1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: M K. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: much for joining me for Session one eighteen of Therapy 12 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. Much of this summer we've been 13 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: talking about our relationships with other sisters as some part 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: of our Summer of Sisterhood campaign, and one of the 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: main questions that many of you had was how do 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: I find friends as an adult? So, you know, I 17 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: had to find someone who could give us the full 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: scoop on this area. Today you'll get a chance to 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: hear my conversation with Dr Marissa Franco. Dr Franco earned 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: her BS and Applied Psychology from New York University and 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: her master's and PhD in Counseling psychology from the University 22 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: of Maryland. She has worked as a professor of psychology 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: at Georgia State University and is currently transitioning to work 24 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: in policy, where she will be applying research towards vettering 25 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: people's lives. She has published twenty research articles and has 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: received research grants from the National Institute of Health and 27 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues. She's 28 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: passionate about making research accessible to the general population and 29 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: has channeled this passion into writing a book on the 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: psychology of friendship called Platonic. Dr Franco and I chatted 31 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: about the most important aspects of making friends, the characteristics 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: of a good friend, and what's really needed to sustain friendships. 33 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: If you hear anything that really resonates with you as 34 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: you listen, please be sure to share it with us 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session. 36 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 1: Dr Franco, Thank you so much for having me. Dr Joy, 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, I'm really glad. 39 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: You know, we connected online because of course, all throughout 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: the month of July, we were talking about a summer 41 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: of sisterhood and how we could really you know, do 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: some work around strengthening our relationships with other sisters and 43 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: really build on friendships. And so then you share that 44 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: this is kind of your area of expertise and you're 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: writing a book about friendship, So I definitely knew we 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: wanted to have you on the podcast of you could 47 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: share more information related to this topic. Yeah, definitely. I 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: got really excited seeing all the posts on your Twitter 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: on friendship and having sort of interactive conversations with other 50 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: people retweeting. I was like, I'm gonna read these and 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: maybe put some of these stories in my book if 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: I need to contact people. So I just I also 53 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: love like what you all are doing regarding friendship on 54 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: social media right now. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, and 55 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, it was something that I felt like needed 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: to be addressed because I don't think we often spent 57 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: enough time talking about our relationships with friends, when really 58 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: so much of our relationships with other people in terms 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: of friendship, can really be the lifeline of you know, 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: just ideally being but we don't often talk about it. 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time talking about like healthy 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, but not necessarily healthy friendships you know that 63 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: are not romantic. I totally agree with that, and actually, 64 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: as I write the preface from my book, that's actually 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: like my main motivation, like looking back at my earlier life, 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: focusing so much on romance at the expense of friendships 67 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: and thinking, you know, I don't have enough love in 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: my life when I had so much generous amounts of 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: love surrounding me for my friends. And I know, like, 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: as someone who's trained as a psychologist, that's the kind 71 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: of thinking that contributes to depressive symptoms, where you're zooming 72 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: into sort of one form of love and excluding and 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: discounting all the other forms of love that are available 74 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: to you. And so I totally agree, and I think 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: like part of my sentiment is someone who's gone through 76 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: that experience and been like, I need to turn my 77 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: energies towards all the love that I have in my 78 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: life already and recognize that it's there, put my attention 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: towards that, because like that is so fulfilling and there's 80 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: just like that one form of love that is going 81 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: to benefit people. Yeah, And I'm glad to bring that up. 82 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm wondering if in your research and 83 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: or in prep for the book, you've come across like 84 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: why that is right, Like why we spend so much 85 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: time thinking about like dating and mating and that kind 86 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: of thing and not so much time being intentional about 87 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: our friendship. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think 88 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: that this is like sort of a strong social message 89 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: that we get, and it's not something that is innate 90 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: to us to put relationships on such a hierarchy and 91 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: put romance so much higher above friends, even when we 92 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: think legally, you know, like who's able to show about 93 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: the hospital with you? Who are you able to you know, 94 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: share joint income. With all these sort of legal restrictions 95 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: on who can be considered a close relationship and having 96 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: friendships excluded from that legally makes me really think about, 97 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: like how I think institutionally as a society, we have 98 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: created all of these policies that highlight emphasize romantic relationships 99 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: and don't leave as much room for really close, meaningful 100 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: friendships to be as a part of these major life 101 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: factors like income and hospitalization, and even like you know, 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: we have a formal ritual for for marriage and closeness 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: with our romantic partners, but we don't actually have a 104 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: formal ritual to to indicate that, like this is a 105 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: really close friend and this is someone that's really important 106 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: to me. And so I think it's sort of like 107 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: a downstream consequence of that and of media that like 108 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: we really focus tend to focus more on romance and 109 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: the importance of romance, even when friendship can benefit us 110 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: so much. M really good points. And I wonder if 111 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: we will see, um, you know, especially with more kind 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: of progressive thinking maybe in legislature and you know, more 113 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: people with like lots of this kind of energy running 114 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: for offices, if we will begin to see some changes 115 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: institutionally in you know, like who's allowed to be your 116 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: emergency contact and you know, really kind of exactly exactly 117 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: going along with this whole idea of the family that 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: you get to create for yourself as opposed to the 119 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: one that you may be born into. Yes, definitely. And 120 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: I think it also kind of goes to the casualness 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: with which sometimes we approach friendships, right like that it 122 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: can kind of just happen, we don't need to put 123 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: very much effort into it, because there is this kind 124 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: of societal thinking that oh, maybe these relationships are not 125 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: as important. Yeah, Dr Jordan, Like, I really want to 126 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: touch on that because I think that this belief that I, 127 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, I've endorsed a certain times in my life 128 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: that friendships are just they just happen and they're organic. 129 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: And that's also like maybe a point of pride that 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: your friendships develop organically and you didn't have to be 131 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: intentional about them. In the research, assuming that your relationships 132 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: will happen without effort, organically or based on some sort 133 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: of friendship magic is actually relating to loneliness five years later, 134 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: whereas those who believe that friendship takes effort, we're less 135 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: lonely five years later. And the reason was that the 136 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: people that assume that friendship takes effort were a lot 137 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: more likely to put themselves out there and engage with 138 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: people socially. And so I think that's a major limiting 139 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: belief when it comes to friendships that blocks us from 140 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: initiating and being intentional about building friendships when people are 141 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: so intentional again about trying to build romantic relationships using 142 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: all these dating apps, but something about friendship makes people think, 143 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, we have to leave it up to this magic, 144 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: and that is actually hiring people's ability to build relationships 145 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: with others. Yeah, you know, but I think a lot 146 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: of it maybe comes from, you know, when you are 147 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: in gre a school and when you go into college, 148 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: like there's almost this built in, you know, just set 149 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: of people who could become friends. And so you become 150 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: friends with people who are in the same clubs and 151 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: teams with you. Are you working on a project together 152 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: and you know, So I think that's where some of 153 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: this organic piece comes from, and that these people are 154 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of always around and so they are who becomes 155 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: your friends at and I think that's a part of 156 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: why people struggle when they leave like the collegiate setting, 157 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: because then there is not necessarily this built in like 158 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: coming together of a bunch of people that you can 159 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: then choose from to be friends. Yeah, I definitely agree 160 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: with that. I think sociologists have actually worked to like 161 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: break apart what is that organist city and what are 162 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: the factors that are at play when friendships to develop organically? 163 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: And so there's a couple of ingredients and their continuous 164 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. So if we're in the 165 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: space where those ingredients are present, then friendships are more 166 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: likely to sort of develop even if we're not aggressive 167 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: about them, we're unintentional about them. And so I think 168 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: when we're in our younger years high school, college, we 169 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: are inhabiting spaces where we have continuous unplanned interaction and 170 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: shared vulnerability through our classes, through our college dorming, and 171 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: so as we get older, as we become adults, we 172 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: have less and less access to that as as sort 173 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: of natural occurrence in our lives. That might occur, for example, 174 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: at work, but work associates are often sort of smaller 175 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: than our friendship potential associates at a high school and college, 176 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: and so I think because of that, we no longer 177 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: have those ingredients. But I think one way to approach 178 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: friendship too is to think about how can I put 179 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: myself in contexts and spaces which allow for continuous unplanned 180 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: interaction and shared vulnerability. And so for those people who 181 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: really like the idea of friendships developing organically, think about 182 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: like joining an improv class, joining a language class, um 183 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: doing different things to be a part of an environment 184 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: that allows for those those specific ingredients. So can you 185 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: talk to me Dr Franco more about the idea of 186 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: it being unplanned, Like, what is the need for it 187 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: to be unplanned as opposed to making a plan to 188 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: continue to see somebody see I think the unplanned piece 189 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: is just that it's more likely to happen consistently if 190 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: it's unplanned, if it's like we we all have to 191 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: be at this class, Whereas if we leave it up 192 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: to ourselves, then it's more possible that we won't follow 193 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: up or we won't be as intentional. And I think 194 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: some people's fears come up. I think reading into this 195 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: research on friendship, the fear of rejection is so central 196 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: to being a major barrier to people's friendship development. So 197 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: it may be like you like someone you've hung out, 198 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: but now like in order to continue to meet up, 199 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: you kind of have to put yourself out there, Whereas 200 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: the unplanned interaction it sort of allows people to not 201 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: have to continue to put themselves out there and risk projection. 202 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: So it just makes things kind of easier. Got it. Okay, 203 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: So you have shared two things that I definitely want 204 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: to make sure that we dig into more because they 205 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: also came up within this month of conversations we were 206 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: having about friendships. You share it's about like vulnerability, and 207 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: this fear of rejection, which I think are huge for people, right, Like, 208 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: nobody wants to sign up to kind of have the 209 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: doors slammed in there. And so talk to me more 210 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: about some of this fear of rejection and maybe how 211 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: people can kind of move past that to become be 212 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,359 Speaker 1: in a better position to make some of these friendships. 213 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: So one of the best advice that I have for 214 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: people to make friends is to assume that everybody likes them. 215 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: And so that takes honestly actively telling yourself like people 216 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: like me in this environment, and like having that be 217 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: the new running dialogue that you create. Because the thing 218 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: is when you're fear and rejection and so social anxiety 219 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: is part and parcel with that. People who experience a 220 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: lot of social anxiety, they're always fearing rejection. What happens 221 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: is those fears, what's going on your head, affects your behaviors, 222 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: and you become more likely to withdraw, to be looking 223 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: at your phone in the entire time, to be doing 224 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: things that will actually make people reject you because you're 225 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: not engaging with them. And again, other people are afraid 226 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: of projection too, So if they try to approach you 227 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: and you're like on your phone all the time, then 228 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: they might be less likely to follow up with you. 229 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: And so that's why I think fear projection can really 230 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: inhibit us, because that fear manifests our behaviors. We engage 231 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: in the self protective behaviors that actually sabotage our ability 232 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: to make friendship. And so when we think about these behaviors, 233 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: there's sort of two types that go along with fear 234 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: of rejection. So we might engage in what's called overt 235 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: or covert avoidance. Overt avoidance is I really fear rejection, 236 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: so I'm not even gonna show up to that party. 237 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna show up to that networking event, I'm 238 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: not going to show up to that class. Covert avoidance 239 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: is when you show up to the event, but you 240 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: don't engage with people. You're completely disengage, or you're keeping 241 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: to yourself, or you're not introducing yourself to people. And 242 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: so I think when we when we target fears of 243 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: rejection and making ourselves feel more secure and reminding ourselves 244 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: that like other people like us and that that be 245 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: our new running belief, then we're allowed to target that 246 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: overt avoidance to get us to show up and also 247 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: that covit avoidance, which means when we get there, we 248 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: are going to be intentional about introducing ourselves to people 249 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: and engaging with people. Oh I like this, Okay, So 250 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: I mean and we've talked about this, I think even 251 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: in previous episodes, about even just giving yourself a time 252 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: limit to go to a certain place. So you're feeling 253 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: really anxious about this party, can you go for just 254 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: an hour and interact with people, and then if it 255 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: feels too overwhelming, then you've done your kind of due diligence. 256 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: You at least got there and try to interact with people. Yeah. 257 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: I love that idea, I think too. Like, I just 258 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: want to mention that the research shows that we're actually 259 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: really bad at predicting our own likability. So like, the 260 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: biggest predictor of people's ratings of their own likability is 261 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: their last social interaction. So people use their last social 262 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: interaction to indicate how likable, how charming they are. And 263 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: so you, I think what really underlies the social anxiety 264 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: is the fear of not being enough or that other 265 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: people are going to dislike you. But we're actually really 266 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: really bad judges of that, And I share that information 267 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: to encourage people to challenge that. Like, the thoughts that 268 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: you're having about your self worth, about your worthiness and 269 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: interactions are actually, like, really not very correlated with how 270 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: other people actually experience you. And the only time that 271 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: social anxiety is related to other people like to be 272 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: less is when that social anxiety manifests as behavior. So 273 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: even if you're feeling these things, if your thoughts are 274 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: making you feel unworthy, if you engaging behaviors like engaging 275 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: with other people, introducing yourself to other people, being warm 276 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: for it to other people, then people actually don't suspect 277 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: that you're socially anxious at all. So let me just 278 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: back us up for a minute and then make sure 279 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: that we're clear on what you're saying. So you're saying 280 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: that we are not usually the best judges of whether 281 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: people like us as much, and that people typically do 282 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: like us much more than we sometimes think in our hands, Well, 283 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that people necessarily like that's just that 284 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: we're really off. We're really yes, But it pays for 285 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: the deep ault assumptions for us to have to be 286 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: the others like us, because then that will encourage us 287 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: to put ourselves out there more. Okay, got you, But 288 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: I want to also then bring you know, the cultural 289 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: peace in because I think specifically as black women, I 290 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: think again, societally and culturally, there is a lot of 291 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, black women are too loud, or it's tough 292 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: to get along with you, or all of these things 293 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: right that I think a lot of us are also 294 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: bringing into social situations. And so I'm curious about any 295 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: thoughts you have about how to like then dismantle those 296 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: kinds of beliefs when we are often fed dead, you 297 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: know what. I think that's a really great point. I 298 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: think a lot of us carry like baggages, baggage around racism, 299 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: and we're censoring ourselves. And because of that, like censoring yourself, 300 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: what the research shows is that takes like energy from 301 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: your brain, so you're less likely to do other things 302 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: and be able to like put yourself out there because 303 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: you're so focused on the self censor and so that 304 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: that just takes away from your resources in terms of 305 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: being able to connect with people. And it's hard, I 306 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: think because I want to like share sort of the 307 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: balanced truth and that like you know, like it pays 308 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: again to like assume that people are going to treat 309 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: you as well as possible and that you're going to 310 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: be a firm but again, like that's not always the 311 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: reality for black women or black people who often you know, 312 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: face projection and these race based stereotypes, and so I 313 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: think it's like holding both truths. I think it's part 314 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: of it is like still assuming positivity, but being able 315 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: to have like what's called a secure base, which is 316 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: when you don't receive that positivity out in the world, 317 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: that you have people that you can come back to 318 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: to replenish yourself where you feel connected. Maybe that's what 319 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: your sisters, you know, like somewhere where you feel like 320 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm worthy and I feel valued and this feels really easy, 321 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: and like that again helps you to build up I guess, 322 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: the wherewithal to go out into a social world that 323 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: is not always kind to you as a person of africanness. 324 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: Set m hmmm. Yeah, so thinking, you know, like one 325 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: bad interaction does not mean that you are a bad person. 326 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: It could just mean that you and that person don't click. 327 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that nobody will like you. Yeah, Dr Joey, 328 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking about this so much, like 329 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: what is the key to like making friends with people, 330 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: and I don't I think us using the terms liking 331 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: not liking is not accurate or like in good service. 332 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: I think what it's more about is a two min 333 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: and a twment is about, like, I'm anticipating what another 334 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: person's needs are regarding friendships, and I am able to 335 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: meet that, like in a tune relationship work. So for example, 336 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: like maybe someone's a new mom and they really want 337 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: to focus on their kids and family and they don't 338 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: have a lot of time to make friends right now, 339 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: and so you might want to make friends with them, 340 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: but that might be miss a tune with what their 341 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: needs are in this given time, right, so the timing 342 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: may be off. And so like for some of us, 343 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: maybe we're new to a city and we're trying to 344 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: make these friends and we're reaching out to people a lot, 345 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: like other people in those cities already have established friendship groups, 346 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: so they're sort of less likely to want to hang 347 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: out all the time. And so I think it's really 348 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: about like more about a two months than like dislike 349 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: in terms of like, what are people looking to add 350 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: to their life right now? And do this do our 351 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: needs match what other people are looking for as well? 352 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: And so I think that's really one of the strong 353 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: predictors of whether we'll be able to continue to build 354 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: a friendship. Okay, so you're suggesting kind of being more 355 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: focused on is there something that seems likely that I 356 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: could add to this person's life and vice versa at 357 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: this given time exactly, not like, oh, I guess I'm 358 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: not likable or I guess they don't like me because 359 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: they're not able to hang out with me right now. Like, 360 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: just realize, like there's so many factors that go into 361 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: whether someone is willing to build a relationship or a 362 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: friendship with you that are so outside of who you 363 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: are as a person. And usually people make judgments about 364 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: friendships pretty early on, and so they don't even really 365 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: know you and like the depth of who you are, 366 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: and so maybe you're someone who like shows more of 367 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: yourself over time. And so what I'd really encourage people 368 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: to do is like again challenging their limiting beliefs around 369 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: when they feel like they're rejected, that that's actually just 370 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: like a missachievement or an incompatibility at this time, got it? 371 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: And I think you know that often comes up in 372 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: friendships that are already formed, right like, you know, so 373 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: you've been friends with somebody for years now, and then 374 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: she becomes a new mom, and then maybe has less time, 375 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: and you know, things kind of get off kilter. But 376 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: then you have the history of that relationship, to me, 377 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: may be able to kind of withstand that kind of 378 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: a change, whereas you might not with the new person. Yes, 379 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: Dr Joy, definitely, definitely, definitely, And I think what you're 380 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: alluding to is backed up by the research, and that 381 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: the research shows that so what a relationship has more costs, 382 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: it basically like it negatively affects the relationship. For example, 383 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: like if I have to commute a long way to 384 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: see you, then we're less likely to be friends. But 385 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: if you're be close, costs are way less likely to 386 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: affect the continuance or the development of the relationship. So 387 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: like at the beginning, it's sort of more of a 388 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: fragile period, and that if things if a little if 389 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: a smaller thing goes wrong, it can have more of 390 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: a stronger ramification on the relationship, whereas like once your 391 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: friendship is ready to developed and set, your relationship will 392 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: be a lot stronger and more fortified, so that if 393 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: like conflict happens and negative friends happen, you'll be a 394 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: lot more likely to be able to work it out 395 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: and continue their relationship. Oh, Dr Franco, So are you 396 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: saying that kind of early in a relationship. Most of 397 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: us are probably doing like this cause benefit analysis unfortunately 398 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: kind of yes, and it's it's honestly because we don't 399 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: know someone holistically. I think this happens in dating too, right, 400 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: where it's like I don't know, like I just remember, 401 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: like I have a friend, for example, and like one 402 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: of our friends was like licking his fingers after eating nachos, 403 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: and she was like, you know, he's just himself. He 404 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: does him, he does whatever he wants, and I just 405 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: really appreciate that about him. And she goes on a 406 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: date with this guy and he does the same thing 407 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: and she's like I was just so grossed out by it, 408 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: like it was so disgusting. And so I think, like 409 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: I just share that story because I think it reflects 410 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: how like we relate to the same action differently when 411 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: it's someone that we're close to and when someone we 412 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: built a relationship with, it because we see them holistically 413 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: and we see like we see like that even if 414 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: they have this like flaw to them, and that that's 415 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: part of like a larger like a larger group of qualities, 416 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: many of which we like, so it just doesn't matter 417 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: as much. And I think, you know that also helps 418 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: to take some of your ego and some of this 419 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: like connecting self worth to friendship because in a lot 420 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: of ways, it's a numbers game and it's a time game, 421 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily so much about who you are 422 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: exactly like, It's really about so many factors. And I 423 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: think the people who win in this friendship game in 424 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: terms of like the ones who really develop the closest 425 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: and most relationships or whatever feels most fulfilling for you, 426 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: is like the people who are able to persist. And 427 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: again that's that's just involves overcoming some of these barriers 428 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: related to like fears of rejection, difficulties with putting yourself 429 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: out there, lack of like engagement or intentionality about initiating 430 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: with people. Okay, so I want to go back to 431 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: the part of kind of putting yourself out there, because 432 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: again this came up a lot in odd discussions about 433 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: people just being afraid of being vulnerable. Maybe they have 434 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: been burned in relationships in the past or have had 435 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: some you know, traumatic experiences around kind of putting themselves 436 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: out there and being being thrown in their faces. So 437 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: what kinds of suggestions you have related to that? How 438 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 1: do you become more vulnerable, especially in a new friendship. Okay, 439 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: I love that you brought this question up because reading 440 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: the like this self disclosed myself in this question. Reading 441 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: the research on friendship has really changed my own engagement 442 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: with like self disclosing and vulnerability. I think, like for me, 443 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm always someone who loves to listen to other people, 444 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 1: you know, trained as a psychologist, and thinking that like 445 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: if I share myself, I'm going to burden someone or 446 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: turn them off. But like, what the research actually shows 447 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: is like self disclosure on both ends is the life 448 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: blood of relationships, like disclosing things about yourself and welcoming 449 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: disclosures from other people. So if you're similar to how 450 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: I was or maybe what I'm still working through and 451 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: thinking that like you have to be evault, you're gonna 452 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,239 Speaker 1: burden other people. Your people aren't gonna like you if 453 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: you disclose stuff about yourself. That's actually causing harm to 454 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: your relationships and your ability to build intimacy with other people, 455 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: And so I think just sort of fact checking with 456 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: helpful for me in terms of like thinking about vulnerability 457 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: and how share vulnerability. And I think to like, I 458 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: also want to contextualize this socially, so like people back 459 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: going this that we've been taught not to trust people 460 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: to be more cautious because of our history, because like 461 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: those so that orientation was very adaptive given our history, 462 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: And so we have to think through like for every 463 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: like strategy that we're engaging in, behavior that we're engaging 464 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: and what are the benefits, but also what are the costs, 465 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: like not trusting other people sure them they benefit us, 466 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: and that we might be less vulnerable to being exploited, 467 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: but there's all so like strong cost to that, and 468 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: that we have less intimate relationships, we feel less close 469 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: to people. Like intimacy is actually based on the Latin 470 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: word innermost so there really is no intimacy without vulnerability 471 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: and being able to share yourself. So you know, I 472 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: just really encourage people to be open to sharing more 473 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: of themselves because that is sort of the vital blood 474 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: of relationships. But is there aligne Dr Franco, Because I 475 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: think that there is in terms of like sharing and 476 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: then oversharing, yes, And I think that this is a 477 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: part of where people struggle with is like how much 478 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: do I share to let you know me? But how 479 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: do I not share so much that I'm like overwhelming? 480 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: That is a great point and I think that actually 481 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: is reflected by the research. UM. I remember reading the 482 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: study that was like when people disclose about like their 483 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: history of childhood abuse and trauma and initial interaction, people 484 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: were actually turned off, whereas when they disposed on like 485 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: they're like dreams and aspirations and initial interaction, people were 486 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: turned on and they wanted to connect with them more. 487 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: And so I think there definitely is a limit. And 488 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: so we can think about self disclosure as a range 489 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: or a spectrum, and so like in self disclosing, for 490 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: you just to disclose any of your internal world, any 491 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: of your thoughts or experiences, any of how you might 492 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: relate to the things that are happening around you that 493 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: might be distinct from the people around you. And so 494 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: that's the sort of what I would encourage, like initially, 495 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: like that form of self disclosure, like what was your 496 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: unique thoughts in relationship to what's going on around you? Um, 497 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: how did you relate to this experience that you might 498 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: have gone through with someone else, and that is I 499 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: think where self disclosure begins, and then it deepens as 500 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: we talk about, you know, our childhood struggles and sort 501 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: of deeper, darker size or deepest darkst secrets as we 502 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: used to say, and so like, I think, first of all, 503 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: like the whole reason I should say that self disclosure 504 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: building relationships is because when we self disclosed to someone, 505 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: the assumption is that we trust them and we like 506 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: them and we feel close to them. And so people 507 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: take that to me like, oh, this person is self 508 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: disclosing to me, so they like me and that makes 509 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: me feel closer to them. But when you are indiscriminate 510 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: about self disclosing, people don't feel like they earn your 511 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: self disclosure, and they don't feel like you're necessarily disclosing 512 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: because you like them, maybe because you like neat someone 513 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: to that too, and so like because of that, I 514 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: think hyper self disclosure doesn't make people feel like they 515 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: sort of earned this closest to you that has merited 516 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: self disclosure in the same way. That is such a 517 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: good point, Dr Franco. I love that you have like 518 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: all of this research to kind of share the backup 519 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: all of this, right, you know, which I think is 520 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: also great because it just shows you how differently like 521 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: we operate as psychologists, right, Like, this is clearly your 522 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: world in terms of the research, whereas i'm, you know, 523 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: much more on the practitioner side and so do some 524 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: of the research, but not nearly as much of this 525 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: research as you are. Um, well that's what I'm here 526 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: from the fund. You know, it's just fascinating to me. 527 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: But I also think a lot of times what happens 528 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: when people get into this oversharing. It feels like it's 529 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: a like, let me lay all these cars out on 530 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: the table so that you know what you're getting into 531 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: and if you will like me, then maybe we can 532 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 1: move forward. But actually you're kind of doing yourself a 533 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: disservice by leading with that too soon, right, And like 534 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: we know that, like it's human nature for again for 535 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: it to be more of a cost benefit thing at 536 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: the very beginning. So we can't start witness testing people 537 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: before we build relationships with them, Like why should they 538 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: continue to like us when we've over disclosed, Like we 539 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: haven't built a foundation of a relationship for them to 540 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: do that, And so I think a lot of people, 541 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: specifically people who fear rejection are more vulnerable to engaging 542 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: in these like lipness tests, Like I'm going to test 543 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: this relationship by doing this and seeing how it comes out, 544 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, just thinking about perspective taking 545 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the other person, like how costs work out in relationships 546 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: for us to know how much disclose and what is 547 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: appropriate to disclose. Yeah, And and I think it's important, 548 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: you know, especially because I think a lot of that 549 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: kind of lit miss testing develops as a trauma response, 550 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: right that you know, you've had bad experiences or traumatic experiences, 551 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: and so then you're trying to test whether this is 552 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: going to be another one. And while some of that 553 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: I think has been a survival skill for a lot 554 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: of people, you can see why it might not work 555 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: out long term, because then it can be a put 556 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: off for for new people. Yeah, I think you're you know, 557 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: you're exactly right, And I really appreciate you bringing in 558 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: that perspective in terms of like what traumaas to people 559 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: and how trauma affects their internet personal relationships, because I 560 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: think trauma fundamentally makes people feel unworthy and it just 561 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: makes it really hard to connect with people when you're 562 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: feeling that way, and it's really it's really a lot 563 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: scarier when you're going through a trauma. And so I 564 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: think because of that, like there are specific vulnerabilities in 565 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: this process that are really difficult for people that have 566 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: gone through something traumatic. Mm hmmmmmmm. So when we were 567 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: talking before, Dr Franco, you also share that making good 568 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: friends is not really about being charismatic and witty. It's 569 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: really about loving and taking care of other people. Um, 570 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: And so I want to hear more about how you 571 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: can do that but also respect boundaries because I think 572 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: sometimes again especially as black women, we get into this 573 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: caretaking peace and then realize that the relationship has not 574 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: been reciprocal. So how do you do that in a 575 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: way that shows that you care but that's still you know, reiprocal. Yes, 576 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: So there are so many fascinating things that are going 577 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: out in my mind that I want to share about 578 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: this topic. So there's this theory called equity theory, and 579 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: what it indicates is that people don't like to under 580 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: benefit from their friendships. They don't like to give more 581 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: than they get, but they also don't like to over benefit. 582 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: They don't like to get more than they received, because 583 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: that makes them feel really guilty and really uncomfortable and 584 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: like they owe use something. And so we might feel 585 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: that like if we give, give, give, that will help, 586 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: is still a stronger relationship, when actually, if we're overgiving, 587 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: we put the plate people in a place where they 588 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: feel kind of uncomfortable. And so I think that's really 589 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: important to keep in mind. I think there are ways 590 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: to give that don't feel boundary crossing. And so one 591 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: of the most important aspects of building friendships is just 592 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: being able to affirm other people. Tell them how much 593 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: you appreciate them, how what they said touch you, how 594 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: it's stirve you, how you love these qualities or characteristics 595 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: about them. Affirmation of other people is one of the 596 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 1: keys to friendship. If you ever, like heard an interview 597 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: with Oprah, you will see how much she affirms people, 598 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: and like, I think she's like one of the biggest 599 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: friendship relationship building experts. She'll tell you about Baha moments, 600 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: the tweetable moments, and so as I read these research, 601 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, I see how much people feel so safe 602 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: around her because she is so good at just affirming 603 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: people and affirmation. So what the research says again, is 604 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: that there's different things that are likely to build the 605 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: relationships at different time points. And so, like we said, 606 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: with intimacy, you know, more deeper intimacy being more appropriate 607 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: later in the relationship. But what the research shows actually 608 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: that affirmation of other people that bonds the relationship no 609 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: matter what stage it it is at. So even when 610 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: you're just making friends or when you're further into relationship, 611 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: affirmation it's always food and nourishment for any relationship. And 612 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: so I think when you think about giving in terms 613 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: of not just you like having to give up all 614 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: your time for someone or having to do all these 615 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: things for them, but just being able to affirm people, 616 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: that's always a safe way to give. So I think 617 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: instead of thinking about what can I do or what 618 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: can I buy to kind of continue this friendship, it 619 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 1: really is just about affirming the the other person just 620 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: as a person exactly. And so something I want to 621 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: touch on too, because I was listening to your your 622 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: discussion earlier, like the black superwoman approach and how you know, 623 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: as black women were so primed to give to other 624 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: people and to be so nurturing and to like really 625 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: be considerate of other people around us. And so what 626 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: the research calls this is communalism or mutualism, and people 627 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: that are more communal and mutual they do have better relationships, 628 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: they're happier, and other people are happier around them. But 629 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: the caveat is what's called unmitigated communalism, and that's when 630 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: you are giving to other people at a cost to yourselves. 631 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: And when that happens, communalism doesn't benefit people as much. 632 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't make people happier, it doesn't make the people 633 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: their relationship happier. It makes the relationship better overall, but 634 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't provide as much benefits as when we are communal. 635 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: But also considering ourselves, so there is a point at which, 636 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: which we talked about right, there is a point at 637 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: which you're doing too much is not good for either 638 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: you are the other person exactly. And like you know, 639 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: like I said with equity theory, like when you do 640 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: too much, you activate a sense of guilt or discomfort, 641 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: or people are actually really uncomfortable when you give to 642 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: them and they're not able to give back. And so 643 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: like when we overgive, we can actually make the other 644 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: person more uncomfortable and also feel like it's at a 645 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: greater cost to yourself. And like, I don't know about 646 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: other people, but when I give to a lot a 647 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: lot to another person and they're not reciprocating, I also 648 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: get really frustrated and I'm like, why aren't you reciprocating? 649 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: And I think you know what something to do, like 650 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: if you notice that that's happening, is to be able 651 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: to pull back and realize it's actually gonna benefit this 652 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 1: friendship if I give less. Yes, that actually came up 653 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: in the conversation during the month, you know, the summer sisterhood, 654 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: in that people expect other people to kind of be 655 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: the kinds of friends that they are. But there's never 656 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: been a conversation about any of these expectations. Right, So 657 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: you're thinking, I'm going up for this person. I'm there 658 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: and there time I need, I'm there to drive them 659 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: to the airport, like I do all of these things, 660 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: and then the expectation is that this other person will 661 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: do these same things for me, But the other person 662 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: is not even aware that that is the expectation. That's 663 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: a really good point because they think. Another thing about 664 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: the research that blew my mind. The best predictor of 665 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: whether you get support from other people is actually whether 666 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: you ask for it, So not whether you give the support, 667 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: but whether you ask for you asked for it, whether 668 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: you actually asked for it, and so like, and that 669 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: actually asking for support actually makes relationships more intimate. So 670 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: you may think that, oh, if I ask for this 671 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: for someone, I'm going to harm the relationship. I may 672 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: be asking for one. But once you like performing a 673 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: relationship with someone and you ask for their support, again, 674 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: that's sort of like identity affirming for them, like they're 675 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: willing to turn towards me, they must really like me. 676 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: And so asking for support for someone actually makes your 677 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: relationship closer, and it also makes you more likely to 678 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: get support in the future, whereas people that don't ask 679 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: for a relationship they end up having less intimacy in 680 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: their relationships and they're less likely to get support from 681 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: in the future. God it wow. I definitely want to 682 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: make sure we bookmark that and people are paying attention 683 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: to that, because I do think a lot of people 684 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: think the way to get support, like the whole idea 685 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 1: of to get a good friend, you have to be 686 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: a good friend, and so the expectation is that if 687 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: I do these things, they will do these things in return, 688 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: where the research just sounds like really suggest that you 689 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: have to ask for these things. You have to ask 690 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: for it. I think it's secret to get in support. 691 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: But I also want to say, like, related to what 692 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: you brought up around trauma, who is most likely to 693 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: ask for support? It's we think it's maybe like the 694 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: people that are most desperate or like don't have their 695 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: ship together, But what it actually is is the people 696 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: that feel the best about themselves is the people that 697 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: have higher self esteem, the people that feel like they 698 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: are in more control of their environments, they are the 699 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: people that are most likely to ask for support. And 700 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: so if we're consistently not asking for support, I think 701 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: it behooves us to think a little bit about our 702 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: identities and what might make us feel not worthy of 703 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: getting support from other people. And so again, part of 704 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: this is cultivating that sense of security within yourself that 705 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: you're worth something, you have something to benefit people, and 706 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: because of that, you are more optimistic that if you 707 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: ask for support, people actually want to give it to 708 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: you because you know and understand that you're worthy. And 709 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: so yeah, I also just sort of wanted to highlight that, 710 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: like there is a bit of self work that goes 711 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: into the behavior of being able to ask for her Yes, 712 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: that is a great point, Dr Franco, and I think 713 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, it kind of goes back to some other 714 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: conversations we've had here on the podcast, just about one 715 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: going back to the whole strong black woman thing, but 716 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: also connected to this idea that like, I am the 717 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: one in my family who has it all together and 718 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: there is nobody else to ask because I'm the one 719 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: who's kind of holding it together for everybody else. So 720 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: I think for some people it may feel like a 721 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: reality that there is nobody else to ask for support. Yeah, 722 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I certainly like get and understand that. I 723 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: think like, even as I offer the and some like 724 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: I also want to empathize with people that this is 725 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: actually really difficult to do. Um. So I really appreciate 726 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: you Dr Joy in terms of mentioning that, like, it's 727 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: also really hard for people to implement these tips. And 728 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: I think, what are really going for in my book 729 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: The Tonic, It's like, instead of it being like, oh, 730 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: these are all the hot tips friendship, it's also exploring 731 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: our underlying psychological architecture and how that makes us more 732 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: or less likely to engage in these things that really 733 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: benefit relationships. M yeah, so I think again it could 734 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: be a both and right, like this is what the 735 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: research suggests, but also looking at what is your personal 736 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: history and how might it be difficult for you to 737 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: do some of these things that may actually make you 738 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: or allow you to have more fulfilling friendships exactly, Like 739 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: it's it starts with and like you know, I feel 740 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: like I've seen those I don't know and like sayings 741 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: before like you have to love yourself before others can 742 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: love you. And you know, I kind of disagree with 743 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: that because I think we love ourselves through other people 744 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: loving us. But I also see how if you love yourself, 745 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: you engage in more behaviors that are fruitful for your relationships, 746 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: such as like not assuming rejection because when we do 747 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: assume rejection, we're actually more likely to be judgmental of 748 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: the other person because now there's someone who has projected us. 749 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: And so like there's just ways that like if you 750 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: come to a place where you're at peace with yourself, 751 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: you know your worth, you are able to again like 752 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: do things like give people more grace when things so 753 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: when they don't like fulfill your expectations and have more 754 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: perspective taking for people, because when you're in like a 755 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: lot of acute pain around things and you're really suffering, 756 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: it's really hard to perspective take and understand that, like, 757 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: this is another person with their own needs and their 758 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: own life that's going on, and so like because of that, 759 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: you can sort of be more scornful or take it 760 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: more personally when things don't go right in relationships. And 761 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: so I think what underlies a lot of these really 762 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: positive friendship behaviors is developing some sense of security with yourself. 763 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for that. So something else kind 764 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: of going back to our earlier conversation around um, how 765 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: much focused there is on how we have healthy romantic relationships, 766 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: something else that I think is often missing in terms 767 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: of friendship stuff is like how to have conversations with 768 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: friends when things are not going well, or how you 769 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: can acknowledge some of these feelings of guilt or shame 770 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: that pop up in our friendship. Is there anything that 771 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: you've run across in the research that talked about like 772 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: how we might be able to cultivate that kind of 773 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: space better in our friendship. Yes, So this is another 774 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: hot tip from the research. I love the research. I 775 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: love the research so much, but just because it's just 776 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: like so much wisdom to be of, like, oh, this 777 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: is so helpful. I get so much wisdom. But so 778 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: engaging in conversations around a conflict can actually make your 779 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: relationship stronger. So I think people's fears when they engage 780 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: in these direct conversations about how their relationship is going 781 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: is that it's going to really damage the relationship or 782 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: the other people person is going to end up projecting them. 783 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: But there are ways that you can engage in conflict 784 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: and it actually leads you for your relationship to be stronger. 785 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: And part of that is just expressing your truth and 786 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: not blaming the other person. So for example, like you know, 787 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: I did feel kind of hurt when you didn't show 788 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: up at my recital or something like that, um, instead 789 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: of saying, like, you know, it was really shitty you 790 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: that you didn't show up. You're my recital and it's 791 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: really like a problem that you did. That, like just 792 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: focusing and owning like our own feelings with those eye statements, UM, 793 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: and expressing and staying at the level of emotion, like 794 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: not getting caught up in the like you did this, 795 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 1: you did that, but like how did that make you feel? 796 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: And sharing your feelings without blaming the other person, And 797 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: this is really hard. I will say, like, you should 798 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: not do this when you are really angry at your friend, 799 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: when when they just slighted you. And it's really hard 800 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: to regulate your emotions because you want to be in 801 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: a place where you can be calm, because when you 802 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: feel really angry, you're more likely to blame people, and 803 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: it's gonna be harder to have that conversation without being liment. 804 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: So I would say, like, pause, get to a place 805 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: where you know, like your emotions have come down a bit, 806 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: and then engage and use those eye statements in terms 807 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: of like how, um, how things made you feel and 808 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: share your perspective. Yes, And we talk about this of 809 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: course a lot in therapy to like a lot of times, 810 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: um clients will be afraid to say that they feel 811 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: like the therapist has offended them in some way or um, 812 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,439 Speaker 1: you know, something they suggested wasn't quite the best fit, 813 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: and so they're afraid to kind of come back to 814 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: the therapist and say that. But actually, those are the 815 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: moments I live for as a therapist, right especially for 816 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: somebody who has difficulty maybe kind of expressing their needs 817 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: and wants, or has issues with authority or something like that. 818 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: That is a golden opportunity for me to kind of 819 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: affirm you know, what a big deal this was for 820 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: you to come back and tell me this, and how 821 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: can we create more of this in your life? And look, 822 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: this doesn't rupture our relationship. I still value you as 823 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: a client and I appreciate that you felt safe enough 824 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: here to share something that didn't quite fit for you. Yes, 825 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: because I think like part of being a good friend 826 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: is honestly wanting the best for our friends, like being 827 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: able to be really happy in our friends success, Like 828 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: that's what makes for really close relationships, and there are 829 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: no there are caveats to that when you might be 830 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: contributing to some of your friend's distress. You know, wanting 831 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: the best for your friend is being able to take 832 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: seriously like, oh I did something that harmless relationship, and 833 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: like I want my friend to be happy. I don't 834 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: want my friend to be in distress. And so being 835 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: able to take that in as an invitation to build 836 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: a closer relationship with someone. I think when you're on 837 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: the receiving end, of these conversations rather than as attack 838 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: or as a threat, but like an invitation from the 839 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: other person to be able to get closer to you 840 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: and in the service of your goal as a close friend, 841 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: for your friend to live their happiest and healthiest and 842 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: most of a filling life. I love it. I cannot 843 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: wait for this book, Dr Franco. So I want I'm like, 844 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: where can we get this advanced copy? Um? So I 845 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: want to. I would like for you to tell us 846 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: more like about what we can expect. So the name 847 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: of the book is platonic, yes, yes, so what can 848 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: we expect to kind of get there beside the gyms 849 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,760 Speaker 1: that you have dropped now? So Dr Joy, honestly, I'm 850 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,919 Speaker 1: trying to so when I I love like self help 851 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: looks just to disclose about myself, But I think like 852 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: an issue that I have with them is that the 853 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: helper often positions themselves as someone who's above it all, 854 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: who doesn't actually face the problems and issues that are happening, 855 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: like they've solved friendship and you know, like friendship is 856 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: so many things. It is like existential dread around, loneliness, isolation, belonging, acceptance, affirmation, 857 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, all these really deep, powerful human things that 858 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: are never solved. And so for me, like, as I'm 859 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: writing this book, I'm trying to be honest and vulnerable 860 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: about myself and to share like, Okay, I've learned this 861 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: in the research, and I've tried to apply it in 862 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: my own life and hear her some of the hangups 863 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: and here's where things work. And so I think it's 864 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: it's the research, but it's also that integrated with like 865 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: my real world experience. I'm gonna be I haven't gotten 866 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 1: this far yet, but I'm gonna be interviewing people, conducting 867 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: focus groups, doing things like that, just to say that, Like, 868 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: it's one thing to read about something and to understand things, 869 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: um in sort of a knowledge way, but I think 870 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: it's a completely different act to be able to engage 871 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: in that experientially in your life. And so like just 872 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: knowing information isn't gonna help your friendship unless you're intentional 873 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: about applying these things to your life. And so I 874 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: want to sort of be a model for my readers 875 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: and like, this is what it's gonna be like when 876 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: you actually apply this information to your life. I love it. Okay, 877 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: So do we have at all like a date where 878 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: it might be coming out or we just will have 879 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: to stay tuned. Oh, it's gonna be a long long 880 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: time after Drey. I just the proposal today, Okay, Okay, 881 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: so we're early on. I've done all the research at 882 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: this point, but like, yes, I'm constructing the I finished 883 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: the proposal, and so I'm thinking like hopefully pending the 884 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: process of getting an agent slash publisher. This might take 885 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: like about a year. Got you, Okay, So audience, please 886 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: stay tuned. Bestseller that she will read this taunt us. 887 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. Um, you've already shared lots of research 888 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: for us, and I love that you have shared the 889 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: research in a way that is so like, you know, 890 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: non jargony, like anybody can understand what going on. Um, 891 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 1: are there other books or resources that you have come 892 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: across that you think would be helpful for people to 893 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: check out related to friendships? Um? Yes, I'm gonna share 894 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: with your readers the books that have changed my life. Um. 895 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: So one of the I think the most important books 896 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: about relationships that I've ever read is Bell Hooks book 897 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: All about Love, and so she talks about how love 898 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: is helping other people express their themselves more deeply in 899 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: the ways that they are living and supporting their spiritual growth. 900 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: And I was like, dam Like, love is not dominance, 901 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: Love is not control, Like that is that love. Love 902 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: is like helping somebody express their truth. That is the 903 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: most beautiful thing I've ever heard. So I would definitely 904 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: recommend All About Love by belt Hooks Um. In terms 905 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: of another book, so hesitant to offer this book because 906 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: it's actually about romantic relationships, but I also think that 907 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: it's really really good and can help people understand like 908 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: some of their baggage around relationships, and it also applies 909 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: to friendships. And so that book is called Attached by 910 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm nearly being Um, yeah, that's that's a really good one. 911 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: What I would also suggest is if folks are having 912 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: trouble with like being angry or being hostile towards other people, 913 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 1: are not trusting other people, or you know, really want 914 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: to be a better friend, there's this meditation called Loving 915 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: Kindness Meditation. You can just like google it on YouTube, 916 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: and it's really really helpful for like opening yourself up 917 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: more to relationships and so, like, if someone really wants 918 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: to engage in the practice of priming themselves to be 919 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: more open to building relationships, and I would definitely recommend 920 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: that they try loving kindness meditation? Is that Tara rock stuff? 921 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: I think Tara Brock does do one type of loving 922 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 1: kindness meditation, but there's a lot of other folks who do. Okay, 923 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: so this is just a general meditation. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 924 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: like connecting to others humanity got you, okay? Anything else? 925 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, I really didn't want to share this last point. 926 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: You can tell how I'm excited about all that. So 927 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: while I'm doing this research, I'm really thinking about the 928 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: idea of like humanity and like humanity being about caring 929 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: for other people, helping other people, being able to like 930 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: have empathy for other people. But as I'm reading this 931 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: research sort of realizing that, like, unfortunately often our sense 932 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: of humanity is circumscribed to people that we feel close 933 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: to and people that we have relationships with, and like 934 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: the word humanity is like it's sort of like reflects that, 935 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: like this is some aspect of human nature, but actually, 936 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: like our caring, our loving side or empathic side comes 937 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: out so much more when we feel close to other people, 938 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,879 Speaker 1: and so like that to me means that like, if 939 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: you want other people to treat you well in your life, 940 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: whether that's at work or I don't know, have the 941 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: coffee shop, or with your friends, Like developing close relationships 942 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: with them is central to basically living in a world 943 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: where other people are more willing to treat you with 944 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 1: so much humanity. And it's like it's unfortunate that that 945 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: that's the case, and we see that that happening politically, 946 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: but I think like it's a point that I've really 947 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: been thinking about in terms of like who were who 948 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: people are most likely to be nice to you and 949 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 1: go out of their way too, and I think closer 950 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: relationships are really one of the strong predictors of that 951 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: love it. Thank you for sharing that, Dr Franco. So 952 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: where can people find you online? How can they connect? 953 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: The best place to find me is going to be 954 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: on my Twitter, where I'm going to start posting more 955 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: tips relate to friendship and so you can find me 956 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,359 Speaker 1: at Marissa G. Franco. That's m A R I s 957 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: A G f r A M C O perfect. Of 958 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: course we will include all of that in our show notes. Well, 959 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending this time with us today, 960 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: Dr Franco and sharing this wealth of information. I really 961 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: appreciate it, so it's so fun. I'm so excited to 962 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: share this stuff. I'm just like, people need to know 963 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 1: this stuff. Yes, yes, I love it. Thank you so much, 964 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm so glad. Dr Franco was able to 965 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: share her expertise with us today. To learn more about 966 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: her or to check out the books that she shared, 967 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot 968 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: com slash Session one eighteen. If you love this conversation, 969 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: please do me a favorite and share this episode with 970 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: two are your girls, and don't forget to share your 971 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: takeaways with us in your I G stories or on 972 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:11,399 Speaker 1: Twitter using the hashtag TBG in session. If you want 973 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic and meet some other 974 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: cysters in your area, come on over and join us 975 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper 976 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: dive into the topics from the podcast and just about 977 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black 978 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash y c C and if you're 979 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: searching for a therapist in your area, be sure to 980 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls 981 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: dot com slash directory. Thank y'all so much for joining 982 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continue in 983 00:47:43,200 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take it care 984 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: the best pack open the Squitch