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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist's Advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy Advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 2: Hey Guy, Hey Laurie. So today we're going to do

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Speaker 2: something a little bit different.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Recently we did a live event where we got to

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Speaker 1: share how we do these your therapist sessions every week

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Speaker 1: and what we're really thinking when we're trying to help

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Speaker 1: all of you through the issues that you bring us.

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Speaker 2: We also dipped into our mailbox and gave advice to

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Speaker 2: some letters you sent us. So this week here's a

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Speaker 2: treat Deotherapists Live. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back after a quick break.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Guy Wench, and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 4: My name is Janet Gattis. I am the owner and

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Speaker 4: founder of Avid Bookshop here in Athens, Georgia. Welcome, good evening,

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Speaker 4: and welcome to our very special event with Guy Wench

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Speaker 4: and Laurie Gottlieb from the podcast Dear Therapists. Both of

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Speaker 4: these people are stellar therapists, hosts of their own podcast,

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Speaker 4: and have written multiple books.

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Speaker 3: First off, I.

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Speaker 4: Am so excited that the new season of Dear Therapists

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Speaker 4: just launched. As of yesterday, already heard the episode twice

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Speaker 4: and as with every other episode of the show that

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Speaker 4: I've heard. I'm really curious to know sort of the

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Speaker 4: background of how you to process the number of letters

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Speaker 4: you get, how many letters you get, and how you

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Speaker 4: choose ultimately what gets on the show. Would you guys

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Speaker 4: answer that for us?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, just thank you for doing this

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Speaker 1: and having us. We were so excited to have this conversation,

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Speaker 1: especially launch week. We get so many letters, and going

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Speaker 1: into season two, one of the things we've always said

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Speaker 1: is what made season one so great, or the quality

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Speaker 1: of the letters that we got from people all over

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Speaker 1: the world. We wish we could do all of them.

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Speaker 1: It would be great. We would just have a million episodes,

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Speaker 1: But we really pick letters that we feel have some

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Speaker 1: universal quality to them. So while each letter is very

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Speaker 1: specific to a situation, like in the first episode it

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Speaker 1: was about Instagram cheating, it really was about so many

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Speaker 1: other things and I think you'll find that in every

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Speaker 1: single episode. The one thing that's interesting about it is

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Speaker 1: that we don't actually discuss the letters. So even though

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Speaker 1: we will choose letters, we don't actually know before we

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Speaker 1: start talking on that episode what we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about. We don't say we think this might happen

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Speaker 1: in this episode, or let's discuss how we think about

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Speaker 1: this letter.

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Speaker 3: We don't do any of that.

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Speaker 1: We act like someone has just walked into our therapy

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Speaker 1: room and we're hearing this for the very first time.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what makes the show so dynamic

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Speaker 1: is that it's not scripted. There's no agenda that we

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Speaker 1: have in mind beforehand. We're just like, here's the letter.

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Speaker 1: We have no idea what's going to happen. The audience

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Speaker 1: has no idea what's going to happen, and here we go.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, that's what makes it scary also

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Speaker 2: for us, you know, a therapist, because we're there, we

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Speaker 2: really don't know what the other person is thinking. We

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Speaker 2: don't know where it's going to go. The actual session

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Speaker 2: might go in a very different direction.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, that's exciting. Had either of you done

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Speaker 4: sort of therapy with a therapeutic partner before, Like, how

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Speaker 4: did you go about knowing who's going to speak when

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Speaker 4: and what kind of feedback you would give in tandem?

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Speaker 2: We don't. That's what's.

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Speaker 3: We don't at all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but I think that that's what's so great

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Speaker 1: is that when so what a lot of people might

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Speaker 1: not know is that when therapists train, often you get

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Speaker 1: feedback in a certain way on your session, So some

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Speaker 1: people might be behind a one way mirror, or you

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Speaker 1: tape your sessions and record them and you bring them

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Speaker 1: to your supervisor. All of this, of course with the

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Speaker 1: consent of the client, but once you're in private practice,

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Speaker 1: you don't get that anyway. Really, And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that's so interesting about working with Guy is to

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Speaker 1: see how he works. He makes me a better therapist.

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Speaker 1: I think watching a direction he goes, or where I

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Speaker 1: might get stuck somewhere, He'll jump in, and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: I think if he is sort of going somewhere and

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Speaker 1: the person is stuck there, I'll jump in. And so

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Speaker 1: we really tag team really well. Even though we can't

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Speaker 1: read each other's minds. Even if sometimes I think where

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Speaker 1: is he going with this, I'm confident that wherever he's

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Speaker 1: going is too an important place.

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Speaker 2: And I can say that I've many times over this

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Speaker 2: past you know, a year and a half since we

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Speaker 2: started working together, in my own sessions that I do

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Speaker 2: in my own private practice, I'll get to a moment

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Speaker 2: where I literally say to myself in my head, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do a lor here, and then I do

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Speaker 2: a thing that I think Lauri would do because I

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Speaker 2: was I think that's a good place, and she does

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Speaker 2: that thing. Well, I'm going to do Lauri here, and

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Speaker 2: I have that in my head. Many times I'm like, yep,

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Speaker 2: thank for a LORI right there. That's great.

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Speaker 4: One thing that I find really out about it is

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Speaker 4: that I was just texting a friend about this last night,

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Speaker 4: about recommending episodes of season one for her, and one

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Speaker 4: of the things I pointed out was that even if

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Speaker 4: the name of the episode and the description sound like

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Speaker 4: this person, I don't have any strange daughter, I don't

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Speaker 4: have any kids at all, I'm not going to get

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Speaker 4: a lot out of this episode. Every single episode there

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Speaker 4: are these gems and takeaways that are impacting me, a single,

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Speaker 4: forty one year old woman who doesn't have any kids.

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Speaker 4: So it's just really interesting to me how you can

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Speaker 4: tell very much that you too are hyper focused on

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Speaker 4: the client in the virtual room, yet so many of

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Speaker 4: the things that you share are really applicable to so

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Speaker 4: many of us. And that brings me to a question

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Speaker 4: about sort of how the pandemic has affected the sorts

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Speaker 4: of therapy you do in dear therapists or in your

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Speaker 4: private practices. I know that the show launched sort of

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Speaker 4: as COVID was a thing in the world, but how

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Speaker 4: have you noticed the nature of people's concerns or worries

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Speaker 4: letters shift over the last year or so.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say before we talk about

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Speaker 1: COVID that what you were saying earlier about how applicable

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Speaker 1: each episode is to everyone, because relationships are relationships in

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Speaker 1: the world. Whether it's relationship to self, relationship to friends,

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Speaker 1: to family, to siblings, to romantic partners, to bosses to coworkers,

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Speaker 1: they're all relationships. And so I remember in season one,

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Speaker 1: early on, we had a couple on and this was

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Speaker 1: a married couple, they had kids, they'd been married for

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Speaker 1: a while, and this young woman in her early twenties

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Speaker 1: wrote in and she said, I'm not married yet, I

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Speaker 1: don't have kids yet, but I use the advice with

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Speaker 1: my boss at work and it was amazing. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that that's the kind of response that we've

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Speaker 1: been getting all through season one and we hope to

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Speaker 1: continue through season two. Is that even if you look

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Speaker 1: at the title of the episode and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not my situation, I would really encourage people to

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Speaker 1: listen to the episodes because our goal in putting them

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Speaker 1: out there is to make these sessions accessible to everyone.

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Speaker 1: Not everybody can or wants to go to a therapist,

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Speaker 1: but you can get so much out of one conversation

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Speaker 1: if you see yourself in some element of the struggle,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it is the things that you

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Speaker 1: can use in your daily life, no matter who you are,

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Speaker 1: how old you are, what your situation is, and that's

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Speaker 1: what we love about the show.

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Speaker 2: And as therapists, we're trained to ask questions such as, so,

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Speaker 2: why are you doing the thing that you're doing, or

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Speaker 2: what are you hoping to achieve? Or how did that

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Speaker 2: get set up for you in your earlier relationships or

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Speaker 2: in your childhood, And then that is crafted around a

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Speaker 2: specific issue perhaps, but the question is relevant in a

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Speaker 2: much more general way, and people hear that and they're

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Speaker 2: asking ourselves that question in the context of their own lives.

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Speaker 2: And that's why you can learn a lot from it,

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Speaker 2: because it's really about how to think about yourself, how

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Speaker 2: to think about your situation, how to think about your patterns,

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Speaker 2: how to think about the impact of earlier experiences, And

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Speaker 2: that's generalized as to everyone.

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Speaker 4: Truly, So thinking keeping all that in mind, does that

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Speaker 4: mean that maybe COVID era letters maybe weren't all that

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Speaker 4: different at heart from what you had been getting previously.

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Speaker 1: I think they weren't that different. I mean many of

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Speaker 1: them touched on how COVID was impacting these people, whether

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Speaker 1: it was in a marriage, or we had a teacher

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Speaker 1: who couldn't be with her students and how that was

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Speaker 1: impacting her. Whatever people were going through before the pandemic

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Speaker 1: was amplified. So if they were, if a relationship was

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Speaker 1: very strong, it got stronger. If a relationship was struggling,

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Speaker 1: or things were not discussed. This really came to light

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Speaker 1: during COVID. Really, what we're dealing with is just the

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Speaker 1: human condition. And yes, there are going to be big

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Speaker 1: events like COVID or you know, other things that happened,

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Speaker 1: But really what we're dealing with is how do we

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Speaker 1: deal with the daily stuff of life.

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Speaker 4: And speaking of people's personal stories, both of you in

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Speaker 4: your talks and your books and occasionally in interviews I've

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Speaker 4: I heard you'll reveal personal things about your own lives.

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Speaker 4: How do you decide what you want to reveal to

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Speaker 4: an audience where you don't know who's there, and how

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Speaker 4: do you sort of ride the line of being someone

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Speaker 4: like I'd never met you until today, but I trust

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Speaker 4: you both very much. But until you saw my face,

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Speaker 4: you would never have known who I was passing you

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Speaker 4: on the street. How do you balance that role of

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Speaker 4: where people feel like they know you, but you really

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Speaker 4: are still just a therapist to them, Like, how does

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Speaker 4: that play out in your careers in different aspects.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because in Maybe You Should talk to Someone.

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Speaker 1: In my most recent book, I follow the lives of

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Speaker 1: four very different patients, and then there's a fifth patient

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Speaker 1: in the book who is me as I go through

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Speaker 1: my own therapy with my therapist, and I say at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the book that my greatest credential is

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Speaker 1: that I am a card caring member of the human race.

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Speaker 1: That I know what it's like to be a person

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Speaker 1: in the world, and I didn't want to present myself

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Speaker 1: as sort of the expert up on high. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like that translates over into the podcast, because you know,

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Speaker 1: we're sitting here talking about our personal lives in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: but we use our personal experience to connect with people

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Speaker 1: on a very human level. We obviously are using our

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Speaker 1: training and our expertise and everything that we have learned

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Speaker 1: as therapists, but we're also relating to people just human

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Speaker 1: to human, and I think that's what makes the episode

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Speaker 1: so compelling, and I think that's what makes therapy so compelling.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing. People will come up to me

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Speaker 2: sometimes will recognize me from either Ted Talks or the

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Speaker 2: podcast or writing or different things, and they will come

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Speaker 2: up to me as if, as you said, is if

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Speaker 2: they know me when I don't know them, and this

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Speaker 2: in essence, they don't really know me. But it's there's

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Speaker 2: something that I So far in my experience, people have

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Speaker 2: been very respectful. They feel a certain affinity, a certain

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Speaker 2: fondness because if they heard something it might have touched

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Speaker 2: them or it might have resonated with them. We've been

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Speaker 2: very fortunate in that way. At the second speak to

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Speaker 2: my experience that when that does happen, when I do

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Speaker 2: pass people in the street and they stop me, or

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Speaker 2: in a restaurant, an airport, once in the gym in

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Speaker 2: the shadow but that's a different one, and.

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Speaker 1: In the broad department of a department store just like why.

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Speaker 2: But thankfully it's been friendly and so those are okay,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's funny.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe you should talk to someone.

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Speaker 1: I say that therapists are like Dalist celebrities, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like the only people to whom they are, they're.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh my gosh, you know who that is? Who

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Speaker 3: I just saw in the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: Is the people who have come to see us, right,

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Speaker 1: or the people who maybe read our books or listen

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Speaker 1: to podcast.

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Speaker 3: I don't you know.

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Speaker 1: Obviously from the podcast you don't see us, so you

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Speaker 1: only hear our voices. But I've actually had people recognize

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Speaker 1: my voice from across a restaurant.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'm just a loud talker. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But like guys said, I think people, I think they

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Speaker 1: feel a connection because they've been moved very personally in

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Speaker 1: these very intimate conversations by something that we've put out there.

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Speaker 3: And so that's I think incredibly meaningful to us.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate the fact that we have touched somebody's life

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Speaker 1: in that way.

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Speaker 3: That's beautiful.

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Speaker 4: And speaking of that again, writing the line between really

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Speaker 4: knowing someone versus only interacting with them. On this one episode,

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Speaker 4: I've been really curious about the letter writers who end

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Speaker 4: up being featured on the show. What is that the

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Speaker 4: vetting process like in order to figure out if yes,

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Speaker 4: this is the letter writer we want, and then what

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Speaker 4: kind of conversations and things do they need to keep

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Speaker 4: in mind when they are putting their voices out there,

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Speaker 4: even if they are kind of masking identifying details.

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Speaker 2: What people need to know, especially people who are writing

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Speaker 2: in is that, as in a therapy session, you can

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Speaker 2: come with issue A, but everything has to be on

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Speaker 2: the table because if we think issue A is related

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Speaker 2: to other things, we want to be able to explore

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Speaker 2: those things and we want to be able to ask

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Speaker 2: questions about those things. And therapy is a very non

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Speaker 2: linear process. Its zigzags all over the place because connections

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Speaker 2: are made in patents identified by doing that, and that's

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Speaker 2: kind of what we do within the podcast, And so

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Speaker 2: we edit out any identifying information, So people use pseudonyms

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Speaker 2: in that way. I think people can remain anonymous, but

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Speaker 2: they have to be able to truly open their hearts

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Speaker 2: as you do when you go to therapy.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciate how in the shows we can't see

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Speaker 4: you two or the person you're speaking with, but you

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Speaker 4: both do a really good job of saying like, I

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Speaker 4: see your eyes are filling with tears, or you looked

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Speaker 4: away from us just then. But yeah, I just really

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Speaker 4: love those moments where you kind of let us have

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Speaker 4: a peek into what's going on for that client.

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Speaker 1: We say that as much for the audience as we

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Speaker 1: do for the person that we're talking to. So sometimes

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Speaker 1: people don't even realize that they're tearing up, so we

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Speaker 1: want to have them slow down in that moment. Say

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Speaker 1: I notice that you're tearing up. What are you feeling

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Speaker 1: right now? What just came up for you? Because people

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Speaker 1: will just go right over that because they don't want

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Speaker 1: they don't want to notice that, and we want to

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Speaker 1: slow them down so that they do notice it. So

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Speaker 1: because something important just happened there. If they smile, sometimes

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Speaker 1: people don't even notice that they experienced joy or that something,

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Speaker 1: you know, something really resonated with them. So say, I

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Speaker 1: noticed you smiling there, so I think that that resonated

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Speaker 1: with you. So it's for both. It's actually what we

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Speaker 1: would do in a regular therapy session too.

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Speaker 3: I like that a lot.

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Speaker 4: I know, even in I won't spoil it for anyone

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Speaker 4: who's not already heard the first episode of season two

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Speaker 4: there's a moment there where I was surprised by what

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Speaker 4: you observed in the letter writer, and I hadn't expected

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Speaker 4: you to say you saw on her face what you saw,

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Speaker 4: And that was kind of a fascinating moment to hear

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Speaker 4: her saying, kind of reflect on what you're bringing up.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciated that.

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Speaker 4: My mom is here at this event too, and she

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Speaker 4: and I listened to on season one, Jeff's critical parents

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Speaker 4: on the way back from a road trip, and I

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Speaker 4: very am, very thankful I have great parents who are

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Speaker 4: not critical of me and are positive. But it was

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Speaker 4: fascinating to listen into that with her. And then afterward

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Speaker 4: I realized that that storyline echoed in several loved ones

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Speaker 4: in my life, so I was able to send that

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Speaker 4: episode to them. But I think that one in particular,

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Speaker 4: I remember hearing the moments where you're pointing out how

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Speaker 4: he's reacting in the moment. I think you also do

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Speaker 4: such a great job for the audience. I know it's

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Speaker 4: for the client, but it helps us a lot when

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Speaker 4: you kind of catch like the tone someone's using with himself,

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Speaker 4: or the way that he's speaking about a certain scenario,

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Speaker 4: and how the roles are changing. I just find it

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Speaker 4: so fascinating. So a lot of all of us are

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Speaker 4: made up of stories. And Guy and I were talking

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Speaker 4: a little bit before we started recording about how he

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Speaker 4: worked as a bookseller. I think as an adolescent. Laurie

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Speaker 4: has done a thing that we linked to on our

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Speaker 4: Instagram a couple weeks ago written an article on bibliotherapy,

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Speaker 4: which is the process of using books and the written

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Speaker 4: word to help people get better in touch with themselves

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Speaker 4: and their emotions. Can you talk a little bit about

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Speaker 4: some books that you have recommended for particular clients and

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Speaker 4: why it's.

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Speaker 2: Really wonderful When you have a book in mind that

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Speaker 2: you think would be really useful for a specific person,

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Speaker 2: it always feels like, oh, I have the perfect thing

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Speaker 2: for you. One book that I recommend a lot to

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Speaker 2: expecting parents who are expecting for the first time is

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Speaker 2: a book called Welcome to the Club one hundred Parenting

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Speaker 2: Milestones You Never saw coming. It's by a comic called

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Speaker 2: Rakeldia Piece. She's actually an Emmy Award winning writer. But

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Speaker 2: it's a wonderful book because it's hilarious, but it's about

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Speaker 2: everything that goes wrong, and the idea there is that

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Speaker 2: parents are so terrified to bring home this baby for

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Speaker 2: the first time, and they think that anytime they do

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Speaker 2: something wrong, it's terrible, and they don't realize that everyone

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Speaker 2: goes through it, and all parents make all these mistakes,

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Speaker 2: and in the humor it normalizes, it humanizes, and I

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Speaker 2: find that people when they read that, it just lows

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Speaker 2: their anxiety tremendously by the humor of it. So that's

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Speaker 2: one book I love recommending.

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Speaker 1: I actually never thought I would become a therapist growing up,

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Speaker 1: but I was an avid reader. And how this relates

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Speaker 1: to your question is that I always found that novels

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Speaker 1: were the really good ones, the ones that I would

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Speaker 1: think about, the ones I would reread at different stages

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Speaker 1: of my life, really had these deep psychological truths embedded

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Speaker 1: in them. And that's what made for the kinds of

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Speaker 1: characters that really lived inside of you. And I think

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Speaker 1: when you're reading a novel and you have those moments

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Speaker 1: of that's me, I see myself. I'm not alone, and

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Speaker 1: you think you were the only person who felt that,

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Speaker 1: did that, thought that, and this character does things, says

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Speaker 1: the same things.

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Speaker 3: It's such an amazing moment of connection.

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Speaker 1: And that's what books have always been for me, and

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Speaker 1: so later when I became a therapist, I was always

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Speaker 1: recommending books. Even in my training when they said, oh,

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Speaker 1: don't recommend books. You can't do that because you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be very neutral, and I was always like, are

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Speaker 1: you crazy, Like you know, books are therapy, and that's

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Speaker 1: why I wrote that New York Times piece about bibliotherapy.

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Speaker 1: So I really tailor my book suggestions to the particular person.

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Speaker 3: It's something that comes up in the moment where.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm like an encyclopedia with books, and so

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Speaker 1: someone says the thing, I'm like, wait a minute, stop,

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Speaker 1: if there's this book you have to read. So for me,

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Speaker 1: it's less nonfiction than it is great novels. But I

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Speaker 1: will recommend nonfiction if there's something particular, like someone's struggling with,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the themes even that we see

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, but also in the therapy room, estrangement

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Speaker 1: partners who maybe have some characteristics of personality disorders, or

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Speaker 1: family members who do books about In fact, guy just

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Speaker 1: recommended a great book on We just taped an episode

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Speaker 1: for season two where he recommended a book on anxiety

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Speaker 1: to the person and she found it so useful even

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Speaker 1: just starting the book that first week. So books can

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Speaker 1: be incredibly healing and informative at the same time.

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Speaker 2: By the way, the book the Loid just Reference is

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Speaker 2: called The Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boyce. I also get

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Speaker 2: a lot of recommendations from my patients because they will

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Speaker 2: come in and they're like, oh my god, I read

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Speaker 2: something and it was so helpful, and I'm like, tell

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Speaker 2: me what it is, and I'll write it down and

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Speaker 2: I'll check it out, and it's very useful in general.

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Speaker 1: I had that experience with maybe you should talk to someone,

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Speaker 1: where interestingly, a lot of therapists did not know about

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Speaker 1: it at the beginning. It was general public kind of book,

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Speaker 1: and so many therapists said, I heard about your book

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Speaker 1: because a client brought it in and they were talking

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Speaker 1: about it, and I had to read it because they

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Speaker 1: kept talking about it every week, and so it didn't

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Speaker 1: go from therapist to client. It went from client to therapist.

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Speaker 1: So guys write books do go in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 4: That's funny. Yeah, I'm a huge fiction reader, and I

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Speaker 4: remember for a while in my mid twenties when I

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Speaker 4: wasn't sure what my career was going to be. I

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Speaker 4: was like am I do. I want to be a

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Speaker 4: therapist because that's what I love the most about reading novels.

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Speaker 4: I do not hold the degrees that you have or

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Speaker 4: the experience, but there is such an element to working

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Speaker 4: in an independent bookstore where we get to know our

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Speaker 4: community members, and I and my staff are really good

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Speaker 4: at reading the emotions on someone's face and kind of

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Speaker 4: helping them figure out what the next book is it's

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Speaker 4: going to kind of help them move forward.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the things I love about independent booksellers

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Speaker 1: is that you walk in and they know you, and

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Speaker 1: if they don't already know you, they will talk to

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Speaker 1: you until they do know you. Every book that I

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Speaker 1: have gotten as a recommendation from an independent bookstore has

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Speaker 1: always been one of the books that stays on my

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Speaker 1: bookshelf forever because I think there's that personal element. Just

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Speaker 1: like therapists can very personally suggest something, so can independent booksellers.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 2: a quick break.

438
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 4: A lot of the time I've heard you recommend to

439
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 4: people that they write a letter or do some sort

440
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 4: of introspective work that requires them to do a letter

441
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 4: to themselves a journal entry, rewriting their own biography. How

442
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 4: does writing help your clients in you and how do

443
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 4: you use that as a tool in your therapy.

444
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 2: The people who come on our show, they're not our

445
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: clients by definition, their guests on the show. Writing is

446
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: a very very powerful tool because it uses all kinds

447
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: of parts of the brain. It's not just the idea

448
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: that you have that has to be translated then into

449
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: various specific words that have to follow grammatical rules. You

450
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 2: need to find motor skills to type it or write it.

451
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 2: And when you're trying to get someone to think differently

452
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: about a task or to discover something about themselves, giving

453
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: them a writing task affords them a certain level of

454
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: emotional and psychological distance because by the time it gets

455
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: translated into the written word, they are experiencing what the

456
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: thought might have been very emotional and difficult. By the

457
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: time they write it, they have a layer of distance

458
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: from it, which gives them that little measure of objectivity,

459
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: that little different kind of perspective that will allow them

460
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 2: to potentially see this in a new way. So it's

461
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 2: a tool that therapists use literally all the time. Then

462
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: we use it in very different ways for different people

463
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: in different situations. We use it in the show, of course,

464
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: all the time, because it's very very useful and impactful

465
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: to really see something in a different way than you

466
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: might if you were just thinking about it.

467
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 1: I think what happens is people come on the show

468
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: and they'll often say, I've been dealing with this problem

469
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: for years, and they're stuck and they don't know how

470
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: to get unstuck, and you need to get them out

471
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: of whatever they're doing which hasn't been working. I think

472
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: that most people truly know what they need to do.

473
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: They just don't know what's getting in the way of

474
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: doing the thing that they need to do. And what

475
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: we do is we help them to do that through

476
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: these various exercises. And just because it's a writing assignment

477
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's the same. No two writing assignments are

478
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: the same, and we don't suggest a writing assignment on

479
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: every podcast, obviously, but when we do, it's very unique

480
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: to that person and their situation. There are no two

481
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: episodes where they have exactly the same homework assignment. I

482
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: was a competitive chess player growing up, and one of

483
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: the things that was really important was how do you

484
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: get in there, which if I make this move, they're

485
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: going to make this move, and then uh oh, I

486
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: better adjust my plan and make this move. Guy and

487
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: I are constantly thinking it's very strategic when we're doing this.

488
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: How do we get this person to the place that

489
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: they need to go in order to have things change

490
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: for them? Because really the show is about change and

491
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: growth and healing and transformation, and we only have one

492
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: session to do that. We want to get as far

493
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: as we can. And what we've been so surprised by

494
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: is that even with that one session, people are able

495
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: to make significant shifts in their lives. And in season

496
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: two we have where are They Now? Episodes where we

497
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: take the season one guest so we don't just get

498
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: the week update, but we get a year long update

499
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: and we find out where are they a year later?

500
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: And it's been so gratifying. I don't want to spoil it.

501
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: Guys looking at me giving me the look like, don't

502
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: say it, because we have heard them now we know

503
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: where everybody is. But we are just blown away by it,

504
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: and we think people are going to be so moved

505
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: when they hear you know where people are a year

506
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: later after having just one conversation not because we're so great,

507
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: but because.

508
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 3: We move them to a new place and then they

509
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: took it from there.

510
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 4: That's beautiful. There's one episode in season one where you

511
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 4: have a letter writer explore a situation in his life

512
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 4: from his ex spouse's point of view, and I was

513
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 4: wondering if you could talk a little bit about, because

514
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: we have a lot of readers in the audience right now,

515
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 4: just that change of point of view and how that

516
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: type of exercise in particular can help shift someone's perspective.

517
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 2: That was an exercise in perspective taking. That was a

518
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: person who had cheated on his wife and then left

519
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 2: her for that person, think a month after the birth

520
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: of their second child. And this person was actually a

521
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: good person, but they really had trouble connecting to the

522
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 2: ex wife's perspective of how their actions must have felt

523
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: to her. And when we asked about it, you could

524
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: see that there was a wish to connect, but he

525
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: couldn't articulate or see it from her perspective, and so

526
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: we literally took him through an exercise that some of

527
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 2: the feedback that we've gotten was, Wow, that sounded so difficult.

528
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: It was emotionally very challenging. Because he ritually had to

529
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: put himself in her shoes and look and see the

530
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: impact of his actions on her and tell story. The

531
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: exercise was from her point of view, from the beginning

532
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: of meeting him, through the marriage, and through the cheatings.

533
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: So it was a very difficult exercise, but he was

534
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,239
Speaker 2: really gained to do it, and he was brave to

535
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: do it, and it was painful for him, but he

536
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: eventually got there and was able to connect with her

537
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: perspective in a way he really hadn't been able to

538
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: despite thinking about this for a very, very long time.

539
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: This was the episode called Mike's Messy Affair, and we

540
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: really wanted to go with that letter because I think

541
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: so many people make assumptions right away. He was basically

542
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: asking what the cultural assumption was in his letter, which was,

543
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, as Guy says in the episode, so this

544
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: is a tell me I'm not a scumbag letter because

545
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: he wants to know everyone thinks I'm a terrible person

546
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: for doing what I did, and you know, my friends

547
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: won't talk to me. Nobody will talk to me all

548
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: of this, and you know, he wanted you know, he

549
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: really was concerned about his children.

550
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 3: Because he didn't want to lose custody of his.

551
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: Children and all of those things. I think that when

552
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: you see the humanity in him, and when you see

553
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 1: him really be able to say, Okay, the reason that

554
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: I can't acknowledge how much pain I've caused is because

555
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: of how much shame I feel around having done what

556
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: I did. I wish that I had handled it differently.

557
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: I think ending the marriage was a good thing, but

558
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: this is, you know, his perspective. I think ending the

559
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: marriage was a good thing, but the way I did

560
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: it was a terrible thing. And for him to go

561
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: through that, and you can see, you know how much

562
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: he's struggling with it. But I also hope that people

563
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: have so much compassion for him and feel, you know,

564
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: just how human he is, and get past the what

565
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: he did and more into the where is he now

566
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: and what is he trying to do now?

567
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 3: With all of this.

568
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 4: I remember that one in particular, making note of my

569
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 4: own reaction to his tone, particularly at the beginning of

570
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: the episode, and I thought like, oh, Janet, you don't

571
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 4: have a right to judge him. But I also was like, oh,

572
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: this guy, wonder what's going to happen, and just hearing

573
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 4: just how his tone shifted and just the journey he

574
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 4: went on was fascinating to me.

575
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: I think with Mike in the episode, he had his

576
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: own struggles too. He was so lonely in that marriage.

577
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: He did not know how to talk to his wife.

578
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: His wife didn't know how to talk with him. They

579
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: both did not know how to communicate. And that's the

580
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: part that's very relatable, is what do you do when

581
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: you've never had that model for you, You don't know

582
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: how to say how.

583
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: Just desperately lonely? You are desperately alone? You feel you know,

584
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: do you cheat?

585
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: No?

586
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: That's a choice, right, But he did, and now he

587
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: knows to do something different. Now he's just learning, well,

588
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: how do I communicate? What would that look like?

589
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: I do want to add when we discussed whether we

590
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: should use that mesa for the show, one of the

591
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: things we thought about, naturally is that, yes, it sounds

592
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: terrible what he did, but he is writing to us.

593
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: He's actually asking for help in resolving that very issue

594
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: of like what is this about me? And how do

595
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: I think about this? And that's a big step forward

596
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: in terms of like, Okay, there's something to work with them,

597
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: because he's actually curious and he actually wants to think

598
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: about these things. So that was what allowed us to

599
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: say yes, and let's work with him.

600
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: You can't help people who aren't curious about themselves. So

601
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: often people will come into therapy and they're very curious

602
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: about other people, like, you know, why does my husband

603
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: do this or you know all these other why does

604
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: my mother do this? As opposed to why do I

605
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: react the way they do? Or what am I doing

606
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: to contribute to the situation, or why am I in

607
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: this relationship in the first place. So when people come

608
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: on the show, we don't know them yet. We hope,

609
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: we cross our fingers that they're going to be very

610
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: curious that they know what the show is, because it's

611
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: a show where if you aren't curious, you're you're going

612
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: to find yourself really struggling when you get in a

613
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: room with guy and with me.

614
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 4: I'm now going to pivot to something you both offered

615
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: to do, which is dive into your letter bag a

616
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: little bit and tell us about a few rights who

617
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 4: maybe weren't featured on the show, but you still want

618
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 4: to address their letters in this format. So take it away.

619
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: I will begin and I'm gonna as we do in

620
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: the show. I'll read this one to Laurie. She will

621
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: be the next one to me. But this is a

622
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: question you get asked a lot, and I think it'd

623
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: be good to just clarify it. Dea LORII and Guy

624
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: I love the podcast and the Atlantic column. What does

625
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: fellow travelers refer to people traveling through life? I feel

626
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: like I missed the reference explanation somewhere because we always

627
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: welcome our listeners to as fellow travelers and our guests

628
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: as fellow travelers. So where is that from?

629
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: So we introduced that in the trailer for season one

630
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: when we started, and we were struggling with what do

631
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: we call the people who come on the show because

632
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: they aren't our actual therapy clients and they aren't really guests,

633
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: because we feel like we get very deeply attached to

634
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: these people in the course of our session with them.

635
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: And I I just spontaneously said to Guy, you know

636
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: irv Yallam, the eminent psychiatrist who's really revolutionized the field

637
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: of psychiatry and therapy by being so human and so

638
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: real with people. You know, he broke down that wall

639
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: and he would call people fellow travelers. He said We're

640
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: all fellow travelers on this journey, you know, therapists and

641
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: patient together. We're fellow travelers trying to figure this out.

642
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: And I just love that. And so we really thought

643
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: that that maybe was the best way to refer to

644
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: the people who come on and share their lives with us.

645
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to another letter, Lorie.

646
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: This is a letter that came into our box.

647
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: It goes like this, Dear therapists, I could really use

648
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: some help navigating my new relationship with my soon to

649
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: be stepdaughter's biomm I've been a mom of my own

650
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: two kids for twelve years and have learned a lot.

651
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm feeling very confident as a mom. My fiance and

652
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: his ex have been parents for three years. I am

653
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: running into a situation where I feel like the biomm

654
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: is overreaching. It's interesting by the way that she calls

655
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: her the biomom as opposed to just their mom. She

656
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: wants to know how our marriage house will be set up,

657
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: what kind of bed their daughter will have, and things

658
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: like whether we have dead bolts on the exterior doors.

659
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: I feel a huge invasion by these requests. Interacting with

660
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: biomom has felt like I'm being interviewed to be a

661
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: babysitter and getting inspected for my safety protocols. I've tried

662
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: to assuage her fears while also establishing some healthy boundaries

663
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: of my house, my rules. But I'm wondering if you

664
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: have any advice for how to navigate conversations with biomm

665
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: that help her unclench her fists of control. Do we

666
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: try to be more open right now to establish trust, or,

667
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: like my instincts suggests, would that just be a precedent

668
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: of biomom having a level of control over our space,

669
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: something I was already very worried about because of the

670
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: way she talks to my fiance. He is a wonderful

671
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: father and very doting. I just wish his ex would

672
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: see that and trust him. I'm just going to start

673
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: here because I'm having a lot of counter time transference

674
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: with this letter. And by the way, that's a very

675
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: real thing, you know, for people who don't know. Counter

676
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: transference is the is the therapist's reaction to what the

677
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: person presents to them. And what this person is missing

678
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: is that she is not the mother of these children.

679
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: She's the mother to her own children, but she is

680
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: not the mother of her fiancee's children, and she's referring

681
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: to these kids' mother as the biomm not even the

682
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: sometimes she's biomm which is kind of like she wants

683
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: her out of the picture. It feels like, and my house,

684
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: my rules. No, these are not your kids. So of

685
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: course the mom wants to know are there dead bolts

686
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: on the doors? And where are they going to be sleeping?

687
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: And what's going to be happening with my children.

688
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: The way she's.

689
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: Going about that is she's making a lot of assumptions

690
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: about her role in this blended family.

691
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: And I will add to that again, we're not talking

692
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: to this person unpacking anything with them. But to me,

693
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: what stands out is that why is she the one

694
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: negotia with bio mom. Why isn't the father of the

695
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: children dealing with his ex wife and coming to know

696
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: agreements with his ex wife about like here's how I

697
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: want to do things, you know. So either he's not

698
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: stepping up the fiance or she's overstepping it's one or

699
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 2: the other. But the solution to it is let him

700
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: deal with BioMA.

701
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: Well, also, I don't know the bio Mom's a problem,

702
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: and I don't know what the fiance wants so nowhere

703
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: in here was my fiance also feels this is a problem.

704
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: So I have a feeling that she feels it's a problem,

705
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: but I don't have any information about does the fiance

706
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: feel it's a problem or is the fiance caught in

707
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: this untenable position of this person that I'm going to

708
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: Mary wants this, my ex wife wants this, and I'm

709
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 1: conflict avoidant, so I don't want to deal with any

710
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: of it.

711
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: Definitely the conflict avoidant, I would guess.

712
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: But yes, yeah, But I would just say this about

713
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: blended families and gentlemen. We've had some full episodes about

714
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: blended families. We had one in season one, and we

715
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: do have another one in season two, different issues. But

716
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: I think that people have to remember that there are

717
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: many parents here. It's not that certain parents get kicked out.

718
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: That everybody is co parenting in a certain way. And

719
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: when people can get along and not try to control

720
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: other people and be really compassionate and emotionally generous with

721
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: one another, it's better for the kids, and it's also

722
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: better for the adults. And this whole like my house,

723
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: my Rules thing screams of just lots of issues around

724
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: control and lack of openness to what the mother of

725
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: these children might be experiencing and might want for her

726
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: own kids.

727
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: And I just want to maybe generalize what I said

728
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: earlier just because I think it's applicable to many situations.

729
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: For example, you know, I hear we get a lot

730
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 2: of issues in the therapy, learn about this person having

731
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble with their in laws when they're

732
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: talking about things with their in laws that they shouldn't

733
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: be talking about with their in laws. The spouse should

734
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: be talking with their parents about them. And when the

735
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: other person is stepping into do that communication and negotiation

736
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: when it's not their place to do it, things often

737
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: go awry. And it's often the issue of the person

738
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: who needs to be doing it is not stepping up

739
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: or doesn't think they should, or the other persons are

740
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: a stepping And that generalizes to all kinds of situations

741
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: where there's a third party and someone gets stuck in

742
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: the middle. It's a person who's stuck in the middle

743
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: who needs to be speaking up more, usually one way

744
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: or the other. Okay, next one, uh, Dear therapists, I'm

745
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: forty six years old and I'm about to move from

746
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: where I've lived for all my life and where my

747
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: kids and family are. I'm moving to Nevada because my

748
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: boyfriend of one and a half years got a job

749
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: down there and it seemed like he was the one.

750
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: So I found a job and started preparing to move

751
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: with my boyfriend. On the morning we were set to

752
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: fly to find a home, he told me he didn't

753
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: want to live with me anymore and he isn't in

754
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: love with me. I had already quit my job and

755
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: had accepted a job in Reno. I was devastated, but

756
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: not surprised. He had been dropping hints for weeks, and

757
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: I chose to ignore them, blaming them and anxiety and

758
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: the stress of preparing to move. The twist in the

759
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: story is that my ex boyfriend had learned I was

760
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: moving to Reno with someone new, and instead of giving up,

761
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: he aggressively tried to get me back. Two hours after

762
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: my breakup with my current boyfriend, I had a marriage

763
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: proposal and an invitation to visit him in New York,

764
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: where he now lives. I went to New York, but

765
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: I'm feeling completely numb. The irony is I always complained

766
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: that he was emotionally unavailable but now it's me who

767
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: has become emotionally unavailable. My decision as of right now

768
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: is to move to Reno on my own. I'm excited

769
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: about the job down there, and I have been desperately

770
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: wanting to leave Montana since my marriage ended. My question is,

771
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: how did that become so emotionally unavailable? My ex boyfriend

772
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: is offering everything I wanted him to when we were together,

773
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: plus a very nice life in New York. My question

774
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: is am I going through a midlife crisis? I feel

775
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: like Reno offers me a fresh start and maybe a

776
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: way to get back in touch with myself.

777
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: Well, this is interesting because we see this a lot,

778
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: where somebody is unavailable and then the other person becomes

779
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: unavailable and suddenly they're very available.

780
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 3: All right.

781
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: So here the person who wrote the letter that boyfriend

782
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: had been unavailable to her and then when he found

783
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: out that she was moving in with someone else, suddenly

784
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: he wants her back, and the two hours after the breakup,

785
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: there's a marriage proposal.

786
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: All of a sudden. Move to Reno.

787
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: Explore the relationship from afar, Take lots of time she

788
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: just got out of this other relationship. Take lots of

789
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: time to see what happened with the other boyfriend, why

790
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: he's suddenly emotionally available seemingly, So would she get to

791
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: New York and find that he's not emotionally available again.

792
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: So I really feel like she has to do what

793
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: she needs to do and explore this very slowly.

794
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: From afar, I would bet that had she decided to

795
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: go to New York and try it with this marriage proposal,

796
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: she would find that he very soon would start to

797
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 2: become emotionally unavailable again because there was a reason it

798
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 2: didn't work out the first time. I'm not hearing anything

799
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: from him about, oh, here's what would be different for

800
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: me this time. It's just wait, But I don't want

801
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: to lose you, so maybe we'll do this. And I

802
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: agree the advice should be go to Reno as you're

803
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: planning to do. If he's that intent, if he's that serious,

804
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: if he's that emotionally available right now, he will tolerate

805
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: the distance and welcome the relationship with enough time to

806
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: give you a sense that actually it's solid and he

807
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 2: means it. But in my experience, in my practice, when

808
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: I hear these stories all the time, it often not

809
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: always often swings right back the minute, the person says okay,

810
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: so now I'm here, and then the person goes like,

811
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: oh wait, commitment issues again, and then it.

812
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: That's right.

813
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: We have an episode in season two somebody's asking if

814
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: he should get back with his ex partner. One of

815
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: the things that's really important that we ask people to

816
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: do is to say, have they articulated what would be

817
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: different this time? Have they articulated what didn't work, what

818
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: they've learned about themselves, why they behave the way they behaved,

819
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: whether it was being emotionally distant, being emotionally clingy, being

820
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive, not having boundaries, whatever the issues were, What is.

821
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: Going to be different this time?

822
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: And if nobody can articulate that on both sides, what

823
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: would be different? What have you each learned about yourselves?

824
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: And would what is the goal of getting back together?

825
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: Not just I miss you. I think that that's really important.

826
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: And here we have you know again, we don't know

827
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: any other information than what's in this letter, so on

828
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: the podcast we would really dig into this. But the

829
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: marriage proposal two hours after she had broken up with

830
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: the other guy is in my mind, something to be

831
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: wary of.

832
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 4: Thanks. That was so much fun to get a glimpse

833
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: into some of those letters. Thank you for sharing. I

834
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: really am so thankful that you two joined us in

835
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 4: supported Avid Bookshop and all of us who are here.

836
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 4: This has been a great honor for me and for

837
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 4: the attendees, and I know for the people who will

838
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 4: listen to this podcast. So thank you so much, so

839
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 4: thank you guys, thank you Laurie.

840
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for having us well, thank you so so

841
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: much for having us.

842
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: Next week. A woman's resentment of her financially successful brother

843
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: threatens to tear apart their relationship.

844
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 5: They have a lot of freedom, they have a lot

845
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 5: of time to spend, they have a lot of money.

846
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 5: They just they have all these things and we don't

847
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 5: have those things. Yeah, I wish I had those things too.

848
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 5: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the thing.

849
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 5: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

850
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

851
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,640
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852
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,239
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854
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855
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,000
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856
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,719
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857
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: Big Go Smooth, email Us at LORII and Guy at

858
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,160
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859
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Noel Brown.

860
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: We're produced and edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and

861
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: Chris Childs. Our interns are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton.

862
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,760
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864
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,400
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865
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,640
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