1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. All of us here at 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Crime Stories are working every day to stay in touch 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: with you and bring you the very latest in crime 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: and justice news all around our country. And now our 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: friends at Serious XM are making it even easier for 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: you to get crime stories while so many of us 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: are doing our part staying home and staying safe. This 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: is what they're doing. If you don't already have a 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: subscription at Serious XM, here's a chance to listen for free. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: Listen for free. 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Done cold killers, many of them serial killers, 20 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: Lee Boyd, Malvo, Ted Bundy, Yourned Vander Salute, the Evil 21 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Menendez Brothers, Richard Ramrez remember the night Stalker. They're all married, 22 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: they got married. Behind bars Crime Stories with Nancy Greece 23 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: ten dead bodies that we know of. I remember being 24 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: in DC at the time of the DCS sniper scare, 25 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: the whole metro area living in fear. Who would be 26 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: gunned down next? At the airport, going to home depot, 27 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the grocery store, on the street, 28 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: in your yard, Who would be next? The sniping murders 29 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: were calculated but seemingly random. No one knew who would 30 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: be shot down dead next, mothers, brothers, fathers, sons, daughters 31 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: dead but at the hands of film. Well, now we know, 32 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: and the very latest, the d C sniper is enjoying 33 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: wedded bliss behind bars. I mean, is he grace? This 34 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here 35 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and series six seven one eleven. Let's 36 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: go straight out to ABC News correspondent Barry Seraphin. Shooting 37 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: started yesterday at five twenty pm, a bullet went through 38 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: a window of this store, narrowly missing a clerk inside. 39 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: It was the only miss. At six h four pm, 40 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: a middle aged white man was killed outside of the 41 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: supermarket this morning. The murders resumed at seven forty one am, 42 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: another white man mowing his lawn at eight twelve am, 43 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: an Indian man gassing up his cab. Minutes later at 44 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: eight thirty seven, and Hispanic woman sitting reading a book 45 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: on a bench outside of a restaurant. The young lady 46 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 1: that just saying about five minutes or ten minutes ago 47 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: off the bus was laying right then. It was just terrible. 48 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Just over an hour later, at nine fifty eight am, 49 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: another single bullet, another victim, a woman cleaning her car 50 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: at a gas station. Altogether six shots, five apparently random victims, 51 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: within sixteen hours. Police are stopped. Nothing like this has 52 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: ever happened in Montgomery County. This is a very safe community. 53 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: Al homicide rate just increased by one day. A DC 54 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: sniper married behind bars. What's next? A family a ranch? 55 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: I don't get it. I can just see a ranch 56 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: style home in the DC suburbs. How is this happening? 57 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: You may wonder why did Barry seraph and keep pointing 58 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: out the race and the sex of the victims. I'll 59 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: tell you why, because typically a serial killer kills within 60 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: their own race. With me an all star panel to 61 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: break it down and put it back together again. First 62 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: of all, renowned defense attorney, former prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, 63 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: but all across the country. Daryl Cohen, Bruce Johnson, owner 64 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: ESP Investigations, former sergeant Chicago Metro. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 65 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 66 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: Psychoanalyst to the stars, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from 67 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall 68 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: dot com and Leavipage Crime online dot com. Investigative reporter. 69 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear all the wedding details from 70 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: DC Sniper to Ted Bundy to the Menendez brothers. They're 71 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: getting married and even having children from behind bars. But 72 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: back to the crime. Why is it to doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, 73 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: joining me out of Beverly Hills. Why is it that 74 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: serial killers, particularly and very often killers, murder within their 75 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: own race. Why is that? I think because they statishize 76 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: the victims from very early in life, meaning that the 77 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: preoccupation to kill begins to be fixated on a certain 78 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: some type. Well, that starts so early in life. That's 79 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: going to start within their own socioeconomic, ethnic, racial group. 80 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: It doesn't change over time. And that's why the DC 81 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: snipers were so unusual because they went outside that small 82 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: group in which they were raised. But remember they also 83 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: were from another country, right, so they came here from 84 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: another country and they couldn't stick within that specific group 85 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: because they were immigrants and they were sort of like 86 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: they were more like a thrill kill three killers, so 87 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: they just aimed and shot at everyone. You know, that's 88 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: a really good point that they had immigrated sometime back, 89 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: and had they had immigrated and then integrated within their community. 90 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: And you heard them say, this white male was cutting 91 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: his grass, this Hispanic lady was just sitting there reading 92 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: a book outdoors. It went on and on and on, 93 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: and that's typically is it not, dude just just got 94 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: more Again. One of the ways that criminologist and prosecutors 95 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: like myself and others profile the killer, and that's a 96 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: very important Like, for instance, in this case, I can 97 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: tell you day one it was a man, but because 98 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: of the mixture of gender and races, it was very 99 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: hard to pinpoint the profile of a suspect. Joe Scott. Yeah, 100 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: it is very difficult. And I even remember back in 101 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: tom when Chief Moose if you remember that name. Yeah, 102 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: he held a press conference at one point in time 103 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: and said that they were specifically looking for a white 104 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: male driving a white panel then, and he made some 105 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: very tad about any number of crimes though, right, Joe Scott, 106 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: it's always a freaky white male and a white van. Yeah. 107 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: And do you realize and I know that you do. 108 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: The times I've been to DC, I think about that, 109 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: and I think about all the white panel vans that 110 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: are everywhere. It created an absolute nightmare for our friends 111 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: in Virginia, Maryland and the DC area because they were 112 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: going around stopping these vans, trying to determine who on them, 113 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: what their purpose was out there. People were in utter terror. 114 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: I remember, and Daryl Cohen, living in New York, I 115 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: would travel to DC, believe it or not, almost every 116 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: weekday as soon as I got off Court TV. Because 117 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: little known fact, most of Larry King's sarry was typically 118 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: in California. He had a skeleton crew in New York, 119 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: but the bulk of his staff was in DC. So 120 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: when I would guest host for Larry. I would fly 121 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: every day. I remember trying to get to the airport 122 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: after I got off Court TV, get to LaGuardia and 123 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: get to DC and I would step out of that 124 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: airport and look around and think, Oh, dear Lord in heaven. 125 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: During the sniper crisis, here's my question to you, Daryl 126 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: Coe and former prosecutor now defense attorney. Have you ever 127 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: had a serial killer that you prosecuted or defended that 128 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: killed outside their race. I don't mean a one off, 129 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: one murder. I mean somebody. Yes. I don't need a shrink, sorry, 130 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany or let me say, a profiler to tell 131 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: me that, because I just know it because of all 132 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: the cases we've handled. No, Nancy, I haven't. And let 133 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: me say this. I think profilers are wonderful, and you 134 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: guys do a great yar but you need eyewitnesses, you 135 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: need snitches, you need all sorts of people to help 136 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: you locate and arrest the killer. And that's really primary, 137 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: regardless of anything else, because as long as he is 138 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: out there and shooting randomly, and at the time everyone 139 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,599 Speaker 1: thought it was random. Had a friend that worked for 140 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: TV station. She was petrified, petrified, and so no I've 141 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: never seen other than him someone what appeared to be 142 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: random because they all use their own race because they 143 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. I don't know why. I just know 144 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: that it's true. I don't really understand exactly how the 145 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: phone or the TV or the wireless works, but I 146 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: know that it works. Just like I know serial killers 147 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: and very often serial rapists. But typically serial killers kill 148 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: within their owner. That's not even the bottleshell. The bottleshell 149 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: is this guy is now married, what are they planning 150 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: a family? But more insight into who the DC sniper 151 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: is take a listen again to ABC's Barry Seraphin. Law 152 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: enforcement sources say the weapon was a high power rifle 153 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: fired in some cases at least from a distance. We 154 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: feel like we probably have a skill shooter, and that 155 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: does heighten our concern. Police have had little to go on, 156 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: only one witness's description of two people in a white 157 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: truck speeding away from one murder scene. Police are stopping 158 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: white trucks and vans but have not found any suspects. 159 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: That has made the community nervous. One hundred forty thousand 160 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: school children in Montgomery County were kept indoors through the 161 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: day and police were on hand when schools let out. 162 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: The massive man hunt continues, but Peter police admit they 163 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: don't know who are, what they're dealing with, or what 164 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: they're motive might be. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Take 165 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Tim Williams at thirteen w 166 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: j Z, the man serving a life sentence in prison 167 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: for his role in the two thousand who Snipers Free 168 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: that terrorized Washington, DC, is now a married man. Officials 169 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: confirmed Lee Boyd Malvo married a woman earlier this month 170 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: at red Onion State Prison in Virginia. The bride has 171 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: not been identified. Rules in Virginia regulate inmate weddings. Witnesses 172 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: and guests are restricted to a maximum of six and 173 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: refreshments must be from the prison vending machines. Boo, who 174 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: why they have to get their refreshments from the vending machine? 175 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: Why are they allowed to get married? Levi page Climb 176 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: Online investigative reporter Levi how many people did the DC 177 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: sniper's kill but Nancy? He killed ten people. There were 178 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: two of them, and they injured three people and Nancy 179 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: even an FBI agent was killed. An FBI agent was 180 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: killed near their home in Falls Church Virginia. So there 181 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: were all sorts of people killed. One woman was killed 182 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: loading groceries into her van, another one was killed walking 183 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: across a parking lot. A man was killed outside of 184 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: a steakhouse. And this went on for about a month 185 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: from October second until October twenty fourth. In twenty two 186 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: thousand and two, when Mohammed and Malvo were arrested. You 187 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: just start to memory with me. I'm a lot of 188 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: you remember my dad Mac, and he worked for the railroad, 189 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: and he would do all tricks and so what he 190 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: called him. Sometimes he'd be on the night shift. Sometimes 191 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: he'd be early morning shift. But one night, two nights 192 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: a week, he would be gone till seven or eight 193 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, and my mother and my sister 194 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: Jennie and I Big Deal would go to ponder rosa steakhouse. 195 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: Do you remember those, Jackie, And you could get okay, 196 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: just go with me a bilet, a salad and baked 197 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: tato for I think it was five ninety nine. Woo okay. 198 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: So we would do that when my dad was gone, 199 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: and it was a steakhouse, and the three of us 200 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: would just walk out to our car, thinking nothing of it, 201 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: and go back home. I'm just thinking about this guy 202 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: walking out of a steakhouse and the one woman sitting 203 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: outside reading a book just gunned down for no with 204 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: no rhyme or reason. And now this guy is married 205 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: behind bars and to our leavi page climb online dot 206 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, the woman the DC sniper marries is 207 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: a wealthy quote trust fund baby, an activist who has 208 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: to Bernie Sanders. Now what I don't care about Bernie 209 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: Sanders or Biden or a Trump. To me, they're all lying. 210 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: I hate to tell you that it's true. They're all lying. 211 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: You're just gonna have to hold your nerves and get 212 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: in the voting booth and pick somebody who is the 213 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: least disturbing. So it's not about Sanders, It's not about politics. 214 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: What I'm saying is, this is a woman who married 215 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: Lee Boyd Malvo, the DC Sniper, and she's clearly had 216 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: every advantage money, well education could buy her. What is 217 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: wrong with her? Dodger Bethany Marshall. You know, Nancy, I'm 218 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: going to quote my favorite researcher, Read Malloy once again, 219 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: because he has a whole chapter in his book Violent 220 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: Attachments that addresses this issue of women who fall in 221 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: love with men behind you say read Malloy R E D. 222 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: Malloy m E l O y he I'll send you 223 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: his book as violent Attachments. It's four different violent attachment 224 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: styles between women and the perpetrators, and one is women 225 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: who fall in love with men behind bars and his theory. 226 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: He has a couple. One is their refusal to put 227 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: their thoughts together about the nature of the crimes of 228 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: the man we saw this was Richard Richard Ramirez and 229 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: n I Stalker's wife said that he did not commit 230 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: the crimes. The second is that they some of them 231 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: grew up in violent households where violence and love were 232 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: fused and they were seen as one and the same. 233 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: But this woman defies both of those theories. She seems 234 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: like she grew up in an affluent family. She has resources, 235 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: she has her mental health such to the extent that 236 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: she can try to contribute to society. So I would 237 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: say she's one of those outliers who just wants somebody 238 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: who's behind bars because she can track him and know 239 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: where he is at all times. You know, some people 240 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: are profoundly insecure, and the idea of marrying somebody or 241 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: connecting with somebody, free to roam the world and have 242 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: friends and be their own person. It's just that they can't. 243 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: Can I just say, I wait a minute, Daryl, I 244 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: was about to give love advice. Okay, he just put 245 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: a pin in at one moment, because doctor Bethany, you're 246 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: the shrink. I'm just a jd. Okay. But if you 247 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: have to worry about where your husband or boyfriend is, 248 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: then that's the wrong guy for you, and you're not wrong. 249 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: He or she has probably given you a reason to think, Wow, 250 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: are they really at work? Are they somewhere else? Are 251 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: they shacked up at a hotel? Or they at somebody's apartment. 252 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: If you think that you have the wrong guy, I'm 253 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: just telling you, and it's not necessarily your fault. You're 254 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: not being suspicious and crazy. Something has made you think that. 255 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: So if you have to have a guy bucked up 256 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: in jail to feel good about it, crazy talk. Okay, Daryl, 257 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: you're quite the Lefario in your earlier days before. You're 258 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: very happy marriage. Right now. I think that we're looking 259 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: at cultult cult and charisma, and there are people who want, 260 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they want to be part of this cult, 261 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: whether it was Manson, whether it was Bundy, and they 262 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: acquire that is, the people incarcerated for murder of acquired 263 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: the charisma after the cult. And I think that these 264 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: women part of their psychic and I wish I was 265 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: smart enough and educated enough on the psychological side, But 266 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: I think from the logical side, from what we can see, 267 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: they are looking for their place in history. Well, they 268 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: certainly had to disagree with you from a from a 269 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: logical perspective, you're probably a thousand percent right from the 270 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: other side. But you just had to just throw that in, 271 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: just like I had to throw this worry about the steakhouse. Okay, 272 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: it happens, and isn't it true? Bruce Johnson, owner ESP Investigations, 273 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: former Master Sergeant Chicago Metro Area Police. When you're sitting 274 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: around the table or in the break room, I don't 275 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: remember us having a break room, but I do remember 276 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: sitting around the research table upon the what was at 277 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: ninth floor, Daryl where appeals was a talking about cafeteria. Yes, 278 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: that that would be our table, and talking This is 279 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: exactly what it's like when you dissect the case. You 280 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: end up talking about trust fund babies and steakhouses used 281 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: to go to twenty years ago. Bruce Johnson. At the 282 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: end of all the talking and theorizing, you end up 283 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: with a theory on the case. But I still don't 284 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: understand this woman rich, educated, the works marrying a guy 285 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: in ps Bruce Johnson, I hope you're sitting down. He's 286 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: eligible for parole in less than two years, twenty twenty 287 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: ten dead people. He's up for parole twenty twenty. What 288 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: about Abrie Shaws. Well, again, it's socializing. They want to 289 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: they want that popularity, they want to be linked to 290 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: a celebrity. You know, in in Illinois, we had the 291 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: same thing with Drew Peterson. He had I want to say, 292 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: three or four girlfriends and he got married in jail 293 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: that he couldn't get the women to not come to 294 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: the cell. So for whatever reason that it is, it's 295 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: that social stagmatism that they want that celebrity status. They 296 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: want to be linked to that person for whatever, and 297 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: they don't really care about the crime. But as far 298 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: as the other stuff with the incarceration, you know, we've 299 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: been talking about this. You had a couple of series 300 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: on it with the no Cash fail and that's where 301 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: this is going. All this stuff is inside system and 302 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: socializing the justice system. That's where it's going. Crime stories 303 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, how do serial killers end up 304 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: getting married and planning families from behind bars? I don't 305 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: get it. But it's not just the DC sniper uh Malvo, 306 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: who is set to be released in twenty twenty and 307 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: less than two years. Take a listen to this nine 308 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: one one call, what's the problem? Twelve shots in the 309 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: middle of Beverly Hills on a Sunday night, and no 310 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: one calls. The police were waiting at the house, no 311 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: one chose him, and I still can't believe it. I'm 312 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: sitting on the stairs afterwards, thinking the police are going 313 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: to be there in seconds. I think a roving patrol 314 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: and people, many, many people didn't hear the shots. Many 315 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: neighbors came in and said they heard all these shots, 316 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: but nobody called. Because I just figured this is Beverly Hills. 317 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: This doesn't happen in Hills. You were hearing a snippet 318 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: of the nine one one call the Knight of Menendez 319 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: and let me know who that was speaking, Jackie, because 320 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: they really hit the nail on the head. LEVI page now, 321 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers also married behind bars, but just refresh 322 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: my recollection on the Menandez brothers crimes. Murdered their dad 323 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: and their mom, Kitty. Yeah, so the Memendez brothers were 324 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: very wealthy and they barged into their parents Beverly Hills 325 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: men WHOA wait a minute, they weren't wealthy. Their parents 326 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: were wealthy. And you know why their parents were wealthy 327 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: because they worked like dogs to amass money for the 328 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: Menendez brothers to run through as soon as they murdered 329 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: their parents, you're correct, And they busted into the mansion 330 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: with the twelve gage shotgun and killed Jose and Kitty 331 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: Memendez and then went on a spending spree with their 332 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: money after the murder. And lyle and As he's been 333 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: behind bars for thirty one years, and he is on 334 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: wife number two. He was married for sixteen years, and 335 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: I had a woman that visited him every weekend in prison. 336 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: Her name was Rebecca. And he told People magazine in 337 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen that he and his wife probably have better 338 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: conversations than most married couples do because it's just the 339 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: two of them and there's no distractions when they get 340 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: to visit each other and he's on wife number two 341 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: in Oh, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Bethany, Bethany Marshall, 342 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, did you hear that these guys gunned 343 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: down their mom and dad as they're sitting there watching TV, 344 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: eating ice cream? Carry on, cry to the police. Then 345 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: they run out by sports cars, get a private tennis coach, 346 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: by expensive watches, jewelry clothes. Immediately after their parents are 347 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: gunned down, dad they claimed their dad molested them. That 348 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: still doesn't explain even if it were true, doesn't explain 349 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: murdering your mother in cold blood. And by the way, Bethany, 350 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: she was crawling up the hallway trying to get away 351 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: from her sons, and they followed her and gunned her 352 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: down as she tried to crawl away. It's my understanding 353 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: based on the forensics. To Joe Scott Morgan, how the 354 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: heck could they tell that based on the forensics at 355 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: the home? Well, obviously, if she was in fact crawling away, 356 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: then she would leave traces of herself behind, whatever that 357 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: might comprise of, say, for instance, like blood, there would 358 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: be a blood trail that would be leading to the 359 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: body as she is attempting to get away from where 360 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: the event actually occurred. Let's keep in mind the husband, 361 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: Jose was literally gunned down on his sofa with a 362 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: shotgun blast to the head. That's what makes this so gruesome, 363 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: the fact that they could actually do this to their parents, 364 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: and that tells you a lot about the individual that 365 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: might want to engage with these individuals at a personal level. So, Joe, 366 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: are you read titling your book to Blood Beneath my knees? Well, 367 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: I mean, based on where her body was found and 368 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: bloodshow and forensics ricocheting bullets, they could tell what happened. 369 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: I'll take a listen to our friends at NBC Dateline 370 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: interviewing Tammy Menendez. I didn't set out to have a 371 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: relationship with Eric, but it's something that happened. And you know, 372 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: I wrote one letter to him and he wrote back, 373 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: and I went to visit him in prison, and our 374 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: relationship developed. And in fact, in one of his letters 375 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: he had written and said that he had a girlfriend 376 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: for a couple of years, and I kind of said, 377 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: it's so sad that he thinks he has a girlfriend. 378 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: So I understand where the public's view is coming from, 379 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: but I do get emotional support from Eric. He's my 380 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: best friend. You'd be surprised how well you can get 381 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: to know somebody through letters. He became a really good 382 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: friend of mine. And then after I met him, things, 383 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, got more and more intense. And you know what, Jackie. 384 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: Let's hear again from Timmy Menendez speaking to ABC's Barbara Walters. 385 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm not a killer. I never was. It's not who 386 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: I am. But you killed your parents, That's that's true. 387 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: But I'm not a murderer. It troubles me. But I 388 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: do know the person that Eric is I and I 389 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: know his heart, I know his soul, and I do 390 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: know what happened that night, and I do understand. I 391 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: believe that within everybody, it put in certain circumstances, you will, 392 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, be able to kill somebody. I mean, I 393 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: do believe that Eric is a very good person. Okay, 394 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: earlier you were hearing our friends at date Line who 395 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 1: we played the nine one one call doctor Bethany, do 396 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: you believe that that everyone will kill in the right circumstances, 397 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: because I don't. No, I don't believe that at all. 398 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: And just to add something about the crime scene, those 399 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: boys went back and shot their parents in the kneecaps 400 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: just to make it look like it was a break in. 401 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: So that is how cold blooded they were. And they 402 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: went on a spending spree that lasted for months before 403 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: suspicion turned on them. Now, in terms of Eric Menendez, 404 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing is that he has this so well 405 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: rationalized that he's not a killer. This just happened. His 406 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: dad and blested him. And as she said, it doesn't 407 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: matter if his dad and blested him. They're all kinds 408 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse victims in this world, and they do 409 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: not become homicidal. I think he has rationalized the crime. 410 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: He has, in fact, brainwashed a willing participant who does 411 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: not want to believe that he committed this crime. She 412 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: says she had no intent of developing a relationship with him. 413 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: I do not believe at all she wrote the first letter. Okay, 414 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: she went and visited him. She sought this relationship out. 415 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: And this reminds me of an interview I did once 416 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: with a group of women who I told you this story. Once. 417 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: They did something where they would wait outside the prisons 418 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: for when men were released, and they would help them 419 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: with something that they called touching down touching down was 420 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: the first time the guy would have sex once he 421 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: was released from prison. These women believed that because the 422 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: men were behind bars, they had no sexual life, and 423 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: so they were saving it all up for them that 424 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: once the guys were released from their incarceration, they had 425 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: all this sexual energy built up. And the woman whoever, 426 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: the one woman I interviewed, her name was Misty. Misty 427 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: believed that she would be the first sex partner in years, 428 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: like having sex, was a virgin. So the fantasy of 429 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: what went on behind bars, if these guys were leading 430 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: these virginal lives and just only thinking about them and 431 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: only available for them, really played on these women's pathology, 432 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, that they needed, like 433 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: I said earlier, to have somebody behind bars waiting for 434 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: them all the time. Have you heard the anachronism TMI? 435 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: Because that was a little more than I had bargained for, 436 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: and now it's stuck up here and I'm never going 437 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: to get that out of my head. Thanks doctor Bethany 438 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: so much for the Touching Down explanation. Crime stories with Nancy, Grace, 439 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: Bundy and Boone even had a daughter the result of 440 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: a moment of cloak and dagger intimacy. In prison, Carol 441 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: told me that there were two ways to have sex. 442 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: One was to sneak into the bathroom and the other 443 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: one was behind the water cooler. A recent Netflix documentary 444 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: featured audio of her speaking about how the baby was conceived. 445 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone believed Bundy's claims of innocence for many years. Guys, 446 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: you are hearing our friend, my friend Jim Murray speaking 447 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy and his wife Carol Anne Boone. Take 448 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. Why would 449 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: anyone marry America's most notorious serial killer. That's the intriguing 450 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: question being raised by the new movie, in which Zac 451 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: Efron plays the monster Ted Bundy. The movie features scenes 452 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: involving Bundy's wife, Carol Anne Boone. Media is committed had 453 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: his dame cry. The real life Bundy and Boone first 454 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: became friends when they worked together in Washington State in 455 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. Bundy actually proposed to Carol Anne while 456 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: she was testifying on his behalf at the penalty phase 457 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: of his murder trial in Florida. Will You married? That 458 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: was all that was required for them to be officially married. 459 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: In the state of Florida. Author Stephen Mishow visited Bundy 460 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: numerous times on death row. He says he helped arrange 461 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: the surprising courtroom proposal, even procuring rings from Tiffany and 462 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: a wedding outfit for Bundy. I went to the men's 463 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: store and bought Ted a pair of khakis and a 464 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: bow tie and some argyle socks so he could look 465 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: spiffy for the for the occasion. You are hearing the 466 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: voice of the guy who arranged Ted Bundy's wedding surreptitiously. 467 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: That was Stephen Mishow speaking to Inside Edition straight out 468 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: to Levipage Crime online dot com investigative reporter. How did 469 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,479 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy end up getting married behind bars? So, Nancy 470 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy met Carol Boone when they worked together in Washington, 471 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: Washington State Emergency Services. And that is what is so bizarre. 472 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: They actually met searching for women that had gone missing 473 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: in the state, women that Ted Bundy actually murdered. And 474 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: he was later arrested and was going on trial for 475 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: murder in Florida, and the trial was in Orlando, and 476 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: he was accused of murdering Kimberlee Leech. He was convicted 477 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: of that. She was twelve years old and Carol could 478 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: not find a minister to marry them, but she found 479 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: a loophole in the law. If there's a public declaration 480 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: of marriage that's made in a courtroom in front of 481 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: officers of the court, then the marriage is considered legal. 482 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: So Ted Bundee actually represented himself and he called her 483 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: to the stand, asked her to marry him, and she 484 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: said yes, and they even had a child. Against prison rules, 485 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: she got pregnant and that daughter is now thirty six 486 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: years old, living her life somewhere. I don't machanics, but 487 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: leavi page. How in the hay did this woman, Carolyn 488 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: Boone get pregnant by Ted Bundy behind bars? Yeah, I 489 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: was against prison rules, but apparently they were able to 490 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: be intimate. And this is not the only rules pape rope. 491 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: It's alleged that she would smuggle drugs to him, and 492 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: that she smuggled drugs to him by hiding them in 493 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: her private parts, not to get too graphic, and she 494 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: is also alleged I've actually given him cash when he 495 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: escaped during that escape, during one of his two escapes. 496 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: Amazing to me. I'll never get past this, Darryl Cohen, 497 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: How somebody like Ted Bundy manages to escape not once, 498 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: but twice once from a law librarian the courthouse. As 499 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: I recall, how did that happen? How do you not 500 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: watch Ted Bundy every minute? How does that happen? Darryl Cohen? 501 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: I think it's reducts of Fulton County, George, Fulton County Courthouse, Atlanta, Georgia. 502 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: I suspect that Ted Bundy, who was very well educated, 503 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: very glib, and didn't look like a killer. He looked 504 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: like a good guy, like a lawyer. Oh my gosh, 505 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: he was a lawyer. So they let their guard down. 506 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: Excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom. I'll 507 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: be right back. Don't worry about it to Ted, who 508 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: then saunors out. Yeah. I think he seemed not to 509 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: be a threat. He didn't look the part. He wasn't 510 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: from Hollywood casting. He was a villain. Heina's killer that 511 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: no one expected, which is also how he lured in 512 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: a lot of his victims. But it's not Jessey jump in, 513 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: go ahead. I would love to make a comment about 514 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone and why she wanted to marry him 515 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: and Let's remember that when she helped him escape, that's 516 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: when he went and killed another person. So she actually 517 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: participated in the crime. And there's so many theories about 518 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: why women marry men behind bars, but one of the 519 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: theories is that the woman takes secret pleasure in the 520 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: man's crimes, that there is something latently homicidal about the woman, 521 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: and that she has hatred towards the victims. And this 522 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: is in the literature, and I've seen this in my 523 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: practice with women who pair up with men who are hateful, domineering, aggressive, 524 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: and so their friendship flourished when they were searching for victims, 525 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: which tells me that she had a lurid fascination with 526 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: his crimes. She helped Springham from jail and he committed 527 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: another crime. Could it be that Carol Anne Boone, although 528 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: she was not technically a serial killer herself, that there 529 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: was some pleasure that other women were getting killed, raped, 530 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: in a sense, like they had it coming to them. 531 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: Her motive would be different from his use, would be 532 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: more sexual sadism, but her might be hatred towards women, 533 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: and they paired up on this mutual sociopathy that they shared. 534 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: You know, Doctor Bethany, you just taught me something new 535 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: that I hadn't thought of regarding these women who marry 536 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: killers behind bars. That was an incredible train of thought. 537 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: Let's see if we can apply it to someone known 538 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: as the night Stalker. Take a listen to our friends 539 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: at k R O N four, Vicky Levicus for many 540 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: who would look at Richard Ramirez in the eye and 541 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: say he is the face of evil, And yet you 542 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: look at him and you see the man of your dreams. Yes, 543 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: who needs glasses here? I can't help the way the 544 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: world looks at him. They don't know him the way 545 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: I do. And the next day, Dorene walked down the aisle, 546 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: albeit a prison aisle, with her groom. Here's the couple 547 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: and her response being the new missus Richard Ramirez. It 548 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: feels wonderful. I'm so happy. I'm I'm so thrilled, very proud, 549 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: and a little belief that the bulk of the day 550 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: is over and just hopefully I can enjoy the rest 551 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: of my day in peace with Richard's family and think 552 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: about the importance of what happened today, the importance of 553 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,959 Speaker 1: what happened. She married the night Stalker. How many dead 554 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: bodies connected to the night stalker Leavi Page. So Nancy. 555 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: This guy in the spring and summer of eighty fins, 556 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: he terrorized residents of southern California in San Francisco, and 557 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: he was responsible for thirteen home invasion murders and eleven 558 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: sexual assaults. And he beat and sexually assaulted women before 559 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: stabbing them to death. Take a listen to our friends 560 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: at ABC GMA. This is our friend Matt Gutman. She 561 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: may look like the girl next door, but this woman 562 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: could be the future Missus Charles Manson. Everybody loves the 563 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: Lame Charles Manson. ABC News has learned the notorious killer 564 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: I'm a convict, I'm an outlaw, I'm a rebel, I'm 565 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: not a sunny school teacher, obtained a marriage license from 566 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: behind bars and could marry twenty six year old Star 567 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 1: Burton as soon as next month. Starr, whose real name 568 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: is Afton Elaine Burton, is fifty four years younger than Manson, 569 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: born long after he was convicted the gruesome murders of 570 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: actress Sharon Tate and six others in nineteen seventy one. 571 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: Still she says she loves him, and in this twenty 572 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: eleven video posted on YouTube says that she wants to 573 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: exonerate him. It's so obvious that Charles Manson was railroaded. 574 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: Burton was raised a Baptist in Missouri, moved out to 575 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: California nine years ago to be closer to Manson's prisoner. 576 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: She even runs this website devoted to clearing Manson's name. 577 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: Charles Manson getting married behind bars and the reality is 578 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: his wife, his bride, his fiancee was born after the 579 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: murders and had no idea what was happening. And you know, 580 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: here's another stunner to Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert. Remember 581 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: how we have analyzed Natalie holloway disappearance and then murder 582 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: of Stephanie Tassiana Flores. Your Vanderslut second murder victim that 583 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,240 Speaker 1: we know of. You do know, yourn Vanderslute is married 584 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: with a child from behind bars, right, Jesscott, Yeah, I do. Actually, 585 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: Nancy Vanderslut has been married. And when you consider how 586 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: devious and just horrible this person is in this world, 587 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 1: it's amazing that he could find anyone that would want to, 588 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: you know, kind of engage with him, particularly at this 589 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: intimate level. It's absolutely just striking the fact that you 590 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: have people that are obsessed with folks like Vanderslot. Vandersloot 591 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: has brought and you know it is about the killing 592 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: of Natalie Holloway, the missing, the circumstances around her missing, 593 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: but the pain and anguish he has drugged this family 594 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: through for all of these years, the mom and dad 595 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: where he would give them little bits of information. This 596 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: guy is a true sadist. Nancy, he maynty. Can I 597 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: make a comment about their own because this one, Charles Manson, Urn, 598 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: Vander Salute, and Richard Ramirez all three, the three women 599 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: who married those men have something in common. And I 600 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: want to refer to a famous study where women were 601 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: interviewed who had married men behind bar. A certain subset 602 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: of women had no idea what the crime was. They 603 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: had deliberately decided not to look at the criminal record. 604 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: They didn't want to know, and they would proudly say 605 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: to the prison guards and to the interviewers, I don't 606 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: know what he did. I don't even care. So there 607 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,760 Speaker 1: was this deliberate denial. I also think that what Daryl 608 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: Cohen said about this cult, like a persona that draws 609 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: the woman in I mean, I think Charles Manson definitely 610 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: fits that subtype that he was talking about. He was 611 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: a cult leader, so what is he going to do 612 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: even from behind bars. He's going to continue to recruit 613 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: like he did when he was roaming free and killing people. 614 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: Dodger Bethany Marshall and in depth analysis of not only 615 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: the sadistic killers behind bars, but the psychopathy behind the 616 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: women that marry them, have sex with them, and bear 617 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: their children from behind bars. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing 618 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: off Goodbye Friend,