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Speaker 1: Anyone that comes over to Shapi Low's residents. By the way, listeners,

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Speaker 1: that's our ship name, Shapiro Low's. If you come over

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Speaker 1: to our house, there's a few cupboards you could open

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Speaker 1: up if you're like looking for a wine cup or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That just supplements are going to come poor house.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, eight percent of Americans use some sort

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Speaker 2: of sleep aid, according to the National Center of Sleep Statistics.

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Speaker 1: And Nielsen says that we spend over a billion. Yeah, baby,

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Speaker 1: that's a billion with a B dollars a year on

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Speaker 1: melatonin alone.

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Speaker 2: WHOA. People will do just about anything to get a

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Speaker 2: good night's sleep.

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Speaker 3: It's the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Katie Low's and I'm Adam Shapiro and this

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Speaker 1: is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: in partnership with Mattress Firm.

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Speaker 2: On this episode, we want to talk about nutrition and

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Speaker 2: fitness and quality sleep. Let's just call it the holistic

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Speaker 2: health triangle.

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Speaker 1: We are busy people, actors, entrepreneurs, parents, podcast hosts, and

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Speaker 1: sleep is like really really important to us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And because our health and our families health is

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Speaker 2: so important. That's why I've been looking forward to this episode.

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Speaker 2: Our guests include doctor Chris Winter, a sleep neurologist and

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Speaker 2: scientist who has authored.

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Speaker 3: Two books about sleep.

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Speaker 2: Chris is at the forefront of research and studies about

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Speaker 2: the science behind sleep supplements.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Chris.

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Speaker 4: I'm excited to be back. This is a fantastic topic.

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Speaker 1: Chris advises a lot of athletes and professional sports teams

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Speaker 1: on how quality sleep can help maximize performance.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I even understand that you worked with my

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Speaker 2: hometown heroes, the Philadelphia Phillies.

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Speaker 1: And Danielle la Fata is also with us. She's director

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Speaker 1: of Performance Nutrition for the Phoenix Suns. She figures out

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Speaker 1: what these top athletes need to be eating to be

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Speaker 1: their best and making sure that they get good quality

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Speaker 1: sleep so that they can return to the play offs

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Speaker 1: again next year. Welcome Danielle, so nice to meet you.

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Speaker 5: It's nice to meet you guys as well. Thank you

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Speaker 5: for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much Danielle and Chris for being here

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Speaker 1: to talk about sleep and supplements, which is a hot

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Speaker 1: button topic amongst me and all my mom friends and

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Speaker 1: my mom herself included.

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Speaker 2: Chris, We're gonna get started with you, nutrition, fitness, sleep.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the holistic health triangle.

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Speaker 2: As I recall my high school geometry, is this an

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Speaker 2: equilateral triangle?

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Speaker 1: Hold on a second, Adam, you took high school geometry

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Speaker 1: and you remember any of it?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I did, Katie, Okay, I didn't say I did

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Speaker 3: well in it.

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Speaker 1: Chris, tell us about this holistic health triangle.

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Speaker 4: I always think about it as four legs of a table,

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Speaker 4: so I'm more of a quad guy. I think about exercise, nutrition, mindfulness,

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Speaker 4: and then sleep. I think mindfulness really starts with trying

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Speaker 4: to understand not only your own sleep and maybe issues

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Speaker 4: you may be having with your sleep, but also the

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Speaker 4: emotion that you're bringing with it. Those are sort of

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Speaker 4: my four I think. You know, if you take one

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Speaker 4: of those legs away, the table collapses.

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Speaker 1: Chris, how do you define sleep supplements?

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Speaker 4: I think the best way to define supplement is something

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Speaker 4: that's taking a process that's hopefully already pretty healthy and

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Speaker 4: making it even a little bit more healthy. So what

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Speaker 4: we're looking at is a biochemical reaction that starts from

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Speaker 4: the time we ingest food to the point we're actually

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Speaker 4: making chemicals in our brain that support sleep. Serotone and

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Speaker 4: melatone and dopamine or rexin. There's a bunch of them,

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Speaker 4: and along each pathway you're taking the proteins in milk

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Speaker 4: and breaking them down to an amino acid. That trip

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Speaker 4: to fan gets converted into something else, and eventually you

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Speaker 4: get melatonin. And there's all these steps and all these

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Speaker 4: cofactors and minerals that are important to support that process.

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Speaker 4: And for an elite athlete like Danielle's working for, that

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Speaker 4: matters a tremendous amount. But if you're listening to this thinking, oh,

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Speaker 4: how much magnism do I need to get so I

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Speaker 4: can get some sleep, there's a reason why we don't

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Speaker 4: call them treatments. We understand very clearly how these things

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Speaker 4: are best used and where they're not going to be

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Speaker 4: particularly helpful.

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Speaker 1: And Danielle, you help manage all three or even four

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Speaker 1: of these, which Chris has mentioned the mindfulness part. The

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Speaker 1: three I'm talking about are the nutrition, fitness, and sleep

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Speaker 1: you manage. These were top athletes who compete at their

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Speaker 1: physical and mental best. Let's just like get into this.

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Speaker 1: Do you recommend supplements?

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Speaker 5: Yes? I do.

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Speaker 6: I am still food first, supplement second, but I always

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Speaker 6: talk about being smart with our supplementation. Chris can talk

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Speaker 6: to this a little bit more, right, they're also phases

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Speaker 6: of sleep. Are you having a hard time falling asleep

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Speaker 6: or are you having time staying asleep? And so then

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Speaker 6: that's where food, nutrition, hydration at a potential supplement could

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Speaker 6: come in. So just really understanding what's going on and

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Speaker 6: what's needed.

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Speaker 2: What would you say are the connections between nutrition and

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Speaker 2: quality sleep.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's finding that sweet spot for people where you

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Speaker 6: can have a light snack one to two hours before

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Speaker 6: going to bed if needed. When I speak with my athletes,

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Speaker 6: whether it's my bench guys, and they didn't play very

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Speaker 6: many minutes, but they still had a warm up, and

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Speaker 6: they still went in earlier in the morning, and they're

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Speaker 6: still not going to bed until one or two o'clock

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Speaker 6: after the game.

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Speaker 5: They still need to eat.

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Speaker 6: So maybe it's more of an in between meal, not

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Speaker 6: so much as a real heavy dinner, but it's not

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Speaker 6: a light snack somewhere in between for them, whereas my

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Speaker 6: starters or my high minutes players.

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Speaker 5: Yes, they'll need to eat post game.

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Speaker 6: So it's explaining to them that because they're like, oh,

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Speaker 6: I shouldn't eat late at night, I can't eat late

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Speaker 6: at night. Well, you've been active for the last five

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Speaker 6: six hours and now you're not going to go to

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Speaker 6: sleep for another couple hours because you're all revveed up.

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Speaker 6: So it's looking at each individual and seeing where you're

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Speaker 6: at your physical activity or non activity throughout the day,

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Speaker 6: and how we could adjust your meal patterning.

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Speaker 1: I'm just getting flashbacks to Adam in my honeymoon in Italy,

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Speaker 1: where we romantically thought it was going to be amazing

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Speaker 1: and it was. I mean, honey, don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: it was amazing, but we had to sleep sitting up

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Speaker 1: for so much of it because we were eating.

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Speaker 3: Red wine and red sauce and red tomatoes.

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Speaker 1: You just pasta red wine meals and like trying to

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Speaker 1: lay down on it. I mean, I still like it

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Speaker 1: rises up into my throat when I even think about

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Speaker 1: It's so grossy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we should have done those big Florentine steaks at lunch.

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Speaker 3: Yes, sure, Chris.

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Speaker 1: The athletes you work with and me too, like we

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Speaker 1: love to travel. In your experience flying with athletes in

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Speaker 1: and out of different time zones and dealing with different

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Speaker 1: types of sleep schedules to get them on the right

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Speaker 1: sleep schedule, what do you do with all of the

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Speaker 1: teams that are flying around and changing time zones constantly.

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Speaker 4: It depends on a couple things. The first is what

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Speaker 4: is your mission. If the mission is to fly to London,

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Speaker 4: give a lecture and go right back home, then you

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Speaker 4: may not really want to acclimate to the time zone right.

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Speaker 4: A great example is, you know a lot of times

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Speaker 4: a team will play a preseason game in Mumbai, India.

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Speaker 4: They want people not to get hurt, not to lose

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Speaker 4: a player, and just reacclimate to that time zone they've

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Speaker 4: come from as quickly as possible. Or you're trying to

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Speaker 4: get to a place and actually enjoy it, like Italy,

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Speaker 4: you know, and the meal is so interesting. It's like,

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Speaker 4: let's all meet back here at three o'clock in the

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Speaker 4: morning on this zoom call and have like heavy alfredo

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Speaker 4: and see how our bodies adjust to it. It's like

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Speaker 4: we could do it if we did it every night,

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Speaker 4: three m alfredo, big pasta dinner, we'd eventually get used

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Speaker 4: to it. But this is kind of what we're looking at.

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Speaker 4: We're trying to adjust to a different timing for our athleticism,

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Speaker 4: a different timing for our eating, and a different timing

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Speaker 4: for our sleep. So there's all kinds of interventions you

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Speaker 4: can use to speed that process up. But it's different

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Speaker 4: for every athlete. But there's all kinds of interventions that

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Speaker 4: can adjust our circadian rhythm a little bit faster than

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Speaker 4: it would typically if we did nothing in the direction

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Speaker 4: of travel matters. It's easier for us to stay a

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Speaker 4: little bit later than to go to bed early right

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Speaker 4: before we're ready, so that that kind of plays a

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Speaker 4: role in it as well too.

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Speaker 1: This is like an example. We love our whole families

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Speaker 1: on the East Coast. We live on the West Coast,

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Speaker 1: so I always say, bring your kids to New York.

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Speaker 1: Instead of giving them dinner at five o'clock, which is

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Speaker 1: what we do here, you know, let them eat at

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Speaker 1: eight pm with the whole family, and then they sleep

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Speaker 1: later too.

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Speaker 3: We love an East coast trip.

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Speaker 1: What would be some examples of ways that you could

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Speaker 1: supplement if you were going to intervene and try to

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Speaker 1: change someone's sleep schedule for a different time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's lots of ways to do it. Now,

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Speaker 4: I like to be thoughtful. What are you giving your

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Speaker 4: child right before they get on the plane. I love

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Speaker 4: there's little hummus bowls with the little pretzel chips. Hummus

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Speaker 4: is a ton of trip to fan in it. So

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Speaker 4: we always talk about trip to fan and the Thanksgiving turkey.

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Speaker 4: There's way more trip to fan in chickpeas and hummus

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Speaker 4: than there is in a traditional store bought turkey. So

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Speaker 4: I like cam and meal tea. Like you got to

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Speaker 4: be careful, you know, want to give the kids, you know,

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Speaker 4: green tea or caffeinated tea, but maybe you make a

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Speaker 4: little thing of you know, camimeal tea or ice it

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Speaker 4: and you have that in their sippy cups. And Okay,

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Speaker 4: we're gonna drink our relaxing teas before we get on there.

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Speaker 4: I mean, none of those things are going to hurt.

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Speaker 4: And again, might you know, create a little bit more relaxation,

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Speaker 4: a little bit more sedation that this sort of helps

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Speaker 4: the plane flight a little bit.

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Speaker 6: So one easy thing is not even a supplement, but

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Speaker 6: a juice. Right, tart cherry juice is blown up all

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Speaker 6: over the place. I've been using it for about ten

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Speaker 6: years with my athletes.

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Speaker 1: What I've never heard of this?

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Speaker 3: Did you say tart cherry juice?

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Speaker 6: Tart cherry juice, not the sweet bing cherries. It has

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Speaker 6: to be the tart Montmorency cherries.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 6: Yes, the science shows us that it's fifty cherries, whether

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Speaker 6: they're frozen, dried, or squeezed into an eight ounced juice.

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Speaker 6: There's naturally occurring melatonin in the cherries and it's kind

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Speaker 6: of like a time release, and then there's also some

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Speaker 6: extra antioxidant, so that could really help. I do want

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Speaker 6: to say, if you're having issues with your sugars and

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Speaker 6: there's some pre diabetes or anything, you're definitely going to

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Speaker 6: want to figure out how to blend that with you know,

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Speaker 6: some proteins and some fats and fibers so that sugar

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Speaker 6: doesn't dump right into your system.

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Speaker 5: But yes, that's a really easy thing to do.

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Speaker 6: And a lot of my athletes and non athletes, they

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Speaker 6: swear by it.

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Speaker 5: I swear by it. It works really well. Whow Yes.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you can take it anytime to day. You can

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Speaker 6: take it at night, you can take it in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Where do you buy it? Any grocery store, Any grocery store.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I worked with the US men's national

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Speaker 6: soccer team and I introduced it to them as well.

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Speaker 6: So there were a few of us with soccer. We

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Speaker 6: would come together in different cities or countries, and so

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Speaker 6: we would do a nightcap and we would do little

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Speaker 6: shots of tar cherry juice.

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Speaker 5: So that was our way of getting it.

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Speaker 1: Very different than what I've ever done experienced. I'm interested

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Speaker 1: that was our nightcap in this on this same subject.

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Speaker 1: And please both of you feel free to answer. What

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Speaker 1: are the minerals, vitamins, nutrients that people could try or

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Speaker 1: that you suggest before resorting to a sleep supplement. This

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Speaker 1: tart cherry juice is one of them. Yes, what are

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Speaker 1: other things on the list?

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Speaker 6: Yes, I'd recommend camin meal tea would be fantastic. High

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Speaker 6: magnesium foods, so your nuts, in your seeds, magnesiums are great,

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Speaker 6: just overall relaxing.

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Speaker 1: And then Chris, when we're resorting to the supplements, what

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Speaker 1: is that? Are we talking like natural like magnesium powder,

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Speaker 1: magnesium pills? What are people doing?

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Speaker 4: I would say that magnesium is important for the support

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Speaker 4: of good sleep. Neurologists that used to work with said,

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Speaker 4: you know what, brains love magnesium. So to me, what

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Speaker 4: I would say to a patient who may be struggling

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Speaker 4: with sleep is have you had your magnesium checked. I've

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Speaker 4: been educated by a lot of dieticians and nutritions out

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Speaker 4: there that say, you'd be surprised how many elite level

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Speaker 4: basketball players show up at training camp and they're magnesium deficient.

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Speaker 4: So I would say this is a great thing to

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Speaker 4: test for, and the people who are deficient, maybe magnesium

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Speaker 4: supplementation could be helpful or you're not going to get

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Speaker 4: into a lot of trouble just taking a reasonable supplement

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Speaker 4: of magnesium yourself. To me, it's all about expectation. I

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Speaker 4: think where we run into trouble is I have been

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Speaker 4: struggling with sleep for years. I am lucky if I

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Speaker 4: get two hours of sleep. I have this terrible, anxiety

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Speaker 4: fraught relationship with sleep. How about magnesium. I don't think

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Speaker 4: magnesium is going to touch that.

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Speaker 6: I think Chris brings up a great point, right, you

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Speaker 6: want to get to the root of what it is

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Speaker 6: and where in your sleep what's happening, and then that

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Speaker 6: way you can start little things and maybe a supplement

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Speaker 6: is or is not part of your program, but it's

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Speaker 6: just a band aid.

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Speaker 1: Really, Okay, I went on a huge melatonin kick. I've

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Speaker 1: been on the magnesium powder kick. I've been on the

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Speaker 1: CBD kick. I'm trying to think. I think that might

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Speaker 1: be Adam, you think that's it. I feel like those

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Speaker 1: are my three.

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Speaker 3: Well what's the sleepy tea? Is that a high magnesium.

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Speaker 4: Tea Cammeo passion flower, Valerian.

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Speaker 1: Usually, Oh yeah, Valerian Root.

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Speaker 3: There's another one, yeah, Valerian Root. But how are those

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Speaker 3: things working?

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Speaker 2: I mean, what about nighttime rituals, something that you can

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Speaker 2: put into your routine that may help with your sleep.

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Speaker 3: Are you a tea person?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, My wife's a big tea person. In fact,

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Speaker 4: I grow camrameal. I think it's fun to grow it

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Speaker 4: and dry it out and grind it up and stick

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Speaker 4: it a little thing. So I think that's great. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think when you're looking at well, Chris, I'd like

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Speaker 4: to know more about supplements and figure out ways to

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Speaker 4: integrate them into a healthier sleep lifestyle. I think bedtime

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Speaker 4: routine is a huge place for it. So there's the

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Speaker 4: tea Camimeo passion Flower, Valerian Root. I think nothing's better

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Speaker 4: than every evening you're settling down to watch your episode

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Speaker 4: of whatever or read your chapter of whatever, and you

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Speaker 4: enjoy your camerameal tea. We used to do that with

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Speaker 4: our kids, like we would make you tea and kind

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Speaker 4: of deliver it to their bedrooms when they were doing

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Speaker 4: homework and calculus just kind of Okay, let's dim some

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Speaker 4: lights here, let's get the phones hooked up downstairs. Here's

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Speaker 4: your tea. Just this kind of it kind of creates

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Speaker 4: this rhythm, ah, when you smell the tea and you

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Speaker 4: feel the warmth and you taste the cammeal. Maybe the

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Speaker 4: cammeal has some sort of relaxing property improves your sleep,

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Speaker 4: but it does always serve as that queue to oh,

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Speaker 4: tasting the cam meal, it's about time to go to bed.

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Speaker 4: It's like the lavender spray on your pillow. I love

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Speaker 4: lattes and I would drink a latte every night if

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Speaker 4: it didn't screw up my sleep. So my newest one

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Speaker 4: is it's got all kinds of different eshwagandha and all

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Speaker 4: these different alfhienine I think in mushroom optogens and all

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Speaker 4: these things that sort of support sleep no caffeine. So

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Speaker 4: I think that's where you can really find a solid

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Speaker 4: hook into the supplement world. Is trying to kind of

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Speaker 4: build these things into a routine to support not only

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Speaker 4: better sleep, it's better health.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a fascinating discussion, and we are

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Speaker 2: not done more to come.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. In this episode, we are

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Speaker 1: aiming for peak performance. We're talking about sleep and supplements

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Speaker 1: with Danielle Lafata, who helps the Phoenix suns eat well

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Speaker 1: and get good sleep, and sleep specialist doctor Chris Winter,

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Speaker 1: who works with lots of pro athletes too along with

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Speaker 1: regular people like us. What do you think, Chris, what

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Speaker 1: should our listeners consider when looking at supplements.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a tough thing. And I'll say right off

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Speaker 4: the bat, you know, I tend to be pretty much

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Speaker 4: a stickler for research, but you know, in terms of

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Speaker 4: great research behind sleep, I would say that's a little lacking.

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Speaker 4: I think it's important to understand that just because there

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Speaker 4: isn't research behind something doesn't mean it's not true. It

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Speaker 4: just means we can't stay with a lot of authority

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Speaker 4: about that. You know, certain ingredients maybe in my non

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Speaker 4: latte latte may kind of fall into that category of

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Speaker 4: maybe in five years we're talking about, Wow, the adaptogens

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Speaker 4: were so important. I think this is where consumer technology

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Speaker 4: sort of comes in and really works at its best

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Speaker 4: when you're asking it a question. So why he says, us,

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Speaker 4: sleep's terrible? So I bought this thing. I'll put it

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Speaker 4: on my wrist. Do the experiment. Hey, Okay, take the supplement,

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Speaker 4: the magnesium. I like to change one variable to time,

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Speaker 4: So pick some weeks that things are pretty steady at work,

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Speaker 4: and for this two weeks you're going to take magnesium,

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Speaker 4: and for these two weeks you're not. And see what

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Speaker 4: happens with your sleep.

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Speaker 3: Tracker, Daniel. Are these supplements safe to take?

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Speaker 6: The supplement industry is wild. It's the wild wild West.

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Speaker 6: So anything you pull off the shelf, don't think that

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Speaker 6: what it says on the bottle is actually what is

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Speaker 6: on the bottle. And I've been preaching this for over

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Speaker 6: fifteen years now. In the sports world, we have NSF

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Speaker 6: Certified for Sport or Informed Choice or Informed Sport certified,

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Speaker 6: so they're a third party company and they make sure

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Speaker 6: that what it says on the label is actually in

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Speaker 6: the bottle, and then they test it against all of

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Speaker 6: the two hundred band substances on the World Anti Doping

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Speaker 6: Agency list. I only recommend those supplements to my athletes,

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Speaker 6: and the FDA doesn't have enough manpower and they don't

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Speaker 6: have them enough money to regulate this industry. So you

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Speaker 6: have to be the sleuth or find the professionals that

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Speaker 6: will do that for you.

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Speaker 4: Not to get too far off. There's a great study

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Speaker 4: that just came out that supplemented another study from twenty

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Speaker 4: seventeen in Canada. So basically, if you're taking melaton, you

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Speaker 4: have no idea what's in it. They took thirty commercial

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Speaker 4: brands and actually looked at them, and the variance was comical.

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Speaker 4: In fact, one had no melatonin. It just had CBD

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Speaker 4: in it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think we have to ask what's the story

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Speaker 1: with CBD? Okay, it is everywhere, literally everywhere I look.

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Speaker 1: Is there any research on this? What is CBD all about?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So I did a deep dive on this, you know,

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Speaker 4: right before I went to Major League Baseball training camp

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Speaker 4: to have that ready for every baseball player that asked

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Speaker 4: about it. You know, CBD, cambinoids, THCHCCBN. You know. My

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Speaker 4: takeaway is this, we can't really say a lot about

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Speaker 4: it right now because it's just known in relationship to sleep.

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Speaker 4: I actually feel like in certain chronic pain sort of situations,

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Speaker 4: even something like generalized anxiety, I think there's some promise there,

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Speaker 4: and I think that when we are in any one

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Speaker 4: of those subjects, I feel like I'm a little bit

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Speaker 4: out of my expertise realm. If I'm talking about general

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Speaker 4: as anxiety as where I'm a sleep specialist tenurologist, I

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Speaker 4: think we can say pretty definitively at this point there's

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Speaker 4: not any real great data support chronic use of any

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Speaker 4: of these products as something that would relate to better sleep. Now,

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Speaker 4: where you get into the weeds a little bit is,

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Speaker 4: as we've talked about before on the show, great sleep

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Speaker 4: kind of relies on mindfulness. I think for individuals who

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Speaker 4: have struggled for a very long time with their sleep,

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Speaker 4: there's an inevitable anxiety about sleep, and so it's hard

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Speaker 4: sometimes to separate out. If you can control anxiety, specifically

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Speaker 4: anxiety around the process of sleeping, you'll often and either

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Speaker 4: facilitate maybe a marginally better sleep, but almost always a

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Speaker 4: better perception of the sleep.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, falling asleep is so much different, I guess than

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Speaker 1: staying asleep, because I have tons of friends that can

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Speaker 1: fall asleep right away, but they can't get connective sleep.

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Speaker 1: You know, if they wake up the middle of the night,

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Speaker 1: their mind starts racing, it's over and then they're up

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Speaker 1: from you know, two am to seven am, versus my

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Speaker 1: friends who lay there for one hundred hours can't turn

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Speaker 1: it off. Are there supplements that are helpful for one

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Speaker 1: problem versus the other? Which supplements and if any would

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Speaker 1: be needed?

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Speaker 4: Again, this is not That's probably not a process or

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Speaker 4: a problem that I would look to, Oh, you have

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Speaker 4: trouble staying asleep with then you should take this supplement

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Speaker 4: versus that. I mean to me, that problem starts with

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Speaker 4: the conversation of how long has this been going on,

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Speaker 4: what is it that wakes you up? How many times

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Speaker 4: are you waking up? How do you feel the next day?

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Speaker 4: So in that sort of flow chart of working through

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Speaker 4: that problem, if supplement is in this flow chart, it

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Speaker 4: is very very near the bottom. It's not the initial

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Speaker 4: thing that I would try. So it's like we were

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Speaker 4: always taught as a neurologist about headaches. A new onset

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Speaker 4: headache or a change in headache character needs to be

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Speaker 4: evaluated immediately. I would kind of say the same thing

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Speaker 4: about sleep versus well, I'm not going to get any evaluation.

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Speaker 4: I'll just try to find a supplement that sedates me

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Speaker 4: through this issue. I mean a lot of times, you know,

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Speaker 4: going right to some sort of treatment like that obscures

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Speaker 4: the actual problem. And that's the reason why probably the

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Speaker 4: average personal sleep out and is taken three to five

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Speaker 4: years to get treatment because they're not going right to

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Speaker 4: the source. They're like, well, I started taking melatonin and

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Speaker 4: that seemed to work for a while, or I was

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Speaker 4: taking more sedating drug that I used in the past

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Speaker 4: for anxiety. Well what are you doing? So to me,

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Speaker 4: anybody who's in that position of struggling to fall asleep,

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Speaker 4: struggling and stay sleep o, you know, getting some professional

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Speaker 4: help for the problem first might actually eventually involve a supplement,

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Speaker 4: but that's not what I would jump straight to.

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Speaker 1: Also, because I was curious, like do I need this

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Speaker 1: because it's actually helping, or do I need this because

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Speaker 1: now I'm so stressed? So I do understand this cyclical problem.

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Speaker 3: What about the prescription drugs?

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Speaker 1: Though I've mom, this one's for you and every woman

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Speaker 1: who's ever gone through menopause. Honestly, yes, Like my mom

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Speaker 1: gets on a soapbox saying, if you are a woman

438
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: of a certain age and you have dealt with hot

439
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: flashes for fifteen years, you have tried every supplement and

440
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: done prescriptive drugs. Because I shouldn't be driving behind the

441
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: wheel of a car. That's how little sleep I've gotten

442
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: because I'm so hot and my hormones are so messed up.

443
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

444
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 4: Mom.

445
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: She really wanted you all to know that.

446
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 3: She did. She left us note this morning.

447
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's a massive it's a massive topic,

448
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 4: and you throw menopause in there. It's its own separate issue.

449
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: It's a very very meaningful and problematic thing to people.

450
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 4: And we give terrible advice to individuals who are struggling

451
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 4: with sleep with menopause, and the advice usually becomes some

452
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 4: sort of sleeping pill. And when you start can get

453
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 4: sleeping pills, they don't really change sleep that much. You're

454
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 4: gonna fall asleep, what five minutes faster sleep in additional

455
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 4: seven minutes Like that's the data. But more importantly is this,

456
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 4: There's never been a sleeping pill that shows improve performance.

457
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 4: So when patients come to see me, well, listen, Chris,

458
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 4: I don't want to take the ambient, but I've got

459
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 4: to perform at my best or terrible things happen. Well,

460
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 4: while you're looking for that study that shows that the

461
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 4: pill you're taking, whatever it is, makes you perform better,

462
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 4: I'll finding twenty studies to show it doesn't. So this

463
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 4: idea that we needed to perform our best.

464
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: No.

465
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 4: And this is a terrible sort of thought pervasive thing

466
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 4: that's in medicine in general about sleeping pills, because so

467
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 4: many clinicians have no real training in sleep. Even though

468
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 4: of the top seven complaints you will find in a clinic,

469
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 4: one is I can't sleep and two as I'm too

470
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: tired during the day. So again, that perception can be

471
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 4: really problematic if we don't ask some questions, if we

472
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 4: just assume, oh, well, she doesn't sleep, so let's give

473
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: her a pillar, a supplement that can be the beginning

474
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 4: of bad things. Sleep is a skill we're trying to

475
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 4: build that there's no shortcut to it.

476
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: And Danielle, how would you rate some of these supplements

477
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: or let's say, do you personally suggest meditation versus a prescription?

478
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 5: I start with have you done a breathing exercise? Have

479
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 5: you journaled?

480
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 6: I start with all the sleep hygiene. Again, I'm not

481
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 6: on Chris's level. I'm more of like a look at

482
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 6: me as like I try to screen for these things

483
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 6: and I know the basics. So you breathing technique or

484
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 6: a yoga or a meditation huge for me.

485
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 5: Calming things like althenine.

486
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 6: That's why teas are great, you know, doing a couple

487
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 6: of green teas in the morning, or you know, camo

488
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 6: meal at night because of this protein or amino acid

489
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 6: called althenine which helps us to get in two hour

490
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 6: rest and digest or parasympathetic nervous system.

491
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 5: So I'll kind of start there with something light.

492
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 6: Magnesium is always good, especially if you're deficient in magnesium.

493
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 5: It will really you'll really feel that relaxing.

494
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 6: And I think that's why after a couple of weeks

495
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 6: it kind of stops, because you might have your stores.

496
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 5: All all bound up with with that. I don't go

497
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 5: right to melatonin.

498
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 6: There are a lot of sleep products for us on

499
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 6: NSF and that Informed Sport certified, but everything has melatonin

500
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 6: in it, and I don't think everybody needs melatonin. And

501
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 6: a lot of times my clients that I see the

502
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 6: bet their wits end and they've been doing so much

503
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 6: and they are stressed out and the mind is going,

504
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 6: so they're looking at every they want a little bit

505
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 6: of the brain and the body relaxation, you know, to help.

506
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 6: They'll do the meditation and they'll do everything, and they

507
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 6: know that it's just for a short period of the

508
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 6: time until they can get going back again. It's not

509
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 6: something that they hang on and that they need to

510
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 6: do every night.

511
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 5: Right, right, everything that we just talked about.

512
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 6: It works just the same for us as it does

513
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 6: for my elite athletes. Also, it's what they're willing to

514
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 6: work on, right. Are they willing to meditate? Are they

515
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 6: willing to journal? Are they willing to get in some yoga?

516
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 6: Are they willing to just do exercise in general? So

517
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 6: just helping them create a behavior, picking one thing to

518
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 6: work on to start working towards that.

519
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 5: And of course it's also working with people.

520
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 6: That want to look at the root cause or want

521
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 6: to find what the problem is and then want to

522
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 6: make those gradual steps to get to a place where

523
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 6: they don't need these crutches.

524
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: What do you see down the pipe?

525
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: What's in the supplement future, Chris?

526
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: What are you seeing? What does the future of supplements

527
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: look like?

528
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 4: That's a great question in terms of I always think

529
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 4: that you can answer any question about what does the

530
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: future of X look like by evaluating the past. And

531
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 4: so you know, in the time that I've been in

532
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: this space since the early nineties, is there a supplement

533
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: that has come along that has changed everything, like for

534
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: the positive. Now that's different from you know, MELTONA came

535
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 4: along and everybody's on it. Is it truly meaningfully changing

536
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: things for the positive or is it just sort of

537
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 4: a distraction until the next thing comes along? You know?

538
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 4: I think that magnesium could certainly be in there for

539
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 4: some people. I think that generally, when you eat well

540
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 4: and you eat a relatively normal diet, you get what

541
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 4: you need. Science has a way of surprising people. But

542
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: as of right now, I think it'll just be sort

543
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 4: of or more.

544
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: What it is right Is the supplement future just looking boisterous.

545
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 6: I think supplements there just there's always going to be something.

546
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 6: The CBD is really huge, but still in its infancy.

547
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 6: I thought years ago I got a handle on there's

548
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 6: always something new coming out. We do talk about these

549
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 6: supplements that are out there, the ones that are a

550
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 6: combo products of magnesium and alpenine and another compound GABBA,

551
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 6: which is a brain transmitter.

552
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: Is that a pill?

553
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: Uh?

554
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, you could take it as a pill, And that's

555
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 6: controversial because it's this big molecule that whether we take

556
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 6: it through supplements or you can't really get it in food,

557
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 6: it's what the body makes inside by a bunch of

558
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 6: different vitamins and amino acids and whatnot.

559
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: Wait, what brain transmitter? Okay, Chris, can you break this

560
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: down for us?

561
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 4: Gabba compounds. That's a tricky one. Gabba is an intermediate

562
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 4: in the synthesis of things like serotonin and melotonin. Problem is,

563
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 4: it's also not entirely clear if the preparation that you're

564
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 4: consuming is able to cross the blood brain barrier. These

565
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: are real chemicals and they're important in that sort of

566
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 4: biochemical cascade. The real issue is are you consuming enough

567
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 4: to make a difference? And number two, is it really

568
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 4: even bioavailable getting absorbed into your bloodstream making it to

569
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: your brain to make any kind of difference. Those are

570
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 4: the questions more for a chemist, I think I.

571
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 6: Would say keep coming back to are you doing it

572
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 6: safely and smartly and using something that you know is

573
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 6: real and not just a bunch of you know, rice

574
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 6: powder and pixie.

575
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 3: Dust, snake oil.

576
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 5: Snake oil.

577
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: Yes, love this, look at them. We could live like

578
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: an athlete tonight, Honey, Danielle and Chris. This is massive.

579
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, every single person I know is struggling with

580
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: anxiety around sleep, getting sleep the quality of sleep. What

581
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: should they be taking. Is it supplemental? Is it natural?

582
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: It's a lot. So thank you for being on Chasing

583
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: Sleep and for spending time with us and getting into

584
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: it same.

585
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 4: It's a lot of fun, my pleasure.

586
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Huge takeaway from today's episode four legs holding up the

587
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: table that is you. One of those legs is nutrition,

588
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: one is fitness, one is mindfulness, and one is sleep.

589
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the holy grail, is it not?

590
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: It is really important to take a step back and

591
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: really think about what we're saying here. We're saying supplements

592
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: are supplemental things.

593
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: Right.

594
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: The words that Danielle used were like crutch band aid.

595
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 4: Right.

596
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: We need to think about what is the root problem

597
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: and if the root problem is not a super easy

598
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: thing to take care of, then yeah, there are supplements

599
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: that can help while we're trying to figure out the

600
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: root problem.

601
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: So for example, when we're traveling.

602
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: That's a great time to supplement our needs. And sleep

603
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: is a skill.

604
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: That we can actually work on.

605
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: We have to develop it like any other skill.

606
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: It takes work, it takes time, that's right. We hope

607
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: that this podcast has become a supplement to your other

608
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 2: podcast listening.

609
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: See what I did there?

610
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: Gain eight Adam, sometimes your jokes could be classified sleep supplements.

611
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: Whatever I can do to help people sleep better.

612
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: We hope you'll go into your podcast player, rate and

613
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: review the show and tell us what you think you know.

614
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: You can always find me on the instagrams at ktq.

615
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: Low's and you can find me at Shabby Shafts, and

616
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: don't forget to follow or subscribe to make sure that

617
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: you get our next episode.

618
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: When we commune with nature.

619
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: Yes, or like we live in Los Angeles and maybe

620
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: we should be playing ocean sounds when we're sleeping instead

621
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: of hearing city sounds or birds chirping. I think nature

622
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: has a huge effect on quality of s.

623
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: I'd like it.

624
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: Next time it's sleep and Nature on Chasing Sleep. Until

625
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: next time, hope you are living your best while sleeping

626
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: your best.

627
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia

628
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Soshia.

629
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: This show was written and produced by sal Matt Brands,

630
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: Dave be Sing, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.

631
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro,

632
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: that's us.

633
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm,