10 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: not never, not know how. I don't even know where 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: to start. I read recently, just over this past week, 12 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: a story of about a guy who was a judge 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: who sued a family dry cleaner for fifty four million 14 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: dollars because, according to him, they lost a pair of 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: his pants. And this guy was so litigious that he 16 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: actually lost his job. My favorite line I almost texted 17 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: it to you guys, was they had to pause. This 18 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: is a quote from the article. They had to pause 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: court proceedings because the guy apparently got so emotional when 20 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: he was questioning himself about losing his pants that he 21 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: rucked down in tears. 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: Were the pants on him? At the time the dry cleaned. No, 23 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: were they magical pants? I'm confused, Yeah, lucky pantaloons? What well, 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: fifty million, that's that's absurd. 25 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: Surely he did not win. No, I mean, were they white? Unclear? 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: They I think they were just regular khakis. But the 27 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: thing is that guy was he did lose his job 28 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: as a judge, which he could have, because he weaponized 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: all his legal knowledge to just torture this family so 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: much that it's just like a mom, dad, and kid. 31 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: And he tortured them so much with appeals and YadA, YadA, YadA, 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: that they almost moved back to South Korea. So we know, 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: we know that you can be a bad faith actor 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: in the in the world of courts. And we're going 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: to talk today about something this this might end up 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: being a two parter, something that I think has fascinated 37 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: all of us, and it's something we started running into 38 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: a lot in the world of podcasting. I don't run 39 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: into this in my day to day life, you know, honestly. 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: It was it was in through podcasting and colleagues of 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: ours and you know, various deals and things like that, 42 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: that I started hearing the term ip thrown around and 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: for the longest time, I didn't really know what it 44 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: meant and never really bothered to ask. But it's a 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: real umbrella term, you know, and it refers to a 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: whole lot of stuff, innovation, software, engineering, entertainment. It's a 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: real catch all term that basically refers to the way 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: you can protect and or commodify and or sue on 49 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: behalf of an idea, and the way people treat ideas. 50 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Is such 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: an umbrella term. Intellectual property. I had the idea, this 52 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: idea is mine. But this applies to so many other things. 53 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: The manufacturing process for pharmaceutical substances, the algorithms used to 54 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: assess your credit score, even words like Google, or the 55 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: brand or brand logos like the Golden Artist McDonald's. I'll 56 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: never forget my first brush, my first serious brush with IP, 57 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: getting into legal trouble for it. I got a pretty 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: strident letter when I was working on that animated show 59 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: for kids called Stuff of Genius about inventors. And you 60 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: guys have heard this story. The people who own Frisbee, 61 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: the trademark Frisbee, they are hardcore about it. If it's 62 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: not a Frisbee brand Frisbee, it can only be called 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: a flying disc. I'm out here trying to like tell 64 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: eight year olds about how Frisbees came to be and 65 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: I got to cease and desist or a C and 66 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: D in the business. 67 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, and it will you know, we'll probably get 68 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: into this a little bit. But it's also sometimes a 69 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: brand or a trademarked you know, concept can become so 70 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: ubiquitous that it becomes a catchall tournament of itself, like 71 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: Xerox as they come, you. 72 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: Know, sort of. 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not even that people do that much 74 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: anymore because who holds paper? But you know, there was 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: a time where you'd say, xerox me this, you know, 76 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: document or whatever, and that would just refer to making 77 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: a photographic copy, a photocopy. I guess it's the but 78 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: Xerox is obviously the biggest brand, you know, in that world, 79 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: or you know, in certain parts of the country, Soda 80 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: pop is a coke we live in that part of 81 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: the country, or yeah, yeah, Frisbee exactly are BANDI next? 82 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: These are proprietary eponyms, and yeah, once that stuff comes out. 83 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: The problem is, no matter how many people you take 84 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: to court, you can't stop billions of people from just 85 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: collectively deciding to say, we google something when we Internet search. 86 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: You know, I encountered something that is pretty hilarious, and 87 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: I don't I don't know if this is actually protectable 88 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: IP or if this was actually registered as a trademark. 89 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 2: But are you guys familiar with the movie Bird Demic, 90 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: Shock and Terror. 91 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: I'm not. 92 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: It is a really really, really low budget hilarious It's 93 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: like like in the in the Zone of the room 94 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: the Tommy wisso filmic atrocity that has become kind of 95 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: a cult sensation. It's in that kind of vein of 96 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: just you know, so bad. It's kind of amazing in 97 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: and of itself that it even exists. It's got like 98 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a love story that seems like. 99 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: But then and also these like killer birds enter the scene, 100 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: and if you watch the trailer, the birds are just 101 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: clearly like badly photosh kind of after effects on and 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: they're like hovering while their wings are flapping and they're 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: kind of hovering in place. But in the trailer language 104 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: they refer to it as are the directors referred to 105 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: as the Master of Quote. The romantic thriller which is 106 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: followed by a trademark symbol. I don't know if that's 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: if that's sufficiently creative enough to warrant a trademark. We're 108 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: going to get into what some of the criteria are 109 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: for getting a trademark or you know, the ideas have 110 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: to have a certain amount of originality, they have to 111 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: just have a certain amount of novelness, et cetera. And 112 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 2: then there are other laws that can protect these you know, 113 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: rights of the intellectual property stakeholders. But then there are 114 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: also laws that keep it from getting a little too 115 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: you know, protected right. 116 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: And those laws are going to surprise you along the way. 117 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: At some point, I'm going to figure out the etymology 118 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: of legal beagle. But but but for now, yeah, let's 119 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: be aspirational. But for now, I think no. Maybe one 120 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: of the things are fellow ridiculous historians need knew from 121 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: the jump is that the concept of intellectual property or 122 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: IP is super duper old, way older than you might assume. 123 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: All the way back to five hundred BCE in a 124 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: Greek colony named Sibaris or Siberis, there were these chefs 125 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: who got who were granted legal monopolies for a year 126 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: at a time over the creation of certain dishes, so 127 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: they would say, look, you're the only guy who can 128 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: make the fig far fig nugan here, which was you know, 129 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: as we all know huge in Siberis at the time. 130 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: It's not a cookie, it's fruited cake. Everyone knows that. 131 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: There's a really cool book that collects a lot of 132 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: this history, and it's called The Genesis of American Patent 133 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: and Copyright Law by Bruce Bugby, which is a great name. 134 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: He highlights a couple of interesting cases, one involving Vitruvius, 135 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: who is said to have essentially codified the idea of 136 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: intellectual property theft. During a literary contest that he oversaw 137 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: in Alexandria where he was one of the judges, Truvius 138 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: essentially called out, you know, put on blasts some other 139 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: poets that he referred to as being false because he 140 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: believed that they had stolen the words and turns of 141 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: phrase of other writers, of other poets. 142 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: Which would be super easy at the time, because you know, 143 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: the only way to transmit things would be word of 144 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: mouth or writing it down and physically transporting it. So 145 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: these people could be stealing stuff and the audience would 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: never know unless someone brought it to their attention the 147 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: other times. Because in this book that you mentioned, Bugby 148 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: talks about three different cases of IP law and antiquity. 149 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: The second and third are also from Roman times. And 150 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: even though there's not a specific Roman law we can 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: point to about IP, we do know that Roman legal 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: experts discussed this in depth, you know, like, okay, if 153 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: there is a painting on a table, who owns the 154 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: painting versus who owns the table where the painting is on. 155 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: There's also the idea, like you said, literary piracy or plagiarism, 156 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: and people have been caught out reciting the works of 157 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: other folks. Then there are examples that might be a 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: little more unusual there because there was this huge network 159 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: of power structures monarchies in ancient times, granting privileges like 160 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: the royal patent, we make the king's shoes, you know, 161 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: and then franchises different favors. Budby has a cool distinguishment 162 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: between these. He says, look, the difference between systems of 163 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: intellectual property versus franchise is a royal favorite is that 164 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: the franchises, the royal co signs restrict access to intellectual 165 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: works ideas that are already in the public sphere, and 166 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: so they take something away from people. An inventor, on 167 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: the other hand, is just adding something new to the world. 168 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: They're not taking away anything that was already there. And 169 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: that's why you get to like authors would copy each 170 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: other all the freaking time, you know what I mean. 171 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: And AI is kind of just an iteration of that. 172 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: AI is the crack cocaine to the powder cocaine of 173 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: early plagiarism. Yeah, indeed. 174 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,599 Speaker 2: And it's interesting because I mean, one person's influence is 175 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: another person's theft, you know. And we know that artists 176 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: have borrowed from other artists throughout history, writers have borrowed 177 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 2: ideas and sometimes you know, whole concepts or even specific 178 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: turns of phrase from other writers. 179 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: And it is a little bit of a gray area. 180 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: And some of these intellectual property laws are designed to 181 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: kind of make that a little clearer, make those distinctions 182 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: a little clear, But it doesn't always work, you know, 183 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: because it is we do live in a world of 184 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: intersecting influences, so it's really kind of hard to sometimes say, 185 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: you know, and we see it a lot too, in 186 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: like lawsuits surrounding maybe music. You know, I believe it 187 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: was Ed Sharon just one a couple of lawsuits where 188 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: he was sued for supposedly, you know, lifting a melody 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: from like a famous R and B song. 190 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: Once I started that, Yeah, did Fogerty get wasn't Fogerty 191 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: and Creeden's clear Water? He got sued for music that 192 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: he had made because it sounded too much like himself, 193 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: too much like himself. 194 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: Point being, you know, once this when stuff like this, 195 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: when creativity starts to get too litigious, it really cracks 196 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: down on creativity and it makes people scared to like, 197 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: you know, try things. And so it's it's a line, 198 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 2: you know where you don't want people to be open 199 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: to outright theft and someone could like profit or benefit 200 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: from literally stealing someone else's idea. But also there's only 201 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 2: so many notes in the scale, there's only so many 202 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: you know, story archetypes, one hundred percent. So it is, 203 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of a delicate dance. But I 204 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: think this is a very interesting place to start with 205 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: these examples from antiquity. Another example comes from the birth 206 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: of the Florentine Republic, where you know, rulers were basically 207 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 2: passing out franchises and a lot of like you said, Ben, 208 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: there are these arbiters of kind of royal favors and privileges, 209 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: and Ben, this really reminds me a little bit at 210 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: least of our Snake Oil episode and the idea of 211 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: these royals essentially having carte blanche to say no, this 212 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: is fine, and this person's able to do it, and 213 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: they have, you know, exclusive rights to make this medicine 214 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: that we have deemed to be efficacious through our god 215 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: given ability to you know, do science, which. 216 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't the case it all. It turns out that 217 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: just like we talked about in our previous Vatican City episode, 218 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: that anytime you are in a society where just one 219 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: person can decide whether something is good or bad, you 220 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: run into ridiculous situations like okay, let's go back to 221 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: this idea of patent, very much related to intellectual property. 222 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: A patent sort of locks down the concept that this 223 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: is your idea and whatever happens with it later through 224 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: the work of others. You should get a piece of 225 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: that if it's based on your concepts. And this takes 226 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: us to the Republic of Florence. It's June nineteenth, fourteen, 227 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: twenty one. There's a guy named Felippo Brunelleschi. He's a 228 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: famous architect, and he gets this one of the first 229 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: statutes that protects the rights of a creator, and the 230 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: Republic of Florence says, Okay, you write something, you invent something. 231 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: We respect that it's your idea, and we're going to 232 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: give you incentives for this. And those incentives might very 233 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: case to case, but what they were also saying, one 234 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: of the incentives was if you sign up, if you 235 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: apply and you get a patent, we're going to crack 236 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: down on people who are trying to take your stuff. 237 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: And that's very appealing to people at this time, and 238 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: this becomes a huge piece of patent law as it 239 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: exists today, the idea that you will be compensated legally 240 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: if someone infringes upon your idea. And then the other 241 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: concept was a term limit on these inventors' rights. So 242 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: that's why you hear about things going out of copyright 243 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: in the world of literature. And for quite some time, 244 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: the mouse we all know who I'm talking about. The 245 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: mouse had some of the best copyright and IP lawyers 246 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: on the planet, stretching laws every time. Mickey mouse almost 247 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: got into public domain. 248 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: Well, and I think they finally run up against the 249 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: ceiling of all of those efforts they did. 250 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. 251 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: And i'd heard that they are considering pivoting from Mickey 252 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: being their primary you know, mascot to this little dragon 253 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: called Figment, which is pretty prominent at Disney World now, 254 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: the Figment, and I think he's been around for a while, 255 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: but there is like a statue of Walt Disney like 256 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: whole holding Figment, and he's certainly been in the cannon 257 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: for a bit. And there is a Figment ride with 258 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: I think it's John Cleeese or no Eric Idol, I 259 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: think for money Pythons as one of the narrators or 260 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: figures in that ride. 261 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem like they fully pivoted to that. 262 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 2: But I did read that a ways back, and I'm 263 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: interested to see how that goes. But yeah, I mean, 264 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: like through there, you know, just absolute army of lawyers, 265 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: intellectual property lawyers. I mean, you got to think about it, Disney, 266 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: you know, I was telling you guys off air that 267 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: I I mean and the fan watched the nineteen fifty 268 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: one Alice in Wonderland last night and it holds up. Man, 269 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: it looks absolutely modern, it's so cool, so innovative, and 270 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: of course they're going to protect that stuff. And like 271 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: Disney was just basically one of the first to market 272 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: with this kind of concept of like scaled, high level 273 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: glossy animation, and they innovate it with things like the 274 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: multiplane camera. So of course they're going to be protective 275 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: of that. But up to a point, you know, there 276 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: does come a point which it is like it is 277 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: kind of counterproductive to the public interest, right. 278 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and sometimes the public can get lost in 279 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: these conversations. Let's go to the English system. So over 280 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: in England they see what is happening in Italy and 281 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: they like a lot of the Italian ideas. So the 282 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: English system creates something called the Statute of Monopolies in 283 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: sixteen twenty four and the confusingly named Statute of ann 284 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: in seventeen ten. Right, the Statute of Monopolies says, if 285 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: you invent something, if you write something, you get the 286 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: monopoly over that for fourteen years, which was a long 287 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: time because you know, people died very frequently. Yeah, exactly. 288 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: This means we're not going to grant any exclusive rights 289 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: to non original ideas or to works that are already 290 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: in the public domain. So you can't be the person 291 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: who goes into court and says, I want a patent 292 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: on the book of job or tacos. That's my thing. 293 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: If you introduced them to tacos, you would have blown 294 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: their minds. That's that's that's a good point, bad example. 295 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: But the point is you can't just say son that's 296 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 2: already been out there, that's been styled on many times 297 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: by different parties. You can't just say dibbs, you know, 298 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: like because I just I'm because I said it first. 299 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 2: That's not how that works. You have to demonstrate, whether 300 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: through drawings or you know, uh, some sort of documentation, 301 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: that you, in fact are the innovator of a certain idea. 302 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: And I think you made a good point earlier, Ben, 303 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 2: that this was an incentive for creators. This probably this 304 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 2: type of law is what spurred a lot of innovation. 305 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: If it were, if there weren't protections, then it would 306 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: not really benefit creators to come out with this idea 307 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: because people more powerful than them could just snatch it 308 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: right out from front of them. 309 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: Not to say that didn't still happen, certainly did yeah, 310 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: and this is an excellent point you're making. We also 311 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: let's look at the Statute of ann because a lot 312 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: of scholars in the field consider this to be the 313 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: first modern copyright statute, and it's you can see where 314 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: they're coming from with it. It goes in part like this, 315 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: whereas printers, booksellers, and other persons have been lately frequently 316 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: taken the liberty of printing, reprinting, and publishing books without 317 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: the consent of or the authors and proprietors, to their 318 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: very great detriment and too often to the ruin of 319 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: them and their families. For preventing, therefore such practices for 320 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: the future, and for the encouragement of learned men to 321 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: compose and write, to use books, be it enacted. What 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: they're basically saying is everything we just said. That's the 323 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: best way to put it, like you, Like you mentioned, 324 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: there's this incentive, and I also want to shout out 325 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which pulls a lot of 326 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: this work together. And it doesn't take too long for 327 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: them to go to court. Right, there's that English. This 328 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: case comes up in English court Miller versus Taylor, and 329 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: eventually for a while, they say, Look, as a result 330 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: of this case in seventeen sixty nine, if you are 331 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: an author, you get to control what you get to 332 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: control the results of your work, right, you get to 333 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: control how what you made is used. And then that 334 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: goes into a more philosophical argument to whom does a 335 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: work of art belong? Does it belong to the creator, 336 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: does it belong to the audience? Does it belong to 337 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: the guy who buys it? I went to the Samurai 338 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: exhibit in the highchool. Dude, it is cool, but they 339 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: have so much stuff and there's a thing that freaked 340 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: me out a little learning about the proprietors. It's a 341 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: third generation art collector. So it's like this guy is 342 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: this son and grandson of full time art collectors and 343 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: this is such a small piece. Their full museum is 344 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: in Dallas. I suspect oil money, but like, does does 345 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: that stuff belong to them? And then or does it 346 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: belong to you know, they bought it. It's interesting. 347 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: Belong is also sort of a bit of a you know, 348 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 2: black box or a gray area kind of term, like 349 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 2: it belongs to the reader in terms of the way 350 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 2: they interpret it with their imagination. But it doesn't belong 351 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: to them, and that they can just like republish it 352 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: under their own name and then expect to collect residuals. 353 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: You know. 354 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: So, I mean it is a philosophical conversation, but it's 355 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: also like it again goes into how do you use 356 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 2: your influences as a creator, Like are you truly you know, 357 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: creating something new based on or influenced by something old 358 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 2: or is it so derivative that it is you know, 359 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: essentially plagiarizing. And and also there's like a whole you know, 360 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 2: industry based on creating derivative work and not in the 361 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: legal sense. Derivative works is an ip ternament of itself, 362 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: for like making a book, you know, out of a 363 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: TV show or vice versas, you know, adaptations like the 364 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: catch All. 365 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: There is derivative work. 366 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: But you know, there's the whole concept of mockbusters, you know, 367 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: where it's like instead of transformers, it's transmorphers. And they're 368 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: basically banking on the fact that some people might not 369 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: know the difference and rent the bad one, you know, 370 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 2: or the cheap one. It's I believe it's called the Asylum. 371 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: This is a company that makes these kind of you know, 372 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: instead of snakes on. 373 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: A plane straight some train. But they probably are. 374 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: They've got legal representation who are telling them just how 375 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 2: far they can push. 376 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: That line, like the Revengers instead of the Avengers. These 377 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: people ran the back aisles a blockbuster for many years. 378 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: Correct what we know about intellectual property or the way 379 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: it works out today, even though it does sound kind 380 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: of ridiculous and you can't get in ridiculous situations with it. 381 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: A lot of it comes from the United States, which 382 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: makes sense because one of the biggest US exports is 383 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: of course culture right movies, film, TV ideas, and the 384 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: IP system in the US comes from that Statute of 385 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: Monopolies I mentioned earlier sixteen twenty three, and it still 386 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: says the same thing. You get exclusive right to your 387 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: work for a limited time. This comes into something called 388 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Body of Liberties thanks to a guy named 389 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: Nathaniel Ward of Ipswich in sixteen forty one, and he said, look, 390 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: we're not going to allow anybody to have monopolies, but 391 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: if you make a new invention and it's overall something 392 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: that we all think is a good idea, then you 393 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: can have some exclusivity for a short time. The first 394 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: guy does this is a guy named Joseph Jenks Sr. 395 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: Which sounds weirdly Appalachian to me. He has given a 396 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: fourteen year patent for the invention of not the first 397 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: water mill engine, but a faster one. And they're like, hey, 398 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: good job, Joey. You know fourteen years, bro, you just 399 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: run with this. Let those ponies run. And then the 400 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: first American copyright goes to a Massachusetts printer named John 401 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: Usher just a few decades later, sixteen seventy two. Interesting 402 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: from Massachusetts. 403 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 2: I spent a little bit of time over the weekend 404 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: watching a Criterion Channel collection of Roger Corman films adaptations 405 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: of Edgar Allen post stories, which is also interesting in 406 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: terms of intellectual property because those stories, you know, by 407 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties, I believe, were in the public domain, 408 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: so I don't think you had to pay any licensing 409 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: fees to do adaptations of them. And Roger Corman was, 410 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: I mean, not notorious is the wrong word, but just 411 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 2: was very much known for being a very frugal filmmaker. 412 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: And if you watch some of these, I think they're fabulous. 413 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: They all star Vincent Price, some of them reuse shots 414 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 2: from previous ones and The first two are The Fall 415 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: of the House of Usher, which is with this guy's name, 416 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: John Usher, the printer that you're talking about. 417 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: A lot of these stories are based in. 418 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 2: And around the Boston area in Massachusetts, so Usher is 419 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: this family that's supposedly cursed, you know. But my point 420 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: is the first two movies, The Pit and the Pendulum 421 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: and The House Fall of the House of Usher, are 422 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 2: both set in like the same kind of decrepit mansion 423 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: with the same kind of misty exterior shots that are 424 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: clearly like matte paintings and stuff, and both of them 425 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: sort of borrow shots for one another. But I actually 426 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: found them completely delightful. Little sidebar, but I just I couldn't. 427 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: I couldn't pass up a chance to talk about the 428 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: name Usher and the fact that there's this whole old 429 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 2: English kind of lineage there in Massachusetts around this time. 430 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: Sense that Massachusetts would be sort of the origin point 431 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: for a lot of this legal thought because it's an 432 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: early colony, because there was so much money and so 433 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: much innovation in the area at the time, and they 434 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: weren't alone in this race. They weren't the only people 435 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: who were trying to figure out how to get their 436 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: heads around protecting ideas. A lot of colonial governments gave 437 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: patents and copyrights throughout the seventeen hundreds. Typically, though, these 438 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: were made as special one off acts of legislation and 439 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: they got passed on request, kind of like you get 440 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: guacamole on request. I call it the guacamole rule. So 441 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: if you invented something, you would have to go to 442 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: your local government and say, hey, lock this down, make 443 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: this exclusive Rhode Island. What are we anyway? These grants 444 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: typically all had the same strong commonalities. You can see 445 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: all you can see all sorts of early examples of this, 446 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: like Peter Rard in South Carolina sixteen ninety one gets 447 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: a two year patent for a rice husking machine he invents. 448 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: Rhode Island gives somebody a ten year patent for the 449 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: manufacturer of soap, and this continues through all kinds of stuff. 450 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: The Revolutionary War happens, fast forward, fast forward, and people 451 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: still want to protect ideas. Massachusetts is one of the 452 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: first to do this. When the US is newly formed, 453 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: they make their state constitution, and Massachusetts puts protection of 454 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: ideas in their constitution, which is pretty cool. Other states 455 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: didn't do that. 456 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense because, like you said, a lot 457 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: of these early cases were centered right there, and that 458 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 2: really was kind of the seat of innovation in the 459 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: country at the time, so it makes sense they would 460 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: have kind of led the charge. And Massachusetts and the 461 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: Boston area obviously still continues to be a very important 462 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: side of academia, you know, for medical innovation. 463 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, absolutely so, even though it was ad hoc 464 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: in a lot of other states outside of Massachusetts, they 465 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: still have the same commonality. You get exclusivity, but you 466 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: don't get it forever. And then as people in the 467 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: newly formed American States started traveling more and more states, 468 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: as it became more of an actual country, the need 469 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: to make the uniform IP legislation became mission critical. So 470 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people, including authors like Noah Webster, started 471 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: lobbying the federal and state governments to say, hey, copyright legislation, 472 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: you guys, if something is if I wrote a book 473 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: in Georgia, then I should still be the guy who 474 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: wrote the book in New York. 475 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: Of course, because I mean, obviously we're well past the 476 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: innovation of widespread you know, typeset printing and all you know, 477 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: so I mean, things are distributed far and wide, and 478 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: sometimes you know, thing these these sometimes they're smaller printing 479 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 2: operations like so like what we might think of today 480 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: as you know, more bespoke kind of presses or let's 481 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: say certain maybe record kind of companies that are smaller 482 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: that maybe make like high quality bootlegs or something like that. 483 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: You know, you certainly would have seen that. And if 484 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: there's no protection, then easily someone could just reprint your 485 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: work and sell it and make make money from it, 486 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, and if there's no protection, then you would 487 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: have no recourse as the creator. 488 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's dangerous because you know, this is 489 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 1: a full time job for these people, so if they 490 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: can't make a living off of it, then they can't 491 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: do it. That's one of the that's one of the 492 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: things that I think spurs the conversation along here. You 493 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: want to have a society where people can create culture. 494 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: And if you don't have that, if it's not possible 495 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: for them to do that, then eventually a society that 496 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: can create culture is going to is going to infiltrate 497 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: and kind of subsume what you think makes your society 498 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: its own thing. 499 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: That's right, And I mean, you know, we're so easy 500 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: to romanticize the advent of the United States and all 501 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: of that and the Constitution. 502 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:23,479 Speaker 1: What it stood for. 503 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: But I mean, there were a lot of things that 504 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: were very unique to it that it did stand for. 505 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: And these types of protections that you know, sort of 506 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: created the concept of the American Dream were kind of 507 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: you know, I guess, built into the language of the Constitution, 508 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: which is what made the United States sort of an interesting, 509 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: kind of like land of opportunity, right yeah, even if 510 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: it didn't always prove out to be that way in practice. 511 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: Pursuit of happiness, correct, right, Yeah, I'm referring to that 512 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: beautiful line in the Constitution which basically says, you know, 513 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: go for it, do your best. Yeah it just just 514 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: give it the old college try so. In seventeen eighty three, 515 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Congress passes a pretty important resolution about this that codifies 516 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: the idea of copyright statutes protecting an author's work for 517 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: not less than fourteen years. Within two years of this, 518 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: by seventeen eighty five, twelve of the thirteen states to 519 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: pass similar legislation. South Carolina is a little bit of 520 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: an outlier because they equated copyright and patent protections. They said, 521 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: it's an idea. It's kind of the same thing anyway. 522 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: You can just just to back. 523 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't exactly, you know, it's not like 524 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: one of the part of the Bill of Rights exactly, 525 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: but it was, you know, the language in the Constitution 526 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 2: was suggesting of this sort of protection. Left it up 527 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: to the states, but it seemed like it was already 528 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: at this point pretty important to most of them. 529 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. And here's the problem with this stuff, folks. 530 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: This is where things often get ridiculous. As anyone can 531 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: assure you. You can write all sorts of laws, you 532 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: put whatever you want on paper, that is not the 533 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: same thing as those laws being followed. And putting something 534 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: on paper doesn't make it automatically true. American intellectual property 535 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: protection was still a really tall milkshake, a crazy bag 536 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: of badgers for many years after state laws made it 537 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: really expensive and tough for people to make use of 538 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: these of these protections. Right, you would already have to 539 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of be in the system. You'd have to be 540 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: kind of well to do. What I'm saying is, if 541 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: you were a sharecropper and you wrote an amazing book 542 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: of poems or meditations on agriculture, then you would have 543 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: a really tough time getting the protection that you were 544 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: guaranteed on paper. And the Constitutional Convention, to your point, 545 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: didn't talk about IP stuff until August other things to do, 546 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: and as soon as it came through, everyone agreed. They 547 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: were like, yeah, let's do. Yeah, that's fine, that's totally fine. 548 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: You know. Over there were fifty five people at the 549 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: Constitutional Convention. Over half had legal training of some sort. 550 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: Most of them were super deep involved, super deeply involved 551 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: in their state government. So they all had or at 552 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: least over half of them had some kind of rough 553 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: understanding IP law. So this wasn't a hot button issue 554 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: for them. It was something they could all agree on, 555 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: which is relatively unusual at any point in American governance. 556 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: That's right, and it's it's it is a little confusing, 557 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: and I think that's evidence by my waffling on this. 558 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: I mean, there was a clause, an IP clause in 559 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: the Constitution that was written then after a lot of 560 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: this kind of state by state embracing of IP law. 561 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: But even though that that it was written into the Constitution, 562 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: it's still it was it was sort of imperfectly written, 563 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: I guess, so this whole state based system of intellectual 564 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: property protection kind of was a little bit you know 565 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: rough right. 566 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, okay, I say this with great affection 567 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: for the Constitution. It was a difficult documents, right, they 568 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: knew it was not going to be perfect. And a 569 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: lot of times if you read it, there's this vibe 570 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: of you know, make this happen somehow, so do your best. Yeah, 571 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: trust sure, product to that happiness, bro. So, like, the 572 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: US Constitution does have that IP stuff in there. It's 573 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: Article one, Section eight, clause eight. And all they say 574 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: is the gist of it is quote to promote the 575 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: progressive science and useful arts by securing, for limited times 576 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective 577 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: writings and discoveries. So just somehow make that happen. That's 578 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: all the cost. It doesn't say how to do that. 579 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: It's just like all right also that and you know, 580 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: these guys already had a long day at the convention. 581 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: They've probably been arguing back and forth. Someone says, all right, 582 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: what about this part. We all know this one, and 583 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: everybody goes, uh, yeah, when's lunch, you know what I mean, 584 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: Just yeah, just knock it out. 585 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: So once again hopping across the pond back to Europe. 586 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: We had countries such as Holland and Switzerland and Belgium 587 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 2: and Italy. 588 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: That were modeling their. 589 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: IP laws around what England had accomplished. It's interesting considering 590 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 2: that I believe England initially modeled their intellectual property laws 591 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: off of what was that, Ben, We talked about that 592 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: at the very beginning. Was it about like Florence off 593 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: of Florence, off of Italy exactly? So it's the circle 594 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: of life there once again. So you're starting to see, 595 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: you know, we have weirdly also seen Ben, if I'm 596 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 2: not mistaken, it's sort of areas, you know, country by country. 597 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 2: But in Europe there are some laws that are more 598 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: protective of intellectual property for creatives and for you know, 599 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: rights holders than we have here in the United States. 600 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: Right sure. And then there are other countries where that 601 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: that dog doesn't hunt as they say, you know that 602 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: that leads to some very interesting situations in the In 603 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: mainland China, for instance, there are tons of Harry Potter 604 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: books that JK. Rowling didn't write. There are thousands upon 605 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: thousands of unofficial sequels because it's very much a reading 606 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: country to all of your favorite books in the West. 607 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: It's it's still doesn't there's non IP law that is 608 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: enforced uniformly across the globe, and is that a problem? 609 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,479 Speaker 1: Is that something that does need to be fixed? What 610 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: does the future bring? 611 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: Well, we did start to see, you know, some kind 612 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: of intellectual property agreements that were more globally sort of focused, 613 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: like the Burn Convention treaty, and also something called the 614 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Agreement or TRIPS, which 615 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: was nineteen which took place in as recently as nineteen 616 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 2: ninety four. So there is sort of an eye towards 617 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 2: you know, global enforcement of intellectual property taking place. But 618 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 2: that all just depends. It's sort of like it's toothless. 619 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: It's sort of like a lot of UN resolutions, like 620 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 2: you're not going to go to war over it. It's 621 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 2: sort of more like a play nice. Here's what we've 622 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 2: sort of agreed are the rules. But if you're not 623 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: participating country then, like you said with China or whatever, 624 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: then it's not really you know, relevant. 625 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it is sort of Western or 626 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: European rules, and it's kind of it's weirdly similar to 627 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: the climate change debate. You know a lot of developing 628 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: nations say, well, you wrecked the planet. Why do why 629 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: are you pulling the ladder up after you and telling 630 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: us that we can't do the same thing to succeed? 631 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: And so like you polluted more, so shouldn't you have 632 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: to you know, do more in terms of like carbon 633 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 2: credits and rings like that. 634 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and you know, folks are gonna have to 635 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: personally agree with that perspective, but we do need to 636 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: acknowledge it exists. And with that we are calling it 637 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: a day. This is the end of part one of 638 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: our History of Intellectual Property episode. Now, we gave you 639 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot of background, we gave you a lot of context. 640 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: Tune in for part two because this is when we 641 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: get to some even more ridiculous stuff, including some examples 642 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: of what happens when IP beefs get cartoonish. So thanks 643 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: as always to our pal, our super producer, mister Backs Williams, 644 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: Thanks to our research associate, doctor Z. 645 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: Indeed, huge thanks to Christopher hasiotis here in spirit, Alex 646 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: Williams who composed of our theme, Jonathan Strickland, our very 647 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: own personal patent trol or just you know a troll. 648 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: He's sort of more of a bridge troll type figure than. 649 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: A patent one, which we should talk about the concept 650 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: of patent trolls a little bit. 651 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: We certainly mentioned in the. 652 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 2: Past, but look for a little bit more of that 653 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 2: kind of talk in episode too. 654 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: I'm taking out a patent on the letter E. We'll 655 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: see you next type folks. 656 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 657 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.