Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart radio podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't even know, Okay, okay, Army Hammer. HM. There's
Speaker 1: a thing called the House of Hammer out right now.
Speaker 1: We have Casey Hammer, who is the aunt of Army Hammer,
Speaker 1: who did the show, wrote the book. We're going to
Speaker 1: have her on and I have I know, Kristen Catherine
Speaker 1: have also we've dived into the House of Hammer uh series,
Speaker 1: and it is It's wild. I mean, I texted you
Speaker 1: at when I am and I was like, you did
Speaker 1: this to me, Kramer, because this isn't something I gravitate towards.
Speaker 1: Can I just tell you though a story about Army Hammer, please?
Speaker 1: I hope this goes where I've prayed it goes. Speaking
Speaker 1: of answered, first, let's do that, because I was like,
Speaker 1: this guy is a guy we we would swipe on,
Speaker 1: you would swipe on him. We're gonna get to the
Speaker 1: We're gonna get tall of it. But okay, this is juicy.
Speaker 1: Well it's not really, it's not really juicy, but it's
Speaker 1: so Army and I did a movie together, like, I mean, hey,
Speaker 1: back in the day, I mean way back in the day. Actually,
Speaker 1: let me just pull it up right now, because I'm
Speaker 1: gonna am. I honestly saw him and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is an available bachelor, Like I thought, this is
Speaker 1: someone you would think is attractive me. Yeah, America, tell
Speaker 1: me you've done too many movies. Without telling me you've
Speaker 1: done too many movies. No, No, I'm trying. No, Hong,
Speaker 1: It's like, well, let me just go to the movie.
Speaker 1: So it was called spring Breakdown and everyone a movie
Speaker 1: with Amy Poehler. I'm sorry, have we met and Kristin
Speaker 1: Cavalier uh sacer posing here which we had a conversation
Speaker 1: in which we can talk about that in our time,
Speaker 1: you and Kristen. Ok, let's just let's just stay on.
Speaker 1: But it's a very We're going to get a drink. Um. Okay.
Speaker 1: So Armie Hammer was Abercrombie boy in Spring Breakdown. Now
Speaker 1: I had like a real talking part in this. Um
Speaker 1: I didn't. But we're here, we're gonna break it down.
Speaker 1: This is this is just and I'm like, literally, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm laughing at myself right now. I was seven, number two.
Speaker 1: I didn't even have a name either. So but we
Speaker 1: were like, but you talked and he was on a
Speaker 1: bag or what I'm and so all I remember is
Speaker 1: this but we we still had like it was like
Speaker 1: so like Kristen was Kristen was seven number three. I
Speaker 1: was seven number two, and then um Sophie Monk was
Speaker 1: like we were her like little groupies. So like I
Speaker 1: would be like like one of my life just like
Speaker 1: I can't even read, like you know, Like it was
Speaker 1: just like I was one of those girls and the
Speaker 1: award goes to ye. So but like Army was on
Speaker 1: the show and he like, yeah, there, I am right
Speaker 1: there and there wow. So Army like tried to hit
Speaker 1: on me, and I was like in my mind, I
Speaker 1: was like he's, you know, like ever cramby boy and
Speaker 1: he's ever crampy boy like you know, and I was
Speaker 1: just like not there with it. So then my friend
Speaker 1: Caitlin Crosby was like this is like a couple of
Speaker 1: years later, she's like Army. It was just like she's
Speaker 1: the most beautiful woman I ever saw, Like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I had the biggest crush on her, Like I tried
Speaker 1: to ask her out and so I was like, well
Speaker 1: like oh no, oh no no, because honestly, as I
Speaker 1: was watching it, I was thinking, and I'm not joking
Speaker 1: a I was like this is someone you would be
Speaker 1: attracted to and A. And then also I thought he
Speaker 1: would be so attracted to you because the women on here,
Speaker 1: I mean, the women he's attracted to our stunning. Well
Speaker 1: you're very sweet. But I was like, grammar would fit
Speaker 1: in this quite well. Well, so I was like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like like, okay, hook it up right. Well he
Speaker 1: had just started dating his wife or whatever, so I
Speaker 1: was just like, Okay, he's dating someone. But I was
Speaker 1: always like, damn it, the one that got away. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let me you're the one that got away. But
Speaker 1: here's where I want to break it down. Okay, so
Speaker 1: and I will say too. So I watched the documentary
Speaker 1: and I actually ended up speaking. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: name her name. She was one of the girls on
Speaker 1: the documentary, and I reached out to her. I d
Speaker 1: m her and I said to her because there was
Speaker 1: I know that she's gotten some hate and because he
Speaker 1: was technically married at the time, But I'm like, what
Speaker 1: these men tell these women that they pray on. Like again,
Speaker 1: I am remember calling one of the multiple affair girls
Speaker 1: and they're like, wait, your husband was married, and I'm
Speaker 1: like yeah, and I've got a kid so like these
Speaker 1: girls don't know Like when she's like he called me
Speaker 1: in the thing, She's like he called me all the time.
Speaker 1: He was texting all the time. Like it's like and
Speaker 1: I want you to know that, Like I get it.
Speaker 1: And like also like I understand like the being like
Speaker 1: prayed and like the you know, he's army hammer and
Speaker 1: you're like wanting to be you know, this is like
Speaker 1: wild and you're in this world and like you're you're
Speaker 1: like I could tell that her testimony was very authentic,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to like for as many probably
Speaker 1: hateful things as she was, Like I wanted to just
Speaker 1: be like someone that's just like hey, I I like
Speaker 1: I saw you, I heard you, and like you know,
Speaker 1: get off the blocks, you know what I mean, don't read,
Speaker 1: don't read. But like the like he wanted to cook
Speaker 1: these one girl's ribs, Like he wanted to take out
Speaker 1: these girls ribs and cook them. Like it goes me
Speaker 1: on like fantasy stuff, right, like it goes like past
Speaker 1: like this, I don't even know the BDS, Like I
Speaker 1: was b it's b D S M sex. But like
Speaker 1: what that girl was even saying, you know, they had
Speaker 1: like the psychiatrist on there like, yeah, that that goes
Speaker 1: like even beyond like what this is, Like they had
Speaker 1: an expert come on, and she was like that's a
Speaker 1: consensual thing, Like that's something both people are agreeing to.
Speaker 1: She was like, this is a person abusing essentially under
Speaker 1: this like disguise of it being B D S M right.
Speaker 1: And I had this I'm not going to obviously name
Speaker 1: his name, but when I was I had this guy
Speaker 1: that I dated that was like way older than me
Speaker 1: and I was younger. And it's scary when you know,
Speaker 1: when when the younger girls and the older guys, because
Speaker 1: a lot of these girls were super young. Like I
Speaker 1: remember this dude that I was with, he was like,
Speaker 1: this is my fantasy in my mind. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want this to be the fantasy, Like I
Speaker 1: don't want to do this, you know what. I want
Speaker 1: to please this person, you know, because he loves me
Speaker 1: and I love them, and like but then I remember
Speaker 1: one day we had showed up at one of his
Speaker 1: fantasies and I was like, oh my god, like this
Speaker 1: isn't actually what. I just played along with it, thinking
Speaker 1: like it wasn't going to actually happen. You didn't actually
Speaker 1: want to eat my ribs is what I thought, right,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, so I'm at this like I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna go into like told detail, but
Speaker 1: I just started crying and he got so angry with me,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, but I didn't think this was like
Speaker 1: a real and these like girls, it's like I'm like
Speaker 1: watching them, like, oh my god, it's like they're just
Speaker 1: you know, they're again they're playing along with this like
Speaker 1: fantasy and like, yeah, okay, it's kind of like cute
Speaker 1: and kinky whatever, but then he just takes it to
Speaker 1: like this, it was abusive, so abusive, and then also
Speaker 1: like that's which is so scary because I'm like, but
Speaker 1: like that kind of like like that one with that one,
Speaker 1: like I want to eat you and she's like, you know,
Speaker 1: she's like at first it's like okay, that's kind of
Speaker 1: kind of cute, but then not knowing like I I
Speaker 1: want to bite you. It was like I wanna want
Speaker 1: to bite you. I'm gonna and like, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know how kinky people get. But then when you
Speaker 1: keep going, it's like but the slate I mean now nowadays,
Speaker 1: but in my twenties, I would have been like, okay,
Speaker 1: like I don't know. Well, I also just think it's
Speaker 1: such a slow chip away. I think people are very
Speaker 1: easy to judge. Yes, women, but like that. It's not
Speaker 1: like this guy slid into the d m S and
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I want to eat your face off
Speaker 1: or hey I want to take your ribs out, or
Speaker 1: I want to smash you to the ground. Like it's
Speaker 1: a very sneaky slow and listen, you're in it at
Speaker 1: that point. So then when you go thirty thousand feet
Speaker 1: it starts to you start to go like how did
Speaker 1: I even do that? Or how did I entertain that?
Speaker 1: Or how did we even get here? But you're already
Speaker 1: there at this point where he was like you know
Speaker 1: so love bombing love bombing love bombing that you're like,
Speaker 1: it's hard to get out of that situation, right, and
Speaker 1: you actually don't even know you're in it. So I think, well,
Speaker 1: I think that's like because I'm like, I remember like
Speaker 1: this one dude that wanted to have this like fantasy
Speaker 1: that I'm my mind. I'm like I don't want those,
Speaker 1: but like I'm gonna go for because it's just a fantasy.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna actually happen. But then when it does happen,
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, this is not what I
Speaker 1: actually wanted, like a board, because you're like, ropes aren't hot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but even if it was a healthy relationship and you
Speaker 1: went along with it and then you were like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, this isn't what I want, that person then
Speaker 1: should go oh my gosh, okay, so sorry you're not
Speaker 1: comfortable with that, let's back off. That's where this connection
Speaker 1: is missing. So that's where it's like the fantasy versus reality.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like, you know, with him, like his
Speaker 1: fantasy has turned into this like dark seated reality. And honestly,
Speaker 1: when I was watching it, like it's so sad to see,
Speaker 1: like someone who's that um charismatic. Well, no, it's sick,
Speaker 1: you know, Like it's like it's really like it's it
Speaker 1: was sad to see because I'm like man like, but again,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, And this is one another person
Speaker 1: that like kind of someone that I had, I will say, uh,
Speaker 1: someone that I went on a date with was really
Speaker 1: into like fantasy playing, and like I was immediately like nope,
Speaker 1: like I like again, I can't be kinky. I can
Speaker 1: be like whatever, but when you're when there are things
Speaker 1: that are not lining up and you want me to
Speaker 1: do X, Y and Z, and your fantasies ain't happening
Speaker 1: because your fantasy is. But I'm saying this because I
Speaker 1: think he is similar to the Army situation, where it's
Speaker 1: like this guy could be with anyone he wants to
Speaker 1: be with at any point at any time. Army. He
Speaker 1: came from a multi multi, multimillion dollar family. I mean
Speaker 1: they were like his grandfather didn't want to be the
Speaker 1: great grandfather didn't want to be the president because it
Speaker 1: wasn't powerful enough like he could have been. And that's
Speaker 1: like what was one of the quotes in there, And
Speaker 1: it's like, so it's like, I think people that just
Speaker 1: can have anything they want, they don't have the capacity,
Speaker 1: like they need more, They need more of a fix
Speaker 1: they like because everything else is like, oh, just to
Speaker 1: have sex with a random girl, like how boring? Is up?
Speaker 1: Another hot girl, another hot girl, but let me let
Speaker 1: me throw in this fantasy of what I really want
Speaker 1: to do. It's because they're so numb and the need
Speaker 1: for dominance is underlying in all of those fantasies well
Speaker 1: and in the generation too, which is like wild from
Speaker 1: like the great grandfather to his dad, like and oh god,
Speaker 1: we have this aunt in the waiting room, so let's
Speaker 1: just get her on. Hi. Oh my goodness, it's so
Speaker 1: good just to see. I've I've been watching you. I
Speaker 1: mean I was knee deep in the screeners and watch
Speaker 1: all the episodes and I just and like to have
Speaker 1: you here. I'm just thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: Wine Down and and being a part of the show.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's my pleasure. I was so honored
Speaker 1: when you wanted me to be on. I was like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: I first just want to, um say, you know, you
Speaker 1: shared a lot of hard truth on on you know,
Speaker 1: House of Hammer, and UM, I'm sure you're going to
Speaker 1: be helping so many people too from the things that
Speaker 1: you've said, you know, just about sexual abuse that you encountered,
Speaker 1: and you know, just all the things that you've gone
Speaker 1: through in your life. And I just just thank you
Speaker 1: for being open, vulnerable, and I just I just want
Speaker 1: to kind of affirm you for that because I can't
Speaker 1: imagine how hard that was for you to do. Thanks it, Um,
Speaker 1: it continues to be hard. It's it's a struggle, it's
Speaker 1: it's one thing to UM live it because it's my normal.
Speaker 1: So it's what I experienced, so I'm used to it, right,
Speaker 1: everything I grew up. But again it's it's UM shining
Speaker 1: a light on multigenerational abuse in my family and holding
Speaker 1: them accountable. It's kind of sixty two years later, I
Speaker 1: sit here before you and it's like, all right, it's
Speaker 1: finally coming to the spotlight. And UM, it's been an
Speaker 1: interesting journey because again, seven eight years ago, I self
Speaker 1: published Surviving My Birthright, which was, as you probably know,
Speaker 1: it's a healing journal in a sense where you're writing
Speaker 1: and you're affirming what's happening to you, and and then
Speaker 1: when you're able to actually hold the book right, it
Speaker 1: was UM validating to know that it was real right,
Speaker 1: And again I controlled the narrative, and so then I
Speaker 1: was living a very quiet life down in San Diego.
Speaker 1: And last year I was a kitchen designer at the
Speaker 1: Home Depot and one of my co workers were like, Casey,
Speaker 1: you better get on social media. Someone by the name
Speaker 1: of this in Blonde is blowing up your life. And
Speaker 1: I just remember you, guys, I was watching it live
Speaker 1: as she Li've read my book, UM found it live
Speaker 1: read it and I was like, my life has completely changed,
Speaker 1: just like it's so out of control, like being on
Speaker 1: a roller coaster and you're doing the death drop right
Speaker 1: and you throw your hands up, thinking hopefully I stand
Speaker 1: in the car right. And so then, um, there the
Speaker 1: moment where I think the universe says, here's a situation.
Speaker 1: How are you going to deal with it? Because at
Speaker 1: that time, to Army was all over social media and
Speaker 1: people were reaching out to me wanting a SoundBite once
Speaker 1: they found out he had an aunt, right, and so
Speaker 1: I could have taken that route and participated. And it
Speaker 1: was like, now, if people are going to talk to me,
Speaker 1: I want them to listen, and I want to be
Speaker 1: an advocate for victims and survivors. And it was kind
Speaker 1: of how can I turn this into something greater in
Speaker 1: a sense of shining a light on abuse, because it's
Speaker 1: not just physical abuse that you see. There's mental abuse.
Speaker 1: There's emotional abuse, and it's so deep rooted that you
Speaker 1: get triggered all the time and you don't know what's
Speaker 1: happening and you know you're meant to be isolated and
Speaker 1: self blame and self hatred and all those things. And
Speaker 1: what I'm finding is if people say to me, I
Speaker 1: can see a part of my story in your story,
Speaker 1: because again and a lot of people will say my
Speaker 1: family wasn't as wealthy as yours or dysfunctional. But when
Speaker 1: there's a butt, it's very important to spend a moment
Speaker 1: and really listen because that's people need to be heard.
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that this long winded version of how
Speaker 1: it all kind of happened. And that's how the producers
Speaker 1: found me. They they had read my book and said
Speaker 1: they wanted to tell my story. Um, and I really
Speaker 1: believe they were going to take care of it. And
Speaker 1: then seeing the House of Hammer and the end result,
Speaker 1: I mean again spotlighting those brave women who came forward
Speaker 1: because nowadays with social media, it's so hard and hateful
Speaker 1: and and just I take my hat off to them
Speaker 1: and everyone else that coroborated my story because I've been
Speaker 1: telling this story for a very long time, but now
Speaker 1: people are starting to pay attention. You said too in
Speaker 1: the docuseries. Really they're going to kill me? Sorry I laugh? No,
Speaker 1: No I didn't. I um, but like where was it,
Speaker 1: like what was it in you to be like okay,
Speaker 1: like I have to do whether whether they kill me
Speaker 1: or not. Like it's just like, what was your kind
Speaker 1: of like final like breaking point to be able to
Speaker 1: share and not have that like obviously you still I
Speaker 1: don't know, do you still have fear or that they're
Speaker 1: you know, like have you talked to Michael or any
Speaker 1: of those people. I mean, you see in the House
Speaker 1: of Hammer the third episode. It kind of answers a
Speaker 1: lot of the questions. Um, my whole life, I was threatened,
Speaker 1: and you know, again behind closed doors it was awful,
Speaker 1: and yet once you stepped out the front door, you
Speaker 1: had an image, and my grandfather controlled the narrative, so
Speaker 1: we were threatened all the time, and like, yeah, your
Speaker 1: grandfather was like watching people like that you would like
Speaker 1: date or talked to. I was like, whoa, there were
Speaker 1: pictures of the inside of my apartments that there was
Speaker 1: no way they ever came to. So it was just
Speaker 1: very creepy. But again it was my normal. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're going to be my friend or I'm gonna
Speaker 1: date you, you're gonna be under surveillance and be recorded,
Speaker 1: and you know, you pick up the phone and you'd
Speaker 1: hear a click and you and I just became such
Speaker 1: a smarter you know, it's like high Grandpa, are you listening,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's kind of you have to find
Speaker 1: humor and a way to deal with it because back
Speaker 1: then there was no social media, so you couldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: google how to rich people behave right, you just thought,
Speaker 1: it's my home, it's my parents. They're gonna keep me safe,
Speaker 1: no one's gonna hurt me. And yet in my book,
Speaker 1: I go into a lot more detail about, you know,
Speaker 1: how I was abused or how I was treated it.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is people see in the house of hammer,
Speaker 1: you know, in a eleven year old holding a phone
Speaker 1: book while their father shot at them. It's that there
Speaker 1: was normal activity in my house. So again it's horrific
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. But I just thought he
Speaker 1: would never hurt me, or my mom would never hurt me.
Speaker 1: And and it's just one of those things where again
Speaker 1: I didn't choose this, like I didn't go looking for
Speaker 1: this to happen. Um, I was kind of at peace
Speaker 1: with where my life was in San Diego and kind
Speaker 1: of accepted it. So again I knew there's a reason
Speaker 1: I'm still here, like I shouldn't be right. There were
Speaker 1: so many times I didn't want to be here, and
Speaker 1: I self medicated and did bad things. But I'm a
Speaker 1: year and a half no medication and sitting in my
Speaker 1: emotions and like, it's a journey, it's a wild ride.
Speaker 1: And I'm here to also tell people that you know,
Speaker 1: you can't do it alone and you can find people
Speaker 1: that will help you. I mean, I learned about therapists
Speaker 1: and sliding scales. As crazy as that sounds, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, but again, people will accept they won't to
Speaker 1: help you. And and it's so weird for me to
Speaker 1: be able to say, okay, right, it's kind of like, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It's just it's it's the whole. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: weird right now, but it's good. I mean, I'm still breathing.
Speaker 1: I do a lot of yoga, I do I meditate
Speaker 1: a lot. Um do you still do you still talk
Speaker 1: to any of the family members? UM? Up until about
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago when my mom passed away, UM, she
Speaker 1: kind of kept the fake family glue together and we
Speaker 1: all spent a week on her deathbed and we all
Speaker 1: had to kind of be in the same room and exists.
Speaker 1: So after that we all went our separate ways and
Speaker 1: um again, I was pretty much erased from the family,
Speaker 1: and it's um something I've dealt with, you know, to
Speaker 1: be part of the Army to Hammer family and yet
Speaker 1: not have the benefits of the perks in a sense
Speaker 1: and kind of come to grips with what's my bigger
Speaker 1: purpose for being here? Why am I here? And literally,
Speaker 1: you know last year when the zen Blonde did that,
Speaker 1: I had that Aha moment where I can really do
Speaker 1: some good and if nothing else, shine a light on
Speaker 1: starting a conversation for a safe space for people to
Speaker 1: come forward, for consent, for accountability, and for advocating for
Speaker 1: victims and survivors. And that's kind of what I don't
Speaker 1: know what tomorrow is going to bring, but right now
Speaker 1: it's like, even if it's talking on podcasts or Ted
Speaker 1: Talks or writing another book, at least it's it's out
Speaker 1: there now and I'm not going to stop. I'm curious
Speaker 1: like knowing and watching to like knowing the men in
Speaker 1: your family. Obviously Army is in believe he's done some rehabs.
Speaker 1: Whatever do you do you think that like he can change?
Speaker 1: I mean just knowing again, like the history of of
Speaker 1: the men in your family. Speaking from experience and how
Speaker 1: I grew up. My father was in and out of
Speaker 1: mental institutions my whole life and went to you know,
Speaker 1: rehab a million times at my grandfather's requests, so it
Speaker 1: was never his choice and he never got well, ever healed.
Speaker 1: So for me, I believe that until a person takes
Speaker 1: accountability and makes amends for what they've done and chooses
Speaker 1: to heal, it's just for image. And again, my family,
Speaker 1: it was all about image. So when my mom left
Speaker 1: the house, her cigarettes were died to match her clothes.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how perfect we had to be. It
Speaker 1: was crazy. It was really messed up, but again that's
Speaker 1: that's what I'm used to. So I was told, I mean,
Speaker 1: women in the Hammer family were disposable. We were ornaments
Speaker 1: in the sense. And I was told, as long as
Speaker 1: you know, Casey, you look pretty and you say the
Speaker 1: right thing and don't embarrass us, you'll be taking care
Speaker 1: of the rest of your life. And that's pretty much.
Speaker 1: The men ruled the and my father was an only child,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like it's a big family. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's my brother who's still alive, and then Army and
Speaker 1: his brother Victor, who were still alive and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's all that's slept. I don't remember hearing anything about Victor.
Speaker 1: Is he still, like was he involved in that? Because
Speaker 1: I'm like Victor and Melissa, we didn't hear anything of
Speaker 1: her From Melissa, I don't UM. I haven't been in
Speaker 1: contact with them since my mom passed. UM, And I'm
Speaker 1: not sure where he's at and what's happening right now. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, last I heard the people were in l
Speaker 1: A or the Cayman Islands. It's it's still I kind
Speaker 1: of get my info probably how you guys do on
Speaker 1: you know, social media and and things like that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: we kind of keep our distance right now because too,
Speaker 1: if I live my life afraid, I'm not stupid either
Speaker 1: because I go outside and I know they're you know,
Speaker 1: I need to be careful. But again, if I let
Speaker 1: fear control me, then they take my power. And I
Speaker 1: won't give up my power ever again. So if I
Speaker 1: can make it through today and maybe change and help
Speaker 1: a few people right with my story, and it's good,
Speaker 1: it's it's a good day. So one of the things
Speaker 1: you said in an interview that it really resonated with
Speaker 1: me was it was part of a longer quote, but
Speaker 1: you said something that just really it just sat inside
Speaker 1: of me for a minute. Was power is the drug
Speaker 1: M And I was like, well, I just I mean,
Speaker 1: I couldn't even digest that enough. It was just so
Speaker 1: short inside of that sentence, but it made it just
Speaker 1: fit for them, especially in house of camera. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like, how how whatever reason you guys tune in
Speaker 1: to watch, or people watch, either for army or entertainment
Speaker 1: or just curiosity, by the time you're finished, you're gonna
Speaker 1: see a darker, multi generational abuse of power. And I
Speaker 1: think that's starting. I think it started before my grandfather,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately we only had three hours to tell this story,
Speaker 1: and there's so much more that can be told. Um,
Speaker 1: but my grandfather you saw, you know, President Kennedy on
Speaker 1: the phone, all the President's royalty, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: now King Charles. I mean, there was like all these
Speaker 1: people that were in our circle all the time, and
Speaker 1: it was interesting to watch him control everybody. He recorded people,
Speaker 1: he blackmailed people, and that's how he ran the family also,
Speaker 1: and so did my father and brother. I mean, they
Speaker 1: all participated and that's how they saw it. And it's
Speaker 1: funny too because like my father, you know, killed someone, um,
Speaker 1: and my grandfather covered it up and said it was
Speaker 1: self defense, and my mother was like, no, he did
Speaker 1: it in front of me, pulled out a gun and
Speaker 1: shop the guy. You know. So it's like you saw
Speaker 1: not only a crime committed, but you saw them make
Speaker 1: it go away. I mean, everybody could be bought, Everyone
Speaker 1: had a price, so you didn't want to screw up,
Speaker 1: like because you saw the ramifications of what my grandfather
Speaker 1: picking up the phone could do. And again, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's really scary and frightening when you think about it,
Speaker 1: especially like you know, when you think about, like again,
Speaker 1: people in power, and it's like, yeah, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: like I wonder how many people this person is killed
Speaker 1: or this, you know, because they have that position of power.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, one thing that I thought that
Speaker 1: this that they did really well. And I want to
Speaker 1: know if you kind of agree, is I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of times in our world, when we dive
Speaker 1: into a story of one person, we stop at one
Speaker 1: person and so like or we maybe go like one
Speaker 1: generation over or whatever. But like to see this and
Speaker 1: I thought like even the way that they did, the
Speaker 1: visual of just showing us the family tree back and
Speaker 1: forth and from Army all the way back to your
Speaker 1: great grandfather, right, no, your grandfather. Yeah. Um. I just
Speaker 1: thought what was really eye opening and what people need
Speaker 1: to see more of is that cycle breakers like yourself
Speaker 1: are rare, brave, rare, powerful humans. That's what you are,
Speaker 1: a brave, rare, powerful human. But we don't see how
Speaker 1: it just keeps getting passed down, Like we just we
Speaker 1: keep dealing with what's in front of us. But what's
Speaker 1: in front of us isn't the whole truth, And what's
Speaker 1: in front of us isn't generational usually is it's there's
Speaker 1: so much generational behind everything that we're not even giving
Speaker 1: the attention or power love to to try to even
Speaker 1: figure out where this came from. Like Army came from
Speaker 1: somewhere he saw too much. Right, It's not something that
Speaker 1: you wake up and become a monster. It's something it's
Speaker 1: a learned behavior. So it's kind of this control um
Speaker 1: and again, the power to be able to not only
Speaker 1: commit a crime, but to make it go away and disappear.
Speaker 1: I mean that's huge, right um. And it's it's something
Speaker 1: that you know, again, when I used to talk about
Speaker 1: this about my family, people would automatically assume, oh, you
Speaker 1: must have done something wrong because your family is like
Speaker 1: wonderful on the outside. Well, yeah, it's all about image.
Speaker 1: I mean my brother, my father, my even my grandfather,
Speaker 1: even Army would walk into a room and they're this,
Speaker 1: you know, six foot two three four, good looking, personable.
Speaker 1: Like I used to always make a joke that they
Speaker 1: could all be politicians because you really buy into their image.
Speaker 1: So people love them. So if if something's not sitting right,
Speaker 1: it was your fault. So a lot of the response
Speaker 1: I've gotten from the docuseries, from my friends or people
Speaker 1: I've grown up with is I had no idea, and
Speaker 1: it's kind of like I tried to tell you, but
Speaker 1: you wouldn't listen. So now I think what opened up
Speaker 1: the door and all honesty is the me too movement
Speaker 1: right brought attention on workplace environment, So I say there
Speaker 1: should be me too about home too, Because just because
Speaker 1: your parents give birth to you right and say they
Speaker 1: love you, it doesn't mean they can do anything they
Speaker 1: want to you or put you in harm's way. It's
Speaker 1: just it's not okay and it needs to stop. Um
Speaker 1: And again, it's one person talking another person talking and
Speaker 1: another person and letting them know it's okay to come forward.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the Doctor series, you seek consent is
Speaker 1: a huge topic because it's such a gray area. It's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not here to judge what you enjoy or what
Speaker 1: you don't enjoy. But the minute you say no, I'm
Speaker 1: not comfortable. Person needs to stop otherwise it's criminal. I
Speaker 1: mean there's a line that's crossed. So again, you can't
Speaker 1: just say, oh, well, she was really into it, and
Speaker 1: you know it's her fault. She didn't live no, and
Speaker 1: that's where we need to really talk about it. I
Speaker 1: thought that too. There was a couple of the the
Speaker 1: women that he I'm gonna say, I'm gonna just say victims.
Speaker 1: So when they spoke, they you could almost tell like
Speaker 1: they had been shamed into this place of like why
Speaker 1: didn't say no? And they even said it, well I
Speaker 1: didn't say no, but I was like, okay, but when
Speaker 1: you're running away or you're being dragged down a hallway
Speaker 1: and being sexually abused, that's what that is sexual abuse
Speaker 1: at that point, and you could just I hated it
Speaker 1: because I watched them both say, two of them, at
Speaker 1: least that I can remember say, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't say no. It was like as if as if
Speaker 1: it's it's it's okay, or it's you're their fault, or
Speaker 1: you know that's not the truth, so it's and it's
Speaker 1: not okay. And and and again it needs to Um,
Speaker 1: the people need to be held accountable. And it's the
Speaker 1: people with money and power and fame that get away
Speaker 1: with all of it or most of it because they
Speaker 1: can cover it up or silence you. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's fearful that you know you might be followed or threatened.
Speaker 1: And we all know that that's going on in a
Speaker 1: sense of when you are going to speak out about someone,
Speaker 1: especially someone famous, there's probably threats all the time. And
Speaker 1: and and again, I really take my hat off to
Speaker 1: the victims that came forward because that they still deal with.
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of hate on social media. I mean, fortunately, Um,
Speaker 1: I think the zen blonde who outed me, who were
Speaker 1: dear friends now because she realized that she should have
Speaker 1: halfway through maybe asked me like, didn't realize what she
Speaker 1: was doing right, Um, But again back then in TikTok,
Speaker 1: you had sixty seconds. So I laugh at her and
Speaker 1: I was like Lauren, you were you know, like caffeinated wrong.
Speaker 1: She goes, No, you don't understand. I only had sixty
Speaker 1: seconds where now you know you can talk for a while.
Speaker 1: I guess, but you know, again there are She went
Speaker 1: and blocked a lot of the haters on my DMS
Speaker 1: because I take it personally. I mean, I read everything
Speaker 1: and it means the world to me when people tell
Speaker 1: me their story or they share an experience or even
Speaker 1: just say thank you. I mean, but then you see
Speaker 1: that one person um that maybe says bad things, and
Speaker 1: it just triggers all that you're working so hard to
Speaker 1: get through in your life and deal with. I get triggered,
Speaker 1: and it's like you go into this death spiral I
Speaker 1: call it, you know, down the rabbit hole of just
Speaker 1: like going back to being thirteen years old or eleven
Speaker 1: years old or twelve years old, and it's like, I
Speaker 1: feel like such a failure that I didn't protect little Casey. Right.
Speaker 1: It's like, so you work really hard to try and
Speaker 1: go back visually and take her hand and you know,
Speaker 1: let's go on a walk or go to the ocean
Speaker 1: or something, goofy. I mean literally, it's like there's so
Speaker 1: many ways to to try and heal, but it's it's
Speaker 1: a constant struggle and people need to know it's not easy. No,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not. But also I want to say
Speaker 1: to you too in the you know, thirteen year old Casey,
Speaker 1: is you know when your mom was getting hit and
Speaker 1: you saw the blood from what your father just did
Speaker 1: to her. You know that's something too where it's like
Speaker 1: she still brought you in and there's no blame placing
Speaker 1: blame on your mom, but it's also like you know
Speaker 1: there was you maybe grew up and I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to project this just like I'm thinking of like my
Speaker 1: past is like then you're thinking like, oh, that's how
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be, and that's my worth and that's
Speaker 1: what a man should be doing to you, and like
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like I'm sure your mom would
Speaker 1: probably want to go back and take you out and
Speaker 1: never bring you back, you know, but you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know how then she was raised her. So it's
Speaker 1: like I also know that you know it's um you
Speaker 1: you're only thirteen, You didn't know that you you know
Speaker 1: how to leave? Could you couldn't leave? The sad thing too,
Speaker 1: is that you know That's what I believed in my mind,
Speaker 1: that my mom would keep me safe and coming to
Speaker 1: grips with on her deathbed, because again, there was all
Speaker 1: this abuse going on in the house. And when I
Speaker 1: first wrote my book, I had her read it along
Speaker 1: with everybody else in the family. Um, when I got triggered,
Speaker 1: I think it was in my thirties. I was doing
Speaker 1: a b role for victim No More right. It's in
Speaker 1: the House of Hammer docuseries and they were like, okay, Ca,
Speaker 1: so you're gonna pretend like you're getting you know, raped
Speaker 1: in the car or whatever. I was like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to be an actor. So when
Speaker 1: that when they started and my hands got held over
Speaker 1: my head, all of a sudden something kicked in of
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna die, like this is very familiar, and
Speaker 1: my body went crazy and I almost killed this guy,
Speaker 1: this poor actor, and it was like I was shaking,
Speaker 1: and I was and all of a sudden, the floodgates
Speaker 1: open and I'm in my thirties and I'm remembering all this,
Speaker 1: and I go right to my mom and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I must be crazy, right, like I'm remember and she
Speaker 1: admitted she knew everything that was happening. So then again
Speaker 1: you go, okay, so why didn't you save me? Why
Speaker 1: didn't you protect me? And then on her deathbed, and
Speaker 1: this is where you can't change people. You cannot. It's
Speaker 1: almost like I tried for all these years. I just
Speaker 1: wanted her to say I love you, I'm sorry, I
Speaker 1: should have protected you, and you know what, that never
Speaker 1: came out. So it's that moment where you just feel
Speaker 1: broken that no one loves you, and it's but again,
Speaker 1: it's that void, and then all of a sudden it
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's like, Okay, this is what I'm chasing.
Speaker 1: If this is what I need to work on going back,
Speaker 1: and you know it's not my fault adublet cases that
Speaker 1: I didn't protect little Casey. But it's really hard if
Speaker 1: you guys have gone through any abuse, which you know
Speaker 1: I'm not, but you know, it's so hard to rewrite
Speaker 1: that script and and and kind of love yourself. So
Speaker 1: that's what I struggle with. But I'm getting so much better.
Speaker 1: But again, it's it's a it's a process. But if
Speaker 1: people here that you know, even someone like me raised
Speaker 1: in the family like mine, thinking that you know, everything
Speaker 1: is perfect and wonderful, I'm really I'm just as messed
Speaker 1: up and I struggle, you know, every day. But again,
Speaker 1: if I wake up and I have my cats and
Speaker 1: you know I can write, it's just yeah, you just
Speaker 1: it's it's um, it's a have you been able to
Speaker 1: give your heart to someone and be you know, how's
Speaker 1: your relationship coming from that? It's Wait, you don't and
Speaker 1: you don't super trust me, and that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: I love you. I mean, now I can look back
Speaker 1: at all the men I dated or married, right, and
Speaker 1: they're all the epitome of my father and my brother.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, what what was I thinking? So
Speaker 1: I'm the type I'd rather be alone and I don't
Speaker 1: do apps or any so yeah, it's like, but I
Speaker 1: still believe in the fairytale, you guys, I'm a hopeful romantic.
Speaker 1: So one day, but he doesn't need to come and
Speaker 1: rescue me anymore because I did that myself. He just
Speaker 1: needs to come and and you know, contribute to my
Speaker 1: life exactly, be a partner, and and we can travel
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna have kids, so that's out of
Speaker 1: the you know, the story. But again, hopefully I I
Speaker 1: don't give up. I think that one day that truly
Speaker 1: will happen. I believe the universe is going to send
Speaker 1: me someone after I get better and stronger on my
Speaker 1: own and know that it's me that's that's strong, right,
Speaker 1: Casey Yeah, I mean thank you for just your words
Speaker 1: and sharing everything and um, wow, you're an incredible human being. Yeah,
Speaker 1: these guys are wonderful. Where can I Where can our
Speaker 1: listeners you know, find you and and you know reach out.
Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram, so Casey Hammer twenty one and then um,
Speaker 1: I'm on TikTok Casey Hammer zero, I think, um, and
Speaker 1: I'm on Facebook and also um, yeah, like again I
Speaker 1: read the d M s Um, I appreciate all the
Speaker 1: love and support. Um, it's still yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to put in rewards how grateful I am.
Speaker 1: But again it's it's. Um, it's just embracing the journey.
Speaker 1: And and I don't know where it's going to lead,
Speaker 1: but I'm hoping that I can continue to, you know,
Speaker 1: speak out for victims and survivors and really open up
Speaker 1: the conversation. So you guys have helped this because I
Speaker 1: know that your podcast reaches a lot to people and
Speaker 1: I appreciate you for inviting me on. Well, we go
Speaker 1: back with thirteen year old Casey and we bring her
Speaker 1: straight up to and tell her love her and she's
Speaker 1: brilliant and beautiful. She's so honored to amend that it's
Speaker 1: a part of your story. Um, Casey, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on. We'd love to have you on again,
Speaker 1: so hopefully we can chat in the future. Okay, and
Speaker 1: thank you so much, you guys. I so appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Appreciate thank you. By oh man, that's just like she's beautiful.
Speaker 1: She's so beautiful, and it's just I'm just I'm glad
Speaker 1: that she freed herself from the trap and from the
Speaker 1: you know, like she's allowing herself to still feel love.
Speaker 1: Like what a beautiful thing like that. She's like I still,
Speaker 1: you know, still a hopeless romantic, even after the freaking
Speaker 1: history and the pain and the abuse and like that,
Speaker 1: she's still like she's still kicking it, you know, and
Speaker 1: like I know, it's very to me. I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: like you could be like on the I'm going to
Speaker 1: remind you what she said if you ever go into
Speaker 1: a dark hole again. But yeah, I mean she's just
Speaker 1: like everybody else, though she's still triggered by the mean
Speaker 1: d m s, you know, as brave as she's been.
Speaker 1: You know, I think everyone needs to know that people
Speaker 1: get triggered by that, you know. I mean, people need
Speaker 1: to know that we're people. I mean, like, her story
Speaker 1: is crazy and people are still just going to give
Speaker 1: her hate. You know. I hate that for her because
Speaker 1: she's been so brave and stood up for so many people.
Speaker 1: The hate thing just drives me crazy. And that's like again,
Speaker 1: when I reached out to the one girl in the docuseries,
Speaker 1: I was like, the most hate comes from women, and
Speaker 1: that part will always forever blow my mind. Why we
Speaker 1: can't just like support other women and why hate? Why
Speaker 1: why are we hating on other women? You don't know
Speaker 1: what someone's been through, what they're going through, um, what
Speaker 1: they went through. And it's like that part just like
Speaker 1: really just like makes me sad that, like people are
Speaker 1: just so hurtful and so mean and just like either
Speaker 1: want to compare or want to be nasty, you want
Speaker 1: to be like why would like how could you do? Why?
Speaker 1: It's like you don't know someone's you know, history, someone's
Speaker 1: just just don't know. It's like yourself right to yourself
Speaker 1: because it's just projecting. Yes, it's it's do the work
Speaker 1: join the rest of us, right, but I can. I'll
Speaker 1: give you a code. She's got a therapist code to
Speaker 1: but really, do you know what I posted something? Darn man,
Speaker 1: I posted like something about therapy. Just again, I like
Speaker 1: to just try to help other people, you know, after
Speaker 1: I sit with it for a little bit, help someone
Speaker 1: else know that. Like people were all just in seasons
Speaker 1: and like they're just like, oh, her therapist went back
Speaker 1: to elementary school with the chalk because she's just thrown
Speaker 1: up her hands not to do, not sure what to
Speaker 1: do with Joanna, And I'm like, man's like all in
Speaker 1: her child you had. I'm sorry, but it's fine. They'll
Speaker 1: bleep it. But it's like it's just like man, like
Speaker 1: I find something, It's like it's I just it just
Speaker 1: makes me so now I'm like I just want to
Speaker 1: like now I'm just going to rand people's d ms
Speaker 1: and just saying just niceness, like like just being kind
Speaker 1: because as I'm like, why should get their address and
Speaker 1: Amazon Primum some sidewalk chalk they hide behind their computers.
Speaker 1: But anyways, I um casey is very strong all like that.
Speaker 1: The whole documentary. Um Watch, it's on Believe, it's on
Speaker 1: Discovery plus House of Hammer, and it's it's sad to say.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I hope, I hope Army can
Speaker 1: get the Helpy he you know, is is I hope?
Speaker 1: I mean, I do believe people can change. I I
Speaker 1: do do personally. Um, that is going to be a
Speaker 1: lot of I mean, that is some dark, deep, deep stuff,
Speaker 1: But I mean I do believe people can change, and
Speaker 1: I do believe, you know, and I kind of love
Speaker 1: the fact that Robert Downey is you know, I think
Speaker 1: he'd either paid for his rehab or something, because it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, he knows what it's like to be canceled
Speaker 1: and written off as a human. And I don't think
Speaker 1: I personally just don't think people should be written off
Speaker 1: as humans. And it's like it's in church, like you
Speaker 1: know our pastor does you know, um it was in bars?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, church and bars or whatever. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: people can do some awful, terrible things, but like I
Speaker 1: still believe people deserve a chance to change and do better.
Speaker 1: Absolutely I agree, and a little grace along the way.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of grace sometimes. Well, I mean, so
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard like someone that I'm less a child.
Speaker 1: I don't think like you you could, you're dead to me.
Speaker 1: So there's certain things where I'm like, you know, how
Speaker 1: much of a hypocritem I then to say that they
Speaker 1: who I don't know, his his past, you know what
Speaker 1: that person might have done to who? You know, it's
Speaker 1: a bit like, well, that's why I think it's people
Speaker 1: like he's great for somebody like Casey, because it's you're
Speaker 1: so easily canceled now. I mean, I know what it
Speaker 1: feels like. Even I've had my own podcast and I've
Speaker 1: been afraid to even talk on there sometimes because I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: if I say the wrong thing, it doesn't just affect
Speaker 1: my career, affects my husband's career. I don't want to
Speaker 1: have to get canceled. Yeah, it's like, but then we're
Speaker 1: supposed to all connect. That's why God put us here.
Speaker 1: We're supposed to commune and connect and share stories and
Speaker 1: be with each other and be in the valleys and
Speaker 1: the mountaintops with each other. So it feels like we
Speaker 1: are just so quick to just end everything. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let's be nice slide into someone's dams and say something nice.
Speaker 1: To be nice to my best friend, you put whatever
Speaker 1: you're the means of them all they say anything. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: we'll see you next week and bye.