1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:21,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin, and so ladies and gentlemen, we moved to the 2 00:00:21,556 --> 00:00:25,156 Speaker 1: Leonardo da Vinci the Sabotomunday, the masterpiece by Leonardo of 3 00:00:25,236 --> 00:00:28,396 Speaker 1: Christ's Savior, previously in the collections of three Kings of England, 4 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: art at ninety million, being auctioned, the parting of rich 5 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: people from their money, and I go one over. It 6 00:00:38,316 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 1: takes me back to the early nineteen eighties and my 7 00:00:41,636 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 1: first job after college. I was the stock boy for 8 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:48,796 Speaker 1: a New York art dealer called Wildenstein. Just about everything 9 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: about the place felt like a secret, except for how 10 00:00:51,276 --> 00:00:53,836 Speaker 1: it had started. At the end of the nineteenth century, 11 00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 1: a Jewish street peddler in Paris named Nathan Wildenstein traded 12 00:00:57,556 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 1: rags for paintings with some odd ball artists. They called 13 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:06,076 Speaker 1: themselves the Impressionists. He did this so well that by 14 00:01:06,076 --> 00:01:08,956 Speaker 1: the time I got to the Wildenstein's the family had 15 00:01:08,996 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 1: the most valuable private collection of art in the world. 16 00:01:12,396 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: Huge vaults lined with racks of Monais and Renoirs and 17 00:01:16,796 --> 00:01:21,676 Speaker 1: Pizarros that no one had ever seen. They had Rembrandts, 18 00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:26,676 Speaker 1: they had Raphael's, They had sixty nine Fragonards. Today the 19 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 1: whole collection would fetch fifty billion dollars easily, but it 20 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:36,156 Speaker 1: was a strange business selling art so guarded the Wildenstein 21 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:38,996 Speaker 1: family didn't even really want customers to know what they 22 00:01:39,036 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 1: had for sale. To keep their tax status as a 23 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:45,316 Speaker 1: public gallery, they stuck a few obscure paintings on the 24 00:01:45,316 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 1: downstairs walls. The rest they kept hidden upstairs with me. 25 00:01:50,956 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 1: And so when people asked me what I actually did 26 00:01:53,516 --> 00:01:56,596 Speaker 1: for the Wildenstein Gallery, I found it hard to explain. 27 00:01:57,556 --> 00:01:59,796 Speaker 1: One of my predecessors had put his foot through us 28 00:01:59,956 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: is on. Clearly my job was not to do that. 29 00:02:04,316 --> 00:02:06,636 Speaker 1: But most of the time I just sat in a 30 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:09,996 Speaker 1: small cubby upstairs and waited to be asked to move 31 00:02:10,036 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: the art around. There was the aroma of Cologne worn 32 00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:17,156 Speaker 1: by rich Frenchmen, but otherwise the place was a sensory 33 00:02:17,196 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: deprivation chamber. Weeks would pass without anyone showing up. Then 34 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 1: one day Thomas Hoving appeared. Hoving had just spent a 35 00:02:28,356 --> 00:02:31,756 Speaker 1: decade running the Metropolitan Museum of Art and was still 36 00:02:31,796 --> 00:02:35,996 Speaker 1: a huge deal in the art world. The Wildenstein's told 37 00:02:35,996 --> 00:02:38,876 Speaker 1: me to show him whatever he wanted to see. No 38 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:42,556 Speaker 1: one else got that sort of treatment. Hoving trusted his 39 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:46,556 Speaker 1: first impressions. Actually, that's not quite right. He made a 40 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 1: fetish of his first impressions. As I hauled paintings in 41 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:53,196 Speaker 1: and out of the viewing room, he stood with his 42 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 1: back to me. He refused so much as to glimpse 43 00:02:56,756 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: the pictures until I had them set up on the easel. 44 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: I grunt and groan under some laughing cavalier by Franz Halls, 45 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 1: and hoisted onto the red velvet easel. Then I'd say ready, 46 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:12,156 Speaker 1: and he'd swivel kind of like a gunfighter, and blurt 47 00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: whatever popped into his head, sublime, luminous nineteenth century copy, 48 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 1: and every now and then he'd swivel in holler. Fake 49 00:03:25,276 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 1: life in the art world had made Thomas Hoving wary. 50 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:31,156 Speaker 1: As he stood in front of art works in the 51 00:03:31,196 --> 00:03:34,116 Speaker 1: Wildenstein Vault, he told me that half the paintings in 52 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:37,436 Speaker 1: American museums were not by the person whose name was 53 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 1: on the wall. They were by someone else, an assistant, 54 00:03:41,556 --> 00:03:46,076 Speaker 1: a follower, a forger. Hoving said that was the point 55 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:49,196 Speaker 1: of all the secrecy, to hide the way the art 56 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:52,316 Speaker 1: world really worked, And the way it worked was that 57 00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:55,636 Speaker 1: the referees in the art market, the experts, who declared 58 00:03:55,636 --> 00:03:57,836 Speaker 1: a painting was by this old master or that one. 59 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 1: Those experts were encouraged to make mistakes. A ref who 60 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:05,236 Speaker 1: attributed a painting to a famous artist was paid a 61 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:07,316 Speaker 1: lot better than a ref who said it was by 62 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: some obscure assistant. Hoving may have been the single savvaus 63 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:15,916 Speaker 1: player the art market has ever seen. By my time 64 00:04:15,916 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: at Wildenstein, he was representing private collectors and he didn't 65 00:04:20,196 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 1: want his clients to be fleeced. He trusted his first 66 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:27,596 Speaker 1: impressions because there was nothing else to trust. The art world, 67 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 1: more or less was rigged. That's what he was saying, 68 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 1: and the referees helped to rig it. The rests were 69 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 1: paid to say, yes, yes, it's a Rembrand, Yes it's 70 00:04:41,596 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: a mone Yes it's a Leonardo. Where is that? One 71 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 1: fifty welcome at one hundred fifty million On the left, 72 00:04:49,996 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 1: one sixty might take it at one hundred and fifty million. 73 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 1: Many places. Still, I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against 74 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:01,236 Speaker 1: the rules, A show about the attack on the authority 75 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:04,716 Speaker 1: of the referees in American life and what that's doing 76 00:05:04,996 --> 00:05:10,436 Speaker 1: to our idea of fairness. Minute these two hundred been 77 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 1: in his bid, give me ten at two hundred mien. 78 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:15,076 Speaker 1: In his bid two hund have been in his here 79 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 1: currently hanging with Alex on my right at two hundred 80 00:05:18,036 --> 00:05:21,796 Speaker 1: million or Leonardo at two hundred million for two tens, 81 00:05:21,796 --> 00:05:24,316 Speaker 1: so you're coming back in at two hundred forty millions. 82 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: Connoisseurs used to be the ultimate arbitrary, especially in legal cases. 83 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 1: Even this is Walter Isaacson. He's written books about Ben 84 00:05:39,076 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 1: Franklin and Albert Einstein and Steve Jobs, and now he's 85 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: written about Leonardo da Vinci and told the story of 86 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 1: this mysterious painting supposedly by Leonardo of Jesus Christ. Walter's 87 00:05:52,356 --> 00:05:56,236 Speaker 1: interested in who gets to decide who painted what and 88 00:05:56,396 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 1: how they decide the art refs. They would bring in 89 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 1: Thomas Hoving or people like that, and they would make 90 00:06:04,156 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 1: a pronouncement and then just not not brook any descent 91 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 1: till ever, as it happens, Walter and I went to 92 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,676 Speaker 1: the same high school in New Orleans. He was eight 93 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:18,476 Speaker 1: years ahead of me. Every couple of years, the entire 94 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: student body of the Isidore Newman School would be herded 95 00:06:21,996 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: into the school auditorium to hear Walter speak. There we 96 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 1: were told all over again that we should all be 97 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 1: a bit more like Walter and every time Walter had 98 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: some new achievement. First had gone to Harvard, then had 99 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 1: been a Rhodes scholar, then had been the youngest editor 100 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:44,476 Speaker 1: ever at Time magazine. God knows if that was even true, 101 00:06:44,516 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: but that's what they told us. And here he and 102 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:50,556 Speaker 1: I are again. He's somehow now written the best biography 103 00:06:50,556 --> 00:06:54,316 Speaker 1: of Leonardo da Vinci, which brings us to this painting 104 00:06:54,676 --> 00:07:01,636 Speaker 1: called Salvador Mundi and a question who painted it. There 105 00:07:01,636 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 1: are a few facts you need to know about the 106 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 1: Salvador Mundi. The first is that it depicts a common 107 00:07:06,916 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 1: subject in the history of Western art, Christ as the 108 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: Savior of the World, been painted thousands and thousands of 109 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 1: times in more or less the same way. Jesus, looking 110 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 1: bored or even a bit stoned, stares straight ahead. His 111 00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:25,116 Speaker 1: left hand holds a globe and his right hand is 112 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: held up by his side. In the version I'm talking about, 113 00:07:28,876 --> 00:07:31,916 Speaker 1: Jesus has his fingers crossed, like maybe he's just fibbing. 114 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:35,676 Speaker 1: The second thing you need to know about this particular 115 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: painting called Salvador Mundi. It was auctioned by Christie's in 116 00:07:39,996 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 1: November two and seventeen. Up to that point, there was 117 00:07:43,876 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 1: no record of Leonardo da Vinci having painted it. Most 118 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:51,356 Speaker 1: paintings by Leonardo can be linked to documents that describe 119 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: Leonardo working on it, or promising to work on it, 120 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 1: or at least pretending to work on it. He painted 121 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 1: so little and so reluctantly that whatever he did paint 122 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 1: usually struck his contemporaries as worth mentioning the Salvador Mundi 123 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 1: has got nothing, not so much as a footnote. In 124 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 1: Leonardo's diaries, one of Leonardo's assistants mentions Leonardo being asked 125 00:08:15,316 --> 00:08:19,436 Speaker 1: to paint something called Christ the Father, and that's it. 126 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: Last thing. Most of Leonardo's paintings have his actual fingerprints 127 00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:28,356 Speaker 1: on them. He liked to smudge the paint. Are there 128 00:08:28,396 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 1: any fingerprints on the Salvador Monday Is or anybody? Now? Well, 129 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:37,036 Speaker 1: now there's no Leonardo fingerprint that authenticates it now. The 130 00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: first mention of what might be the painting comes in 131 00:08:40,276 --> 00:08:44,356 Speaker 1: sixteen fifty one, that's one hundred and thirty two years 132 00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: after Leonardo died. A piece of Christ done by Leonardo 133 00:08:50,996 --> 00:08:53,436 Speaker 1: was listed along with the rest of Charles the First's 134 00:08:53,436 --> 00:08:57,956 Speaker 1: possessions after he was beheaded in London for treason, but 135 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:02,476 Speaker 1: it's unclear exactly which piece of christ it was. Around 136 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:06,516 Speaker 1: the same time, a check artist named Wenceslaus Holler made 137 00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 1: an engraving of Jesus as Savior of the World. That 138 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:13,476 Speaker 1: engraving was said to be a copy of a Leonardo, 139 00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:17,916 Speaker 1: But that engraving also looks like any number of Salvador Mundi's. 140 00:09:18,396 --> 00:09:21,156 Speaker 1: It was a genre by this point, and if anyone 141 00:09:21,196 --> 00:09:24,116 Speaker 1: back in those days had any conviction that Leonardo painted 142 00:09:24,116 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: this particular Salvador Mundi, they did a really good job 143 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 1: of hiding their feelings. Meanwhile, the painting that Christie's eventually sold, 144 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 1: that got tossed around for years as if it had 145 00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 1: no special value. Right through the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, 146 00:09:41,036 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 1: the picture was identified as the work of someone called 147 00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 1: Bernardino Luini, then later as the copy of a work 148 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:54,396 Speaker 1: by someone else called Boltraffio, and no one really bothered 149 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: to keep track of it. By the nineteen fifties it 150 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 1: was officially lost. Oh but it wasn't lost. It was 151 00:10:01,876 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: in New Orleans, hanging, just a short walk from the 152 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 1: houses where Walter and I live, right through our childhoods. 153 00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: It had been bought in the late nineteen fifties in 154 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:14,636 Speaker 1: London for forty five pounds by a New Orleans couple 155 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: named Warren and Minnie Koots. The Koots has lived on 156 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 1: the same street as my parents, six blocks away. Every 157 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: day for roughly eight years, I rode my bicycle to 158 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:30,636 Speaker 1: school past this mysterious painting. Who knew? Not me, not Walter, 159 00:10:31,556 --> 00:10:36,916 Speaker 1: no one anyway. Warren and Mini Koonts died and left 160 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 1: their art collection to their nephew in two thousand and four. 161 00:10:40,316 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 1: The nephew died and his heirs sold it through a 162 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 1: New Orleans auction house. That's where a New York art dealer, 163 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:49,596 Speaker 1: Robert Simon, paid ten thousand dollars for It's hard to 164 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:53,276 Speaker 1: say what it was. It was a severely damaged torso 165 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 1: and head of a sad looking stoner holding a crystal orb. Yeah, 166 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:01,916 Speaker 1: it started with Robert Simon and a couple of the 167 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:05,676 Speaker 1: dealers who kind of found it, had a sense of 168 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 1: what it might be. Then they have it cleaned, cleaned, 169 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 1: I mean, exactly did they do well? They overcleaned it 170 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:16,476 Speaker 1: and overrestored it. Many critics would say, the question is 171 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: how many current brush drugs on that piece of wood 172 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 1: actually were from a brush being held by the hand 173 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: of Leonardo and I suspect not many, because you know, 174 00:11:30,476 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 1: probably done by artists in the studio, and certainly the 175 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:39,076 Speaker 1: restoration when it was found in Louisiana, Jesus had a beard, 176 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:41,276 Speaker 1: so they take the beard off of him in the 177 00:11:41,396 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 1: restoration because the lencis lost Holler copy done three or 178 00:11:46,156 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: four centuries ago didn't have a beard, so when they 179 00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 1: restore it, they take the beard off. So it begins 180 00:11:52,756 --> 00:11:58,676 Speaker 1: to get more amusing. Maybe, But even after the Salvador 181 00:11:58,756 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: Mundi has been repainted to feel more like a Leonardo, 182 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 1: it still doesn't feel much like a Leonardo. For example, 183 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:07,956 Speaker 1: the crystal orb is a real problem, at least if 184 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:11,036 Speaker 1: you want to believe Leonardo hated it. Reading your book, 185 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:15,836 Speaker 1: the person I'm reading about would revel in showing the 186 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: optical effects of the clear globe on the other side 187 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 1: of the globe, and he doesn't do that right, And 188 00:12:22,596 --> 00:12:24,476 Speaker 1: that's a bit of a mystery what you have. There 189 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 1: is a crystal orb that Jesus is holding, and a 190 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:33,516 Speaker 1: crystal as Leonardo very well knew because he studied lenses 191 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:37,316 Speaker 1: and the focusing of light would have distorted the robe 192 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:42,676 Speaker 1: of Jesus. And yet there's not the tiniest bit of 193 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: distortion in the robes of Jesus. But what the restorer 194 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 1: does to the painting may be less important than what 195 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:52,756 Speaker 1: she doesn't do. This would be the moment to test 196 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:54,876 Speaker 1: the paint to see if it's the sort of stuff 197 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,556 Speaker 1: that Leonardo used, to test the wood to see how 198 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:01,676 Speaker 1: old it is, and to do this out in the open. 199 00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 1: The people who had this painting, the dealers who discovered 200 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 1: it and would try to authenticate it. They had it 201 00:13:07,876 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 1: restored by stores, but all done in secret. It wasn't 202 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:14,756 Speaker 1: as if we have what we think as a Leonardo 203 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:16,636 Speaker 1: and we want a hundred experts in and we're going 204 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 1: to invite television crews in and scientists and as we 205 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,996 Speaker 1: strip off parts of the paint and take his beard 206 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: off and repaint some of the strokes. That would have 207 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 1: been a period where you probably could have had more 208 00:13:30,036 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 1: independent scientific and technical analysis. But I think they were 209 00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 1: keeping it under wraps, and for reasons I understand but 210 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 1: aren't totally perfect reasons. What would be the good reason 211 00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 1: to do that. I think that they wanted to keep 212 00:13:44,556 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 1: it under wraps because they hadn't finished authenticating, They hadn't 213 00:13:48,236 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 1: put it up for sale. It's pretty great, you find 214 00:13:52,196 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 1: this painting in Louisiana. You really hope it's a Leonardo, 215 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 1: so you can sell it as a Leonardo. But the 216 00:13:59,796 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 1: smart way to do this is to keep it in 217 00:14:02,236 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: hiding for a while. Then they first go to the experts, 218 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 1: the referees, and only now after the painting has been 219 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: gussied up by its new owners do the authenticators get involved, 220 00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: but not openly. The new owners don't just call in 221 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: any referee who might have something useful to say about 222 00:14:21,956 --> 00:14:27,116 Speaker 1: Leonardo era paintings. After Jesus has been repainted heavily and 223 00:14:27,196 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: he looks a lot more like a Leonardo than he 224 00:14:29,236 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: did before, the new owners hand pick the refs. They 225 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:34,796 Speaker 1: want to see the painting in a way that makes 226 00:14:34,796 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 1: the refs feel like they're being invited into an exclusive club. 227 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 1: They send them this note saying, we are convinced that 228 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 1: it is Leonardo's original version, although some of us consider 229 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:48,596 Speaker 1: that there may be parts which are by the workshop. 230 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 1: Would you be free to come to London at any 231 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: time in this period. We are only inviting two or 232 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 1: three scholars, Only two or three scholars. That wasn't against 233 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:02,836 Speaker 1: the rules reenactment. By the way, one of the authenticators 234 00:15:02,916 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: later declares the painting look to him uniquely Leonardo in 235 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:09,916 Speaker 1: conceptual terms, in the way it looked at, the sheer 236 00:15:10,036 --> 00:15:14,356 Speaker 1: complexity of seeing what stands out for me. No one 237 00:15:14,396 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: seems to object to these authenticators assessing the painting in 238 00:15:17,436 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 1: the presence of people with a financial stake in their judgments, 239 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:25,676 Speaker 1: and by the time the scholars show up, the stakes 240 00:15:25,796 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 1: are huge. If two or three refs declare the picture 241 00:15:29,636 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 1: of Leonardo, it will be included in a blockbuster Leonardo 242 00:15:33,356 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 1: show at the National Gallery in London, and the experts declare, yes, 243 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: it's a Leonardo. Well that's not a queuing at one 244 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:45,596 Speaker 1: o'clock this morning, blinds. I think there was seven hundred 245 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: when we've got here, people camping out on museum steps 246 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,156 Speaker 1: for a spot. But they all seem perfectly happy to 247 00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: que videos on the National Gallery's website for years to come. 248 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 1: There are all people who go to expersitions like this 249 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: page to contact with a genius from the pasture. So 250 00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 1: that was the twenty eleven show at the National Gallery. 251 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 1: And guess what happens after it. The Salvador Mundi is 252 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: sold in secret to a Russian billionaire for one hundred 253 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:21,116 Speaker 1: and ten million dollars. The Russian billionaire sticks it in 254 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 1: a Swiss warehouse for a few years and then puts 255 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 1: it up for auction at Christie's. For those of you 256 00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: following online, you may not have heard it. The bid 257 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:30,956 Speaker 1: was three hundred and fifty was called on the telephone 258 00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:34,196 Speaker 1: at three hundred and fifty million for Leonardo Salvador Monday 259 00:16:34,356 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: at three hundred and fifty million, Harry Christie's at three 260 00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million, and looking for another bid, Police 261 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 1: Francois at three fifty. When that painting was being sold, 262 00:16:47,716 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 1: you didn't hear whispers of doubt. It was definitely by Leonardo. 263 00:16:51,716 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: By the time it was sold. Yeah, well, they did 264 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 1: a very good publicity job, and even I was on 265 00:16:56,836 --> 00:17:00,276 Speaker 1: some panels that they organized, and you know, they rolled 266 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 1: it out beautifully and brought it to San Francisco, and 267 00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 1: Leonardo DiCaprio looked at it, and you know, it was 268 00:17:07,156 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: very well handled, not just the going through the traps 269 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: of authentication, but also the publicity traps. And then I 270 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 1: realized this wasn't because it was even Leonardo or because 271 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 1: of the inherent value of the painting. It was because 272 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: it was called the last Leonardo was the way they 273 00:17:27,836 --> 00:17:30,996 Speaker 1: marketed this at the auction. The point isn't whether or 274 00:17:31,036 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 1: not this particular Salvadroom Monday is a Leonardo. I have 275 00:17:34,396 --> 00:17:36,476 Speaker 1: no idea if a brush attached to the hand of 276 00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: Leonardo da Vinci was responsible for any of the strokes 277 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,516 Speaker 1: on the thing. The point is that no one else 278 00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 1: does either. There is no good evidence one way or 279 00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:49,636 Speaker 1: the other, only the opinions of a few refs, and 280 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:53,476 Speaker 1: the refs are clearly more compromised than you'd ideally want 281 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:56,236 Speaker 1: such a person to be. You know, you have many 282 00:17:56,316 --> 00:17:58,476 Speaker 1: ways of making money off of you get to write 283 00:17:58,516 --> 00:18:01,076 Speaker 1: the book, the catalog. If it turns out to be 284 00:18:01,116 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: a Leonardo, it's much better than saying, hey, no, no, 285 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:07,476 Speaker 1: that's just a twentieth century fake. They may or may 286 00:18:07,516 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: not have been paid directly for their opinions, but they 287 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 1: do much better for themselves if they say, yes, yes, 288 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: it's a Leonardo. Until now, this entire podcast has been 289 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:23,756 Speaker 1: about the death of the referee. Everywhere you turn you 290 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 1: can find referees under assault. They're authority questioned, their expertise doubted. 291 00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 1: But there's an exception. A certain kind of ref still 292 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:40,876 Speaker 1: retains enormous power and prestige, the authenticator, the people who 293 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:43,716 Speaker 1: are there to assure us that a thing is real. 294 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:47,156 Speaker 1: Once you start looking for these sorts of refs, you 295 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:50,996 Speaker 1: see them everywhere, and the money they can manufacture more 296 00:18:51,116 --> 00:19:00,356 Speaker 1: or less out of thin air. Let's consider the market 297 00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: for used cars just for a minute. So I buy 298 00:19:04,116 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 1: the car, I drive an off the lot. I'm not 299 00:19:06,956 --> 00:19:10,876 Speaker 1: doing anything crazy. Nothing happens to the car. Then I 300 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 1: can't sell the car for what it's worth. So that's 301 00:19:14,476 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 1: the point here. You have a case where a market 302 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 1: has disappeared. That's George Akerloff, professor of economics. He's famous 303 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 1: in part because he's married to Janet Yellen, who was 304 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:27,476 Speaker 1: the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. But he's also famous 305 00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:30,116 Speaker 1: for some thoughts he had on his own. Back in 306 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:34,236 Speaker 1: the late nineteen fifties. A seemingly obvious question crossed his mind. 307 00:19:34,676 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 1: Why does a brand new car lose so much value 308 00:19:37,196 --> 00:19:40,036 Speaker 1: the moment it leaves the lot. It's the same car, 309 00:19:40,436 --> 00:19:44,596 Speaker 1: Why should it plummet almost instantly up till then? Economists 310 00:19:44,596 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: assume that buyers and sellers come to a transaction with 311 00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:50,876 Speaker 1: basically the same information, but with things like used cars. 312 00:19:50,916 --> 00:19:55,156 Speaker 1: That's obviously not true. Maybe the buyer and seller don't 313 00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:59,236 Speaker 1: have the same information. You'd think that the seller has 314 00:19:59,356 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 1: more information than the buyer. The seller knows that that 315 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:07,556 Speaker 1: car just yesterday went over that terrible bump and then 316 00:20:07,636 --> 00:20:12,476 Speaker 1: something else went wrong, and they immediately decided, Huh, I've 317 00:20:12,476 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 1: had this car too long. I'm going to see if 318 00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 1: I can sell it to somebody else. So Akerloff wrote 319 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:24,396 Speaker 1: this paper called the Market for Lemons. It shows that 320 00:20:24,436 --> 00:20:27,076 Speaker 1: when the seller knows more than the buyer and the 321 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:31,196 Speaker 1: buyer knows that, the buyer lowers the price he's willing 322 00:20:31,236 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 1: to pay, and he lowers it to the point where 323 00:20:34,396 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: only the sellers of really crappy used cars are willing 324 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:42,356 Speaker 1: to deal, causing the buyers to lower their prices even further. 325 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 1: It becomes a vicious cycle. Under the weight of all 326 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 1: those lemons, the market simply collapses. A trusted ref can 327 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:54,916 Speaker 1: make this kind of market work by making the buyer 328 00:20:54,996 --> 00:20:58,516 Speaker 1: feel protected from whatever secrets the seller might have, by 329 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:00,796 Speaker 1: making the buyer feel like he's not getting a lemon. 330 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:05,396 Speaker 1: There's no market for a badly damage painting of Jesus 331 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:08,556 Speaker 1: Christ until a few art refs step in and say, yes, 332 00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:13,396 Speaker 1: it's Leonardo. The ref exists to restore the illusion that 333 00:21:13,436 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 1: there are no secrets. Now, you might think, why would 334 00:21:17,796 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 1: a market in need of a neutral reff wind up 335 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:24,276 Speaker 1: with a REF who actually isn't neutral? But look around 336 00:21:24,556 --> 00:21:29,476 Speaker 1: it happens a lot, just asks Steve Eisman. Although people 337 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 1: seem to know me as the big short Alah, Michael 338 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:36,836 Speaker 1: Lewis Steve Correll played Heisman in the movie as a 339 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: character with such a gift for insulting Wall Street big 340 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 1: shots that the people who work for him would go 341 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: to meetings just to watch. But the bigger point about 342 00:21:45,476 --> 00:21:48,876 Speaker 1: Heisman is that he didn't trust anyone, not even the refs, 343 00:21:49,196 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 1: and his distrust made him rich. The crash of two 344 00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 1: thousand and eight gets called a housing crisis, but it 345 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 1: was more of a trust crisis. People trusted the ratings 346 00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 1: agencies whose job was to evaluate the risk of subprime 347 00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:07,356 Speaker 1: home loans, and they will give different letters to them, 348 00:22:07,436 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: so the best rating is triple A, which means the 349 00:22:12,636 --> 00:22:17,956 Speaker 1: probability of loss is almost zero. These ratings agencies, Moody's 350 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:21,236 Speaker 1: and Standard and Poor. They were the refs whose calls 351 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 1: Eisman decided he didn't trust. And what pressures would there 352 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 1: have been on a Moody's or a standard and poor 353 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:30,756 Speaker 1: to r rate bonds triple A when maybe they weren't 354 00:22:30,796 --> 00:22:33,156 Speaker 1: going to be triple A. I mean, the pressure was 355 00:22:33,196 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 1: simply economic in the sense that you were paid multiples 356 00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:41,556 Speaker 1: more for rating that kind of stuff. So the more 357 00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 1: of the stuff that you that you would do, the 358 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 1: more money you'd make. And if you didn't do it, 359 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 1: and if you didn't do it, the guy who so 360 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 1: if Moody's said, you know what, I don't like this one, 361 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:54,236 Speaker 1: I'm not going to rate it, SMP would do it. 362 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: The whole point of Moody's in SMP was to be 363 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 1: independent referees to judge the value of the stuff that 364 00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:05,276 Speaker 1: the Wall Street banks created. They were supposed to assess 365 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 1: the loans that were inside the bonds and then give 366 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:13,236 Speaker 1: those bonds a grade. Before the financial crisis, Eisman went 367 00:23:13,236 --> 00:23:16,276 Speaker 1: to S ANDP to ask one of its executives what 368 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 1: records she got from the banks. Well, we said to her, 369 00:23:19,236 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: was when in the process of creating the securitizations, don't 370 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:26,076 Speaker 1: you get the loan tapes so that when you're doing 371 00:23:26,116 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 1: the ratings you have a better idea of what's in there. 372 00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:34,596 Speaker 1: And she said we don't have access to that. And 373 00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:36,996 Speaker 1: I said, what do you mean you don't have access 374 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 1: to that. She says, well, the investment banks won't give 375 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,196 Speaker 1: it to us, and I laugh. I said, what do 376 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:45,316 Speaker 1: you mean they won't give it to you. You're the 377 00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: ratings agencies. I had to give you what you want. 378 00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:51,476 Speaker 1: And she basically mumbled that if they had asked for it, 379 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:53,116 Speaker 1: they wouldn't get it, and then they would just walk 380 00:23:53,156 --> 00:23:56,996 Speaker 1: across the street and go to Moody's. So this surprised you. 381 00:23:57,596 --> 00:24:00,756 Speaker 1: I was shocked because it would have basically meant the 382 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:04,236 Speaker 1: ratings agencies didn't have any better data than I did, 383 00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:08,876 Speaker 1: and that stunned me. Back in two thousand and eight, 384 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:12,356 Speaker 1: when Wall Street was collapsing and Steve Eisman was making 385 00:24:12,396 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 1: a fortune, the problem was clear. The ratings agencies had 386 00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:20,036 Speaker 1: been bought and paid for by the game's most powerful players. 387 00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: The ref's lack of independence had fueled a world historic 388 00:24:25,316 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: financial crisis. If someone had told you in I don't 389 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 1: know early two thousand and nine that the ratings agencies 390 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 1: would be in the end unscathed by all this, that 391 00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 1: they would there would be no reform of the structure 392 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:40,516 Speaker 1: of the raidings agencies, and we'd be sitting here ten 393 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: years later, and that could be still being paid by 394 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:46,316 Speaker 1: the banks to rate the bonds. Would you be surprised, 395 00:24:46,516 --> 00:24:50,556 Speaker 1: I'd be stunned. Stunned, because what's interesting is that there 396 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:53,036 Speaker 1: have been massive changes that have taken place with respect 397 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: to the banks. I mean truly massive. So then you 398 00:24:56,436 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 1: have this other piece, the referees of the securities that 399 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 1: were at the heart of the problem correct, and the 400 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: referees haven't been reformed. And why do you imagine that is? 401 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 1: You know, it's one of life's great mysteries, one of 402 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:14,636 Speaker 1: life's great mysteries. Some things were reformed after the crisis 403 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 1: to fix Wall Street, but not the refs. Why would 404 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 1: this be? Why would a system prefer a bad ref 405 00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 1: to a good one? Why would it want an authenticator 406 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 1: that doesn't authenticate? Eisman can't explain it, but Georgejakarloff can. Okay, 407 00:25:32,996 --> 00:25:37,556 Speaker 1: let's take a h somebody who has a very hard 408 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: time getting a mortgage. This person is very risky, but 409 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:46,156 Speaker 1: that person's willing to pay a higher rate of interest 410 00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:50,196 Speaker 1: on that mortgage. So I buy that bad mortgage. I 411 00:25:50,236 --> 00:25:53,556 Speaker 1: don't mind the fact that the ratings agency it allows 412 00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 1: me to buy that bad mortgage, because then when there's 413 00:25:58,276 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 1: my regulators or my board of directors or my stockholders 414 00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 1: or whatever, they can't blame me for the fact that 415 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 1: I bought that bad mortage, to say, oh, you bought this, 416 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:13,156 Speaker 1: and then he's making these big profits. They can't blame me. 417 00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: That's the role for the phony ref He absolves everyone 418 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:20,476 Speaker 1: at the table of responsibility. The guy with the bad 419 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 1: credit gets alone, the bank that buys alone gets a 420 00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 1: high interest rate, the ratings agency blesses the deal. Everyone 421 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: seems to win. Here's the funny thing about referees just now. 422 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: The only place in the economy where they seem secure 423 00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: is where they've been compromised, because once they've been compromised, 424 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:43,316 Speaker 1: they're assured of at least one truly enthusiastic source of support. 425 00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: The people who control them think of it as a 426 00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:49,796 Speaker 1: rule of thumb. Find a happy referee, and you found 427 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:59,316 Speaker 1: a problem. So we have a new rule where the 428 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:02,956 Speaker 1: referees are happy and prosperous. They're probably helping to make 429 00:27:03,036 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 1: life less fair. But let's flip it around. Let's ask 430 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:11,556 Speaker 1: a question, what's a truth truly egregious example of unfairness 431 00:27:11,596 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 1: in American life, and are there any referees present at 432 00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 1: that scene? And for years and years and years, Fortune 433 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: magazine would have a cover story every year saying who 434 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 1: gets paid how much? Very neutral, and then all of 435 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:28,396 Speaker 1: a sudden, around nineteen ninety, they cover story saying it's 436 00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:31,836 Speaker 1: out of control. That's Nell Minno, who helped found something 437 00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: called i SSSS stands for Institutional Shareholder Services. It was 438 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,236 Speaker 1: supposed to be a neutral referee to prevent the people 439 00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:45,156 Speaker 1: who ran America's biggest corporations from abusing their power or 440 00:27:45,236 --> 00:27:49,396 Speaker 1: paying themselves too much. So when you've got basically the 441 00:27:49,436 --> 00:27:52,956 Speaker 1: capital's favorite magazine telling you it's out of control, it's 442 00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:55,276 Speaker 1: out of control. And that was a fraction of what 443 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 1: it is today. Back in nineteen eighty, the typical corporate 444 00:27:58,756 --> 00:28:04,956 Speaker 1: CEO was paid roughly fifteen times what is average employee made. Now, 445 00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 1: he's paid roughly four hundred times with the average worker 446 00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:13,076 Speaker 1: gets paid. CEOs looked around and they saw investment bankers 447 00:28:13,076 --> 00:28:15,916 Speaker 1: making tons of money, and they would say, these guys 448 00:28:15,996 --> 00:28:19,396 Speaker 1: work for me. I'm a captain of industry, I am 449 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:22,796 Speaker 1: moving mountains. I should be making as much as they are. 450 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 1: And so they started making just tons and tons of money, 451 00:28:26,556 --> 00:28:29,476 Speaker 1: and it just kept escalating and escalating and escalating, and 452 00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 1: these pay plans were incredibly complicated. So I was put 453 00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:36,156 Speaker 1: in a position of kind of referring CEO pay, except 454 00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:39,316 Speaker 1: it didn't have any real authority. Is there anybody in 455 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 1: the CEO pay world whose job it is to declare 456 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:49,436 Speaker 1: pay packages fair for the company? Well, in theory, yeah, 457 00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:52,996 Speaker 1: I'm Jan Corps. I am a senior managing director and 458 00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:57,916 Speaker 1: region president for Pearlmyer, which is a compensation consulting firm. 459 00:28:58,036 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 1: We get hired by companies to advise them on their 460 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 1: executive pay programs, their board of director pay, and all 461 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:08,996 Speaker 1: of the corporate governance things that go along with that. 462 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: Jan Cores is an example of a referee that simply 463 00:29:12,556 --> 00:29:17,236 Speaker 1: didn't exist before CEO pay went nuts, the CEO pay consultant. 464 00:29:17,516 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: There's a part of the whole pay questions that I 465 00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:21,876 Speaker 1: just don't get, and the part of it is the 466 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 1: idea that you need that extra you're ten million dollar man, 467 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 1: Those extra nine million dollars of carroty for making good 468 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:33,476 Speaker 1: decisions and being smart and trying hard are necessary to 469 00:29:33,516 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: get a guy who's already ambitious and a type a 470 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:41,076 Speaker 1: person to try hard, make good decisions, be smart. Nobody's 471 00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 1: offering me ten million dollars to make a good decision 472 00:29:44,356 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 1: about you know what book I write Nextually, nobody's offering 473 00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:50,356 Speaker 1: most of the people in the company. They're just assuming 474 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:54,836 Speaker 1: that everybody's going to try their hardests and make good decisions. 475 00:29:54,916 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: The idea that this particular class of human being needs 476 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 1: this giant reward in order to be smart, it's actually 477 00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 1: quite damning about that class of human being. So she 478 00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:07,756 Speaker 1: was brave to talk to me. I don't want to 479 00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:11,236 Speaker 1: misrepresent her views, but I thought that maybe she might 480 00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:14,956 Speaker 1: talk about pearl Meyer as an authenticator of CEO pay packages. 481 00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 1: I mean, in theory, the place exists to judge whether 482 00:30:18,876 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 1: the CEO's pay is a good deal for the company. Instead, 483 00:30:22,956 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 1: she wound up defending how much CEOs get paid. I 484 00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:28,516 Speaker 1: don't know, why do baseball players need that much money 485 00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 1: just because they happen to be good. Don't they love baseball, 486 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:33,636 Speaker 1: wouldn't they they play baseball for less money? They do? 487 00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 1: They do, and they they do play baseball for less money, 488 00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:40,116 Speaker 1: so and they do try hard for less money. So 489 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:44,836 Speaker 1: the answer is they don't need that much money. That yeah, 490 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:47,716 Speaker 1: that's true. But that you don't get better performance out 491 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:49,436 Speaker 1: of them because of the money. No one argues the 492 00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:51,876 Speaker 1: baseball players are better the more you pay them. In fact, 493 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:54,356 Speaker 1: the argument you get in professional sports is if you 494 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:56,396 Speaker 1: pay them a lot of money, they'll get lazy because 495 00:30:56,396 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 1: they don't need the money. They don't the money anymore. 496 00:30:58,276 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: So so exactly so, in fact, the best time to 497 00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:04,396 Speaker 1: have a baseball player is when you're not paying him 498 00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:06,356 Speaker 1: anything and you have the first six years of his 499 00:31:06,436 --> 00:31:09,476 Speaker 1: career and he's got a minimum salary and he's trying 500 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 1: to prove something. He's trying to prove something. So why 501 00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:14,036 Speaker 1: isn't it the same true of the CEO, where let's 502 00:31:14,116 --> 00:31:16,476 Speaker 1: keep him on a starvation diet until they prove something. 503 00:31:17,476 --> 00:31:20,596 Speaker 1: I was clearly making her a little uneasy. She didn't 504 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 1: have a lot of power here. She was brought in 505 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,156 Speaker 1: by companies mainly to help keep their CEO's pay packages 506 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 1: off the front page of the Wall Street Journal. And 507 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:30,356 Speaker 1: I guess the argument is is that by the time 508 00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:34,036 Speaker 1: they get to be the CEO, they're like the Aaron Rodgers, 509 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 1: right they have they've already been through their trial, they've 510 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 1: already done their proving and having gotten to that CEO level. 511 00:31:41,356 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 1: This is now where they get their reward, and they're 512 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:46,636 Speaker 1: so valuable that you need to pay them this in 513 00:31:46,716 --> 00:31:49,836 Speaker 1: order to get them to do the job. Um, yeah, 514 00:31:49,876 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yes, and no. There's not a lot 515 00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:57,996 Speaker 1: of people that can hit one hundred mile an hour fastballs. 516 00:31:58,756 --> 00:32:00,476 Speaker 1: If you can do it, you can make a lot 517 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:02,476 Speaker 1: of money. There's not a lot of people that can 518 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:07,556 Speaker 1: run ten billion dollars companies. Maybe that's true. I don't 519 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:09,836 Speaker 1: really know. They seem to be a lot of people 520 00:32:09,916 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 1: running big companies just fine, and a lot of others 521 00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:14,156 Speaker 1: who don't seem all that different from them who'd be 522 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 1: perfectly happy to do it too. I mean, how fragile 523 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:20,476 Speaker 1: must the company be to so desperately need this one 524 00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: incredibly special person to run it. But you know, it's 525 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 1: even harder to find than the incredibly special person who 526 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:29,916 Speaker 1: can run a large company, a person who's willing to 527 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:32,916 Speaker 1: referee them straight up. If you have any questions or 528 00:32:32,956 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 1: common it's regarding any of the four management proposals, please 529 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:42,596 Speaker 1: go to the standing microphone. Like Mike Neo, Mike Mayo 530 00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:45,956 Speaker 1: has spent the last thirty years analyzing American banks. He 531 00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 1: tells shareholders whether they should buy or sell their shares. 532 00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 1: He sees it as his job to say about banks. Yeah, 533 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:55,796 Speaker 1: that one really is a lemon. Back before the financial crisis, 534 00:32:56,116 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: Mayo saw that a lot of banks were making bad loans, 535 00:32:58,956 --> 00:33:01,676 Speaker 1: and he called them out publicly a long list. What 536 00:33:01,956 --> 00:33:04,076 Speaker 1: is the task of the board doing its homework to 537 00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:07,556 Speaker 1: ensure that city group has the best, most effective chairman? 538 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,316 Speaker 1: That is a very good That's Mayo at a mic 539 00:33:11,356 --> 00:33:14,596 Speaker 1: in the Great Hall of the Congress Plaza Hotel in Chicago. 540 00:33:15,276 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: There's nothing really great about the Great Hall at the 541 00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:21,196 Speaker 1: Congress Plaza Hotel. It's not even a hall. The hotel 542 00:33:21,236 --> 00:33:24,276 Speaker 1: website says that it's perfect for a reception of twelve hundred, 543 00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:26,436 Speaker 1: but really it's more like a place to throw a 544 00:33:26,476 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 1: party to which you hope no one will come. I'm 545 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:31,796 Speaker 1: a bit agnostic. I mean, I've seen I've seen the 546 00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 1: plenty of companies where the CEO and the german are 547 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: On this day in June twenty eighteen, the Great Hall 548 00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:45,236 Speaker 1: holds only a few dozen people, mainly retirees, and no 549 00:33:45,436 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 1: Wall Street analysts except Mike Mayo. Mayo buys a single 550 00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:52,596 Speaker 1: share of stock in each Wall Street bank so that 551 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:54,516 Speaker 1: he has the right to come to meetings like this 552 00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:57,556 Speaker 1: and grill the board of directors who sit on the stage. 553 00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:02,236 Speaker 1: Among the largest US banks, City had worst in class 554 00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:07,716 Speaker 1: returns among its piers in twenty seventeen. Yet City increased 555 00:34:07,716 --> 00:34:11,196 Speaker 1: the CEO paid by forty eight percent, and the grades 556 00:34:11,396 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 1: imply that's hot man has been got almost straight a's. 557 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:18,716 Speaker 1: So why did disconnect here? Well? I think you know 558 00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 1: companies at different times have to have different different jobs 559 00:34:22,836 --> 00:34:26,756 Speaker 1: to do. Would you say the City Group CEOs over 560 00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: your during your tenure of watching them, have been better 561 00:34:29,636 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 1: at running the bank or at getting themselves paid? Wow? 562 00:34:33,116 --> 00:34:35,156 Speaker 1: City Group, what an example? I mean, this is an 563 00:34:35,196 --> 00:34:38,716 Speaker 1: extreme example of CEO pay in the bank industry or 564 00:34:38,796 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 1: corporate America generally. City Group CEOs over the last two 565 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 1: decades have gotten paid about more than any other bank 566 00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:53,316 Speaker 1: CEOs at the same time they've had the absolute worst 567 00:34:53,436 --> 00:34:57,476 Speaker 1: stock price performance over that period. When was the first 568 00:34:57,516 --> 00:35:00,876 Speaker 1: time you raised, you voiced any kind of complaint with 569 00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 1: what a CEO was paid. Nineteen ninety four, I raised 570 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:09,716 Speaker 1: a concern about the CEO of KeyCorp, saying that the 571 00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:12,796 Speaker 1: CEO is getting paid too much money in conjunction with 572 00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:15,556 Speaker 1: the mergery that they were doing. And my concern was 573 00:35:15,596 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 1: they did not disclose this information in a way that 574 00:35:18,556 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 1: people could readily see it. So when you said that, 575 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:26,156 Speaker 1: how did they take it? They cut off all business 576 00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:28,236 Speaker 1: with the firm that I was working with. So when's 577 00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 1: the next time you did such a thing. Well, then, 578 00:35:30,916 --> 00:35:35,116 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen nineties I wrote about compensation in 579 00:35:35,156 --> 00:35:39,316 Speaker 1: the banking industry, and some executives were paid too much, 580 00:35:39,356 --> 00:35:41,796 Speaker 1: and some CEOs were paid too much, and I thought 581 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:46,036 Speaker 1: that was all fine until I got fired. The Wall 582 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:49,476 Speaker 1: Street analyst who does his job and speaks up about 583 00:35:49,516 --> 00:35:52,996 Speaker 1: CEO pay is the analyst who keeps losing his job. 584 00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:56,716 Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense until you realize that the 585 00:35:56,756 --> 00:36:00,196 Speaker 1: point of this ref is not to be independent. You're 586 00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:03,876 Speaker 1: on your seventh brokerage firm, my seventh brokerage firm, not 587 00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:06,236 Speaker 1: at a choice. Do young people ever come to you 588 00:36:06,276 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 1: and say, Mike, how do I be like you? And 589 00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:12,836 Speaker 1: keep my job? Every now and then, but not too often. 590 00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:14,836 Speaker 1: I think if I were to go about my career 591 00:36:14,916 --> 00:36:18,476 Speaker 1: the way I did starting thirty years ago, then I 592 00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:21,636 Speaker 1: think I'd have a hard chime keeping a job. Let's 593 00:36:21,676 --> 00:36:25,556 Speaker 1: recap step one. A market in need of a reff 594 00:36:25,956 --> 00:36:28,796 Speaker 1: just to survive because the seller might know something the 595 00:36:28,796 --> 00:36:31,876 Speaker 1: buyer does not the market for a used car, a 596 00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:34,956 Speaker 1: subprime mortgage, an old master painting, or, for that matter, 597 00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:40,276 Speaker 1: a CEO. Step two, the seller, in one way or 598 00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:46,876 Speaker 1: another captures the reff. Step three, the compromise reff becomes 599 00:36:46,876 --> 00:36:51,676 Speaker 1: a stable reff, a happy reff. He's an integral part 600 00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:54,236 Speaker 1: of the market and has enough powerful people on his 601 00:36:54,276 --> 00:36:57,876 Speaker 1: side that he makes a good living. He absolves both 602 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:02,036 Speaker 1: buyer and seller of blame. Now we arrive at step 603 00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:04,996 Speaker 1: four when you hear the first creeks and groans of 604 00:37:05,036 --> 00:37:07,036 Speaker 1: a system about to crash under the weight of its 605 00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:14,036 Speaker 1: own stupidity. So who is Bernardino Luini? Bernardino Luini had 606 00:37:14,076 --> 00:37:17,836 Speaker 1: worked primarily in North Italy and had returned to Milan 607 00:37:17,916 --> 00:37:22,356 Speaker 1: in fifteen oh eight to set up studio practice and 608 00:37:22,556 --> 00:37:26,436 Speaker 1: paint in a number of churches thereafter, mainly doing frescoes. 609 00:37:26,836 --> 00:37:31,796 Speaker 1: Matthew Landrus is a Leonardo scholar at Oxford University that period. 610 00:37:31,836 --> 00:37:35,556 Speaker 1: When he returns to Milan, he has the opportunity to 611 00:37:35,596 --> 00:37:40,316 Speaker 1: meet Leonardo da Vinci and Leonardo's studio through associates that 612 00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:44,636 Speaker 1: Leonardo had there. A funny thing happened after the refs 613 00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:47,916 Speaker 1: pronounced the Salvador Mundi a Leonardo. He went up on 614 00:37:47,916 --> 00:37:50,196 Speaker 1: the wall of the National Gallery in London in two 615 00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:54,516 Speaker 1: and eleven and some other reffs, people just as qualified 616 00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:56,796 Speaker 1: as the ones who had proclaimed the painting a Leonardo, 617 00:37:57,356 --> 00:38:00,716 Speaker 1: got to look at it for the first time. Landres 618 00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:03,516 Speaker 1: was among the experts who first saw the Salvador Mundi 619 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:06,956 Speaker 1: while it was surrounded by gawking tourists when it was 620 00:38:06,996 --> 00:38:10,756 Speaker 1: a fete a compli. When he looked at it, his 621 00:38:10,876 --> 00:38:15,756 Speaker 1: first thought wasn't of Leonardo, it was of Bernardino Luini. 622 00:38:17,116 --> 00:38:20,876 Speaker 1: Landrus suspected Bernardino Luini painted most of the Salvador Mundi, 623 00:38:21,196 --> 00:38:24,796 Speaker 1: perhaps supervised by Leonardo, though why Leonardo would have done 624 00:38:24,836 --> 00:38:27,876 Speaker 1: this without leaving any record of it is unclear. But 625 00:38:27,996 --> 00:38:31,476 Speaker 1: just because Matthew Landrus thought it doesn't mean he's happy 626 00:38:31,476 --> 00:38:34,236 Speaker 1: to say it into a microphone. Do you think there's 627 00:38:34,236 --> 00:38:37,116 Speaker 1: a chance it's entirely by Louini and Leonardo had nothing 628 00:38:37,116 --> 00:38:39,276 Speaker 1: to do with it? Oh? No, no, I would not 629 00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:42,836 Speaker 1: want to say that. Of course, there's a chance. There's 630 00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:45,196 Speaker 1: a chance it could be by all sorts of other people. 631 00:38:46,196 --> 00:38:48,316 Speaker 1: There's no hard evidence that it was even painted in 632 00:38:48,356 --> 00:38:52,316 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century. But you can see why Landrus would 633 00:38:52,356 --> 00:38:54,356 Speaker 1: no longer want to say it. There is a lot 634 00:38:54,356 --> 00:38:58,356 Speaker 1: of pressure on art historians to be careful about commenting 635 00:38:58,396 --> 00:39:02,316 Speaker 1: on paintings because people will then skew that information or 636 00:39:02,396 --> 00:39:07,716 Speaker 1: change that information into discussions of value, art markets, that 637 00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:11,316 Speaker 1: sort of thing. There's a lot of pressure on art historians. 638 00:39:12,196 --> 00:39:16,236 Speaker 1: There is, but it's all in one direction. It's not 639 00:39:16,276 --> 00:39:20,716 Speaker 1: a pressure to say no, it's not a Leonardo. It's 640 00:39:20,756 --> 00:39:24,276 Speaker 1: a pressure to say, yes, yes, it is a Leonardo. 641 00:39:25,676 --> 00:39:29,276 Speaker 1: And once someone said it, the pressure only mounts to 642 00:39:29,316 --> 00:39:31,916 Speaker 1: the point where it might affect even the most successful 643 00:39:31,996 --> 00:39:38,036 Speaker 1: graduate of the Isidore Newman School in New Orleans, Louisiana. 644 00:39:38,236 --> 00:39:41,716 Speaker 1: When I got invited by the auction house to be 645 00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,796 Speaker 1: on the panels and be part of the special shows, 646 00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:51,076 Speaker 1: I kept saying, on balance, here's what I think. But 647 00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:53,916 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to be a flamethrower at that point. 648 00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:56,036 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to say, oh, I think this whole 649 00:39:56,036 --> 00:39:59,076 Speaker 1: thing could be a total fraud. You get wrapped up 650 00:39:59,076 --> 00:40:02,476 Speaker 1: in the excitement of it. Now. Fortunately, what I wrote 651 00:40:02,476 --> 00:40:05,756 Speaker 1: in the book I wrote well before this excitement. So 652 00:40:05,796 --> 00:40:08,076 Speaker 1: I stand by every one of those words, but I 653 00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:11,196 Speaker 1: suspect on a path. I got a little bit more enthusiastic, 654 00:40:11,836 --> 00:40:13,876 Speaker 1: simply because you know you want to be part of 655 00:40:13,876 --> 00:40:19,636 Speaker 1: the party. At three hundred and seventy million dollars four 656 00:40:19,756 --> 00:40:26,956 Speaker 1: hundred minutes, the last one you will ever be able 657 00:40:26,956 --> 00:40:30,676 Speaker 1: to buy, the last one in private hands, four hundred 658 00:40:30,676 --> 00:40:33,556 Speaker 1: millionutes a pit and you knew a Saudi prince would 659 00:40:33,636 --> 00:40:41,156 Speaker 1: end up buying it. And the piece is so the 660 00:40:41,276 --> 00:40:44,316 Speaker 1: Saudi Prince made a gift of his new Leonardo to 661 00:40:44,396 --> 00:40:47,236 Speaker 1: the new museum in Abu Dhabi that has arranged to 662 00:40:47,276 --> 00:40:51,116 Speaker 1: call itself the Louver thank you according to the Louver 663 00:40:51,276 --> 00:40:55,396 Speaker 1: Abu Dhabi or any other inquiry, all of this was 664 00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:58,116 Speaker 1: all over the news and then the world moved on, 665 00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:03,916 Speaker 1: except for one piece of it, the Salvador MONDI help 666 00:41:03,956 --> 00:41:07,396 Speaker 1: you find there, Yes, I wanted to find out if 667 00:41:07,396 --> 00:41:10,996 Speaker 1: you know when the Salvator Monday, the Leonardo painting will 668 00:41:11,036 --> 00:41:15,796 Speaker 1: be on display. I'm unfortunately we do not have any 669 00:41:15,796 --> 00:41:22,236 Speaker 1: information yet, ma'am. So you don't know why the unveiling 670 00:41:22,356 --> 00:41:26,396 Speaker 1: was postponed or where where it is now? No one 671 00:41:26,436 --> 00:41:29,356 Speaker 1: seems to know. I don't know. I mean, there are 672 00:41:29,356 --> 00:41:31,556 Speaker 1: these rumors that the pictures gone missing, and there are 673 00:41:31,796 --> 00:41:34,716 Speaker 1: these newspaper reports that the original Louver in Paris has 674 00:41:34,756 --> 00:41:37,596 Speaker 1: has some small problems with the idea of it hanging 675 00:41:37,636 --> 00:41:40,436 Speaker 1: on the wall of its satellite museum, at least described 676 00:41:40,436 --> 00:41:43,436 Speaker 1: as a Leonardo. I'm sorry, man, we do not have 677 00:41:43,476 --> 00:41:46,836 Speaker 1: any information. It was postponed previously, but no, we do 678 00:41:46,916 --> 00:41:50,076 Speaker 1: not have any opidiot, anything could happen. Okay, do you 679 00:41:50,076 --> 00:41:53,196 Speaker 1: know when you might have an update? I think whatever happens, 680 00:41:53,196 --> 00:42:01,716 Speaker 1: I'm going to doubt it can anything. I'm Michael Lewis. 681 00:42:02,476 --> 00:42:05,996 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Against the Rules. Against the Rules 682 00:42:06,116 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. The show was 683 00:42:09,356 --> 00:42:13,116 Speaker 1: produced by Audrey Dilling and Katherine Giredo, with research assistance 684 00:42:13,236 --> 00:42:16,876 Speaker 1: from Zoe Oliver Gray and Beth Johnson. Our editor is 685 00:42:16,956 --> 00:42:22,636 Speaker 1: Julia Barton. Mia Lobell is our executive producer. Our theme 686 00:42:22,716 --> 00:42:26,836 Speaker 1: was composed by Nick Brittell, with additional scoring by Seth Samuel, 687 00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: mastering by Jason Gambrel. Our show was recorded by Tofa 688 00:42:32,676 --> 00:42:37,476 Speaker 1: Ruth at Northgate Studios in Berkeley. Special thanks to our founders, 689 00:42:37,556 --> 00:42:48,996 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell. Well, thank you very much. 690 00:42:52,596 --> 00:42:55,316 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you b