1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets Podcast. My 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: guest today is a Lindas Cigara of Hooray for the 3 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: riff Raff. Alinda is Hooray for the riff Raff. Basically 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: you and a roving cast of characters or is it 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: a band? 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: It's both. It's definitely my project, it's my songwriting, but 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: I really, you know, I'm in it for the band feeling. 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: I'm in it for the family of the band. So 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: even though it is a rotating cast of characters throughout 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: the years, I definitely get attached to the bands of 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: certain records. 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So presently, how many members in the band. 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: Altogether? There's four of us, sometimes five when I'm lucky. 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: Okay, let's start with the four. How long have the 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: same four been together? Uh? 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: They joined for this record, So we've been all playing 17 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: together since February. 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so every record might be a new band. 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. You know, for a while I was 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: rolling with the same crew of people. But then with 21 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: moving around, you know, and also just like life changes 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: that the transition of late twenties into early thirties into 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: pandemic times was very interesting with having band members. So 24 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: everyone goes through like huge life changes. So I would 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: love to hold onto this band as long as possible. 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: I'd love to continue playing with them for next record too. 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: Okay, let's break this down. Tell me about the transition 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: from twenties to thirties. 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Well, people start having kids. I'm not, but you know, 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: sometimes your drummer does, or a bassist or you know, 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: people start just having different lifestyles. So I thought that 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: was a really interesting time to be a semi hustling 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: touring musician in a van. 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: Okay, since not everybody is familiar with you, how old. 35 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: Are you today, I'm thirty seven. 36 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: Oh, you look so much younger. So you say, you know, 37 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm older than you are, And I find every decade, 38 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,279 Speaker 1: especially as you get older, it's really quite a transition. 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: Have you find a straight evolution or can you sympathize 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: and identify with them going from their twenties to their thirties. 41 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: Oh, I can definitely sympathize. I feel like, you know, 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: my transitions have been artistic for sure. I feel like 43 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: I don't really have this urge to start a family 44 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 2: per se in the typical sense of the word. But 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: I definitely feel like I'm looking for more stability. I'm 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: looking for more Also when it comes to creating art, 47 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: I'm looking for something that feels more fresh to me, 48 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: or I guess realer. I'm trying to get to this 49 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: root feeling of making something that feels very true to me. 50 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 2: So I guess that's my That's the track that I'm 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: on as I get older. 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: When you say about having a family that is something, 53 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: just go a little deeper on that. 54 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: Well, I've always wanted a family in a certain sense 55 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 2: since I was a kid. I grew up feeling very 56 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: out of place, very a bit like an alien, like 57 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: I was drop. I grew up in the Bronx. I'm 58 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: from a Puerto Rican family, and I was interested in 59 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: things that weren't necessarily what is typical like at the 60 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: time for a kid like me, and I felt very 61 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: out of place. So I went to music, to going 62 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: to live shows, and then eventually to making a band 63 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: because I wanted to feel like I was a part 64 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: of something and I had people to depend on and 65 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: people that I was getting vulnerable with. 66 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: You know. 67 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: I just didn't want to go through this life alone. 68 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: And I never felt that urge to become a mother 69 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: or to you know, to get married or something. So 70 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: songwriting and creating a band is a way that I 71 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: put those It's a place for those feelings. 72 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: I think, let's go back to growing up in the Bronx. 73 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: You know, the Box has been through a lot of 74 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: transitions in the seventies and eighties, or a lot of 75 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: movies about the South Bronx. Tell us about growing up 76 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: in the Bronx. It was. 77 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: It was a very friendly neighborhood for me to grow 78 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: up in. I feel really lucky. It was pretty old school. 79 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 2: Everybody talked to each other, a lot of older people 80 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: and families, a lot of working class people, a lot 81 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: of like union talk. It felt Now that I look back, 82 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: it feels very special. It feels like something I don't 83 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: really see that much anymore, you know, as in terms 84 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 2: of neighborhood and neighbors communicating with each other. But at 85 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: the same time, I felt like it was horribly boring 86 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: and all I wanted to do was be in the 87 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: Lower east Side because I heard that that's where the 88 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: weirdos were. I started listening to punk music and I 89 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: heard that everybody who was a punk was in the 90 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: Lower east Side. So I would take the train and 91 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: it would take me about two hours, and I loved 92 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: every second of it because I just wanted to be 93 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: like where that action was. 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: Okay? You know, on one hand, you have the Rolling 95 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: Stone song Miss You, which they now sing live. I 96 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: just saw and they left this line out. You know, 97 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: there's some Puerto Rican girls just dying to meet you, okay, 98 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: and then in New York, you know, uh, there's just 99 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: there's been racism. You know. What was it like growing 100 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: up being a Puerto Rican kid in the Bronx. 101 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: Well, I feel like for me, I was really confused 102 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: because I was constantly told that I didn't act like 103 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: what a Puerto Rican kid or girl was supposed to act. 104 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: Like the idea of what that was was Jlo, you know, 105 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: like or before her it was West Side Story. There 106 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: just like wasn't a lot of representation or a lot 107 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: of that in the media that I understood, you know, 108 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: that I could see. So I just was constantly told 109 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: that I wasn't doing you know, whatever I am correctly, 110 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: and that was from kids that weren't Puerto Rican that 111 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: you know, or kids that were So I guess my 112 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: experience of it was just constantly feeling like Okay, I 113 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: guess I'm doing everything wrong, and this is just naturally 114 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: the way I am and the things that I'm interested in. 115 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: You know, as I got older and when I made 116 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: my record in twenty seventeen, The Navigator, I started doing 117 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: more research into just Puerto Rican activism and I found 118 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: out about the Young Lords, and that's when everything starting 119 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: started to make sense to me. You know, here's like 120 00:07:54,520 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: these really inspired and serious intellectual Puerto Rican women and men, 121 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: like all in their twenties, who were all into revolution 122 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 2: and they were into revolutionary art and community activism. And 123 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: suddenly all these things that people told me, I'm like, 124 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: that's not true. I come from these from these people 125 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: very obviously, you know, like these are my ancestors in 126 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: a way, or like my elders. 127 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: You know, what do your parents do for a living? 128 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: My mother was, she actually worked for Giuliani. She was, Yeah, 129 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: she was the deputy mayor for Rudolph Giuliani for both 130 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: of his terms. And my dad, well, whoa whoa, whoa, 131 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: whoa woah. 132 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: Not everybody's familiar, including myself. Is the deputy mayor an 133 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: appointed position. 134 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: Elected position? No, well actually appointed, yeah, it's not elected. 135 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: And I think there are four. 136 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: That was my next question. 137 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, wait wait wait, wait, wait. 138 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: Wait, your mother isn't walking down the street and all 139 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: of a sudden, Juliani says, oh you I want you. 140 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: You have to climb the ladder to get to that job. 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: So what did she do to ultimately get that gig? 142 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't know. I didn't grow up 143 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: with her. I grew up with my with my aunt, 144 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: that's actually my dad's sister, and she's who raised me. 145 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: So my relationship with my mother is very strained. You know. 146 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 2: I grew up seeing her a couple of times a year, 147 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: or I would live with her for a stint in 148 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: elementary school, and then I would get sent back to 149 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: my aunt. You know. It was a lot of where 150 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: am I gonna end up? And my aunt always being 151 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: the person who was like, I will take a Linda, 152 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, so the relationship is it remains 153 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: mysterious for me. It's like one of the big mysteries 154 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: in my life. 155 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: Okay, were your parents ever married? Yes? And you have 156 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters? Yeah? 157 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 2: I have a brother. I have an older brother. 158 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: And did they share the same parents? 159 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 160 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: And when you were growing up with your aunt? Who 161 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: was he living with? 162 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,239 Speaker 2: He was with my dad. 163 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so do you ever remember living under the same 164 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: roof with both your parents and your brother. 165 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 2: In elementary school, like in kindergarten and first grade, which 166 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: is when she was first she first got her appointment. 167 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how you'd say it, right, 168 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: So I think that there was a bit of like, let's, 169 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: you know, look like a normal family. She had already 170 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: split up with my dad though, so there was this 171 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: brief period of living under the same roof, but my 172 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: aunt still being our caretaker, and that ended pretty quickly. 173 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: Okay. And what did your father do for a living. 174 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: He was a music teacher at a public school and 175 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: then he became vice principal. 176 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: Okay, now you say your Puerto Rican heritage? How many 177 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: generations was your family in New York? 178 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: My aunt and dad were both born in Puerto Rico, 179 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: but they grew up here, so I'm second. 180 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: Okay, So what's your relationship with your mother today? 181 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: Uh, there isn't one, really, I'm just kinda yeah, there 182 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: there isn't one. It's it's become more. I don't know, 183 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: it's one that I'm working through but the older I get, 184 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: the more it becomes you know, I'm not waiting for 185 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: some kind of change. It's more of accepting this is 186 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: the story of us, and I'm happy with the life 187 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: that I have. 188 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: You know, what do you speculate happened such that you 189 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: lived with your aunt as opposed to your biological mother. 190 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I mean, honestly, that was a question 191 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: that was asked a lot of me when I was 192 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: a kid, and I would always be a little bit 193 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: confused about how to answer. When I was younger, I 194 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: would give a very you know, generous answer of well, 195 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: and I do think that this is still true. You know, 196 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: my mother is of a generation where you really had 197 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: to choose between being a mother or being a professional, 198 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: and it seemed like those two things were very in 199 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: conflict with each other. So I think that being a 200 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: professional person was really where her heart was and where 201 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: her passion was, and I don't think that motherhood was 202 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: where she was called, you know which, you know, as 203 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: I get older, it definitely makes sense for me. This 204 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: idea of becoming a mother is a very big deal 205 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: to me. Like I would not want to do it 206 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: unless I was completely ready and ready to put my 207 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: obsession with songwriting a little bit to the side, you know, 208 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 2: because I don't I'm so afraid that I wouldn't be 209 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: able to do it well. I see other people juggle 210 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: it just perfectly or you know, beautifully. But for me, 211 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: I've learned from being a kid that was like, well, 212 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: I you know what's going on here? 213 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: So, yeah, okay, what is your mother doing now? 214 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, not sure. 215 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: You were living with your aunt. Yeah, brother was living 216 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: with his father, also your father. Why were the two 217 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: of you living in different locations. 218 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: I think it was just easier for my dad to handle, 219 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: you know. He Yeah, I don't know. I mean I 220 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: grew up with my aunt and uncle and it was 221 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: like a really stable household. So I felt really lucky. 222 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: And my brother grew up with my dad and it 223 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: seemed like that worked out really well. So I never 224 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: really asked a lot of questions about it because I 225 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: was really happy with staying with them. 226 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: Okay, and then when your brother was living with your 227 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: father and you're living with his sister and her husband, 228 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: how much contact are you having with the father and 229 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: the brother. 230 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: Oh, I would see them a lot. We would do 231 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: we would do these big trips every summer when we 232 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: were out of school, where we would all drive from 233 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: New York to Florida together because we had family down there. 234 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: So we would do big trips like that and like 235 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: be together all summer. Or I would see my dad 236 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, like every other week or something and 237 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: talk to him on the phone a lot. So that 238 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: was a pretty you know, in contact relationship. 239 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: Okay, your aunt and your uncle, did they have any 240 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: of their own kids? 241 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? They had two, two daughters that are my older cousins, 242 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: but kind of like my older sisters. They were all 243 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: they're like in their fifties now. 244 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so they were good fifteen odd years older than you. 245 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So you know, this decision to take on 246 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: a new kid, you know, when you're done raising your own. 247 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: I mean, as I get older, it's something I also 248 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: think about that it was such a big decision to 249 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: make and they did, and I never felt any type 250 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: of I don't know, it was like they made that 251 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: decision and they never looked back, and it was like, 252 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: I'm their kid. 253 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: And what did they do for a living? 254 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: My uncle worked in the housing project that we lived in. 255 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: He would do maintenance and stuff like that. And then 256 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: before that he was a construction worker, but he got 257 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: hurt on the job at one point. So just jobs 258 00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 2: like that. 259 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: And your aunt worked in the home. Yeah, you know, 260 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: I have to ask, is it ignorant suburbanite? One thinks 261 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: of bronx and one thinks of projects, and one thinks 262 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: of crime and danger. Is that an accurate or a 263 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: fantasy thought about it? 264 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's both. It's definitely accurate, and 265 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: also at the same time, there's a lot there is normalcy, 266 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: you know. I think people get used to the environment 267 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: that they're in and you learn to watch out for 268 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: certain things, and you also learn to acknowledge Yeah, there 269 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: are people who are addicted to drugs and they're standing 270 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: outside the building, but also they're just people, you know. 271 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: And I think, especially growing up in New York, everybody 272 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: that I was growing up around was just very matter 273 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: of fact of here are the dangers, and here is 274 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: you can maneuver them. But at the same time, I 275 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: also feel like it was a really like great neighborhood. 276 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: You know, I could walk at night by myself and 277 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: never feel nervous, and I could go there were like 278 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: a lot of really great parks and stuff like that. 279 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: So in that way, I mean, especially when I moved 280 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: to New Orleans, I felt like I was naive about, 281 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, certain dangers and stuff. I felt really independent 282 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 2: when I was growing up in New York and. 283 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: The neighborhood you grew up in. Was that a mixed 284 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: neighborhood race wise mostly Puerto Rican? What was it like? 285 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: It was really mixed. It was Irish for sure, definitely 286 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 2: Jewish population. Yeah, also like Middle Eastern. I felt like 287 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 2: there were people from every part of the world. 288 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to school. You good student, bad student, 289 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: have friends, don't have friends. 290 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: I was a good student in certain ways. I was 291 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: really obsessed with poetry early on. In English class in 292 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: like you know classes that have a lot of conversation, 293 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: discussion stuff about the arts, I was all in. And 294 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: when it came to subjects like math and science, I 295 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: was just I couldn't do it. I just felt like 296 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: I couldn't. I don't know, I couldn't handle the pressure 297 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: of it or something. And I was a good student 298 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: really until I got into high school. Pretty quickly. Into 299 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: high school is when I started making friends and hanging 300 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: out more like in the Lower East side scene, and 301 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: that was when most of my friends were outside of 302 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: my school, and I just started really questioning this kind 303 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: of track I was on. I started questioning, like, would 304 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: I really ever be able to go to college? What 305 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: kind of college could I really afford? Anyway, it was 306 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: a lot of these existential questionings of this track that 307 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: everybody was telling me I should be on. 308 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you're obviously there's a few years of 309 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: gone by, but you're wise and you have insight into 310 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: the landscape. Did you have friends that felt the same 311 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: way or did you feel kind of you were out 312 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 1: of place and you had these thoughts and there were 313 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: people really you could relate to you or you couldn't 314 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: relate to them. 315 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: I feel really lucky to have found the punk scene 316 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 2: when I did, because I definitely felt like I wasn't alone. 317 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: And also, you know, in my freshman year, I pretty 318 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: much in the first week of school, if I remember correctly, 319 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: was nine to eleven, and that experience really changed all 320 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 2: of my generation at the time, you know, and I 321 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 2: felt really lucky to well, I'd feel really lucky now 322 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: to have gone through such an intense historic moment with 323 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: other kids that were like minded that were. I don't know. 324 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: I just I didn't feel alone, you know, during it, 325 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: and I think if I had, it would have been 326 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: really bad for me. 327 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: So how did you find out about THEE And where 328 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: were you when the planes hit the towers. 329 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 2: I was in art class and my somebody came in 330 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: and westbood in my teacher's ear and she yelled holy 331 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: shit or like oh shit or something like that. It 332 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: was like this moment of you see your teacher break 333 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: the facade for a second. And what I remember after 334 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: that was just pretty much chaos, like kids immediately needing 335 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: to find out if their parents are okay, just total 336 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: madness in the school, them trying to basically get all 337 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: of us out and finding out how we can get home. 338 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: You know. I don't remember a lot of it, but 339 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 2: I remember the chaotic feeling, and none of us have 340 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: cell phones obviously at the time. And I remember going 341 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: into one office and there being a little TV and 342 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: it playing on the TV. It I didn't recognize at 343 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: that age how big of a shift it was for 344 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: me to see this bubble of normalcy get popped like that, 345 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 2: you know, at the time, because I was, you know, 346 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: fourteen going on fifteen, I was just like, Wow, something's 347 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: happen happening. Life has been so boring, and now something 348 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: is happening. But it did create just a really different 349 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: view of, you know, what is possible, and it was 350 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: really interesting to be so young and to watch people 351 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: deal with grief in different ways, and to watch certain 352 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: people want revenge, and you know, to just really get 353 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: this look outside of just me and my personal life 354 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 2: and my home. Suddenly I was looking out at the 355 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: world and at our country, and that was the first 356 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: time I really started to do that. 357 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: Okay, so you say you were a freshman in high 358 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: school and you started getting into the punk scene. How 359 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: did you get into the punk scene. 360 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: It started off with pretty like mainstream bands, you know, 361 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: like I went to go see Wheezer or I I 362 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of some other bands, like the 363 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: band Rancid. You know, there are definitely bands that you 364 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 2: hear of, and then it leads you to smaller and 365 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: smaller bands and more local bands. You go to a 366 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 2: show because you bought a CD that looked cool in 367 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: Tower Records, and then you go to the show and 368 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: somebody hands you a flyer and it's like handwritten photocopied 369 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: and you're like, what is this? I got to go 370 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: to this, you know, it was like this treasure map 371 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 2: of finding out the deeper and deeper road where you 372 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: could make more friends and go see a band that 373 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 2: nobody had ever heard of because like they're playing out 374 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: of a basement or something like that. It became like 375 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: a reason for me to live. Really, all of a sudden, 376 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: I was like, this is what I'm supposed to do. 377 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I live through this myself, and I 378 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: certainly go on to see a lot of bands in 379 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: nowhere spots. Yeah, were you so young that it was 380 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: just so exciting that you said, well, you know, these 381 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: people really aren't that good, but I'm here and this 382 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: is something. 383 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I didn't care if anybody was good. I 384 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: just loved I mean, probably if they were, you know, 385 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: quote unquote bad, I probably liked it more because I 386 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: was just really excited. I think at that age, I 387 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: didn't even want to be entertained, and I didn't even 388 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: want to really be blown away by artistry. I mostly 389 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: wanted to feel like there was no separation between me 390 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: and the band. I wanted to feel like we could 391 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: become friends, right after this, and that anyone in the 392 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: room was actually capable of doing what the band was doing. 393 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: We were all just like shifting our positions for temporarily 394 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: between like audience and performer or something. So it was 395 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: all about being connected. 396 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: Okay, let's just go a little bit lower. You're a girl, 397 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: you're going on a freshman year in high school. Yeah, 398 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: how do you literally hear punk? Do you have a 399 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: friend say, oh, you have to listen to this record, 400 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: or you hear something on the radio, or were you 401 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: a someone who bought a lot of records to begin with? 402 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: How did you literally discover punk? 403 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: I bought a lot of CDs, especially on those drives 404 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: to Florida. You know, as I got older, I was 405 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 2: feeling more rebellious and more just confused and feeling less 406 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: like a happy, go lucky kid, and I wanted to 407 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 2: buy as many CDs as I could and listen on 408 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: my headphones in the car for that really long drive 409 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 2: to Florida. And I remember buying a Dead Kennedy CD 410 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 2: simply because it looked cool, you know, And that was 411 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 2: my first experience. And then after that, I get a 412 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: Bikini Kill CD because it looks cool and they're girls, 413 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: you know, instead, it's like this, like, yeah, that's how 414 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: it started. Was I see something that catches my eye, 415 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: and then I go to the next band, and then 416 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 2: this band mentions a band in their thank yous or 417 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 2: something like that. It felt like piecing together little like 418 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 2: tips that were left behind. 419 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: Okay, at the time, did you literally have to go 420 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: Manhattan to see these acts or was there a scene 421 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: in the Bronx where you grew up. 422 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: If there was, I didn't know about it. I definitely 423 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 2: think it's different now. You know, genres are so different 424 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: now in a way that I'm really excited about. At 425 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: the time, it felt very clear that if you listened 426 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: to hip hop, you could not listen to punk. And 427 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: if you dressed a certain way, you were over here, 428 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 2: and if you dressed this way, then you're over here. 429 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 2: So it felt like in my neighborhood, everybody loved hip 430 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: hop and that's what people were listening to. So I 431 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: didn't know of a scene in the Bronx, if there 432 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: was one. So it really felt like the Lower East 433 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 2: Side was the place to be. 434 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: And were you out there alone or did you have 435 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: a compatriot or what? 436 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: I started going alone, you know, to those earlier shows, 437 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 2: and then in high school, I did make a couple 438 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: of friends that there was a place that we would 439 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 2: all gather, you know, we just kids just like to 440 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: sit outside and like smoke cigarettes and talk shit with 441 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: each other. So I started making friends that way, not 442 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: through classes or anything. And I started gathering a couple 443 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: of friends who would want to go to shows. And 444 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: then at the shows you meet other people, and so 445 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: that's how it started. 446 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: Let's be point blank. Yeah, a woman goes alone to 447 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: a show is different from a man going alone to 448 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: a sho show, Amica, or a boy can go be 449 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: one hundred percent alone. If you are a woman going 450 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: to show, a guy's going to come up and talk 451 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: to you. If not, twenty guys, what was it your experience? 452 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: Like, it really wasn't that It was not that I 453 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: uh yeah, I felt pretty good, honestly. I mean it 454 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: was all like other teenage kids, you know, so I 455 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 2: never really felt any creepiness. I was going to mostly 456 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: to shows at this place called ABC No Rio, and 457 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: that was really good because it was pretty much designed 458 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: for younger kids. It was it was a matinee show, 459 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: so it started at like three o'clock and ended at 460 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: like six, you know, and it was like five dollars, 461 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: so I felt, really, I don't know, it was a 462 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: lot more. 463 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: Not like. 464 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 2: I mean, everybody was drinking and stuff, but there was 465 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: not a lot of like creepy be feelings or feelings 466 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: of predatory stuff going on. So I feel lucky in 467 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: that way. 468 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: Did your and uncle have any idea what you were doing? 469 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: Did they ever set limits or did they just trust you? 470 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: They definitely tried to set limits, you know. At first 471 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: it was I think also my aunt really was happy 472 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: that I was finding something that I was excited about, 473 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: and she wasn't really intimidated by music, and she didn't 474 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: seem to like distrust it. You know. She was happy 475 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: that I was excited about going to shows and I 476 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 2: wasn't coming home drunk or anything. You know. It was 477 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: like I was pretty good at coming home. And then 478 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: as I got older, I would say into sixteen and 479 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: seventeen was when it started to be really noticeable that, 480 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: you know, I was like dropping out of school and 481 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: things were just kind of like spiraling into a chaos 482 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: that my aunt couldn't really handle. She would really try 483 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 2: to keep track of me and try to track me 484 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: down when I would be coming home late and stuff 485 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: like that, that there was only really so much that 486 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: they could do. 487 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: Tell me about dropping out of school. 488 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I was just doing bad and I was 489 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: So it's really hard sometimes to tap into the stubborn 490 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: brain of like a sixteen or seventeen year old at 491 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: this point in my life because there's so much that 492 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: like I don't relate to now, and that being this 493 00:30:54,120 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: very very confident belief that there was just something out 494 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: there for me that I was going to find that 495 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 2: nobody else could see. And it was just like truth 496 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: to me, Like nobody could convince me that my life 497 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,959 Speaker 2: was going to be shit because of Now, if I 498 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 2: had a kid at that age, it'd be like, what 499 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: is your plan, you know? And my big plan was like, well, 500 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to become a squatter and I'm gonna, you know, 501 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: go ride freight trains and I'm going to learn how 502 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: to live outside of society and it's going to be great. 503 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: Like that was just the life track that I was 504 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: learning about from different people I was meeting in the 505 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: Lower East Side, and it seemed so yeah, factual to me. 506 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: So that was where my head was at. 507 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: Okay, is it one day you say I can't take 508 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: this anymore, or you drop out, or you can't wait 509 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: till you turn sixteen, or you're thinking it about six months? 510 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: Are your aunt and uncle involved? How does it actually 511 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: come to be that you drop out? 512 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: It was, you know, a lot of trouble at school, 513 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: the school talking to us, and then it's like, okay, 514 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: let's try this different public school. And then I try 515 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: a different public school, and then that school it's like 516 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: guidance counselor gets involved. We think you have so much 517 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: promise what's going on? And then it's like, okay, let's 518 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: go to this third school where like kids go to 519 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: when they're on the verge of dropping out. And then 520 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: eventually when I got to that school, it was like, 521 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: let's okay, let's talk seriously about me just getting my ged, 522 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: you know. And it was a countdown for me of Okay, 523 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna turn seventeen and I'm going to find a 524 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: way to get out of here. And my mind was 525 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: very focused on I'm I'm not doing anybody any favors 526 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: by sticking around, you know. I felt very much like 527 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm stressing out my family and they don't see this 528 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: thing that I see for myself, this future that I 529 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: see for myself. So I'm just gonna have to go 530 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: do it. And then once I do it, I'll prove 531 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: to them that, you know, they can relax. They'll see 532 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: that I'm okay. It's like it's a theme that I 533 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: hear in a lot of folk songs. At once. I 534 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: left this idea of like I have to go, I 535 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: can't go home this way, like I'll I'll show you 536 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: by doing it, and you'll see that what I saw 537 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: for myself was real. You know, did you get your 538 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: ged I didn't. 539 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: Now, okay, you drop out. You have this dream of 540 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: being a squatter going on the rails, what do you 541 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: actually do? 542 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: I actually do that. I've become a squatter. I start 543 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: writing for trains with some friends. I start playing on 544 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 2: the street eventually, because at first it was just spare 545 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: changing and asking for money on the street, which can 546 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: be just so like, you know, mind numbing and so 547 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: just can drive you crazy. So I felt lucky when 548 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: I started meeting kids that were playing on the street, 549 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: specifically when I went to New Orleans. 550 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: Wait wait, let's let's before we get to New Orleans. 551 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: Tell meybe is riding freight tree in something you did 552 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: once or something you did a few times, and what 553 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: was that. 554 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: Like, I did it for about two years. It was 555 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 2: and there were very different experiences throughout doing it, because 556 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: I feel like it can get shaped so much by 557 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: who you're with or if you're alone. You know, that's 558 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: something I never did alone. I was way too scared. 559 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: So there are a lot of diferent experiences. Sometimes me 560 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 2: and another young woman I was traveling with, or me 561 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: and a band. When I finally started my first band 562 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: that was based in New Orleans, there were all other 563 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: hobo kids, uh or before I started playing music, and 564 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: it was just like me and a bunch of guys 565 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: that I knew. That was kind of like a shitty vibe, 566 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 2: you know, it was. It was so many different things. 567 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 2: Sometimes it was extremely hard, and sometimes it was like 568 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 2: the biggest high I've ever had of feeling like wow, 569 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: I've done it. I've like escaped the matrix to use like, 570 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 2: you know, a tired metaphor like here I am looking 571 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 2: at these tiny towns as we like whiz by them 572 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 2: at night, and just this feeling of like I escaped America, 573 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: like I am on the outside and I don't have 574 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: to like function in this system anymore. 575 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: Okay. You know the old myth and movie thing is 576 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: the train is moving slowly and you run onto the 577 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: train and you ride it far away and then it 578 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: stops you get off. What was it actually like. 579 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 2: Well, some people can do that, they have very good 580 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 2: upper body strength. For someone like me, it was a 581 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: lot more of you know, you wait until the train 582 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: is stopped. You like start to learn about, like you know, 583 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: how long people, how long engineers and conductors are on call, 584 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 2: and you learn that it's like an eight hour shift, 585 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: so you start to you know, just figure out when 586 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: a train has stopped. It's a lot of this is 587 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: like really before the Internet, so a lot of like 588 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: word of mouth, a lot of people telling you if 589 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 2: you want to go he if you want to go 590 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 2: west to this town, like be in this specific spot. 591 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: A lot of like writing down directions and going through 592 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: holes in the fence and stuff. It was like extremely 593 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: detailed and really like it has to be your whole life, 594 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 2: you know, because you get to a spot sometimes you're 595 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: waiting for like two days for a train to arrive, 596 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 2: and you have all these different ideas of knowing Okay, 597 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: this has like a Freddy on the back. It's like 598 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: a blinking light. It means it's going somewhere. You watch 599 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 2: the conductor and the engineer get off, You're like, okay, 600 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: we have this amount of time probably before somebody else 601 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: comes on. So a lot of that, a lot of 602 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: like nerd stuff that I really loved. But I only 603 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: tried to get on when it was moving. I'd say 604 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 2: maybe twice, and it was terrifying. At one point I 605 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: got thrown off. So I definitely knew, like when not 606 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 2: to temp fate. 607 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: Okay, if you're starting in New York, yeah, how far 608 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: would you take the train? 609 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: Well, in New York it was very difficult. We like 610 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 2: went to New Jersey and that was a terrible experience 611 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 2: to try to get out of there. We ended up 612 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 2: going to Buffalo. That was a really scary experience. So 613 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: that was hard. What I did, you know, It wasn't 614 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: like I solely rode trains, Like I took the Chinatown 615 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: bus to Philly, and from Philly is a very much 616 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: easier place to get a train or than at some 617 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 2: point I would hitchhike, which I hated doing. That was 618 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: like the that I felt like was the most dangerous 619 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: of course. So so yeah, getting out of New York 620 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: is a shit show. All it all transits. 621 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: So how far are you know Philadelphia? You know, less 622 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: than two hours away or so? How far west or 623 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: south did you actually get? 624 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: Well, I've written trains like basically on the east coast. 625 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 2: It was mostly the southeast, and I also did the 626 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 2: whole top half of the country, so across Montana, which 627 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: is so beautiful and like North Dakota and stuff, and 628 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 2: then also a lot down up and down the West 629 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 2: coast all over the place, because that is just like 630 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: it was so beautiful and it was really a lot 631 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 2: easier to do, and a lot of the southeast. So 632 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 2: I never did really the I never did the lower 633 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: half of the country, which I regret. And I did 634 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 2: a little bit of going through the Midwest until I 635 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: reached Nebraska, which I talk about in a song. And 636 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 2: then we had to like take a greyhound, which was 637 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: always like when you took a greyhound, it was like 638 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: the biggest humiliation. It was like such defeat that you 639 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: you couldn't figure it out or something, you know, So 640 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 2: it was like the walk of a certain type of 641 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 2: walk of shame, and. 642 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: You were doing what for money to you know, eat. 643 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: A lot of spare changing at first, a lot of 644 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 2: like what we would call drug studies, where people would 645 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 2: like ask you about your life on the street. They 646 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 2: would ask you if you did certain drugs or you know, 647 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 2: people trying to like get I guess, like focus group 648 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 2: type information. And also we would eat at like a 649 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: lot of Christian feedings. We would do a lot of 650 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 2: dumpster diving. But this was all before I started playing 651 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: music on the street, which was when life got a 652 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 2: lot better. 653 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So in this long history, you know, punk is 654 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: a DIY movement. At what point do you say, hey, 655 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: I can do this. 656 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think probably when I there was 657 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 2: something when I turned sixteen, you know, I won a 658 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: poetry contest, and I think that really did something for 659 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 2: my confidence as a writer. And even though I wasn't sure, 660 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 2: I had no idea that I could like play music 661 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 2: because I tried to and I felt like I failed horribly. 662 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 2: That was my perception at the time. But writing poetry 663 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 2: felt really like something I was good at, and I 664 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 2: got really obsessed with beat poetry. I was so into 665 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: Alan Ginsburg. I just like thought about him all the 666 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 2: time and read him all the time, and street poetry 667 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,959 Speaker 2: really spoke to me, So that was that was really 668 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: the beginning. Is like that type of poetry mixed with 669 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 2: going to shows. It felt like, Okay, I think there's 670 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 2: a place for me here somewhere, but I'm not sure 671 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: where it is. 672 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: So how did you find it? 673 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 2: I think through desperation, honestly, you know, the desperation at 674 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 2: first of really needing like camaraderie, really needing people to 675 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 2: be my friend and to feel confused with me and 676 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 2: to feel angry with me. I was really if I 677 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 2: could have hung out, Like hanging out was just like 678 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 2: the best drug to me. I wanted to hang out 679 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 2: all day long. So this feeling of like I need friends, 680 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 2: this isn't like a light thing for me, you know, 681 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 2: It's like if I don't have friends who who see 682 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: me as I see myself and who share a worldview, 683 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 2: then I'm I'm gonna not survive because I felt even 684 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: though my aunt and uncle gave me so much stability 685 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 2: and love, I was just really struggling mentally and emotionally. 686 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 2: So then the desperation of really leaving home, you know, 687 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: like running away and needing a place to stay and 688 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 2: needing to you know, the people I meet, doing a 689 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 2: gut check of like can I trust these people are not? 690 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think something about that desperation led 691 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 2: me to just like really strong connections and also a 692 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 2: feeling of like I don't have a choice, like this 693 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,280 Speaker 2: life is for me because this is the only one 694 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 2: I can see. 695 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: Okay, you win the poetry contest. How does it become music? 696 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 2: Well, really that really started in New Orleans. 697 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: So I oh wait, wait, wait, wait, So you drop 698 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: out of school, you're squatting, you go on trains. Do 699 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: you not play music on the street until you're in 700 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: New Orleans? Yeah? Okay, So how do you end up 701 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,280 Speaker 1: in New Orleans? 702 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 2: Through word of mouth? I ended up back in New 703 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: York City, and I'm it was for I think the 704 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 2: RNC was happening there and there were like huge protests, 705 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 2: so all these people were heading back to New York 706 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 2: or heading to New York. I go and I end 707 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 2: up staying at this squatter building and meeting a bunch 708 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 2: of people, and people are telling me that New Orleans 709 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 2: is unlike any other place in America. I came back 710 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 2: from probably eight or nine months on the road just 711 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 2: feeling completely destroyed and like I had one friend with 712 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 2: me and just feeling really lost, and hearing about this city, 713 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 2: I was like, that's where I want to go. So 714 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 2: I actually caught a ride in a van from New 715 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 2: York to New Orleans with some other people that were 716 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 2: living there that are still my friends to today. And 717 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: the minute I got there, it was like, yeah, I 718 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 2: felt like this is where I'm supposed to be. 719 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: Well. New Orleans has a unique culture, even a unique 720 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: legal system, the French legal system. But it's moist and 721 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: it's hot. It's not really good to be poor in 722 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,800 Speaker 1: New Orleans. See. 723 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 2: I was just trying to get away from the cold. 724 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 2: So I was like, bring it on, you know, but 725 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 2: to be fair, when the summer came, we did like 726 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 2: all scatter because the summer is so intense there. But 727 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 2: when I when I got there, you know, it was 728 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 2: definitely a place of the way street kids make money 729 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 2: is playing music. So I met some people who some 730 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 2: two other musicians, this guy Barnabas is kid Kiowa, and 731 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 2: I had this little washboard that someone had given me 732 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 2: and that was how I started to play. They were 733 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 2: you know, we were all hanging out. It was like 734 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 2: a campfire. Kiowa was playing Johnny Cash songs and that 735 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 2: was also a huge like folk awakening for me. Early 736 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 2: on was listening to Johnny Cash, so I knew all 737 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 2: these songs that he was playing, and I started singing 738 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 2: with him. And I was playing my washboard with just 739 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 2: like some fucking rocks or something that I found on 740 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 2: the street, and Barnabas was learning how to play the violin. 741 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 2: So we just like started to gather every day and 742 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 2: think of different songs that we could sing together, like 743 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 2: Tom Waite songs or that's where I started learning Why 744 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 2: Guthrie songs. And through that we formed my first band, 745 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,320 Speaker 2: a hobo band called the dead Man Street Orchestra. 746 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: But you're playing the washboard, yeah, And in the first band, 747 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: to what degree is it your lyrics in your voice? 748 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 2: That was hurry for the riff raff. That was the first. 749 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 2: It was after this hobo band that I was in 750 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 2: for about a year. It was when everybody started to 751 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 2: scatter from that, from that project that I felt devastated. 752 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: You know. 753 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 2: I put so much of my time and so much 754 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,320 Speaker 2: of my identity became being in a band with these people, 755 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 2: and I just really remember this feeling of I can't 756 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 2: risk that again. I have to have something that's mine. 757 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 2: So I started putting poetry that I had to song 758 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 2: with my first like instrument after the washboard, which was 759 00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 2: the banjo, and it was I was in this apartment 760 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn that all these other feminists were living in 761 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 2: and they let me stay there. You know, they are 762 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,320 Speaker 2: probably seven of us in the apartment, and I recorded 763 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 2: my first record or EP on my friend Emily's just 764 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 2: like her laptop with like a built in microphone. I 765 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 2: like locked myself in a room and recorded like eight 766 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 2: or nine songs. 767 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,880 Speaker 1: Okay, the Hobo band is that something you're just playing 768 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: around the campfire? Are you playing on the streets? Is 769 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: this a working band? 770 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 2: We would yeah, we would play on the street. So 771 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 2: we would we would ride mostly you know what they 772 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 2: called junk. It's like cargo that is not deemed like 773 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,280 Speaker 2: very important. So we had this idea of like, well, 774 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 2: it'll be less secure because you know there's high traffic 775 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 2: stuff that like the security risk is that you're gonna 776 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 2: steal it. So we're like, okay, we'll ride junk all 777 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 2: around the Southeast and end up in tiny little towns 778 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:18,359 Speaker 2: like Waycross, Georgia or like random towns in Florida or 779 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 2: North Carolina. And what we would do is we would 780 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,400 Speaker 2: get off the train in this tiny town, go walk, 781 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 2: find like the main street, and basically busk until we 782 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 2: could like meet someone and you know, hopefully meet another punk. 783 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 2: There was a lot of that, looking for anyone who 784 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 2: like looked kind of weird, and sometimes people would let 785 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 2: us play in their backyard. We would end up playing 786 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,760 Speaker 2: in a in a you know, a living room or something, 787 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 2: or at a coffee shop. Sometimes we were really a 788 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 2: spectacle because there were like six of us and a dog, 789 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 2: so it was it was easy to attract attention. It 790 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 2: was kind of like we were a magnet that the 791 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 2: weirdos of the town would like be drawn to us, 792 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,840 Speaker 2: and suddenly on the third day it would be like, 793 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 2: I've heard about you guys wandering through town, you know. 794 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,799 Speaker 1: And how did that fall apart? 795 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,840 Speaker 2: I think the same way all bands do, you know, Like, 796 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 2: especially at that age, people have these different goals. Someone's 797 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 2: like I'm trying to get on a barge to Alaska. 798 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,439 Speaker 2: Someone's like I'm trying to like go on a bike 799 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 2: trip through Europe, like everyone is just everyone had these 800 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 2: like really lofty ideas of like what their next adventure 801 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 2: would be, and it felt like this adventure had run 802 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 2: its course. But a lot of us did end up 803 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 2: in New Orleans, and everyone's still playing music to this day, 804 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 2: just in different projects. 805 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: Okay, you start playing the bando before you get to 806 00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: New York or when you get to New York. 807 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 2: I started playing the banjo in New Orleans after I 808 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 2: would say, like, uh, like four or five months into 809 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,280 Speaker 2: playing with Dead Man, just because I wanted to sing more. 810 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 2: And everybody in the group had their own folk music inclinations. 811 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 2: You know. Some people who were playing stringed instruments or 812 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,400 Speaker 2: the accordion player. They wanted to learn a lot of 813 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 2: like Eastern European music, and I was really drawn to 814 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:41,240 Speaker 2: the old time ballads or like more early country songs 815 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 2: just because what I wanted to do to do was sing. 816 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,200 Speaker 2: And that was what I learned with that band, was 817 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,359 Speaker 2: that I loved to sing. And I knew that when 818 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,280 Speaker 2: I was a kid. When I was a kid, I 819 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 2: would play songs with my dad. But once I hit puberty, 820 00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 2: I really lost touch with that, you know. So this 821 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 2: was the beginning of me knowing what kind of lyrics 822 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 2: I liked, what kind of song structures I liked, and 823 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,239 Speaker 2: also I started learning some early blues songs like by 824 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 2: Bessie Smith. 825 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: Okay, you're playing the biancho. Then you end up in 826 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: New York with these women. How do you end up 827 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:19,839 Speaker 1: in New York? 828 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 2: Just from the same type of wanderings, you know, it 829 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 2: was like a really long northern journey on the Last 830 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 2: Dead Man Street Orchestra tour where we ended up. The 831 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 2: fiddle players had family and like rural New York I think, 832 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 2: like near Fishkill or something like that. And then it's 833 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,840 Speaker 2: like I find I make my way back to the city. 834 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 2: And it was my friends Amelia and Emily, who were 835 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:58,319 Speaker 2: still my best friends today. They were in school and 836 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 2: you know, these like really tough feminists I met who 837 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 2: were a part of that like squatter movement during this 838 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 2: protest period, and they started just like being in regular 839 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 2: contact with me. We would email each other. They started 840 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,960 Speaker 2: teaching me about feminism and teaching me like different you know, 841 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 2: they'd like lend me a book that I should read, 842 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,759 Speaker 2: like here's Bill Hooks, here's Angela Davis. All these types 843 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:26,240 Speaker 2: of people. 844 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 1: Okay, you're in the apartment, you record these songs on 845 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 1: a laptop. They become your first EP. As I say, 846 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,960 Speaker 1: we're now more than ever you can do it yourself. 847 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: When you were singing those songs into the laptop, are 848 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,840 Speaker 1: you thinking this is a record or are you thinking 849 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,880 Speaker 1: I'm just making a permanent record of the music. 850 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 2: In my mind, I think at that point I was 851 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 2: thinking I'm making a tape because that was still like 852 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,399 Speaker 2: we still had. It was a bit nostalgic, not as 853 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 2: nostalgic as it is now, but there was this like 854 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 2: romanticism about getting a mixtape or something that we were 855 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,480 Speaker 2: really excited about, and that was my preferred way of 856 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,839 Speaker 2: listening to music. So I think I was thinking, Okay, 857 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 2: I'm gonna record this and then put it on CD. 858 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,320 Speaker 2: We all knew CDs were terrible, So I was excited 859 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,439 Speaker 2: to make tapes. And I definitely had the intention of 860 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 2: like distributing it, like you know, in a DIY way, 861 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 2: but I was excited to There was something about thinking 862 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 2: I can make this tape and I can give it 863 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 2: to these people and they'll be able to really see me. 864 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 2: There was this really this excitement of being seen in 865 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 2: a way that I felt like I couldn't quite communicate 866 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,560 Speaker 2: Throughout just like being myself every day. 867 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 1: Okay, you record it, you then put it on CD. 868 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: Then what do you do? 869 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:17,359 Speaker 2: Uh? I started just making copies, making tapes, asked a 870 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:22,240 Speaker 2: friend to make some album art for me. We would 871 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 2: have shows at that you know, acoustic shows at that apartment, 872 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 2: and that was something that I was doing. It started 873 00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 2: to become more of like, oh, this is something I 874 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 2: could do. I started to take on more of an 875 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,840 Speaker 2: identity of I think it's possibly could be a singer songwriter. 876 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,360 Speaker 1: Okay, you put out this EP in two thousand and seven, 877 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 1: you put out two more albums two thousand and eight, 878 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:54,320 Speaker 1: twenty ten. You're doing it. But is it there any reaction? 879 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: Is it growing? Are you trying to get on the radio? 880 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 1: What is going on with your career at that point? 881 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 2: Definitely not trying to get on the radio that I 882 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 2: wish I thought of that time. At first, it was 883 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 2: purely Okay, I'm trying to give something to my friends. 884 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:19,200 Speaker 2: And then you know, I had to make the realization 885 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,880 Speaker 2: that was time for me to really buckle down in 886 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 2: New Orleans after the Hobo band fell apart, and I 887 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 2: started to really think like, Okay, I want to live somewhere. 888 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,200 Speaker 2: I want to have a home and I want to 889 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,280 Speaker 2: focus on songwriting. So I get jobs at coffee shops 890 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 2: and start living in a house with three other four 891 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,640 Speaker 2: other artists. And that when I made the record it 892 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,880 Speaker 2: don't mean I don't love you. I had started playing 893 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 2: around New Orleans a lot. I made friends with a 894 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:57,359 Speaker 2: local musician there, Walt McClements, who is still making really 895 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 2: beautiful music today. He starts playing with me, he starts 896 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:08,240 Speaker 2: supporting me and just helping me get respect in the local, 897 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,279 Speaker 2: you know, underground scene, the scene that's separate from from 898 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 2: the jazz world there, and I was getting a lot 899 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 2: of really great a lot of great support and excitement. 900 00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 2: At one point, there was a brief period where I 901 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 2: was able to get a manager and then that fell apart. 902 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,480 Speaker 2: And that was during the second record, what I called 903 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 2: the second record, Young Blood Blues. I briefly got a 904 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 2: manager and then she very quickly, you know, dumped me. 905 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:48,880 Speaker 2: And then it was there was a local lawyer who 906 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,120 Speaker 2: was hanging out and who was my close friend named 907 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,960 Speaker 2: Andy Buiser, and he was like, I'm just going to 908 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,760 Speaker 2: become your manager. And from there it felt like, okay, 909 00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 2: this is go time. Let's really let's go on tour. 910 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 2: Let's try to do something, you know, And that was 911 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,000 Speaker 2: all leading up to making Lookout Mama, and look Out 912 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 2: Mama felt like a real change in my life, like 913 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 2: this is what I do. I'm on the road. I 914 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 2: finally met, you know, a real producer in a even 915 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,880 Speaker 2: though it's I call it a real studio, but it 916 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,960 Speaker 2: was his house, Andrea Tokic in Nashville. 917 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,959 Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back a little bit. If I heard 918 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,919 Speaker 1: you correctly, at this point, when you first moved back 919 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: to New Orleans, you have a straight gig working in 920 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 1: the coffee shop. Yeah, okay, that's paying the bills. While 921 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,600 Speaker 1: that is going on, you're working on your music. Are 922 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,439 Speaker 1: you playing live at all? 923 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? A lot of playing live, Yeah. 924 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 1: For money or just in the background for money. 925 00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 2: Probably not a lot of money. But it was definitely 926 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:07,400 Speaker 2: shows where you know, it's multiple acts, and so I was. 927 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 2: I was definitely playing a lot. And then also I 928 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 2: was still playing on the street. That was when I 929 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,640 Speaker 2: started to play on the street purely for money. Was 930 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 2: playing traditional jazz on the banjo or singing, doing both 931 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,360 Speaker 2: with some bands that were like pretty established on the 932 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,640 Speaker 2: street scene there. And I mean honestly that paid better 933 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,320 Speaker 2: than the coffee shop gig. Like that was. I felt 934 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,360 Speaker 2: very conflicted with playing in those bands because they paid 935 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,000 Speaker 2: so well, but I found them to be so boring, 936 00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,600 Speaker 2: and all I wanted to do was write my own music. 937 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 2: But I felt like, man, I could play a wedding, 938 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,320 Speaker 2: I could play two shifts on the street on a 939 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,800 Speaker 2: beautiful day and come out with like four hundred dollars, 940 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,680 Speaker 2: because it was like we were just making an insane 941 00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 2: amount of money. 942 00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: At what point do you start playing the guitar? 943 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 2: That was closer to look Out Mama. I think the 944 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 2: first time I'm recorded playing the guitar was on Young 945 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,080 Speaker 2: Blood Blues, and that was the record right before I 946 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,360 Speaker 2: look Out Mama. In like twenty ten, I started playing 947 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,280 Speaker 2: the guitar because I would go see family in New 948 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,920 Speaker 2: York and I would end up at the well. It 949 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,160 Speaker 2: wasn't at the Jalapie. It's something called Ruts and Rucis. 950 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,400 Speaker 2: That is a night of folk music with like many 951 01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,480 Speaker 2: different revolving performers, and it was it used to be 952 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,919 Speaker 2: at Cafe is it? Oh? No, the village, Ma, Yeah, 953 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,400 Speaker 2: it used to be at the Village, Ma. A friend 954 01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,960 Speaker 2: of mine started the night, so I would go play 955 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,240 Speaker 2: that for some money and also to see other great 956 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,840 Speaker 2: folk musicians and be inspired. And it was hanging out 957 01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,800 Speaker 2: with those people that I started to really fall in 958 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:55,520 Speaker 2: love with the guitar. 959 01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:03,480 Speaker 1: Okay, in this you're making a couple of records, you're driven. 960 01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:09,680 Speaker 1: Are there any signs that things are opening up you 961 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: certain reactions, certain breaks, or you just doing it on 962 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 1: a real underground level. 963 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,320 Speaker 2: It was a lot of local reaction, which felt like 964 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 2: the whole world to me. You know, this is really 965 01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 2: before we were still like really clued into the internet. 966 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 2: I definitely wasn't. I wasn't really that focused on anything 967 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,480 Speaker 2: outside of New Orleans. Anything outside of New Orleans felt 968 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,600 Speaker 2: like it was it didn't involve me. So when I 969 01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,200 Speaker 2: would get local reaction, or when I would be on 970 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,560 Speaker 2: a show and one hundred people show up at the show, 971 01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,400 Speaker 2: it felt like, man, I made it, you know. So 972 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,440 Speaker 2: that really did a lot for me. But I, like 973 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:58,040 Speaker 2: I said, a major change was when I got in 974 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,640 Speaker 2: contact with this look, with this manager and she was 975 01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,040 Speaker 2: talking to you know, she like flew down to meet me. 976 01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like, oh, it's all happening, Like like what 977 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,200 Speaker 2: people say is going to happen. And then pretty quickly 978 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,880 Speaker 2: she's like, I don't see this going anywhere for you, 979 01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,560 Speaker 2: you know, which I don't blame her, because at the time, 980 01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,880 Speaker 2: I don't think I seemed very like like I made 981 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 2: sense in any sort of there was like this. It 982 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,200 Speaker 2: was kind of still inde sleeves going on or something 983 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:34,680 Speaker 2: going on in music at that time. So that was 984 01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,240 Speaker 2: I really had to reckon with that. Though I had to. 985 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 2: I think it woke me up and it also made me. 986 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,880 Speaker 2: It made me less naive of Oh, things are just 987 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,880 Speaker 2: going to flow. It's going to be some like music 988 01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:55,320 Speaker 2: documentary where someone discovers you and then you're a folk 989 01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:00,240 Speaker 2: star or something like that that you see. It made 990 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:05,680 Speaker 2: me think, Okay, I don't want to play jazz gigs 991 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,400 Speaker 2: for my living anymore. That's not what I like to do. 992 01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,080 Speaker 2: I need to find a way to get more serious 993 01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 2: about my songwriting. And that's when Andy Buiser became my manager, 994 01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,760 Speaker 2: and when I made look Out Mama. That was when 995 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 2: I started to feel like, Okay, let's try to make something. 996 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 2: Let's try to get attention from outside of this city. 997 01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Okay, at what point do you call it hooray for 998 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:35,400 Speaker 1: the riff raf. 999 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 2: From the beginning from the very first one. 1000 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I have to ask the obvious question, why hooray 1001 01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:44,760 Speaker 1: for the riff. 1002 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 2: Rath Okay, my memory is shoddy, but I remember that 1003 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,200 Speaker 2: fiddle player I mentioned Barnabas. We were all, you know 1004 01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 2: that the Jovo band ended up at this their family house. 1005 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,960 Speaker 2: They let like the six seven hobo kids like all sleepover, 1006 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,320 Speaker 2: and we're all hanging out and we were all saying goodbye. 1007 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 2: The next day we got like, I think she dropped 1008 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,360 Speaker 2: me and Barnabas off at a train yard nearby. We 1009 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:18,080 Speaker 2: were going somewhere and she said something about riff raff 1010 01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,920 Speaker 2: and she said it in this really like loving way, 1011 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:26,360 Speaker 2: just and it. I remember in that moment thinking like 1012 01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,280 Speaker 2: I like that. And I'd already been toying around with like, well, 1013 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,920 Speaker 2: what would I call a band if it was just 1014 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,080 Speaker 2: my band? What would you know? I really didn't like 1015 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:39,800 Speaker 2: the idea of just using my name. I was a 1016 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:41,800 Speaker 2: big fan of cat Power, and I was like, I 1017 01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,920 Speaker 2: loved that she had a cool, weird name, you know. 1018 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,840 Speaker 2: I just thought like it was more mysterious, So I 1019 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,680 Speaker 2: got it. I remember it was inspired by my friend's mom. 1020 01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,360 Speaker 2: And then and then I used. 1021 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:58,280 Speaker 1: To Okay, there are a million bands who say, hey, 1022 01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,520 Speaker 1: we just settled on a name, and if we knew 1023 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,000 Speaker 1: it was going to be the ultimate name of a 1024 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:06,240 Speaker 1: big wish, it wasn't this. Are you happy that it's 1025 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:07,400 Speaker 1: hooray for the riff Raff? 1026 01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:15,360 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I'm overjoyed, but I've learned to. I've 1027 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 2: learned to love it. I've learned to. I think it's 1028 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,600 Speaker 2: good for me that I have to you know, I'm here. 1029 01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:26,840 Speaker 2: It's kind of like when you get a tattoo when 1030 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,720 Speaker 2: you're seventeen. It's like, I'm still very much in touch 1031 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,400 Speaker 2: with that young kid. And also I do think that 1032 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,560 Speaker 2: the threads and the themes are still so much of 1033 01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:43,840 Speaker 2: what inspires me and what is like the colors that 1034 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,320 Speaker 2: I paint with, you know, I think that a lot 1035 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,600 Speaker 2: has changed, and also like the main themes are still there. 1036 01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:55,040 Speaker 1: Okay, you make the Lookout Mom a record? What changes 1037 01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,320 Speaker 1: after you make that? 1038 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,480 Speaker 2: That was when we started to get more attention. That 1039 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 2: was when you know, we're still the tours. We were 1040 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 2: still rough, but at that age, I'm probably like twenty 1041 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,080 Speaker 2: four twenty five, I was just so excited to like 1042 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 2: live on the road for two months in the van 1043 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,800 Speaker 2: and we start meeting other like like minded musicians that 1044 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,280 Speaker 2: are it felt like there was something really happening in 1045 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:30,040 Speaker 2: the Southeast that was really exciting. And that was when, 1046 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,720 Speaker 2: you know, as I was making the next record, small 1047 01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:38,440 Speaker 2: Town Heroes, or writing those songs, I started to get 1048 01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,960 Speaker 2: contacted by Ato Records, by this woman Kirby Lee, who 1049 01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:47,480 Speaker 2: actually saw me play at a Roots and Ruckus set 1050 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,080 Speaker 2: in New York one time, like when I'm playing by 1051 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:55,400 Speaker 2: myself and she, you know, approached me and we became 1052 01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:00,800 Speaker 2: fast friends. And that was my first time getting attention 1053 01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,360 Speaker 2: from a label. And also then the next record, small 1054 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,200 Speaker 2: Town Heroes, was my first record with a label in 1055 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:08,240 Speaker 2: the US. 1056 01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:13,320 Speaker 1: Okay, you're going on the road. It's a band? Is 1057 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,560 Speaker 1: it the same people? How did the economics work? 1058 01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:23,120 Speaker 2: We split everything equally, which I think was very generous. 1059 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,360 Speaker 2: I just didn't you know we would just split everything 1060 01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,440 Speaker 2: split like the CD sales. I mean back then CD 1061 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:36,120 Speaker 2: sales were you could be like a working, just like 1062 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,840 Speaker 2: hustling musician and you sold so many CDs. It's so 1063 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,800 Speaker 2: crazy to think that, Like, we don't sell physical copies anymore. 1064 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,440 Speaker 2: You know, I had made I made look Out Mama 1065 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:53,000 Speaker 2: into physical pressings through a Kickstarter. That was how we 1066 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:56,320 Speaker 2: paid for the vinyl and how we paid for like 1067 01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:01,480 Speaker 2: the album art and everything, but we would split everything equally. 1068 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,480 Speaker 2: We would sleep on people's floors. Sometimes at the end 1069 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,280 Speaker 2: of a set, we'd be like, and we're looking for 1070 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,280 Speaker 2: blades to stay We like end up staying in random 1071 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:19,200 Speaker 2: people's houses. So it was it was very like still Hoboesque, 1072 01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,280 Speaker 2: but it was the same people for that period of time. 1073 01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:26,320 Speaker 2: I'd say, like look Out Mama and Small Town were 1074 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:31,679 Speaker 2: a similar group, a similar band. It was two people 1075 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,000 Speaker 2: from a band called the Deslons that are still going 1076 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:42,439 Speaker 2: and Yos Pearlstein who played on h Young Blood Blues 1077 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,519 Speaker 2: and look at Mama and small Town Heroes. 1078 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:51,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, Kickstarter, how much money do you ask for? 1079 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,280 Speaker 1: And in Kickstarter you have to reach that level on 1080 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:56,840 Speaker 1: like cah go go how much money? And how do 1081 01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:57,760 Speaker 1: you get the word out? 1082 01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:01,280 Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I think think that was when Facebook was 1083 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,960 Speaker 2: finally here, So we were putting it out to like 1084 01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 2: a lot of our friends and family, and I think 1085 01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,680 Speaker 2: it's like I want to say, it was not a 1086 01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 2: lot like seventy five hundred or something. I should find 1087 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:23,240 Speaker 2: it because you know, we were recording with Andrea at 1088 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,519 Speaker 2: his house still, so it wasn't like a crazy amount 1089 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,440 Speaker 2: and we just wanted to make physical you know, CDs, 1090 01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,679 Speaker 2: So it wasn't a lot, but we made our goal 1091 01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,440 Speaker 2: and and yeah, I thought it was a big success. 1092 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:45,240 Speaker 1: Now you made a covers album via Kickstarter after that, right, well, that. 1093 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,599 Speaker 2: Was one of their rewards. I wanted to give people 1094 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,679 Speaker 2: a reward, so I said, okay, you'll get uh, you'll 1095 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,839 Speaker 2: get some of my covers record that I'll also record 1096 01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,280 Speaker 2: with Andrea as like an incentive. And you know, I 1097 01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,439 Speaker 2: think we had we had like a mailing li at 1098 01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,360 Speaker 2: the time. We definitely had some like cult fan base 1099 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,839 Speaker 2: in the Southeast, particularly because that was where we would 1100 01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,599 Speaker 2: you know, tour so often in like Alabama and North 1101 01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:17,320 Speaker 2: Carolina and Georgia. So there were people that were really supportive. 1102 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:30,840 Speaker 1: Okay, this comes out before the person from Ato makes contact. 1103 01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,360 Speaker 1: Other than getting the money on kickscharter and having enough 1104 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,480 Speaker 1: money to make the record, did that grow the act? 1105 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:43,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it really it felt like that record 1106 01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,439 Speaker 2: was reaching outside of our bubble. It felt like people 1107 01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,120 Speaker 2: were hearing about it. It felt like we could go 1108 01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,840 Speaker 2: on tour on the West Coast, and people would come. 1109 01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,280 Speaker 2: It felt like there was a word of mouth and 1110 01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:57,719 Speaker 2: it was also at a good time for that sound. 1111 01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:00,719 Speaker 2: I felt like that sound was you know, during that time, 1112 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:04,880 Speaker 2: we met Brittany and members of Alabama Sheikhs, and there 1113 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,639 Speaker 2: was a band Shovels and Rope. It felt like there 1114 01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,320 Speaker 2: was really something going on with that type of sound. 1115 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,240 Speaker 2: So it felt like it was growing for sure. 1116 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: Okay, by time you get the deal with Ato, is 1117 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,799 Speaker 1: the lawyer still your manager? Do you have an agent? 1118 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,120 Speaker 1: What's the status of the band? 1119 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:30,760 Speaker 2: By the time Ato came to us, Andy was still 1120 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:35,880 Speaker 2: our manager and it was signing with Ato. I'd say 1121 01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:39,240 Speaker 2: after small Town when we started to realize that it 1122 01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,759 Speaker 2: was getting really big for him, you know, he started 1123 01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:46,360 Speaker 2: starting his own family that and then Kirby Lee, who 1124 01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:48,320 Speaker 2: signed me, actually became my manager. 1125 01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,920 Speaker 1: And who is your manager today, Chris chen So how 1126 01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,200 Speaker 1: did you get from Kirby to Chris. 1127 01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,759 Speaker 2: Gosh? I mean, well, me and Kirk we were together 1128 01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:05,559 Speaker 2: for a couple of records and that was amazing, and 1129 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,400 Speaker 2: we were really we were best friends and we still 1130 01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:14,519 Speaker 2: are very very close. And I felt like after you know, 1131 01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,680 Speaker 2: me and Kirby were together from small Town till the Navigator, 1132 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:23,680 Speaker 2: and after the Navigator, things in my life and in 1133 01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,400 Speaker 2: the life of the band felt really confusing. After I 1134 01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:31,360 Speaker 2: put out that record, I had no idea what to do. 1135 01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,520 Speaker 2: And then you know, after that, we're hit with the pandemic. 1136 01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:39,439 Speaker 2: So I was in a really tough spot and me 1137 01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:43,920 Speaker 2: and Kirby weren't working together anymore. And actually Chris Chris 1138 01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,400 Speaker 2: chen I met him because when none Such approached me, 1139 01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,759 Speaker 2: uh after the Navigator, he was working at None Such. 1140 01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,760 Speaker 2: So we became friends and stayed in touch, and it 1141 01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,120 Speaker 2: was through that meeting that he became my manager. 1142 01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,479 Speaker 1: Okay, let's back up. Yeah, you're an ATO. Do you 1143 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:03,200 Speaker 1: have an agent? 1144 01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:09,000 Speaker 2: At first we didn't. Then we eventually signed with Josh 1145 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:13,600 Speaker 2: Brinkman for a little bit. This is the part of 1146 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,280 Speaker 2: the interview I'm going to be bad at because I 1147 01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:18,599 Speaker 2: feel like I don't remember a lot of people's names. 1148 01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,320 Speaker 2: But we're with Josh Brinkman for a little and he 1149 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:22,920 Speaker 2: became our booking agent. Yeah. 1150 01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:25,360 Speaker 1: Well, how many booking agents since then? 1151 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,160 Speaker 2: Uh? Just too including the one that we're with now. 1152 01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:33,639 Speaker 2: So now we're with Martial Debts. 1153 01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:40,480 Speaker 1: And what is the difference between booking agents. 1154 01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's been a big difference in me. 1155 01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,320 Speaker 2: You know, I learned a lot with small town Heroes 1156 01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:53,479 Speaker 2: because I was coming from this scene in New Orleans 1157 01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:59,559 Speaker 2: that it wasn't the genre didn't really matter as much, 1158 01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,600 Speaker 2: and I didn't really understand anything about like your presentation 1159 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,960 Speaker 2: and your brand and all these types of just like 1160 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:12,360 Speaker 2: aesthetic choices that you make about a band and how 1161 01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:16,360 Speaker 2: that affects where you play, the type of festivals you play, like, 1162 01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,280 Speaker 2: you know, the genre that you end up in, and 1163 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:23,880 Speaker 2: small town heroes to me, I didn't really know that 1164 01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,040 Speaker 2: it would mean I would be on this Americana track, 1165 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:30,920 Speaker 2: which is funny to say now, but I wanted to 1166 01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:34,679 Speaker 2: get off of it pretty fast once I was. Once 1167 01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:38,519 Speaker 2: I put out that record, I felt like I was 1168 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,559 Speaker 2: presenting myself the wrong way, and it was really hard 1169 01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,840 Speaker 2: for the people that work with me to understand what 1170 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:48,400 Speaker 2: I meant. You know, It's like I don't want to 1171 01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:50,840 Speaker 2: play these like Americana festivals. It's like, well, you play 1172 01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,559 Speaker 2: Americana music, so what do you want. So that's why 1173 01:14:54,640 --> 01:15:00,479 Speaker 2: with The Navigator, I wanted to really shift the focus 1174 01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,760 Speaker 2: and I wanted to take the reins and just change 1175 01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:05,520 Speaker 2: the track of where I was going. 1176 01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,719 Speaker 1: You know, that's not that easy. Was it easy for you. 1177 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:15,120 Speaker 2: To seem so hard? So hard? And so many people 1178 01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:19,840 Speaker 2: were like, you're ruining your career, and I don't even 1179 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:23,760 Speaker 2: doubt them. I was just like, well, I'm miserable though 1180 01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:27,960 Speaker 2: I'm in situations. I was in environments where I felt 1181 01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:35,440 Speaker 2: extremely un like respected and I felt very sometimes unsafe, 1182 01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 2: just like I felt like an outsider at my own gigs, 1183 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,680 Speaker 2: you know, not ones that were particularly for me, but 1184 01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,200 Speaker 2: I felt like I was being placed in the wrong settings. 1185 01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:49,080 Speaker 2: And I just had this idea of yeah, I play 1186 01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,040 Speaker 2: the singer songwriter music and sometimes there's a fiddle, but 1187 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:55,080 Speaker 2: it's still a little bit indie rock. It's still a 1188 01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,639 Speaker 2: little bit off kilter. I don't want to go down 1189 01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:03,800 Speaker 2: this like I want to somehow show the off kilter 1190 01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,439 Speaker 2: of it and show that it's still a little bit 1191 01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,720 Speaker 2: weird in the best use of the word, you know. 1192 01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:14,200 Speaker 2: So it was really difficult, and a lot of people 1193 01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,680 Speaker 2: were just like, you're not gonna be able to do this. 1194 01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,439 Speaker 2: And luckily, I feel like now genre has been blown up, 1195 01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:25,320 Speaker 2: so I think it's working a lot better than it 1196 01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:26,600 Speaker 2: did at first. 1197 01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,439 Speaker 1: So at first it was a struggle career wise. 1198 01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,799 Speaker 2: Definitely The Navigator in general was a really hard time 1199 01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:40,040 Speaker 2: for me. I'm so proud of that record, and I'm 1200 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,960 Speaker 2: so proud of of just like the campaign that we 1201 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,439 Speaker 2: made and the people that I worked with. You know, 1202 01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,440 Speaker 2: I was working with shore Fire. I still do on publicity, 1203 01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,920 Speaker 2: and I learned so much in how that was a 1204 01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,160 Speaker 2: part of my art. You know, that was a major 1205 01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:00,080 Speaker 2: I think, just a tool that I was able to 1206 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,679 Speaker 2: express these other parts of myself, Like I was able 1207 01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,360 Speaker 2: to talk to writers I really respect, and to thinkers 1208 01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 2: and to show the side of me that I think 1209 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:15,200 Speaker 2: is a huge part of the music. But as far 1210 01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:21,840 Speaker 2: as as educating an audience, taking you know, taking them 1211 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,720 Speaker 2: a new direction from this like idea of me that 1212 01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,719 Speaker 2: they first met with small Town, it was really hard. 1213 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,479 Speaker 2: And it was also a very you know, it was 1214 01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:38,960 Speaker 2: the beginning of a very tense political climate of course, 1215 01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,200 Speaker 2: so it was just rough. Being on the road was rough. 1216 01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:47,200 Speaker 2: Playing shows was rough. Sometimes we'd get heckled. I mean, 1217 01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:50,720 Speaker 2: I've been pretty lucky with stuff like that, but a 1218 01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,879 Speaker 2: lot of like why are you speaking out about things 1219 01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:56,960 Speaker 2: like go back to playing the fucking banjo or whatever. 1220 01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:01,160 Speaker 2: You know, it was really it was a really hard time. 1221 01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:08,160 Speaker 1: Okay, in this evolution, did the audience adjust or did 1222 01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:10,439 Speaker 1: people fall off and you get new people? 1223 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,760 Speaker 2: People fell off and I got new people, and then 1224 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:16,960 Speaker 2: you know there is a section that adjusts. I think 1225 01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:21,320 Speaker 2: there's a there's a core group that always saw me 1226 01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:27,160 Speaker 2: as just an artist, a songwriter. I think some people 1227 01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:31,360 Speaker 2: who've who've like, they have artists that they love, and 1228 01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,880 Speaker 2: they also are willing to go down a journey with 1229 01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:42,080 Speaker 2: them and expect changes and expect different influences. So people 1230 01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:46,200 Speaker 2: who listen in that way and our fans in that 1231 01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:51,160 Speaker 2: way were ready for the ride and if anything, excited 1232 01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,160 Speaker 2: about it. And then some people drop off and then 1233 01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:57,639 Speaker 2: you make new fans or I made new fans. 1234 01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,759 Speaker 1: Okay, you obviously decide I did to go down this path, 1235 01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:06,560 Speaker 1: and you were staying the path. But in the transition, 1236 01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,200 Speaker 1: which had was not one hundred percent smooth, to what 1237 01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,240 Speaker 1: degree were you personally angstying? 1238 01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:18,559 Speaker 2: Oh it's really hard. Yeah, I was experiencing a lot 1239 01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:25,679 Speaker 2: of stage fright. I was experiencing just like I still 1240 01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:27,920 Speaker 2: was in a place where I wasn't that worried about 1241 01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,200 Speaker 2: like my overall future. I still think I had some 1242 01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:37,479 Speaker 2: of that like gift of like of youth where I 1243 01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,759 Speaker 2: was like, no, I'm on my hero's journey and something 1244 01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:47,760 Speaker 2: is going to happen. But I hated the feeling of 1245 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:53,080 Speaker 2: being misunderstood and I hated the feeling of being scared. 1246 01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:55,000 Speaker 2: And I felt like when I had to go play 1247 01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:58,759 Speaker 2: sometimes I had to come out with such a warrior energy, 1248 01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:03,479 Speaker 2: and it is exhausting to be a warrior all the time. 1249 01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:07,240 Speaker 2: I felt like I wasn't giving the subtlety that I wanted, 1250 01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,120 Speaker 2: and it was also just really hard on my nervous system, 1251 01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,120 Speaker 2: hard on my body, and also you know, we're like 1252 01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:21,480 Speaker 2: still in the van, so it's just a hard touring life. Yeah. 1253 01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:24,679 Speaker 1: So if you put out that album The Navigator, at 1254 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:29,720 Speaker 1: what point do you say, I've turned it around. I'm comfortable, 1255 01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:32,920 Speaker 1: this is who I am. It's working. If you've even 1256 01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,360 Speaker 1: reached that point. 1257 01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:39,400 Speaker 2: I think it took a lot of time. It took, 1258 01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:44,040 Speaker 2: you know. Now is when I feel like that, because 1259 01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:49,160 Speaker 2: people mention that record to me, and it's so it 1260 01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:51,519 Speaker 2: blows my mind every time. I'm like, Wow, I'm so 1261 01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:55,479 Speaker 2: glad that you're here. You know. Now, people talk about 1262 01:20:55,680 --> 01:21:00,639 Speaker 2: Balante and at first, like I remember telling people about 1263 01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:04,840 Speaker 2: this song and it was just like I felt crazy. 1264 01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,320 Speaker 2: I felt, you know, they didn't know what this word meant. 1265 01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:10,200 Speaker 2: I hardly knew what the word meant. It means to 1266 01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:13,559 Speaker 2: keep going. It's like Puerto Rican slang about continuing on. 1267 01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,280 Speaker 2: So and I will say, even though during that time 1268 01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,639 Speaker 2: I didn't know, I felt very uncertain about the audience reception. 1269 01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:27,840 Speaker 2: I did feel like the people I worked with were 1270 01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:34,479 Speaker 2: real believers. The producer Paul Paul Butler was such a 1271 01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:39,360 Speaker 2: believer and we I felt like I went through like 1272 01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:44,080 Speaker 2: a spiritual transformation while making that record. That that was 1273 01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:49,000 Speaker 2: how I survived because I felt a very deep spiritual 1274 01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:50,200 Speaker 2: connection to the music. 1275 01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:56,439 Speaker 1: Okay, you produce the first ATO record, as you say, 1276 01:21:56,479 --> 01:22:00,519 Speaker 1: Paul Butler produced the second. What's that transition about. 1277 01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:08,160 Speaker 2: I think I just understood that I don't want to 1278 01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,880 Speaker 2: be good at everything, or I don't have to be 1279 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,440 Speaker 2: the best at everything. I felt like I wanted some guidance. 1280 01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,920 Speaker 2: I wanted to say, hey, I don't know what to 1281 01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:22,760 Speaker 2: do with this, and also to say I'm at a 1282 01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:26,599 Speaker 2: stalemate here, help me get out, you know, like I'm 1283 01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:29,160 Speaker 2: trying to change my sound or I'm trying to expand it, 1284 01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,800 Speaker 2: I should say. And I was listening to a lot 1285 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:40,280 Speaker 2: of Georgia Ben and listening to Rodriguez. So I had 1286 01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:43,240 Speaker 2: all these sounds in my head and also this idea 1287 01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:45,679 Speaker 2: of like this music should be put to a play 1288 01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:49,960 Speaker 2: that I was also working on the side that was writing. 1289 01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:56,960 Speaker 2: So I wanted a creative partner. And when I met Paul, 1290 01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,000 Speaker 2: I just knew that this was it and he would 1291 01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:04,320 Speaker 2: challenged me, but he was also really excited to make 1292 01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:05,960 Speaker 2: something ambitious. 1293 01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:11,040 Speaker 1: Okay, you know Ato, the majors mean less, the independence 1294 01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,320 Speaker 1: mean more. I remember when Ato was much smaller. Aho 1295 01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:17,559 Speaker 1: is kind of a major thing now. But you're making 1296 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,600 Speaker 1: these two records. How much money are they giving you 1297 01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:22,120 Speaker 1: to make these records. 1298 01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,320 Speaker 2: For a small town. We really didn't get a lot, uh, 1299 01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:31,040 Speaker 2: because you know, Andrea was extremely affordable at the time. 1300 01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:34,400 Speaker 2: I'm sure its rates have gone up, but also we 1301 01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:38,080 Speaker 2: didn't really need We had a band, so that was 1302 01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:43,120 Speaker 2: the touring band for Navigator. We had to get more, 1303 01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,519 Speaker 2: and I don't know, like it wasn't a lot. I 1304 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,920 Speaker 2: would say it was like when me or I don't know. 1305 01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,439 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm the worst person to ask, but 1306 01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:56,639 Speaker 2: I remember it not being an insane amount. 1307 01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:01,679 Speaker 1: Okay, let's be point blank for the ato records. They 1308 01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:07,080 Speaker 1: cost X Did you ever make a royalty? No? Okay, 1309 01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:11,639 Speaker 1: at this point in time, other than selling music at 1310 01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:16,360 Speaker 1: the gig, are you making any money from music being 1311 01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:19,640 Speaker 1: streamed or used in any way online? 1312 01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:26,040 Speaker 2: From my early record well? Actually no, that's like I 1313 01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 2: didn't even have them. Well, I was selling them at 1314 01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:30,640 Speaker 2: the gigs, you know, I had these CDs that I 1315 01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:31,559 Speaker 2: could sell at the gig. 1316 01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:33,000 Speaker 1: But I'm talking about online. 1317 01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:35,560 Speaker 2: Oh online? No, no, no, no. 1318 01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:39,240 Speaker 1: To this day, you're not making any money from online? 1319 01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:43,040 Speaker 2: Not really no, I mean definitely not recouped. 1320 01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:48,320 Speaker 1: So okay, wait before you switch to none, such, what 1321 01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:54,000 Speaker 1: does the touring look like? Are you headlining? Are you opening? What? 1322 01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:56,519 Speaker 1: And how are you traveling? Et cetera. 1323 01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:03,679 Speaker 2: A lot of headlining the gigs were not as frequent. 1324 01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:05,280 Speaker 2: It would be like an occasional gig. 1325 01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, Well, do you're not opening by you know, 1326 01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:10,320 Speaker 1: I have a friend who's got a philosophy. My acts 1327 01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:13,479 Speaker 1: never open, so if somebody comes, they're coming to see them. 1328 01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:17,599 Speaker 1: It might be a smaller gig, but it's their audience. Yeah, 1329 01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:22,320 Speaker 1: Were you headlining by choice because of that or it 1330 01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:24,760 Speaker 1: just happened that way? 1331 01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:28,080 Speaker 2: We would do which we still do you know, like 1332 01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:34,800 Speaker 2: a year of headlining and then hoping to get it, like, 1333 01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,160 Speaker 2: I'll definitely go on a tour like I just went, 1334 01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, for Life on Earth. I went on tour 1335 01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:43,160 Speaker 2: with Bright Eyes for like on and off for like 1336 01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,200 Speaker 2: four or five months. And if it's the right act 1337 01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,639 Speaker 2: then and it pays the bills, then for sure, I'll 1338 01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,040 Speaker 2: do it. But it seemed like nobody was really knocking 1339 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:56,400 Speaker 2: on our door to open. And yeah, I really agree 1340 01:25:56,439 --> 01:26:00,200 Speaker 2: that we had a small but dedicated fan base. It 1341 01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:02,920 Speaker 2: just was better for us to headline. 1342 01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:08,000 Speaker 1: Okay, bright Eyes got a good reputation, not exactly your sound. 1343 01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,000 Speaker 1: How was that experience opening for Bright Eyes? 1344 01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:17,080 Speaker 2: It was it really it made more sense than you'd think. 1345 01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:22,320 Speaker 2: You know, we're all like in that band, and for me, 1346 01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:27,160 Speaker 2: we're all obsessed with the song. You know, it's very 1347 01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:31,720 Speaker 2: song storyteller focused. And also these are guys that are 1348 01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:36,160 Speaker 2: interested in all genres just like me. It was a 1349 01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:40,040 Speaker 2: really amazing experience. Life on Earth was my last record, 1350 01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:43,320 Speaker 2: and that was also a tough time for me and 1351 01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:48,280 Speaker 2: a tough time on the road. Coming back through pandemic 1352 01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:53,960 Speaker 2: times and going on tour with them saved me. I also, 1353 01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,920 Speaker 2: I didn't grow up as big of a Bright Eyes fan. 1354 01:26:57,960 --> 01:26:59,519 Speaker 2: Of course I knew who they were, and of course 1355 01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:03,080 Speaker 2: I listened to some songs on mixtapes and stuff, But 1356 01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:08,840 Speaker 2: this was my first time really experiencing Connor's lyrical genius 1357 01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:14,360 Speaker 2: every night, and that was a lifesaver. Hearing those lyrics 1358 01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:17,920 Speaker 2: every night just expanded my mind. I felt like, okay, 1359 01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 2: I'm learning each night, you. 1360 01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:24,840 Speaker 1: Know, Okay, tell me about switching to none such. 1361 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:31,040 Speaker 2: It was again, well, this was right before the pandemic. 1362 01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,160 Speaker 2: My you know, my time with Ato ran its course, 1363 01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,040 Speaker 2: and I had these. 1364 01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:43,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, theoretically, if you'd wanted to make another record with Ato, 1365 01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,680 Speaker 1: could you have? And if not, was it with a 1366 01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:48,880 Speaker 1: choice to separate their's yours? 1367 01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:49,840 Speaker 2: It was their? 1368 01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:50,960 Speaker 1: Okay? 1369 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the Navigator. It wasn't a huge success commercially, 1370 01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:02,000 Speaker 2: and I think again, like for people who first worked 1371 01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:05,240 Speaker 2: with me with small town heroes, maybe they thought that 1372 01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:06,960 Speaker 2: they were getting a certain type of artists and then 1373 01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,160 Speaker 2: I do this complete change or it. You know, it 1374 01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:14,360 Speaker 2: was a pretty drastic change. And then coming into life 1375 01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:19,080 Speaker 2: on Earth, the demos I had were even weirder. And 1376 01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:22,840 Speaker 2: now I'm like playing with electronics stuff and I'm just 1377 01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:27,080 Speaker 2: starting to go in this just experimenting in this other way. 1378 01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:31,320 Speaker 2: So I think it just wasn't what they were interested in, 1379 01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:33,679 Speaker 2: and none such was really. 1380 01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:36,280 Speaker 1: Well, was a little bit slower, a little bit slower. Huh, 1381 01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:42,200 Speaker 1: Ato says we're going to part ways. Yeah, how do 1382 01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:43,440 Speaker 1: you handle that emotionally? 1383 01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,559 Speaker 2: I mean, even though I'm sensitive, I can be really 1384 01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:53,439 Speaker 2: tough and stubborn where I'm just like okay, like I'm 1385 01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:55,760 Speaker 2: gonna find a way where there is no way. 1386 01:28:57,240 --> 01:29:00,600 Speaker 1: Okay. Then, how does nuns you said, nuns such found you? 1387 01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:02,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1388 01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:05,400 Speaker 1: I mean, did you have a manager of somebody putting 1389 01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,000 Speaker 1: out demos feelers? How did none such ultimately make contact 1390 01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:09,240 Speaker 1: with you? 1391 01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think it was probably I had 1392 01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:18,360 Speaker 2: a brief manager after Kirby Lee, and I feel like 1393 01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:23,400 Speaker 2: that was the connection. I remember meeting, you know, David 1394 01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:27,160 Speaker 2: By there came to New Orleans, where I lived at 1395 01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:29,120 Speaker 2: the time. I just recently moved. 1396 01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,479 Speaker 1: And wait, wait we live where now? 1397 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:35,760 Speaker 2: And now I live in Chicago. 1398 01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:37,560 Speaker 1: And why Chicago? 1399 01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:41,240 Speaker 2: I love it here. I mean also, my whole band 1400 01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:44,960 Speaker 2: is based out of here, and I've I've slowly started 1401 01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:47,360 Speaker 2: to become obsessed with the music scene in Chicago that 1402 01:29:47,479 --> 01:29:53,320 Speaker 2: this like independent music scene specifically my Bassis Namdi, who 1403 01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:56,519 Speaker 2: puts out really he's been putting out really amazing weird 1404 01:29:56,600 --> 01:30:01,439 Speaker 2: music forever. Also send Marie Mooto. There's just like a 1405 01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:08,400 Speaker 2: really cool scene of kind of genre lists, really inspired 1406 01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:13,320 Speaker 2: artists here. So I started making friends and I'm excited 1407 01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:14,560 Speaker 2: about the change. 1408 01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:21,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so by There comes to New Orleans and. 1409 01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:21,920 Speaker 2: And we have a dinner and it was really great 1410 01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:29,040 Speaker 2: and I felt really respected, and it was just everything 1411 01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:31,800 Speaker 2: I was looking for, you know. It was It's like 1412 01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:37,280 Speaker 2: a prestigious label with uh, just a roster of artists 1413 01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:41,760 Speaker 2: that I'm I'm just like, I want to have a 1414 01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:44,840 Speaker 2: career like that. I want to have a career that's long. 1415 01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,680 Speaker 2: I want to have a career that is inspired and 1416 01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:51,800 Speaker 2: takes chances where the art is is first. And so 1417 01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,960 Speaker 2: I felt like that was the home for me. 1418 01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:58,160 Speaker 1: Well, No Such is great on a million levels, and 1419 01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:02,040 Speaker 1: by There was great, but point blank, you've made two 1420 01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:06,439 Speaker 1: records for None Such, which really is a major label. 1421 01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:08,720 Speaker 1: You know, it lives in its own world, but it's 1422 01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:12,920 Speaker 1: part of the Warner Group, et cetera. What is different 1423 01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:17,960 Speaker 1: about being un Done Such as opposed to your prior records. 1424 01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:23,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I think I've I think the experiences are 1425 01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:27,760 Speaker 2: pretty similar, honestly, like I've never had the experience of 1426 01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:30,439 Speaker 2: people telling me what to do with the art. I've 1427 01:31:30,479 --> 01:31:34,880 Speaker 2: gotten lucky for both rounds with Ato and None Such 1428 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:43,120 Speaker 2: that they're very the artist knows what you want, so 1429 01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,280 Speaker 2: so yeah, I would say, I mean also, of course, 1430 01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:50,479 Speaker 2: like this time for life on Earth and for for 1431 01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:53,519 Speaker 2: the past is still alive. The money was better, and 1432 01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:57,040 Speaker 2: especially I needed that because I'm working with a producer, 1433 01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:01,680 Speaker 2: Brad Cook, and just like everything's leveled up and it's 1434 01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:03,599 Speaker 2: kind of like, okay, we're in the big leagues. Now 1435 01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:14,680 Speaker 2: we got to do some big leak stuff, you know, Okay, you. 1436 01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:19,400 Speaker 1: Know, irrelevant of view, irrelevant of none such. The landscape 1437 01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:22,559 Speaker 1: continues to evolve. The old paradigm has dead. You know, 1438 01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:27,040 Speaker 1: let's get print to TV, getting on the radio now, 1439 01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:29,719 Speaker 1: you know, it's more. Yeah, you have your fan base, 1440 01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,599 Speaker 1: but growing your fan base is on the road. And 1441 01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:37,920 Speaker 1: then there's like some luck you know, Spotify, TikTok. You know, 1442 01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:41,640 Speaker 1: is there anything that None such has done in particular 1443 01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:44,760 Speaker 1: that a previous outfit did not do that you can 1444 01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:45,719 Speaker 1: see to your benefit. 1445 01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:52,800 Speaker 2: I think they were just very supportive to what to 1446 01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,280 Speaker 2: the process I was going through. I think Life on Earth. 1447 01:32:57,080 --> 01:33:00,639 Speaker 2: You know, Life on Earth also wasn't a blockbus by 1448 01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:05,360 Speaker 2: any means, but they were very patient and very supportive 1449 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:09,120 Speaker 2: of this weird record I made that I really believe in, 1450 01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:14,920 Speaker 2: and then I think staying with me and staying supportive 1451 01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:18,800 Speaker 2: during that time and giving me what I needed to 1452 01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,240 Speaker 2: make the past is still alive. This is by far 1453 01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:24,720 Speaker 2: like the most successful record I've made, and I think 1454 01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:27,120 Speaker 2: it'll continue to be. I think it'll be a life 1455 01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:32,879 Speaker 2: changing record for me, and I think when other labels 1456 01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:37,240 Speaker 2: would have started to really freak out, they were just 1457 01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:41,120 Speaker 2: extremely supportive and really listened to me and Chris and 1458 01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:41,920 Speaker 2: followed our lead. 1459 01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:46,400 Speaker 1: Okay, how can you feel or how you measuring that 1460 01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:48,640 Speaker 1: the new latest album is so successful? 1461 01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:55,639 Speaker 2: I can feel it in the audiences. I can feel 1462 01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:59,320 Speaker 2: it also just in like a cultural sense. It feels 1463 01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:03,840 Speaker 2: like it's I mean, the type of press that I've 1464 01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,720 Speaker 2: gotten and the responses that I've gotten, it feels like 1465 01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:11,240 Speaker 2: it really connected, like the vision I had in mind 1466 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:17,760 Speaker 2: was being I brought it to people. And also I'm 1467 01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:21,000 Speaker 2: starting to feel like other avenues are opening up for me, 1468 01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:24,920 Speaker 2: like this record has somehow opened up avenues for me 1469 01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:29,919 Speaker 2: in writing and in meeting other thinkers that I really respect, 1470 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:32,960 Speaker 2: and just getting into rooms that I felt like I 1471 01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:36,840 Speaker 2: was locked out of before because I'm just like a 1472 01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:41,000 Speaker 2: musician solely. Something about this record has really opened up 1473 01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:44,559 Speaker 2: a multi faceted future for me. I think. 1474 01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:48,000 Speaker 1: Now, if I remember correctly, they did a feature on 1475 01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:51,559 Speaker 1: you in the New York Times, Right, that feels good? 1476 01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,120 Speaker 1: You know, did you hear from the people you grew 1477 01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:58,240 Speaker 1: up with? Did it have any effect? Or you say 1478 01:34:58,280 --> 01:34:59,000 Speaker 1: that was nice? 1479 01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:04,200 Speaker 2: Now it's Wednesday, Definitely, that was nice. Now it's Wednesday, definitely, 1480 01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:06,960 Speaker 2: that was nice. Time to go on tour. We better 1481 01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:11,559 Speaker 2: fucking sell tickets on this tour, you know. And in 1482 01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:15,400 Speaker 2: that way, I think, I think things are still growing 1483 01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:21,120 Speaker 2: for sure in the touring world. That's where my focus is. 1484 01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:23,160 Speaker 2: Is like I want to get out of the fucking 1485 01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:27,679 Speaker 2: van and I'm just stubborn as hell, and I'm gonna 1486 01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:34,120 Speaker 2: work until I do. You know, there's a huge chasm 1487 01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:38,720 Speaker 2: between like van band to bus band. It feels like 1488 01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:42,400 Speaker 2: the fucking Grand Canyon, like you just you don't know 1489 01:35:42,439 --> 01:35:44,240 Speaker 2: how to get over there. And I think a lot 1490 01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:46,519 Speaker 2: of it is luck and the right timing and the 1491 01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:51,360 Speaker 2: right placement and the right like you know. So that's 1492 01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:58,000 Speaker 2: my like struggle right now. But I'm gonna just keep working. 1493 01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:03,160 Speaker 1: Okay, the economics. You know, you were literally, you know, 1494 01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:07,240 Speaker 1: a squatter. What's your economic status today? 1495 01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:11,599 Speaker 2: I mean I feel rich. It's like I can pay rent, 1496 01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:15,120 Speaker 2: and I mean my life is still compared to other people. 1497 01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:16,800 Speaker 2: It's like I don't have a car, you know, I 1498 01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:20,600 Speaker 2: don't own any land or anything. I don't I but 1499 01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:24,840 Speaker 2: I can go out to dinner, I can pay my rent. 1500 01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,759 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm also constantly working. I'm at a place 1501 01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,800 Speaker 2: where I'd really love to not tour as much as 1502 01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,680 Speaker 2: I do. I've been on tour on and off since February, 1503 01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:39,360 Speaker 2: you know. I've had like two weeks off recently, and 1504 01:36:39,400 --> 01:36:43,400 Speaker 2: it was so good for my body. So I'd love 1505 01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:46,080 Speaker 2: to get to a place where I'm not consistently touring. 1506 01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:49,240 Speaker 2: Because I tour and then I find a way to 1507 01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:53,240 Speaker 2: tour the second year of a record, and then when 1508 01:36:53,240 --> 01:36:54,920 Speaker 2: that starts to dry up, I'm like, well, I can 1509 01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:56,080 Speaker 2: do solo shows. 1510 01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:56,519 Speaker 1: You know. 1511 01:36:56,560 --> 01:37:00,639 Speaker 2: There's always some kind of get back on the road 1512 01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:06,320 Speaker 2: to make some money hustle, and I want to start writing. 1513 01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:08,760 Speaker 2: I want to find a way to spend more time 1514 01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:09,200 Speaker 2: at home. 1515 01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,360 Speaker 1: So tell me about how you cope with the pandemic. 1516 01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,960 Speaker 2: By writing through it. For sure, I felt really lucky 1517 01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,680 Speaker 2: to be in New Orleans. It's just it was so 1518 01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:24,920 Speaker 2: beautiful and we didn't have to deal with like the winner, 1519 01:37:25,120 --> 01:37:30,040 Speaker 2: you know. I was always able to go outside. Luckily 1520 01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:33,400 Speaker 2: we had a democratic governor who believed in science, or 1521 01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:36,120 Speaker 2: else I think we would have been fucked, you know. 1522 01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:41,800 Speaker 2: So I felt like the state actually handled it really well. 1523 01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:47,920 Speaker 2: We were able to get testing pretty early on. It 1524 01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:52,320 Speaker 2: was also the time that I met Brad that I 1525 01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:56,320 Speaker 2: started to a friend, I'm a terrible driver. I'm like 1526 01:37:56,400 --> 01:38:00,720 Speaker 2: always a New Yorker who didn't grow up driving. So 1527 01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:04,639 Speaker 2: I didn't want to fly, of course, So I convinced 1528 01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:08,840 Speaker 2: two separate friends on two separate trips, to drive with 1529 01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:13,160 Speaker 2: me to Durham, and I'd like, get an Airbnb and 1530 01:38:13,200 --> 01:38:15,320 Speaker 2: we would get, you know, get tested, and then I'd 1531 01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:19,760 Speaker 2: go get into the studio with Brad. So that was 1532 01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:23,040 Speaker 2: how I coped, was making life on Earth and meeting 1533 01:38:23,080 --> 01:38:25,320 Speaker 2: Brad and getting inspired in that way. 1534 01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:28,040 Speaker 1: And how'd you cope financially? 1535 01:38:30,160 --> 01:38:37,400 Speaker 2: I was pretty okay, I mean, really not doing anything helped. 1536 01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:41,680 Speaker 2: Not doing anything, not going anywhere definitely had to like 1537 01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:46,400 Speaker 2: buckle down. But also I'd just gotten this. I felt 1538 01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:49,960 Speaker 2: really lucky to have gotten a record deal, you know, 1539 01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:52,559 Speaker 2: before the pandemic hit. It was like a week before 1540 01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,880 Speaker 2: so where I feel like maybe they would have been 1541 01:38:56,920 --> 01:39:00,759 Speaker 2: a little bit more timid about signing me. A couple 1542 01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:04,840 Speaker 2: of weeks later, when the world shuts down, I just 1543 01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:08,200 Speaker 2: had this record deal go through. I felt like, let's 1544 01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. I felt like there was actually a 1545 01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:13,639 Speaker 2: lot of opportunity for me, and I was so happy 1546 01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:14,960 Speaker 2: to not be on tour. 1547 01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:21,320 Speaker 1: Okay, I've seen you live Beyond before the pandemic. I'm aware. 1548 01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,599 Speaker 1: But in all the press for these none such work, 1549 01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:32,480 Speaker 1: they've referenced non binary and they them pronouns. 1550 01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:32,880 Speaker 2: Ye. 1551 01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:36,120 Speaker 1: Is it just because this is something I'm aware of 1552 01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:40,599 Speaker 1: now or is it something that was always the case 1553 01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:43,880 Speaker 1: in I'm late or is it a change what's going 1554 01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:44,400 Speaker 1: on there? 1555 01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:49,400 Speaker 2: It was a change during the pandemic. I think there 1556 01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:56,560 Speaker 2: was something about not being you know, this word perceived 1557 01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:59,479 Speaker 2: that I feel like people are using a lot. It 1558 01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:02,599 Speaker 2: was a but a major time of I was getting 1559 01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:05,160 Speaker 2: a lot of nostalgia and I was also doing a 1560 01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:10,240 Speaker 2: lot of recounting my life and the people that meant 1561 01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:13,080 Speaker 2: a lot to me, and a lot of those people 1562 01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:17,080 Speaker 2: are trans people. That's a huge part of this band 1563 01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:23,639 Speaker 2: still existing is just like trans community throughout my whole life. 1564 01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:28,080 Speaker 2: Somehow coming in seeing me the way I saw myself 1565 01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:34,720 Speaker 2: supporting me. And there was this moment in the Pandemic 1566 01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:37,519 Speaker 2: where I just kind of got this little inkling of like, 1567 01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:41,880 Speaker 2: why am I not allowing myself to just like, for 1568 01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:44,799 Speaker 2: lack of a better term, to like fuck around with gender, 1569 01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:48,360 Speaker 2: Like why don't I allow myself that freedom? I allow 1570 01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:53,200 Speaker 2: myself a lot of creative freedom, but I have I 1571 01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:56,519 Speaker 2: focus so much on performance and the art and the band. 1572 01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:03,080 Speaker 2: And it felt like giving myself this gift to allow 1573 01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:07,000 Speaker 2: my own personal life and the way that I see 1574 01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:09,840 Speaker 2: myself and the way I communicate with people and ask 1575 01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:14,400 Speaker 2: them to address me and stuff. It felt like a 1576 01:41:14,439 --> 01:41:19,360 Speaker 2: gift of allowing myself, Yeah, a new freedom and an exploration. 1577 01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:26,840 Speaker 2: It's also extremely vulnerable because you're just you're like, well, 1578 01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:28,479 Speaker 2: a lot of people aren't going to get it. Some 1579 01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:30,320 Speaker 2: people are going to make fun of it. Some people 1580 01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:32,400 Speaker 2: it's going to make them really mad, and you're not 1581 01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:39,040 Speaker 2: sure why. But it felt like suddenly I was getting 1582 01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:44,920 Speaker 2: closer to this, to the truth of like the kid 1583 01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:51,479 Speaker 2: in me who never felt like gender quite made sense 1584 01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:55,160 Speaker 2: to me in my experience of it, who felt like 1585 01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:58,240 Speaker 2: I was always this like kind of third other thing. 1586 01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,400 Speaker 2: And it felt like I feel very fine with that, 1587 01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:05,360 Speaker 2: you know. Just it felt like I was giving myself 1588 01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:09,240 Speaker 2: a gift to be a little bit more complicated to 1589 01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:10,439 Speaker 2: people and to not care. 1590 01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:17,240 Speaker 1: You know, theoretically you could have changed this but not 1591 01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:21,680 Speaker 1: announced it. You chose to announce it because. 1592 01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:27,200 Speaker 2: Because it's just the truth of where I'm at, you know, 1593 01:42:28,640 --> 01:42:32,400 Speaker 2: announcing it. Also, it mostly was just telling press like 1594 01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:36,360 Speaker 2: when they write when they wrote about me, And also 1595 01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:39,479 Speaker 2: I felt like, well, people are also gonna write whatever 1596 01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:43,120 Speaker 2: they want. But it felt important to me to say 1597 01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:45,360 Speaker 2: this is where I'm at. This would have been thinking about, 1598 01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:49,840 Speaker 2: you know, and this is how I see myself. So 1599 01:42:51,120 --> 01:42:54,200 Speaker 2: you can refer to me as this or you cannot. 1600 01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:56,599 Speaker 2: But I'm still going to be doing what I'm doing. 1601 01:42:57,240 --> 01:43:04,120 Speaker 1: Okay, So you have these thoughts. You gave yourself this freedom, Yeah, 1602 01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:07,840 Speaker 1: has your life changed or it's a terrible term to 1603 01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:10,800 Speaker 1: say you've acted on this freedom. But once you've come 1604 01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:14,559 Speaker 1: to this realization and announced it has your life changed. 1605 01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:20,519 Speaker 2: I feel a sense of relief and I feel, you know, 1606 01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:24,519 Speaker 2: who knows what of it is also from just aging 1607 01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:30,880 Speaker 2: in the great way of a new confidence and just 1608 01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:36,960 Speaker 2: more of a rooted feeling in knowing who I am. 1609 01:43:37,600 --> 01:43:44,240 Speaker 2: You know, I definitely feel like what's funny about freeing 1610 01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:47,960 Speaker 2: yourself from identity is like then you just get new categories. 1611 01:43:48,040 --> 01:43:52,200 Speaker 2: It's like then you get more boxed in in a way, 1612 01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:54,599 Speaker 2: but as far. But I also feel like that has 1613 01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:58,800 Speaker 2: so much to do with outside perception and the Internet 1614 01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:01,960 Speaker 2: and just like all this bullshit when it comes to me, 1615 01:44:02,040 --> 01:44:06,040 Speaker 2: It's like, I feel happier at this time in my 1616 01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:08,840 Speaker 2: life than I've ever felt. And I think a lot 1617 01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,759 Speaker 2: of that is by is a testament to just being 1618 01:44:13,800 --> 01:44:18,760 Speaker 2: honest about who I am and to be unapologetic about it. 1619 01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:24,240 Speaker 1: You mentioned that you had a lot of trans friends 1620 01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:29,080 Speaker 1: the trans community. I certainly have trans people, I know. 1621 01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,599 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is the way you mentioned 1622 01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:38,439 Speaker 1: it sound like you had more trans friends than someone 1623 01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:41,120 Speaker 1: who might live in the city, and for some reason 1624 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:45,120 Speaker 1: you fell into a world where you had more trans friends. 1625 01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:48,240 Speaker 1: Is it just the luck of the draw, or is 1626 01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:51,559 Speaker 1: there something about your drawn to this community and how 1627 01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:52,439 Speaker 1: does that affect you. 1628 01:44:53,439 --> 01:44:56,320 Speaker 2: I was definitely drawn to the community for sure. I 1629 01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:59,519 Speaker 2: think also there was something going on in the punk 1630 01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:07,040 Speaker 2: scene when I was, you know, in Turning, like eighteen nineteen, 1631 01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:11,320 Speaker 2: that there was this like queer punk like revolution happening. 1632 01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:15,400 Speaker 2: And I was also meeting a lot of trans train writers. 1633 01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:19,720 Speaker 2: You know, my old fiddle player Yo C. Pearlstein, who 1634 01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:23,960 Speaker 2: was on three records. We rode freight trains together before 1635 01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:27,040 Speaker 2: he joined the band, and he was a part of 1636 01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:30,800 Speaker 2: like a really cool crew of trans train writers called 1637 01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:35,599 Speaker 2: bent Rails. So it was definitely the world that I 1638 01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:39,920 Speaker 2: was drawn to. And I felt like when I would 1639 01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:44,080 Speaker 2: be in these very queer spaces, very trans spaces, I 1640 01:45:44,200 --> 01:45:46,080 Speaker 2: felt a sense of freedom. 1641 01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:46,680 Speaker 1: You know. 1642 01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:49,720 Speaker 2: I used to play this one DIY festival out in 1643 01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:56,400 Speaker 2: rural Tennessee called Ida that was all mostly trans artists, 1644 01:45:56,920 --> 01:45:59,599 Speaker 2: and I couldn't I didn't have the language for why 1645 01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:04,599 Speaker 2: I felt well, extremely why I felt more comfortable there, 1646 01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:08,439 Speaker 2: but I just knew that I did. So it was 1647 01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:10,639 Speaker 2: just something that I kept with me this whole time. 1648 01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:13,519 Speaker 1: Are you in a relationship presently? 1649 01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1650 01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:20,799 Speaker 1: And I'm going to ask, yeah, man, woman, trans person. 1651 01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:28,320 Speaker 2: It's as a man. Yeah, okay, And how long has 1652 01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,000 Speaker 2: this gone on for a year now? 1653 01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:33,799 Speaker 1: And you live together with him in this apartment? 1654 01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:35,160 Speaker 2: I do, yeah. 1655 01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:36,320 Speaker 1: And is he a musician? 1656 01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:40,719 Speaker 2: He is, yeah, but he doesn't he does, he's mostly 1657 01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:42,400 Speaker 2: does front of house. 1658 01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:48,000 Speaker 1: Now and in the past with this itinerant lifestyle. Yeah, 1659 01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:53,240 Speaker 1: have you been mostly solo or had relationships mostly solo? 1660 01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:56,520 Speaker 2: A lot of obsessive songwriting. 1661 01:46:57,439 --> 01:47:00,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, and prior to now, what is the law longest 1662 01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:02,160 Speaker 1: relationship you've had? 1663 01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:05,160 Speaker 2: It was for actually for seven years? 1664 01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:06,960 Speaker 1: Seven years a long time. 1665 01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:08,880 Speaker 2: It is a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1666 01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:10,679 Speaker 1: How old were you when this happened? 1667 01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:15,360 Speaker 2: This was after Navigator, which is how I see my 1668 01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:20,160 Speaker 2: life in the chapters of albums. But yeah, it was 1669 01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:26,160 Speaker 2: for seven years after Navigator until you know, until pretty recently. 1670 01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:30,719 Speaker 1: Okay, I mean until pretty recently. Yeah, was this person? 1671 01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:34,080 Speaker 1: What was their life about? 1672 01:47:34,680 --> 01:47:40,519 Speaker 2: They were not a musician. I don't normally I just 1673 01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:44,559 Speaker 2: don't really talk about my especially not for people who 1674 01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:46,800 Speaker 2: are not in the music world. So I try to 1675 01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:48,160 Speaker 2: give them their privacy. 1676 01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:50,439 Speaker 1: Okay, Then let me ask you a different question. Why 1677 01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:51,000 Speaker 1: did it end? 1678 01:47:53,360 --> 01:48:00,759 Speaker 2: Gosh, just like complete fork in the road, life, life stuff, 1679 01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:09,479 Speaker 2: definitely two different lifestyles me, especially going into these last 1680 01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,800 Speaker 2: two records, being like I need to pedal to the metal, 1681 01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:16,680 Speaker 2: do everything I can for my career, you know, and 1682 01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:20,880 Speaker 2: their life is very not like this. And also I 1683 01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:26,080 Speaker 2: think I think there is something to just like to 1684 01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:31,120 Speaker 2: not wanting a traditional relationship, not wanting a traditional not 1685 01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:35,479 Speaker 2: wanting marriage eventually you know that type of life. 1686 01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:42,320 Speaker 1: Okay, but relationships of that length. Breakups are really hard. Yeah, 1687 01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:45,800 Speaker 1: sometimes you get back together other people. I'm more of 1688 01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:48,320 Speaker 1: this school. It's like when it's done, I can't have 1689 01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:50,120 Speaker 1: contact with you, it's just too painful. 1690 01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:51,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 1691 01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:54,000 Speaker 1: What is going on with you in this person? 1692 01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:58,439 Speaker 2: That's definitely more of it. I'm you know, But I 1693 01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:03,640 Speaker 2: also have I feel lucky to be a part of 1694 01:49:03,680 --> 01:49:06,759 Speaker 2: a world that's like, even though it's big, it's small, 1695 01:49:07,160 --> 01:49:13,880 Speaker 2: and I definitely feel a lot of love. But I 1696 01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:19,360 Speaker 2: feel so like, especially mixing that with the loss of 1697 01:49:19,400 --> 01:49:22,400 Speaker 2: my dad, it's like, right now I have to be 1698 01:49:22,560 --> 01:49:27,080 Speaker 2: like I'm forward motion and I'm changing my life and 1699 01:49:27,120 --> 01:49:30,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to a new chapter because if I look back, 1700 01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:34,280 Speaker 2: it's just so difficult. It's just like the nostalgia will 1701 01:49:34,360 --> 01:49:39,360 Speaker 2: just like take over me. And also it's like this 1702 01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:44,040 Speaker 2: this grief about being a younger version of myself and 1703 01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:48,280 Speaker 2: just like a different part of life. It really feels 1704 01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:50,479 Speaker 2: like that was a magical time and now it's like 1705 01:49:51,439 --> 01:49:53,840 Speaker 2: I have to let that be and I need to 1706 01:49:54,400 --> 01:49:57,320 Speaker 2: find a way to, you know, keep moving and look 1707 01:49:57,360 --> 01:49:58,280 Speaker 2: forward to the future. 1708 01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:00,200 Speaker 1: When did your father pass us? 1709 01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:06,080 Speaker 2: He passed away a month before this record. We supported 1710 01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:08,320 Speaker 2: it before I recorded it. Yeah, so it was a 1711 01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:12,800 Speaker 2: year ago in February, and then I went into the 1712 01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:18,720 Speaker 2: studio in March. So it was really sudden, and it 1713 01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:21,639 Speaker 2: was pretty Yeah, it was pretty recent. 1714 01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:26,400 Speaker 1: Okay, you've had this parapatetic lifestyle, you drop out of 1715 01:50:26,479 --> 01:50:30,479 Speaker 1: high school, you go on the road. Now, as we 1716 01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:34,839 Speaker 1: said earlier in the New York Times, where were your father, 1717 01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:39,000 Speaker 1: your aunt, and your uncle about all this? 1718 01:50:40,240 --> 01:50:46,760 Speaker 2: They were really supportive. My dad particularly was really supportive 1719 01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:50,840 Speaker 2: of my music. You know. He he randomly sent me, 1720 01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:57,920 Speaker 2: like the week that he got sick, he randomly sent 1721 01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:02,320 Speaker 2: me a box with every CD I'd ever sent him. 1722 01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:05,360 Speaker 2: Because I just like thought he was the coolest. I mean, 1723 01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:07,719 Speaker 2: he drove me crazy, but he was like a jazz musician, 1724 01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:11,120 Speaker 2: so I just thought he was the shit. And he 1725 01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:14,800 Speaker 2: sent me. It was CDs from jazz bands on the 1726 01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:17,080 Speaker 2: Street that I'd sent him that I was recorded on. 1727 01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,080 Speaker 2: It was the dead Man Street Orchestra, was all my 1728 01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:21,000 Speaker 2: early records. 1729 01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:21,280 Speaker 1: You know. 1730 01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:23,680 Speaker 2: He's on the cover of Lookout Mama. So that was 1731 01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:29,080 Speaker 2: a huge moment for him. So he was so supportive. 1732 01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:32,360 Speaker 2: And my aunt and uncle were really supportive too. 1733 01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:37,080 Speaker 1: Let's be very clear, when you're riding the trains and 1734 01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:39,800 Speaker 1: you're in the Dead Mid Orchestra, were they supportive then? 1735 01:51:41,320 --> 01:51:45,760 Speaker 2: I mean more so are you gonna die? Like? My 1736 01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:49,320 Speaker 2: aunt for sure went through many years of are you 1737 01:51:49,439 --> 01:51:50,040 Speaker 2: going to die? 1738 01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:50,439 Speaker 1: Like? 1739 01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:54,519 Speaker 2: That was just I mean, bless her heart, you know, 1740 01:51:54,800 --> 01:51:57,479 Speaker 2: Like to me, I was like, I'm having the time 1741 01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,519 Speaker 2: of my fucking life, even when it's horrible, I'm having 1742 01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:02,600 Speaker 2: the time of my life. And to her, she's just like, 1743 01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:06,479 Speaker 2: what are you doing? Are you gonna survive? You know? 1744 01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:10,040 Speaker 2: Once I started, I think her life got a lot 1745 01:52:10,080 --> 01:52:14,160 Speaker 2: easier when I like settled in New Orleans, got a job, 1746 01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:17,679 Speaker 2: and she was excited that I was, you know, starting 1747 01:52:17,680 --> 01:52:20,320 Speaker 2: to write songs, and she didn't understand the music at all. 1748 01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:25,600 Speaker 2: It's definitely not her style of music. But once that 1749 01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:28,000 Speaker 2: started happening, there was so much relief. There was never 1750 01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:32,160 Speaker 2: a lot of like shame about me not going to college. 1751 01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:35,559 Speaker 2: I mean now we joke about how I saved so 1752 01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:38,400 Speaker 2: much debt, Like I'm not in debt because I didn't 1753 01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:44,120 Speaker 2: go to fucking college, you know. So, but there was 1754 01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:48,520 Speaker 2: this relief and appreciation when when I started this band. 1755 01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:50,680 Speaker 1: And what is your brother up to? 1756 01:52:52,560 --> 01:52:54,600 Speaker 2: He was a police officer in New York for a 1757 01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:59,599 Speaker 2: long time. That was attention. That was like to completely 1758 01:52:59,680 --> 01:53:05,120 Speaker 2: separate it separate people. But he was super supportive too. 1759 01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:07,479 Speaker 2: We just like didn't talk about politics ever. 1760 01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:10,720 Speaker 1: Okay, do you have health insurance? 1761 01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:12,160 Speaker 2: I do? Now? 1762 01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:14,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, when did you get it? 1763 01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:17,240 Speaker 2: Uh? Well, actually when I signed to none such. 1764 01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:22,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So you've had this amazing career going on for 1765 01:53:23,200 --> 01:53:28,000 Speaker 1: basically two decades at this point or so. You're living 1766 01:53:28,200 --> 01:53:34,440 Speaker 1: the dream. But you're an incredibly driven, persistent person, constantly 1767 01:53:34,479 --> 01:53:37,719 Speaker 1: putting one foot in front of the other. Yeah, what 1768 01:53:37,960 --> 01:53:41,439 Speaker 1: is the dream? What is the target in front of you? 1769 01:53:42,880 --> 01:53:48,479 Speaker 2: I think about this all the time. For me, it's 1770 01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:50,479 Speaker 2: that I want to get to a place where I 1771 01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:55,200 Speaker 2: can have when I can where I have a solid 1772 01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:59,559 Speaker 2: and supportive crew that I can pay well, and that 1773 01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:03,400 Speaker 2: we can tour in a way that's easier on our bodies, 1774 01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:06,400 Speaker 2: and that also we're putting on the best show we 1775 01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:10,160 Speaker 2: can put on. Like, I want to feel more support 1776 01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:15,840 Speaker 2: in doing the art of performing, so that means I 1777 01:54:15,880 --> 01:54:19,080 Speaker 2: would My goal is to get to a place where 1778 01:54:19,080 --> 01:54:22,240 Speaker 2: I have a small crew, you know, like monitors, front 1779 01:54:22,240 --> 01:54:27,479 Speaker 2: of house, maybe lighting, and my band, and that we 1780 01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,160 Speaker 2: can be in a bus and that we can play 1781 01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:37,720 Speaker 2: for a dedicated fan base until I'm old. But also 1782 01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:41,680 Speaker 2: I want to start writing. I think that's like a 1783 01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:44,120 Speaker 2: really important part of my future. I don't want to 1784 01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:48,800 Speaker 2: I want to tour when I put out a record, 1785 01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:52,880 Speaker 2: but I don't want to be constantly hustling. I'd love 1786 01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:56,000 Speaker 2: to explore writing more and I would love to write 1787 01:54:56,000 --> 01:55:00,880 Speaker 2: a memoir one day and just open up those roads 1788 01:55:00,880 --> 01:55:06,040 Speaker 2: for myself. For me success. I don't have any illusions 1789 01:55:06,040 --> 01:55:09,680 Speaker 2: about becoming this huge commercial success. I don't really like 1790 01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:15,280 Speaker 2: I would. What I want is to feel like I'm 1791 01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:18,440 Speaker 2: I have the tools and the support to make my 1792 01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:21,760 Speaker 2: art and that I'm a working musician. That isn't Also 1793 01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:26,840 Speaker 2: like just sometimes I think tour is like constant punishment 1794 01:55:27,000 --> 01:55:29,400 Speaker 2: at this level, and I want it to be a 1795 01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:30,800 Speaker 2: little less punishing. 1796 01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:35,839 Speaker 1: You know, Okay, the goal is direct, but let's snap 1797 01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:39,920 Speaker 1: our fingers. You're in a bus, You're playing to two 1798 01:55:40,000 --> 01:55:44,560 Speaker 1: thousand people a night. You can tour pretty much as 1799 01:55:44,920 --> 01:55:48,080 Speaker 1: much as you want to. Let's say you we hit 1800 01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:50,960 Speaker 1: that hurdle and you can do that to the end 1801 01:55:51,040 --> 01:55:54,280 Speaker 1: of time. Yeah, you think that's going to be happy 1802 01:55:54,400 --> 01:55:55,800 Speaker 1: enough for you? Are you going to say, well, I'm 1803 01:55:55,840 --> 01:55:59,080 Speaker 1: here now, I'd like to get to the next level. 1804 01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:02,440 Speaker 2: No, no, if you I mean you talk to musicians 1805 01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:05,320 Speaker 2: all the time. Sometimes the most the people that are 1806 01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:09,000 Speaker 2: struggling the most are above that level. And like, I 1807 01:56:09,400 --> 01:56:13,040 Speaker 2: see that a lot, and I don't like. Fame doesn't 1808 01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:17,520 Speaker 2: look great to me. Fame looks terrible. What looks great 1809 01:56:17,560 --> 01:56:21,480 Speaker 2: to me is like se level fame. You know, like 1810 01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:23,640 Speaker 2: your situation. 1811 01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:28,720 Speaker 1: Your situation is not the average beer. Okay, you made 1812 01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:33,280 Speaker 1: records independently, you put them out on independent records. You're 1813 01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:37,000 Speaker 1: on the major label. Now. Most people never make it 1814 01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:40,480 Speaker 1: to the major label unless they're pop or hip hop. Yeah, 1815 01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:42,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of them. The major label came early 1816 01:56:43,600 --> 01:56:47,720 Speaker 1: yeah okay, and then it went behind. So there's a 1817 01:56:47,840 --> 01:56:53,520 Speaker 1: level of persistence and belief that the average person doesn't have, 1818 01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:58,280 Speaker 1: never mind that almost everybody would have given up along 1819 01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:03,800 Speaker 1: the way. Yeah, so it's hard. Two things. I've never 1820 01:57:03,840 --> 01:57:06,120 Speaker 1: met an artist who didn't want to have more people 1821 01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:10,400 Speaker 1: exposed to their art. And of course, being an artist, 1822 01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:13,520 Speaker 1: your stuff is out there. You don't really know who's listening, 1823 01:57:13,560 --> 01:57:17,920 Speaker 1: You don't really know how much acceptance is there. But yes, 1824 01:57:18,360 --> 01:57:21,440 Speaker 1: you're moving forward. You're moving forward, You're climbing the ladder. 1825 01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, are you going to sit here and say no, 1826 01:57:25,440 --> 01:57:28,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to play Madison Square Garden or say 1827 01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:29,240 Speaker 1: that'd be pretty good? 1828 01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be pretty good. 1829 01:57:32,920 --> 01:57:37,600 Speaker 1: Right, Okay? And in terms of musicians, you know, as 1830 01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:44,240 Speaker 1: one gains success both critically and commercially, opportunities arise. You're 1831 01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:48,520 Speaker 1: on the road with the bright eyes. But now have 1832 01:57:48,640 --> 01:57:52,680 Speaker 1: there been other opportunities of meeting heroes, whether it's just 1833 01:57:52,760 --> 01:57:55,440 Speaker 1: being in the environment or working with them. 1834 01:57:56,320 --> 01:58:00,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's been mostly literary heroes, which I've find 1835 01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:08,560 Speaker 2: really interesting. I haven't really connected with that many musicians 1836 01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:13,840 Speaker 2: who are my heroes, but like I've met recently some 1837 01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:18,440 Speaker 2: poets and some writers. Honey f Abduah KiB Me and 1838 01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:21,040 Speaker 2: him did a talk when I was in New York, 1839 01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:25,240 Speaker 2: and I met this poet Ocean w Wang and of 1840 01:58:25,280 --> 01:58:28,320 Speaker 2: course Eileen Miles, who I talk about on this record. 1841 01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:35,320 Speaker 2: That to me is where I really feel like I 1842 01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,040 Speaker 2: am living my dream. When I'm meeting like these types 1843 01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:44,280 Speaker 2: of artists of different mediums, it kind of frees me 1844 01:58:44,640 --> 01:58:49,200 Speaker 2: of like the bullshit of music. Sometimes with other musicians, 1845 01:58:49,200 --> 01:58:54,480 Speaker 2: I feel so like the hierarchies are so a part 1846 01:58:54,480 --> 01:58:57,960 Speaker 2: of the conversation, and there's a lot of sizing up, 1847 01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:00,000 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of like you're at this level. 1848 01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:03,920 Speaker 2: I'm at this level. So I really enjoy being around 1849 01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:06,440 Speaker 2: writers because I feel like all of that goes away. 1850 01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:10,200 Speaker 2: I don't have to worry about that stuff, which is 1851 01:59:10,200 --> 01:59:12,320 Speaker 2: another reason why I came to Chicago, because I felt 1852 01:59:12,400 --> 01:59:16,200 Speaker 2: like musicians here are not really playing that game, you know, 1853 01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:20,640 Speaker 2: a similar thing with New Orleans. So I haven't really 1854 01:59:20,680 --> 01:59:22,600 Speaker 2: met a lot of my musical heroes. 1855 01:59:23,000 --> 01:59:25,760 Speaker 1: In terms of these poets and other writers you've met, 1856 01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:29,600 Speaker 1: Has this just been by accident? Have you reached out 1857 01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:31,280 Speaker 1: to them? Have they reached out to you? 1858 01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:35,760 Speaker 2: Well, with Honi, if it was you know, a set, 1859 01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:40,320 Speaker 2: it was like an event. So my publicist Greg reached 1860 01:59:40,360 --> 01:59:43,680 Speaker 2: out to him and he was he wanted to do it. 1861 01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:47,520 Speaker 2: So I was excited, and then with these other poets, 1862 01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:52,360 Speaker 2: it was like, I, well, one person reached out to me. 1863 01:59:52,640 --> 01:59:55,400 Speaker 2: But then like by chance, I happened to actually meet 1864 01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:59,160 Speaker 2: Eileen Miles, who's a poet that I'm completely obsessed with. 1865 02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:01,320 Speaker 2: So it's been a mixture. 1866 02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Okay, a couple of times during our conversation you mentioned 1867 02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:10,800 Speaker 1: political things. Yeah, the nature of being a touring musician 1868 02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:14,240 Speaker 1: is you're in all of these communities that a lot 1869 02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:16,720 Speaker 1: of people were writing at infinite and really have no 1870 02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:20,720 Speaker 1: idea what's going on, what is going on in the country. 1871 02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:24,560 Speaker 2: Jesus, I've been trying to check out. Honestly, I like 1872 02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:28,440 Speaker 2: I've after life on Earth, I you know, especially living 1873 02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:34,120 Speaker 2: in New Orleans and with watching the Insurrection live on TV, 1874 02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:40,240 Speaker 2: I definitely felt like I don't want to be the 1875 02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:45,840 Speaker 2: warrior in this fucking crazy war. Like I felt a 1876 02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:50,720 Speaker 2: very real this is not it's not safe, and it's 1877 02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:55,600 Speaker 2: not good for me to be out trying to convince 1878 02:00:55,680 --> 02:00:58,720 Speaker 2: people of something or rally people in the same way 1879 02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:03,760 Speaker 2: that I was during Navigator. I felt much more like 1880 02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:08,920 Speaker 2: I have to take care of my my spiritual health, 1881 02:01:09,080 --> 02:01:14,840 Speaker 2: my physical health, you know. So and also more and 1882 02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:18,600 Speaker 2: more I don't understand what's going on with our country 1883 02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:23,200 Speaker 2: because I don't think I'm as online as a lot 1884 02:01:23,240 --> 02:01:28,120 Speaker 2: of the the like, which is the method of like 1885 02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:34,360 Speaker 2: what's drawing up the chaos and the insanity. The America 1886 02:01:34,400 --> 02:01:38,080 Speaker 2: that I see when I'm touring is the people that 1887 02:01:38,120 --> 02:01:43,120 Speaker 2: are not hiding behind their computer, you know. So I'm 1888 02:01:43,160 --> 02:01:50,200 Speaker 2: just seeing this different these different people, like I'm seeing 1889 02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:55,960 Speaker 2: the person side of them. And it's also felt personally 1890 02:01:56,040 --> 02:01:59,080 Speaker 2: in my travels. It's felt a lot less tense than 1891 02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:03,800 Speaker 2: it was when we were touring under Trump. That was 1892 02:02:04,040 --> 02:02:07,360 Speaker 2: it just felt like that was the first time I 1893 02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:09,480 Speaker 2: really experienced like, oh, you walk into a gas station, 1894 02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:11,480 Speaker 2: It's like we should get the fuck out at this 1895 02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:14,680 Speaker 2: gas station, you know. And that's after I had toured 1896 02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:19,560 Speaker 2: with like trans people looking crazy all over the Southeast 1897 02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:24,840 Speaker 2: before he before he was elected, you know, and I'd 1898 02:02:24,840 --> 02:02:27,680 Speaker 2: never felt the way I did like when he was president. 1899 02:02:28,360 --> 02:02:34,080 Speaker 2: So it's feeling it's definitely been feeling less tense, less 1900 02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:38,160 Speaker 2: like at war. But also there's just this feeling of like, 1901 02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:41,600 Speaker 2: whatever is brewing, I have no idea what's going to 1902 02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:45,200 Speaker 2: happen with this election, and I'm trying not to consistently 1903 02:02:45,360 --> 02:02:48,680 Speaker 2: check my phone every hour for like a new poll. 1904 02:02:49,560 --> 02:02:51,200 Speaker 2: I told myself I wouldn't. 1905 02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:55,400 Speaker 1: And you know, there's some musicians who only listen to 1906 02:02:55,440 --> 02:02:59,280 Speaker 1: their own music, others who are really students of the 1907 02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:02,360 Speaker 1: game check everything out. Where are you on that continuum? 1908 02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:07,320 Speaker 2: I love to check everything out. I'm definitely a music lover, 1909 02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:14,920 Speaker 2: and I'm really excited about new music. I I feel 1910 02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:18,280 Speaker 2: like there was a period where I really didn't relate, 1911 02:03:18,400 --> 02:03:20,720 Speaker 2: and that was when I was putting out like Lookout Mama. 1912 02:03:21,360 --> 02:03:23,680 Speaker 2: You know, I related to this scene in the Southeast, 1913 02:03:23,720 --> 02:03:27,480 Speaker 2: but that was really it. But now there's just like 1914 02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:33,040 Speaker 2: so many very popular artists in like indie world that 1915 02:03:33,400 --> 02:03:35,720 Speaker 2: I love and I'm really inspired by. 1916 02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:38,240 Speaker 1: Well, since you say that, give me two. 1917 02:03:39,200 --> 02:03:42,280 Speaker 2: Adrian Linker, of course, I think is just like one 1918 02:03:42,320 --> 02:03:46,600 Speaker 2: of the best songwriters that's ever lived. Sometimes listening to 1919 02:03:46,680 --> 02:03:52,400 Speaker 2: her music just like makes me sad because I'm like, 1920 02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:56,040 Speaker 2: how did you write that song? But I also love 1921 02:03:56,160 --> 02:03:59,920 Speaker 2: that feeling. I love feeling like damn, how the fuck 1922 02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:05,280 Speaker 2: did you write that? So that's a really great example. 1923 02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:10,280 Speaker 2: And also I've been a huge fan of Ezra Furman 1924 02:04:10,440 --> 02:04:13,880 Speaker 2: for a long time. She put out a record called 1925 02:04:14,000 --> 02:04:19,120 Speaker 2: Transandelic Exodus right when I put out Navigator, and that 1926 02:04:19,320 --> 02:04:21,840 Speaker 2: was someone that I thought, Wow, we are on the 1927 02:04:21,840 --> 02:04:25,360 Speaker 2: same page, We're the same type of artist. I'd really 1928 02:04:25,400 --> 02:04:28,200 Speaker 2: like to collaborate with her someday. And I just think 1929 02:04:28,200 --> 02:04:31,240 Speaker 2: that record, trans Angelic Exodus is like one of the 1930 02:04:31,280 --> 02:04:36,240 Speaker 2: best albums in like the past decade for sure. It 1931 02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:41,760 Speaker 2: feels like it feels very similar to like Hedwig, also 1932 02:04:42,160 --> 02:04:43,960 Speaker 2: to like Ziggy start Us. I don't know, it just 1933 02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:46,280 Speaker 2: feels like this epic tale, you know. 1934 02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:49,840 Speaker 1: Okay, Linda, I think we've come to the end of 1935 02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:53,040 Speaker 1: the feeling we've known. It's been great talking to you. 1936 02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:55,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being open and honest. It's 1937 02:04:55,440 --> 02:04:56,120 Speaker 1: been a pleasure. 1938 02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:58,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 1939 02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:02,240 Speaker 1: Next time, this is Bob left Sex 1940 02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:24,120 Speaker 2: Sh