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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Donald Trump has received yet another

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Speaker 1: target letter.

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Speaker 2: From the DOJ. We have a star studded show today.

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Speaker 1: The shock Doctor and author Naomi Kwine tells us about

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Speaker 1: how to counter RFK Junior's misinformation. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: Evil Genius' author Kurt Anderson about his new TV show

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Speaker 1: with Fame director Steven Soderberg commands Z.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the.

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Speaker 1: Host of Showtimes the Circus, John Heilman.

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Speaker 2: John Heilman, welcome right.

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Speaker 3: Back, Hi, good, wanting to be back right.

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Speaker 2: From Los Angeles, the City of Angels.

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Speaker 1: You're joining us to talk about Donald Trump has gotten

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Speaker 1: a target letter, another one.

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Speaker 2: When I saw it at for I thought it was

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Speaker 2: from last month.

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Speaker 1: Why because he got to target letter last month too.

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Speaker 1: I mean how most people only get one of those

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, look, what is constantly toggling in the

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Speaker 4: age of Trump between wanting to express and apprehend the

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Speaker 4: scale of what's going on and the unprecedented nature of it.

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Speaker 4: And so when somebody says to me, you know, Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump just got another target letter. And I think everyone

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Speaker 4: who's close to this investigation assumes that Donald Trump doesn't

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Speaker 4: get a target letter unless he's going to get indicted

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Speaker 4: in that investigation. That's kind of the prevailing assumption. So

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Speaker 4: is that a big deal? Obviously? Is it historic? Obviously? Yes,

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Speaker 4: these are big things, And I'm not the thing I'm

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Speaker 4: about to say, isn't it downplay them? It's only just

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Speaker 4: to say that, like, it's just the reality that you

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Speaker 4: molly me. Everybody who talks to anybody involved in this

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Speaker 4: has expected this for some number of weeks, not necessarily

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Speaker 4: some number of months. But I think that at some

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Speaker 4: point in the last prior to the first target letter

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Speaker 4: from Jack Smith and then the indictment in the document's case,

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Speaker 4: at some point prior to that, a couple months prior

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Speaker 4: to that, maybe it started to dawn on people that

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Speaker 4: the special prosecutor is really fucking serious and he's going

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Speaker 4: for Trump. Nobody knew who Jacksmith was when he got appointed.

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Speaker 4: There was some chances that, like, you know, Merrick Garland's

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Speaker 4: kicking the can down the road, Jack Smith's not going

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Speaker 4: to do anything. We've had mixed experiences in this country

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Speaker 4: with special counsels and special prosecutors and independent councils prior

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Speaker 4: to that, but it suddenly became clear, and the closer

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Speaker 4: you were to the investigation, the sources closer to the

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Speaker 4: investigation of people who knew Jack Smith kept saying all along, no,

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Speaker 4: this dude is a stone cold killer. If Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: has broken the law, which it appears that he has,

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Speaker 4: and in both of these cases, he's going to go

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Speaker 4: for it. So on one level, today's news is historic

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Speaker 4: and significant. It's also on some level shocking. A former

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Speaker 4: president of United States, now indicted in a separate not

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Speaker 4: about to be indicted, has a target letter in a

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Speaker 4: separate federal inquiry into his mis deeds. Shocking, but like

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Speaker 4: not surprising, Like I didn't wake up and when I

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Speaker 4: saw this this morning and go, oh my god. You

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Speaker 4: know Donald Trump's He's going after Jack Smith's going after

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Speaker 4: in the one sixth case, Oh my god. Who thought

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Speaker 4: that was coming. You know, most of us have thought

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Speaker 4: this is what is the next shoot to drop? And

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Speaker 4: now it's dropped. I think all the questions now are

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Speaker 4: not is he going to get indicted? The only questions

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Speaker 4: in both these cases are we don't know what the

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Speaker 4: strength of the one six cases yet because it hasn't

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Speaker 4: been laid out in an indictment. But at some point

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Speaker 4: we will know how strong that case is, and then

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Speaker 4: the questions will be when is he tried? And can

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Speaker 4: he get the Republican nomination and potentially win the White

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Speaker 4: House before those trials take place. That's like the to me,

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Speaker 4: that's the whole ballgame.

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Speaker 2: Right, can he run out the glock which he's going

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Speaker 2: to try.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I mean it's always trying to do, and it's

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Speaker 4: always trying to do. I mean, his whole game. It's

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Speaker 4: very simple and all the other discussions. To me, he

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Speaker 4: is almost certainly going to be the Republican nominee. And

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Speaker 4: you know, one on one against Joe Biden. Anybody who

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Speaker 4: says Donald Trump can't win is out of their mind. Like,

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Speaker 4: is Joe Biden the favorite? He is? Is Donald Trump?

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Speaker 4: Is it impossible for Donald Trump to win? We saw

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Speaker 4: how close twenty twenty was. It was, you know, under

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Speaker 4: one hundred thousand votes in three states. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: not like a big deal. So it's like, you know,

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Speaker 4: he could win. And if Trump can delay these two

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Speaker 4: cases and he wins, it's a fucking you know, apocalyptic

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Speaker 4: cataclysmic end of the Earth, existential horror show.

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Speaker 3: I don't know the answer.

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Speaker 4: I don't think anybody reasonably can tell you with any

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Speaker 4: confidence whether or not he will be successful in running

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Speaker 4: out the clock or not. I just I mean, people

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Speaker 4: speculated about it all day long. What will the judges say?

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Speaker 4: How long will it take? Everything in court takes longer

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Speaker 4: than you think it's going to take. Everything takes longer

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Speaker 4: than you think it should take, even if the judge

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Speaker 4: isn't in the tank for Trump, and we know at

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Speaker 4: least one of these judges is widely seen as being

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Speaker 4: the one in the class by documents cases widely seen

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Speaker 4: as being pro Trump. We'll see what happens in this case.

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Speaker 4: If it gets filed in the one six case and

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Speaker 4: gets filed in DC, that'll be a different venue and

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Speaker 4: we'll see what we get as a judge there. But

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Speaker 4: you know, that's to me, the ballgame right now is

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Speaker 4: like what's the timing of these things? And then largely

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Speaker 4: obviously questions about the jury is going to be and

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Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, But the timing is really everything.

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Speaker 1: And it is interesting because I want to like shift

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Speaker 1: back to the Republican primary. Fuckeray, we can say fuckery

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Speaker 1: because we're not on television.

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Speaker 4: I say fuckery on television all the time, and just

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Speaker 4: not on MSNBC.

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Speaker 2: That you much cooler than I am, Molly.

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Speaker 3: I'm just telling you.

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Speaker 4: The thing about premium, about premium cable and streaming is

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Speaker 4: that the main reason to be on it is not

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Speaker 4: about coolness but about the ability to use profanity at will.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I respect the hell out of profanity use. I have

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Speaker 1: to say, as someone whose mother has trotted the path

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Speaker 1: of using profanity as much as possible, I.

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Speaker 2: Just want to keep along with it.

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Speaker 1: But this Republican primary contest, I'm curious. You're quite young,

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Speaker 1: but you've covered campaigns for a long time. You've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of Republican primary contests get going, and you've

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Speaker 1: seen people get excited about a fresh faced, brown haired

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Speaker 1: Do you know.

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Speaker 3: Scott Walker, governor of a major governor of a swing state, that.

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Speaker 5: Kind of thing?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Pete Wilson not a governor of a

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Speaker 4: sting state.

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Speaker 3: Jeb Bush, governor of a swing state. I've seen a

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Speaker 3: lot of Republicans.

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Speaker 4: People get excited about a lot of absolutely obvious front

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Speaker 4: running Republicans who are going to clearly be the nominee

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Speaker 4: who then turned out to be.

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Speaker 3: A big fat goose egg.

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Speaker 4: Yeah so yeah, Rob Destanta is not an unfamiliar story

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Speaker 4: in Republican primaries.

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Speaker 2: Do donors just say, like, this is our guy.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that he can't say nice to meet

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Speaker 1: you back when he meets people.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think first of all, i'd say a couple

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Speaker 4: things just you know. Soyeah, I've been doing this for

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Speaker 4: thirty years, and the truth is that all of that

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Speaker 4: experience is in some sense helpful. Like I can tell

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Speaker 4: you this when you read stories about the disarray inside

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Speaker 4: the Dysantis campaign, right, and then you hear people push

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Speaker 4: back on those stories. Here's a fundamental iron law of

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Speaker 4: all campaigns, Republican Democrat. When you read stories about campaign disarray,

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Speaker 4: it's three times worse inside the campaign. However bad the

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Speaker 4: press is making it sound, it's three times worse inside

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Speaker 4: the campaign. It's never like stories about campaign disarray are

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Speaker 4: coming out and in fact everything's fine. It's never like

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Speaker 4: that because when things are really fine, no one's going

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Speaker 4: to the press and complaining about things. And when things

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Speaker 4: are fucked is when people start to leak, because they

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Speaker 4: start to go shit, this ship is headed for an

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Speaker 4: iceberg or has already hit the iceberg, and I don't

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Speaker 4: want to fucking go down with that ship. So I'm

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Speaker 4: going to start to talk about how fuck the ship is.

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Speaker 4: It's always worse inside, and so their hair is completely

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Speaker 4: on fire, and the idea that like, they're that's all fine,

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Speaker 4: We'll make a mid course correction, everything will be cool.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of time that is not what's being

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Speaker 4: said in Ronda Santas's campaign right now. It's people are like, well,

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Speaker 4: we're not really firing that person, We're moving them over

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Speaker 4: the superPAC.

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Speaker 3: Fucking bullshit. That person.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we might keep them on the payroll so that

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Speaker 4: we can claim that we didn't fire them, but that

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Speaker 4: person has basically just been fired.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, So there's one. That's one thing.

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Speaker 4: The second thing is none of my experience is meaningful

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Speaker 4: in the sense that like, I've never we've never covered

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Speaker 4: anything like cover two Republican nomination contests in the age

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Speaker 4: of Trump, but not one in the age of post

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Speaker 4: insurrection Trump right, and the full cultishness of the Republican Party,

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Speaker 4: the full personality cultureusness, and the full swing to what

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Speaker 4: you know, people like Walter Russell Meade politely called like

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Speaker 4: Jacksonian populist cultural populism and nationalist populism in the party.

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Speaker 4: We've never seen the party be what it is like

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Speaker 4: this now, And I think it's really important in the

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Speaker 4: sense that like there are donors who are looking for

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Speaker 4: alternatives to Trump, there are elites who are looking for

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Speaker 4: alternatives Trump, media moguls looking for alternatives to Trump, a

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Speaker 4: small faction of never Trump Republicans looking for alternatives with Trump.

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Speaker 4: What there isn't is a critical massive Republican voters looking

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Speaker 4: for an alternative Donald Trump. You know how long will

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Speaker 4: this owner donors stick with DeSantis? You know they're already obviously,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know the way, with the way camping

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Speaker 4: finance rules, a lot of these people are we the

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Speaker 4: maxed out donors are already maxed out. The unmaxed out

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Speaker 4: donors are looking at this thing and going, this is

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Speaker 4: a cycle, a poop cruise that's on fire, like one

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Speaker 4: of those carnival cruises where it terms of the toilets

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Speaker 4: don't work.

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Speaker 3: It's a flaming pop cruise. So no one's gonna write

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Speaker 3: to that.

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Speaker 4: So the donor the numbers start unless he does something

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Speaker 4: dramatic soon, because donors are not that smart and they

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Speaker 4: look up and they see what's on TV and they

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Speaker 4: go okay. So if he does something dramatic to change

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Speaker 4: the narrative, I mean dramatic something I think he's incapable

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Speaker 4: of doing, maybe some other people will write checks to him.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of the people who really believed in

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Speaker 4: RNDO Santas as a Trump alternative have already written all

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Speaker 4: their checks. They're done, they're out. And this is not

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Speaker 4: the guy who's going to have a low dollar donor base.

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Speaker 4: Like it's not like there's like a giant populist ups

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Speaker 4: ground swell for him. They are all with Trump. They

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Speaker 4: believe in Trump. And so the problem in this nomination

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Speaker 4: fight is this race is I have never been less

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Speaker 4: interested in doing all the stuff that I love to do.

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Speaker 4: Like I love Iowa, and I love New Hampshire, and

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Speaker 4: I love South Carolina and I love retail politics. I've

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Speaker 4: spent years doing it, and I find I'm perverse, I'm weird,

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Speaker 4: I'm kinky, I like that shit, and I look at

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Speaker 4: this in this run and I'm like, this is just

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Speaker 4: all a giant kabooki fest. This is ridiculous. All of

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Speaker 4: the things these people are doing. Like here's Mike Pants

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Speaker 4: at the make pens that the pancake breakfast, and here's

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Speaker 4: Nicky Haley grill at a pork chop. It's like, like

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Speaker 4: none of these people have a hope. Trump owns the party.

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Speaker 4: He just owns it and everybody who wants to see

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Speaker 4: an alternative there. It's not like there's no one, but

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Speaker 4: the party doesn't want. The vast bulk of the nominating

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Speaker 4: electorate does not want an alternative, And so how you're

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Speaker 4: going to create that desire. I'm not saying it's impossible,

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Speaker 4: but sitting here today, none of these people have a

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Speaker 4: strategy for how you have a plan that seems plausible

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Speaker 4: to me of how you're going to break his hold

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Speaker 4: over the large plurality, if not the majority, over the

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Speaker 4: Republican nominating electorate. It's like no one has presented a

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Speaker 4: plan or a strategy that looks to me like plausible.

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Speaker 1: Do you even wonder if Desanta's was sort of overplayed

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Speaker 1: from the get go?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I made a comment a second ago about I

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Speaker 4: said something about Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Pete Wilson, Pete Wilson,

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Speaker 4: I've seen candidate like I'm from California. When Pete Wilson

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Speaker 4: ran for president nineteenninety six, they're a lot of people

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Speaker 4: like Governor of California, far right. He's the immigration stuff,

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Speaker 4: the public service stuff. He's going to carry the party.

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Speaker 4: I was like, Pete Wilson does not have the talent

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Speaker 4: to hit major league pitching. Rick Perry, you know, Texas

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Speaker 4: big blah blah blah, Like you know, there was a

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Speaker 4: moment when people thought Rick Perry. I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 4: see it. He'll have a donor base, There'll be people

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Speaker 4: who'll be get behind him. But this guy, when he

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Speaker 4: gets out there is just not He just doesn't have

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Speaker 4: what it takes. I didn't necessarily say that was the

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Speaker 4: case of Jeb Bush, and I still don't really necessarily

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Speaker 4: believe Jeb Bush didn't have what it takes, but he

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Speaker 4: got crushed by Donald Trump. He didn't know how to

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Speaker 4: handle Trump. But I'm not sure Jeb Bush couldn't have

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Speaker 4: been presidential. There are these other people, and I just

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Speaker 4: always looked at the Santas and said, he looks like

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Speaker 4: a paper tiger to me. And I'm on the record

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Speaker 4: saying that from the very beginning, I thought, on paper,

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Speaker 4: I understand why the donor class who's desperate for an

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Speaker 4: alternative to Trump, and in his general election candidate he

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Speaker 4: might be able to beat Joe Biden. But as an

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Speaker 4: alternative to Donald Trump in the flesh on a debate

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Speaker 4: stage in an ice cream shop in Iowa, this is

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Speaker 4: not only not a Hall of Famer or an All Star.

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Speaker 4: This is a guy who's like, you know, in terms

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Speaker 4: of performance skills, candidate skills, He's like a double a

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Speaker 4: triple A player, not a Major league player.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was amazing that they thought they no

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Speaker 1: one is going to notice the cowboy.

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Speaker 3: Boots, well, all of it, all of it.

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Speaker 4: And this the absolute in the absolute incapacity to relate

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Speaker 4: in a normal human way. Now with with with voters.

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Speaker 4: You know, people overdo how important retail politics is at

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Speaker 4: the presidential level. It's obviously much more about national media

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Speaker 4: and more about about the big moments on debate stages

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Speaker 4: and about advertising and other things. But in the end,

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Speaker 4: those those guys have to go. And I'll tell you

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Speaker 4: one set of voters. They have to be able to

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Speaker 4: be really good in a room with donors like you

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Speaker 4: might not be great in an ice cream shop and

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Speaker 4: you might really kind of hate having to go to

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Speaker 4: the to the pizza ran in a Tumwa, But like,

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Speaker 4: if you can't get in a room and work a

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Speaker 4: donor crowd, this is the great genius of Barack Obama.

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Speaker 4: Like when he first came on, the first thing you

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Speaker 4: saw was this guy can be on we can be

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Speaker 4: on with Oprah, he can be on Monday Night Football,

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Speaker 4: he can be in a at the pizza rengein to Tumwa,

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Speaker 4: and he can work a room of Wall Street CEOs

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Speaker 4: and they all think this is one of us. That's

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Speaker 4: a candidate who's like has somewhere not necessarily guaranteed victory,

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Speaker 4: but that's like that's you're talking about someone who can

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Speaker 4: hit major pitching. And like you look at at Disantas

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Speaker 4: and donors started meeting him and going, he's weird. No,

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Speaker 4: he doesn't talk like a normal person in this group

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Speaker 4: where we're trying to like just sit around a little

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Speaker 4: roundtable in private and a restaurant in a private room.

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Speaker 4: He's like weirdo, that's what they said. And you're like,

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Speaker 4: if he can't relate to those guys, And then you

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Speaker 4: see him in these pictures when he's trying to do

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Speaker 4: the pizza meta ranch. You're like, I'm sorry, this is

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Speaker 4: let's just shut this thing down now. He won't for

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Speaker 4: a while, but that's where it's going.

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Speaker 1: I remember the scion of a big New York real

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Speaker 1: estate family. The Republican came home and he was like,

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Speaker 1: that's no money for me. Like, you're having that kind

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Speaker 1: of visceral reaction to your guy, forget.

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Speaker 3: It the guy you're looking for.

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Speaker 4: Like the people walked into those rooms with Dissana's thinking,

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Speaker 4: I really want an alternative to trump this guy. On

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Speaker 4: the basis of his record in Florida. Some of the

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Speaker 4: things I don't really love. I don't really love all

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Speaker 4: this kind of you know, the punching down on the

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Speaker 4: trans kids, whatever. But I like the economic record. I

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Speaker 4: like the fact that his re election was incredibly impressive,

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Speaker 4: you know, and expanded his margin and his strength with

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Speaker 4: keik stituencies, including Hispanics. Like people wanted him to be

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Speaker 4: what they wanted to like him. They walked in the room,

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Speaker 4: not skeptical, but like this could be the guy. And

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Speaker 4: then they walked out of the room going, eh huh,

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Speaker 4: let's go talk to Tim Scott. Let's see what that's about.

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Speaker 1: And now they've gone to Tim Scott just so much

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Speaker 1: the reporting is about how the donor class has turned

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Speaker 1: to Tim Scott. It seems impossible to me that you

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Speaker 1: go from a racist to someone who is actually black

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Speaker 1: as your nominee.

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Speaker 2: But am I wrong?

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Speaker 4: I mean, if your only objective is how do we

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Speaker 4: stop Donald Trump? If that's your if that's what, if

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Speaker 4: that's the category you're in, As I said, not what

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Speaker 4: the party believes, but what some of the donor class believe.

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Speaker 4: You don't really give a shit. Here's like, how can

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Speaker 4: I be Trump? I've tried that guy. That's not going

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Speaker 4: to work. I got to move on to the next

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Speaker 4: best thing. And I think, I mean, Tim Scott gives

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Speaker 4: Trump some problems that like Ron de Santis does. And

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Speaker 4: I saw Stuart Stevens on TV yesterday saying, how does

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Speaker 4: a guy who got elected governor by running an ad

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Speaker 4: where he's talking to his little kids about how the

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Speaker 4: little kids about building a wall? How you know, how

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Speaker 4: does that guy to become Trump's the antidote to Trump.

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Speaker 4: It's just such a fundamental problem, right, Like he's Trump's creation.

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Speaker 4: And people in the Jacksonian populist, nationalist Republican Party do

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Speaker 4: actually have they really value loyalty. Loyalty is a big

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Speaker 4: thing in that in that Caudrid so the idea of

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Speaker 4: like someone, hey, you know, Trump's was not being an

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Speaker 4: idiot when he said over and over again I made

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Speaker 4: Rond de Santis because he did to some extent, and

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Speaker 4: he knew that his voters would be like, this is

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Speaker 4: guy's an ingrade. You know, they don't want to see

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Speaker 4: that kind of betrayal of Donald Trump. They want to

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Speaker 4: see someone who and John Ellis of the Bush family

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Speaker 4: and of the great News items substack letter Giles is like,

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Speaker 4: you got to figure out a way to praise, to

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Speaker 4: do the eulogy before you try to bury him. If

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Speaker 4: you if you don't, people want to hear in the

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Speaker 4: Republican nominating electorate. They want to hear about how Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump made America great again. We thank him, We're grateful,

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Speaker 4: he's a great man. And now I want to stick

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Speaker 4: a ship in h Micheve and the and push him

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Speaker 4: in the shallow grave. But like, you can't just try

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Speaker 4: to kill him, and you can't kill him withology because

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Speaker 4: it's not really about ideology. It doesn't have one. It's

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Speaker 4: not about policy, it doesn't have one. It's not like

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Speaker 4: I'm going to run to the right of him or

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be more deregulatory than him. That's just

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Speaker 4: not what the Republican Party's about anymore. And so Tim

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Speaker 4: Scott gives him problems, potentially gives him problems in the

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Speaker 4: way that Rod DeSantis doesn't. He doesn't have a lot

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Speaker 4: of that complicated relationship with Trump. But I still, you know,

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Speaker 4: look at him and say, Tim Scott donald Trump one

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Speaker 4: on one debate, if.

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Speaker 5: It ever got to that, like, can you imagine.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I mean, Donald Trump's a freaking

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Speaker 4: one man wheat thresher, you know, I just I just

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Speaker 4: didn't imagine. I can't imagine Tim Scott, you know, coming

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Speaker 4: out of that, not in like fifty seven pieces. But

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Speaker 4: you know, who knows, we'll see. I mean, I continue

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Speaker 4: to think it's very hard for me to see how

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Speaker 4: many beats Trump.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I don't want to watch. It'll stress me out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like watching Trump destroy the sky.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he's not necessarily what I believe,

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Speaker 1: but you know, he seems decent enough and someone. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of sad when Trump destroys someone.

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Speaker 1: The few decent Republicans laughed.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, I think, you know, again, many

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Speaker 4: people will have a lot of you know people, If

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Speaker 4: you say anything nice at this point about anybody in

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Speaker 4: the Republican Party, people yell at you. But I mean,

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Speaker 4: comparatively speaking, Santas and Tim Scott, Tim Scott is a

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Speaker 4: far less objectionable branded vodka than Ronda Santasy is. I

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Speaker 4: think it's on the level of him. You don't see

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Speaker 4: Tim Scott doing some of the most egregious stuff that

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Speaker 4: that's really offensive that Desantas has done. So Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: you know, there's a little bit of a Bambi kind

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Speaker 4: of a quality to like, you know, if Trump gets

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Speaker 4: out there and has to like, well, I guess I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna have to rip Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, you know

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Speaker 4: in the little tiny pieces you're kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I mean, like, I don't really, I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 4: a big fan of deer, but I don't like watching

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Speaker 4: Bambi get like ripped into five thousand pieces. That's not fun.

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Speaker 4: The deer crush the plants and stuff. I don't want

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Speaker 4: them in my yard. But like I don't I also

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Speaker 4: want to see them like put a put it in

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Speaker 4: a wood schipper.

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Speaker 3: You know it's not fun.

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Speaker 1: And I think the top line today is don't put

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Speaker 1: Bambi in the wood chipper.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, John. I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're the greatest.

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Speaker 4: I'm sometimes a useless piece of shit and I sometimes

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Speaker 4: don't go to the schedule, but none of it has

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Speaker 4: anything to do with me not ever wanting to be

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Speaker 4: on your shy.

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Speaker 1: Naomi Kline is the author of The Shock Doctrine And

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Speaker 1: This Changes Everything, as well as a columnist for The

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Speaker 1: Guardian and a professor of Climate Justice at the University

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Speaker 1: of British Columbia.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Naomi Kline.

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Speaker 6: Thank you. It's great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have you.

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Speaker 1: Such a fan of yours for any number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: So let us talk about I feel like he's like

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Speaker 1: a blight.

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Speaker 2: Let us talk about RFK Junior.

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Speaker 6: Let us let us let us Oh, he's been making

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Speaker 6: news lately. So I spoke you have.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like we have to, right, do we?

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Speaker 1: I mean I think we do? So just give me

434
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 1: the top lines here, I mean, what are we even doing?

435
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 6: I think there was a tendency at the start to

436
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 6: just ignore him and hope he would go away. And

437
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 6: I think it's under because he is a you know,

438
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 6: serial misinformer. He spreads medical misinformation I think has has

439
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 6: caused great damage, and during COVID it made a lot

440
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 6: of sense to just sort of tune people like that out.

441
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 6: But Kennedy has been very clear in some of his

442
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 6: interviews that the entire reason he's running is because he was,

443
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 6: in his view, you know, silence censored. He said, it

444
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 6: has felt like talking into I believe he said a

445
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 6: fucking tin can. As a lawyer, he knows that when

446
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 6: you you know, when you're when you're part of an

447
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 6: official electoral process, there's a kind of duty to cover

448
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 6: and that he would get more of a platform. So

449
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 6: whether he's serious about, you know, his electoral prospects, or

450
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 6: whether he's just doing this to get a platform, he

451
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 6: is getting a platform. And so the question is now,

452
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 6: what do we do with the fact that he is

453
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 6: spreading quite dangerous misinformation on a much larger scale. And

454
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 6: I argue that we have to engage with the misinformation,

455
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 6: and we actually have to debunk it and don't just

456
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 6: assume that people understand that what he's saying, for instance,

457
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 6: about the link between vaccines and autism is a lie,

458
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 6: or the link between COVID and now he's claiming it's

459
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 6: a bioweapon that specifically leaves out Jews, and you know

460
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,719
Speaker 6: when he had Chinese. Yes, right, I mean it's not

461
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 6: like you can just sort of sneer, right. I actually

462
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,679
Speaker 6: think these arguments have to be very effectively debunked. And

463
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 6: I think there's been a little too x sneering and

464
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 6: sort of assuming that people get it, and I'm not

465
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 6: sure they do.

466
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we are in this strange time of like peak disinformation, right,

467
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's not true. I mean, I

468
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 1: guess there have been times when there's been disinformation like this,

469
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,640
Speaker 1: but it does seem unusual how much of I mean,

470
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: I think it's the death of local news. I think,

471
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's a number of factors have contributed to that.

472
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: But is there a way to sort of fight back

473
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 1: against that? And how right? So, I mean, I think

474
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories are not new. They always spread in chaotic times, right,

475
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: because they offer these neat stories that claim to explain

476
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: the world. They are also always tools for elites, particularly

477
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: anti Semitic conspiracy theories have been used by going back

478
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: to the first failed Russian Revolution in nineteen oh five,

479
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 1: when you had this broad based working class coalition taking

480
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: on Thezar and the landed elite, with the Jewish bound

481
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: really at the center of this coalition but part of

482
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: a multi ethnic working class coalition, and the response of

483
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 1: the Czar what's twofold one to offer some their minor

484
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: concessions and on the other hand to start spreading the

485
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: protocols of the elders and zion and saying that this

486
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: is you know, a plot by these stateless, rootless Jews

487
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: to attack a Christian nationalist values.

488
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 5: Right.

489
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 6: So conspiracy theories, particularly antisemitic conspiracy theories, are just why

490
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 6: we have to take it seriously that our kids now

491
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 6: openly you know, flirting with them. This is why Bannon

492
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 6: likes them, This is why Tucker Carlson likes them. Nothing

493
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 6: blasts apart a coalition from below, like saying blame that

494
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 6: guy over there, like not us, right, Or instead of

495
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 6: having a structural critique of a system that is desiring

496
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 6: to enrich and ewit and impoverish the masses, you say,

497
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 6: oh no, there's a cabal of just like a small

498
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 6: group of Jewish bankers who are plotting, like you, turn

499
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 6: it into an aberrant part of the system as opposed

500
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 6: to the system itself. You know, that's also what Hitler

501
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 6: did when he when he when he talked about a

502
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 6: form of Jewish capital, is that that was taking over

503
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 6: the kind of wholestim capital. You know, this is the context.

504
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 6: But I think what's different, Molly about this moment, and

505
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 6: it is a big difference. I thought a lot about

506
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 6: this is that conspiracies are an industry in themselves now, right,

507
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 6: because you have figures like Kennedy who are playing the

508
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 6: personal branding game and the person and they've learned how

509
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 6: to monetize their own identities. And so when they spread

510
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 6: and when they spread a conspiracy that goes viral on

511
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 6: these platforms that you know, just want whatever kind of

512
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 6: engagement they can get, and this is a good way

513
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 6: to get it. They're going to personally profit from it, right,

514
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 6: They're going to get members on their sites, they're going

515
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 6: to get donations, they're going to get book sales, they're

516
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 6: going to get all of that. And so I do

517
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 6: think that that is what makes this moment different, is

518
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,959
Speaker 6: the way that conspiracies are like directly monetizable on these platforms,

519
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 6: and so you've got way more players.

520
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does seem like running for president

521
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: and engaging in conspiracy theories both to have a kind

522
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: of profit connection that they didn't necessarily have before, like

523
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: you know, and so I mean it almost feels like

524
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: and again I'm not being anti capitalist here, That's not

525
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, but I am saying that does seem

526
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: like capitalism has bled into these two parts of political life.

527
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think you know what you were saying

528
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 6: about local media and just sort of a vacuum of

529
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 6: trusted information, right, even of a kind of any kind

530
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 6: of shared narrative that we might all be watching the

531
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 6: same TV show or all. You know, we've all heard

532
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 6: these arguments. But I do think that you can't really

533
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 6: separate these forces around the ability to monetize conspiracies, the

534
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 6: fact that people have these kind of niche information bubbles,

535
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 6: which is where they're getting all of their information. Maybe

536
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 6: it's you know, maybe it's Jordan Peterson, maybe it's Steve

537
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 6: Benn and maybe it's Joe Rogan. You know, some mix

538
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 6: and match of all the above, and they've all found

539
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 6: each other and are all amplifying each other.

540
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 5: There are much of.

541
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 6: It around the RFK care. He's really kind of weaving

542
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 6: together this network or coagulating it, or you know, whatever

543
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 6: metaphor you know you want to use. It does bring

544
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 6: us back to whether we believe, you know, whether whether

545
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 6: you're a fan of capitalism or not. You know, if

546
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 6: you're a reasonable person, you probably believe that there are

547
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 6: some things that are a little bit too important to

548
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 6: leave to the market. Maybe it's healthcare, maybe it's you know, schooling,

549
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 6: and there are there are all kinds of things we've

550
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 6: carved out of the market, and the US carves less

551
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 6: of it out than most industrial economies. But you know something,

552
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 6: if something is important enough, we can say, actually we're

553
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 6: not going to let just the profit mode of govern here,

554
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 6: and maybe information and media should be part of that

555
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 6: so that we don't end up with this kind of

556
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 6: free for all, which is I think a big part

557
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 6: of the reason why somebody like the garf Cave has

558
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 6: been able to find the audience that he's been able

559
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 6: to find. You know, that said, and I think this

560
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 6: is intimately corrected. I don't think you could understand the

561
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 6: success of his campaign so far and I think somebody

562
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 6: is pulling at around twenty percent. You know, at a

563
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 6: lot of pulls, you have to admit that there's something

564
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 6: going on that that isn't just kind of Facebook's fault

565
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 6: that they are tapping into something real. They're saying things

566
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 6: that a lot of people feel need to be said. Right.

567
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 6: And so the piece I wrote for The Guardian, you know,

568
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 6: I called him a counterfeit copy of a copy of

569
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 6: a copy that it's tapping into a real need.

570
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 5: Right.

571
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 6: And so when he talks, and this is really the

572
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 6: centerpiece of his messaging, this merger of the multinational corporations

573
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 6: and government kind of ganging up agatest to you, whether

574
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 6: it's big farm or big tax, sells a little bit

575
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 6: like Bernie Sanders, and frankly, he sounds a little bit

576
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 6: like me. He sounds a lot like the left. But

577
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 6: he is not offering any kind of left solution. This

578
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 6: is why it's a bait and switch. If you listen

579
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 6: to what he's talking about, he's like, no, I'm a

580
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 6: hardcore free market here. I want to lead climate change

581
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 6: to the market. He's not coming out in favor of

582
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 6: universal public health care. He's not talking about raising the

583
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 6: minimum wage, you know, so he sort of sounds a

584
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 6: little bit like Bernie, but he is most definitely not Bernie.

585
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 6: He won't even talk about a wealth past. You know,

586
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 6: he's pandering to his Republican base and maybe who knows,

587
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 6: positioning himself. So he denies it for a Trump Kennedy ticket,

588
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 6: which I think is obviously very very unlikely to happen,

589
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 6: but nothing can be ruled out in this day.

590
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: I just want to, like, for a minute, talk about

591
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: Kennedy as a I as a beneficiary of nepotism. Myself,

592
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: coming from a famous mother and a famous grandfather, I've

593
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: had a lot of advantages.

594
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: Because of nepotism.

595
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: So I always want to talk a little bit about

596
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: how people are born on third base and think they've

597
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: hit a home run. The Kennedys have had very much,

598
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, a similar kind of probably much more than

599
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: a kind of advantage like that. I wonder how much

600
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: that shapes Rfk's belief that he is not I mean, like,

601
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: if anyone should have impostors syndrome, it's RFK junior.

602
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: But he's seems to be lacking it.

603
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 6: I mean, look, I think it's a really good thing

604
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 6: to bring up and I think that there's no doubt

605
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 6: that it's more than just a family. It's more than

606
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 6: just being born on third base and privilege though. It's

607
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 6: all of that, and it's nit, right, it's the power

608
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 6: of story and NIT. And he's really playing into this

609
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 6: kind of destiny narrative, right, like he's going to avenge

610
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 6: the death of his father and uncle and finally get

611
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 6: at the truth. He's tapping into the energy around the

612
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 6: unanswered questions, real unanswered questions and conspiracy theories swirling around

613
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 6: the Kennedy assassinations and the fact that it's central to

614
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 6: the Q and on world.

615
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 5: Right.

616
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 6: So he's not fully you know, he's not fully thrown

617
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 6: in with Q andon, but he's dancing with them. He's

618
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 6: dancing with them, right, because he knows how powerful the

619
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 6: Kennedy name has become in the Q world. And for

620
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 6: those of you who haven't followed this, I mean, it's

621
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 6: so extreme, right, And they believe that Bobby Kenny Junior

622
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 6: is still alive, did not die in the car crash

623
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 6: in the nineties, And you know, I had a rally

624
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 6: in Dallas waiting for his return, unveiling an announcement that

625
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 6: he was Trump's running me. So this is sort of

626
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 6: the energy that is swirling around the Kennedy name slash brand.

627
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 6: And I realized how like dangerous this all was when

628
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 6: I was working on this book that I've been that

629
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 6: I've been working for the past few years about my

630
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 6: own doppelganger conspiracy theorists. You know, it just sort of

631
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 6: just using Naomi Wolf as a jumping off point. But

632
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 6: I started listening to Steve Bannon's podcast because she was

633
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 6: on it all the time. And then I just started

634
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 6: listening to Steve Bannon's podcast because I was realizing the

635
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 6: story like I was. I was realizing that we were

636
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 6: at most people I knew were not keeping up with

637
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 6: the stories that were really gaining resonance on the MAGA.

638
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: Right should I be listening to Steve Benn I mean,

639
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: I guess this is not an endorsement.

640
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 6: I think it's worth listening now and then to keep

641
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 6: up with the stories. He's listening to us. He is

642
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 6: keeping track of who is being silent, what is being

643
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 6: left unsaid, and he has the skill of tapping into

644
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 6: the issues that the Democrats abandoned and the people the

645
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 6: Democrats abandoned and saying, come on over here, We're going

646
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 6: to solve your problems for you, and of course not

647
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 6: doing so, that's what that's what he advised Trump to do.

648
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 6: And Trump did, you know, to disastrous effect in twenty

649
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 6: sixteen with white working class union members who felt screwed

650
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 6: over by trade deals that the Democrats had supported, right,

651
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 6: and now he's doing that with or trying to do

652
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 6: that with white COVID moms, you know, anti backs, that

653
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 6: sort of convergence of the wellness far.

654
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: Out, so far right, you know, yeah.

655
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 6: So so simply to say that Steve Bennon had our

656
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 6: K on his podcast in December of twenty twenty one,

657
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 6: and he gave RFK an entire show just to spout

658
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 6: anti vax conspiracy theories, but he lavished praise on him

659
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 6: and the Kennedy name, and he really carved it out

660
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 6: as being different than the Democrat Like, you know, it

661
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 6: was really interesting to hear Steve Bennon he praise on

662
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 6: the Kennedys, which I'm sure it is not the league, right,

663
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 6: but it was like the beginning of this story. It

664
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 6: started in December twenty twenty one when Bennon realized that

665
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 6: there was there was a powerful brand there that he

666
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 6: could co opt into his project and use it against

667
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 6: the Democrats. So that is happening. And look, I think

668
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 6: there's no doubt that our kid Junior has this sense

669
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 6: of destiny, has the sense that this is his birthright.

670
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 6: But because he was a heroin addict for a long time,

671
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 6: it was sort of pre Trump assumed that that meant

672
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 6: you couldn't have a political career, and post Trump, basically

673
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 6: anything goes. So now he's in.

674
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: I think that's such an important point.

675
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to having you back to talk about

676
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: Double Ganger when it comes out in September.

677
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: Until then, everyone should pre order it.

678
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: Just delighted to get to talk to you, really appreciate

679
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: you and excited for our September book launch interview.

680
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Mollie. It's a real, real pleasure.

681
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Mollie, and I am wildly excited that for

682
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to right.

683
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: Now, is going to have merch for sale.

684
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: Over at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

685
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: You can now buy shirts.

686
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: Hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs.

687
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: We've heard your.

688
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: Cries to spread the word about our podcast and get

689
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: a tow bag with my adorable Leo the rescue puppy

690
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: on it. And now you can grab this merch guys

691
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: only at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. Thanks for your support.

692
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson is the author of Evil Geniuses and the

693
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: co creator of command Z. Welcome back to Fast Politics

694
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: fan favorite, my actual friend Kurt Anderson.

695
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 5: Hello, Molly John Fast.

696
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: Delighted to have you. So let's talk about your show.

697
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 5: I've got a show. A little show can tell us more.

698
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 5: He once talked on this program, or maybe his predecessor program,

699
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 5: about this book I wrote called Evil Geniuses, which was

700
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 5: this history of the last fifty years and how the

701
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 5: right wing hi jack our political economy and fucked everything up.

702
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: True.

703
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 5: One of the people who read and liked that book

704
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 5: very much was my acquaintance Steven Soderberg, the filmmaker the Best.

705
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 5: Started talking to me at the time, and so, what

706
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 5: can we do? How can we make something out of this?

707
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 5: How can I make something out of this that would

708
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 5: sort of distill some of its messages and appeal to

709
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 5: young people and get to people who don't care about

710
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 5: politics and maybe nudge them towards civic engagement to try

711
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 5: to fix things before they're unfixable, and so on and

712
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 5: so on, and anyway, very long story, very short. Over

713
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 5: the next two and a half years came to be

714
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 5: this kookie episode show called command Z, which is this

715
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 5: scripted satire involving time travel and brain implants and horrible

716
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 5: Wall Street power brokers and right wing politicians and religious

717
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 5: fanatics and all of those things that are part of

718
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 5: what makes life in America not so great right now

719
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 5: and how those people and things can be nudged. And

720
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 5: it's kind of a fatal right, I mean, it's not realistic,

721
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 5: and I think it's funny and that's what it's about,

722
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 5: and that's what it is. And Stephen directed all light episodes,

723
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 5: and it has movie stars like Michael Sarah and they

724
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 5: have Schreiber and Roy Wood Junior from The Daily Show

725
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 5: and a couple of dozen other great actors and it's

726
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 5: just an amazing bit of fun that I'm very proud of.

727
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 5: And it's out now and it's available only appropriately in

728
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: this time of strikes for a pro union show, as

729
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 5: it is on Steven Soderbrukh's own website, which is called

730
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 5: Extension seven sixty five. And in this park place where

731
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 5: it's available called commandz series dot com and all the

732
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 5: proceeds go to charity. So you know, it's fun, it

733
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 5: goes to charity. It's all good.

734
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: Explain a little bit how you got from evil geniuses

735
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: to brain implants.

736
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 5: Well, at one point early on, actually Stephen said, Maple,

737
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 5: we could do some He didn't use the phrase arty documentary,

738
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 5: but he used I don't know if you know the

739
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 5: work of Adam Curtis. He's a brilliant British documentarian. You

740
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 5: know he's thinking of all kinds of things because he

741
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 5: thinks in all kinds of ways. He's a brilliant, radiant

742
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 5: thinking man. Anyway, So we talked through lots of things

743
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 5: and what it could be and what it should be,

744
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,959
Speaker 5: and what we wanted to do, and really focused on, okay,

745
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 5: how do we on this idea that I said before,

746
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 5: How do you get people, especially people who aren't like

747
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 5: you and me, for instance, politically obsessed, to watch a

748
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 5: thing and have it maybe nudge them toward an understanding

749
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 5: of how history works or doesn't work, and how things

750
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 5: take a long time to fix and all those things.

751
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 5: So we thought, okay, some kind of scripted things in

752
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 5: the future when things are even worse. Was a good idea.

753
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: And then I've always been a fan of Time Trouble,

754
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 5: and turned out he's interested in Time and Trouble as

755
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 5: a as a fictional device. Brand implants are how our characters.

756
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 5: I don't want to give too much away, right, there's

757
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 5: a way that many, many millions of Americas got brand implants,

758
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 5: which just coincidentally, of course, is one of Elon Musk's

759
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: current businesses is to give people brain implants that can

760
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: communicate with computers. And in twenty fifty three, this guy

761
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 5: who was organizing this whole thing in our movie, Commandzie,

762
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 5: played by Michael Sarah, has died on his way to

763
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 5: Mars again could be a reference to some future Elon

764
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 5: Musk's event has found this way to communicate with people

765
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 5: back in twenty twenty three, and that's what that's what

766
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 5: our team is doing to try to make people in

767
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three do better than the evil than they

768
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 5: are doing.

769
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: You and I both I think of us as like

770
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties magazine people.

771
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: That's my origin story.

772
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: And I wonder if when you look at what's happening

773
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: right now with sort of what's happening with TV and

774
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: movies and cable. Do you think that that is a

775
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: sort of similar phenomenon, this kind of business being totally

776
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: changed by the internet.

777
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 5: It is, obviously being has been totally changed very different

778
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 5: way in that for the last decade because of streaming,

779
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 5: suddenly the same industry, that is to say, the show

780
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: business motion picture television industry, thought, oh my god, not

781
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 5: only is this not killing us as it did magazines

782
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 5: and newspapers and nearly did books, but it's a rebirth. Right.

783
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 5: We have this new way of making money and streaming

784
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 5: into people's homes. And by the way, we don't need

785
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 5: to share anything with movie theaters, and by the way,

786
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 5: and it's why. Of course, part of the reason writers

787
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 5: and actors, including me I'm a remember the writer's guilt,

788
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 5: are on strike right now is to say, oh, look,

789
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 5: and if we get all this money from subscriptions, we

790
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 5: don't have to give any of that to the actors

791
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 5: and writers, all right, that whole half, this new half

792
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 5: of our business model, we don't have to share it. Great,

793
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 5: So it changed it until they overbuilt and overspent and

794
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 5: over everything, as happens in business. It was a totally

795
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 5: good thing for them, rather than in the case of

796
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 5: magazines print like kind of a for anybody who was

797
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 5: paying attention, you know in the late nineties, certainly in

798
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 5: the odds, was like, uh oh, this is bad for us.

799
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 5: Nobody ever had it right, I mean there was no

800
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 5: serious like boom booh good the Internet. It's going to

801
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 5: really help newspapers and magazines. I mean, you know, not

802
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 5: for more than five minutes.

803
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: Right, but it's quite interesting this sort of like, I mean,

804
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: do you think it's possible that with the magazine is

805
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: what happened was that sort of a lot of magazines died.

806
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: Some places were able to capitalize on it, but ultimately

807
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: a lot of content ended up not being gated, going

808
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: for free.

809
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really been a constant crisis, right.

810
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 5: And that information wants to be free thing which was

811
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 5: said not in the way that was taken ultimately by

812
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 5: the Internet, which is like hey I shouldn't have to

813
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 5: pay for anything, was a problem. And in their excitement

814
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: to be part of the new economy as it was

815
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 5: called back then thirty years ago, all these newspaper magazine

816
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 5: it's like oh yeah, we'll just like here take it

817
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 5: and somehow advertise it will pay the day. Well, that

818
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 5: didn't work out too well. Speaking of magazines, which is

819
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 5: where your question began, because yeah, I too was a

820
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 5: magazine person.

821
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: Certainly you were more of a magazine person than I was.

822
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: I was just older anything.

823
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 5: You know, a magazine is this thing that can barely

824
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 5: exist anymore in the Internet. I mean, which is to say,

825
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 5: it's this fifty or one hundred or two hundred pages

826
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 5: selected by an editor under a mission and a sensibility,

827
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 5: and this is why we put these articles together this

828
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 5: week or this month into this thing here. Enjoy it.

829
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, Okay, the New Yorker may be kind

830
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 5: of sort of great as it is, or the Atlantic

831
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 5: kind of sort of great as it is. They still

832
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 5: do that, They still put on the magazines's New York Magazine,

833
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 5: many Fatty Fair, whatever. But the Internet has made magazines

834
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 5: unable to effectively exist in that way that they did

835
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 5: for the one hundred and two hundred years that they

836
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 5: existed and were what they were, right where it's this

837
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 5: package of things and you read it all together, and

838
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 5: it's and and the mixes of the articles in that

839
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: issue ideally are a thing that you enjoy. And you know,

840
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 5: everything now is an individual article. Your article of Vanity

841
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 5: Fair next month as great as I'm no doubt will

842
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 5: be will be read by your.

843
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: Readers, right right, right, right right.

844
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 5: And so yeah, sure it's part of Vanity Fair.

845
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: But you know, and yet so you think that this

846
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: is a movement from the platform to the person.

847
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 5: Well yes, and again it's funny right about what we're

848
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 5: doing with command Ze bye bye by Stephen who you

849
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 5: know made his great breakthrough with sexualized and videotape, which

850
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 5: was the ultimate beginning of the indie movement, effectively right

851
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 5: thirty four years ago, you know, and surprised everybody and

852
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 5: started turning over the ventional wisdom about how movies were

853
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 5: made and distributed. Well, you know, we have Hulu and

854
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 5: Amazon and and Netflix and these giant Peacock Disney, plus

855
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 5: these giant streamers, some of which were not even in

856
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 5: the entertainment business until a few years ago, now kind

857
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 5: of running it, controlling it until now they feel like, uh, oh,

858
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 5: we overdid it. And yet it's still just part of

859
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 5: this you know, giant corporate thing of media and entertainment.

860
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,479
Speaker 5: And so to try in this one little small way

861
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 5: to say no, you don't have to subscribe anything. You

862
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 5: just come to this Filmmaker's site. Pay seven ninety nine

863
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 5: and watch this show these eight episodes. Well cool, and

864
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 5: so we kind of lucked into walking the walk in

865
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 5: what this show is as well as talking to talk,

866
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 5: because it's about how, you know, there's too much corporate

867
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 5: dominance and everything is driven by you know, efficiency and

868
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 5: largerness and money and all the things that are familiar

869
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 5: to us about what's wrong with now and so here

870
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 5: in this small way of not being on Max or

871
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 5: Hulu or Netflix or any of the rest where so

872
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 5: it didn't have to be that way. There's all kinds

873
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 5: of ways to do this. And you know, if you

874
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 5: can figure out if you can make a thing that

875
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 5: people like and it's good and you like and put

876
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 5: it up there the internet, I mean it's kind of

877
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 5: a return to the original dream of the Internet in

878
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 5: a way that like just stuff could be out there

879
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 5: and you'd go fight it. Oh no, you didn't see

880
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 5: the Soderberg has a series. I can go pay eight

881
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 5: bucks and I don't have to buy a thousand shows

882
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 5: and movies I don't care about.

883
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: You know, it's sort of the dream of all creators, right.

884
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and my experience with this has been the

885
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 5: dream that I was never counting on, yes, to have

886
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 5: this person who is not easy. He's a very demanding,

887
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 5: rigorous person in every respect. But it wasn't just some

888
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 5: There was never some person, some suits, some whomever upstairs

889
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 5: over there who says, oh what about this? Why oh

890
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 5: do they have to be this? Oh can't you make

891
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 5: her a man? Or can't you make him? You know this?

892
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 5: There were none of those second guessings, and so yeah, no,

893
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 5: it was. It was a very pure, which is not

894
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 5: to say, easy thing to be able to do and

895
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 5: then just put it out like here, people take a look. Yeah,

896
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 5: it was great.

897
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 3: It is the dream.

898
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 5: And it's a reminder that we all think of technology

899
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 5: being bad. Yes it can be. It will be unless

900
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 5: we control it properly, have the right guard rails and

901
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 5: social systems. But here, look, this is what it was

902
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 5: supposed to be. It's this amazing thing. Right you can

903
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 5: you can put this thing out and on your phone

904
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 5: or on your iPad or on your TV or whatever.

905
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 5: You can can watch it. You don't have to go

906
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 5: to a theater. You don't have to do it. I mean,

907
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 5: it is, it is. It's a it's a taste of

908
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 5: what the utopians back in the nineties were dreaming of

909
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's when little we're making it real at

910
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 5: this time of concentration and monopoly. The technology can be

911
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 5: great if you use it, right.

912
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: Do you think that that could or still might happen

913
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: with magazine writers?

914
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 5: Maybe, I mean it does. I mean, you know, I

915
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 5: mean look at substack, right, there are plenty of writers

916
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 5: who are making a very good living doing that. You know,

917
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 5: you could undoubtedly.

918
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: Make a good living doing that, Malay Jones.

919
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 5: Pass so sure, I personally to me again, there are

920
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 5: ways to talk about magazines and print writing, pros writing. Obviously,

921
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 5: technology has upended all of these worlds. However, yeah, one

922
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 5: writer at a time, great earn a living writing articles.

923
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 5: Fine on substack or whatever other versions of that they'll be.

924
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 5: But I gotta say, the thing about shows and TV

925
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 5: shows and movies that are very different from that is

926
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 5: that they are collaborateive. They are in the doing of

927
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 5: it and the making of it. Like old fashioned magazines.

928
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 5: I mean, there is one commander, but of course, you know,

929
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 5: Tina Brown was a commander, Brayden Carter was a commander.

930
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 5: I mean, all great magazine editors are commanders in that

931
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 5: movie director way. So the writer alone on her or

932
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 5: his subseec is just a writer Laura her subsect, which

933
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 5: could beautiful and wonderful and fantastic, but it's not the

934
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 5: sheer team sport fun that magazines were and TV and

935
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 5: movies that their best are.

936
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: Kurt, we are in the dog days of summer, but

937
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: we are in impeachmentville politically.

938
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 2: I know what's keeping me up at night. But what

939
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: are you thinking about right now?

940
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 5: As we're recording, just literally, as the former president has

941
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 5: announced that the Social Prosecutor has sent him a target letter,

942
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 5: meaning his indictment is presumably imminent for being whatever he's

943
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 5: going to be charged with for the January sixth events

944
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 5: and surrounding crimes. So great is my reaction to that.

945
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 5: But also, of course, the immediate Kevin McCarthy's of the

946
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 5: world is people running against him for the nomination and

947
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 5: Republican leaders. Oh this is terrible. This is a weaponization

948
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 5: of the justice to warm and all that stuff he says,

949
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 5: they say all the time. What I'm thinking is, I

950
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 5: wonder if in all of history there's ever been such

951
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 5: an intense disconnect between the public. Oh this is terrible,

952
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 5: This is bad and the private Please God, let him

953
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 5: be taken out. Let this finally take him out, so

954
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 5: that we can go on and have our normal, awful

955
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 5: Republican party without Donald Trump. You know that, it's so

956
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 5: clear the hypocrisy and disingenuousness on that front. So I

957
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: just wish I had all of them bug both in

958
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 5: their private rooms and their hearts of hearts, to see

959
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 5: the intense hope and pleasure they're taking in this. I

960
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 5: think what could be the biggest and most damaging indictment

961
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 5: politically for swing voters, which is really, you know, all

962
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 5: you can really hope for if you're me or you

963
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 5: I think they're like, oh God, no, this is too much.

964
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 5: I really just can't hold my nose and vote for

965
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 5: this guy. Yeah, once he's denominated, but certainly, I mean,

966
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 5: the Rhonda Santus is the world. I just I find

967
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 5: it so amusing that they have to say this is terrible,

968
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 5: this is terrible. But his entire career at this moment

969
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 5: depends on Donald Trump being somehow removed from the race

970
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 5: during the next six months. You know, I mean, I

971
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 5: will die politically if he doesn't die politically. But I

972
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 5: have to say it's terrible. They're killing him politically.

973
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 2: Kurt Anderson, tell us how we can stream this show.

974
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 5: It's very easy to stream the show and it works

975
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 5: just fine. And you don't have to be a subscriber

976
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 5: to anything, and you don't have to just go to

977
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 5: Command Disease Series dot com and take it from there

978
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 5: and you say I want access, and they take a

979
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 5: credit card and you pay seventy ninety nine and you

980
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 5: can watch the whole ninety five minutes at your leisure

981
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 5: as many times as you wish, and you subscribe to nothing,

982
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 5: and that's what it is. You'll laugh, you may think

983
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 5: a little bit. It's nothing but enjoyable. In fact, your

984
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 5: former employer, Mollie the Daily Beast just ran a marvelous

985
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 5: review of this show. Just couldn't be more of a

986
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 5: rave yesterday. So there you.

987
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 2: Go, fabulous, Kurt. I hope you will come.

988
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 5: Back always and any time.

989
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 3: No mo Jesse Cannon, Marley Jong fasta MTG.

990
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 5: She's not really a student of history, it seems, because

991
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 5: she kind of doesn't know what she's ever talking about.

992
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such an incredible moment. Marjorie Taylor Green

993
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: recently said at the Turning Points conference LBJ is similar

994
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: to Biden. They are both Democratic socialists. Lbj's big socialist

995
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: programs to address education otherwise known as public school, a

996
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: medical care otherwise known as medicare, rural poverty. I mean,

997
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, medicaid, food stamps, and welfare. So she's reading

998
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: off those things. Little does she know that those are

999
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: all wildly popular, and for that she is our moment

1000
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: of fuck Ray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1001
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the

1002
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

1003
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1004
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1005
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: for listening.