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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear, listencast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting

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Speaker 1: apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear. For every hunt,

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Speaker 1: First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer, Good Lord. David Grant

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Speaker 1: is here staff writer at New Yorker Magazine, number one

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Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author of, among other books, the

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Speaker 1: book I'm probably most jealous of because it was one

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Speaker 1: of those books you just see so much you get

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Speaker 1: sick of seeing it. The Lost City of z I mean,

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Speaker 1: how what a huge success?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah it was.

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Speaker 3: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was a big success. You would have done much

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Speaker 2: better on your journey through the Amazon, and I get

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Speaker 2: that way, Yeah, it would have been a totally different

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Speaker 2: book had you done it.

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Speaker 1: The Los Cities, the Killers of the Flower Moon, the

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Speaker 1: oce Age Murders, and the Birth of the fbi Ano

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Speaker 1: They're like just huge book, Los Cities. He became a movie,

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Speaker 1: So some people are probably sitting there being like, is

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Speaker 1: that a movie?

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Speaker 2: There's a movie? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh, Killers of Power Moon becoming.

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Speaker 2: A movie, becoming a movie be out in October.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you've heard of uh fellers like Martin Scorsese, Leo DiCaprio,

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Speaker 1: de Niro. I don't know. Maybe those names are ring

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Speaker 1: a bell. These are people who would be affiliated with.

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Speaker 4: This.

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Speaker 1: But the one that makes me most jealous is a

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Speaker 1: lot of jealousy in the room today, Stergil Simpson. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know this, ty. I read it in Krin's note.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw that in there.

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Speaker 1: What the hell is he doing?

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Speaker 2: That's you know, Scorsese loves his musicians. So you have

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Speaker 2: and you have Adjason is spell too is another great

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Speaker 2: they're both terrific in it too. And yeah they're they're terrific.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if any of them acted before. They're fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's great, man. But what we're here taught about

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Speaker 1: is uh David Grand's latest book, The Wager, the Tail

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Speaker 1: of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder. Just as a quick little

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Speaker 1: just a quick little thing that we got. We got

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Speaker 1: to touch on a couple of quick things and we'll

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Speaker 1: come back to you.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 1: The I could tell this amused you too. I was

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Speaker 1: amused by Uh. Well, first I say, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a tail of shipwreck, So it involves ships. Obviously. How

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Speaker 1: many things we say today are nautical terms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there there's so many there. It's kind of wonderful.

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Speaker 2: It's like and I had no idea how I did

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Speaker 2: this book. So, I mean, there are just so many ones. There's,

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Speaker 2: for example, scuttle butt, Yeah, scuttle but with this barrel

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Speaker 2: on the ship where the seamen would gather around they

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Speaker 2: get their water rations, what would they do around their breath?

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Speaker 2: They gossip? The other one that really well, there were

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Speaker 2: so many there was like piping hot was the Boson's

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Speaker 2: whistle for a hot meal. Pipe down was the Bosn's whistle.

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Speaker 2: To quiet down under the weather. Under the weather is

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Speaker 2: the best. I mean, I always just let under the weather.

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Speaker 2: It was this perfect metaphor for sickness, but it turns

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Speaker 2: out it's completely literal. When you were on a ship

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Speaker 2: and you were sick, you could not serve on deck

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Speaker 2: on watch, so you stayed below. You were quite literally

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Speaker 2: under the weather. And perhaps the most popular one was

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Speaker 2: was to turn a blind eye, which was when Vice

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Speaker 2: Admiral Horatio Nelson wanted to ignore his superior's signal flag

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Speaker 2: to retreat in battle, he took his telescope and he

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Speaker 2: put it up to his blind eye. So that's why

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Speaker 2: we say, to turn a blind die to this thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's look that it's tied to, it's

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Speaker 1: tied to an actual person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: I Unfortunately, once I knew where they all came from,

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Speaker 1: I felt weird that I use them all without knowing

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Yeah, what am I? What was I saying?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I knew what I meant, But the

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Speaker 1: fact that you could live your whole life with an

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Speaker 1: expression and it never occurs to say when I say that,

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Speaker 1: what am I talking about?

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Speaker 2: I think that's always just because this is like another

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Speaker 2: example of like how history completely shapes us even more

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Speaker 2: utterly oblivious to it.

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Speaker 1: Uh someone, Yeah, we're gonna get this story has Oh

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Speaker 1: it's just it just turns into uh, just a sickening

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Speaker 1: just sickening aspects to the story. Heartbreaking. But some people

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Speaker 1: live to tell the tale. So and not only that

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Speaker 1: they live to tell the tale, they live to argue

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Speaker 1: about the tale. And we're gonna get pretty heavy into

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Speaker 1: into this story of the Wager in a couple minutes,

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Speaker 1: so we'll come right back to that. But we got

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Speaker 1: a couple things to hit on in the This is

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Speaker 1: now the fourth time we've discussed the fifth time. Actually

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Speaker 1: this might be the this might be the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're honest. If you honestly, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: If I've been in these conversations.

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Speaker 1: A lot of companies came out and and just and

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Speaker 1: have recently distanced themselves from kangaroo leather. And so we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about where how all this kangaroo leathers generated

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Speaker 1: in Australia and how just the the geopolitics around kangaroo leather.

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Speaker 1: And we were talking, someone was saying that it's not

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Speaker 1: a popular food item, all right.

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Speaker 4: That was Morgan on the Cape Buffalo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he was from That's right. We had a genuine Australian. Yeah, say,

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Speaker 1: it's not a you know, I grew up in Australia.

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Speaker 1: It's not a common food item. This guy says, I

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Speaker 1: am Australian and currently we have kangaroo tenderloins in supermarkets.

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Speaker 1: He eats it every week. He says, one reason why

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Speaker 1: ozies don't eat kangaroos because it's part of our coat

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Speaker 1: of arms. And he tries to equate it to uh,

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Speaker 1: if we were to eat the bald eagle.

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Speaker 4: Right, we're trying to figure out, you know, like why

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Speaker 4: is it like tainted in people's minds when it's you

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Speaker 4: know potentially I mean the numbers of kangaroo are so

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Speaker 4: so insane.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they're like they're for crop damage purposes.

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Speaker 1: This is kind of the crux of what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: For crop damage Australia is killing millions of kangaroos. You

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Speaker 1: not buying the products has no impact on that. That's happening.

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Speaker 1: Oh the killing of the end, it's like and looking

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Speaker 1: at the issue there and how it's worked and how

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Speaker 1: the government approaches it. That's happening, that will continue to happen.

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Speaker 1: Whether or not they go into a hole in the

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Speaker 1: ground or not is a completely different issue. But you

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Speaker 1: saying no wor kangaroo leather is not having it's not

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Speaker 1: a social activism. That is that it has consequences on

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Speaker 1: the ground.

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Speaker 5: I imagine it probably has a pest like uh you know,

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Speaker 5: aura around it, and that probably prevents people from eating it.

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Speaker 5: I mean there's so many just everywhere. He's sort of like, eah,

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Speaker 5: hit him with cars. They're eating your garden and.

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Speaker 1: They see human advertizing.

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Speaker 4: People at restaurants. They're also it's served at fine dining

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Speaker 4: establishments in Australia. So we were just trying to figure out, like,

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Speaker 4: what's what the issue is.

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Speaker 1: The Audubon society. Man, I don't know how. I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know as much detail this. I just read

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Speaker 1: Dan Floy's very great book, Wild New World, which is

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Speaker 1: a ecological history of Well, he came on the damn Show,

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Speaker 1: so he wrote an ecological history of the continent. It

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Speaker 1: where do you begin? He began with the chick Salube strike,

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Speaker 1: which is the asteroid that collided with into the Gulf

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Speaker 1: of Mexico off of tells that place over there off

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Speaker 1: the Yucatan Peninsula, at a angle that he described very

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Speaker 1: eloquently when it struck, I used to think of it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I thought of the asteroid. I never

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Speaker 1: thought of the angle. The impacts of the angle at

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Speaker 1: a very shallow angle, struck the earth and blasted, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the sun died for years, all the dinosaurs, a

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Speaker 1: most all the dinosaurs died, the biggest sort of ecological

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Speaker 1: disaster to ever befall the earth, and then takes it

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Speaker 1: from there. Eventually he gets to this fella Audubon and

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Speaker 1: Audubon and Dan Floyd's Wild New World. Audubon is a

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Speaker 1: somewhat celebrated figure because he he starts to paint all

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Speaker 1: these these endemics. He starts to paint these beautiful paintings

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Speaker 1: of birds from North America, including the ivory will build woodpecker,

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Speaker 1: which when extinct. He has paintings of the passenger pigeon,

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Speaker 1: and he he he brought them to life. He would

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Speaker 1: paint them in uh, in a sort of context of

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Speaker 1: how they interact with them each other, how they interact

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Speaker 1: with their environment. And so he became synonymous with American

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Speaker 1: wildlife birds in particular. He did not found the Audubon Society.

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Speaker 1: Later when they when they created the Autobon Society, they

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Speaker 1: named it after this individual who was had such a

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Speaker 1: profound impact on the way people perceive wild birds and

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Speaker 1: celebrate wild birds. Uh. The dude own slaves and the

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Speaker 1: guy he owned slaves, and not only that I don't

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Speaker 1: understand the details of this, but he was rolled into

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Speaker 1: efforts to dig up Native American burial sites. I don't

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Speaker 1: know the details on that. Damn sure own slaves. Was

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Speaker 1: not an abolitionist, and it came up with the Audubon Society.

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Speaker 1: They conducted this like internal this internal review that recommended

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Speaker 1: that the Audubon Society change its name. The board rejected

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Speaker 1: the recommendation, and now in places where you could picture,

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Speaker 1: places that you could picture just saying we're going to

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Speaker 1: change our name anyway, changing the name anyway. And saw

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Speaker 1: this little fight brewing within the Audubon Society about what

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Speaker 1: does Audubon stand for? Does he stand for his work

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Speaker 1: on behalf of Birds? Does he stand for slavery? I

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Speaker 1: don't need to. I mean, you know, uh, culturally, we've

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Speaker 1: been talking for a long time and about what one

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Speaker 1: should do about that. The end of this, the end

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Speaker 1: of this conversation Will Will will someday land On, Does Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Become something different? And do we throw away

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Speaker 1: the Constitution because of the the what what the people

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Speaker 1: that wrote that were up to? If we throw away

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Speaker 1: the Constitution because it was drafted by people who held slaves,

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Speaker 1: then what framework do we use to have debates about

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Speaker 1: what's legal? I don't really know. It's very puzzling, It's

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Speaker 1: it's a tremendous intellectual exercise. What do you think, David,

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Speaker 1: just your top bosch shit.

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Speaker 4: Just hit you with that light.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's a thing. That's a conversation happening out

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Speaker 1: there in the in the wildlife. Uh, in the wildlife space.

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Speaker 5: We should give a shout out. I read that article

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Speaker 5: too that Karin has paceded in here. That was a

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Speaker 5: good article.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a great Did.

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Speaker 5: You read it all?

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Speaker 1: I read the whole thing.

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Speaker 5: Adam pop Aescu, I don't know how to pronounce his name.

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Speaker 5: Where do you find that article?

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Speaker 1: Kri Karinn pointed out that the quote she uses from

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Speaker 1: someone defending Audubon and defending the name. They follow up

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Speaker 1: the quote. It's very subtle, so the writer quotes it's

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Speaker 1: almost like I don't believe it. The writer quotes someone

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Speaker 1: defending Audubon.

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Speaker 4: And not changing the name, and.

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Speaker 1: Then it's like they give his quote comma as he

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Speaker 1: nudged a dead catfish with his foot by the side

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Speaker 1: of the pond.

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Speaker 4: Sure, it was bizarre because some of the interviews canducted

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Speaker 4: for this piece were conducted over the phone and some

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Speaker 4: of them were conducted in person, so you can picture

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Speaker 4: the writer walking and talking and recording and then transcribing

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Speaker 4: notes from there. But it was the first and I

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Speaker 4: think almost only time in this multi page piece of

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Speaker 4: writing where the quote, this quote was juxtaposed with like

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Speaker 4: a pretty profound, substantial, like well written, uh thought by

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Speaker 4: people who were in favor of changing their Audubon chapter's name,

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Speaker 4: so juxtaposed with this one quote. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 4: know how much this individual said and how much there

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Speaker 4: was the writer you know, could pull from, but it

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Speaker 4: was just kind of like basic plane speak and then

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Speaker 4: qualified with as he a dead catfish by the end

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Speaker 4: of the pond, And it was just very bizarre. I

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Speaker 4: was like wondering if that was some kind of covert

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Speaker 4: I don't know, I just felt a certain way reading that.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe it was right. Maybe the guy was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he asked me, it's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of bs. And then.

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Speaker 5: Kick he I mean the first three paragraphs are there

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Speaker 5: really is three or four sentences, but I mean he's

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Speaker 5: talking about a seventy six year old bird watcher at

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Speaker 5: a sewage treatment pond, and he goes on to describe

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Speaker 5: this and he even uses uh he says it one

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Speaker 5: guy uh says there's this quote says on dale side

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Speaker 5: stepping a human turd. I mean, I was I was

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Speaker 5: like hold on, what are we talking about again?

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Speaker 4: Here?

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Speaker 5: This is a story about Audubond, but he's side stepping

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Speaker 5: human turns.

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Speaker 4: He's painting the picture for where the conversation's taking place.

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Speaker 5: But he did a good job of getting hooked.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I think that they were like, well, you can come

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Speaker 1: to two events. We have one of at a sewage

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Speaker 1: facility and one is at a beautiful park. And the

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Speaker 1: writers like dude as one that likes a good metaphor.

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Speaker 4: That was in the free press. Yoh, need just to

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Speaker 4: ask your question, answer your question?

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Speaker 1: Uh uh, data graand we almost bumped you for this.

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Speaker 1: We got a note that says a guy writes in

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Speaker 1: I can tell his name, says, if you're looking for

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Speaker 1: a podcast, guess with a crazy story, I can get

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Speaker 1: you in touch with my brother in law. His wife

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Speaker 1: slowly poisoned him over the course of a year or so.

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Speaker 1: She also poisoned his mom and sisters. She's bad, shit crazy.

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Speaker 2: That'll be my next book.

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Speaker 5: There's a title for it there.

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Speaker 1: I laughed so many times that note, because I was

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Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, I'm it, is this an exclusive figure?

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Speaker 1: Well no, there's more.

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Speaker 4: There's more to it. It could be an exclusive.

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Speaker 1: All right diving in. I want I want to I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure we have tons of time to

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Speaker 1: talk about the wager. I want to you know how

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Speaker 1: we talked about the all the terms that came up.

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Speaker 1: I want to want to go a little bit out

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Speaker 1: of order. Can you explain the the great details you

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Speaker 1: have about the burial at sea and that you would

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Speaker 1: with the needle, just explain it is the weirdest thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you when you died at sea is

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Speaker 2: a last Unfortunately, many people died at sea on this expedition,

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Speaker 2: about nearly two thousand people went, and only about of

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Speaker 2: them about more than thirteen hundred parish and many of

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Speaker 2: them were buried at sea. And so when you when

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Speaker 2: you died at sea, they would have a ceremony and

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Speaker 2: they would usually wrap you in a hammock, your hammock,

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Speaker 2: and they would put up some kind of weight, sometimes

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Speaker 2: of cannonball or some other weight in the in the

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Speaker 2: hammock attached. But before they they would sew you into

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Speaker 2: the hammock, and before they dumped you overboard, they would

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Speaker 2: make sure the last stitch they put through your nose,

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Speaker 2: just to make sure you were actually dead. They didn't

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Speaker 2: want you waking up going down into the ocean with

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Speaker 2: a cannonball, dropping you to the depths of the bottom

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Speaker 2: of the sea. So one of the rituals was they

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Speaker 2: would they would.

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Speaker 5: Was there ever an account of the last stitch waking

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Speaker 5: someone up?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, you do have to realize medicine back

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Speaker 2: then was so primitive that it actually it sounds absolutely naughty.

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Speaker 2: You know, you could seem comatose to somebody. They wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have the mechanisms, so and you know, you're at sea

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Speaker 2: in a storm, so you know, you kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's both crude. But yet, yeah, I suspect there

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Speaker 2: probably was sometime. I mean, the thing about seamen and

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Speaker 2: rituals that they did actually develop for a reason they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't waste time. So I suspect there must have been

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Speaker 2: in some story that they had that motivated to do it,

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Speaker 2: because they're not gonna waste time sewing something through your nose.

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Speaker 2: But that's what they did.

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Speaker 1: Yew.

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Speaker 5: There was a couple of successes of medical treatments that

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Speaker 5: were you wrote about in the book. And I was

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Speaker 5: surprised to hear that, oh, there's a surgeon on the

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Speaker 5: boat and he actually like had success doing this thing.

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Speaker 5: It was christ surprising.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were surgeons on board, but you know, but

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Speaker 2: you know, the the you know, the key thing that

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Speaker 2: the surgeon had to do was basically amputate. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that was the thing they had to amputate. They had

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Speaker 2: to amputate quickly with no you know, you had no anesthesia.

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Speaker 2: You know, they didn't give you booze because it actually

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Speaker 2: would make it more dangerous and your two of your

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Speaker 2: seamen would hold you down and they chop off your limb.

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Speaker 2: That was usually the main, you know, the main thing

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Speaker 2: a surgeon did on board. But they did have certain

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Speaker 2: medicines that they would try to give you. But you know,

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Speaker 2: they didn't know what germs were back then. So you know,

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Speaker 2: on this expedition, first they suffered from typhus, and you

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Speaker 2: know they're going around the ship trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: what causes this. And of course this was during COVID too,

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Speaker 2: when I was writing about a lot of this, and

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Speaker 2: I'm leaving packages at the door, thinking I can't do

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Speaker 2: I touch the package, get the package, come inside. Is

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Speaker 2: it like twenty four hours outside and and you know

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Speaker 2: these guys are all you know, there's like you know,

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Speaker 2: often on the ship to be like five hundred people

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Speaker 2: all cloister together. They're social distancing, and you know they're

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Speaker 2: going around thinking, you know, is it in the air,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, you know, you know malaria, you

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Speaker 2: talk about words, it's the French or mill area bad ear.

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Speaker 2: So in that day they were thinking, you know, so

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Speaker 2: they're going around sniffing everything. Is it your breath? What

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Speaker 2: is it? What causes these things?

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Speaker 1: We should I want to set the scene a little

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Speaker 1: bit and get to well. In order to set the scene,

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Speaker 1: I want to like begin with the thing that that

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Speaker 1: seems like a fairy tale. I want you to talk

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Speaker 1: about the year and who and what and why. But

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Speaker 1: this expedition that we're going to discuss, and the voyage

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Speaker 1: of the Wager and an accompaniment with a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other boats. It seems so crazy to me that here

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Speaker 1: we are in the seventeen hundreds and they get intel,

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Speaker 1: the English get intel of a gold lace. It sounds

348
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Speaker 1: like like a like a setup for a pirate movie.

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Speaker 1: They get intel of a gold laden Spanish galleon that

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Speaker 1: will be showing up at such and such time in

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Speaker 1: the Philippines. Yes, let's send a two thousand people and

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many boats to sail across the Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: duck around Patagonia, get up to the Philippines and catch

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Speaker 1: the boat.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that was like, how is it?

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Speaker 1: If that wasn't a movie, I would be like, this

357
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Speaker 1: is a bad setup for that movie. It's so implausible,

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Speaker 1: it's so crazy.

359
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Speaker 2: And it's also crazy about it too, is that this

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Speaker 2: was a naval mission, so you know, but it had

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Speaker 2: a complete whiff of pirates. I mean, and I was like,

362
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Speaker 2: is this part of the naval mission? But that ship

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Speaker 2: was worth you know, it was laid in with treasure

364
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Speaker 2: plunder taken by the Spanish from Mexico and Peru, and

365
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Speaker 2: then they would haul it over to the Philippines where

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Speaker 2: they would use that plunder to buy Asian commodities. So

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Speaker 2: that's why it was filled, and that's why they knew

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Speaker 2: it would be going there.

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Speaker 1: And this is an annual and it's an annual trip

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Speaker 1: to the market.

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Speaker 2: An annual trip with exactly with lludic gold and silver

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Speaker 2: and jewels and gems. And it was worth about you know,

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Speaker 2: eighty million dollars. Eighty million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Did you do the did you do that? What that

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Speaker 1: I did?

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Speaker 2: That little inflation cockcat. What does that mean now, Yeah, no,

377
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Speaker 2: it's about eighty two million dollars, yeah, by in today's money,

378
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Speaker 2: my little inflation caculat. But yeah, and the ship was

379
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Speaker 2: known as the you know, to Europeans, the ship was

380
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Speaker 2: known as the Prize of all the Oceans. I mean,

381
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Speaker 2: that's how the seamen referred to it.

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Speaker 1: Uh, layout who and and and how many ships? Because

383
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Speaker 1: when I you know, it's it's it. It's about a ship.

384
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Speaker 1: But there's a there's a narrowing processes where we would

385
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Speaker 1: end up focusing very intently on this this one. But

386
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Speaker 1: it's part of a much It's like not even the

387
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Speaker 1: most impressive ship. Yeah.

388
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Speaker 2: No, In fact, it's kind of the ugly duckling of

389
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Speaker 2: the squadron. I mean, the squadron consisted of five warships,

390
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Speaker 2: including the Wager and a scouting sloop. The largest ship

391
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Speaker 2: was the Centurion, which was led by the commodore Georgia

392
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Speaker 2: Anson and the Wager. Yeah, it was a little bit

393
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Speaker 2: the ugly duckling of the expedition because it was not

394
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Speaker 2: unlike the other warships, it wasn't born for battle. It

395
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Speaker 2: had actually been a merchant ship trading and they needed

396
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Speaker 2: ships for the war, so they remade it. It was

397
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 2: about one hundred and twenty three feet long, had twenty

398
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Speaker 2: eight cannons, which made it the kind of lowest rank

399
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: warship was known as the sixth sixth rate warship in

400
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Speaker 2: the British Navy, which was the lowest rating, and on

401
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Speaker 2: board that ship was about two hundred and fifty men.

402
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 2: But even before you know, the squadron sets off, and

403
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Speaker 2: just just to comment on these ships too, is like

404
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 2: they really were these engineering marvels of their time, you know,

405
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: because they were these instruments designed for battle, yet also

406
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: these homes, these fortresses where people had lived together for

407
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: years at a time. They had three masts. The wager

408
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 2: could fly about twelve sales. The larger warships could fly

409
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: as many as eighteen saals to propel them. But they

410
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 2: were also very, very vulnerable to the elements because they

411
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Speaker 2: were made primarily of wood. A single warship could take

412
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Speaker 2: as many as four thousand trees oaks, yeah, oaks, hard

413
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Speaker 2: oak wood to build. And then the other huge challenge

414
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: of getting this squadron off, you know, even before we

415
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Speaker 2: get into the mission, was they also had to find

416
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: men and boys and the British Navy back then, you know,

417
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: Great Britain didn't have conscription and they had exhausted their

418
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 2: supply of volunteers. So they are going about desperate to

419
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Speaker 2: find men and boys, you know, demand these complex engineering ships.

420
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Speaker 1: The way you describe it the ships there, Yeah, it's

421
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: ready to go. And it's not like like you know,

422
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: you go to high schools and recruit people and then

423
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: they enter and boot camp and then they get trained,

424
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, and then years later they wind up like

425
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Speaker 1: in combat. It's they're like, we're ready to go. Where's

426
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: the people. We'll go to the tavern.

427
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they go quite literally go to the tavern. They

428
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: go to the tavern, and they send out the press gangs,

429
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Speaker 2: and they go to the taverns, and they go to

430
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: the ports and anyone coming in and they would basically

431
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: eyebaw you and if you you know, had any telltale

432
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: signs of a marina you had, like a little check

433
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Speaker 2: or shirt or one of these little round hats that

434
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 2: seeming off of more and the thing that also fascinatings,

435
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 2: they would inspect your fingernails for tar because tar was

436
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: used on chips to make everything water resistant. And if

437
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: you had those things. You were basically seized and in

438
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: effect kidnapped and dragged onto one of these voyages. You

439
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 2: wouldn't even have time to say go by to your family.

440
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: You might even be returning from a trading ship from

441
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: some long trip to the Asia. You've been gone for

442
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 2: two years. You get home and you think, I'm gonna

443
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: go see my family. Yeah, I'm coming home, and then

444
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: your your season, your and you're dragged on the ship.

445
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: And even then they were short of men, and so

446
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: they went they I laugh on because you develop a

447
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: gallows seamen sense of humor when you when you're right

448
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 2: about the stuff. But they they would go to they

449
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: went to a retirement home. They went to a retirement home,

450
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: and they seized retired soldiers and seamen who were in

451
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: their sixties and seventies. Many of them were missing an

452
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: assortment of limbs, you know, one was like you know

453
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: something that some were missing a leg. One tried to desert,

454
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: hopping on one leg away, and and some were so

455
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: sick they had to be hoisted on stretchers onto these vessels.

456
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 2: So the seeds of destruction, which we will get into,

457
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: i'm sure, but they were planted at the very inception

458
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 2: of the sex position.

459
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, the was the term like gang press, right.

460
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, press gangs. Yeah, and they would just press you, Yeah,

461
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: they would. They would they would roam around, they'd be armed,

462
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: and they would seize you and take you.

463
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: I can't remember if one of the guys you mentioned,

464
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: if he was on the wager, if it was just

465
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: an anecd pulled from another ship. But there's a guy

466
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: that gets press ganged, gang pressed, and he writes a

467
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: letter to his wife being like, hey, I'm just right

468
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: down on the shore here, but I'm not going to

469
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: like it looks like I'm going away for a couple

470
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: of years.

471
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: I can't get away. And what they would do, Yeah,

472
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: there's a letter from a semen. Because one of the

473
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: things they would do is they you know, most semen

474
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: back then could swim, and so they would take the

475
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: ships and rather than keep them at the dock yard,

476
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: they would actually anchor them out to see so that

477
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: way you couldn't escape.

478
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Yeah, he's looking, he's looking, and.

479
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: There's no way for no way for him to get ashore.

480
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

481
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 5: Uh.

482
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: So the wager had the total expeditions two thousand people, yep,

483
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: and roughly how many boats there.

484
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: Were ship, five warships, a scouting sloop, and then these

485
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: two little cargo ships that are supposed to company them

486
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: part way.

487
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: When they set off at that time, do they set

488
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: off knowing that, Hey, we're gonna get going and then

489
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna start dying from scurvy. No, So it's it's

490
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: a surprise every time it is.

491
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: I mean, they they you know, they know this is

492
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: a perilous expedition, which is why so many people tried

493
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: to desert. I mean they were all trying, many many

494
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: of them. Some people volunteered for the mission. Some people

495
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: thought they were going to come back with plunder. They have,

496
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: you know, visions of glory and ambition, but I don't

497
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: think anyone expected the level of hors that they encountered.

498
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: But walk through the scurvy challenge, it I get it.

499
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: Like you said earlier, they people didn't understand infectious disease, right, Yeah,

500
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: how does it play out? And if you know, I

501
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 1: can't know if you talk on your book, how does

502
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: it play out? And how does someone eventually say I

503
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: think this might have something to do with vitamin C.

504
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, so they crossed the Atlantic. Everything early on

505
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: begins to go wrong. First they have a typhus epidemic.

506
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: They cross the Atlantic, they're being chased by a Spanish

507
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: or Mada, which is larger. And then get to Cape

508
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 2: Horn where they're facing these storms. And it's at that

509
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: very point where they need every person to persevere, where

510
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: they begin to grow mysteriously sick. They can many of

511
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: them could no longer rise from their hammocks. Their skin

512
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: is changing texture and color. Then their teeth begin to

513
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: fall out, then their hair begins to fall out. And

514
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: then this just amazed me that the cartilage that seemed

515
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: to glue together the bones seem to be coming undone

516
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: within the bodies. There's an account from one Semen who

517
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: had broken a bone fifty years earlier at a battle,

518
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: and that bone, which had obviously long since haled the fracture,

519
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: suddenly mysteriously breaks in the very same place. And then

520
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: the other thing I didn't know about scurvy until I

521
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: researched the story was how it can affect your senses.

522
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: One Semen described to getting into our brains and we

523
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: went raving mad. And of course, yeah, they did not

524
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: know that the cure was so simple that all they

525
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: needed was more vitamin seeing their diet. Now, these ships

526
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: did not have refrigerators, so it wasn't common to bring

527
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: fruits and vegetables on the ship, so their diet completely

528
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: lacked it, and they didn't know what the cure was,

529
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: and of course, very tragically before the outbreak in which

530
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: hundreds of men perish. It's considered one of the worst

531
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: scurvy outbreaks ever recorded maritime moss.

532
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: So that was one of the worst.

533
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: Oh, one of the worst.

534
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, I didn't know if they just started to

535
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: take it as a matter of course that there would

536
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: be like a high level of attrition due to this

537
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: weird thing that happens in body.

538
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: But to your point, the scurvy was known as the

539
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: great killer of seamen. It killed more people than anything else,

540
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: other diseases, combined, naval battles, shipwrecks. So they did know

541
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: that scurvy was the great enigma of the age of

542
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: sail and the great killer. But they had actually stopped

543
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: in Brazil before for the outbreak, and there were all

544
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: these lines where they had stopped, and they just brought

545
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: these lines on the ship. And of course, as you said,

546
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 2: you know, later the British Navy would learn about vitamin

547
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: secured scurvy and they would bring lines, which is another

548
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: term that we now known. British semen were known as Limey's.

549
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: Interesting enough that it was actually after the horrors of

550
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: this expedition and the scurvy outbreak, there was a scientist

551
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: who actually conducted one of the earliest kind of controlled experiments,

552
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: and he dedicated to the commodore of this expedition, to

553
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: Commodore Georgia, and he did actually learn He didn't know why,

554
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: but he proved that vitamin C when they were given

555
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: it helped semen with scurvy. But it would still take

556
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: decades more. Really be the end kind of the beginning

557
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: of the turn of the century, the end of the

558
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: eighteenth century that the British Navy and others finally adopted

559
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: this knowledge to save human lives.

560
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: When I'm talking with my kids about yeah, I I

561
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: share with them how my dad was a big smoker, okay,

562
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: and that when my dad was in the war, they

563
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: would put in your sea rations, there were cigarettes in

564
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: your sea rations. In boot camp you would get a

565
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: smoke break, okay. And they're like, oh my god, that's

566
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: so stupid. How can people and you know think that,

567
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: And I said, well, here's a riddle for you. Right now,

568
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: today we are using things, eating things, doing things that

569
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: in one hundred years your descendants will be having a

570
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: chuckle about if you can identify those. That's a great

571
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: path toward heroism. Yes, it's perpetual. But this thing that

572
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: was kind of interesting that you brought in your book

573
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: was not kind of very interesting. They made the association

574
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: with being at sea and being at land to the

575
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: point that for a while they experiment with the recipe

576
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: or remedy. Being land seems to fix this. Yes, let's

577
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: take them ashore and bury them up to their neck

578
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: and dirt because it must be something about the soil.

579
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. They basically concluded there was something unnatural for humans

580
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: to be at sea, and they would obviously realize when

581
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: they came home and they would begin to change their diet.

582
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: They didn't connect it. They would get better. And there's

583
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: a wonderful letter from the lieutenant on this expedition saying

584
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 2: there must be something in the natural particles of land

585
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: and so Yes, one of the cures was they would bury.

586
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: There's this description of a seamen describing the strangeness of

587
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: seeing all these seamen buried in land up to their

588
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: heads hoping that might cure it.

589
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: Wow, lime peels.

590
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

591
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

592
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: The one thing I would say when you read this

593
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: book you'll get away is just bring lines. You go

594
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: to sea, just bring a line.

595
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: There's so much to cover here. Explain how the the

596
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: a real shitty part of this boat ride is going

597
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: around the bottom of Patagonia. So what happens there and

598
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: how we wind up where your story narrows in on

599
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: the Wager.

600
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So while all these men and boys are dying

601
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: on these ships, they are encountering and trying to get

602
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: around Cape Horn, which is a very tip of South America,

603
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: kind of the farthest landpoint in Ireland. And I always

604
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: knew it was a place with some of the worst

605
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: seats in the world, but I never understood why until

606
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: researching this. And what happens is it's an area where

607
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: the sea funnel between Antarctica and the tip of South America.

608
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: It's actually only place on Earth where the seas travel

609
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 2: uninterrupted around the globe without ever hitting land. Oh really, Yeah,

610
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: so they travel about thirteen thousand miles, accumulating power and force. Similarly,

611
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: nothing's blocking the winds and then they get funneled into

612
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: this area where it suddenly shallows dramatically, generating these enormous waves.

613
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 2: So you know you will have winds there that will

614
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: accelerate to hurricane force routinely. You will have the strongest

615
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: currents on earth. And then you'll have what is known

616
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 2: as the Cape horn rollers, which can dwarf a ninety

617
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: foot mast on one of these ships. Herman Melville, the novelist,

618
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: later went around Cape Horny joined that leak club. He

619
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 2: compared it to a descent into Hell and Dante's inferno.

620
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: And so this expedition, this squadron of wooden ships, is

621
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: smack in that hell. There's just no question. These ships

622
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: are being bandied about as if they were no more

623
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: than rowboats. They can't even fly their sails because they

624
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: keep blowing out in the storm. At one point, one

625
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: of the captains can't control the ship because they can't

626
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: fly sails. So he orders his topmen, which are the

627
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 2: people climb the mass. Ordinarily to work the sails, but

628
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: he asked them to climb these masks about one hundred

629
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: feet and to hold on to the rope spider like

630
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: like in a web, and use their bodies as concave sails,

631
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: as a gale force wind is blowing into them, and

632
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: they're about one hundred feet in the.

633
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: Air, and that would actually change the course of the boat.

634
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: That would they hope that would change the course. And

635
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: just one other thing to remember. They're also in waves,

636
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: so that the ship is rocking about forty five degrees

637
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: to one side and forty five degrees the other, so

638
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: you're on a complete pendulum, hanging onto a rope. And

639
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: in fact it did enable the captain to maneuver the

640
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: ship a little better. But one seaman was cast into

641
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: the sea and around and his companions could describe him.

642
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: It was just the most heartbreaking scene.

643
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: That is one of the more you talk about cases

644
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: in which people would fall to their death from the mast. Yes,

645
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: it'd be especially bad when you fell and hit your

646
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: head on a cannon.

647
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: Yes that would be the end.

648
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: But oh, it's just like soul. He falls off the

649
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: winds blowing the ship and they just stand there's no

650
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: way to go back, there's no way to go you

651
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: can't reverse now, and just he's swimming and swimming and swimming,

652
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: and then he's not swimming anymore.

653
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, until it's completely heartbreaking, and so you know, they're

654
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: in these circumstances and the ships are desperate to stay together.

655
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: You know, you appreciate some of the technological advances when

656
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: you read about this stuff. So for example, the ships,

657
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: you know, you just take communication for granted. You know,

658
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: they could have the only way they could shout to

659
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: each other, but in a storm, you can't you can't

660
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: get that close in those waves anyways. And so what

661
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: they would do is they were desperate to stay together

662
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: because they knew if one ship, if the ships got separated,

663
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: there'd be no one to save them if something went wrong.

664
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: And so they would fire their cannons, just you know,

665
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 2: blasting to signal of the location. But eventually the sea

666
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: and the sound of the you know, the wind and

667
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: the ways just drowns out that sound, and all the

668
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: ships get scattered in the storm, and the Wager, which

669
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: is under a new commander, David cheap It suddenly finds

670
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: itself all alone and left to its own destiny.

671
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 5: Did they have any like now that they would have

672
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: prior knowledge? But was there any any accounts before they

673
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 5: went through there that they would give them some idea

674
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 5: of what to expect.

675
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: So they did you know, one of the things they

676
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: would do, they say, were fairly uncharted realms that were

677
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: not a lot of people of British seemen who have

678
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: gotten around Cape Hoorn. But they did have some accounts

679
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: that they would bring and they would actually bring the

680
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: books with them to hopefully give them some as sense

681
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: and also used for mapping, because they didn't have any

682
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: detailed charts for this area. What's more, they never knew

683
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 2: exactly where they were precisely on the map. They could

684
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: determine their latitude easily, they would just read the stars,

685
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 2: see men Magellan had done that for ages, but they

686
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: had no way of knowing their precise longitude because that

687
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 2: would require reliable clock which had not yet been invented,

688
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: and so they had to essentially rely on what was

689
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 2: known as dead reckoning. That's where that phrase comes from,

690
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: and that the simplifier was essentially informed guesswork and a

691
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: leap of faith. And so when the wager it gets

692
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: around the horn, it's coming up the Chilean inside of Patagonia,

693
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: they they not only miscalculate their longitude, they miscalculate it

694
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: by hundreds of miles, and suddenly they are in this

695
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: bay which is now known as a Golf of the Painos,

696
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: which translates as the Golf of Sorrows, where some prefer

697
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: to call it the Gulf of Pain. And that's when

698
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: it first hits a.

699
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: Submerged rock and demolishes it.

700
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. So again, these ships are wooden. You

701
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: gotta imagine the level of terror. This is their home,

702
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: many of them, most of them can't swim. First they

703
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: hit one submerged rock, the rudder shatters, an anchor which

704
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: weighed two tons, falls and plunges through the hull, leaving

705
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: a gaping hole. Then another huge wave comes in. It

706
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: sweeps the wager, this one hundred and twenty three foot

707
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: wooden vessel, off the rocks. So suddenly the ship, their home,

708
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: is careening through this mindful of rocks. But they have

709
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: no rudder to stare by, and water is pouring through this.

710
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 1: Hole, killing people right in their place.

711
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, drowning people instantly. And then at last they

712
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: smash into more rocks, and that's when the ship completely

713
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: begins to shatter. You know, the wooden planks are all

714
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: breaking apart, the decks are caving in, the mass are

715
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: coming down. All this water is surging upward through the

716
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: bottom of the ship. Many of the men who have

717
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: been suffering from scurvy, they can't get out of their

718
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 2: hammocks in time. They drowned. Rats are scurrying upward, but fratuitously,

719
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: if you can call it that. The one bit of

720
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: fortune they have is that the ship gets wedged between

721
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: these rocks and so it does not yet completely sink.

722
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: And the survivors climb upon the remnants of the wreck

723
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 2: and they peer out, and that's where they see through

724
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: the mists, this desolate island.

725
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't. I assumed you did. I didn't know

726
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: that you did, And so I saw the sixty minutes

727
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: bit you did. Yeah, you went, you went and visited

728
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: where they landed.

729
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: I did. I did not. One of the smarter things

730
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 2: I've done. Yes, Yeah. I spent the first two years

731
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: doing research on this, just in archives. And then after

732
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: about two years, I was like, I just started to

733
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: have that doubt that gnaws that you was a writer, Like,

734
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: can I really understand what it was like on that island.

735
00:40:53,560 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: So I found this Chilean captain in an island off

736
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: Chile who said he could take me there. It was

737
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: about three hundred and fifty miles south to get to

738
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 2: Wager Island. He had initially sent me a photograph of

739
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: the boat, and I thought, oh, this looks good. This

740
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: looks like a Jack Gustav vessel. I'll be good, no

741
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 2: problem here. And then of course it took me days

742
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: to get there. I finally get to this island and

743
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: I see the boat and it's this kind of small

744
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: wood it's a wood heated vessel. You know, it's kind

745
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: of like you living off the land here. You know,

746
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: it was like it was, it was completely it was

747
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: you know, I had a stove. It was wintertime, heated

748
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: by stove. It was so tepestuous, the weather was so bad.

749
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: They were supposed to leave right away, and we couldn't

750
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: even leave the port. The coast guard had closed the

751
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: port down. They just would not let you leave the wind.

752
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: Nobody could leave the port. And after four days I

753
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: started wondering if I was ever going to get there.

754
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: And then finally the coast guard they lift the their

755
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: blockade or whatever it was, and they say you can

756
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: go out. And initially we go in between these channels.

757
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 2: I don't know how many people have been down to Patagonia,

758
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: but have you ever been a.

759
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: Patagonia, I've bolted down that cochd okay, so yeah, not

760
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: that far. Yeah yeah, out of the south the Santiago,

761
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: and then we went a couple hundred miles down the

762
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: coach okay.

763
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 2: So you know, like there's a lot of islands, and

764
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's like the end the coastline is very shattered.

765
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: Its like it's it's all these is lits, and so

766
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: you can weave behind these islands and stay pretty sheltered.

767
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: And so that's what we did for the first several days.

768
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: We didn't see another soul for days. No other boats,

769
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: oh nobody. It was just desolate out there. We would

770
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 2: stop at these little islands to chop down wood, to

771
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: get the wood to bring it onto the boat so

772
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: we could heat our stoves. Yeah yeah, and then we

773
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: would get our water. We would take a hose and

774
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: we would hook it up to the glacial stream. So

775
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: that's how we got water. Let me just tell you

776
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: it's the cold shower I ever had. Two seconds. I

777
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: was awake for a week. But and then after about

778
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: five days of this, the captain comes in and he says, okay.

779
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: But I don't know you guys, they didn't get that

780
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: level of detail.

781
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I don't know.

782
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: You guys would like stop and split stove with.

783
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, yeah great, yeah yeah.

784
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: And you're getting your water. I mean that's how we

785
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: got water to drink, lie and and to and to

786
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: keep the boat going. And uh and then a five

787
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: days the captain says, all right, well, you know, now

788
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: if we're going to get to wage On, and we

789
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: have to go out into the ocean and and so yeah,

790
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: that's when I got my first glimpse of the seas.

791
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: I mean it was just a fraction of what the

792
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: wagress saw. We get out there. This boat was really

793
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: designed for the channels. It was not designed for the ocean.

794
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: And uh, we are just getting pitched and rocked. So

795
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: you just I had to sit on the on the deck.

796
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: You could in the cabin. You could not stand. If

797
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: you stood, you were going to get chucked. I mean

798
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: you you just you held on. I had about every

799
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: seasickness sickness medicine going to Humankind. I was like a

800
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: little experiment, you know. I had like the I had

801
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: the you know, dramamine and the thing on my ear

802
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: and I'm used to seas I don't get seasick, but

803
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: I was like, I need everything for this one, and

804
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, we're just bouncing about. And then

805
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: I also made the mistake because I'm not the smartest

806
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: adventure I was like, all right, I got it. Distract myself.

807
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 2: And the one thing I had you couldn't read because

808
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: your eyes would, you know, going up and down. But

809
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: I had my phone with me, and I had an

810
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:07,479
Speaker 2: audible recording of Moby Dick. So I put that movie deck,

811
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: which really, in retrospect, was the stupidest thing because it's

812
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: completely unsothing, you know, so they have. But any case,

813
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: it's a very long story to tell you. We did

814
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: eventually go get across. We got out. The captain was

815
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 2: very skilled. We get through. We go through the Gulf

816
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: of Pain. We get to this island where these castaways

817
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 2: went and just as they they thought it might be

818
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: their salvation. And it is a place a complete wild desolation.

819
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: The trees are all bent at forty five degree angles

820
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: because the winds. It was winter when they were there,

821
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: it was winter when I was there. Uh so the

822
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: temperature hovers about freezing, very heavy precipitation. It rains or

823
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: sleets every day. And worst of all, like the castaways,

824
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: the worse for them. I brought food. They could find

825
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,479
Speaker 2: virtually no food on they could have really used you guys,

826
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 2: I mean.

827
00:44:58,760 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: I just.

828
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: I disagreed because when I was down there. One of

829
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: the things that the lack of there's a real lack

830
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: of land.

831
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: Mammals, no animals on that island.

832
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you spend a lot of time You're like,

833
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: there is a wild celery, yes, and you you couldn't

834
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: believe it, and you went and looked. There's not rats,

835
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: there's not some kind of rodent. There's not a bunch

836
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: of shore nesting birds because the shores are just wave

837
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: battered rocks. It's just there's not.

838
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: There's nothing to eat. I mean, there was, there's some

839
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: you know, there were some birds, but they stayed off

840
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: the coastline, you know, off the you know, made it

841
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: very hard for the castways to ever be able to

842
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: hunt them. There were some muscles along one of the beaches,

843
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: but they gradually exhausted that supply. They did eat celery,

844
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: which I tasted when I was there, was kind of

845
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: dry and salted a little bitter, And didn't you know

846
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: they would kind of mix it with stuff cook. But

847
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: any case, the thing for them actually, which was really

848
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: life saving, was that they didn't know why, but the

849
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: celery cured their scurvy. Oh it cured they'ir scurvy because

850
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 2: it had some vitamin seeing it and they had no

851
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 2: idea why. But they ate the cellar you so, but so, yeah,

852
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: so they are they begin to starve, they are. They

853
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: they try to build a settlement on the island, an

854
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: imperial outpost. You know. The captain wants to set up

855
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: He wants it to be governed by the same rules

856
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: that had existed on the ship, and the same regiment

857
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: they do early on shore, some real ingenuity. They build

858
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: little shelters and hamlets and whatnot. Only set up a

859
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: little irrigation system so they can get fresh collect fresh water.

860
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 5: But sorry, how many at this point.

861
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: Of forty five, about one hundred and forty five, including

862
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: the captain, David Cheap, the gunner, a guy named John

863
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: Bulkeley who plays a very key role on the island,

864
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 2: and a midshipman named John Byron who had been only

865
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: sixteen years old when the voyage sets sail. And if

866
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 2: the name misfamiliar at all to listeners or sounds familiar

867
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: because he would later go on to become the grandfather

868
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: the poet, Lord Byron, and Lord Byron's poetry is greatly

869
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: influenced actually by John Byron, the Midshipman's Oh yeah.

870
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: And a father son father son, that's another heartbreaker.

871
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 2: And a cook who's in his eighties. A cook who's

872
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: in his eighties. It survives the records. I'm that. And

873
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 2: there are boys as well.

874
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: There's a you get into an interesting little intellectual exercise.

875
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: They get into where I can't remember at what point

876
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: it happens, but at a point it comes to be

877
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: that the ship's gone, you are no longer on payroll.

878
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,919
Speaker 1: If I'm not on payroll and the ship's gone, why

879
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: do I have to listen to the captain? Yes, but

880
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: doesn't it be that he's not in charge anymore? Yeah,

881
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: and it was.

882
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a murky and yeah, they

883
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 2: would hold that debate. So some of the people who

884
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: are like sick of the captain and want to go

885
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 2: on their own, they're like, well, do we have to

886
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 2: follow them? They're always very conscious of the rules and

887
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: what might happen to if they ever get back to England,

888
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 2: because if they mute me, They'll get hanged. So they're

889
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: very country. They're like, well, have we found a loophole?

890
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: Have we found a loophole? So would this justify it?

891
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: It's like you can picture that, you can picture them

892
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: lawyering it out, but I'm not on pay, Like the

893
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: boat's gone.

894
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: The boat's got and then you know, what's a counter amendum.

895
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 2: So you know what's so interesting too, is that there

896
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: was then a like there was like you know, you

897
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 2: know these bureaucratic rules, so like the rules of the rules,

898
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: and then there's like an amendment to the rule. Actually,

899
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: so in the rules at the time, he said, if

900
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: you were actually still getting any provisions off the ship,

901
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: you were then still actually under naval command. So they

902
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: are trying to send out some salvage expeditions to see

903
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: if they can fish out of the wreck anything. So

904
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: the fact that then food. So you just see the

905
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: lawyering going on, like which amendment do we follow?

906
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: And they u talk about that that the Minnesota starvation

907
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: experience because you can see where this is going. Yeah,

908
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 1: this becomes a tale of great starvation and desperation. Yes,

909
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: And the book spends a lot of energy on the

910
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what do you call like the soul

911
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: like sort of the social cultural decay? I don't know.

912
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 2: The Yeah, what happens to human dynamics in society under

913
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 2: that kind of stress? You know, I mean the ship

914
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: is a floating civilization with its rules and order and regiment,

915
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: and what happens when that world disintegrates and then when

916
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: you're under the pressure of starvation. So I was very

917
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: interested in how this hunger affect the human body and

918
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: the psyche. And there was an experiment actually done in

919
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: Minnesota in the nineteen forties, it's now known as the

920
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: Minnesota Starvation experiment, where they cut over several months. The

921
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: people had volunteered for this experiment. They were all pacifist,

922
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 2: interestingly enough, and they cut their caloric intake by about half,

923
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: and they studied what happened. This experiment would never happen today. Yeah, yeah,

924
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: this would not have gone past the lawyers, but in

925
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: nineteen forty it got past the lawyers and so, and

926
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: they would study what happened, and you know, with half

927
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: clark intake, you know, they described how the people became

928
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: just increasingly obsessed with food, many of them who had

929
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: volunteer for the experiment thought because they were kind of spiritual,

930
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: they were pacifist. The thought, well, maybe this would give

931
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 2: them a deep part.

932
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 5: You just explain pacifism.

933
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they were just basically conscientious objectors. They didn't

934
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: believe in violence, they didn't believe in fighting, and so

935
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 2: that's in that sense, that's what they were pacifist.

936
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: So they were like stack of the deck. Yeah yeah, right,

937
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: instead of just going getting something they want the bar fight.

938
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,439
Speaker 2: No no, yeah, no, theyk they took the people right

939
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: and and instead, you know, just with even half the

940
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: clerk intake. Over a period of time, you know, they

941
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 2: watch how they got. They just become increasingly obsessed with food.

942
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 2: They become more and more irritable, they begin to fight.

943
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: One of the people in the experiment eventually says I

944
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: want to kill myself, and then he turns to the

945
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: one of the doctors or medics who's overseeing and says, no, actually,

946
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: I want to kill you. The same person as actually

947
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: began to fantasize about cannibalism. He was removed from the experiments.

948
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: But it just gives you a window in and I

949
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: think also a deeper understanding of how you know the

950
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: body and how much food can affect it. And of

951
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 2: course on that island they were suffering far greater nutritional

952
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: deficiencies than they did in that experiment. And how would

953
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 2: that affect them? How do you maintain social order? How

954
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: do you work with each other? Because working with each

955
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: other is in your interests, and yet you are starving

956
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: and consumed also their own self.

957
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 1: Interest and they have some factionalism.

958
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they splinter. They splinter initially into three groups.

959
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: One group, the others referred to as the Seceeders. The

960
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: Seceeders are basically they're like the barfighters. They break off

961
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: and they're like marauders, kind of roaming the island, pillaging,

962
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: and everyone's afraid of them. And the leader of that

963
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: group had allegedly respective murdering at least two people and

964
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 2: stealing what food and rations that person had. So that's

965
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: one group. And then in the main settlement there are

966
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: two main factions. One remains loyal to the Captain David

967
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: Cheap and it's his loyal followers, and Captain Cheap is

968
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: speaking about notions of duty and patriotism and order and

969
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: naval rules of regulations. Another group is increasingly drawn to

970
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: John Bulkley, who was the gunner on the wager, and

971
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: he's interesting guy. He was devout and he was in

972
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: many ways the most skilled seamen on the wager. But

973
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,439
Speaker 2: because he did not come from the aristocracy in those days,

974
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 2: he knew he was never going to become a commander

975
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: of a warship. Yet suddenly, in these circumstances, you know

976
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: what I describe as almost this democracy of suffering, he

977
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 2: begins to emerge as a commander in his own right

978
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: and more. And where he's very self sufficient, he's he

979
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: knows how to survive and so and many of the

980
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 2: people gravitate to them. And he would stir the people.

981
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: This is before the American Revolution, but he would stir

982
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: his followers with the phrase life and liberty. So these

983
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,959
Speaker 2: are the factions. I mean, it's amazing. At the camp,

984
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: they're separated by about you know, they don't describe it exactly,

985
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: but it's probably like fifty one hundred feet or maybe more,

986
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: maybe two hundred feet, and yet they have to send

987
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: it some points. They have to send emissaries back and

988
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: forth to communicate negotiation. Yeah, it's to negotiating because they

989
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: won't speak to each I mean, it's like it's their

990
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 2: becoming warning campments.

991
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: The you touched on this, but I think it warrants

992
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: a little revisit. Uh. While this is going on, you know,

993
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: people argue about whether capital punishment is a deterrent or not.

994
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: In those days, it's like they're thinking about how do

995
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: I like everybody's dying, and it gets down to where

996
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: it gets down to whatever number than one hundred and forty,

997
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: and then it gets down to like a very very

998
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: small handful of people, but a lot of their actions

999
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: are governed by whatever I do to get out of this.

1000
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: Can't be such that I get hung. Yeah, that's great,

1001
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: And they like they've they've like these people in their career,

1002
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: they have seen people hung from the mast. Yeah, and

1003
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: it's like you're not like, hey, no, when I get home,

1004
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't care what no punishment be bad?

1005
00:54:59,680 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 2: Is this?

1006
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,439
Speaker 1: You're calculating it, Like, at at a point, I got

1007
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: to start thinking about how I'm going to explain this

1008
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: because they're going to hang me.

1009
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 2: Yes they are.

1010
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: And if I survive, it's almost like that almost makes

1011
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: me guilty.

1012
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are so conscious. It's so interesting. You know,

1013
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: they're thousands of miles away from from from England and

1014
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 2: yet there's this eye of the Admiralty always kind of

1015
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 2: peering down upon them, like the eye of God, and

1016
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 2: they're deeply conscious of it. And so yes, they are

1017
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 2: so conscious of having to justify their actions. And they

1018
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 2: was amazing they were able to salvage paper and ink,

1019
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, the writing with a quill and with ink

1020
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: and a container, and they're you know, and they're creating

1021
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 2: documents and contemporaneous evidence so that they can present if

1022
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 2: they get back to England, you know, present this. They

1023
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 2: are basically trying to create an unassailable story that could

1024
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 2: withstand the attrition of public scrutiny. And at Marshall, yeah.

1025
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: Like regardless of what Bob might.

1026
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: Say, and we didn't talk about it, but at a

1027
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: certain point during this where they have to abandon some

1028
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 2: people and they would literally they would have them sign

1029
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 2: a document basically saying this indemnifies I mean they used

1030
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: the word indefy.

1031
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: It's dudes on the beach, yeah, yeah, one.

1032
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, just could you sign this so that when I

1033
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: get back to England, I've been indemnified. So they are

1034
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 2: very they are, they are very conscious that. But you

1035
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: know what is interesting is when they're even in that

1036
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: state of starvation and descending into murderous anarchy. They do

1037
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: hold these like really interesting philosophical debates, you know, about

1038
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: the nature of leadership and duty and patriotism and loyalty.

1039
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 5: It's almost a weird sense of optimism that they think that, oh, well,

1040
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 5: we're in hell, but obviously we're going to make it

1041
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 5: back to England, sometimes not too long.

1042
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: That's why I feel like I would get to a

1043
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: point where, you know, I would quickly get to a

1044
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: point where that just whatever was going to happen back

1045
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: there was like completely beside the point, like it just

1046
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 1: wasn't you were never gonna come up. Yeah, you would think, Uh,

1047
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: there's a When I say this, I don't mean to

1048
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: detract from the story, but uh, I've I've long been

1049
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: a fan of shipwreck stories, typically in the Arctic, so

1050
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: the other bad area. There's a part I like, and

1051
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: it's and it's it comes up so much in these

1052
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: maritime disasters is the indigenous people show up and here

1053
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 1: you have all these trained here, you have all these

1054
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: trained men equipped from the like the the most powerful

1055
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: imperial force on the planet. They have hierarchy, right, career warriors,

1056
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: and and they're just dying every imaginable way. But then

1057
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: here lo and behold, one day comes a family in

1058
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: a boat. Yeah, who's just fine with with all homemade

1059
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: material everything they're wearing their boat, everything is made from

1060
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: the same pool of resources. They've been there thousands of years.

1061
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: They have children with them, and they come and be

1062
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: like what has come over these people? And they often

1063
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: have like there's often this sense on them being like,

1064
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't know that I need to get involved with

1065
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: these these people eating each other stuff, like a great

1066
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: reticence to engage, but also sort of a moral like

1067
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of a you you get into it,

1068
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: you send it, like a little bit of a Now

1069
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: that I found these people, like, I probably try to

1070
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: do something for them, but I don't trust them. You know.

1071
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 2: The people that initially merge out of the mist, you know,

1072
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: while they're starving and fighting, are a group known as

1073
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: the Karrasquar and the Kearra Squar. As you said, they

1074
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 2: had lived in that region for ages. They had adapted

1075
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: to that region over time. They lived almost exclusively off

1076
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 2: marine resources, and they spent much of their time in canoes.

1077
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: They usually traveled in small kind of familiar groups. They

1078
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: had learned where to find the food because it was

1079
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: hard to find food. But they knew all the places

1080
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: along the coastline.

1081
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: Would hunt sea lions.

1082
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they knew how to hunt sea lions, where to

1083
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: find sea urgeons. The women would dive down in the

1084
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 2: cold water and be able to withstand it and get

1085
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 2: these se urgeons and bring them up.

1086
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: And because the detail you talked about two that I

1087
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,959
Speaker 1: really liked is that they in their canoes they would

1088
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: keep a fire kindled. The fire was like such a

1089
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: great little like it's like a great image and something

1090
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of before, but they like they have

1091
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 1: a campfire going in a canoe.

1092
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: They learned how to stay warm. I mean they they

1093
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: were no is the nomads of the sea, or they

1094
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: sometimes called that. And they had adapted so well to

1095
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 2: the environment that Nassau, when they were considering putting humans

1096
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 2: in space, actually study the care square. They went to

1097
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 2: try to figure out how had they adapted to their

1098
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: environment this kind of seemingly inhospitable place that they had

1099
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 2: seemed to be fine it.

1100
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: And they coat their bodies with oil.

1101
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would, Yep, they could take a blubber, you know,

1102
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: from even from a seal and that would help them

1103
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: stay warm. So you know, all these little things just

1104
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: to basically stay alive and live and have you know,

1105
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 2: a society. And and so they come and you know,

1106
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: they're actually they go out and they actually are like,

1107
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: oh my god, these kind of these hairy castaways, and

1108
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: they're all starving. So they're actually they go out and

1109
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: they go bring them back food. They go out and

1110
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 2: they get them food, they bring them back.

1111
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: But there in their memorialized by as these crazy savages.

1112
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, in their journal as they describe them as.

1113
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 2: And some of and some of the castaways mistreat them

1114
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: and you know, they think their civilization must be superior

1115
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 2: and think and we don't get to see it because

1116
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: we don't have a recording from the Carroscuar's point of view,

1117
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: but we can see it from the at least in

1118
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 2: the journals of the castways. And John Byron describes as

1119
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: very well on his account, you know, he's so Saturday,

1120
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 2: at a certain point, the caris guard basically they are

1121
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: looking at them and watching the spiral into islands and

1122
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 2: being mistreated and they're just like, you know what, we're

1123
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 2: out of here. And they disappear and and that's and

1124
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 2: and then the castaways only just send further into their

1125
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 2: spiral of violence at Hobsey and State, and some of

1126
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: them are succumbing to cannibalism at that point.

1127
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: How many people, uh, and this is by no means synonymous,

1128
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: would survive? How many people get off the island.

1129
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 2: So there are a couple different attempts to flee the island,

1130
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 2: and in one group there are about eighty or so

1131
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 2: try to go pack together in a little castaway boat.

1132
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 2: So you have to imagine you have survived going around

1133
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: Cape Horn, you survived scurvy, you survived the shipwreck, you

1134
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: survived the violence on the island, you survived intense, excruciating starvation,

1135
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 2: and now you're going to get in a little castaway boat.

1136
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: They're packed so tightly together they can't stand. And they're

1137
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 2: at least for this castaway boat. They're hoping to travel

1138
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 2: three thousand miles three thousand miles all the way from

1139
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: the coast of Chile down south through the Straight of Magellan,

1140
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: which is really rough to has lots of squalls, and

1141
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 2: then up the coast to Brazil. And that group about

1142
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 2: thirty make it, and they're just basically almost wasted to

1143
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: the bone, but they do make it, and most of

1144
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 2: them then return to England. And then they're about another

1145
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 2: little castaway.

1146
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: Well, return to England, but considerable delay.

1147
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, with considerable delay. Yes, yes, so in that group,

1148
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 2: with considerable lay. And then there's another little group that

1149
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 2: eventually another little boat that eventually, well, let me just

1150
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 2: step back for one second. This little boat washes off

1151
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: the coast of Brazil and on board of these thirty men,

1152
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 2: almost wasted to the bone, and they announce that they

1153
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 2: are the survivors of His Majesty Shift the wager, And

1154
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 2: at first nobody can believe it how far they've gone.

1155
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 2: And they're initially greeted, you know, his heroes, and celebrated

1156
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 2: for their ingenuity. But then several months later, another little

1157
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: castaway boat will wash ashore, this time on the other

1158
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 2: side of South America, on the Chilean side. This one

1159
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: is just like a dugout. It has a seal which

1160
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 2: is stitched together from blankets. On board are just three men,

1161
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 2: including the captain David Cheep, who is so delirious he

1162
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: can't even recollect his name. But after they begin to recover,

1163
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 2: they then tell a very different story than those people

1164
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: who have gone to prision and they say those people

1165
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: aren't actually heroes, they were mutineers. And it takes a

1166
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: long time because there's lots of mishats, people end up

1167
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 2: in prison all these things, but eventually they do could

1168
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 2: make it back to England.

1169
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: There's a two you're right. I mean, there's so much

1170
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: we're missing out on, skipping over so much, but there's

1171
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: two little stunning things about the escape. Is that there's

1172
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: a he's not a slave on the there's a former

1173
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: slave on the wager or was he a slave on

1174
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: the wager?

1175
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 2: No, he was a free black seaman on the wager.

1176
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 2: He was from London. He was a freeman, so I

1177
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: hadn't been born into slavery to the best. We don't know,

1178
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: to be honest, we don't know because we don't know

1179
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 2: that about his past, but we know he was a

1180
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 2: free black seaman when he was on the wager.

1181
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy lives through all of this and then

1182
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: just gets kidnapped by people that could find a black

1183
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: man kidnap him and it's almost a slave. Yeah, it's like,

1184
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, like what.

1185
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 2: A I know, it's just terrific. And he you know,

1186
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 2: he is somebody who had survived all those things we've described,

1187
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 2: and he survived that castaway voyage. And then yeah, and

1188
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: and and one of this. You know, the themes of

1189
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 2: the book Stories Survive on Venture may all these kind

1190
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 2: of different theme society, leadership, but it's also about the

1191
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: way we tell stories and the way we shape our stories,

1192
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 2: but also some of the stories we can't tell. And

1193
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 2: as a historian who's trying to research these stories and

1194
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 2: tell them, you know, this free black seaman, his name

1195
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 2: was John Duck. He's one of the stories I couldn't

1196
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 2: tell because we don't know what happened, and we don't

1197
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 2: know there's no record of his face.

1198
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1199
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's he's somebody whose story isn't shared. You know,

1200
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: he can't be told other than the fact that that's

1201
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: what we that's what we know.

1202
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: The real fighting begins when everybody gets home. Yes, it's

1203
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: like when my reminds me of you know, my kids

1204
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: come in the house and they're both crying. You're like,

1205
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: what happened? One of them is like hey, she like

1206
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: it becomes a but in this case, it becomes like

1207
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: a national inquirers sort of public fixation.

1208
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a scandal. I mean, it becomes a

1209
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 2: scandalous story, you know, because.

1210
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 5: Sorry, real quick, how many years have gone by since

1211
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 5: they left and then everybody's back and start fighting.

1212
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 2: It's a really good question. So some will make up

1213
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 2: back to you know, England in about three years, but

1214
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 2: some of them, and like John Byron and the Captain

1215
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: David Cheap, it's six years before they get back to England.

1216
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,919
Speaker 2: John Byron left England when he was six sixteen years old.

1217
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 2: He returns to England he is twenty two. He goes

1218
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 2: to First of all, he can't find where his family

1219
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 2: lives anymore. He's like looking from where he's trying to

1220
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 2: find his sister. He finally finds his Sister's sister doesn't

1221
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 2: recognize him and had presumed he was dead, and there

1222
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: he is dressed as a pauper, and she realizes that

1223
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 2: this is her long lost brother come back to life.

1224
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 2: So he's six years and then they are summoned to

1225
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: face a court martial for their alleged crimes on the island,

1226
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 2: and so this generates the scanon so here these people

1227
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: had waged his furious war against the elements all these years,

1228
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 2: and now they get back to England, and they begin

1229
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,200
Speaker 2: to wage this furious war over the truth, you know,

1230
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 2: with each offering their version of story, and they're so

1231
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 2: afraid to be hanged, so they they begin to publish

1232
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 2: their accounts. And there are these people known as grub

1233
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: Street hacks, which is like the early kind of professional

1234
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: scribblers in the media, from grouvestry to a generating you

1235
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 2: know who sees on this story. It's a big thing.

1236
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 2: You know, this is the National inquir getting hold of this,

1237
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 2: and and they're all releasing their testimony and giving their

1238
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 2: testing and so there's this kind of warring story and

1239
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 2: they're each trying to emerge as the hero of their

1240
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 2: own story to kind of live what they have done

1241
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 2: or they haven't done, but also quite literally, to save

1242
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,680
Speaker 2: their lives. There's a great line by Joan Diddy and

1243
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: the writer who said, you know, we all tell ourselves

1244
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: stories in order to live. And yet in this case

1245
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 2: it's quite literal. They have to tell their stories.

1246
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff

1247
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten into today. I mean, on this island,

1248
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: on the ships, there's there's shootouts or there's gunplay, there's

1249
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 1: can't there's a lot to hash out back home, who

1250
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: did what? And what was whose idea and who last

1251
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: saw who? And and uh, and it was just it's

1252
01:08:55,960 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: so reminiscent of so reminiscent of way that you might

1253
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: play a public sentiment campaign.

1254
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 2: Today, Yes, very much so. And there are I mean

1255
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:13,520
Speaker 2: it's crazy because you know there are you know, there's disinformation,

1256
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 2: there's misinformation, their allegations of quote unquote fake journals, and

1257
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,759
Speaker 2: some people like sometimes they would have takes an authentic

1258
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 2: journal and then someone would rewrite it and kind of

1259
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 2: skew it so that the actually the person who wrote

1260
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 2: it will then look bad. I mean, the original author

1261
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: will look bad. These kind of fake journals are kind

1262
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 2: of proliferating them being published, and like you know, people

1263
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 2: are like figuring out like what is the truth? How

1264
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 2: to and and your version of the truth will kind

1265
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 2: of depend on what you read. And so yeah, it

1266
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 2: is and there are these like the are these campaigns.

1267
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:50,560
Speaker 1: Without without getting into the the trial and and and

1268
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: where guilt wise and all that, what, uh explain who

1269
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: the sort of primary factions are the people that want

1270
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: to spin narratives. They're they're divided in a way.

1271
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are really two principal groups. There's there's Captain

1272
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 2: Cheap who is determined to have what he calls my

1273
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: mutineers hanged and he is burning for vengeance. And then

1274
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 2: there is the side of John Bulkeley and those who

1275
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 2: had uh abandoned their captain on the island, who believe

1276
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 2: they were justified in their actions and are spinning their

1277
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 2: own uh version of the truth. And of course they're

1278
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 2: leveling one of the more you know, they're leveling charges

1279
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 2: of homicide against the other side, so you know, they

1280
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 2: had good reason to fear they were going to get hanged.

1281
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 2: And you know, John Buckley and his group are praying

1282
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 2: before they go into the court martial.

1283
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 1: You know. One of the craziest things the like structurally,

1284
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 1: it's it's such a gray element of the story is

1285
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: you know, we start with these two thousand people and

1286
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: all these ships, and then this becomes uh, it gets

1287
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,600
Speaker 1: whittled down so it's a known boat and then it

1288
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 1: gets whittled down. So it's like this known handful of

1289
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: you know, co conspirators against this other handful, and you

1290
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 1: kinda forget, like at least I did as a reader.

1291
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,679
Speaker 1: You forget that what all these other people are doing

1292
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe. Towards the end of the book,

1293
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 1: it was like they I mean they find the gold,

1294
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 1: they find the gold bearing vessel.

1295
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 2: Yes, they get it's like it.

1296
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, sh I forgot about all that.

1297
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that weird. That's that thing like that. You know,

1298
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 2: you're saying like this sounds like an up movie. That

1299
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't be true. And that's the part that I could

1300
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 2: see them going out after it. But then after everything

1301
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 2: they've been through this squadron, there is one ship that survived,

1302
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 2: only one ship of the squadron.

1303
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: Like not even fully male, Like holy shit, it's the

1304
01:11:59,160 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: Spanish GID.

1305
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,680
Speaker 2: And they actually get the Spanish guy in and then

1306
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 2: come back to England and they have these wheelbarrows with

1307
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 2: the treasure being brought through the through the streets. It's

1308
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 2: just it's kind of it's almost hard to believe it is.

1309
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: It was so that what as you explain it and

1310
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: how it occurs, it's so ridiculously tidy that again you

1311
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 1: feel like you're watching a pirate movie. Yeah, it's like

1312
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 1: how ridiculously tidy it is.

1313
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then the other crazy thing is just that

1314
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 2: you know there are this is a battle over stories.

1315
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 2: So the book is really narrated between the primarily with

1316
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 2: the perspective of three people are always fighting in their

1317
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 2: own accounts, so John Byron, the Captain, Davy Cheap, and

1318
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 2: John Bulkeley. So you get to see how each of

1319
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 2: them are shaping their stories along the way. And it's

1320
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 2: interesting is they never outright lie. They're not they're not

1321
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 2: they but they tell stories the way we often have

1322
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 2: a tendency to do, which is like kind of leave

1323
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 2: out certain parts that they might not lie, and they

1324
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 2: kind of emphasize other parts they may like. The most

1325
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 2: vivid example of this is one of them would say

1326
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 2: in his account on the island, I was forced to

1327
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 2: proceed to extremities. That's like, so we got to like

1328
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 2: world War two, right, I was forced to proceed to extremity.

1329
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 2: That's what he writes to amiralty do in his account.

1330
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: And then John Byer and the boy on the island,

1331
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: he says, oh no, yeah, he shot him right in

1332
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 2: the head and the guy bled out in my arms.

1333
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 2: And so you get to see how they're each doing it.

1334
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 2: But then we also get to see how history gets

1335
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 2: written because you know, once this paradic mission succeeds and

1336
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 2: they capture this galleon and they come back. The war

1337
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 2: had gone disastrously, but here is this great victory, and

1338
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 2: so some power like, can we just tell this story?

1339
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 2: Do we have to tell this other story about what

1340
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 2: happened on the island because when we were on the

1341
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 2: island are officers of the empire. They look more like

1342
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:59,759
Speaker 2: brutes than like gentlemen. And so it's also a battle,

1343
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 2: you know, kind of shows how both people tell stories,

1344
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 2: but also how nations tell stories.

1345
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't. You leave a lot of the you

1346
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:11,520
Speaker 1: let a lot of the different competing narratives play out.

1347
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: I was laughing that. There's two points I was gonna make.

1348
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: One was when you were saying, what did the guy.

1349
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 2: Use force to proceed to extremities?

1350
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: You probably know the writer Ian Frasier.

1351
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1352
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 1: He was talking about when he's doing an interview with

1353
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: someone and the minute they say and then I proceeded

1354
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 1: to his his internal like radar like me like he's like, okay,

1355
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 1: now we're entering into like a like something that may

1356
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 1: or made a with you. And then I proceeded to Uh.

1357
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: The other point is one of my favorite books of

1358
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: all time, it's called the Sun of the Morning Star,

1359
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:52,440
Speaker 1: and it gets in it's about the events that played out,

1360
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 1: and it's about the events that played out around the

1361
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: Battle of a Little Big Horn when when Custer was killed. Ah.

1362
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: And he does a similar thing with what people put

1363
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: in what they leave out. And there's this great anecdote

1364
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: early in the book where there's a physician who just

1365
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 1: keeps meticulous notes of what he saw that day. This

1366
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: is this is the people that fought that the first

1367
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:19,559
Speaker 1: soldiers that come across the battlefield, and what he saw

1368
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 1: and who did what, what did what not? In his

1369
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:28,720
Speaker 1: journal is an observation by another person about something the

1370
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 1: physician did, which he went into a teepee and tried

1371
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: to remove the moccasin of a warrior who had been

1372
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: killed days before. It was very hot, and the warrior's

1373
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 1: skin slipped and he was trying to so he's trying

1374
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:48,759
Speaker 1: to loot a body, and then he gets physically ill.

1375
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,840
Speaker 1: And the writer points out that did not make the

1376
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: journal of the physician, who is otherwise quite meticulous.

1377
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you could see that here. I mean, you

1378
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 2: get to see it as each one and you get

1379
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 2: a sense of human character from each one. What we

1380
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 2: leave out what we leave in, And yeah, it's a

1381
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 2: very very same, very nature in this case as well.

1382
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: Uh, did you you've had great success in finding uh

1383
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: stories that are gonna make great movies? Do you? At first?

1384
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: It was probably a surprise? Maybe was it a surprise

1385
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:33,679
Speaker 1: at first?

1386
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. If anyone ever thinks of things

1387
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 2: is gonna be a movie? I would tell you a delusion.

1388
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 2: Even now they've made some much Even now, if I

1389
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 2: think so there's gonna be a movie, I think I'm diluted.

1390
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 1: So that's what I was gonna ask, is has as

1391
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 1: you work now?

1392
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 2: Uh?

1393
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 1: Are you are you in writing a script too? In

1394
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:53,640
Speaker 1: the back of your head? Are you are you like

1395
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 1: making a story that will work as a script or

1396
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 1: have you not allowed that to come in?

1397
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 2: You know, I try never to let that come in,

1398
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 2: And in part because I never actually i've never tried

1399
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:08,520
Speaker 2: a screenplay. And also I'm really just I'm seized by curiosity.

1400
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 2: And so, for example, how did I come across the wager?

1401
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm kind of interested in mutinies, you know,

1402
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 2: that's kind of an interesting form of rebellion. And then

1403
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 2: I came upon an eight. It was actually online. It

1404
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:23,600
Speaker 2: was a digital copy, but it was you know, it

1405
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,599
Speaker 2: was in its old English of John Byron's account and

1406
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 2: the Midshipman on the Wager. And I start reading this

1407
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 2: thing and like, I don't think you know, nobody looking

1408
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: at the thing that think would be a movie. It's

1409
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,680
Speaker 2: written in this stilted prose. You know, the s's are

1410
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 2: printed as f's, and it's kind of tangled in that

1411
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 2: eighteenth century language. And I'm just kind of reading. But

1412
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 2: then I just like there's these little descriptions that just

1413
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 2: like get their hooks into me. It's like describes like

1414
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 2: Cape Horn is the perfect hurricane, used that phrase, and

1415
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 2: then he's like he's describing the madness and the scurvy.

1416
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:57,200
Speaker 2: And then he describes the cannibalism, which he refers to

1417
01:17:57,240 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 2: simply it doesn't like to call it cannibals, and versus

1418
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 2: that last extremity, which ways, yes, yes, uh we ate

1419
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 2: the last yeah exactly.

1420
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 1: So uh.

1421
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 2: And so you know, I don't know, I know, you'd

1422
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:15,519
Speaker 2: have to be nuts if you would look at that

1423
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 2: journal and be like, no, I just like, this is crazy,

1424
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,680
Speaker 2: this is so interesting. And then you know, I go

1425
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 2: to these archives and you know, you start going in

1426
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 2: these boxes and you can pull out these primary materials

1427
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 2: that went around the world, and so you know, you

1428
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: you know, I can read the log books from these

1429
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:32,799
Speaker 2: ships and diaries and you know, you go to England

1430
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 2: and you pull them out of these boxes like you

1431
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 2: and heal a cloud of dust.

1432
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: I thought that you had to you have to place

1433
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 1: it on a pillow.

1434
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to place it on a pillow, or

1435
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 2: you know, the binding is disintegrating. You have to, you know,

1436
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 2: you have like watchers because you don't want to do anything.

1437
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 2: You're like, you're terrified, like you'll be the last to

1438
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 2: damn it. You don't want to damage these these these

1439
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 2: these you know, last records and so you know, but

1440
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:55,200
Speaker 2: you know you can read these things. You got to

1441
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 2: use some I used the magnifying glass. I would spend

1442
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 2: years studying these documents. Never in my right mind when

1443
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 2: I think somebody's gonna come along and want to make

1444
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:06,719
Speaker 2: a movie out of this stuff, you gotta be nuts.

1445
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:09,440
Speaker 2: But I do think there is something in the stories.

1446
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 2: I suppose like that do grip me that I think,

1447
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, if you get the right story, I think

1448
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 2: the themes kind of resonate and they can be told

1449
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 2: in different mediums, and the only thing I try to do,

1450
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,639
Speaker 2: the only thing I really think about because my process

1451
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,480
Speaker 2: is so different. You know, I'm just working with documents

1452
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 2: or interviews and words, and I'm just so I'm just

1453
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 2: trying to create visual images through words, and so I

1454
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 2: hopefully it has a cinemaonic quality, but it's very different

1455
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 2: than cinema. I always find it so strange when they

1456
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 2: make a movie of one of my books and I'll

1457
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 2: go to the set for a few days, so my

1458
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 2: kids will think I'm cool, and I'll go to the

1459
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 2: set and and you know, you suddenly see a recreation

1460
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 2: of things that you just had in your imagination based

1461
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 2: on words. You suddenly see these people who you've written

1462
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 2: about and known through you know, years of research and

1463
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 2: records are something walking towards you. Yeah, You're just like,

1464
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 2: and then they're like smiling or winking or or and

1465
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 2: you're just like, and they're suddenly, you know, deeping into

1466
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 2: a conscious level of these people. So it's to me,

1467
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 2: it's just totally surreal. So no, I never think about it,

1468
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:22,439
Speaker 2: you know, I try not to think about it.

1469
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 5: Do you actually write the script when this process happens.

1470
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 2: No, Now, I help in the sense of just as

1471
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 2: a as a as a resource. Sure, just want to

1472
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 2: help help out. And especially because they're so historical documents,

1473
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 2: answer questions, point them in directions, and help that way.

1474
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 2: So you have a lot of sometimes actors who are

1475
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 2: real kind of method actors will want to call you

1476
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 2: and ask you questions about the part they're playing. So

1477
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 2: and I always find it really interesting, but I consider

1478
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 2: kind of totally separate.

1479
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: If you could have it be, if you had to choose,

1480
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 1: you did the same work, but at the end of

1481
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 1: the work there was a film or was a book. Book.

1482
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 2: I figured, yeah, book for me, I mean my you know,

1483
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 2: my kids won't think I'm cool. I'll go just revert

1484
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 2: back to being, you know, the dorky writer in his

1485
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 2: office with lots of archival materials drowning under them. Uh

1486
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 2: so I would lose that street cred. But you know

1487
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 2: that's always kind of what I've been and uh yeah,

1488
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 2: so I think for me it would be the book.

1489
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,560
Speaker 2: And but but also just because they're very different, you know,

1490
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,920
Speaker 2: they're very different. You know, a film is interpretive and

1491
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 2: I'm really fact based, so I am it's like a

1492
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,960
Speaker 2: different almost a different mindset. Like you know, and I

1493
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 2: sometimes envy actually the filmmakers because you know, I might

1494
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 2: just have one or two letters from that person I'm

1495
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 2: writing about, and yet you know, they can imagine and

1496
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 2: go deeper and I'm stuck, like I got I wish

1497
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 2: I had some more dialogue in that scene.

1498
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: But yeah, they can build background and the actor in

1499
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: his mind has created a family history and this created

1500
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 1: like a psychology, like.

1501
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 2: A Freudian analysis delve in. So yes, sometimes sometimes that

1502
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 2: part of sometimes jealous of, but yes, I've just stick

1503
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 2: to what I've got on that.

1504
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,759
Speaker 4: I just have a question about your character development process

1505
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 4: because you're based on the documents that you have, journal entries,

1506
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 4: et cetera. In order to build them up in your work,

1507
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 4: there is an additive imaginative process that must take place

1508
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 4: in that. So as you're are you are you? Is

1509
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 4: there an element of like projecting onto who these people

1510
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 4: might have been? Or are you letting your interpretation of

1511
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 4: their writing knowing that they, you know, maybe haven't divulged

1512
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 4: everything right? How How are you kind of like dipping

1513
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 4: into the psychology that you think may have been there

1514
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:56,799
Speaker 4: for each character?

1515
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 2: So I think it's less projecting you you have to

1516
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,639
Speaker 2: do some level of interpretive. You don't really so much imagic,

1517
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 2: but you do have to make analytical judgments or or

1518
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 2: or or you know, but you're basing that based on

1519
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 2: what they write, so you know, you can make you know,

1520
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 2: John Bulkeley interesting enough, writes exactly the way his personality is.

1521
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 2: So you're reading his text and he writes and he

1522
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 2: you know, for eight early eighteen cents, you write, first

1523
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 2: of all, he didn't come from the upper crest of

1524
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 2: the fact that he can write so well, was it remarkable?

1525
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 2: But the second thing is he writes in a modern

1526
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 2: direct language. It's like verb object action. And he said,

1527
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:44,120
Speaker 2: that is the way he is. And then you'll yeah,

1528
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 2: and so you don't actually I don't ever, I don't

1529
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 2: know if I even make that observation in the book,

1530
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 2: but you get something like that. You're getting to know

1531
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:55,760
Speaker 2: someone based on the way they write and the way

1532
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 2: they think, and even the way they make jokes and

1533
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 2: so you but my what I really try to do

1534
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 2: is do enough research and find everything I can abound

1535
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 2: the person. I'm always just trying to understand them. So

1536
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 2: even somebody like Captain Cheap, who's a very flawed commander,

1537
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:14,160
Speaker 2: you know I could read, I could learn how he

1538
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 2: was kind of plagued by debts on this at sea

1539
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:19,720
Speaker 2: and I mean at land, and he was kind of

1540
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,879
Speaker 2: an bitter person and at a ship he had always

1541
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 2: that he had always dreamed of becoming a captain, and

1542
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 2: then on this trip he finally got it. And so

1543
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:31,879
Speaker 2: when others are describing his kind of insecurity about losing

1544
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 2: this crown, you can understand it. So but mostly you

1545
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 2: are just trying to show. I really just try to

1546
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 2: show and let you interpret actions and dialogue that they

1547
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 2: spoke or wrote so that you could kind of find

1548
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 2: your judgment. And you do benefit in a case like

1549
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 2: this that you have multiple layers of commentary, so you

1550
01:24:57,240 --> 01:24:59,800
Speaker 2: can have that person's perspective. So it's kind of less,

1551
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 2: but I can have what John Byron is saying about

1552
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:05,680
Speaker 2: this captain, and what John Buckley is saying about the

1553
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:08,599
Speaker 2: what the Admiralty is saying about of what George ants

1554
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 2: and the coven, And so that's how you kind of

1555
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:11,880
Speaker 2: build it out. And then you try to show up,

1556
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: but you are making certain interpretive decisions or things you

1557
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:18,599
Speaker 2: want to highlight about their character, but you don't really

1558
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 2: so much imagine.

1559
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: Uh have you have you started cranking on a new project.

1560
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 2: I need a new one. Any give I need a

1561
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,200
Speaker 2: new one? Yes?

1562
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 1: The way in your head do you have in your head?

1563
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 1: Do you have uh like more than you'll ever get

1564
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:37,960
Speaker 1: to kind of feeling or do you have like you

1565
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: gotta hunt them down.

1566
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 2: You gotta hunt them down, you gotta hunt them down.

1567
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 2: It's interesting when I was primarily just did magazine work,

1568
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 2: I had more than I could tell, Is that right? Yeah? Yeah,

1569
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 2: because I could there was just so many. But for

1570
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 2: a book, you know, these books, they take me, like

1571
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 2: to get to your question, how do you know the character?

1572
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 2: Because it takes me five years?

1573
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 1: Five years? What's the longest you ever went down a

1574
01:25:58,120 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 1: path and then realized wasn't there?

1575
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 2: Always so terrified to that, so I will spend I'll

1576
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 2: do an early early, like just intensive couple months of

1577
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 2: research before I'll ever commit to a book, got it,

1578
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 2: because I'm terrified that two years I'll wake up and

1579
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 2: be like what whoa what about?

1580
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 1: What did I do? And in that phase, you're you're

1581
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,600
Speaker 1: like a summary, You're like you're trying to examine the

1582
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: whole what's known, what might be found out exactly?

1583
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 2: And you need to hear. You're clearly you're going to

1584
01:26:26,040 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 2: find out so much more on the path, but you

1585
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 2: need to know, for example, for the wager, before I

1586
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 2: committed to the wager, well, what's in the archives? You know,

1587
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 2: I have John Byron's account or these other are these

1588
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 2: other accounts? And then I found the other accounts. I

1589
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:39,680
Speaker 2: read some of these other kinds like oh, okay, this

1590
01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 2: is interesting, and then I thought, oh wow, that's a

1591
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 2: really interesting theme about this war over the truth, which

1592
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:45,639
Speaker 2: is something kind of we having in our own society.

1593
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:47,639
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, that's an interesting theme to be able

1594
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 2: to play with. So you're starting to say okay, okay, okay,

1595
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,080
Speaker 2: so you get there, but yes I am, but you

1596
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 2: want to be kind of ruthless. I knew no writers,

1597
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:56,160
Speaker 2: and I probably did when I was younger, make a

1598
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 2: mistake where you're just kind of holding on to like

1599
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:00,080
Speaker 2: a dog or a lemon. I don't know what the

1600
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 2: right phrases for a bad story. You know, you know

1601
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 2: you're because at a certain level, if you if you

1602
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:07,600
Speaker 2: don't have the right story, there's only so much you

1603
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 2: could do.

1604
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: Do you do you like to as my last one

1605
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,599
Speaker 1: for you on my last craft question, and will wrap up.

1606
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:17,200
Speaker 1: But do you like to at the end of that

1607
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 1: couple of months or when you do your do your

1608
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:23,439
Speaker 1: like feasibility study, do you need to get to a

1609
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:28,840
Speaker 1: point where you're like thinking to yourself, I will add,

1610
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 1: I will my research will add to the story. I mean,

1611
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: I will find out things and deliver things to the

1612
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 1: reader that has not been discussed by another writer.

1613
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:44,639
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you want to feel like whatever you're

1614
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:49,160
Speaker 2: doing has not been done the way you are hoping

1615
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,640
Speaker 2: to do. It doesn't mean yours will be better, but

1616
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 2: that your vision, your approach, the research you may find

1617
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:59,760
Speaker 2: is gonna be a contribution in some ways. It you know,

1618
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 2: not a regurgitation, not just a regurgitation. I mean, so

1619
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 2: I think that is what's important that you feel like

1620
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 2: whatever it is you know, there can be people have

1621
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,759
Speaker 2: written about a subject, but for whatever it is, your approach,

1622
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 2: the things you're thinking about, that you're going to bring

1623
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 2: something new, and then inevitably you do fine stuff you

1624
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:22,200
Speaker 2: just you do and in some cases you're just like

1625
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:24,519
Speaker 2: you just you just never know. I mean, when I

1626
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 2: did The Last City of Zea, I remember trying. There's

1627
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 2: about a British explorer disappeared in the Amazon in the

1628
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:32,240
Speaker 2: early twentieth century, and I went to his granddaughter's house.

1629
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 2: She lived in Wales, and I remember chatting with her

1630
01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 2: and she said, well, do you really want to know

1631
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 2: what happened to my grandfather? And I said, well, yeah, sure,

1632
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:41,920
Speaker 2: you know, if that's possible. And she then led me

1633
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:44,720
Speaker 2: into this back room and there was a chest, like

1634
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:46,760
Speaker 2: could you not you talk about like weird like things

1635
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:48,560
Speaker 2: that you're like, I can't believe that there was a

1636
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:50,160
Speaker 2: chest I think it was. It was on the floor

1637
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 2: and she opened it up and inside were all these

1638
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:54,679
Speaker 2: old books and they were kind of somewhere like held

1639
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 2: together by ropes or a little locks or water stained

1640
01:28:58,000 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 2: and grinding me. I said, what are those? She said, well,

1641
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 2: those are my father's log books and diaries. And she'd

1642
01:29:03,200 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 2: let me look at them and gave me access to them.

1643
01:29:05,040 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 2: So sometimes you just never know. So these things are

1644
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 2: The research is its own odyssey, it is its own

1645
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,559
Speaker 2: little quest, and I think the most important thing to

1646
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 2: get to the craft question is I think the most

1647
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:18,120
Speaker 2: important thing for me though, is not whether it's going

1648
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:23,040
Speaker 2: to be something you know, just more than the feasibility

1649
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 2: and more you're gonna be doing, just like are you

1650
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 2: obsessed with it, because if you're not obsessed, you gotta

1651
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 2: you've got to be able to walk away. And then

1652
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 2: a couple of days later, shoot, I'm thinking about that again.

1653
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,479
Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I can't you know, I want to know.

1654
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,680
Speaker 2: I got these questions. And then you know, then you're

1655
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 2: boarding a boat and going to Wager Island like you

1656
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:44,760
Speaker 2: just need that, you need that because otherwise you're not

1657
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:47,599
Speaker 2: going to do something, you know, hopefully good.

1658
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:55,879
Speaker 1: No, uh, fantastic book. The Wager, A Tale of shipwreck, mutiny,

1659
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 1: and murder.

1660
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:00,960
Speaker 2: All three, you got them all and they all We

1661
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:03,040
Speaker 2: didn't even get to the mutiny.

1662
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:08,120
Speaker 1: Again. David Grant The Wager, A Tale of shipwrecked, mutiny

1663
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:12,679
Speaker 1: and Murder, author of The Lost City of z Killers

1664
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 1: of the Flower Moon. Good luck, man, I have no

1665
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:20,680
Speaker 1: doubt that you're gonna you're you're gonna have another You're

1666
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: gonna have another success with this one, or are having

1667
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: another success to this one. So congratulations and thanks for

1668
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 1: coming and joining us.

1669
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:28,280
Speaker 2: That's my pleasure. Thank you so much for shaw.

1670
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:50,799
Speaker 3: Ride on Seal Gray shine like silver in the sun, right.

1671
01:30:53,160 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 1: Right on alone, sweet with done this damn horse to death.

1672
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:09,679
Speaker 2: So taking a new one and ride away. We're done

1673
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:13,160
Speaker 2: beat this damn horse today, MH.

1674
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 1: So take a new one and ride on.