WEBVTT - Combating the Loneliness Epidemic: with Julie Schechter 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.119 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.320 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.640 and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:22.600 This is pretty smart. Loneliness is hard to measure. It's subjective, 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.360 but you know it when you feel it, and it's 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.040 something we all feel at some point or another, maybe 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.479 some of us more than others. But the impact that 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:39.880 it's had on public health is quantifiable. In twenty seventeen, 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.760 the former US Surgeon General called loneliness a public health epidemic. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.120 It's been compared to a crisis on the scale of 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.879 opioids or obesity. Some studies equate the health effects of 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:58.280 loneliness with that of smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. In 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.760 twenty eighteen, a study by the Kaiser Family Foundation found 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.600 that one in five Americans said they always or often 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.560 felt lonely or socially isolated. And this was years before 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:15.400 COVID exacerbated the problem. So I wanted to figure out 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:20.039 what causes loneliness, that feeling, and you know, especially around 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.560 the holidays, if there was anything we could do for 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.400 ourselves or others to make it feel. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:26.479 Or be a little bit better. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.080 Julie Scheckter is the founder and CEO of Small Packages. 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.240 Julie has studied the negative impacts that loneliness and isolation 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:39.120 has had on our society. 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:41.080 She wants to end it for good. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:43.640 Her goal is to help guide us back to a 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:54.920 place of prioritizing relationships, friendships, and genuine connections. So you 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:59.000 are an entrepreneur, but I was very interested to learn 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.640 that you're also a relationship wellness expert. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:03.960 So tell me a little bit about what you study. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.559 So that's kind of the genesis for why I got 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.560 into this company in the first place. So what I 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.280 study is basically just relationships and how they affect our 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.320 mental and emotional and physical health. There's something called the 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.240 loneliness epidemic at work in the United States today. I 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.919 did not make that term up, but was coined by 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.160 Surgeon General Vivic Murphy, and he started talking about this 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.280 way way back in like twenty seventeen, So this really 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:39.079 predates COVID, But basically just the idea that we are 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:44.519 now lonelier, not just we millennials, but sort of American 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.520 society at large is a lot lonelier than we've ever 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.800 been at any point in our history to date, and 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.520 that has a whole bunch of different reasons behind it. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.120 The organizations of our communities, how we leave our communities 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.880 of origin as we grow in ways that we didn't before. 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.160 One of my favorite books I read in college was 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:12.680 Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, and basically the ethos of 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.040 it and the title Bowling Alone means that in America 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.399 in the fifties, we had bowling leagues and every Wednesday 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:21.799 night or Thursday night, people would get together and they'd 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.400 bring their balls, and they had team shirts and. 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:25.320 They would bowl together. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:31.320 Yeah, and now society has changed and everything is so individualized. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.480 And in the book he talks about the breakdown of 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.920 American community, American society. When you look at loneliness, what 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.880 do you think has contributed to our isolation over the 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.040 last fifty sixty years. 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.440 I think it's so much. I think a big part 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.880 of it is just like the larger societal patterns that 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:58.240 individual people don't necessarily feel like they control. But when 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.480 you look at them, we also sort of assume that 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.160 that is the way that life is going to go. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.520 So what I mean by that is I'm a perfect example. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.000 I'm sort of patient zero right. I grew up in 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.720 Los Angeles, and then throughout the rest of my adult life, 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.760 I went to law school in Boston and came back, 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.480 and I moved to New York. And I've done all 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.520 sorts of different careers. I've moved for partners and for 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.280 jobs and graduate school. And most of the people who 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.600 are in my cohort have done the same thing. And 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.640 so we find ourselves, you know, in our thirties and 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.320 our forties, having children, starting families. But we're all just 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.120 so scattered, like everybody that you love is just across 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.440 the entire United States, if not the world. So I 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.240 think it's it's a whole host of factors, but it 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.840 kind of comes down to globalization. And movement is such 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.960 a wonderful thing because it opens the doors for everybody, 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.719 but it does tend to have that unfortunate underside, which 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.600 is is lessening the structures that used to keep us 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.440 together that we took for granted. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.240 Yeah, it feels counterintuitive because you think, like I can 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.640 jump on an airplane and get to my friend in 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.520 New York faster, But you're right, we're all in these 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:16.960 silos now more so. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.240 Yeah, And I mean modern travel obviously is amazing for that. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:28.120 But relationships we're seeing tend to be more dictated by 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.799 who you're actually around. They're dictated by proximity more often 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.800 than they're dictated by depth of feeling. Like if you 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.320 were to name the five people that you care most 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.320 about in life and the five that you see most often, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.279 I'm sure there's some overlap on that list, but it 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.560 wouldn't be a completely overshadowed Ben diagram. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.120 You're right, So I was interested to read that the 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:57.360 idea of extreme social isolation was really close to your heart. 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.880 You went to Harvard Law School, and I read that 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:03.240 you experienced it while you were there, So what did 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:04.400 it open your eyes to? 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.080 It was honestly crazy. So I actually started out as 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.960 a ballet dancer. I was a dancer for pretty much 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.160 all of my life, and so I was moving and 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.240 interacting with other people, Like, you can't be a dancer 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.839 in isolation, right, So that was what I was going 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.039 into life thinking was the norm. Then I got to 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.080 Harvard Law School and I was, you know, studying it. 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.080 Honestly was even after that when I was practicing at 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.800 the international law firm that I went to afterwards were 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.719 sort of like sold this dream of success, right, like, 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.080 You're going to get this fantastic office with the mahogany 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.400 desk in your name plate, and it's going to be amazing. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.840 And like day two, I knew that I had made 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.680 a huge mistake because I was sitting behind that desk 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.960 working incredibly long hours and talk to anyone, you know. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.880 I mean, you have your sort of group, your cohort, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.760 that you go through your law internship with. And of 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.640 course I saw the other people at the firm that 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.080 I worked with, not as much as you would think. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.560 And you're just realizing that like this golden dream of 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.520 like the money in the prestigious career means that, like 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.440 the bulk of your waking hours, you're about yourself. And 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.920 so even though I think law is an incredibly noble 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.600 career and I'm so glad to have had that experience, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.320 that was kind of my first like light bulb moment 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:38.160 that success on paper often can lead, you know, successful 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:42.600 professionals to be really really isolated in the day to day. 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.360 I mean, this was so prominent on your heart that 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.240 you started a company around it. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.440 So your company is called Small Packages. 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.920 You started in twenty eighteen, and you let Customers craft 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.840 custom gift boxes for different occasions, so some are for 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:05.320 the happier times summer for more challenging times. What were 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.440 you seeing that you that made you know there was 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.320 such a need here? 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:14.320 So the big thing was I couldn't go. I couldn't 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.400 be there in person for all of these big events, 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.080 not just the wedding, but you know, the baby shower, 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.120 or that like random Thursday night when someone's broken up 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:25.680 with their boyfriend and they just want to sit on 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.840 the couch with you and drink wine and talk about life, 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.960 like most of those things that I couldn't get to, 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.600 and so I wanted to have a way to show 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.319 up tangibly for those people in my life and let 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.760 them know, like, I can't be there in person, but 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.720 I'm really thinking about you. This relationship is so important 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.559 to me. But I also didn't have the time to 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.760 do the legwork of like putting something together. So I 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.000 kind of just looked around online for other solutions that 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.080 were sort of, you know, in keeping with the aesthetics 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.440 and the values that you know, we want to stand behind. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.959 Just really couldn't find anything, so decided to start at myself. 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.719 And so, how do you feel like these small packages 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:11.600 combat loneliness. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:16.080 They're a way to let people who are incredibly busy 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:22.480 but feeling isolated reach out and show up thoughtfully, authentically 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.600 in the lives of the people that they care about. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.760 So are like bestsellers one that's just all about like 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.800 self care, so very you know, you'd multipurpose, you know, 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.240 if somebody's having a birthday, or they're having a baby, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.440 or whatever it happens to be, it's sort of this 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.440 like all around way for them to take care of 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:41.600 someone else. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:41.920 You know. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:43.319 I think it's interesting. 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.880 I hear a lot of people talk about isolation with 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:51.120 the elderly, and while I think we all assume that 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.880 the elderly are likely to feel lonely or isolated, which 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.160 they are, I was interested to learn that thirty percent 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.160 of millennials have reported feelings of either extreme social isolation 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:07.480 or loneliness. What does science say in terms of why 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:09.400 millennials are feeling so lonely. 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.240 My answer is going to be so obvious, but it's 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:17.680 so true. It's technology. It's the fact that we now 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:23.439 rely so heavily on social media and just the literal 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.559 technology of our phones. We get tricked, like we get 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.880 biologically tricked into thinking that we are connecting with someone 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.840 when we like an Instagram story or we send them 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:41.920 a text. But the biology of connection says the opposite, right, Like, 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.640 you move a relationship forward with somebody when they can 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.679 hear your voice or they can see your face. And 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.880 so that's why in the tech that we're building now, 0:10:52.960 --> 0:11:00.320 we're really focused on intimacy, like biological intimacy, in order 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.240 to move relationships forward. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.560 It's interesting to hear you say that. I thought of 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:05.160 two things. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.720 One is I definitely feel more connected to people when 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.959 I'm on FaceTime. Yeah, but smell is a big sense 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.360 for me, and I can't smell them. And I heard 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.880 Gloria steinem speak one time and she said that it's 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.480 actually hard for humans to feel complete empathy without experiencing 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.640 all five senses, which I found to be fascinating. So 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:33.680 touch feels smell here, that's important. So I think that 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.360 sending a package to somebody hits a lot of those senses. 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:39.960 It's funny that you say that, because that's actually part 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.880 of our sort of like secret sauce, you know, don't 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.640 tell of how we curate these things. Is we make 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.319 sure that all of those different things are covered. 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.880 So I know you mentioned the Surgeon General in twenty 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.480 eighteen he called this a public health epidemic. Epidemic's a 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.760 big word to use for the surge in general. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:00.920 Where are we now? How do you think the pandemic 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:01.760 shifted things? 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.200 I hate to be a pessimist, but the obvious answer 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.160 is it's gotten much worse. A lot of people have 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.679 been barred for several years at this point from having 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.280 that kind of immediate contact with the people that they 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.960 love if they are far away. I didn't see my 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.400 own family in t life for almost a year, which 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.920 is like unheard of for how we normally do things. 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.480 It's getting better. I think the one thing we can 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.360 sort of like call a silver lining is I think 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.760 we were all so obsessed with hustle culture or whatever 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.679 we want to call it before the pandemic that this 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.480 really was sort of a stop you in your tracks moment, 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.960 and for people who had been building their lives purely 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.000 for achievement or the next thing, like, we really sort 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.800 of got reoriented. But I think we're going to be 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.719 battling the side effects of this verb for quite some time. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.680 People definitely have suffered because they've been isolated unfortunately. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.559 What do you think the difference is between isolation and loneliness? 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.120 That's really interesting, So scientifically they talk about sort of 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.480 two different types of loneliness. One is situational and one 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:18.559 is chronic. So situational would be a college freshman who 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.920 is in a new place with people that she doesn't 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.760 know for the first time. She hasn't made that core 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.000 group of friends yet, so she's kind of like feeling 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.240 outside the swing of things, but she has a whole 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.520 network to call upon. She can call mom that she loves, 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.839 her best friends or at other colleges, and she'll eventually 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:40.120 move out of it. She's still reaching out. Chronic loneliness 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.600 is the more sort of insidious, dangerous piece happens so 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.600 much to the elderly, but in lots of other communities too, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:53.000 where it's sort of that learned helplessness behavior, where you've 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.240 been so lonely for so long that you're no longer 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.920 trying to fix it effectively. Sort of your literal brain 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:07.800 chemistry has changed enough that you expect the world to 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.199 be this way, you expect to move through it alone. 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.600 On a biological level, how does loneliness impact our health. 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.440 Way more than you would expect. There have been so 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.240 many studies done on it. There was one interesting one 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.320 that came out by Harvard Business Review. But it affects 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.400 every single component of your health, right, so I think 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:35.080 most people think it stays in the realm of the emotional, right, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:39.080 Like I feel lonely and therefore my emotional health is 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.880 not great. The physical is actually the part of it 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.520 that shocked me the most. There is one study done 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:50.120 that said, if you lose that very close cohort of 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.400 friends that we all sort of like come up with 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.960 as we're growing up, if you lose that entirely, it 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.240 has the same effect on your body as smoking fifteen 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:05.040 cigarettes day, which is wild, right, Like we are all 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.120 now at the point where we know that, you know, 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.120 lighting up is absolutely terrible for you, but we sort 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.400 of just go gentle into the good night of thinking 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.960 that losing those lateral connections is just a normal part 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.480 of adulthood. But it really doesn't have to be. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.440 And I've heard podcasts and read things with heart surgeons 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.360 who talk about dying or being in pain from a 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.920 broken heart, so to speak, and a broken heart really 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.120 means loneliness, It really does. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.840 Yeah, I'm forgetting off the top of my head exactly 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.080 what the condition is called, but it really is sort 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:48.360 of overstress on your heart because it's pumping so much 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.840 faster to try to circulate blood to replicate the feeling 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.520 of somebody else like being close to you, which is 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.280 just so wild right to now be in the stage 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.160 where we're finding out that their biological underpinnings to all 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.080 of these things that we sort of thought were just 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.600 on the lighter end of the spectrum. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.640 I don't know what the answer to this is, but 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.760 I was wondering if loneliness is ever a good thing, 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.040 because sometimes the experiences that are good for us are 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.640 paired with a certain amount of isolation. Not always, but sometimes. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.440 I think moving to a new city is an example 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.440 of that. Quitting a job that's not serving us is 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.160 an example of that. Sometimes even breaking from a relationship 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:32.960 or a friendship. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.440 Is it ever positive? 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:41.440 I think it can be in certain doses. Being outside 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.840 your comfort zone and having to be self reliant and 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:51.920 sort of testing your metal can be really formative, fantastic experiences. 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.640 I think the difference between a situation like that and 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.320 one where we get really concerned about somebody's mental and 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:05.240 physical health are Do you have a support network to 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.560 lean on if you need to? So, yes, go bravely 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.280 into the unknown, move to the new city, break up 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.520 with the boyfriend that's not serving you, et cetera. But 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.320 do you have that network of people around that you 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:24.320 can call at midnight when your resolve starts to weaken 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.000 a little bit and they can pump you back up 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.280 and get you ready for whatever is coming next. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:30.760 That's a really good distinction. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.520 Your Twitter bio says you're working to help people delete 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.320 Facebook and connect in real life. Technology Actually, you said 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.480 in particular, is hurting us in terms of loneliness. Is 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.080 there a way that we could be utilizing it that 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.720 could actually be helpful or connective. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.879 Yeah. Absolutely, that's what we're working on now, actually the 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.320 sort of next iteration of our business. And I think, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.600 you know, I'm no ledite, I'm very pro technology. I 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.400 think the dangerous thing that's been happening with the rise 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.520 of social media over the past like ten or twelve 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.160 years is tech isn't the problem. It's relying on tech 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:14.040 to be the connection rather than using tech to facilitate 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.000 the kinds of connections that we know actually bring people 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:18.119 closer together. 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:19.080 Huh. 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.280 I guess it's like using it versus letting it use 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.600 us exactly right. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.640 I mean, there's nothing wrong with using technology to make 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.119 your relationships stronger. It just can't be the stand in. 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.439 I've been dying to find out what you think about 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.280 remote work, And I asked this because when I first 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.760 moved to LA, I didn't have a job, and part 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.800 of I think a happiness came when I did get 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.640 my first job and was working with people who then 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.160 became my friends. I had like it was called Clever TV, 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:53.840 and I worked at this little it was like a 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.280 YouTube conglomerate basically, and so it was actually very fun. 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.920 But I had really good friend that I met at work, 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.440 and those were some of my first I would say 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.800 strong or reliable connections in LA. I look at my 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.680 cousin who just graduated from college, and because of the 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.320 pandemic and the shifts we've made, he doesn't have that. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.240 He's working from home, and I think it's depressing. But 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.199 now at the stage I'm at, I could not go 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.600 to an office every single day, So it's weird. It's 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.680 like help and I think that's a whole different thing 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.320 with you know, parents and moms in particular not having 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:31.480 flexible work schedules. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.399 But tell me your your whole take on remote work. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.240 So I am always going to be a proponent of 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:42.400 it because I've seen it work so well in our 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.520 own situation. So my co founder, Monica and I actually 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.080 met virtually during the pandemic. We were introduced by a 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.600 mutual friend, and so we know from experience it can 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.000 be pulled off. And because we started that way, we've 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.439 kept the company going that way and as we've grown. 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.320 You know, our CTO lives in Indiana. We hired another 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.600 wonderful woman who lives in Chicago, and so we've just 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:13.120 kept building in that way and supplementing it when we can. 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:17.280 So we do sort of roughly quarterly, you know, team 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:19.760 get together so we can have that sort of like 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:24.480 in person emotional and physical hit of bonding. So we 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.359 know that it works, at least on a small scale. 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.040 I think it's just tough, you know. I mean, you 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.160 can build relationships virtually, of course you can. 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.359 It's not the same, especially when you're right out of school. 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.240 It's not the same. You're totally right, So I don't know. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.720 I think it's it's the trade off of what you 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.159 want to prioritize. And I think a lot of people 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:54.080 now are prioritizing the relationships with their family and their friends, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.760 and remote work lets them have that, right. If you 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:01.879 can work from anywhere, you can be with you know, 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.080 those five people that you care about most of the 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.640 world more of the time. Right. At least how we're 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:14.000 trying to approach it is just ultimately leaning on choice, right, Yeah, 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.040 you know what works best for you in your in 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:18.800 your life. 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:19.159 You know. 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.440 On your Twitter page this post caught my eye. 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:23.840 You said, why does society tell us that we don't 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.920 need our friends past a certain age? Why does having 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.960 it all mean partner babies, splintering the glass ceiling, but 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.920 no time for friendships that meant everything to us. 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:33.680 When we were younger. 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.920 So I'm curious as to why you think so many 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.720 of us put friendship lower on our to do list 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:41.880 of life after a certain age. 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:46.760 I see it happening in my own crew, right, you know, 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:53.640 people are starting to get married, have children. Time is finite, right, 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.520 and so it really only makes sense that we're going 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.840 after and spending our time on the things that we 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.320 get rewarded for, right, you know, I mean we get 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.800 accolades at work when we're sort of climbing the corporate 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.879 ladder in a really impressive way. Of course, the benefits 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.600 of having a partner and children are like these wonderful, 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.320 beautiful things. So I'm not denigrating that part of it 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:23.160 at all. It's just there's no societal infrastructure that rewards 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.560 or encourages or supports lateral relationships. 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:29.000 Right. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.760 So in college or just when you're kind of just 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.720 starting out, you have a roommate, right, or you have 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.520 the people that came up with you, and that's just 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:43.320 sort of the norm. But as you move through life 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:47.280 and you sort of take on these other roles, they 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.359 fall away, right, Like a group of friends, like on 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.160 friends that are like well into their thirties and hanging 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.800 out in a coffee shop. Like it's made up for 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.800 a reason, right, Nobody really has has that kind of 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.960 time or that kind of space in their lives unless 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.800 it's something that you aggressively prioritize. So I mean it's 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.640 less that people don't think it's important, but that it's 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:15.080 something that you have to consciously pour resources into. 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:20.600 From a scientific perspective, what value do friendships bring to 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:21.159 our life? 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.600 So? So much. So a big part of it is 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:34.320 just physiological ease, like literally lower stress, lower anxiety, lower inflammation, 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.600 if you can believe it. And it makes sense because 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:42.920 your friends are the people that don't need anything from 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:45.920 you except for you. Right in a relationship with a 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.679 romantic partner, there's a lot of give and take of 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.640 a certain kind. With your children, you know, they need 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:56.199