1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Piazza, and this is the Sicilian Inheritance, Chapter six, 2 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: my big fat Sicilian family. Okay, the DNA results are 3 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: in this Email's so funny. It says, it's the moment 4 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: you've been waiting for. All right, I'm gonna click it. 5 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna click it. 6 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: In the middle of investigating my family story, I finally 7 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: did it. I took a DNA test. 8 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 3: Fuck. 9 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Of course, I don't remember the password. It was this 10 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: ancestry dot com kit. They sent me a little tube. 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: I spit in the tube. I mailed them my spit. 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: And then one day, many weeks later, after I had 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: forgotten that I even took this test, I got an 14 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: email back. 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: With my results. 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: Oh no, those are right password? 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 4: All right? 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: Okay? 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: Huh. Ethnicity estimate thirty one percent Ireland, twenty eight percent 20 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: Sweden in Denmark. That's my mom's side of the family. 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: No surprise is there. But my dad's Southern Italy is 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: only ten percent. To my knowledge, he was half Irish, 23 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: half Italian. With how intensely proud he and my family 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: members are of their Sicilian background, I was definitely expecting 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: at least a quarter Sicilian, not quite Northern Italy six percent, 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and then Cameroon Sardinia two percent and Jewish one percent, 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: but Southern Italy only ten percent. Your ethnicity estimate is 28 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: ten percent, but it can range from zero to twenty 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: seven percent. That's so interesting. Break my dad's goddamn heart. 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: All right, So what else does this tell us viewed 31 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: DNA matches? Now, besides breaking down your ethnicity from a 32 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: few drops of spit, ancestry also gives you a bunch 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: of other people who spit into a vial, and maybe 34 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: your family members. 35 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: It's like magic. 36 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: Some of these people I definitely know. We have six 37 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty eight. Fourth cousins are closer. Gail Caputo, Yes, 38 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: that's my aunt Sharon. All right, there's Laura. I think 39 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: that's Laura. All these people I don't know where they are. Second, 40 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: third guys, I don't know any of these names. So 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: I guess what we want to do is go through 42 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: literally all of these people and figure out if there's 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: anyone we can contact that has, you know, any more information. 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: All of these people might just have one more little 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle that adds up to Therenza's life 46 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: and death. 47 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: That's the thing. 48 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: About this investigation. It might just take one little detail 49 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: buried in some distant cousin's memory to unlock the entire mystery. 50 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: For us, this is I mean, this is just a 51 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: lot of people I don't recognize. This feels really daunting. 52 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: I think this feels really daunting. Looking at my expanded 53 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: family tree, I've got to tell you, I was a 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: little bit overwhelmed. So I called up a woman named 55 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Krista Cowan. I think you're one of the biggest genealogy 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: influencers on the interwebs. Yeah, probably, Christo works with ancestry 57 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: dot com, but she's also better known as the barefoot genealogist. 58 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: I took the DNA test. I am only ten percent Sicilian, 59 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: when we thought it was a full robust quarter. 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 5: Sure, sometimes when you start digging into family history, your 61 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 5: perception of your identity shifts. Your identity always was what 62 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 5: it was, but your perception often is confronted. 63 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: I had this very neat and tidy vision of my 64 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: family tree on my dad's side. You will recall I 65 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: even made a poster of it. But I can see 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: now what a tiny sliver of the whole family that 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: is so far out of Lorenzo's whole family. We've only 68 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: been talking to people in Santo's line of descendants, but 69 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: she had seven children, So these are six other branches 70 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: and rabbit holes that I can go down. 71 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting. And when you think about it, like 72 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 5: we're called ancestry because most people want to climb up 73 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 5: the family tree, right, They're looking for the ancestors your parents, 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 5: your grandparents, your great grandparents. But then back in twenty twelve, 75 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 5: when autosomal DNA kind of burst on the scene. 76 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: Quick aside here. That's the type of DNA that places 77 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: like ancestry dot com and twenty three and me use 78 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: to estimate people's ethnicity percentages. It can also identify possible 79 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: relatives through their partial DNA matches. 80 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 5: What we were doing was we were connecting living people 81 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 5: who share a common ancestor. So people started climbing back 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 5: down the family trees looking for those descendants. 83 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: I can now go out and seek cousins who are 84 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: descended from other children of Lorenza's I also realized talking 85 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: to Christa, who I love by the way, that I 86 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: can broaden out even more than that. What about the 87 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: descendants of mystery man Nicolo Martino? He may have been 88 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: married to Lorenza's sister, and that's just another branch of 89 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: the family. Did Niccolo Martino have children of his own? Grandchildren, 90 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: great great grandchildren? Where are they and what do they know? 91 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,679 Speaker 5: You know, what I am most curious about is who 92 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 5: else knows the story and how else it's been passed 93 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 5: down in the different branches of the family tree. And 94 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 5: so you have the story as it's come to you 95 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 5: through your branch of the family tree. And what about 96 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 5: that other gentleman and his family, Like what story was 97 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 5: passed down to them? 98 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: That's exactly where I was gonna go, Krista, That's exactly 99 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: where I'm going next. 100 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: Okay, what am I writing? 101 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 3: Am I? 102 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: What am I typping? I started sending messages to every 103 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: cousin whose information I could get my hands on. 104 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: God, this is weird. 105 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: This is kind of weird. Do I mention the murder? 106 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to be that creepy cousin. I'd write 107 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: something along the lines. 108 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: Of, Hey, I think we're cousins. Weird question. 109 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: Do you know anything about this possible murder of our 110 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: mutual great great grandmother Lorenzo Marcella in Sicily over one 111 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: hundred years ago, no worries if not thanks. This guy 112 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: says nothing in detail. I just know that's her in 113 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: the picture. I got a few answers, not my no response, 114 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: no response, no response. Why does anyone want to talk 115 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: to me? I'm so friendly? And then I waited. I waited, 116 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: and I hoped that someone else would finally get back 117 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: to me with some answers. 118 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: And in the meantime, I. 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: Started digging into the family's immigration records. Now we all 120 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: knew that they'd come through Ellis Island, son by son, 121 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: daughter by daughter. I started there first, and I got 122 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of help from the wonderful director of 123 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: the American Family Immigration History Center at the Statue of 124 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: Liberty Ellis Island Foundation. 125 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: His name is Stephen Lean. 126 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: He is a history magician, is what he is. Thank you, 127 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Stephen. He was able to pull 128 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: all these documents for me, not unlike the ones that 129 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: we saw in Cultamelota. And what we learn is that 130 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: my family arrives at the Port of New York in 131 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: little clusters year after year. Antonino and Santo Accursia and 132 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: veto arriving on the USS Lucagna, the USS Dante Alighieri. 133 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: All of them list their last permanent residence as Caltabalota 134 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: and their final destination Scranton. There's a column for closest 135 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: relative already in the United States, so you can see 136 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: all of these webs of relationships between the Piazzas, the Marsalas, 137 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: and the Grottos who are already here, and then those 138 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: coming from back home. They mostly list the same address 139 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: in Scranton as their new home. And I know that 140 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: it is unlikely, but as we're going through all of 141 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: these pages and pages of documents, this little part of 142 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: me hoped that Lorenza would show up here. That Lorenza's 143 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: name would be on a boat manifest that she's joining 144 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: her family, listing that same address. Stephen looked and in 145 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: none of these documents could he find a Lorenza Marsala 146 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: as a passenger. But Lorenza does show up in the manifest. 147 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: Her children give her name when they're asked who in 148 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: their family they're leaving behind. Now, there were a few 149 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: things that I hope to learn from these records. They 150 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: don't just list the first time that someone comes to 151 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: the United States, but every time they enter the country. 152 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: So if Lorenza's husband, Antonino, ever went back to Sicily 153 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: and then re entered the United States. For example, if 154 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: he had returned home and perhaps done something to his wife, 155 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: that could show up here. But no, Antonino appears in 156 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: the manifest only once. But what about the Suns? Did 157 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: they go back? And what about the story of the 158 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: son who drew the short straw? 159 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 6: So the boys drew straws to find out who was 160 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 6: going to go back to that village and kill whoever 161 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 6: killed their mother. 162 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: That's after the break, y 'all. 163 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: Joe here, you may have noticed that this show is 164 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: a sort of travelog throughout this series. I am truly 165 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: hoping that you feel like you've gone on an expedition, 166 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: adventure journey with me to solve my great great grandmother's 167 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: century old murder. Our true intention is that by the 168 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: end you actually feel like you've gone on both vacations 169 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: and affect finding mission with me, traveling across the Atlantic 170 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: to the gorgeous Mediterranean island of Sicily, all through the 171 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: magic of podcasting. For me, Sicily has some real main 172 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: character energy, and I hope you feel it too, So 173 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: to help drop you even more into that experience, we 174 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: want to offer a warning with this podcast. I do 175 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: not want you listening to this without some delicious food. 176 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: And so what better way for me to continue to 177 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: follow in my father's sometimes haphazard footsteps and also be 178 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: a champion of one of Sicily's best exports, then by 179 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: bringing you some actual Sicilian olive oil. I have actually 180 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: partnered with Philadelphia's own Cardinis Gourmet Foods. It is a 181 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: woman owned and operated shop to bring you the Sicilian 182 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: inheritance olive oil. I like to call it a flavor 183 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,599 Speaker 1: journey from the volcanic soil of ancient groves through the 184 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: special terhraar that fly secrets and inherited stories provide yeah 185 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: with a taste of fresh off the vine tomatoes and 186 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: a hint of almonds. It is not only an incredible 187 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: olive oil, but we know that it is. 188 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 2: Going to transport you. 189 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: To the beautiful and sometimes dangerous island of Sicily. So 190 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: join us get even more into this journey by getting 191 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: your very own bottle today at Cardinis tap room. You 192 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: can check the show notes for the link and the details, 193 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: and of course, thank you, thank you, and remember to 194 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast with something delicious. 195 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 6: I don't know how they knew, but they knew that 196 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 6: the United States. All the children knew that their mother 197 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 6: was killed, so they drew straws. 198 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: Somebody drew the short straw, figure sagely. 199 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: Literally, I have no idea, and that one would go 200 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: back and actually avenge her murder. As we learned earlier 201 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: from cousin Laura back in Sicily, this is the second 202 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: part to the family mystery. First we have the death 203 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: of Lorenza, and then there's the supposed disappearance and reappearance 204 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: of one of her sons. 205 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 6: He went back and he killed that guy. 206 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: I heard it with Uncle Joey who's straw? 207 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 7: Yes? 208 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: And did you hear is an actual straw? 209 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 6: Like like an actual like they something? Everyone seemed everyone 210 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 6: seems to think it was an actual straw. We know 211 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 6: how he killed him, I don't know. Don't know how 212 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 6: he killed him. I don't know, but he killed him. 213 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So just to remind you, in the nineteen seventies, 214 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: my great aunt got a call from a VA hospital saying, Hey, 215 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: there's this guy here and he claims that he's your uncle, 216 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: the mysterious Uncle Giuseppe, now going by Uncle Joe, And 217 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: he shows up on my family's doorsteps, senile and definitely unwell, 218 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: and he claims that decades earlier, he'd gone back to 219 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: Sicily and killed whoever had murdered his mother, and then 220 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: he went into hiding, supposedly to prevent a vendetta from continuing. 221 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 4: Get to hide from the black Hand. And story has 222 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: it that he was missing for many, many many years, 223 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 4: and no one knew where he was as he was alive. 224 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 4: If he were dead. 225 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: Romance, he didn't return the United States, and for fear 226 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: of the mafia trailian he y only kneed himself from 227 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 3: the family. 228 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 6: He came back to the United States, but he never 229 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 6: rejoined the family. 230 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: Now we know for sure that this guy really existed, 231 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: and he really did just disappear from the family and 232 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: then reappear decades later with a crazy story to tell. 233 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 6: We used to get him out of the hospital on 234 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 6: Sundays and for calidays and stuff like that, and he said, oh, 235 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 6: I'm so happy to see my family because I was 236 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 6: always afraid to come back to my family because I 237 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 6: know what they would do. 238 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: Many of my family members took this strange Uncle Joe's 239 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: story as gospel. As yes, of course, he went back 240 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: to Avenge his mother's murder and killed those guys and 241 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: then returned many decades later. Others take it with a 242 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: grain of salt. They say things like, well, he wasn't 243 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: in his right mind when he came back. We don't 244 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: know what was true. But here's my question. What I 245 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: want to know is if anyone knew the story of 246 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: Lorenzo's murder before this Uncle Joe reappeared. And so I 247 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: asked my relatives that you've already heard from Lorenza's great grandchildren, 248 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: most of whom were in their twenties around that time. 249 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: I asked them whether they grew up with the story 250 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: of Lorenza being killed or did they learn about it 251 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: a little bit later, maybe in the seventies, when this 252 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: so called avenging son just shows up and plants the 253 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: seed of a story. Could that be the first time 254 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: that anyone was hearing this. I'm curious about where the 255 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: origin story about all of this came from, and did 256 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: it come Maybe from that uncle who was unwell right, 257 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: So if he was maybe a little bit crazy and 258 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: unwell in the mind, maybe the story came from him 259 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: and it's not true. 260 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 8: Yeah, very possible, Joe, right, I from my understanding he 261 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 8: became crazy from running and hiding. 262 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: Right, but we also know that he was in He 263 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: left America to go to World War One and fought 264 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: in World War One, so maybe he was shell shocked 265 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: and unwell. 266 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 8: Yes, yes, absolutely, that could have been a piece event, right, 267 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 8: so interesting? 268 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 5: Oh my god. 269 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: There is one remaining son of Santo still alive, a 270 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: grandchild of Lorenza, uncle Polly. He's in his nineties and 271 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: he's still pretty sharp. On most days, his hearing isn't great, 272 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: and so I asked cousin Sharon to help me ask 273 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: him some questions from her house in Rochester. When when 274 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: does he think the first time he heard it was? 275 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 8: When do you think was the first time you heard 276 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 8: that your grandmother was murdered? 277 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: I don't know. 278 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 8: It's just in a family hit, That's that's what it was. 279 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, do you hear that? 280 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah, I think when you were a kid you 281 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 8: heard it. 282 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: I knew nothing down. 283 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 5: And as as I got older, right, I heard that 284 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 5: she was in murdered and so forth. 285 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all. 286 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: He didn't remember growing up with this story. Polly knows 287 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,239 Speaker 1: it now, but he doesn't remember how or when he 288 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: first heard it, even though he did tell me that 289 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,239 Speaker 1: while he was growing up, he spent a lot of 290 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: time with both Santo and Santo's siblings, all of Lorenza's children. 291 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: And did they talk about Lorenza? I mean, did you 292 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: know her name or did no one talk about her? 293 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 3: No? 294 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 8: They never, I never talked about it ly. 295 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: So Polly couldn't confirm exactly when this story started circulating 296 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: around the family and if people were talking about it 297 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: before Uncle Joe's arrival. It's strange. I tried reaching out 298 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: to more cousins and asking them about this mysterious Uncle Joe. 299 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: I heard back from one on Instagram who told me 300 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: that she remembered that her mom didn't want him around 301 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: the kids because she found him kind of scary, and ultimately, 302 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: she says they took him to the local mental hospital. 303 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: Uncle Polly confirmed that too. This cousin that reached out 304 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: to me on Instagram, she's been listening to the podcast 305 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: and she told me that she talked to me on 306 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: the phone. She was very excited about it, but then 307 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: five minutes later she wrote back and said she couldn't. 308 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: She said that some of her other family members told 309 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: her not to talk to me. Just seems like our 310 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: family is good at keeping secrets, lol, she wrote back. 311 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: M M. 312 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: But lucky for us, there are some things we can 313 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: actually fact check with Ellis Island. I asked Stephen to 314 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: look a couple of things up for me. Does this Joseph, who, 315 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: as we said, was originally called Giuseppe, does this Joseph 316 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: Giuseppe Piazza show up more than once in the ship manifests? 317 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: Did he come to the US and then leave again 318 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: and then return? In other words, is there a way 319 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: that in these old documents we could actually see if 320 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: he was the son who drew the short straw? Now, 321 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: Stephen pointed out something very important. Lorenza died during World 322 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: War One, and during that time it would have been 323 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: very difficult for people to travel back and forth from 324 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: Europe to the US. But then Stephen found a record 325 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: for me. A Giuseppe Piazza born in eighteen eighty seven, 326 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: died in nineteen seventy one, and it says that this 327 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: Joseph Piazza served in World War One January to May 328 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighteen. He entered the war really late, and 329 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: he was a little bit old to be a soldier. 330 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: He was thirty one. Now, remember the uncle Joe, who 331 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: resurfaced in the late sixties or early seventies. He had 332 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: been in a VA hospital and he did eventually have 333 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: a military burial according to records, So it seems like 334 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 1: this is the same guy. This Joseph Piazza has a 335 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: much spottier census record than the rest of his family. 336 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 1: While other members of the family show up dutifully every 337 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: ten years in American records, as you would if you 338 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: are being counted by a census, if you were getting married, 339 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: having kids, applying for drivers license or Social Security numbers, 340 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Joseph doesn't show up for decades. So could it be 341 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: that this Joseph the possible drawer of the short straw. 342 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: Could he have enlisted in World War One just as 343 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: a way to get back to Italy, just to get 344 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: revenge for his mother's murder. The timing is definitely suggestive. 345 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: But even if he did go to Sicily around this time, 346 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that he killed anyone. But there's something 347 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: else here, There's something that pokes a hole in the 348 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: entire story. Stephen found evidence that another one of Lorenza's 349 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: sons went back to Sicily right before she was killed, 350 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: and he stayed there for six years. Vito Piazza, Lorenza's 351 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: second son, the second oldest he all, also went back 352 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: to Italy to fight in World War One, but he 353 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: was fighting on the side of the Italians years before 354 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: his brother Joseph enlisted to fight for the United States. 355 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: According to these records. 356 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: That Stephen found, Veto was definitely in Cultabalota on and 357 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: off between the years nineteen fifteen and nineteen twenty one. 358 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: He got married there, he was having babies there. Those 359 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: babies are listed in the record books. 360 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: So here's my question. 361 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: If Veto went to Europe in nineteen fifteen, if he 362 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: was in Sicily in nineteen sixteen when his mother was killed, 363 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: why would another son in the United States have needed 364 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: to draw a straw at all? One son was already there, 365 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't veto have carried out the revenge killing. And if 366 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: someone carried out this vendetta at all, would veto really 367 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: have chosen to stay in the same town where his 368 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: mother was murdered for five more years until returning to 369 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: the United States in nineteen twenty one. 370 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 2: That is, if a revenge killing actually. 371 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: Happened at all, he had to go over and curing 372 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: the vendetta by killing the murderer or murderers. I don't 373 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: know why were too. 374 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: My uncle Jim has always claimed that someone or some 375 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 1: ones were in fact arrested for Lorenzo's murder. 376 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: There wasn't a trial and they were acquitted if the 377 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: trial was in Shaka, which is down the mountain on 378 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 3: the coast. 379 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: A trial, he claimed in the nearby mafia run town 380 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: of Shaka. Uncle Jim said that the murderers got off 381 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: scot free, and that's why one of Lorenza's sons had 382 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: to go and get justice on his own. 383 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 3: I'd love to read the trial script then, of course, 384 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 3: should know the whole story, at least you know their 385 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: account of it. 386 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: If that trial happened. If those records exist, then we 387 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: could learn who was accused of Lorenzo's murder and how 388 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: they supposedly killed her, and maybe we could also figure 389 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: out which of her sons might have tried to get revenge. 390 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: But I'm gonna need those court records, and I had 391 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: to figure out how to get them all the way 392 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: from my house in Philadelphia. Since our trip was cut 393 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: short because of the wildfires, I didn't get a chance 394 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: to go to the courthouse myself, so I had to 395 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: enlist some boots on the ground. 396 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 7: Okay, so my name is Laura and I'm a third 397 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 7: generation Italian American. 398 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: After making a bunch of phone calls, I found a 399 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: woman named Laura Lee. Laura's an American who lives in Sicily, 400 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: but she's also a researcher, a really good one. She's 401 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Drew, living in Calabria, and over the past few 402 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: years she's taught herself how to navigate Italian bureaucracy in 403 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: order to help Americans find documents about their families. 404 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 7: I would run into people who would just be lost 405 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 7: and wandering around these little small towns and they're trying 406 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 7: to find people. And so that's how my business started up, 407 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 7: which is called Digging. 408 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 6: Up Roots in the Boot. 409 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: Laura is one of the best researchers that I've ever met. 410 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: We are so lucky to have her to start. She 411 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: went back to Caltabolota to get us an official copy 412 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: of Lorenzo's death certificate. So far, we were operating with 413 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: the sneaky photo in the commune that I was definitely 414 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: not supposed to take on my phone. 415 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 7: I got not only Marsala's but I got the one 416 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 7: for Nicolo Martino. Yeah, oh my gosh, yes, yeah, so 417 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 7: I sent those both to you. But basically what the 418 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 7: translations are is that the Cadabignerti were called out because 419 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 7: they found these two bodies. 420 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: The Carbagnari are the Italian military police, so. 421 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 7: The Cadabignerti did whatever they do when they find bodies, 422 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 7: how they handle it, and two days later it was 423 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 7: brought to the attention of the vital Statistics department and 424 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 7: that's when they registered it on the twenty sixth of 425 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 7: February nineteen sixteen. But when I was talking with the 426 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 7: man in the commune, he told me that if it 427 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 7: was handled within two days and reported that quickly, he 428 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 7: doesn't see the likelihood of it having been a homicide, 429 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 7: because he said, if it was a homicide, there probably 430 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 7: would have been an investigation and autopsy and further information 431 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 7: before they reported the death. 432 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 9: Wouldn't they just report the death either way and then 433 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 9: potentially keep investigating. 434 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 7: Well, I asked him that question, and this is only 435 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 7: his opinion, right, he doesn't know, he's not an expert, 436 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 7: but that was his opinion, and he confirmed the information 437 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 7: that you had where it was at that little crossroads 438 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 7: intersection where the bodies were found. 439 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 9: And there was no details about oh there was a 440 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 9: lance or there was no. 441 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 7: And I asked if they knew of anything that had 442 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 7: happened during that period, if there was some kind of 443 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 7: natural disaster or something that could have happened, and he 444 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 7: wasn't aware of anything that happened during that time. 445 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: Next up, Laura actually got access to Cultabolota's criminal files, 446 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: but nothing on murders. We'll get to that in a second. 447 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: But she did find a bunch of Marsalas engaging in 448 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: different kinds of crimes. 449 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 7: I did find some of the documents that I found, 450 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 7: I think are related to your theory of the land 451 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 7: struggle between the Marsalas. 452 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 9: Oh you do, like, let's talk about that. 453 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 7: So in nineteen sixteen, Giuseppe Marsala, who was a son 454 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 7: of Jocomo and Paula Coctone, and he was sentenced because 455 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 7: he was carrying a knife illegally an the illegal weapon. 456 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: I won't bore you with every little detail here, but 457 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: basically it's a timeline of all these petty Marsala on 458 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: Marsala crimes. And I don't recognize most of these names. 459 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: They seem to be second and third cousins. People in 460 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Lorenzo's generation are maybe even older. 461 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 7: In nineteen eighteen, there was a Serafino Marsala who was 462 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 7: found guilty of land encroachment. In nineteen twenty one, the 463 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 7: Giuseppe Marsala, son of Jacomo, was found guilty of grazing 464 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 7: his sheep illegally on somebody else's land. 465 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: Marsala's carrying illegal knives, Marsala's letting their sheep graze in 466 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: places they're not supposed to be grazing. Marsala is encroaching 467 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: on each other's land, Marsala's encroaching on other people's land, 468 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: and sometimes it escalated pretty dramatically. 469 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 7: So this Vincenzo Marsala, whose Jacobo's brother, went to Jacomo 470 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 7: Marsala and Paula Cartone's home with a gun in his 471 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 7: hand and threatened to kill them, and that's nineteen nineteen, 472 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 7: that was nineteen twenty. 473 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: Nineteen twenty, took a gun and threatened to kill them. 474 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 7: So this was an internal family dispute, an internal family 475 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 7: dispute within Marsalis. So who knows how long the encroachment 476 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 7: was going on before was actually brought to the courts. 477 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: Right right, it can be going on for a long time. 478 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 9: Yeah, this feels kind of fruitful, especially if we can 479 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 9: find where that encroachment was. 480 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: All of this raised some big questions. Was this the 481 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: land that Lorenzo was supposedly killed over? Was this the 482 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: land where she died? 483 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 9: Basically the follow up questions definitely being like who owned 484 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 9: the land that those. 485 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: Bodies were found on? H where was that land? 486 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 9: And like how close or not close was it to 487 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 9: where they were found. I just feel like here now 488 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 9: we have much more a potential contextual understanding of what 489 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 9: could be a motivation HM. 490 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: Another thing that I think a lot of this research 491 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: makes clear is that land disputes were clearly a thing, 492 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: clearly an issue, like probably one of the biggest issues. 493 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 7: Well it wasn't, though it was one of the biggest 494 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 7: issues with the Marsalas. 495 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: Laura said that in the timeframe she was searching in 496 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: Culta Balta's criminal records, most of the theft was of firewood. 497 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: There were also a few charges for letting your sheep 498 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: grays on other people's land, but there were not a 499 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: lot of people stealing each other's land except the Marsalas. 500 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 7: In those six years that I searched, the only land 501 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 7: disputes that I found were with these Marsala names. 502 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 5: That's kind of interesting. 503 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: That is interesting. 504 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 7: Yeah, so there was a big dispute or some kind 505 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 7: of divide in the family at some point or another, 506 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 7: or there were two separate Marsala families that just didn't 507 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 7: get along. 508 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: For some reason. 509 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 9: When you described the situation in which someone arrived with 510 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 9: a gun, it made me think, wow, like, how common 511 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 9: was it to even have a gun? 512 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: Then you know, it would. 513 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 7: Be common to have a rifle for hunting, but it 514 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 7: wasn't common to have a pistol exactly. So that to me, 515 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 7: is very uncommon. And for it to get to the 516 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 7: point where you show up at your brother's home with 517 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 7: a pistol tells me that this is a feud that's 518 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 7: been going on for a while. 519 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 3: Not to have it. 520 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: Messy, messy, these Marsalas. 521 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 7: But for some reason, there were no homicide records in 522 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 7: the archives at all. 523 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: Here's the frustrating thing. Laura could only get her hands 524 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: on non homicide criminal court records, no murders. If there 525 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: is a court case related to Lorenzo's murder, Laura couldn't 526 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: see it. She was told it had to be requested 527 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: by a lawyer or someone connected to the case, maybe 528 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: a descendant. So it sounds like I need to go 529 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: back to Sicily. But before I do, all right, So 530 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: I found this guy on ancestry. He has the most 531 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: complete Piazza family tree on ancestry dot com. One of 532 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: my many messages to my many random cousins actually paid off. 533 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: I reached out to him like a year almost a 534 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: year ago. 535 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: This is me telling my husband about it. 536 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: They are also a great great grandchild of Lorenzo Marsala, 537 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: and I said, hey, I want to talk to you 538 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: about what you know about our family stories. But they 539 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: do not want to be identified, and they were like 540 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: real shady about it. This cousin, I won't name him 541 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 1: because he didn't want to go on the record for 542 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: kind of a ridiculous reason. He told me that his 543 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: grandfather also talked about Lorenza and he would say, you know, 544 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: that was over there and she was helping helping people 545 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: get paid. And I'm like, what does that mean? And 546 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: he said, my grandpa said, I think she was mixed 547 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: up in collecting money for the Black Hand. Could it 548 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: be was Lorenza not a victim of the mob, but 549 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: maybe a. 550 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 2: Part of it. 551 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: And this guy goes I think one hundred percent she 552 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: was collecting money for the black hand. You don't just 553 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: get killed out of nowhere. They don't just happen to 554 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: murder innocent old ladies. 555 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: That's next time on The Sicilian Inheritance. 556 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: The Sicilian Inheritance is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with 557 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. The series is produced by Jen Kenney, Kate Osborne, 558 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: Derek and me Joe Piazza, with key help from Laura 559 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: Lee Watson of Digging Up Your Roots in the Boot 560 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: and Chiro Grilow of Sicily Roots. Many thanks to Julia 561 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: Paraviccini and the ancestry dot com research department. You can 562 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: get your copy of The Sicilian Inheritance the novel right 563 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: now at Truly anywhere that you get your books, anywhere 564 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: you get your books. It's got the same name as 565 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,959 Speaker 1: the podcast, but with more food, wine, and sex. Also, 566 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: do not forget to get a taste of Sicily in 567 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: the form of delicious Sicilian olive oil at Cardena's tap room. 568 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: Make sure to check out our show notes for a 569 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: link to buy it or if you find yourself in Philly, 570 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: just stop by. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangashtikador, 571 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: Costas Linos, and Oz Wolloshan. From iHeart, executive producers are 572 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvelle and Nikki Etour. We also want to thank 573 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Connell Burn, Bob Pittman, and John Mary Napolis.