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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will

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Speaker 2: love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapists sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn full,

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Speaker 1: and we may edit it for length and clarity. In

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Speaker 1: the sessions, you'll hear. All names have been changed for

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Speaker 1: the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Guy, Hey Laurie.

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Speaker 2: So today we're going to do something a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Recently we did a live event where we

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Speaker 1: got to share how we do these your therapist sessions

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Speaker 1: every week and what we're really thinking when we're trying

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Speaker 1: to help all of you through the issues that you

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Speaker 1: bring us.

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Speaker 2: We also dipped into our mailbox and gave advice to

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Speaker 2: some letters you sent us. So this week here's a

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Speaker 2: treat Deotherapists Live. You're listening Tootherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 3: My name is Janet Gattis. I am the owner and

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Speaker 3: founder of Avid Bookshop here in Athens, Georgia. Welcome, good evening,

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Speaker 3: and welcome to our very special event with Guy Wench

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Speaker 3: and Laurie Gottlieb from the podcast Dear Therapists. Both of

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Speaker 3: these people are stellar therapists, hosts of their own podcast,

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Speaker 3: and have written multiple books. First off, I am so

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Speaker 3: excited that the new season of Dear Therapists just launched.

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Speaker 3: As of yesterday, already heard the episode twice, and as

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Speaker 3: with every other episode of the show that I've heard,

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Speaker 3: I'm really curious to know sort of the background of

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Speaker 3: how you to process the number of letters you get,

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Speaker 3: how many letters you get, and how you choose ultimately

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Speaker 3: what gets on the show. Would you guys answer that

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Speaker 3: for us?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, just thank you for doing this

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Speaker 1: and having us. We were so excited to have this conversation,

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Speaker 1: especially launch week. We get so many letters, and going

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Speaker 1: into season two, one of the things we've always said

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Speaker 1: is what made season one so great were the quality

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Speaker 1: of the letters that we got from people all over

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Speaker 1: the world. We wish we could do all of them.

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Speaker 1: It would be great. We would just have a million episodes,

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Speaker 1: but we really pick letters that we feel have some

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Speaker 1: universal quality to them. So while each letter is very

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Speaker 1: specific to a situation, like in the first episode it

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Speaker 1: was about Instagram cheating, it really was about so many

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Speaker 1: other things and I think you'll find that in every

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Speaker 1: single episode. The one thing that's interesting about it is

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Speaker 1: that we don't actually discuss the letters. So even though

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Speaker 1: we will choose letters, we don't actually know before we

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Speaker 1: start talking on that episode, what we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about. We don't say we think this might happen

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Speaker 1: in this episode, or let's discuss how we think about

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Speaker 1: this letter. We don't do any of that. We act

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Speaker 1: like someone has just walked into our therapy room and

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Speaker 1: we're hearing this for the very first time. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what makes the show so dynamic is that

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Speaker 1: it's not scripted. There's no agenda that we have in

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Speaker 1: mind beforehand. We're just like, here's the letter. We have

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Speaker 1: no idea what's going to happen. The audience has no

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Speaker 1: idea what's going to happen, and here we go.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, that's what makes it scary also

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Speaker 2: for us, you know, a therapist, because we're there, we

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Speaker 2: really don't know what the other person is thinking. We

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Speaker 2: don't know where it's going to go. The actual session

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Speaker 2: might go in a very different direction.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that's exciting. Had either of you done

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Speaker 3: sort of therapy with a therapeutic partner before, Like, how

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Speaker 3: did you go about knowing who's going to speak when

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Speaker 3: and what kind of feedback you would give in tandem?

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Speaker 2: We don't, That's what's.

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Speaker 1: We don't at all. I mean, but I think that

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Speaker 1: that's what's so great is that when so What a

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Speaker 1: lot of people might not know is that when therapists train,

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Speaker 1: often you get feedback in a certain way on your session.

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Speaker 1: So some people might be behind a one way mirror,

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Speaker 1: or you tape your sessions and record them and you

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Speaker 1: bring them to your supervisor. All of this, of course

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Speaker 1: with the consent of the client. But once you're in

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Speaker 1: private practice, you don't get that anymore. Really, And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's so interesting about working with Guy

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Speaker 1: is to see how he works. He makes me a

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Speaker 1: better therapist. I think watching a direction he goes, or

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Speaker 1: where I might get stuck somewhere, He'll jump in, and

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Speaker 1: vice versa. I think if he is sort of going

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Speaker 1: somewhere and the person is stuck there, I'll jump in.

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Speaker 1: And so we really tag team really well, even though

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Speaker 1: we can't read each other's minds. Even if sometimes I

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Speaker 1: think where is he going with this, I'm confident that

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Speaker 1: wherever he's going is too an important place.

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Speaker 2: And I can say that I've many times over this

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Speaker 2: past a year and a half since we started working

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Speaker 2: together in my own sessions that I do in my

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Speaker 2: own private practice. I'll get to a moment where I

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Speaker 2: literally say to myself in the head, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: do a Lori here, and then I do a thing

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Speaker 2: that I think Lauri would do, because I I think

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Speaker 2: that's a good place, and she does that thing. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do lor here, and I have that

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Speaker 2: in my head. Many times I'm like, Yep, thank for

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Speaker 2: a Lauri right there. That's great.

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Speaker 3: One thing that I find really outstanding about it is

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Speaker 3: that I was just texting a friend about this last night,

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Speaker 3: about recommending episodes of season one for her, and one

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Speaker 3: of the things I pointed out was that even if

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Speaker 3: the name of the episode and the description sound like

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Speaker 3: this person like I don't have any strange daughter, I

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Speaker 3: don't have any kids at all, I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: get a lot out of this episode. Every single episode

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Speaker 3: there are these gems and takeaways that are impacting me,

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Speaker 3: a single, forty one year old woman who doesn't have

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Speaker 3: any kids. So it's just really interesting to me how

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Speaker 3: you can tell very much that you too are hyper

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Speaker 3: focused on the client in the virtual room, yet so

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Speaker 3: many of the things that you share are really applicable

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Speaker 3: to so many of us. And that brings me to

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Speaker 3: a question about sort of how the pandemic has affected

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Speaker 3: the sorts of therapy you do in der therapists or

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Speaker 3: in your private practices. I know that the show launched

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Speaker 3: sort of as COVID was a thing in the world,

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Speaker 3: but how have you noticed the nature of people's concerns

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Speaker 3: or worries or letters shift over.

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Speaker 1: The last year or so. Well, I just want to

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Speaker 1: say before we talk about COVID that what you were

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Speaker 1: saying earlier about how applicable each episode is to everyone,

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Speaker 1: because relationships are relationships in the world. Whether it's relationship

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Speaker 1: to self, relationship to friends, to family, to siblings, to

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Speaker 1: romantic partners, to bosses to coworkers, they're all relationships. And

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Speaker 1: so I remember in season one, early on, we had

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Speaker 1: a couple on and this was a married couple, they

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Speaker 1: had kids, they'd been married for a while, and this

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Speaker 1: young woman in her early twenties wrote in and she said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not married yet, I don't have kids yet, but

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Speaker 1: I used the advice with my boss at work and

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Speaker 1: it was amazing. And so I think that that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of response that we've been getting all through season

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Speaker 1: one and we hope to continue through season two, is

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Speaker 1: that even if you look at the title of the

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Speaker 1: episode say well, that's not my situation. I would really

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Speaker 1: encourage people to listen to the episodes because our goal

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Speaker 1: in putting them out there is to make these sessions

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Speaker 1: accessible to everyone. Not everybody can or wants to go

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Speaker 1: to a therapist, but you can get so much out

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Speaker 1: of one conversation if you see yourself in some element

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Speaker 1: of the struggle, and a lot of it is the

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Speaker 1: things that you can use in your daily life, no

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Speaker 1: matter who you are, how old you are, what your

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Speaker 1: situation is, and that's what we love about the show.

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Speaker 2: And as therapists, we're trained to ask questions such as, so,

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Speaker 2: why are you doing the thing that you're doing, or

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Speaker 2: what are you hoping to achieve? Or how did that

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Speaker 2: get set up for you in your earlier relationships or

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Speaker 2: in your childhood, And then that is crafted around a

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Speaker 2: specific issue perhaps, but the question is relevant in a

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Speaker 2: much more general way, and people hear that and they're

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Speaker 2: asking ourselves that question in the context of their own lives.

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Speaker 2: And that's why you can learn a lot from it,

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Speaker 2: because it's really about how to think about yourself, how

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Speaker 2: to think about your situation, how to think about your patents,

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Speaker 2: how to think about the impact of earlier experiences and

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Speaker 2: that generalized as to everyone truly.

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Speaker 3: So thinking keeping all that in mind, does that mean

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Speaker 3: that maybe COVID era letters maybe weren't all that different

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Speaker 3: at heart from what you had been getting previously.

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Speaker 1: I think they weren't that different. I mean many of

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Speaker 1: them touched on how COVID was impacting these people, whether

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Speaker 1: it was in a marriage, or we had a teacher

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Speaker 1: who couldn't be with her students and how that was

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Speaker 1: impacting her. Whatever people were going through before the pandemic

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Speaker 1: was amplified. So if they were if a relationship was

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Speaker 1: very strong, it got stronger. If a relationship was struggling,

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Speaker 1: or things were not discussed. This really came to light

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Speaker 1: during COVID. Really, what we're dealing with is just the

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Speaker 1: human condition. And yes, there are going to be big

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Speaker 1: events like COVID or you know, other things that happened,

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Speaker 1: But really what we're dealing with is how do we

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Speaker 1: deal with the daily stuff of life.

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Speaker 3: And speaking of people's personal stories, both of you, in

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Speaker 3: your talks and your books and occasionally in interviews I've

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Speaker 3: heard you'll reveal personal things about your own lives, how

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Speaker 3: do you decide what you want to reveal to an

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Speaker 3: audience where you don't know who's there, And how do

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Speaker 3: you sort of ride the line of being someone like

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Speaker 3: I'd never met you until today, but I trust you

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Speaker 3: both very much, but until you saw my face, you

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Speaker 3: would never have known who I was passing you on

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Speaker 3: the street. How do you balance that role of where

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Speaker 3: people feel like they know you, but you really are

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Speaker 3: still just a therapist to them. How does that play

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Speaker 3: out in your careers in different aspects.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because in Maybe You Should talk to Someone.

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Speaker 1: In my most recent book, I follow the lives of

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Speaker 1: four very different patients, and then there's a fifth patient

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Speaker 1: in the book who is me as I go through

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Speaker 1: my own therapy with my therapist, and I say at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the book that my greatest credential is

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Speaker 1: that I am a card caring member of the human race.

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Speaker 1: That I know what it's like to be a person

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Speaker 1: in the world, and I didn't want to present myself

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Speaker 1: as sort of the expert up on high. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like that translates over into the podcast, because you know,

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Speaker 1: we're not sitting here talking about our personal lives and

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Speaker 1: the podcast, but we use our personal experience to connect

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Speaker 1: with people on a very human level. We obviously are

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Speaker 1: using our training and our expertise and everything that we

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Speaker 1: have learned as therapists, but we're also relating to people

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Speaker 1: just human to human and I think that's what makes

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Speaker 1: the episode so compelling, and I think that's what makes

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Speaker 1: therapy so compelling.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing. People will come up to me

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Speaker 2: sometimes will recognize me from either Ted Talks or the

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Speaker 2: podcast or writing or different things, and they will come

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Speaker 2: up to me as if, as you said, is if

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Speaker 2: they know me when I don't know them, and this

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Speaker 2: in essence, they don't really know me. But it's there's

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Speaker 2: something that I so found in my experience. People have

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Speaker 2: been very respectful. They feel a certain affinity, a certain

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Speaker 2: fondness because if they heard something, it might have touched

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Speaker 2: them or it might have resonated with them. We've been

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Speaker 2: very fortunate in that way. At the second speak to

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Speaker 2: my experience that when that does happen, when I do

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Speaker 2: pass people in the street and they stop me, or

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Speaker 2: in a restaurant or an airport, once in the gym

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Speaker 2: in the shadow, but that's a different one.

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Speaker 1: And in the broad department of a department store, just

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Speaker 1: like why.

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Speaker 2: But thankfully it's been friendly and so those are okay.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe you should talk to someone. I say

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Speaker 1: that therapists are like dalers celebrities, you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the only people to whom they are, they're like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know who that is? Who I

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Speaker 1: just saw in the restaurant is the people who have

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Speaker 1: come to see us, right or the people who maybe

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Speaker 1: read our books or listen to podcast. I don't you know.

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Speaker 1: Obviously from the podcast you don't see us, so you

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Speaker 1: only hear our voices. But I've actually had people recognize

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Speaker 1: my voice from across a restaurant. Maybe I'm just a

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Speaker 1: loud talker. I don't know. But like guys said, I

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Speaker 1: think people, I think they feel a connection because they've

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Speaker 1: been moved very personally in these very intimate conversations by

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Speaker 1: something that we've put out there. And so that's I

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Speaker 1: think incredibly meaningful to us. We appreciate the fact that

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Speaker 1: we have touched somebody's life in that way.

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Speaker 3: That's beautiful. And speaking of that again, writing the line

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Speaker 3: between really knowing someone versus only interacting with them on

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Speaker 3: this one episode. I've been really curious about the letter

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Speaker 3: writers who end up being featured on the show. What

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Speaker 3: is the vetting process like in order to figure out if, yes,

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Speaker 3: this is the letter writer we want, and then what

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Speaker 3: kind of conversations and things do they need to keep

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Speaker 3: in mind when they are putting their voices out there,

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Speaker 3: even if they are kind of masking identifying details.

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Speaker 2: What people need to know, especially people who are writing

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Speaker 2: in is that, as in a therapy session, you can

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Speaker 2: come with issue A, but everything has to be on

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Speaker 2: the table because if we think issue A is related

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Speaker 2: to other things, we want to be able to explode

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Speaker 2: those things, won't to be able to ask questions about

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Speaker 2: those things. And therapy is a very non linear process

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Speaker 2: at zigzags all over the place because connections are made

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Speaker 2: and patterns are identified by doing that, and that's kind

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Speaker 2: of what we do within the podcast, And so we

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Speaker 2: edit out any identifying information, so people use pseudonyms in

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Speaker 2: that way. I think people can remain anonymous, but they

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Speaker 2: have to be able to truly open their hearts as

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Speaker 2: you do when you go to therapy.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate how in the shows we can't see

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Speaker 3: you two or the person you're speaking with. But you

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Speaker 3: both do a really good job of saying, like, I

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Speaker 3: see your eyes are filling with tears, or you looked

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Speaker 3: away from us just then. But yeah, I just really

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Speaker 3: love those moments where you kind of let us have

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Speaker 3: a peek into what's going on for that client.

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Speaker 1: We say that as much for the audience as we

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Speaker 1: do for the person that we're talking to. So sometimes

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Speaker 1: people don't even realize that they're tearing up, so we

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Speaker 1: want to have them slow down in that moment to say,

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Speaker 1: I notice that you're tearing up. What are you feeling

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Speaker 1: right now? What just came up for you? Because people

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Speaker 1: will just go right over that because they don't want

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Speaker 1: they don't want to notice that, and we want to

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Speaker 1: slow them down so that they do notice it. So

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Speaker 1: because something important just happened there. If they smile, sometimes

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Speaker 1: people don't even notice that they experienced joy or that something,

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Speaker 1: you know, something really resonated with them. So say, I

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Speaker 1: noticed you smiling there, so I think that that resonated

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Speaker 1: with you. So it's for both. It's actually what we

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Speaker 1: would do in a regular therapy session too. I like

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Speaker 1: that a lot.

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Speaker 3: I know, even in I won't spoil it for anyone

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Speaker 3: who's not already heard the first episode of season two.

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Speaker 3: There's a moment there where I was surprised by what

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Speaker 3: you observed in the letter writer, and I hadn't expected

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Speaker 3: you to say you saw on her face what you saw,

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Speaker 3: And that was kind of a fascinating moment to hear

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Speaker 3: her saying, kind of reflect on what you're bringing up.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciated that my mom is here at this

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Speaker 3: event too, and she and I listened to on season

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Speaker 3: one Jeff's critical parents on the way back from a

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Speaker 3: road trip, and I am very thankful I have great

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Speaker 3: parents who are not critical of me and are positive.

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Speaker 3: But it was fascinating to listen to that with her.

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Speaker 3: And then afterward I realized that that storyline echoed in

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Speaker 3: several loved ones in my life, so I was able

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Speaker 3: to send that episode to them. But I think that

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Speaker 3: one in particular, I remember hearing the moments where you're

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Speaker 3: pointing out how he's reacting in the moment. I think

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Speaker 3: you also do such a great job for the audience.

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Speaker 3: I know it's for the client, but it helps us

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Speaker 3: a lot when you kind of catch like the tone

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Speaker 3: someone's using with himself or the way that he's speaking

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Speaker 3: about a certain scenario and how the roles are changing.

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Speaker 3: I just find it so fascinating. So a lot of

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Speaker 3: all of us are made up of stories. And Guy

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Speaker 3: and I were talking a little bit before we started

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Speaker 3: recording about how he worked as a bookseller. I think

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Speaker 3: as an adolescent. Laurie has done a thing that we

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Speaker 3: linked to on our Instagram a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 3: written an article on bibliotherapy, which is the process of

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Speaker 3: using books in the written word to help people get

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Speaker 3: better in touch with themselves and their emotions. Can you

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Speaker 3: talk a little bit about some books that you have

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Speaker 3: recommended for particular clients and why it's.

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Speaker 2: Really wonderful when you have a book in mind that

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Speaker 2: you think would be really useful for a specific person,

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Speaker 2: it always feels like, Oh, I have the perfect thing

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Speaker 2: for you. One book that I recommend a lot to

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Speaker 2: expecting parents who are expecting for the first time is

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Speaker 2: a book called Welcome to the Club one hundred Parenting

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Speaker 2: Milestones You Never saw coming. It's by a comic called

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Speaker 2: Rakeldia Piece. She's actually an Emmy Award winning writer. But

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Speaker 2: it's a wonderful book because it's hilarious, but it's about

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Speaker 2: everything that goes wrong, and the idea there is that

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Speaker 2: parents are so terrified to bring home this baby for

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Speaker 2: the first time, and they think that anytime they do

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Speaker 2: something wrong, it's terrible, and they don't realize that everyone

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Speaker 2: goes through it, and all parents make all these mistakes,

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Speaker 2: and in the humor it normalizes, it humanizes, and I

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Speaker 2: find that people when they read that, it just lows

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Speaker 2: their anxiety tremendously by the humor of it. So that's

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Speaker 2: one book I love recommending.

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Speaker 1: I actually never thought I would become a therapist growing up,

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Speaker 1: but I was an avid reader. And how this relates

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Speaker 1: to your question is that I always found that novels

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Speaker 1: were the really good ones, the ones that I would

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Speaker 1: think about, the ones I would reread at different stages

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Speaker 1: of my life, really had these deep psychological truths embedded

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Speaker 1: in them. And that's what made for the kinds of

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Speaker 1: characters that really lived inside of you. And I think

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Speaker 1: when you're reading a novel and you have those moments

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Speaker 1: of that's me, I see myself. I'm not alone, and

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Speaker 1: you think you were the only person who felt that,

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Speaker 1: did that, thought that, and this character does things the

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Speaker 1: same things. It's such an amazing moment of connection and

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Speaker 1: that's what books have always been for me. And so

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Speaker 1: later when I became a therapist, I was always recommending books.

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Speaker 1: Even in my training when they said, oh, don't recommend books.

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Speaker 1: You can't do that because you're supposed to be very neutral,

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Speaker 1: and I was always like, are you crazy, Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: books are therapy, and that's why I wrote that New

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Speaker 1: York Times piece about bibliotherapy. So I really tailor my

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Speaker 1: book suggestions to the particular person. It's something that comes

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Speaker 1: up in the moment where you know, I'm like an

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Speaker 1: encyclopedia with books, and so someone says the thing, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, stop, if there's this book you have

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Speaker 1: to read. So for me, it's less nonfiction than it

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Speaker 1: is great novels. But I will recommend nonfiction if there's

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Speaker 1: something particular, like someone's struggling with, you know, some of

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Speaker 1: the themes even that we see on the podcast, but

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Speaker 1: also in the therapy room, estrangement partners who maybe have

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Speaker 1: some characteristics of personality disorders, or family members who do

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Speaker 1: books about In fact, Guy just recommended a great book

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Speaker 1: on We just taped an episode for season two where

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Speaker 1: he recommended a book on anxiety to the person and

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Speaker 1: she found it so useful even just starting the book

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Speaker 1: that first week. So books can be incredibly healing and

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Speaker 1: informative at the same time.

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Speaker 2: By the way, the book that Loid just reference is

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Speaker 2: called The Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boyce. I also get

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Speaker 2: a lot of recommendations from my patients because they will

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Speaker 2: come in and they're like, oh my god, I read

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Speaker 2: something and it was so helpful, and I'm like, tell

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Speaker 2: me what it is, and I'll write it down and

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Speaker 2: I'll check it out, and it's very useful in general.

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Speaker 1: I had that experience with maybe you should talk to someone,

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Speaker 1: where interestingly, a lot of therapists did not know about

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Speaker 1: it at the beginning. It was general public kind of book,

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Speaker 1: and so many therapists said, I heard about your book

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Speaker 1: because a client brought it in and they were talking

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Speaker 1: about it, and I had to read it because they

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Speaker 1: kept talking about it every week, and so it didn't

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Speaker 1: go from therapist to client. It went from client to therapist.

432
00:23:05,439 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: So guys write books do go in the opposite direction.

433
00:23:08,639 --> 00:23:09,079
Speaker 1: That's funny.

434
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a huge fiction reader, and I remember for

435
00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:15,279
Speaker 3: a while in my mid twenties when I wasn't sure

436
00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:18,239
Speaker 3: what my career was going to be. I was like,

437
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: am I do I want to be a therapist because

438
00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:23,039
Speaker 3: that's what I love the most about reading novels. I

439
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 3: do not hold the degrees that you have or the experience,

440
00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: but there is such an element to working in an

441
00:23:29,199 --> 00:23:32,559
Speaker 3: independent bookstore where we get to know our community members,

442
00:23:32,639 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 3: and I and my staff are really good at reading

443
00:23:35,999 --> 00:23:38,759
Speaker 3: the emotions on someone's face and kind of helping them

444
00:23:38,919 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 3: figure out what the next book is it's going to

445
00:23:40,959 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 3: kind of help them move forward.

446
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,279
Speaker 1: That's one of the things I love about independent booksellers

447
00:23:45,439 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: is that you walk in and they know you, and

448
00:23:47,999 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: if they don't already know you, they will talk to

449
00:23:50,439 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: you until they do know you. Every book that I

450
00:23:53,199 --> 00:23:56,279
Speaker 1: have gotten as a recommendation from an independent bookstore has

451
00:23:56,319 --> 00:23:58,279
Speaker 1: always been one of the books that stays on my

452
00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:01,519
Speaker 1: bookshelf forever because I think there's that personal element. Just

453
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:06,559
Speaker 1: like therapists can very personally suggest something, so can independent booksellers.

454
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,079
Speaker 2: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

455
00:24:17,079 --> 00:24:17,839
Speaker 2: a quick break.

456
00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:31,559
Speaker 3: A lot of the time I've heard you recommend to

457
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 3: people that they write a letter or do some sort

458
00:24:34,479 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 3: of introspective work that requires them to do a letter

459
00:24:39,679 --> 00:24:45,039
Speaker 3: to themselves, a journal entry, rewriting their own biography. How

460
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 3: does writing help your clients in you and how do

461
00:24:47,999 --> 00:24:49,839
Speaker 3: you use that as a tool in your therapy.

462
00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:52,559
Speaker 2: The people who come on our show, they're not our

463
00:24:52,639 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: clients by definition, their guests on the show. Writing is

464
00:24:56,239 --> 00:25:00,599
Speaker 2: a very very powerful tool because it uses all kinds

465
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: of parts of the brain. It's not just the idea

466
00:25:02,719 --> 00:25:05,559
Speaker 2: that you have that has to be translated then into

467
00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 2: various specific words that have to follow grammatical rules. You

468
00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:10,999
Speaker 2: need to find modusk to type it or write it.

469
00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:14,799
Speaker 2: And when you're trying to get someone to think differently

470
00:25:14,919 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 2: about a task or to discover something about themselves, giving

471
00:25:18,959 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 2: them a writing task affords them a certain level of

472
00:25:23,159 --> 00:25:26,079
Speaker 2: emotional and psychological distance because by the time it gets

473
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,599
Speaker 2: translated into the written word, they are experiencing what the

474
00:25:30,639 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 2: thought might have been very emotional and difficult. By the

475
00:25:32,919 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: time they write it, they have a layer of distance

476
00:25:35,399 --> 00:25:38,839
Speaker 2: from it, which gives them that little measure of objectivity,

477
00:25:38,879 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: that little different kind of perspective that will allow them

478
00:25:42,439 --> 00:25:45,279
Speaker 2: to potentially see this in a new way. So it's

479
00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:50,039
Speaker 2: a tool that therapists use literally all the time. Then

480
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:53,239
Speaker 2: we use it in very different ways for different people

481
00:25:53,239 --> 00:25:55,999
Speaker 2: in different situations. We use it in the show, of course,

482
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 2: all the time, because it's very very useful and impactful

483
00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:01,599
Speaker 2: to really see something in a different way than you

484
00:26:01,679 --> 00:26:03,279
Speaker 2: might if you were just thinking about it.

485
00:26:04,479 --> 00:26:06,559
Speaker 1: I think what happens is people come on the show

486
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:08,519
Speaker 1: and they'll often say, I've been dealing with this problem

487
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: for years, and they're stuck and they don't know how

488
00:26:11,719 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: to get unstuck, and you need to get them out

489
00:26:15,719 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: of whatever they're doing which hasn't been working. I think

490
00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: that most people truly know what they need to do.

491
00:26:22,439 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: They just don't know what's getting in the way of

492
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: doing the thing that they need to do. And what

493
00:26:27,679 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: we do is we help them to do that through

494
00:26:30,959 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 1: these various exercises. And just because it's a writing assignment

495
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:36,999
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's the same. No two writing assignments are

496
00:26:36,999 --> 00:26:39,319
Speaker 1: the same, and we don't suggest a writing assignment on

497
00:26:39,399 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: every podcast, obviously, but when we do, it's very unique

498
00:26:43,479 --> 00:26:46,759
Speaker 1: to that person and their situation. There are no two

499
00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:51,039
Speaker 1: episodes where they have exactly the same homework assignment. I

500
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,239
Speaker 1: was a competitive chess player growing up, and one of

501
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: the things that was really important was how do you

502
00:26:55,719 --> 00:26:57,759
Speaker 1: get in there? Which if I make this move, they're

503
00:26:57,799 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: going to make this move, and then uh oh, I

504
00:26:59,479 --> 00:27:02,039
Speaker 1: better adjust my plan and make this move. Guy and

505
00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 1: I are constantly thinking it's very strategic when we're doing this.

506
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: How do we get this person to the place that

507
00:27:08,239 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: they need to go in order to have things change

508
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,279
Speaker 1: for them? Because really the show is about change and

509
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:17,279
Speaker 1: growth and healing and transformation, and we only have one

510
00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:19,279
Speaker 1: session to do that, and we want to get as

511
00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:21,599
Speaker 1: far as we can. And what we've been so surprised

512
00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: by is that even with that one session, people are

513
00:27:25,199 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: able to make significant shifts in their lives. And in

514
00:27:28,479 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: season two we have where are They Now? Episodes where

515
00:27:31,479 --> 00:27:33,319
Speaker 1: we take the season one guest so we don't just

516
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,039
Speaker 1: get the week update, but we get a year long

517
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 1: update and we find out where are they a year later?

518
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:41,599
Speaker 1: And it's been so gratifying. I don't want to spoil it.

519
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: Guys looking at me giving me the look like, don't

520
00:27:43,919 --> 00:27:47,279
Speaker 1: say it, because we have heard them now we know

521
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: where everybody is. But we are just blown away by it,

522
00:27:51,439 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 1: and we think people are going to be so moved

523
00:27:52,959 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: when they hear you know where people are a year

524
00:27:55,239 --> 00:27:58,279
Speaker 1: later after having just one conversation, not because we're so great,

525
00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: but because we move them to a new place and

526
00:28:01,239 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: then they took it from there.

527
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: That's beautiful. There's one episode in season one where you

528
00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:12,559
Speaker 3: have a letter writer explore a situation in his life

529
00:28:12,639 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 3: from his ex spouse's point of view, and I was

530
00:28:15,999 --> 00:28:19,079
Speaker 3: wondering if you could talk a little bit about, because

531
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,559
Speaker 3: we have a lot of readers in the audience right now,

532
00:28:21,639 --> 00:28:23,799
Speaker 3: just that change of point of view and how that

533
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 3: type of exercise in particular can help shift someone's perspective.

534
00:28:28,679 --> 00:28:31,839
Speaker 2: That was an exercise in perspective taking. That was a

535
00:28:31,879 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 2: person who had cheated on his wife and then left

536
00:28:36,719 --> 00:28:39,359
Speaker 2: her for that person, think a month after the birth

537
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:43,599
Speaker 2: of their second child. And this person was actually a

538
00:28:43,639 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 2: good person, but they really had trouble connecting to the

539
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:53,359
Speaker 2: ex wife's perspective of how their actions must have felt

540
00:28:53,999 --> 00:28:57,359
Speaker 2: to her. And when we asked about it, you could

541
00:28:57,439 --> 00:29:00,319
Speaker 2: see that there was a wish to connect, but he

542
00:29:00,479 --> 00:29:04,039
Speaker 2: couldn't articulate or see it from her perspective, and so

543
00:29:04,079 --> 00:29:07,199
Speaker 2: we literally took him through an exercise that some of

544
00:29:07,239 --> 00:29:10,039
Speaker 2: the feedback that we've gotten was, Wow, that sounded so difficult.

545
00:29:10,159 --> 00:29:12,919
Speaker 2: It was emotionally very challenging because he ritually had to

546
00:29:12,919 --> 00:29:15,999
Speaker 2: put himself in her shoes and look and see the

547
00:29:16,039 --> 00:29:19,279
Speaker 2: impact of his actions on her and tell the story.

548
00:29:19,639 --> 00:29:21,879
Speaker 2: The exercise was from her point of view, from the

549
00:29:21,879 --> 00:29:25,119
Speaker 2: beginning of meeting him, through the marriage, and through the cheating.

550
00:29:25,159 --> 00:29:28,319
Speaker 2: So it was a very difficult exercise, but he was

551
00:29:28,639 --> 00:29:30,879
Speaker 2: really gained to do it, and he was brave to

552
00:29:30,879 --> 00:29:32,839
Speaker 2: do it, and it was painful for him, but he

553
00:29:32,999 --> 00:29:37,079
Speaker 2: eventually got there and was able to connect with her

554
00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:39,359
Speaker 2: perspective in a way he really hadn't been able to

555
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:42,319
Speaker 2: despite thinking about this for a very, very long time.

556
00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:46,679
Speaker 1: This was the episode called Mike's Messy Affair, and we

557
00:29:46,879 --> 00:29:50,759
Speaker 1: really wanted to go with that letter because I think

558
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:54,079
Speaker 1: so many people make assumptions right away. He was basically

559
00:29:54,159 --> 00:29:57,799
Speaker 1: asking what the cultural assumption was in his letter, which was,

560
00:29:57,839 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, as Guy says in the episode, so this

561
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:02,159
Speaker 1: is a tell me I'm not a scumbag letter because

562
00:30:02,159 --> 00:30:04,679
Speaker 1: he wants to know everyone thinks I'm a terrible person

563
00:30:04,719 --> 00:30:07,439
Speaker 1: for doing what I did, and you know, my friends

564
00:30:07,439 --> 00:30:09,919
Speaker 1: won't talk to me, nobody will talk to me all

565
00:30:09,959 --> 00:30:12,119
Speaker 1: of this, and you know, he wanted, you know, he

566
00:30:12,199 --> 00:30:14,559
Speaker 1: really was concerned about his children because he didn't want

567
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 1: to lose custody of his children, and all of those things.

568
00:30:18,679 --> 00:30:21,079
Speaker 1: I think that when you when you see the humanity

569
00:30:21,159 --> 00:30:23,759
Speaker 1: in him, and when you see him really be able

570
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:26,439
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, the reason that I can't acknowledge how

571
00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:29,079
Speaker 1: much pain I've caused is because of how much shame

572
00:30:29,199 --> 00:30:33,839
Speaker 1: I feel around having done what I did. I wish

573
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,399
Speaker 1: that I had handled it differently. I think ending the

574
00:30:37,439 --> 00:30:40,199
Speaker 1: marriage was a good thing, but this is, you know,

575
00:30:40,239 --> 00:30:42,519
Speaker 1: his perspective. I think ending the marriage was a good thing,

576
00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:44,519
Speaker 1: but the way I did it was a terrible thing.

577
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:48,679
Speaker 1: And for him to go through that, and you can see,

578
00:30:48,879 --> 00:30:50,879
Speaker 1: you know how much he's struggling with it. But I

579
00:30:50,919 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 1: also hope that people have so much compassion for him

580
00:30:54,239 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 1: and feel, you know, just how human he is, and

581
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:00,919
Speaker 1: get past the what he did and more into the

582
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:02,999
Speaker 1: where is he now and what is he trying to

583
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:04,079
Speaker 1: do now? With all of this.

584
00:31:04,919 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 3: I remember that one in particular, making note of my

585
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:11,999
Speaker 3: own reaction to his tone, particularly at the beginning of

586
00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:15,039
Speaker 3: the episode, and I thought like, oh, Janet, you don't

587
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:16,919
Speaker 3: have a right to judge him. But I also was like, oh,

588
00:31:16,959 --> 00:31:19,799
Speaker 3: this guy wonder what's going to happen? And just hearing

589
00:31:19,959 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 3: just how his tone shifted and just the journey he

590
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:24,839
Speaker 3: went on was fascinating to me.

591
00:31:25,639 --> 00:31:29,759
Speaker 1: I think with Mike in the episode, he had his

592
00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:33,079
Speaker 1: own struggles too. He was so lonely in that marriage.

593
00:31:33,159 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 1: He did not know how to talk to his wife.

594
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:36,759
Speaker 1: His wife didn't know how to talk with him. They

595
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:40,079
Speaker 1: both did not know how to communicate. And that's the

596
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:42,759
Speaker 1: part that's very relatable, is what do you do when

597
00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:44,879
Speaker 1: you've never had that model for you, You don't know

598
00:31:44,919 --> 00:31:49,519
Speaker 1: how to say how just desperately lonely? You are desperately alone,

599
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,679
Speaker 1: you feel you know, do you cheat? No? That's a choice, right,

600
00:31:54,439 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: But he did, and now he knows to do something different.

601
00:31:58,839 --> 00:32:01,319
Speaker 1: Now he's just learning, well, how do I communicate? What

602
00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:02,159
Speaker 1: would that look like?

603
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:05,199
Speaker 2: I do want to had? When we discussed whether we

604
00:32:05,199 --> 00:32:07,839
Speaker 2: should use that metha for the show, one of the

605
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:10,839
Speaker 2: things we thought about, naturally is that, yes, it sounds

606
00:32:10,959 --> 00:32:14,559
Speaker 2: terrible what he did, but he is writing to us.

607
00:32:14,639 --> 00:32:17,559
Speaker 2: He is actually asking for help in resolving that very

608
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:19,279
Speaker 2: issue of like what does this say about me? And

609
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:21,359
Speaker 2: how do I think about this? And that's a big

610
00:32:21,399 --> 00:32:23,399
Speaker 2: step forward in terms of like Okay, there's something to

611
00:32:23,439 --> 00:32:26,639
Speaker 2: work with that, because he's actually curious and he actually

612
00:32:26,679 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 2: wants to think about these things. So that was what

613
00:32:29,639 --> 00:32:31,679
Speaker 2: allowed us to say yes, and let's work with him.

614
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:34,399
Speaker 1: You can't help people who aren't curious about themselves. So

615
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:36,839
Speaker 1: often people will come into therapy and they're very curious

616
00:32:36,879 --> 00:32:39,839
Speaker 1: about other people, like, you know, why does my husband

617
00:32:39,879 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: do this or you know all these other why does

618
00:32:42,719 --> 00:32:45,319
Speaker 1: my mother do this? As opposed to why do I

619
00:32:45,399 --> 00:32:47,119
Speaker 1: react the way they do? Or what am I doing

620
00:32:47,159 --> 00:32:49,319
Speaker 1: to contribute to the situation, or why am I in

621
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 1: this relationship in the first place. So when people come

622
00:32:52,999 --> 00:32:55,879
Speaker 1: on the show, we don't know them yet, we hope

623
00:32:55,879 --> 00:32:57,879
Speaker 1: we cross our fingers that they're going to be very

624
00:32:57,919 --> 00:33:00,599
Speaker 1: curious that they know what the show is, because it's

625
00:33:00,639 --> 00:33:03,159
Speaker 1: a show where if you aren't curious, you're you're going

626
00:33:03,239 --> 00:33:05,759
Speaker 1: to find yourself really struggling when you get in a

627
00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 1: room with guy and with me.

628
00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:11,599
Speaker 3: I'm now going to pivot to something you both offered

629
00:33:11,639 --> 00:33:14,799
Speaker 3: to do, which is dive into your letter bag a

630
00:33:14,879 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 3: little bit and tell us about a few writers who

631
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:21,519
Speaker 3: maybe weren't featured on the show, but you still want

632
00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:23,279
Speaker 3: to address their letters in this format.

633
00:33:23,439 --> 00:33:25,639
Speaker 1: So take it away.

634
00:33:26,199 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 2: I will begin and I'm gonna, as we do in

635
00:33:27,999 --> 00:33:30,399
Speaker 2: the show, I'll read this one to Laurie. She will

636
00:33:30,439 --> 00:33:31,839
Speaker 2: be the next one to me. But this is a

637
00:33:31,919 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 2: question you get asked a lot, and I think it'd

638
00:33:33,959 --> 00:33:37,319
Speaker 2: be good to just clarify it. Dea Lorii and Guy

639
00:33:38,479 --> 00:33:41,199
Speaker 2: I love the podcast and the Atlantic column. What does

640
00:33:41,399 --> 00:33:45,919
Speaker 2: fellow travelers refer to people traveling through life? I feel

641
00:33:45,919 --> 00:33:48,799
Speaker 2: like I missed the reference explanation somewhere because we always

642
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:52,599
Speaker 2: welcome our listeners to as fellow travelers and our guests

643
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:54,879
Speaker 2: as fellow travelers. So where is that from?

644
00:33:56,479 --> 00:34:00,599
Speaker 1: So we introduced that in the trailer for season one

645
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:03,319
Speaker 1: when we started and we were struggling with what do

646
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:04,999
Speaker 1: we call the people who come on the show because

647
00:34:04,999 --> 00:34:09,559
Speaker 1: they aren't our actual therapy clients and they aren't really yes,

648
00:34:09,919 --> 00:34:14,079
Speaker 1: because we feel like we get very deeply attached to

649
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: these people in the course of our session with them.

650
00:34:17,919 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 1: And I just spontaneously said to Guy, you know irv Yallam,

651
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:28,559
Speaker 1: the eminent psychiatrist who's really revolutionized the field of psychiatry

652
00:34:28,879 --> 00:34:33,559
Speaker 1: and therapy by being so human and so real with people.

653
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,039
Speaker 1: You know, he broke down that wall and he would

654
00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: call people fellow travelers. He said, we're all fellow travelers

655
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: on this journey, you know, therapists and patient together, we're

656
00:34:41,879 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: fellow travelers trying to figure this out. And I just

657
00:34:44,839 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: love that, and so we really thought that that maybe

658
00:34:47,919 --> 00:34:50,479
Speaker 1: was the best way to refer to the people who

659
00:34:50,479 --> 00:34:52,039
Speaker 1: come on and share their lives with us.

660
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:55,079
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to another letter, Lorie.

661
00:34:55,479 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: This is a letter that came into our box. It

662
00:34:57,279 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: goes like this, Dear therapists, I could really use some

663
00:35:00,919 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 1: help navigating my new relationship with my soon to be

664
00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:06,679
Speaker 1: stepdaughter's bio mom. I've been a mom of my own

665
00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: two kids for twelve years and have learned a lot.

666
00:35:09,359 --> 00:35:12,199
Speaker 1: Feeling very confident as a mom. My fiance and his

667
00:35:12,359 --> 00:35:15,119
Speaker 1: ex have been parents for three years. I am running

668
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: into a situation where I feel like the biomm is overreaching.

669
00:35:18,759 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: It's interesting by the way that she calls her the

670
00:35:20,799 --> 00:35:24,599
Speaker 1: biomom as opposed to just their mom. She wants to

671
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: know how our marriage house will be set up, what

672
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:29,999
Speaker 1: kind of bed their daughter will have, and things like

673
00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: whether we have dead bolts on the exterior doors. I

674
00:35:32,959 --> 00:35:37,199
Speaker 1: feel a huge invasion by these requests interacting with Biomom

675
00:35:37,439 --> 00:35:40,119
Speaker 1: has felt like I'm being interviewed to be a babysitter

676
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:43,519
Speaker 1: and getting inspected for my safety protocols. I've tried to

677
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:47,119
Speaker 1: assuage her fears while also establishing some healthy boundaries of

678
00:35:47,279 --> 00:35:49,999
Speaker 1: my house, my rules. But I'm wondering if you have

679
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: any advice for how to navigate conversations with biomm that

680
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:57,039
Speaker 1: help her unclench her fists of control. Do we try

681
00:35:57,079 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: to be more open right now to establish trust, or,

682
00:35:59,999 --> 00:36:02,999
Speaker 1: like my instincts suggests, would that just be a precedent

683
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: of biomom having a level of control over our space,

684
00:36:06,919 --> 00:36:08,999
Speaker 1: something I was already very worried about because of the

685
00:36:08,999 --> 00:36:11,559
Speaker 1: way she talks to my fiance. He is a wonderful

686
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: father and very doting. I just wish his ex would

687
00:36:14,359 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: see that and trust him. I'm just going to start

688
00:36:16,959 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: here because I'm having a lot of countertransference with this letter,

689
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:24,079
Speaker 1: and by the way, that's a very real thing, you know,

690
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: for people who don't know. Counter transference is the is

691
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,999
Speaker 1: the therapist's reaction to what the person presents to them.

692
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: And what this person is missing is that she is

693
00:36:33,799 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: not the mother of these children. She's the mother to

694
00:36:36,959 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: her own children, but she is not the mother of

695
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:43,479
Speaker 1: her fiancee's children, and she's referring to these kids' mother

696
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: as the biomom, not even the sometimes just biomm which

697
00:36:47,799 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: is kind of like she wants her out of the picture.

698
00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: It feels like, and my house, my rules. No, these

699
00:36:54,319 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: are not your kids. So of course the mom wants

700
00:36:56,799 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 1: to know are there dead bolts on the doors? And

701
00:36:59,479 --> 00:37:01,159
Speaker 1: where are they going to be sleeping? And what's going

702
00:37:01,199 --> 00:37:04,599
Speaker 1: to be happening with my children. The way she's going

703
00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: about that is she's making a lot of assumptions about

704
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: her role in this blended family.

705
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 2: And I will add to that again, we're not talking

706
00:37:12,479 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: to this person that on unpacking anything with them. But

707
00:37:15,439 --> 00:37:17,559
Speaker 2: to me, what stands out is that why is she

708
00:37:17,919 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 2: the one negotiating with bio mom. Why isn't the father

709
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: of the children dealing with his ex wife and coming

710
00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:28,119
Speaker 2: to agreements with his ex wife about like here's how

711
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: I want to do things, you know. So either he's

712
00:37:31,279 --> 00:37:34,639
Speaker 2: not stepping up the fiance or she's overstepping. It's one

713
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: or the other. But the solution to it is let

714
00:37:36,879 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: him deal with BioMA.

715
00:37:39,319 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 1: Well, also, I don't know the bio mom's a problem

716
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:44,559
Speaker 1: and I don't know what the fiance wants, so nowhere

717
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: in here was my fiance also feels this is a problem.

718
00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: So I have a feeling that she feels it's a problem,

719
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: but I don't have any information about does the fiance

720
00:37:54,999 --> 00:37:57,079
Speaker 1: feel it's a problem or is the fiance caught in

721
00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,159
Speaker 1: this untenable position of this person that I'm going to

722
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,519
Speaker 1: Mary wants this, my ex wife wants this, and I'm

723
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:06,519
Speaker 1: conflict avoidant, so I don't want to deal with any

724
00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: of it.

725
00:38:06,759 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: Definitely, the conflict avoidant, I would guess, But yes, yeah,

726
00:38:10,879 --> 00:38:12,999
Speaker 2: But I would just say this about blended families in general.

727
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:15,559
Speaker 1: We've had some full episodes about blended families. We had

728
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: one in season one, and we do have another one

729
00:38:18,839 --> 00:38:23,679
Speaker 1: in season two, different issues. But I think that people

730
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:26,119
Speaker 1: have to remember that there are many parents here. It's

731
00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:29,119
Speaker 1: not that certain parents get kicked out. That everybody is

732
00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 1: co parenting in a certain way. And when people can

733
00:38:31,999 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: get along and not try to control other people and

734
00:38:35,399 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: be really compassionate and emotionally generous with one another, it's

735
00:38:39,479 --> 00:38:42,519
Speaker 1: better for the kids, and it's also better for the adults.

736
00:38:42,879 --> 00:38:46,519
Speaker 1: And this whole like my house, my rules thing screams

737
00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:51,159
Speaker 1: of just lots of issues around control and lack of

738
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: openness to what the mother of these children might be

739
00:38:54,879 --> 00:38:57,159
Speaker 1: experiencing and might want for her own kids.

740
00:38:57,559 --> 00:38:59,639
Speaker 2: And I just want to maybe generalize what I said

741
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 2: earlier just because I think it's applicable to many situations.

742
00:39:02,959 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: For example, you know, I hear, we get a lot

743
00:39:05,319 --> 00:39:08,039
Speaker 2: of issues, and the therapy learn about this person having

744
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:10,559
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble with it in laws when they're

745
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: talking about things with their in laws that they shouldn't

746
00:39:12,799 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 2: be talking about with their in laws. The spouse should

747
00:39:14,799 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: be talking with their parents about them. And when the

748
00:39:17,279 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: other person is stepping in to do that communication and

749
00:39:20,879 --> 00:39:24,079
Speaker 2: negotiation when it's not their place to do it, things

750
00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 2: often go awry. And it's often the issue of the

751
00:39:26,959 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 2: person who needs to be doing it is not stepping

752
00:39:28,999 --> 00:39:30,999
Speaker 2: up or doesn't think they should, or the other persons

753
00:39:30,999 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 2: are a stepping and that generalizes to all kinds of

754
00:39:33,879 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: situations where there's a third party and someone gets stuck

755
00:39:36,319 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 2: in the middle. It's a person who's stuck in the

756
00:39:37,919 --> 00:39:40,639
Speaker 2: middle who needs to be speaking up more, usually one

757
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: way or the other. Okay, next one, Dear therapists, I'm

758
00:39:44,799 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: forty six years old and I'm about to move from

759
00:39:47,799 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: where I've lived for all my life and where my

760
00:39:49,799 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 2: kids and family are. I'm moving to Nevada because my

761
00:39:52,479 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: boyfriend of one and a half years got a job

762
00:39:54,399 --> 00:39:56,559
Speaker 2: down there and it seemed like he was the one.

763
00:39:56,839 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: So I found a job and started preparing to move

764
00:39:58,919 --> 00:40:01,199
Speaker 2: with my boyfriend. On the morning we were set to

765
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: fly to find a home, he told me he didn't

766
00:40:03,359 --> 00:40:05,519
Speaker 2: want to live with me anymore and he isn't in

767
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:07,919
Speaker 2: love with me. I had already quit my job and

768
00:40:07,959 --> 00:40:11,079
Speaker 2: had accepted a job in Reno. I was devastated, but

769
00:40:11,159 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 2: not surprised. He had been dropping hints for weeks, and

770
00:40:13,839 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: I chose to ignore them, blaming them on anxiety in

771
00:40:16,799 --> 00:40:19,639
Speaker 2: the stress of preparing to move. The twist in the

772
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:22,639
Speaker 2: story is that my ex boyfriend had learned I was

773
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:25,599
Speaker 2: moving to Reno with someone new, and instead of giving up,

774
00:40:25,639 --> 00:40:28,679
Speaker 2: he aggressively tried to get me back. Two hours after

775
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: my break up with my current boyfriend, I had a

776
00:40:30,759 --> 00:40:34,039
Speaker 2: marriage proposal and an invitation to visit him in New York,

777
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:36,639
Speaker 2: where he now lives. I went to New York, but

778
00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:40,639
Speaker 2: I'm feeling completely numb. The irony is I always complained

779
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:43,559
Speaker 2: that he was emotionally unavailable, but now it's me who

780
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: has become emotionally unavailable. My decision as of right now

781
00:40:47,359 --> 00:40:49,679
Speaker 2: is to move to Reno on my own. I'm excited

782
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:52,079
Speaker 2: about the job down there, and I have been desperately

783
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:55,599
Speaker 2: wanting to leave Montana since my marriage ended. My question is,

784
00:40:55,999 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 2: how did I become so emotionally unavailable? My ex boyfriend

785
00:40:59,879 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: is offering everything I wanted him to when we were together,

786
00:41:02,399 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 2: plus a very nice life in New York. My question

787
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: is am I going through a midlife crisis? I feel

788
00:41:08,319 --> 00:41:10,599
Speaker 2: like Reno offers me a fresh start and maybe a

789
00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: way to get back in touch with myself.

790
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: Well this is interesting because you know, we see this

791
00:41:17,319 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: a lot where somebody is unavailable and then the other

792
00:41:21,799 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: person becomes unavailable and suddenly they're very available. Right So

793
00:41:26,479 --> 00:41:28,919
Speaker 1: here the person who wrote the letter that boyfriend had

794
00:41:28,919 --> 00:41:32,079
Speaker 1: been unavailable to her and then when he found out

795
00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: that she was moving in with someone else, suddenly he

796
00:41:34,439 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: wants her back, and the two hours after the breakup

797
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: there's a marriage proposal. All of a sudden move to Reno.

798
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: Explore the relationship from afar, take lots of time. She

799
00:41:45,399 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: just got out of this other relationship, take lots of

800
00:41:47,839 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 1: time to see what happened with the other boyfriend, why

801
00:41:50,999 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: he's suddenly emotionally available seemingly So would she get to

802
00:41:55,439 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: New York and find that he's not emotionally available again.

803
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,999
Speaker 1: So I really feel like she has to do what

804
00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:04,199
Speaker 1: she needs to do and explore this very slowly.

805
00:42:04,479 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 2: From afar, I would bet that had she decided to

806
00:42:08,919 --> 00:42:12,039
Speaker 2: go to New York and try it with this marriage proposal,

807
00:42:12,319 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: she would find that he very soon would start to

808
00:42:14,759 --> 00:42:18,679
Speaker 2: become emotionally unavailable again because there was a reason that

809
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 2: didn't work out the first time. I'm not hearing anything

810
00:42:21,359 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 2: from him about, oh, here's what would be different for

811
00:42:23,439 --> 00:42:25,599
Speaker 2: me this time. It's just wait. But I don't want

812
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: to lose you, so maybe we'll do this. And I

813
00:42:28,759 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: agree the advice should be go to Reno as you're

814
00:42:31,319 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: planning to do. If he's that intent, if he's that serious,

815
00:42:34,759 --> 00:42:38,039
Speaker 2: if he's that emotionally available right now, he will tolerate

816
00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: the distance and welcome the relationship with enough time to

817
00:42:40,799 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 2: give you a sense that actually it's solid and he

818
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:46,039
Speaker 2: means it. But in my experience, in my practice, when

819
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,599
Speaker 2: I hear these stories all the time, it often not

820
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: always often swings right back the minute the person says okay,

821
00:42:53,279 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 2: so now I'm here, and then the person goes like,

822
00:42:54,999 --> 00:42:57,679
Speaker 2: oh wait, commitment issues again, and then it.

823
00:42:59,319 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: That's right. We have an episode in season two somebody's

824
00:43:02,759 --> 00:43:05,679
Speaker 1: asking if he should get back with his ex partner.

825
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:08,039
Speaker 1: One of the things that's really important that we ask

826
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:10,519
Speaker 1: people to do is to say, have they articulated what

827
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,679
Speaker 1: would be different this time? Have they articulated what didn't work,

828
00:43:14,919 --> 00:43:18,079
Speaker 1: what they've learned about themselves, why they behaved the way

829
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:23,199
Speaker 1: they behaved, whether it was being emotionally distant, being emotionally clingy,

830
00:43:23,279 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 1: being emotionally abusive, not having boundaries, whatever the issues were,

831
00:43:28,919 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: What is going to be different this time? And if

832
00:43:30,879 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: nobody can articulate that on both sides, what would be different?

833
00:43:33,879 --> 00:43:37,599
Speaker 1: What have you each learned about yourselves and would what

834
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: is the goal of getting back together? Not just I

835
00:43:40,479 --> 00:43:44,119
Speaker 1: miss you. I think that that's really important. And here

836
00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:45,999
Speaker 1: we have you know again, we don't know any other

837
00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: information than what's in this letter, so on the podcast

838
00:43:48,399 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: we would really dig into this. But the marriage proposal

839
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,519
Speaker 1: two hours after she had broken up with the other

840
00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,599
Speaker 1: guy is in my mind something to be wary of thanks.

841
00:43:57,639 --> 00:43:59,599
Speaker 3: That was so much fun to get a glimpse into

842
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:02,999
Speaker 3: some of those letters. Thank you for sharing. I really

843
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:06,199
Speaker 3: am so thankful that you two joined us in supported

844
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 3: Avid Bookshop and all of us who are here. This

845
00:44:10,399 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 3: has been a great honor for me and for the attendees,

846
00:44:13,279 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 3: and I know for the people who will listen to

847
00:44:14,799 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 3: this podcast. So thank you so much. So thank you guys,

848
00:44:18,759 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 3: thank you Laurie.

849
00:44:19,799 --> 00:44:22,199
Speaker 1: Thank you for having us well, thank you so so

850
00:44:22,279 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: much for having us.

851
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 2: Next week, a woman's resentment of her financially successful brother

852
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 2: threatens to tear apart their relationship.

853
00:44:34,319 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 4: They have a lot of freedom, they have a lot

854
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,039
Speaker 4: of time to spend, they have a lot of money.

855
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:44,199
Speaker 4: They just they have all these things and we don't

856
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 4: have those things. Yeah, I wish I had those things too.

857
00:44:47,999 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the thing.

858
00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 4: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

859
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,639
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

860
00:45:00,839 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

861
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Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

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Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

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Speaker 1: our podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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Speaker 2: Bigo smore, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

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Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

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Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

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Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.