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Speaker 1: Body Dogs with Joseph Scott More. There are many sayings

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Speaker 1: that we have that have entered into our lexicon over

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Speaker 1: the years, and many times we never really fully appreciate

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Speaker 1: the origin of these common quotes, if you will. There's

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Speaker 1: one that stands out in mind to me, because when

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Speaker 1: I was a little kid, I never really understood it,

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Speaker 1: but you would hear it with some frequency. And when

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Speaker 1: I got in high school and had to take literature

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Speaker 1: classes kind of discover the origin of it. And it's

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Speaker 1: actually from Act five of William Shakespeare's play Richard the Third,

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Speaker 1: And I bet you many of you have heard it.

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Speaker 1: Here goes Are you ready? I'm gonna let's see if

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Speaker 1: I can do my best voice, theatrical voice.

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Speaker 2: Here we go.

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Speaker 1: A horse, a horse my kingdom for a horse. Well,

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Speaker 1: those words, according to Shakespeare, were allegedly uttered by Richard

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Speaker 1: I at the Battle of bosworth Field. This is after

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Speaker 1: his horse had apparently gotten swamped in the mud. He's

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Speaker 1: off of the back of the horse in armor, swinging

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Speaker 1: a saber or maybe a mace or maybe a battle axe,

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Speaker 1: and the enemy is swarming about him like bees. It's

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Speaker 1: on that location that, perhaps, as per Shakespeare, one of

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Speaker 1: the most sinister figures to ever occupy the throne of

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Speaker 1: England died.

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Speaker 2: But here's the trick.

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Speaker 1: What happened to him? For almost five hundred years no

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Speaker 1: one actually knew. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

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Speaker 1: bodybacks dave. I had a surreal moment. I guess it

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Speaker 1: was probably about let me think.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Joe, let me put it in here while you

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Speaker 2: take him minute to try to remember that because this

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Speaker 2: whole story is right in Joe Scott Morgan's wheelhouse. For

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Speaker 2: the rest of us, we might need to do a

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Speaker 2: little catching up. Richard I was born October Tewod fourteen

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Speaker 2: fifty two. He was King of England from June twenty sixth,

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Speaker 2: fourteen eighty three, until his death on the battlefield August

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Speaker 2: twenty second, fourteen eighty five. He was king for just

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Speaker 2: over two years. His defeat and death at the Battle

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Speaker 2: of Bosworthfield marked the end of the Middle Ages in England.

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Speaker 2: After the battle, his remains were paraded through town as

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Speaker 2: there had to be proved that he was dead, and

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Speaker 2: his body was treated with as little respect as possible.

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Speaker 2: Now historians believed his body had just been tossed in

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Speaker 2: a nearby river. His remains were lost, possibly on purpose,

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Speaker 2: for five centuries. However, on today's episode of body Bags,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take you on a trip through time

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Speaker 2: to the battlefield where Richard the Third was killed, to

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Speaker 2: the more recent stories about where his remains would be found,

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Speaker 2: and now that we've found the remains, we can determine

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Speaker 2: what caused his death. I'm not kidding, Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 2: is going to use history and current science to determine

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Speaker 2: what actually happened on the battlefield that caused the death

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Speaker 2: of Richard the Third. Okay, now, Joe, have you been

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Speaker 2: able to remember when you had your surreal moment?

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Speaker 1: I guess it was probably about a year and a

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Speaker 1: half ago. Now, you know, as you will know, you're

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Speaker 1: my buddy. You know where I work full time. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know where Daddy has to go to keep the

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Speaker 1: lights on right and work over Jacksonville State University. And

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Speaker 1: we've been in a building with the Criminal Justice Department

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Speaker 1: of Forensic Science, has been in a building probably for

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Speaker 1: the last fifty or sixty years. It's the same space

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Speaker 1: we always occupied and just I mean, like within the

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Speaker 1: last last semester, we moved into a new building, and

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Speaker 1: it's one of the oldest buildings on campus, but we've

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Speaker 1: repurposed it. You know, We've got like a crime scene

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Speaker 1: house and all this stuff. But I'm not so much

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Speaker 1: interested in what's contained in this new house as to

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Speaker 1: what's on the facade, because I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I had a moment, and since we're talking about something

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Speaker 1: that happened in British history, I was actually gobsmacked, as

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Speaker 1: the Brooks like to say. I looked up at the

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Speaker 1: facing the archway covering the door, and on either side

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Speaker 1: of the door there are four Tudor roses and I

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Speaker 1: almost recognize them immediately because we've talked about it before.

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Speaker 1: I think I like to do genealogy, and my mother's

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Speaker 1: side of the family, who her last name is Edwards,

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Speaker 1: we were able to trace our family history back to Wales,

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Speaker 1: and the family lure is that we descend from one

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Speaker 1: of Henry the eighth illegitimate trysts and that side of

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Speaker 1: the family. And so when I'm going into this new

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Speaker 1: space to occupy and there are Tutor roses outside the building,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what are the odds that this could happen?

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Speaker 1: And this plays into the story of Richard the Third

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Speaker 1: because it was as a result of his death that

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Speaker 1: the Tutors came to power. And you had the House

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Speaker 1: of Lancaster that had a red rose, and you had

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Speaker 1: the House of York that had a white rose, and

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Speaker 1: the fond them both and made the Tutor rose. And

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Speaker 1: so I've always been fascinated by the story, by the play,

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Speaker 1: but more so Dave. This case in modern times has

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Speaker 1: really captured the imagination of people from all over the world,

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Speaker 1: and it solved one of the biggest mysteries arguably and

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Speaker 1: from medieval history. I don't know, it's been it's been

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Speaker 1: a heck of a ride, just kind of following the

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Speaker 1: case all the way along.

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Speaker 2: Having a play written a value by, you know, after

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Speaker 2: you're dead, and that living on more than the history

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Speaker 2: they teach, especially in the United States, where you know,

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Speaker 2: our educational background is not as strong as it ought

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Speaker 2: to be, especially when it comes to these types of things.

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Speaker 2: But okay, with Richard the Third, I look at it

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Speaker 2: and I know the play, and i know he's painted

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Speaker 2: as a villain, and I've read some of the propaganda

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Speaker 2: that is taught as fact, but I don't believe lot

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Speaker 2: of it. I'm not saying he's a good guy or

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Speaker 2: a bad guy or because I don't know. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was five hundred plus years ago. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: on the fourteen fifty. The guy was thirty what thirty

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Speaker 2: two when he died.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, he died at Bosworth.

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Speaker 2: And you look at the whole chain of command there

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Speaker 2: from how he actually became king. And it was not

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Speaker 2: a long rain. It was not a happy rain though.

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Speaker 2: It was a coup deeta that led to him dying

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Speaker 2: on the battlefield. But there was something you mentioned to

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Speaker 2: me right before we started that I didn't know. Right well,

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Speaker 2: I there was enough information about finding his body, because

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Speaker 2: I'll be honest, Joe, I didn't know it was missing, Okay,

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Speaker 2: no clue until I started reading the stories. It's probably

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Speaker 2: the clips to eight or nine, ten years ago now

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Speaker 2: where they talked about how they were able to locate

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Speaker 2: where his body is. It's like, yeah, I'm like, how

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Speaker 2: do you We can't find people you know that are

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Speaker 2: ten years gone. You're talking about hundreds of years and

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Speaker 2: a guy that kind of died. And I'll repute then

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Speaker 2: he's a villain nobody wants, nobody cares about him in

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Speaker 2: a good way enough to look for him. But you

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Speaker 2: mentioned something to me because on the battlefield at his death,

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Speaker 2: guy died on the battlefield as a king.

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Speaker 1: He well, let me tell you this. He was actually

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Speaker 1: do you know, here's a bit of trivia. He was

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Speaker 1: actually the last English king to die in battle.

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Speaker 2: There you go. Didn't know that, but I couldn't think

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Speaker 2: of another one that had and you know, since him

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Speaker 2: right right, But when you think about that, and this

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Speaker 2: is what I meant before we started taping, I was

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Speaker 2: asking Joe, I'm an American. Threw it through when you

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Speaker 2: mentioned Lancaster a minute ago. Yeah, I know Lancaster Avenue

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Speaker 2: in LA I know in North Hollywood, I know right

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Speaker 2: where that is. Nope, no problem, man, But you start

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Speaker 2: mentioning things like that happened in Great Britain. I know

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Speaker 2: you're going to this fall. Yeah, we're going to be.

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Speaker 1: There, kay, yeah, k yeah.

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Speaker 2: Which is really exciting. And I'm hoping that you'll, you know,

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Speaker 2: be able to send us some picks back and some

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Speaker 2: really cool stuff of you walking around to you know,

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Speaker 2: Big Ben and everything else. But the bottom line, always

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Speaker 2: being the bottom line is this is body bags. And

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Speaker 2: in this particular case, they didn't know where the body

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Speaker 2: was to put in the bag. They didn't know what

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Speaker 2: condition the body would be, and when they found it,

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Speaker 2: if they found it, and where they found Richard. The

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Speaker 2: third boggles my mind. Yeah, it was how they found him, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it was it was. It sent shock waves literally

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Speaker 2: all through Great Britain. But here here's the other thing too.

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Speaker 2: You know how I was talking about my own genealogy, right,

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Speaker 2: there are people there are there is an organization out

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Speaker 2: there and I dig this. It's called the Recardian Association

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Speaker 2: or the Recardian I can't remember. Anyway, No disrespect for them,

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Speaker 2: because I'm sorry the Ricky Ricardo.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, not the Ricky. It's the Ricardian Association

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Speaker 1: or organization. Anyway. These people have they viewed themselves well.

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Speaker 1: First off, the there's a core group that believe that

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Speaker 1: they are descended from Richard's line. Okay, and he had

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Speaker 1: sisters and all this sort of thing, which we'll get

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Speaker 1: into in a little bit. But they have always held

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Speaker 1: that something wasn't right with the story. And as you

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Speaker 1: well know, as you well know, and we've heard this

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Speaker 1: time and time again, the victor gets to write the history.

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Speaker 1: And here's here's one thing that we do one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that back during these times, obviously very few

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Speaker 1: people were delliterate, but one of the ways, and this

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Speaker 1: extends to the church. You know, you had monks that were,

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Speaker 1: you know, translating the Bible. This is before the Reformation.

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Speaker 1: You had friaries everywhere, which is you know, going to

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Speaker 1: come into play in this particular case. But they would

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Speaker 1: illustrate things to the point where you could look at

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Speaker 1: a portrait or a picture of something and get an idea.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that like the origin of stained glass

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Speaker 1: when you go into a church and it's like you

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Speaker 1: see the Twelve Apostles on the that that that idea

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Speaker 1: originated by virtue of the people that could not read

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Speaker 1: Latin or couldn't read at all, and they could see

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Speaker 1: it played out before them, you know, the woman at

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Speaker 1: the well, and you know, so forth and so on.

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Speaker 1: But for Richard, there's an interesting piece that came up

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Speaker 1: in the discovery of this case. I would urge everybody

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Speaker 1: to look up his portrait because it is it's ghastly

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Speaker 1: and this is like the official portrait and they have

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Speaker 1: it hanging in the National Gallery in Great Britain. And Dave,

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Speaker 1: you know, he was known as the hunchback King. And

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Speaker 1: when you when you see, when you see let's see,

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Speaker 1: what's his name, the famous I Gordon, No, it's not I.

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Speaker 1: Who's the famous Sir Lawrence Olivia? He played him and

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Speaker 1: a movie, a movie portrayal. And when you see him,

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Speaker 1: he's all contracted. He leans to one side, he has

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Speaker 1: a noticeable hump in his back, but the portrait itself

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Speaker 1: demonstrates that. But you know what else the portrait painter did, Dave,

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Speaker 1: When you look at the fingers, they look like claws

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Speaker 1: that come to little points where his fingernails would be.

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Speaker 1: So they really went the full They went in all

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Speaker 1: in on this case to try to portray him as evil.

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Speaker 1: And I've often found that when people that are in

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Speaker 1: control try to portray somebody as purely evil, that that

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Speaker 1: is a statement about the individual that's doing the portrayal,

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Speaker 1: that maybe not everything they're about is just but I

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Speaker 1: am the day. Yeah, it sounds like worldwide politics actually,

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Speaker 1: And hey, what's what have we said before, Dave? You

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Speaker 1: and I? There is nothing new under the sun. This

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Speaker 1: was going on back then, it was going on before then,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's really kind of fatascinating. But you know,

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Speaker 1: what's even more fascinating is the fact that after all

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Speaker 1: of these many years, after all these many years, they

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Speaker 1: were finally able to locate the body, the mortal remains

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Speaker 1: of a monarch of England. And when I tell you this,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to believe where they found it. I

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Speaker 1: think many folks think that their death is going to

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Speaker 1: be peaceful. There's no way, you know, to predict any

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Speaker 1: of this stuff. You know, the line's share of us

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Speaker 1: are going to die of some kind of natural event. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that brings us in. I think that kind of begs

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Speaker 1: the question, is they're actually a good death? Well, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you the death that Richard the Third,

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Speaker 1: his death was not a good death. It was a

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Speaker 1: death that took place on a medieval battlefield. And this

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Speaker 1: is not This is not an environment where you have

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Speaker 1: cannons and guns and you're shooting people at long distances.

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Speaker 1: This is horses that are screaming literally because they're being attacked.

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Speaker 1: You've got men that are screaming, the clink of armor,

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Speaker 1: the strikes of all kinds of weapons which we can

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Speaker 1: get into heavy, heavy, bladed weapons, blunt weapons, and it's

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Speaker 1: just total chaos in this environment. You know what has

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Speaker 1: always fascinated me, Dave, relative to this kind of battlefield

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Speaker 1: because I'll look at like battlefield images from the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: and I got to tell you some of them are

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Speaker 1: very organized to looking. You know, you know that a

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Speaker 1: line of men went down in one particular location. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about this, people are co mingled together, They're like

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Speaker 1: they're you know, enemies are laying on top of enemies.

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Speaker 1: And it was to say that it was a a

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Speaker 1: good death I think would be certainly an understatement of

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Speaker 1: what happened there on the field of Bosworth.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got a king hating his people into battle,

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Speaker 2: and he's he's the target. You know, you want to

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Speaker 2: take out the most senior commander on the field. You're

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Speaker 2: going to skip over all of the other pawns out

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Speaker 2: there to get to that guy dude in the field.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're showing up, man, I mean, and I got

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Speaker 1: to hand it to him. I you know, when you

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Speaker 1: think about it, how and I know that this is

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, the world that we have

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Speaker 1: this very kind of uh use the word clean in

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Speaker 1: politics as a stretch, but it is. It's very clinical

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Speaker 1: when you think about well, yeah, that president can sit

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Speaker 1: in a war room somewhere and watch a big screen

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Speaker 1: and you can see your enemies eliminated at a distance.

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Speaker 1: That's not what went on with Richard. It's not what

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Speaker 1: went on with any of these people back then. They

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Speaker 1: showed up, they were out there, and they were at

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Speaker 1: the head of their troops many times, and that would rally,

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Speaker 1: rally their own troops if they could see the king

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Speaker 1: and see their colors, because that's why they carry flags.

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Speaker 1: Have a purpose. You know, you know the king's flag,

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Speaker 1: you know where he is, You're going to defend him,

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. But here in this in

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Speaker 1: this particular battle where you've got the House of Lancaster

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Speaker 1: and the House of York, which was actually Richard's house,

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Speaker 1: they're like, there's I don't want to get too deep

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Speaker 1: into this, but just so that you understand, everybody understands.

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Speaker 1: They both originate from a big house in France called

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Speaker 1: the Plaginates, and there what are called cadet branches. So

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Speaker 1: these two branches have come off and now they're clashing.

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Speaker 1: They're clashing against one another. They won't power and like

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Speaker 1: you said, Richard didn't have a solid inner circle. And

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Speaker 1: there's always what they call palace intrigue going. Everybody's trying

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Speaker 1: to stab one another in the back. And of course,

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, that's almost literally what happened out

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Speaker 1: on the battlefield. Quite fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 2: And here we are all these years later, immediately following

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Speaker 2: the battle. Okay, he dies in battle. And I thought,

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Speaker 2: and I mean this, Joe, I really thought that in

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Speaker 2: order for there to be a transition of power, you

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Speaker 2: have to know that the king is dead, because there

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Speaker 2: has to be and just like after a battle, there

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Speaker 2: has to be proof of life. Right, if he's injured

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Speaker 2: or whatever, they have to say he's still alive, he's

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Speaker 2: still in control. Well, in this case, in order to

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Speaker 2: move the country forward to pass leadership, you have to

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Speaker 2: approve he's dead. And the fact that we didn't know

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Speaker 2: where his body was right indicates something different to me.

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Speaker 2: It means something and I'm not sure did we just

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Speaker 2: kind of lose sight of it after Shakespeare writes the

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Speaker 2: play and.

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Speaker 1: They knew that, Listen, they knew, and there were there

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Speaker 1: were accounts at that time that confirmed that he had

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Speaker 1: in fact died. And just so you know, the guy

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Speaker 1: leading the other army was actually guy named Henry Tudor.

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Speaker 1: Henry Tudor ascends to the throne and becomes Henry the seventh,

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Speaker 1: and he is the father of Henry had and the

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Speaker 1: grandfather of Elizabeth. There you go, you're absolutely right, and

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Speaker 1: so he he is. He is that person that has

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Speaker 1: to find the remains of Richard the Third in that

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Speaker 1: messy muck that's out there. They have to take him

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Speaker 1: back to town so that all the citizenry are the

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Speaker 1: closest place, you know, The biggest location where they could

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Speaker 1: take Richard's body back to was the town of Leicester,

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Speaker 1: and it was a thriving town and it was I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it was over ten miles away from the battlefield.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine probably back during that time, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of ambient noise. Back during that period

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Speaker 1: of time in our history, you probably you probably could

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Speaker 1: have heard the battle off in the distance and people

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Speaker 1: moving around. The citizenry probably knew.

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Speaker 2: But didn't he gonna watch those things?

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Speaker 1: Well they would, but you didn't know what they were

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Speaker 1: gathering for. And also if you're a peasant, you don't

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Speaker 1: exactly get time off. But here's the fascinating thing, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that what they did with Richard's body. Between the time

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Speaker 1: that they took Richard off of the battlefield and took

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Speaker 1: him to where he could actually be witnessed by the

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Speaker 1: cenisory his body, they stripped his body. They took all

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Speaker 1: of his clothing off, his armor, everything. We suspect that

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Speaker 1: his helmet fell off in battle. That's revealed in some

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Speaker 1: of the wounds that we're going to talk about in

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Speaker 1: just a bit. But here's a key point. They actually

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Speaker 1: state and really hold on to this, that the death

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Speaker 1: of Richard the Third was actually the death of chivalry.

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Speaker 1: And we've heard of, you know, the the chivalry, you know,

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Speaker 1: how they courted and how they you know, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: unnecessarily wound an enemy, and all of that went out

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Speaker 1: the door. I submit to you that this might have

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Speaker 1: been kind of oh wow, kind of the threshold that

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Speaker 1: we cross over at that point in time where where

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Speaker 1: things suddenly become maybe a bit less refined.

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Speaker 2: Where they this guy's disgusting. We're showing it to everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they draped him. They allegedly draped him over

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Speaker 1: a horse. So if you can imagine, and I don't

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Speaker 1: even know that it was his horse. Remember, his horse

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Speaker 1: had gotten bogged down in the mud. He had to

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Speaker 1: get off the horse, yeah, or fell off where not,

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Speaker 1: it's not really clear the horse he ended up yet

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Speaker 1: gravity And you know, you think about everything that I

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine being encased in metal, riding a horse that's

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Speaker 1: also probably encased in metal, and you're going out there

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Speaker 1: and all of this. It's such an effort to raise

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Speaker 1: your arms and to you know, to carry these heavy

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Speaker 1: weapons and to wield them against a you know, against

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Speaker 1: an opponent. But they stripped everything that he had off

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Speaker 1: of his body and strapped him down on a saddle,

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Speaker 1: and they're leading him off. And this is the most

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Speaker 1: degrading thing that one person that is the other side

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Speaker 1: in one of these battles where you've got these houses

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Speaker 1: they're against these royal houses that are fighting. It's the

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Speaker 1: ultimate in humiliation. And we talk about this in modern

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Speaker 1: cases day, don't we We talk about what people do

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Speaker 1: with bodies. You know, after they've killed, they'll completely desecrate

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Speaker 1: a human remain. And again back to our earlier touchstone,

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Speaker 1: nothing new under the sun. And so they, you know,

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Speaker 1: after they strapped him to the saddle and led him

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Speaker 1: down the road, they had to say he is in

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Speaker 1: fact dead. Here he is new bosses in town, and

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Speaker 1: that's when Henry the Seventh actually emerges at that point

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Speaker 1: in time.

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Speaker 2: But that's where he actually becomes Henry the seventh because

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Speaker 2: without the death of Richard the third, without them prancing

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Speaker 2: him around town saying he is dead, he ain't coming

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Speaker 2: back from this. Yes, okay, Now, when you mentioned shaming him,

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Speaker 2: you know that it was time to go overboard on

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Speaker 2: this because that he had a reputation that included incest, murder,

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Speaker 2: killing a child. Everything you could possibly throw on one

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Speaker 2: guy was thrown on Richard the third, And I've always

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Speaker 2: wondered how much of that was propaganda Randa. We have

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Speaker 2: it now with our network television coverage of politics, where

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Speaker 2: they say things that are patently false and people believe

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Speaker 2: it because they want to believe it. Back then, it

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Speaker 2: was no different. They had people reporting what was going

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Speaker 2: on in the battlefield. We had it here during the

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Speaker 2: Silver during the Revolutionary War, they had reporters out on

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Speaker 2: the field that were watching these and sending stuff back

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Speaker 2: to the press patches. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: all in how it's pushed out in the media. Think

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Speaker 2: about it during when you go ahead a couple of

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Speaker 2: hundred years. During World War Two. Do you realize between

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty one and nineteen forty five, Hollywood put out

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Speaker 2: over four hundred films about war, about the World War Two,

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Speaker 2: and about victory and the US being the good guys.

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Speaker 2: It was a propaganda war because you know what, nobody

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Speaker 2: if you see saving Private Ryan landing on the beach

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Speaker 2: and you see that as your future, you ain't signing up.

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Speaker 1: No, no, you're not. It's kind of the unvarnished version

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Speaker 1: of it. It's interesting going back even further than that.

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Speaker 1: You know General Sherman who famously marched through Georgia and

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Speaker 1: destroyed Georgia, and he's kind of the guy that came

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Speaker 1: up with the idea of total war. He was going

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Speaker 1: to make the people in the South. How you know,

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Speaker 1: he he had more respect for his enemy than he

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Speaker 1: did for reporters. He would call them, he referred to

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Speaker 1: them as those damn scribblers that were essentially stealing information

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Speaker 1: and he they would go talk to the common every

401
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Speaker 1: and then print it as fact. And so you never

402
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Speaker 1: know what's coming out or and you can't control those things.

403
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Speaker 1: But if you have, which I think you do with

404
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Speaker 1: the House of Tutor. They started this that day at

405
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Speaker 1: the Battle of Bosworth. They started a propaganda campaign that

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Speaker 1: was methodical and it continued man it continued on for

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Speaker 1: one hundred years up until the time of Shakespeare and Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: She was the longest serving monarch for a long long time,

409
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Speaker 1: so she had this in the back of her mind.

410
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Speaker 1: Oh wow, you know that it was going to delegitimize

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Speaker 1: anybody else that had claimed to the throne. The plagenets

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Speaker 1: in particular or plagenates, depend upon how you pronounce it,

413
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Speaker 1: but you had They were trying. Still one hundred years later,

414
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Speaker 1: they're still trying to besmirch Richard the Third's life, his reign.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, sometimes you have to turn to

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Speaker 1: the science to determine what exactly happened. Dave, When I

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Speaker 1: say these weapons that they utilized back during this period

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Speaker 1: of time were ghastly and the injuries that they could

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Speaker 1: create with them were ghastly, that's actually an understatement. I

420
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Speaker 1: don't do it service completely because these things are well,

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Speaker 1: first off, dependent upon what station you held, and I

422
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Speaker 1: mean in society, these weapons were custom made. The king

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Speaker 1: would certainly have his own custom made weapon, and then

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Speaker 1: you had this force that was with Henry Tudor. Did

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Speaker 1: you know most of many of these troops that he

426
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Speaker 1: had were actually Welshman because that's where the Tutors arise from.

427
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Speaker 1: They come up out of Wales, and so they had

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Speaker 1: their own particular types of weapons that they entered into

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Speaker 1: this battle. And here's one in particular that was used

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Speaker 1: to great effect. They had something that was called a halbert.

431
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: And some people might have heard of a pike before.

432
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: It's a long stick that has a metal point on

433
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: the end of it. Well, a halbert actually has an

434
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: axe on on the head of it in addition to

435
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: a pointy spike. So you know this comes into play

436
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: when Richard's remains or finally after five hundred years, finally assessed.

437
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: But before we get to that point, we've got to

438
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: get to this idea of how in the heck did

439
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: they find Richard the Third's body. Here's what actually happened.

440
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: There was a place in this town where they went

441
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: to the cathedral and it was actually called Gray Friars,

442
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: And a friary is a place that has monks. Okay,

443
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: so if you think about it, doesn't if you've never

444
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: been to a cathedral in England, which I urge everybody

445
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: to go to This is prior to the Reformation. So

446
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: these are all Roman Catholic churches, and most of the

447
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: ancient churches in Great Britain are all Roman Catholic. They

448
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: just when the Reformation took place. Per Henry the Eighth,

449
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: they he pulled down some of these things over the years,

450
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: and Greyfriars Is was alleged at that time to be

451
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 1: the place where Richard's body was taken, and he was

452
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: probably buried they thought, adjacent to the choir loft. And

453
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: there was one one published document back then that said,

454
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: and I'm paraphrasing because you know, it's written in language

455
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: that we that we don't normally speak in, but essentially

456
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: what it says there was no pomping circumstance.

457
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: He was buried.

458
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Well. As time went by.

459
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: This beautiful.

460
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: House of worship gets pulled down eventually or and is abandoned.

461
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: Now Lester is a it's a big town, there's it's

462
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: an old town. There's a university there, I mean, and

463
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: university plays into the story. But they always had a

464
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: sense that it was there, and over the period of

465
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: time there evolved this mythos with Richard's body that he

466
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: had actually never made it there. He was taken into

467
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: one of two rivers and dumped in the river in

468
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: his body was allowed to float away. And I found

469
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: that really interesting in this case because those were not

470
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: necessarily contemporary. Those were like two and three hundred years later,

471
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: so they had no idea but it and it fascinating

472
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: that contemporary writers at that time had actually stated the truth.

473
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: And this is where the Riccardian Association comes in. They

474
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: had never bought this idea that Richard had just been

475
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: tossed away, and so they began to mount this effort.

476
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: I think it was in like twenty ten when this

477
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: whole thing started mount this effort to try to front

478
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: find Richard. Well, the first thing they had.

479
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: To day, wait a minute, if it went that long

480
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: until twenty ten.

481
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they they The first thing they had to

482
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: do was not find Richard's body, had to find the

483
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: church because they had they had no idea.

484
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: Where the church was. Wow.

485
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: And for people that have never seen these churches, these

486
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: things are massive. They're no they're stone, and you know,

487
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: they're really resilient. Of course, they're they're framed out in

488
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: wood and all that sort of stuff.

489
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: Except for the aliens coming and taking that stuff and

490
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: moving over to stone here, and that's what happened.

491
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's there's wood frames in it. I mean,

492
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: we saw horribly what happened in Paris a few years

493
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: ago with Notre Dame where it burned. You know, the

494
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: whole thing catches on fire. So there's wood in there.

495
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: But the stone edifice kind of stands.

496
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: Well.

497
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: The stones were pulled down, I mean they were pulled

498
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: down and no one and literally, you know, Tom moved

499
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: on and.

500
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: People forgot about it. Can you imagine, basically, Joe, how

501
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: many of our friends that are our children or their

502
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: friends know who Jack Benny is. Yeah, yeah, you're a

503
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: Bob Hope. Yeah yeah, kude, the biggest stars of the

504
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: last hundred years. Yea, Jack Benny died in the early seventies,

505
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: Bob Hope, you have several years ago. I mean, think

506
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: about it. They don't know, they have no clue these stages,

507
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: they don't know, they don't and we've lost our culture

508
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: jet we have.

509
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: And everything begins to fade over Tom and it's that listen,

510
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: It's that way with everyone. But here's the curious thing.

511
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: Kings are curious things in great Britain, because when you

512
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: go to like Westminster Cathedral and you walk in that

513
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: place and you see all of those tombs where going

514
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, and you

515
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: see the coronation throne that's there, that's behind this iron

516
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: cage that they pull out when somebody is crowned. You

517
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: see how ancient all of this stuff is. But you've

518
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: got the missing body of a king Richard I I

519
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: who knows what happened to him. They suspected, they suspected

520
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: that there were the Social Services Department for the City

521
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: of Leicester that parking lot.

522
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: This is so mind bloid. Come on, man, they had

523
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: a parking lot, dude, I really thought that was a

524
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: punch line.

525
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: No, it's Social Services man and for the city. And

526
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: they they approximated the archaeologists that went out there from

527
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: the University of Leicester by the way, Okay, and these

528
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: people had no money, so.

529
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: They don't fingure out where the church was where it

530
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: had been. Yeah, and then from there they're using things

531
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: that they don't even know are true they're doing.

532
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they I don't even know how like

533
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: if you were if you were to go out there

534
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: and try to shoot this mathematically. You know where you're

535
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: surveying the area. You don't even have a point.

536
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 2: No point off of Wow.

537
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. They'll send a chill up your spot.

538
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is divine intervention. I don't

539
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: know if it's just dumb luck. I have no idea.

540
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 1: But they had determined I can't believe say this. They

541
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: had determined that one of the walls of the church,

542
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: the friary as it was called, ran through, ran through

543
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: the parking lot of Social Services. So what little money

544
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: they have, they had to get permits from Great Britain,

545
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: by the way, loves to make it get permits. You

546
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: got a permit for everything, So you can imagine the

547
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: hassle that was. So they wind up getting the permit

548
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: to dig up Social Services parking lot. So they deal.

549
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: They dug two parallel trenches, all right, and Dave, do

550
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: you know where they put the shovel in? First, just

551
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: imagine a parking spot, a parking spot with white lines,

552
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: and there is one single parking spot in this parking

553
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: lot that has a gigantic R painted in it, and

554
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: it meant like reserved. But they said, we think that

555
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: this is where we ought to start. They dug the

556
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: trench down. They went five feet down, five feet it's

557
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: a couple of meters or one meter plus some They

558
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: found two leg bones right out of the gate, right

559
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: out of the gate. And people have often said, well,

560
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: I mean this is an ancient place, history going back

561
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: to the Romans occupied the spot. What you know, yeah,

562
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: you could probably you could probably turn soil around this place.

563
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: You're going to find something. That's not all they found

564
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: because when they went into this grave and they begin

565
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: to dig out this area, the skeleton was positioned so

566
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: that let me get this straight.

567
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: The head and it.

568
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: Still had a head, by the way, wow, was slightly

569
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: turned and it was at kind of an elevated position.

570
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: And when you're when you're excavating a site, you have

571
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: to make note of how the body is positioned because

572
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: there might be other bodies in there, and sometimes it

573
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: will give you the appearance, Dave, that you might be

574
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: dealing with more than one set of remains. And again,

575
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: this is a friary, Okay, so other people have been

576
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: buried in this location. Because if you were in the

577
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: upper crust, they're going to bury you in the floor

578
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: of the church. Just on the side. I remember when

579
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: I took my kids to Saint Louis Cathedral in New

580
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: Orleans and beautiful structures, the oldest Catholic parish in the US,

581
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: and my kids got so unnerved because all of the

582
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: previous archbishops are buried beneath the floor, right by the altar,

583
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: and when they were little, they were looking down, you know,

584
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, well the archbishops are buried here. Well,

585
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: that's the way that it had always been done, you know,

586
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 1: for people that were members of the church, that were

587
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: the hierarchy and certainly the nobility. They're they're buried in

588
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: the church. So by virtue of the fact that you

589
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: have a body that's approximating the interior of the church,

590
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: that's not going to be a peasant. Okay, well, the

591
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: legs are turned in such a way, there's a skull.

592
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: But here's the kicker. Dave, Remember how had Richard the

593
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: Third been portrayed over all these years? What did I

594
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: say earlier? You had mentioned the name igor. I think, yeah, hunchback,

595
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: he had this skeleton, had severe scoliosis. Oh my god,

596
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: I mean severe, it was, Dave. If you've if you've

597
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: never seen like true. I mean like everybody has kind

598
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: of No one has a perfect spine. You can have

599
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: a bit of scoliosis. But his spine was almost s shaped.

600
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

601
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: And it was so that it would give the appearance

602
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: that you know it was it was he was contracted

603
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: in this way. But they also said that he had

604
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: a withered limb. That was the other thing, you know,

605
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: kind of like a claw hand. Both the hands are there,

606
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: they're not deformed at all. He did have scoliosis. But

607
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, back then, based.

608
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: So you're telling me that they go out there five

609
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 2: hundred years later, it's twenty ten. They start looking around

610
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: and go, okay, we're in a parking lot and there's

611
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: a big red R right here. Maybe it stands for Richard,

612
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: maybe it doesn't, but you know what, let's go ahead

613
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: and give it a try. So you got the guys

614
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: out there and they're laughing, drinking. They're probably saying, hey, man,

615
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: I'm gonna meet you over at the puff in about

616
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: an hour. We're gonna be done with this. We'll make

617
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: jokes about it. And they find a leg and they

618
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: found Richard. So they dug down and found Richard right then,

619
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: right then. But the first guy they.

620
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 1: Found, first guy that they found, and they start searching

621
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: through this thing. The first thing they did is they

622
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: brought out GEEP what's it called ground penetrating radar, and

623
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: they ran it over the area and they didn't really

624
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: get a hit, but they saw something metallic like below

625
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: the body. Now hold on to your hat for this

626
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: to get this. This will give you how an idea

627
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: of how old this is. They ran it over, they

628
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: got a hit that was adjacent to like one of

629
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: his vertebral bodies. And as they begin to excavate the area,

630
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: they pulled this thing out, Dave, and there's a nail

631
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: and they thought maybe, well, it wasn't a nail. They

632
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: thought it was an arrowhead, a metal arrowhead. It wasn't.

633
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: It was actually a nail. And then they thought, well,

634
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: did they casket him? Well, most of these people were buried,

635
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: particularly Royalty, were buried in lead, lead caskets. There was

636
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: no evidence of that. I don't even know if he

637
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: was buried in anything. They may have just wrapped him

638
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: in a shroud and thrown him in the ground. Guess

639
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: what the point of origin that nail was. The Romans

640
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: we're talking about a thousand years before that, and they

641
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: happened when they put his body in the ground, they

642
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: actually put it on top of a Roman nail.

643
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: What are the odds?

644
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: And so they didn't find they didn't find any other

645
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: artifacts immediately adjacent to King Richard's body. But what they

646
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: did find was pretty ominous because they knew real quick

647
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: that and they had a forensic anthropologists out there from

648
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: University of Leicester. They had forensic anthropologists, they had archaeologists,

649
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: which you need. This is so complex, Dave, to do

650
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: one of these things because you first off, just to

651
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: dig down to this level when you think about the

652
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: strata of the dirt and everything, just compression over the years.

653
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: How many times? How many times do you think that

654
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: they had repaved that driveway, that parking lot over the

655
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: years the parking lot, Yeah, and just laid and can

656
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: you imagine the weight and it's like compressing down over

657
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: all these It is. It is absolute dumb luck that

658
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: they found this body. They were able everything. And here's

659
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: something that was kind of interesting. The body was missing

660
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: the but they think they think that the feet. There

661
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: was construction that was now you talk about dumb luck again.

662
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: They construction was done back during the Victorian era back then,

663
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: so you're talking about like the late eighteen hundreds. They

664
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: think that the equipment or shovels or whatever they think

665
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: they lopped the feet off and it got commingled with

666
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: dirt and it didn't get any of.

667
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: The rest of the botto. Oh my goodness.

668
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: So I mean again, they missed this by like a millimeter.

669
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: You know, they could add a millimeter, not literally, but

670
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: they missed it by hair, is what I'm saying. They

671
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: were able to extricate these remains. And look, just because

672
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: you've got a guy with a hunchback or scoliosis, just

673
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: don't it. Don't make him Richard.

674
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: No, I'm being in to think that if I'm the

675
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: guy leading this, I'm telling everybody, all right, everybody cool down.

676
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: This could be the bum we had three you know,

677
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: this could be any number of things, right, but it okay,

678
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: let's just move forward. How did the guy die, the

679
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 2: guy in the grave, it's Richard the third. How did

680
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: they actually get him out and start examining his body?

681
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: Because we only know what we've been told about the battle,

682
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: and most of it was lies.

683
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was and and he's got you know,

684
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: when they begin when they finally they get his the skeleton.

685
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: They get the skeleton back to back to the University

686
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: of Leicester where they're going to do the examination, and

687
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: they've got they've got everything they need there. I mean,

688
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: they've got everything from cat scan to X ray equipment.

689
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: They've got an anthropology archaeological lab. Uh heck, they've they've

690
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: even got a forensic anth forensic pathologist at their disposal

691
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: that is really good at recognizing sharp force injuries. So

692
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: you're gonna want because you know, we still deal with

693
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: with skeletons that have sharp force injuries. So nothing really changes,

694
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: you know, relative to do the assessment. They've got an

695
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: entire team. But here's what's really fascinating. When they begin

696
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 1: to dig into the they start doing carbon dating and

697
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: radiocarbon dating and not just that, but they start doing

698
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: isotope isolation in the bones. And here's what's really really interesting.

699
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: Whoever this person was had been living off of things

700
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: like cranes, like the birds, swans and there was one

701
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: other bird that's like a real high end kind of thing,

702
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: and they'd been eating fish that's not cruel. It's not porridge,

703
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: which if you are pottage, it's not porridge. It's that

704
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: they actually called it pottage. Pottage is something that the

705
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: peasants ate and it's like collections of like you.

706
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: Know, like, but this guy was eating good, he was something.

707
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were able to determine he had been eating fish.

708
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: He had been eating fish, I mean and swan. It

709
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: sounds really unpalatable to us, but if you had a

710
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: swan back then to eat, it was like that's something.

711
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: That you would have at a big feast. Okay, And

712
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: so he had been eating these things.

713
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: They were able to actually pick that up in their examination.

714
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: What's really kind of telling here, though, is when they

715
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: begin to look at his skull, because they noted upwards

716
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: of ten to eleven insults that his body had sustained.

717
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: Most of these injuries they felt as though were parry

718
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: mortem or post mortem. And how you and this is

719
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: remember we have no soft tissue day, no soft tissue.

720
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: We're just talking about bone. When we break a bone

721
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: or even our bone is cut like has a groove

722
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: cutting and if say some horrible accident be follows you,

723
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: bone becomes modeled after in life. If you recover from that,

724
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: the bone you probably have to go through some therapy

725
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. But let's just say it

726
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: doesn't get healed, it's going to heal on itself. So

727
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: it takes on this kind of modeled appearance where you

728
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: can see that repair has taken There was no evidence

729
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: of that. And what was really one of the most

730
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: horrible injuries that he sustained. If people will put their

731
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: hand on the back of their head and find that

732
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: kind of bulbous area, the occipital protuberance. There there was

733
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: a sword slice that had taken place at the back

734
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: of his Remember the guy that had written the history,

735
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: he said the boar had had its head taken off.

736
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: That wasn't his case. He was very accurate. The back

737
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: of that. That means that he may have seen the body.

738
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: It sliced off the back of his head, and based

739
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: upon what the forensic pathologist said, you could actually you

740
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: could actually have seen his brain.

741
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 2: Oh wow. And he's on the battlefield, he's lost his helmet,

742
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: he's down in the dirt and the muck that he

743
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: is getting capped, he's getting hit in the head.

744
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're saying that based on and this is

745
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating, Dave, you had mentioned these multiple angles.

746
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: This is very sad because he knew that the end

747
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: was there some of these people. And maybe it's just

748
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: over the top theatrics, but I don't know who knows,

749
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: who knows what's in a man's heart. They they said

750
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: that the injuries were consistent with him perhaps having been

751
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: on his knees and prayed when he was killed in

752
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: the battlefield, because he knew he was surrounded, he was defeated,

753
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: and they're going to kill him, and you know, you

754
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: bow your head and turn it down in the angle

755
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: of these injuries that he had sustained, and not to

756
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: mention that little nasty dagger that I was talking about

757
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: was probably driven through his head as well. The entire

758
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: of the facial bones are gone, well, one aspect of

759
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: the face is gone, has been carved in. He still

760
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: had teeth. They hadn't been knocked out. He had lost

761
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: some teeth in life, and there was you know, some

762
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: rot that he was but that was expected at that

763
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: point in time. But still we have all of this

764
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 1: information and we know that this is probably a battle

765
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: related death, but we still can't confirm, still can't confirm

766
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: that it is in fact Richard the third, and let

767
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: me tell you why this is so important. Elizabeth was

768
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: still not Elizabeth the First, but Elizabeth the second. She

769
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: was on the throne when all this happening. Now, this

770
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: is a very delicate political issue. Okay. First off, there's

771
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: the Church of England. Well, the Church of England was

772
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: not always the Church of England. It was Catholic church.

773
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: Richard was Catholic, and so there was actually a fight

774
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: as to where his body was going to be buried,

775
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: because you know, if they were going to give him

776
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: last rites or do whatever they do. The idea was

777
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 1: that they were trying to work all this out, and

778
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, the House of Windsor was

779
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: really trying to keep their hands off of this as

780
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: much as they possibly could. But they did offentially identify

781
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: him and get this, I think it was they extracted

782
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: DNA from a bone and it was mitochondrial DNA. And

783
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: they found two matrilineal lines that means descending from Richard's

784
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: mother that actually go through his sister Anne. They found

785
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: two living relatives. One was a sixteenth nephew and the

786
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: other was a nineteenth niece. I think I have those

787
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: numbers right.

788
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 2: Wow.

789
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: The guy, the guy that they married, this DNA up

790
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: from at the skeleton with to confirm the id get

791
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: this talk about no longer being royalty. This guy's a carpenter.

792
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: Oh wow, born in Canada, but he actually had a

793
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: car a cabinet shop in London.

794
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

795
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: And they were actually and this is not like you

796
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: know now, This is back in twelve I think when

797
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: we get to this point, we didn't have forensic genealogy

798
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: back then like we do now.

799
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

800
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: And so the thing about it is is that the Brits,

801
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to all these royals, they keep

802
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: meticulous records on all of the descendants, you know, ranging

803
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: all the way back. You know, I talked about how

804
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: I'd done stuff relative to my line and all of that.

805
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: It's very complex, but they have those records in place,

806
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: and they could figure out who they descended to. So

807
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: they go to this guy, this cabinet maker of all people,

808
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: and they do a buckle mucosal swab on him. Dave

809
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: spot on match, Oh come on, yeah, spot on match.

810
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: What are the odds? Ah? And the niece.

811
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: They couldn't find anything in the paternal line that would

812
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: that would be one hundred percent guarantee, but he was

813
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 1: identified the body was eventually identified through his mother's line,

814
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: which I'm I'm absolutely fascinated by. But I think after

815
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: it's all said, Richard the Third's body was eventually buried

816
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: in all places in the cathedral at Leicester. So perhaps

817
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: the cathedral that took the place of Greyfriars all those

818
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: years ago became Richard's final resting place. And it's a

819
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: very unassuming tomb, you know. When you go, and I

820
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: urge anybody that ever makes it to London, go to Westminster.

821
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: Walk through there. You can stand on Charles Darwin's grave,

822
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: he's buried, They're buried in the floor. Isaac Newton's there.

823
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: But go seek out these royal burials because they're very ornate, complex.

824
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: But this one man who had a life that was

825
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: cut short literally, that lived with palace intrigue, and that

826
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: lived under the shadow that he was a monster, born

827
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: with a curved spine, and always having to fight uphill

828
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: his entire existence until he is brutally booked shared on

829
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: a battlefield in Bosworth. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

830
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: is body backs