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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the RNC now makes staffers answer

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Speaker 1: if the twenty twenty election was stolen.

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Speaker 2: They have to make sure you'll lie about that. We

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Speaker 2: have such an interesting show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Domestic policy advisor to President Biden you're Atandent stops by

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Speaker 1: to talk to us about the Republican war on reproductive

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Speaker 1: rights and health more generally. Then we'll talk to historian

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Speaker 1: Thomas Zimmer about his deep dive into the Heritage Foundation

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Speaker 1: and their plan for Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: It's actually fascinating and terrifying.

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Speaker 1: But first we have NBC National Affairs correspondent John Heilman.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. John, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Molly, you were like on Morning Joe And you know,

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Speaker 3: I like nothing. I like better when I'm in Los

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Speaker 3: Angeles and I wake up at three am to watch

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Speaker 3: the six am hour of Morning Joe Live, because I Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's the kind of psychopath I am.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the vibe shift in American politics.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there certainly is a lot of anxiety about

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Speaker 1: RFK Junior and Nicole Shanahan. But it's not clear that

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Speaker 1: he can get you know, he still has had trouble

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Speaker 1: getting on the ballots. He's almost completely funded by a

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Speaker 1: Republican I mean, it seems like there's a vibe, a

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Speaker 1: larger vibe shift in this world's longest general election.

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Speaker 2: Yes, no, I mean, what do you what do you

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Speaker 2: feel here?

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Speaker 3: Moly. One of the one of the advantages, one of

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Speaker 3: the few advantages to being in my age, my rapidly

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Speaker 3: encroaching decrepitude and senility, is that I've like kind of

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Speaker 3: I've done on some of these races before, and so

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Speaker 3: like the momentary vibe shift is like, not is not

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Speaker 3: really one of my it's one of my moral enemies.

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Speaker 3: People overstated the degree to which Joe Biden was dead

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Speaker 3: and toast and Donald Trump's gonna kill Joe Biden and

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Speaker 3: people now, especially in the liberal media, Well, we'll seize

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Speaker 3: on a couple of poles and claim and the combination

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Speaker 3: of a series of things. He did really well at

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Speaker 3: the State of the Union. There are a couple of

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Speaker 3: poles to show there's been a State of the Union bounce.

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Speaker 3: Trump is obviously having all the problems he's having, although

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Speaker 3: those are ongoing, and people will now say there's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a bibe shift and we all think that

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Speaker 3: Biden's bouncing back. My view, you may not ever want

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Speaker 3: to have you back on the podcast again because I'll

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Speaker 3: say the same, which is the race is going to

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Speaker 3: be really close, and it's going to be really close.

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Speaker 3: Vibe shifts don't take place within the margin of era,

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Speaker 3: but polling shifts do. It's always been a margin of

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Speaker 3: ARA race. It's still a margin of air race. It's

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Speaker 3: going to be a margin of era race until election day.

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Speaker 3: And there are six seven maybe five, sorry, tween five

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Speaker 3: and seven states that will determine the outcome. The numbers

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Speaker 3: of votes that will determine the outcome is tiny, so

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Speaker 3: small things that will happen much closer to election day.

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Speaker 3: You can't be determinative. And the thing about r FK

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Speaker 3: is that the third party problem is a real problem

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Speaker 3: for Biden, and some of these people are going to

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Speaker 3: get on tickets. It looks like that they may the

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Speaker 3: Biden people that may be fortunate in that no labels

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem like it's going to be able to put

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Speaker 3: a candidate on the ballot, which would have been bad

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Speaker 3: for them. The RFK thing is a bit of a conundrum.

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Speaker 3: The Trump people think that RFK is the only one

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Speaker 3: of the potential third party candidates who could hurt Trump

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Speaker 3: because of the fact that it's not just a Republican donor.

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Speaker 3: But you know, he connects to a lot of these

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Speaker 3: anti Backs people, and those are Trump people, So you know,

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Speaker 3: he's obviously going to take some votes away from both

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Speaker 3: of them because he's a Kennedy on one side and

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Speaker 3: he's also anti Backs on the other side. He's a

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Speaker 3: wild card. But I thought for a year and continue

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Speaker 3: to think that the race is a margin of arra

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Speaker 3: race that's going to be really, really close, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think anything's going to change my view about that.

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Speaker 3: When someone starts pulling consistently ahead or behind of the

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Speaker 3: other person outside the margin of error incredible polls. We

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Speaker 3: can have a conversation about bibe ships. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 3: not dissing the question. I'm just saying no, no. I

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Speaker 3: think I think that people who thought Biden was dead

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Speaker 3: overstated the case. And I think people who think that

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Speaker 3: somehow Biden is going to cruise to reelection are out

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Speaker 3: of their minds. I think the reality is it's going

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Speaker 3: to be really hard fought, and that he is perfectly

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Speaker 3: capable to winning the race. Joe Biden is and I

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Speaker 3: would even I continue to say that I make him

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Speaker 3: a slight favorite in winning the race, but I would

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Speaker 3: have said that three weeks ago or three months ago

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Speaker 3: just as much. And I do think the state of

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Speaker 3: the Union is really if you really think about vibe

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Speaker 3: shifts in terms of people, just the Democratic bed wedding

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Speaker 3: reducing in volume and volume reach, and maybe it's cooling

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Speaker 3: a bit. It's not quite as warm the bed wedding.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're like everything's chilled, they're chilling a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Is the state of the Union is the key element

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Speaker 3: of that. It's like to see Biden get over to

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Speaker 3: perform like that and then to see a little bit

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Speaker 3: of movement, and the numbers has reduced a very bunch

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Speaker 3: of very nervous nellies. They're a little bit nervous now.

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Speaker 3: So that's yes, there's a little bit of a vibe shift,

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Speaker 3: but again I think the underlying data suggests super close.

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Speaker 3: Biden probably the slight favorite, but Trump could win. And

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Speaker 3: I think that everybody's just fixed that of their brains

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Speaker 3: right now. That's really the underlying dynamics of the race

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Speaker 3: are like that and are going to be like that

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Speaker 3: probably until November.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's not a bad way to think

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Speaker 1: about any presidential campaign or race.

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Speaker 3: So when you look at a poll and the poll

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Speaker 3: has a margin of error in it, right, and you

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Speaker 3: see the margin of error says margin of era three points.

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Speaker 3: That means the margin of era applies to both people's numbers.

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Speaker 3: So if you want to know what the margin of

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Speaker 3: error is, you multiply it by two. It's really six.

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Speaker 3: What that means is like bo Biden could be up

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Speaker 3: forty two to thirty seven over Donald Trump, or fifty

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Speaker 3: two to forty seven in a three percent margin of

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Speaker 3: aar race, and that's still within the margin of era

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Speaker 3: because the three points applies to Biden could be up

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Speaker 3: three or down three from what the number is that

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Speaker 3: they have for him, and Trump could be up three

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Speaker 3: or down three. So in a three point margin of

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Speaker 3: era race, you know, you could be up by five

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Speaker 3: and you're still within the margin of era. You can

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Speaker 3: be down by five and you're still within the margin

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Speaker 3: of era. And people think that that like look at

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Speaker 3: that number and think, oh, it's if it's beyond the

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Speaker 3: three but the lead is bigger than three points. It's

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Speaker 3: outside the march of era. That's not true. It's got

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Speaker 3: to be out more than six. So like I it's

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Speaker 3: the margin of these poles. You haven't learned anything. It's really,

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's helpful to remember because you people make

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Speaker 3: the mistake on television all the time, the poles. It's

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Speaker 3: one of the things that should reinforce People's another thing

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Speaker 3: that a lot of people feel in their gut over

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Speaker 3: the leap of the last couple cycles. In particular, the

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Speaker 3: poles have been proven wrong in a variety of ways,

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Speaker 3: over in twenty sixteen, in twenty twenty, in a lot

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Speaker 3: of the midterm polling, it's like everybody should be looking

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Speaker 3: more at directions and trend lines of polls, and that

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Speaker 3: the precise number, Oh, Joe Biden's up by one. Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden is never up by one. Donald Trump is never

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Speaker 3: up by one. That's always within the margin of ear

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Speaker 3: It's meaningless if you start to see trend lines that

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Speaker 3: show consistently in high quality polls that one side is

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Speaker 3: that the gap is widening, when you're actually that's what

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Speaker 3: you should be paying attention to and I always just

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Speaker 3: say that only just reinforce the notion to go to

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Speaker 3: the top point. Hey, guys, gonna be a close race, and

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Speaker 3: there's going to be some ups and downs, and there's

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Speaker 3: going to be some moments when people think Biden is

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Speaker 3: just dead, and there's going to be some moments people

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Speaker 3: think Trump is just dead. And I think if all

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Speaker 3: things of you know, unless somebody gets hit by a

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Speaker 3: bus or there's a Martian invasion, the reality is that,

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Speaker 3: like this is going to be really close race until November.

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Speaker 1: It is a good point, though, that Biden has many

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Speaker 1: points in mid terms. I mean I wrote a piece

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Speaker 1: in the Washington Post that said he should drop out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he has been declared dead many many times,

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Speaker 1: Like that's sort of his favorite thing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, look, people, you know, famously Broughck Obama

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Speaker 3: told him he couldn't beat Donald Trump in twenty sixteen

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Speaker 3: and he to let Hillary Clinton take the reins and

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Speaker 3: that you know how that worked out. You know, people

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Speaker 3: said he couldn't win the Democratic nomination in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: because the party was too progressive and Bernie and Elizabeth

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Speaker 3: Warren now had driven the party to the left, and

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Speaker 3: he could never ever win the Democratic nomination, and then

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Speaker 3: you know, he got crushed an Aisle, We got crushed

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Speaker 3: in New Hampshire. He was definitely dead after those two things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when I wrote that story.

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Speaker 3: He goes on and sweeps the race, right. People said

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Speaker 3: he couldn't beat Trump from the basement, and then he

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Speaker 3: beats Trump and twenty twenty, you know, people said that

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Speaker 3: he couldn't get anything done. I had to bipartisan way

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Speaker 3: on Capitol Hill, and then he gets the efrastructure bill pass.

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Speaker 3: People said the Democrats are going to get crushed in

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty two midterms, and that didn't happen. If

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Speaker 3: you did a thought bubble over Biden's head whenever he

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Speaker 3: hears anyone say we should throw this to an open convention,

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Speaker 3: like if James Carvill, who I love and respect. But

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Speaker 3: when James Carvill or Ezra Kleiner, someone says, hey, open convention,

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Speaker 3: get Biden out of there. What Biden thinks is, you're

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Speaker 3: the same people who said I couldn't win the nomination,

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Speaker 3: couldn't beat Trump, couldn't succeed in Congress, couldn't have a

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Speaker 3: decent mid term in twenty twenty two. Fuck you, like

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Speaker 3: you all have been naysaying me for years, and I've

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Speaker 3: proven you wrong time and time again. Now on the

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Speaker 3: other side of that, that static analysis from Biden's point

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Speaker 3: of view, because he is older. Go back and watch

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Speaker 3: Biden's announcement speech in twenty twenty in May of twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: and compared to how he speaks now he's older. You know,

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Speaker 3: he's not as robust, he's not as full of energy,

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Speaker 3: he's not as clear, he's not as you know a

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Speaker 3: lot of things. So he has gotten older. He's not

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Speaker 3: as good at candidate as he was in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: That's not some huge shot at Biden. You know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of candidates in that age group at view four

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Speaker 3: years later are going to be worse. But it's not

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Speaker 3: a perfect rapust to the point that, you know, people

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Speaker 3: are worried about Biden's performance to say, hey, I won.

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Speaker 3: You guys were doubters before, and I proved you wrong.

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Speaker 3: What you have to do is you have to keep

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Speaker 3: proving it now. And that's why the State of the

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Speaker 3: Union was important, because that's not telling people you guys

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Speaker 3: doubted me before and you were wrong. That's showing people

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Speaker 3: that you can still have the energy, have the clarity,

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Speaker 3: have the force, have the fight in you that you

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Speaker 3: can take Donald trumpot if you can show them day

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Speaker 3: after day, that's the thing that we'll back off people

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Speaker 3: from their bed wedding. And again, I think that's why

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Speaker 3: that there's a moment here where people are feeling a

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Speaker 3: little less suicidal than they were two months ago. It's

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Speaker 3: because that combo of Trump is you know, the money

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Speaker 3: thing and all the stuff we know. We can tell

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Speaker 3: about Trump all day long, but the Biden a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a Biden, you know, the first time you've

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Speaker 3: seen upward movement and is pulling in a long time,

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Speaker 3: and then this very vivid performance is like white people

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Speaker 3: and I think people are you know, I mean, in

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Speaker 3: the end, I really care that much about democratic bed

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Speaker 3: wedders because I don't think that they really determined who

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Speaker 3: wins the race in the end. But it is the

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Speaker 3: case that a lot of people that you and I

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Speaker 3: run into in the green room at morning, Joe, are

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Speaker 3: a little calmer than they were a couple months ago.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I think of you

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Speaker 1: as doing is like you go to.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere, right go to Iowa.

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Speaker 1: You know, You're like a person who goes to like

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Speaker 1: the important political places. Well also Los Angeles, which is

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Speaker 1: not very important politically.

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Speaker 3: I usually hit about thirty states a year, so it's

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Speaker 3: like I, you know, one way or the other end.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes it's more, you know, it's a primary season.

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Speaker 3: I'll be in place like Iowa and South Carolina in

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Speaker 3: New Hampshire. But I travel a lot, and not just

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Speaker 3: back and forth from LA to New York. I end

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Speaker 3: up getting to a lot of places for various reasons,

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Speaker 3: and so I end up talking to a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who are I don't want to say, like I'm

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Speaker 3: out like David Broder knocking on doors and talking to

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Speaker 3: quote average voters. I'm not like sitting in Manhattan most

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Speaker 3: of the time or in DC.

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Speaker 2: I feel that so.

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Speaker 3: I get to at least, you know, whether it's small business.

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Speaker 3: I mean I give speeches and stuff, but you know,

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Speaker 3: so it's whether it's a you know, a pharmaceutical company

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Speaker 3: board or something in Arizona. People like, oh, you know

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Speaker 3: kind of oh, you're on the speaking circuit. But the

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Speaker 3: truth is, if you go and talk to the board

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Speaker 3: of a pharma company or a healthcare company or a

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Speaker 3: real estate management company in Florida, you know, you're meeting.

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Speaker 3: You know lots of people who are they're not the

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Speaker 3: coastal elites, and they're not in the Sella corridor class,

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Speaker 3: and they think about politics from the standpoint of what

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Speaker 3: my taxes look like, what are interest rates look like?

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Speaker 3: What are my employees telling me all the time? And

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Speaker 3: you get a little bit of a sense, a little

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Speaker 3: bit better sense of like what the mood of the

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Speaker 3: country is. When you go around, no matter how unscientific

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Speaker 3: it is, you kind of get some sense of a

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Speaker 3: kind of ambient sense of where people's heads are at.

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Speaker 3: And usually it kind of comports with the pulling and

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Speaker 3: I would and the broad sense, and I'd say that,

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Speaker 3: you know, to answer the question that I think you're

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Speaker 3: going to ask, you can't gauge like the week to

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Speaker 3: week movements of like anything. It's but you can get

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Speaker 3: a sense. And I just would say that, like my

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Speaker 3: overwhelming sense of for the last year has been liberal, moderate, conservative,

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Speaker 3: everyone has been. If I had to write a book

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Speaker 3: about this campaign, it would be is this really the

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Speaker 3: best we can do?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: That's what you hear from people, And I hear from

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Speaker 3: Democrats all the time, not I'm not this is not

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Speaker 3: an anti Biden thing. You know Democrats who say, I

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Speaker 3: know Joe Biden is better than Donald Trump. I'm going

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Speaker 3: to vote for Joe Biden. I know he's on democracy

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Speaker 3: side and Donald Trump is a fascist. And I know

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Speaker 3: that there's no I'm not no false equivalency here. As

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Speaker 3: a citizen, I look at these two octagenarians and say,

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Speaker 3: is this really the best America? Is this really the

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Speaker 3: two best people who could competing for the presidency? And again,

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Speaker 3: I hear that from liberals as much as I hear

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Speaker 3: it from moderates and conservatives. People are just a little

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Speaker 3: bit like, huh, okay, if this is the choice, I

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Speaker 3: know what I'm gonna do. But I'm not like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is I'm really psyched about this. I mean, on

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Speaker 3: either side. Frankly, it's the Trump people. You're that from

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Speaker 3: a lot of Republicans too, They're out psyche de Metrump.

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Speaker 1: I actually have Republican friends people always shocked by this,

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Speaker 1: who were like, you know, very in Trump world, who

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Speaker 1: are like hesitantly just going to go along with it

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Speaker 1: this time because you can't not right. But here's my

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Speaker 1: question for you, Like this was originally that's very bad.

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Speaker 1: Senate map for Democrats. I talked to, you know, someone

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Speaker 1: in Florida. I was talking about how they think they're

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Speaker 1: probably going to be able to get abortion on the ballot.

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Speaker 1: In Florida, they got a million signatures one hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: Republicans on that there's a theory of the case, or

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Speaker 1: at least there's some sort of green shoots of hope

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Speaker 1: that these bottom up candidates might move the ticket along.

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Speaker 2: I mean, am I wish casting.

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Speaker 3: A little bit a little bit, but I don't think

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Speaker 3: I mean, not necessarily a lot. I mean, here's one

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Speaker 3: way of thinking about what we've seen in American politics

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Speaker 3: post Dobbs in this Biden era in general, has been

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Speaker 3: you know, Democrats underperforming in polling and overperforming on election day.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that people who are serious

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Speaker 3: in the business point to and say is that you know,

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Speaker 3: and that's not a trivial thing. I mean, some you

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Speaker 3: know that there's something going on there, and what's going

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Speaker 3: on there has been that you know, these these issues.

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Speaker 3: And I sometimes get yelled at by women for saying,

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Speaker 3: you know that we didn't know how much of a

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Speaker 3: real voting issued abortion would be until Dobbs came along.

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Speaker 3: It was all a hypothetical.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: They were like, we knew women would do this or that,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, hey, guys, you know anything. What you

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Speaker 3: did was you believed, you thought things, you hoped for things,

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Speaker 3: but you didn't know, and none of us knew because

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Speaker 3: you'd never seen a fundamental individual liberty stripped away by

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Speaker 3: the court in the history of the country. So it's like,

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Speaker 3: we give this. The history of the country has been

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Speaker 3: a progressive expansion of rights taking one away. Anyone who

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Speaker 3: said they knew how salient and motivating an issue that

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Speaker 3: would be new is wrong because there was no precedent

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Speaker 3: for it. As it turns out, it's a really big deal,

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Speaker 3: at least on the basis of what we've seen so

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Speaker 3: far in terms of turned out. It's part of the

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Speaker 3: explanation of the not just beyond all the polls are

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Speaker 3: rolling all the time, there's also the theres the this

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Speaker 3: juncture between where Democrats have been in polling and where

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Speaker 3: they've been on election day has been that the power

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Speaker 3: of Dobbs, and I would say more broadly, the power

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Speaker 3: of the series of issues that Dobbs is at the

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Speaker 3: center of that have allowed Democrats to paint Republicans accurately,

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Speaker 3: I would say as out of touch extremists. That's one

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Speaker 3: of the issues. And now there's a p number of

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Speaker 3: issues that go into that picture of the Republican Party

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Speaker 3: headed by Donald Trump as being extreme and out of

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Speaker 3: touch with the center of America. But Dobbs is the

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Speaker 3: core of that. And Democrats have successfully done that and

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Speaker 3: they're going to try to do it again. And you're

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Speaker 3: pointing to an example in Florida where people have it's

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Speaker 3: not that they want to make abortion the only issue

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Speaker 3: on the ballot, but they understand that it's like the

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Speaker 3: lynchpin issue itself is very important, but it's also connected

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Speaker 3: to this other picture, which is this party is too

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Speaker 3: extreme on a p number on a variety of issues.

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Speaker 3: And so look, I think the Senate map, you'd be

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Speaker 3: insane or really heavily wishcasting to be like all is well,

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Speaker 3: you know, you'd be like that that dog and the

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Speaker 3: burning building meme. You know it's sycom. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: like it's it's not that the map is still the map.

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Speaker 3: It's still a really tough map, and that outside the

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Speaker 3: margin of normalcy, there's not a world where Democrats like

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Speaker 3: are picking up seats in the Senate. If the demer

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Speaker 3: Routs hold the Senate, it will be a very powerful thing.

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Speaker 3: The map is very bad and that there's very few

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Speaker 3: pick up opportunities. That's just the reality. But it may

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Speaker 3: be maybe not unreasonable to hope that the Democrats can

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Speaker 3: put together enough holds that they can maintain control of

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Speaker 3: the Senate and or maybe you know, end up at

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Speaker 3: fifty to fifty again and it Biden wins that again

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Speaker 3: get you control of the Senate. It's not the likeliest outcome,

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Speaker 3: but it's not an impossible outcome, and if it turns

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Speaker 3: out to be possible, it will be because of this

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Speaker 3: larger trend, which is that this issue set is motivating

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Speaker 3: people against Republicans and for Democrats in a way that's

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Speaker 3: really unprecedented, like I think I've never really quite seen before,

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Speaker 3: and all the time of Parro politics, it's just really

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Speaker 3: been amazing to watch the way that that abortion and

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Speaker 3: then the larger set of issues have motivated people in

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Speaker 3: a country that a lot of people have over many

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Speaker 3: years of thought is like basically issues don't really move people.

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Speaker 3: Turns this one really does, and that collection of them

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Speaker 3: and maybe that will work to Democrats paper.

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Speaker 2: Again, John, thank you so much. That was super important.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Near Tandon is a domestic policy advisor to President Biden.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Near. Great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have you.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's so much going on in this

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Speaker 1: White House, and like I was listening, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: like a big c Span person, so I actually get

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Speaker 1: to hear what the President says and right, because that's

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Speaker 1: the only place you get to hear it. And also

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Speaker 1: the first lady talking about this can that all this

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Speaker 1: amazing cancer stuff they're doing with these people who can

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Speaker 1: help you navigate the system, and just very very cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I'm hoping you could talk to us first about

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Speaker 1: what's happening in this admin when it comes to healthcare.

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Speaker 4: Great.

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Speaker 5: I can't think of anything I would like to do more.

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Speaker 5: I've been working in hardcare a long time. This is

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Speaker 5: my third administration, my third Democratic administration, of course, and

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Speaker 5: I've been working on hardcore in in each administration. I

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Speaker 5: started off on the administration obviously, work in the bombed

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Speaker 5: administration and on the Affordable Care Act. But I think

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Speaker 5: people lose sight of is how historic the action of

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Speaker 5: the President is taken are. Because we have the lowest

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Speaker 5: rate of uninsurance ever, we've been able to do things

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Speaker 5: that you know, advocate the best for, like you know

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Speaker 5: we're advocated for for decades, like given power for Medicare

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Speaker 5: to negotiate drug prices that actually get drug prices down,

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Speaker 5: and also do historic protections. We just put out a

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Speaker 5: new rule to eliminate junk insurance. These are the short

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Speaker 5: term plans where you think you have insurance and it's

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Speaker 5: when you need it, it's really no insurance there.

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Speaker 1: Like Liberty Health Systems, the company fun Seapack Right Liberty

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Speaker 1: Hell to Share exactly Yes, which turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a fraud. Shockingly, the company that funded Seapack a couple

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Speaker 1: times anyway gone Yes.

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Speaker 4: Shockingly.

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Speaker 5: When Trump was president, he created he did a rule

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Speaker 5: takes Spangen Endurance. I have no idea whether that's connected

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Speaker 5: to any particular funder at.

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Speaker 4: All, but that's the thing. The difference is pretty start.

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Speaker 5: So when it comes to expanding coverage, lowering costs, you know,

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Speaker 5: really trying to create protections for.

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Speaker 4: People and a healthcare for them.

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Speaker 5: The President has been laveser focused and you know, he

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Speaker 5: really understands what it means for people. He really thinks

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Speaker 5: through the anxiety people have in their healthcare. So of

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Speaker 5: lemme goes back to his own experience when he's been

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Speaker 5: taking care of a loved one and how anxiety producing

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Speaker 5: it can be. So you know, I mean, it really

434
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 5: is a nord star for him as he started this conversating.

435
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 5: And I think it is hard to break through on

436
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,119
Speaker 5: some of these issues them tips, because it isn't you

437
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,680
Speaker 5: know sometimes when you have they historic numbers of people

438
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 5: covered in the affortable correct twenty one million people, and

439
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 5: I was starting to semitstrate that was twelve million people.

440
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,159
Speaker 5: You know, it just didn't break through because it's not

441
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 5: a conflict or a fight. It's a good thing that's happening.

442
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 5: So I appreciate any opportunity to talk about it.

443
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 1: It must be like very gratifying though if you think

444
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 1: about I mean, for example, Obamacare is wildly popular and

445
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,439
Speaker 1: it wasn't always and I was thinking about, you know,

446
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: there was so much strong and dram about that policy,

447
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 1: the idea that you were going to be able to

448
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: get healthcare, and then Trump desperately wanted to get rid

449
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 1: of it and had to plan for a perfect healthcare

450
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: that everyone was going to love in two weeks, and

451
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 1: he will get rid of it if he can get

452
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 1: back into office.

453
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:48,399
Speaker 2: We know that to be true.

454
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:53,479
Speaker 1: But what's happened since Obamacare, since the Obama had been

455
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 1: is that it's become actually really a way of life

456
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 1: for a lot of Americans. I mean, is it gratifying

457
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,639
Speaker 1: to watch how popular it's become.

458
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 4: I thought the day would come.

459
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,680
Speaker 5: I mean, there were many years that there wasn't popular

460
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 5: and we had to defend it. And I remember when

461
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 5: Trump came into office and there were even some groups

462
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 5: who thought we should, you know, we might just have

463
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 5: to cave on allowing Obamacare to go.

464
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 4: And you know, I just thought that was crazy.

465
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 5: And I also think that the fight over Obamacare has

466
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 5: also made clear millions of people, you know, what's really

467
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 5: at stake. And the fact that forty five million people

468
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 5: now have coveraged because of Obamacare, twenty one million in

469
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 5: the exchanges, you know, close to twenty five million in

470
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 5: the medicaid program, it really means like millions.

471
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 4: And millions of people reliant on the healthcare coverage.

472
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 5: The fact that now we're forty states have done Medicaid expansion,

473
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 5: that it's become much less contention had strong support in

474
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 5: the public. I mean, I find that gratifying, but I

475
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 5: also think it's the basic fact that everything they said

476
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 5: about it, you know, is going to create death panels

477
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 5: or kill a private insurance was all crazy and wrong.

478
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 5: And it is an important service, and affordability has been

479
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 5: a key point. It is hugely popular on now it's growing.

480
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 5: We got five million people in the last year alone

481
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 5: signed up for exchange coverage, a three point four million

482
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 5: routina or one point seven million Black Americans, And so

483
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 5: you know, it's hugely popular, is having a particular impact

484
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 5: and prevading insurance picking music color. But I also think

485
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 5: I've lived through a lot of these fikes, and the

486
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 5: Republican Party had an ideological objection. Medicare and Medigaid and

487
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 5: Obama pair is front and center. And that's why, you know,

488
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 5: last week the republic Cretiqummittee put forward to plan and

489
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 5: it's like so radical, it's hard to believe.

490
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 4: It's a cover a four point five brillion.

491
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 5: Dollar cut to the ACA, HILD, the health insurance program,

492
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 5: Medicaid programs four point five trillion over ten years. It

493
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 5: invistiates all of these programs. They voucherize Medicare, and that's

494
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 5: eighty percent of the House Republican Congress married to Trump,

495
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 5: who's already tried to get rid of it, and like fot.

496
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 4: Tooth and nail.

497
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 5: And that's why I think we have to be really

498
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 5: conscious that. You know, if you think it's crazy that

499
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 5: they would try to rip away health in terms for

500
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 5: forty five million people, that's what they do. This is

501
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 5: an ideological fight. And so you know, that's why I

502
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 5: was really practice the President take them on Tuesday and

503
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 5: really lay out the contracts in North Carolina and just

504
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 5: drive be really clear about what's with stake, because what

505
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 5: they kind of rely on is their plans are so

506
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 5: crazy people don't take it seriously. And when we don't

507
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 5: take them seriously, that is when things get scary. So

508
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 5: that is why it's really important and over the next

509
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 5: several months for it's to really being very clear about

510
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 5: the difference.

511
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 4: Rooms.

512
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that Republican Study Committee because it's like

513
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: all the crazy stuff you would expect to find in

514
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: an oppo file.

515
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 2: They just put their names to it. You know, they're like, yeah,

516
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: we wanted got the federal.

517
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 4: That's the point.

518
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 5: It's not like they feel ashamed that's like what they would.

519
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 4: Like to do to America.

520
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, I think it's like good that they

521
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 5: put it out because people can received. It's all in

522
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 5: black and white, you know, basically transforming the Medicare program

523
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 5: into a boucher program where people like have to tay

524
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 5: more for coverage.

525
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's right there.

526
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: I mean, my favorite one is the Heritage Foundation being like,

527
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: why is an IVF better regulated? Like, you guys don't

528
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: want to regulate anything but IVY.

529
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: That's the one place.

530
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 5: You regulate anything other than women's body that is okay

531
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 5: to regulate.

532
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, IVY.

533
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: Suddenly IVF is the thing they're the most worried about it.

534
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: So that Medicaid expansion is a huge deal and we

535
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: don't cover it so much because in some states you

536
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: have red states with blue governors desperately trying to get

537
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: it past state legislators and attention does not serve. But

538
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: it's going. I mean, this is happening in a lot

539
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: of states. Does that mean more hospitals? Does that mean

540
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: more coverage? I mean, can you give us just a

541
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: little like explainer about what that looks like on the

542
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: ground in a red state where they've done the expansion.

543
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 5: Well, I'm not going to give you a red state

544
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 5: because it's very much a purple state. We were just

545
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 5: in North Carolina, which had a Republican legislature and has

546
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 5: a Republican legislature that had not done Medicaid expansion or

547
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 5: had not done Medicaid expansion for years in your years,

548
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 5: Geverrendor Cooper bought the long, hard fight to convince them

549
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 5: to do the Medicaid expansion. They passed it. It will

550
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 5: it's covering four hundred thousand people now in Medicaid and

551
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 5: will cover six hundred thousand. Just got implemented a few

552
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 5: months ago, but ultimately we'll cover six hundred thousand people.

553
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 4: And I'll just give you a great example of what

554
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 4: it means.

555
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 5: The President was introduced by a woman who was in

556
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,479
Speaker 5: the Medicaid It was in the gap of coverage, so

557
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 5: she didn't qualify for the date Medicaid program, but didn't

558
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 5: make enough for the Affordable Care Act exchanges. So that's

559
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 5: what was so crazy about this policy. If you were

560
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 5: slightly higher income, you to get into the exchanges because

561
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 5: those were federal. If a state hadn't done medicating stage

562
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 5: and people there were people had no coverage. There was

563
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 5: that group of people who had no coverage, which is

564
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 5: so insane because you.

565
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: Know, she told the story which is she's slightly.

566
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 5: Blind and she hurt her hand and she had to

567
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 5: go to the hospital. She had an accident and she

568
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 5: had to go to the hospital. She really needed emergency care.

569
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 5: She was really worried about it. She didn't didn't have

570
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 5: health insurance. It happened in December and she just got

571
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 5: covered by Medicaid, so she was able to go to

572
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 5: the hospital and not worry about coverage, and she may

573
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 5: not have gotten to the hospital.

574
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: So it's just that kind of basic anxiety that people have.

575
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 5: When they don't have health insurance that you know, if

576
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 5: they get sick bay Cake coverage. But also what's really

577
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 5: important about it is, you know, eventually why business groups

578
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 5: supported it in North Carolina is that it really funds

579
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 5: your rural hospitals. Rural hospitals disproportionately rely on Medicaid. In fact,

580
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 5: in states that have expanded Medicaid, they've had much fewer

581
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 5: rural hospital closing and states that haven't expanded Medicaid, you know,

582
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 5: like Exis, they had a lot more ural hospital clothing

583
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 5: and what that also means is that people just can't

584
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 5: get the coverage they need in their community, and it's

585
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 5: just such a counter productive, ridiculous posture.

586
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 4: So I'm so glad we're now at forty states.

587
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 5: But if you really think about we think about it,

588
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 5: just these governors who have not been the coverage and

589
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 5: have not done a Medicaid expansion are literally just do

590
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: things and not provide coverage to people out of fight.

591
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 5: I mean, the reimbursement rate is like ninety five percent,

592
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 5: close to one hundred percent at for a new state.

593
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: It's really crazy.

594
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 5: But you know, I also think we have now a

595
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 5: good date of example of states where you know they're

596
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 5: doing the right thing. Virginia several years ago, now North Carolina.

597
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 5: We're getting more and more coverage in more and.

598
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: More, yeah, which is amazing.

599
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: And again this was a problem rural hospitals were unable.

600
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this Louisiana report that released last week,

601
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: which had talked about just how there's healthcare deserts. There's

602
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: hospital deserts, and then there's also maternal fetal health deserts,

603
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: and then there's also because of Republicans overturning Roe V.

604
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: Wade and Trump's super trumpefied Supreme Court. You don't have

605
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: obgyns in some of these red states, or you have

606
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: been many fewer than you need. Is there any way

607
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: the federal government can help these women?

608
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 5: So far, there's some data that we've gotten that ten

609
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 5: percent of OB when in red states where you know,

610
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 5: ROW has been overturned and there's where there is no

611
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 5: right abortion orders of man we see. You know, that's

612
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 5: a pretty significant decline of access to OBS.

613
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 4: Like, the challenge on ROW is that it is really hard.

614
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,479
Speaker 5: To undo, you know, when we have a constitutional right

615
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 5: that's been there for thirty years and is undone. There

616
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 5: are a limited stepth that the federal government can take

617
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: in terms of just providing access to healthcare.

618
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 4: You know, we have actually increased investments into maternal health.

619
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 5: You know, we have a whole strategy around maternal mortality

620
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 5: which is really focused on trying to give support to hospitals,

621
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 5: lower resource hospitals, hospitals and horror communities and really focused

622
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 5: on trying to get them the resources for prenatal care.

623
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 4: But the challenge with OB's is that.

624
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 5: You know, we can't bring me people work in states

625
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 5: they don't want to and so.

626
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 4: Right, it is really hard. It's a really hard problem.

627
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 5: I mean, when you basically vilify doctors and you know,

628
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 5: potentially criminalized you know, basically, where you have an abortion band,

629
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 5: you are criminalizing doctors who would provide the care that

630
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 5: is the target. You know, obviously OB's are going to

631
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 5: feel unwultimary states. And the President has heard from a

632
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 5: number of doctors who just have left practic He's actually

633
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 5: heard from doctors who's left practice in states because they're

634
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 5: scared of because they look at women they want to

635
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 5: provide care to and can't because of these abortion bands.

636
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: So you know that's hard.

637
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what is.

638
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard so many stories from ob is

639
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: about what it's like and even like you know this

640
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: story they don't want to tell you. In Tennessee, I

641
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: heard a story of a woman or they didn't want

642
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: to tell her you having a miscarriage. My doctor friend

643
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: was saying, well, her numbers had gone down, down, down

644
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: till we knew that the pregnancy was not holding.

645
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: And they didn't want to.

646
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: Tell her the patient because they didn't want to do

647
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: a DNC. And I mean, that is no way to practice.

648
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 5: A Madison I mean the fact that people know about care,

649
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 5: doctors know of here a patient needs and tell them

650
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 5: they need to get thicker in order to get the

651
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 5: care because of the law in a state. It's just

652
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 5: a crazy but it also really speaks to the basication here,

653
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 5: which is these laws fundamentally believe women's dignity should take

654
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 5: a second like take you know, should take a sort

655
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 5: of a second seat. You know, fundamentally these laws are

656
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 5: really about controlling women.

657
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 4: And I think that's that's the fight we're in. It

658
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: is insane, but it's also you know, that's the fight

659
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 4: we're in.

660
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 5: And we need to elect more people who think differently

661
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 5: and will pass a national law to protect row.

662
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 4: That is, that is what is in front of us.

663
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 5: And you know it's not my place to talk about politics,

664
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 5: but in this selection, you know, I'm I mean, that's

665
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 5: the choice that we have. We can allow this to happen,

666
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 5: or we can in bite to change it.

667
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: Craziness near Tandeon, Thank you so much. I hope you'll

668
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: come back.

669
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 4: I would love to always great to be with you.

670
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: Thomas Zimmer is a historian at George Washington University and

671
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: author of The Substack Democracy Americana. Welcome to Fast Politics.

672
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: Thomas Zimmer, you're a historian at Georgetown. Not bad, but

673
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: you wrote about something that Jesse and I are obsessed with,

674
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: which is Project twenty twenty five.

675
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 5: Right.

676
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: I think we actually agree on this idea that this

677
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: is this sort of mainstreaming of anti democracy may actually

678
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: be its most dangerous facet. So give our readers first

679
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: what Project twenty twenty five is, and then let's go

680
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: from there.

681
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 6: What would the past two months detailed plans have emerged

682
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 6: on the right for what they want to do upon

683
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 6: getting back to power. There's different factions on the right.

684
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 6: They're preparing separate plans. There's also rivalries between them. But

685
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 6: Project twenty twenty five I think stands out among all

686
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 6: these different factions at different plans. It was launched in

687
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 6: April twenty twenty two under the leadership of the Heritage Foundation,

688
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 6: and it really unites much of the conservative movement, conservative

689
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 6: think tank machine, the activist lobbying groups behind the goal

690
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 6: of installing a much more effective, much more ruthless right

691
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 6: wing regime. If you zoom out then to try to

692
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 6: understand what is this Project twenty twenty five, I think

693
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 6: it's best described as the American Rights Declaration of war

694
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 6: on the idea of a multiracial, pluralistic, diverse society. It's

695
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 6: a plan to execute what amounts to a comprehensive authoritarian

696
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 6: takeover of American government, and then a plan to use

697
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 6: government as a tool to impose a really extreme, a

698
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 6: radical reactionary agenda and vision for society on the entire

699
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 6: country against the will of the majority of Americans. And

700
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 6: it's really is of this idea of a white Christian

701
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 6: patriarchal order, and everybody has to idea to that. So

702
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 6: again it's this this, this comprehensive plan to take over

703
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 6: government and then and then use it as a tool

704
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 6: to impose that on society.

705
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what that looks like. Give us some

706
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: very concrete, kind of examples of things that it wants

707
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: to do.

708
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 6: I think it's important to note that there's so broadly speaking,

709
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 6: it envisions a vast expansion of presidential power over the

710
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 6: executive branch of government. So that's the first thing they

711
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 6: want to do. And then they want to dismantal certain

712
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 6: parts of government, certain parts of the administrative state and

713
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 6: federal agencies, while simultaneously mobilizing and weaponizing other parts. I

714
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 6: think it's really important to keep them together at the

715
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 6: same time because they talk a lot about, oh, we

716
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 6: want to dismantle the state, and you know, to some

717
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 6: extent that's true. For instance, they say our Department of

718
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 6: Education that needs to be abolished, like straight up abolished,

719
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 6: it needs to go, or like the EPA, they want

720
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 6: to delate a lot of stuff. So this is sort

721
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 6: of the stuff that you would know from a conservative

722
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 6: legal movement, like get out of you with all these

723
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 6: regulations and everything that goes against moneyed interests. So that

724
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 6: needs to go. But at the same time, this is

725
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 6: not a small government libertarian kind of vision because they

726
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 6: also identify everything that can be used. So basically, everything

727
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 6: that is a tool for government to create a thera

728
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 6: a more egalitarian society needs to go. But everything that

729
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: can be used as a tool to impose the sort

730
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 6: of reactionary white Christian patriarchal order on society, all that

731
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 6: needs to be mobilized and weaponized. So for instance, the

732
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 6: Department of Health and Human Services, right for them, that's

733
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 6: not about public health, that's entirely about imposing sort of

734
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 6: a white Christian reactionary understanding of oh there's a man

735
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 6: and woman and marriages just between a man and a

736
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 6: woman and whatever like of course, like total abortion ban,

737
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 6: and that's how they want to use that or the

738
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 6: CDC for instance, which generally they hate. But also they

739
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 6: want to create this sort of massive data bank at

740
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 6: the CDC where every information about every abortion in the

741
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 6: entire country is of centrally located at this one place.

742
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 6: So this is not a small government libertarian vision, not

743
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 6: at all. It's a vision of sort of weaponizing and

744
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 6: then mobilizing the coersive powers of the state against their enemies.

745
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

746
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: No, no, they're total liars. They want to use the

747
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: government to get what they want. But this project twenty

748
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: twenty five comes from the Heritage Foundation. So talk to

749
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: us about the sort of Heritage Foundation and what part

750
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: they play in those Yeah.

751
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 6: So this is really important because I think some people

752
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 6: still think, oh, yeah, so Trump Trump is crazy, right,

753
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 6: and Maga is crazy, and this is of the crazy

754
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 6: right wing fringe. But this is as establishment as it gets.

755
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 6: This is not the fringe. The Heritage Foundation was established

756
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy three during the Nixon administration, when stills

757
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 6: of the Conservatives had had this sense that just Nixon

758
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 6: wasn't enough. They needed a more conservatives of these all

759
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 6: these institutions to counter what they perceived as of liberal hegemony.

760
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 6: So they created all these think tanks, and Heritage has

761
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 6: always been the most important, the most influential conservative think tank,

762
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 6: the one that is closest to power, that has closest

763
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 6: to the center of the Republican Party. It was associated

764
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 6: with Reaganism, and it associated itself with of Reaganism. But

765
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 6: in recent years it took a decided least of Trumpy

766
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 6: in turn, and the guy who's currently in charge, Kevin Roberts,

767
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 6: who became the president of the Courritage Fundation in late

768
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 6: twenty twenty one, is varies of instrumental in taking the

769
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 6: Heritage Foundation in a much more openly radical, open lyaset

770
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 6: of pro Trumpist direction. And so now they openly say

771
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 6: our mission is to institutionalize Trumpism, by which they mean

772
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 6: not like containing it or taming it, but making it

773
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 6: more effective, right, making it more efficient. And so what

774
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: you have here they basically they brought all these conservative

775
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 6: institutions organizations together, like I think as of right now,

776
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 6: over one hundred conservative institutions are listed as part of

777
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 6: their advisory board. Project twenty twenty five's advisory board, and everyone,

778
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 6: like everyone you can think of is it's like who

779
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 6: is who of some of reactionary organizations and institutions in America.

780
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 6: So they brought them all together unite them behind this project.

781
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 6: And so what this really tells us is it was

782
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 6: an interesting Here was an interview with Kevin Roberts and

783
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 6: Indwork Times in December where he said something like this

784
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 6: is not the fringe, this is heritage. And he's right,

785
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 6: this is not the fringe. This is as conservative establishment

786
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 6: as it gets. So this should tell us something about

787
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 6: where the center the power center of American conservatism, how

788
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 6: much that has radicalized, how much that has moved to

789
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 6: the right. And that is why I think this is

790
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 6: so instructive to look at Project twenty twenty five.

791
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And it's

792
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: so interesting because they have a real plan for things.

793
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: So tell me what else you have found where you're like,

794
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: this is horrifying.

795
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 6: I'll say, maybe so one more of detailed thing and

796
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 6: then one big picture thing. So the more detailed thing is,

797
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 6: like I said, this is a plan to dismantle some

798
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 6: point of government and then weaponize and mobilize other parts

799
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 6: of government as sort of a tool.

800
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 4: Right.

801
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 6: But all of this only works if you have the

802
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 6: manpower to like to the right kind of personnel, the

803
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 6: right kinds of people, to put into these institutions of government,

804
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 6: into these federal departments, into these federal agencies, into these

805
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 6: federal commissions. They didn't have that in twenty seventeen. And

806
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 6: they know exactly that they didn't have that in twenty seventeen, right,

807
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 6: they didn't have the people, right, so they had to

808
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 6: rely on Remember all that the adults in the room

809
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 6: and all that nonsense, but that was actually it wasn't

810
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 6: true in the White House, but it was true in

811
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 6: across the agencies in the federal government, all these sort

812
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 6: of career diplomats or bureaucrats or experts. Right, So this

813
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 6: time they want to get rid of all of these people.

814
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 6: Underlying all this is this fever dream of a great

815
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 6: urge of government officials. They want to come in. They

816
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 6: want to fire and replace up to fifty thousand federal

817
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 6: employees by implementing something that they call it's called Schedule F.

818
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 6: It's basically idea of stripping civil service actions of like

819
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 6: fifty thousand people in order to make them virable, right

820
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 6: and then replace them with what they themselves call quote

821
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 6: conservative warriors. This is explicitly what they're looking for, sore

822
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 6: right now, they're engaged in this massive vetting operation where

823
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 6: they're looking for they're using an online questionnaire thing to

824
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 6: find these of true ideological believers and put them in

825
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 6: place everywhere. And again, this is a completely different thing,

826
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 6: completely different animal compared to twenty seventeen. This is not

827
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 6: just going to be Trump two, is not just going

828
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 6: to be more of the same of Trump one. Not

829
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 6: that the first Trump presidency wasn't awful, but this is

830
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 6: going to be a completely different animal. And this is

831
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 6: partly why they, like no one understands better than these

832
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 6: people that they were not ready in twenty seventeen. They

833
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 6: didn't have plans, they didn't understand government. The people who

834
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 6: Trump brought in had no idea what they were doing.

835
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 6: And so this time they understand, we need to be ready,

836
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 6: we need to have the plans ready, and we need

837
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 6: to have the people to put in place to sort

838
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 6: of implement those plans. And I mean again, like this

839
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 6: is as comprehensive as it gets. This should tell everyone

840
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 6: next time they will be ready.

841
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

842
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 6: Over the past few years, I've found one of the

843
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 6: more frustrating things in American politics is if you try

844
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 6: to describe to people who may not be paying it

845
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 6: all that much attention to American politics. By the way,

846
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 6: this is not the criticism is just not everyone gets

847
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 6: paid to do this, right.

848
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,959
Speaker 1: No, No, I get it, man, Yeah, no, I get

849
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: paid to do this. But yes, I agree, there's a

850
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: lot of news fatigue, especially after trump Ism.

851
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 6: Absolutely I get that right. People need to like people

852
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 6: need to live their lives and they have stuff to

853
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 6: deal with. That's okay. But then what makes it frustrating

854
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 6: is when you describe to people, again who don't pay

855
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 6: all that much attention to American politics, how much the

856
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 6: American right has radicalized and how radical these plans are.

857
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 6: You got looked at like you have fallen off the

858
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 6: deep end, that this is just some lefty crazy conspiracy right, right,

859
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 6: So it can be really difficult to convey to people. No, look,

860
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 6: this is what they are saying. So in this respect,

861
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 6: I think Project twenty twenty five is actually tremendously helpful.

862
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 6: I'm almost grateful to them for writing this down because

863
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 6: like the right wing leaders who are behind these projects,

864
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 6: they could not possibly be clear about the reactionary vision

865
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 6: they want to impose on the country. They are telling

866
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 6: us that they do not accept this egalitarian, pluralistic idea

867
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 6: of a society in which the individual's status is no

868
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 6: longer determined by race, gender, religion, and well, and they

869
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 6: feel justified in taking like really radical extreme measures to

870
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 6: prevent that society from ever becoming a reality, because they

871
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 6: believe they are defending quote unquote real America in service

872
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 6: of this higher purpose, the purpose of entrenching the quote

873
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 6: unquote natural order and divine will. And these are the

874
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 6: kind of categories in which they think right, in which

875
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 6: they justify what they are doing. I tell people, look,

876
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 6: if you don't want to believe me, fair enough, some

877
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 6: lefty liberal professor who would trust me, fine, okay, just

878
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 6: read what they have to say. And I always tell people, look, okay,

879
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 6: So they're putting out this sort of nine hundred and

880
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 6: twenty page policy agenda report, which I don't expect people

881
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 6: to read, but in that thing, and they have it

882
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 6: on their website. You can just google Project twenty twenty five,

883
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 6: and they have this nine hundred and twenty page report

884
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 6: on as a PDF document on the website and you

885
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 6: go to it, and in it the president of the

886
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 6: Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts, he wrote the foreword to it.

887
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 6: He's calling it a promise to America. So basically his

888
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 6: promise to America. I'm going to call it a threat,

889
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 6: but whatever he calls it, his promise to America. Right,

890
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 6: it's just like fifteen sixteen pages, I think, is what

891
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 6: it is. And I just want everyone to just just

892
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 6: read this, just those few pages. It is so open,

893
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 6: is there's nothing in between the lines. There's no you

894
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 6: don't have to like translate or read between the lines.

895
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 6: It is so open, it is so aggressive. It is

896
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 6: sort of this visceral disdain for anything in anyone who

897
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 6: deviates from this sort of white Christian patriarchal understanding of

898
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 6: what society should look like. It could not possibly be

899
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 6: clearer than that. And so I think again, if you

900
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 6: read this and you come away from this thinking, yeah,

901
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 6: I like this kind of stuff, okay, whatever, like we

902
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 6: probably can be friends, but.

903
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: You're probably not listening to this podcast.

904
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 6: Exactly Like I wouldn't expect that. But then at least

905
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 6: you know fair enough, you know what's up. But again,

906
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 6: if you read this at least you get a sense

907
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 6: of what the stakes are in November, because, in a

908
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 6: very concrete sense, this is what's on the ballot in November.

909
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 6: This isn't really about Trump versus Biden. It's more again,

910
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 6: this is basically a referendum on whether or not the

911
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 6: attempt to make America into a kind of democratic, pluralistic,

912
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 6: multiracial society to keep going on that path, whether or

913
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 6: not that should be continued or maybe completely abolished. Right,

914
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 6: So this is a thumbs up or down kind of

915
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 6: vote on some democratic self government and the Civil Rights Order.

916
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 6: I just don't see how that could be any clearer

917
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 6: than when you read these of fifteen six pages that

918
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 6: the Heritage Foundation's president were down there. And again, in

919
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 6: that sense, I'm I'm honestly kind of grateful for them

920
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 6: for just writing it down and telling the world, also

921
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 6: telling it this is our promise to America. And then

922
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 6: I think America should decide do we like this or not?

923
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 5: Right?

924
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: No, I agree, obviously on the left, we're all completely horrified.

925
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: But one of the things about trump Ism is there's

926
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: almost no pushback. You know, Trump says the crazy and like,

927
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: with very few exceptions, I mean, Mitch McConnell, who we

928
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: know hates him, already endorsed him. So like, I mean,

929
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: is this just where the Republican Party is now? If

930
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: Democrats were enacting a bold but insane and anti democratic legislation,

931
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: I think there'd be some pushback.

932
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I agree. So there are different factions on

933
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 6: the right, and not everyone wants Project twenty twenty five

934
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 6: in charge. Right, So Trump's campaign they are working on

935
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 6: their own sort of set of plans. They call it

936
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 6: Agenda forty seven. There other there's the America America First

937
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 6: Policy Institute, like overts of Trump administration alumni coming together,

938
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 6: like they are working on their own plans, and these

939
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 6: different factions they're buying for power. They they don't necessarily

940
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 6: all like each other, so that that stuff is definitely

941
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 6: going on. But on substance, right, there is no disagreement

942
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 6: about any of this kind of stuff. That's also why

943
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 6: I find it very misleading when people sort of say, oh,

944
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 6: these plans don't matter, Like ultimately Trump is going to

945
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 6: be Trump, and Trump doesn't care about any of this

946
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 6: kind of stuff, and he's not the kind of guy

947
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 6: to implement, you know, a comprehensive policy agenda. Look, I agree,

948
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 6: Trump's not going to sit down and read nine hundred

949
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 6: and twenty pages of policy, but he'll.

950
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: Put the judges in that they that they tell him to.

951
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 6: It's even more than that, I get it right. So

952
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 6: in some sense he is not exactly an ideal vessel

953
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 6: for the kinds of ambitious, comprehensive plans that they have

954
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 6: here because he's erratic, he's lazy, he is volatile, and

955
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 6: he's not sitting down to like dive into this kind

956
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 6: of stuff yet. Right, he is sort of he's animated

957
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 6: by his spirit of vengefulness and grievance, and he is extreme.

958
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 6: He isn't restrained by norms, and that is precisely why

959
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 6: the right united behind him in the first place in

960
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 6: twenty sixteen. They didn't want a conquote normal Republican. They

961
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 6: wanted someone who would take the gloves of someone who

962
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 6: would be willing to do whatever it takes in their

963
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 6: sort of understanding of where America is. So they wanted

964
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 6: someone who would certainly not reject Project twenty twenty five

965
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 6: because he thought it was going to be too extreme,

966
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 6: or because he had qualms about questions of legality and

967
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 6: precedent and all that. It takes a truly radical president

968
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 6: in the White House to implement plans like these, because

969
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 6: they are pretty radical, right, and that is Trump, That

970
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 6: is Trump. If you compare these plans to what Trump

971
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 6: himself says what he wants to do, you know, in

972
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 6: his sort of rambling speeches and rallies and all that

973
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 6: kind of stuff, the general thrust of Project twenty twenty

974
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 6: five is entirely in line with what Trump wants to

975
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 6: do with power, right, Urge these centers from government, place

976
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 6: them with loyalists, expand presidential power, and make the executive

977
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 6: into a tool for whatever the regime wants to do. Look,

978
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 6: it doesn't take much sophisticated analysis to explain why such

979
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 6: plans would appeal to Trump. He wants power, he wants impunity,

980
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 6: he wants the ability to plunder.

981
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: Is an autocrat, yeah, right, And.

982
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 6: He will certainly not sit down again and read through

983
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 6: the nine hundred and twenty pages of this sort of

984
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 6: policy agenda report Project twenty twenty They will not no, no,

985
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 6: But Donald Trump, as someone with aggressively autocratic instincts and sensibilities,

986
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 6: We'll look at this and think, oh yeah, I kind

987
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 6: of like this, right, like giving me all this power

988
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 6: and like purging my enemies from the states and punishing

989
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 6: my enemies, and he likes all that kind of stuff.

990
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 6: The idea that there will be some sort of internal

991
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 6: friction that will sort of make this fail, I find

992
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 6: that not plausible at all. This this will work really

993
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 6: well with what Trump wants to do.

994
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: Exactly if Trump gets re elected. This is where we go.

995
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thomas. I hope you'll come.

996
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 6: Back absolutely anytime, any time. They're no more perfectly Jesse

997
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 6: Cannon I drunk fast.

998
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 3: We know the Republicans don't believe in democracy, but then

999
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: they sometimes do really really hilarious things to show us

1000
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: some great examples of this. What are you see in here?

1001
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: Kentucky has a Democratic governor named Andy Buschers.

1002
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: He just won reelection.

1003
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: And one of the things, I mean, this is like

1004
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 1: so unbelievable. You know, you have this Republican state legislature

1005
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: and then a democratic governor. So they were real worried

1006
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: about their two senators, but only one of them, and

1007
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: so they made it so now the governor doesn't get

1008
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: to replace a senator if they die. You know why

1009
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: they did this right because Mitch MCCONNALLD is about to

1010
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: give up leadership, is extremely old, has been having some

1011
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: health issues. It's just such a craven power grab and

1012
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: it's also set up, you know, in just a totally

1013
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: disgusting and for that, that is our.

1014
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: Moment of fuck Ray.

1015
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1016
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1017
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1018
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1019
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.