WEBVTT - David Macias 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.719 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:18.360 I guess today is David Mucius, president of thirty Tigers. David, 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:20.439 good to have you on the podcast. Well, I am 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.759 very happy to be here. I am. I'm a fan 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.200 of the podcast, as you know. I love hearing the 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.360 stories of so many of your guests, and I learned 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.000 a lot. So it's a real thrill to be uh 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.240 to be joining you. Okay, let's jump in. What exactly 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.720 is thirty Tigers. We are a label services company h 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.720 that that tries as uh much as possible to uh 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:48.600 to just be a label infrastructure, holistic labels infrastructure for 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.360 artists that allows them to take their music to market 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.880 without having to give up ownership of their masters, but 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.320 also without any sort of diminution in the quality of 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:05.120 the effort. I'm there the marketing of their their music. Okay, 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:09.120 so let's dig a little deeper. People find you, you 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.200 find them. How is the relationship established? Well, it happens 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.440 you know, any number of ways. UM, I'd say, I 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.119 think with one exception, UM, all the relationships that we've 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:27.360 entered into came through UH an attorney, a manager, UM, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:29.600 you know, some sort of an advocate. I think it's 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.480 it's uh. I mean, I try to be open to 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.600 hearing uh, either me or Lee Tonay, who's our vice 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:38.360 president of van or we make you know where the 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.119 where the sort of the points of entry in terms 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.640 of these conversations. We try to be open and we 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.759 try to listen to you know, everybody. But it takes 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.560 a village to UH in a you know, a robust 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.000 team for artists to succeed at at a high level. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.840 And so if somebody comes and they don't they don't 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.480 have any teammates, it can be a daunting thing for 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.360 us to to take on. Having said that, UM, well, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.480 I guess you know we have Actually I think lately 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.040 we've done more things where you know, I've heard an 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:10.800 artist they didn't really have a team, and then we 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:12.880 were the first teammate and kind of put something, you know, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.120 things together. But we won't go out to market without 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.680 a full team. And if I can't put a team 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.080 around an artist, then we don't do it. Do you 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.880 manage any artists or is it always outside management? I 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.880 co managed Patty Griffin with a wonderful UH partner in 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.840 crime named Carolyn Rosenfeld. Um I used to manage more artists, 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.639 but as the label services side of the business grew. Um, 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.760 I mean, management is a very full on experience, and 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:41.960 it just I just I don't think I have the 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.960 you know, the bandwidth to to manage anyone else and 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.080 do it right. And and Caroline and I but I 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.120 just I love Patty Griffin so much. I love her music. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.160 I feel honored to be um, you know, I was 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.600 honored to be asked to to, uh, you know, help 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.720 go fight for her out in the world. And Caroline 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.040 and I, uh, you know, we really relish that opportunity 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.160 that we've been given. But yeah, I'm not I'm not 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.320 going to manage anyone else. Okay, So you talk about 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.880 an act coming with a team in the best of circumstances, 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.160 what are the team members you're looking for? Well? Management, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.800 But honestly, to me, the most important component part of 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.600 the team is probably the agent. Uh you know. The 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:29.079 live experience is the most intimate way in which artists 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.680 connect with their fans, and if and if an artist 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.560 can't do that, or they can't do it at a 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.040 very high level, then it's really hard for me to 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.040 envision how how all that's gonna work. Um. I know 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.680 that there's certain types of music where the live thing 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.960 isn't uh isn't quite as important, but you know, we 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:52.040 don't we don't necessarily you know, work in those genres 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.040 quite as much. But for for our wheelhouse, UM, I 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.560 would say the agent is probably the top priority. Um. Well, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.120 let's style stay with the agent for a second. Sure, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.720 in this business, traditionally, you can't get an agent until 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.720 you've already proven that you can sell tickets. So is 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.960 it your experience that everybody comes to you already has 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.960 some kind of road business or sometimes they just hooked 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.080 up with an agent and they haven't really worked. I'd 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.719 say that's probably the case of the time. But you know, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:28.240 there's a handful of agents, uh that I think are 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:33.400 like I think about Jonathan Levine with Wasserman. Um. You know, 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.360 you know, just found out about an artist named Kylie 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.280 Connell who I'm awe struck by and I encourage all 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.200 of all of your listeners to go check her out. Uh. 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.800 And I was so dumb struck by her talent. And 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.280 I mean, and she doesn't have you know, she's she's 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.160 here in Nashville, she doesn't have a touring base, she 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.480 doesn't really have a team. And I sent her that 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.400 sent Jonathan the music, and he just, uh as I did, 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.200 flipped out, and and he's he's brought her on and 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.680 we're we're sort of building out the team together. I mean, sometimes, 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.320 you know, great music just you just can't say no 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.320 to it. You just have to you feel compelled to 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.160 to just get behind it and start working. And so 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.080 it's not but you know that the time, I would 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.600 say that it's helpful if the artist does have a 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.760 little bit of a momentum or some some sort of 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.280 you know, uh, some sort of uh yeah, just some 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.560 sort of a live business already. But it's not it's 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.599 you know, it's not essential. So the lady you're talking about, 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.960 you heard this music, you flipped out? Did she have 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:39.040 any team members? Well, she now has a manager. Uh 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.880 before when you heard the music, did you have any 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.720 team member? She had nothing. How did you hear the music? 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.800 I heard? I am friendly. I have a whole you know, 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.600 group of people out there that I consider I trust 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:57.520 their judgment um in this particular time, in this particular instance, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.559 there's a blogger named Kyle Carron who writes a blog 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:06.040 called Saving Country Music. And um he I consider him 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.520 a friend and I think he's got great, you know, 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.400 great ears. And he just sent me a text one 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.320 day and just said Kylie Connell and that was it. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.400 And I went on Spotify and I listened and it 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.280 was just like, oh my god. And I just I 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.520 asked him what her um you know like, And she 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.760 had a publicist because obviously that was how he she 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.840 got his radar. And so I found the publicist and 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:35.800 and she that was the only person that she had 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.560 on her team. And so then I but I asked 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:40.039 to be put in touch with her, and then I 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.560 got in touch and we just started talking and and 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.680 and subsequently, uh, you know, other teammates have come on board. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.160 But I feel like she's got a it's got a 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.040 very you know, good team. She's got a Adam from 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.200 Mcmanagement is going to is managing her now. And then 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.719 Mcmanagement is a great company, and Wasserman is a great agent. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.640 You know, we do what we do well, and you know, 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:04.920 so it's like, okay, well here we go. Okay, you 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.719 hear the music, the music is great. Do you say yes, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:09.520 I'm gonna do this or you say, let me see 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.040 what I can do it? Is your first call to 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.360 Jonathan the agent? And how do you get the manager 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.520 involved in this case? Um, well, actually the management conversation 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.280 was happening. Uh, Adam had had actually discovered I didn't 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.640 approach Adam about it. Adam had found her him or 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:32.080 had found Kylie on on his his own. And but 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.400 I think that, you know, but we sort of committed 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.440 and then they continue to converse and and uh and 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.840 then Adam subsequently, uh, you know, came on board. Um, 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.480 so you know, and also I'll say, I mean put 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.440 his way with Kylie. I just said like, yes, we'll 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.880 do this. But but again, we're you know, contingent on us, 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.280 you know, because if I can't put the team together, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.120 if there can't be a robust team, then it's not 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:58.720 going to go very well for either of us. I'm 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.520 not doing any favors for her by you know, saying yes, 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.680 if I can't convince other people of immense quality to 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.560 come aboard, and um, and it's just not gonna work 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.120 very well for for us either. And so UM, I mean, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.480 I run a business. I I feel like we have 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.800 very uh equitable terms, but it is a business. I'm 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.680 not an art patron, you know, Uh, necessarily so, uh, 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.880 you know, it's got to make sense for for all concerns. 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.720 But but I'm a very passionate music fan and uh 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.600 and her music just moved me to my core and 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.360 I felt compelled to to try to move having an 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.360 arts to two help put things together for you know, 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.079 because I think she's going to have an incredibly bright career. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.840 Let's go back to the team members, the agent, what 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.400 other team members would you prefer an act come with. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.800 I mean, if they have, if they have a relationship. 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.800 And this would only be for more established artists. I 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.880 also pay a lot of attention to the PR person. Uh. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.920 You know, we're very much we think a lot in 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.840 terms of narrative, you know anytime. Um, I mean, our 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.480 job as marketers is to help explain to people the 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.559 emotional relationship that that we think that they're going to 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.280 have with the music. You know, with the art. Our 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.840 job is to explain the art to the people. And 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.000 that can happen through a multitude of mediums. But for 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.840 most of the acts that we work with, UM, you know, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.719 press is hugely important. And even though you feel like 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.480 there's a compelling story, I mean, I have a you know, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.600 shorthand for talking about some of the stuff. And I'm like, well, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.480 look if you if you want to be on Morning Edition, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.440 uh you they have to talk about you for six minutes. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.200 What are they going to say? You know? And and 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.120 trying to sort of help an artist think about how 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.040 to frame their story, um is where where it's like, well, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.040 who are you as a person and why did this 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.680 artistic expression flow from you as though inevitable? You know, 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.400 sort of like a Greek drama character is destiny, you know, 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.959 type of thing. And when you can explain who this 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.520 person is and why they're artistic expression flowed from them 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.160 as though inevitable, you are painting a picture of an 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.400 authentic artist. And I think people want to believe they're 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:16.880 the artists that they uh, you know, they invite into 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.040 their lives and um so getting that story right is 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.840 very important. But it's also important to get the you know, 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.600 a PR person who's hyper credible because you know, if 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.200 you think about, like using Morning Edition as an example, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:34.000 if you are uh, if you're that Morning show or 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:39.680 Morning Edition producer, uh, you have there's PR people that 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.079 you trust when they call you and be like I've 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.040 got I've got a great story for you to tell 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.000 that comes with great music. There's certain people, you know, 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.640 publicists that are going to have more credibility than you know, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:55.040 others who are you know, kind of more you know, uh, 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:56.760 you know people that will just you know, if somebody's 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.960 going to write them a check, they'll they'll try their 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.480 hardest and do their do the work, but they don't 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.920 necessarily have the credibility that certain others will have. So 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.040 it's important and and and and who will be a 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.720 credible advocate differs from the you know, from from project 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.599 to project. You know, we work with um, you know, 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.480 Lupe Fiasco. A credible advocate for Loupe is going to 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.120 be different than a credible advocate for sake Higlie, you know, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.920 because it's a very different type of music, different stories 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.440 that they're that they're telling. But that's a huge component part. 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.480 And sometimes artists, you know, if they have a pre 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.679 existing relationship with a a publicist, that definitely factors in, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.560 because um, you know, if there's somebody that comes aboard 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.400 that I don't have a lot of faith in, that 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.160 factors in. But there's certain people that you know, when 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.120 they come with other publicists, I'm like, oh, getty up, 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.880 let's go. You know, because I've seen their work and 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.640 know that when they call that morning edition producer that 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.360 it's a pretty good chance that they're going to take 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.560 that call and give it all due consideration. Okay, so 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.439 those are two members, the agent and the PR person. 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.920 What other team members are you looking for? Well, I 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:09.319 mean management for for sure. But um but but but 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.840 you know that I think I look at uh, you know, 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.560 I look at you know, managers is like the conductor 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.640 of the orchestra, and it's you know, in the conductor 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.679 you know, has their their role. But if the if 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.720 the violin players can't play and the obo obo has suck, 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:26.920 then you know you're not gonna doesn't matter what the 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.480 conductor is doing, you know. So I feel like the 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.840 people that are out there, um, you know, building the 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.560 you know, the touring plans and and and and being 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.120 the primary advocate and the and the uh you know, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.920 the disseminator of the narrative, those are you know, to me, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.360 those are the you know, I mean it was I mean, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.200 managers are hugely important. I mean because they can call 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.200 and bring other people and all that stuff. So I mean, 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.600 you know, I think they're equally as important. But you know, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.120 those are those are the kind of the two things. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.960 And beyond that, I think we pretty much do everything 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.720 else in internally, So um, I mean, we've got you know, 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.960 great you know radio team, We've got people that work 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.480 you know, one person that does nothing but in the retail. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.400 You know, we've got a you know great uh you 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.240 know woman who's running our European efforts with a small 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.160 team over there. You know. So I think, you know, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.240 outside of that, I think, you know, if we if 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.160 we can get those things right, I think that we're 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.840 pretty much on board. And what about having an attorney, Well, sure, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.120 I mean I think I think, um, I mean, I mean, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.920 obviously we we encourage all of the artists to have 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:36.600 attorneys who know what they're doing, because we don't want 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.480 any surprises. I mean, our our deals are I think 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:45.520 in the context of most recording relationships, uh uh, you know, 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.839 they're there. I think our deals are fairly simple. But 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.439 but I think it's important that that there are no surprises. 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.840 I mean, we don't want uh, you know, we want 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.240 somebody who's got a good advocate in the legal front, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.200 because they can playing the deal, they can any questions 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.560 come up. It's just uh, you know, it's sort of 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.280 like good good fences make good neighbors, well, good contracts 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.480 yield good working relationships because when somebody gets surprised on 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.160 down the road, it's not a pleasant experience for anyone. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.120 And so, um, yeah, so there's you know, we we 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.960 um in fact, I have great um and I know 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.240 that's your background too, um, but I have I have 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.080 great respect for the legal profession of fact. Um. I 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.000 was on course when when h when the major label 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.080 world invited me to explore my destiny elsewhere and I 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.040 started this company. I went back to school and go 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.800 and finished my uh my undergrad degree with an emphasis 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.600 on pre law. And if this company was not a 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.760 going concern five years in, I was going to go 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.160 to law school and become an entertainment attorney. So I 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.480 love the law. I think it's you know again, that's 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.760 how how we how we make it through. So but 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.120 but I don't I mean, we were we worked with 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.320 a ton of attorney, but I don't, um, you know, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.320 I think most of the attorneys that we work with 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.600 are you know, really solid, they know what they're doing. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.040 There's very very few attorneys that that you know, we 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:13.960 I can't even think of anybody off the top of 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.760 my head that where it's just kind of like if 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:17.600 they come, if they if they're part of the discussion, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:19.120 that we're not going to do the deal. I mean, 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.120 I just I just think most attorneys are good at 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.520 what they do, and you know, it's it's it's I 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.120 don't really consider that a huge factor and whether we're 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.280 going to do business with somebody or not. Okay, So 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:33.600 let's just assume somebody comes with people attached two factors. 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.160 You know, I certainly know managers who have fired clients 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.240 because the manager wanted it more than the act. And two, 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.920 there's a long history of people in this business starting 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.880 off with one manager or one agent and as they 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.120 gain traction, going with somebody else. So to what degree 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:57.320 do you evaluate the desire of the act and to 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.560 what degree but you say, well, you know, I know 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.720 you have this person, but we really should change that person. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.000 I think if I have doubts about their person that 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.280 there you know, any member of their team coming in, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.480 I probably won't, you know, do the deal. I just 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.520 feel like that's not you know, I don't know, it's 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.200 just a personal thing. It just makes me feel you know, 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.080 you know, if they've got somebody that they're committed to, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.960 like if if you know, and I'm invited in, I'm 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.240 not going to ever tell anybody, and I honestly I can't. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.120 I'm trying to think of like times recently where I've 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.280 even felt that way. Um, and I can't really feel like, 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:33.920 you know, like, well, if they had a different manager, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.000 I do it. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.600 remember any any instances. But um, if I do something, 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.960 then my goal is to work with that team and 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.680 and and honor the honor that team. Um. And if 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:52.120 I feel like, you know, there's a you know, if 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.560 if if there's something in with a manager and you know, 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.120 I might it just I might not do the deal. 0:16:58.240 --> 0:16:59.960 But you know, again, I can't think of any time 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.440 that that's really worked. And and honestly, most artists that 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.480 we work with are you know, it's very tough to 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.359 make it right now. I mean there's a lot of 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.919 places too. You know, media is so fragmented that you know, 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.240 I think, uh, it's like if you know, I think 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.000 I think most artists have their head on straight and 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.679 they're ready to work hard and and Um, and they 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.080 may not know everything they need to know about about 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.879 the business. But but almost everybody that we work with, 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:26.600 I can't think of anybody that doesn't have a solid 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.720 work ethic. So you talked about Kylie just to establish 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.480 here she's the anomaly. Most people come to you with 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.119 some sort of base, some sort of traction. Would that 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.920 be accurate? Yes, I think so, Okay, every deal is unique, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.119 but what is the standard deal so to speak? Yeah, well, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.000 there's not a lot of variants in our deals. We 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.280 just sort of do what we do and and kind 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:49.520 of a rule of thought, you know, kind of a 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.080 rule of thumb for us, is that you know, artists 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:57.639 are se the gross uh you know the other you 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:02.679 know percent uh you know uh, you know, the orchard 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.600 takes their distribution fee out of it and then but 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.639 you know we we between that goes to us in 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.639 the orchard. And so when we set up the business, 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.680 our goal was to work um ideally on no less 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.560 than a ten percent gross margin and a three percent 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.399 net margin. So um, but the the artist, you know, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.560 we'll get back to what they make of gross proceeds. 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.040 But any advances that we give or any moneys that 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:35.240 gets spent on their behalf comes out of that UM. 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.879 And also we put it in our contracts to where uh, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.800 you know, we can only spend two hundred and fifty 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.000 dollars UM a month, so that you know, for sending 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.720 Bruce Warren at wor you know, w XPN a piece 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.720 of vinyl on an artist or something like that, we 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.480 don't have to call the manager and be like, hey, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.399 can we send Brusa you know, ah, you know an 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.560 LP UM. You know, some of the basic blocking and tackling. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:18:59.480 We don't want to you know, get bogged down in 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.920 the minute, but we also don't want to all of 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.199 a sudden spring up. Well, we decided to do a 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.639 five thousand dollar Facebook ad campaign surprise, you know, because 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.760 the artists own this work and and the expenses come 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.360 out of their sides. Where we consider it, I mean 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.320 we we won't it won't be a pleasing experience if 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:22.800 they don't feel like we're we're transparent uh and um, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.679 you know, good stewards of their financial well being. So um. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:31.760 But we also you know, in addition to the of 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.960 what proceeds that come through the distribution channels, we allow 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.000 them to keep a hundred percent of anything they sell 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.080 on the road, a hundred percent of dwo C money 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.720 we don't share. If somebody sells a you know, something 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.879 on the road, they keep a hundred percent of it. Um. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.880 They keep a hundred percent of master use licenses for 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.320 film and TV. When it comes to sound exchange money, 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.439 they keep a hundred percent of both the artist and 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.040 the label side of the money. I jokingly refer to 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.200 us as the proud home of the sixty deal um. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.040 And uh, you know, and and it works for our artists, 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.000 you know, well, I mean assuming a certain level of success. 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.840 You know, if they keep control over what they're doing 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:13.440 and they can earn a living, then they're going to 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.320 continue to do business with us. And I think that, um, 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.480 not that everybody stays. And and I'm very zen about 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.800 you know. I mean, artists have started with us and 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.320 then and then gone on to other places and and 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.359 uh um, And we protect ourselves if if somebody something 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.080 starts to blow up and they feel like they need 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:37.359 the resources to uh uh you know, to you know, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.240 expand the conversation, like you know, Morgan Wade. I'm not 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.600 sure if you're familiar with Morgan, but she's you know, 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.159 Sony signed her and she's looks like she's well on 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.960 her way to being a significant country star. It feels 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.320 that way to me. And um, but you know, Sony 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.720 has a great promotion you know team, and they're they're 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.239 you know, really doing a good job. But you know, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.720 so we I mean, it's not even in our purview 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.840 to stop Morrigan, you know, I mean Luke Holmes was 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:03.760 with us, you know as well, like if when it 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.119 came time for them to go, they can go at 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:08.159 their will. They we don't. We don't have anything in 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.919 our contract that stops them, but we do participate with 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.040 an override and so uh so we uh, you know, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.040 we can afford to be zen as long as we're 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:20.920 protecting you know, our you know, if we built the 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:25.399 foundation or or participated in building the foundation, then you 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.720 know we deserve to and it's essential that we you know, 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.520 protect ourselves financially if we're going to sustain as a business. 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.760 So um, but most of our artists don't you know, 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:39.440 they're they're there, you know, you know, the Jason Isbels 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.280 and Lucinda Williams and people like that there there. You 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.960 know that it's like they're there. They love owning their 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.280 own business. They it's a very remunerative way for them 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:50.600 to do business. They have control over whatever they want 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:52.640 to do, and we are they're loving and dutiful back 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.960 end staff, you know. So we encourage all all of 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.920 our artists to think of themselves as their own labels. 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:03.080 They're just partnering with us to get the the robust 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.080 marketing team behind them. So let's just we make a deal. 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:12.000 Is there a term, yes? Is it a three year term? Um? 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.280 And but what we do is uh we uh and 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.040 we let the basically, well, you know, let the artists 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.639 terminate at at will, but we get you know, have 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.520 a certain period of time that they have to do it. 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.280 So basically, if if the deal just you know, if 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.560 we do the three years and the artist, which is 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.320 the case quite often most often almost all the time, 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.160 where the artist is like, hey, this is working great, 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:40.639 let's keep going, um, then the deal just continues. And 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:42.720 so they can terminate once we get past three years. 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:47.160 They can terminate, you know, at any point, given sufficient notice, 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:48.600 so that we can do what we need to do 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:52.240 to transfer distribution over to you know, to whoever is 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.080 going to be their next home. But it also allows 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:57.400 us not to have to like touch the contract every 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.199 three years or anything like that. So so they have 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.919 the freedom to terminate whenever they want, you know, and 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.720 and you know, I like to come up with things 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.640 where we don't have to. You know, the more we're 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.000 thinking about that stuff, the less we're thinking about marketing 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.840 their music and helping them make connections with fans. But 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.399 you did mention an override, so hypothetically your Morgan Wade 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:22.800 or your Luke Combs and within that three years you 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:28.719 fly up to a Sony Universal Warner. Your override is 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.760 for what projects? Let's say they put one record out, 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:35.119 they could put three records out, and is there a 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.840 sunset they The override is just for the project that 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:43.560 we participated in. So we have participation in Luke holmbs 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:46.359 first album, but we don't have it on anything else. 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:51.880 Um and um and and it the override runs into perpetuity. 0:23:52.240 --> 0:24:02.159 So um. So that's how that works. How do you 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.200 know so much about business? You're talking about the margins 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.440 gross margins net margins. You picked that up along the way. 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.000 Do you have a background in this? I just I 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:15.199 you know, I have a very systems oriented brain, you know. 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:21.200 I love I love puzzles. I love um thinking about 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:24.520 how things fit together, and I do. I don't read 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:26.800 a ton of business books, but you know, but I have. 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:30.240 You know, I've read books along the way that have 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.359 really had a big impact. And to be honest with you, 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:35.640 one of the big books that UM had a big 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:38.800 impact on me with Sam Walton's Made in America, Uh, 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.080 you know, because he you know, when he went out there, 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:47.760 he had this lowest price every day uh philosophy, And 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:51.440 there were a lot of critics that were UM going like, 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.960 people can't possibly stay in business selling goods you know, 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.880 that cheap, and so the idea always stuck with me. 0:24:57.359 --> 0:24:59.520 Uh you know. I mean I worked for major labels 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:01.560 from the time it was twenty one two, you know, 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:05.639 thirty five or thirty six, and even though I have 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:08.639 no issues, I don't think there's I mean, you know, 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:11.520 for the amount of money that they you know, they 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.639 spend some times in in promoting their artists and building 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:17.600 every think I've got no I have no ethical qualms 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:20.760 about a major label deal whatsoever. I think everybody has 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:22.760 the right to say, you know, I'm going to take 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:24.480 this risk and I'm going to insist on this kind 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:28.080 of reward. I think in in what I was trying 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:32.840 to do was to um give artists an option where 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:35.840 we really thought about ringing all the inefficiencies out of them. 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:38.480 I mean, that's what Sam Walton did, was you know, 0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:40.960 he looked at supply chain issues. He looked at a 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.200 number of issues and and found a lot of inefficiencies 0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:47.920 in the UM in the chain. And and so he 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.159 in ringing out those inefficiencies, was able to pass the 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:55.760 price savings onto his customers. Well, my customers are artists, 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:59.280 and so if we can you know, think about how 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:03.520 to on things more efficiently so that artists can earn 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:05.520 more money than they're going to continue to shop in 0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:08.439 our store. And that's really you know, one of the 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:12.440 you know, animating philosophies about you know, what we do. 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:14.399 But you know, also like Jim Collins is good, I 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:15.719 mean a lot of the basics, you know, a lot 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:18.040 of the the you know, the big books, you know, 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:20.760 the seven Habits of highly successful people had a big 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.840 impact on me. Jim Collins Good too Great had a 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:28.320 big impact on me. Uh. Patrick Lyncon's five Dysfunctions of 0:26:28.400 --> 0:26:31.359 Team had a big impact on me. UM and you know, 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.080 help shape a lot of our you know, philosophies, but 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:38.920 really the core you know, another of the core philosophies 0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.639 is that I tell my staff all this all the time, 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:45.960 is that you know, the artist is the central uh 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:48.439 thing of value. You know, That's the only thing I 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:50.280 tell my staff all the time. No one ever bought 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:52.920 a thirty Tigers record. They have, however, bought a Jason 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.679 Nisble record and the artist. You know, that implies that 0:26:56.720 --> 0:27:02.560 the artists should have more leverage in uh, in these negotiations. 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:06.359 But I think that there haven't been many. There wasn't 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.399 a big variation in the structures that you know allowed 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:12.119 them to take their their music to market. And and 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:14.840 so my goal was to try to build you know, 0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:18.399 something that would you know, allow artists again. Like I 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.120 grew up, as you know, came up in the music 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:23.159 business as a salesman. I used to go sell you know, 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:25.879 Alan Jackson and Brooks and Doune records to Walmart you know, 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:29.080 and to you know Hastings and you know, etcetera. And 0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:31.879 so I understand that you know, sales is the the 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:35.840 removal of all impediments to it. Yes, And so you know, 0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:39.280 when I think about uh, you know, our artists and 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:41.159 like what is it that's going to get them to 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.800 say yes to doing business with me or thirty tigers 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:48.320 us um, you know, like ownership of the master if 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:52.560 we if we uh allow them to own it, but 0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:55.600 we create an environment where they want to stick around 0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:57.720 and as long as I can get the margin that 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:01.040 we need to run a sustainable business. Is you know, 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.280 it's a very spiritual thing for an artist. They created 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:05.480 this work, It came from inside of them and and 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:08.840 to all you know, and again sometimes it's an entirely 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:12.840 appropriate business decision to give up ownership of that work 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.639 in order to get the support they need. The records 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:17.680 aren't the only way that they monetize their career. There's 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:20.960 publishing revenue, there's live you know, touring revenue. And it 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.800 can be the sane as decision and ever you know, 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:26.800 an artist ever makes to be uh you know, to 0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:28.840 enter into a major label type of deal. But there's 0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:30.720 a lot of artists that you know, like we work 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.280 with Lucinda Williams. Why does she need to do that? 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.760 You know the value of her work is the you 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:40.440 know sort of intrinsic financial value of of of her work. Uh, 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:43.840 you know, it's a sustainable thing if we can give 0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:46.280 her enough revenue to go and record and to publicize 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:49.000 and do all that stuff. Like the the monetary value 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:52.880 of what her work earns um is much higher than 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:57.480 the input costs of what what she's doing. And so 0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:00.920 why should she not have an option that allows her 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:03.320 to be able to do that and and and keep 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.360 that that excess value. So let's assume you have an 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:09.320 act you want to work with, if they have a team, 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:14.000 you're making a deal. Do the acts usually come to 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:17.840 you with a finished record? Do they not come with 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.760 a finished record? Do you advance so they can record 0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:24.600 the record? What's your schedule in terms of the music 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:28.440 being done and how much you know marketing before the 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:32.520 album comes out? What's what's the timeline of all this? Well, 0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:36.720 it depends. I would say that in terms of the 0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:41.560 time constraints up front, there's there longer now than they've 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:47.000 ever been because, uh well, two main factors. One is 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:49.960 is frankly, vinyl production. A lot of our artists, most 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:54.200 of our artists, um, Vinyl is very important to what 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:56.240 they do for a couple of reasons. One is that, 0:29:56.480 --> 0:30:01.200 uh well, it's just a growing configuration. Think during the pandemic, 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:03.280 a lot of people were stuck at home and they 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:06.720 you know, wanted to find ways to entertain themselves at home. 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.400 And they've been hearing about this this you know up 0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:12.200 surgeon and vinyl, and and to be able to have 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.880 a piece of uh, you know, art that they could 0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:17.160 you know, where they had the tangible artifact and they 0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:19.560 could open up the gatefold and read lyrics and and 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:20.800 and all that. It was you know, I think it 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:24.360 was a you know, an important thing during the pandemic. 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:28.360 And we saw sales just surge on vinyl. We went 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:32.960 from I think we did two thousand units in vinyl 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:36.240 in ten and then last year we did over eight 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:41.080 hundred thousand, So we've almost tripled our our vinyl uh 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:43.280 you know sales during that time. But the other reason 0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:46.600 why vinyl is important to us is we place, probably 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:49.840 more than any company I know, placed an inordinate amount 0:30:49.840 --> 0:30:55.280 of emphasis on indie retail because, um, you know, we 0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:57.520 look at them as a medium as much as it 0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.320 is a point of sale. If you're here in I mean, 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:02.880 I'm speaking to you from Nashville, and and you know, 0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:05.400 we have the legendary you know, Grimes records here and 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:07.800 if you if you give a shit about good music 0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:11.200 and you live in Nashville, you shop at Grimes, You're 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.480 probably on their social media feeds. Like that's just part 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:18.160 of of of the of the media mix. And if 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:21.440 you don't have vinal for them to sell, uh, then 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:25.200 they can't participate as you know, your your press persons 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.000 going out and getting you know, uh, you know, you 0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:30.760 know that morning edition piece and and and a radio 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:34.280 team is getting you on appropriate radio stations. If if 0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:36.640 you're the type of artists that where you know, indie 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:41.080 retail is an important factor, you're you're leaving them out 0:31:41.120 --> 0:31:45.000 of the conversation. And social media is a huge part 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:50.440 of how people, you know, accumulate those impressions to to 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:52.680 be able to make the decision to purchase. I mean, 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:55.320 you know, if you think about the last book that 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:57.320 you bought or the last movie that you want to see, 0:31:57.320 --> 0:31:59.200 it wasn't the first decision, you know, it wasn't like 0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:00.880 the first time you heard about it. Really you're like, 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:02.720 I mean, I think about the show Search Party. I 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:05.400 was very late to the Search Party, but I love 0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:08.800 that show and it was just an accumulation. I heard 0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:10.760 some people talk about it. I knew Bow and Yang 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.160 was a fan and I really like his work, and 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:16.280 it was just like an accumulation of impressions. And for 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:21.160 music fans, you know, like in Nashville, Grimey's is like 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:23.960 their Facebook feed, their Twitter feed, all that stuff. That's 0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:28.120 an important way to communicate. And if you don't include 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.400 them or you don't have vinyl ready when street date happens, 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:37.040 then you're you're missing an important taste maker, uh, participant 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:40.160 in the in the conversation. And so so you know, 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:44.560 you know, lead times can be uh, well they're you know, 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:47.840 seven eight months now, you know, and so if you 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:49.560 you can't just sort of be like, hey, I rolled 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.320 out of the studio and like let's go uh you know, 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:53.880 let's put it up there, it's just not going to 0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.040 go as well as it should. I mean, there's certain 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.440 types of music where vinyl isn't quite as important or 0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:01.760 certain you know genre was you know, we we work with, 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:04.560 you know, the gospel artist Marvin Sapp and you know, 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.280 he's not making vinyl and uh and that probably makes 0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:09.920 sense because vinyl isn't a big issue there and and 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:11.720 indie retail is not going to be a big factor 0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:14.960 in what he does. Um, so you know, we addressed 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.080 and and and you know, we just look at the artist, 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:20.520 but the vast majority of our artists are. Vinyl is 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:22.920 a hugely important thing, you know, for for you know, 0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:26.000 and and also if you're gonna spend with sales being 0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:27.240 as big as they are, if you're going to invest 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:28.960 the money in a in a great pr person and 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:31.400 do all the stuff, and you don't have vinyl there, 0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:35.280 like if it's three months late, you know, the conversation 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:38.120 is largely you know, like journalists are moving on, they're 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:40.920 talking about other things. You may get your core fans, 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:44.480 but the general you know public, if they're vinyl, you know, 0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:47.840 buying people in in in your it's not available, you know, 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:50.480 then you're you're they're not going to become a fan. 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:53.440 I mean, I done a little bit of looking around 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:55.239 on that. I feel like if you missed by three 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:58.959 or four months, it could affect your overall vinyl, you know, 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:00.640 in terms of what you're going to sell long term. 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:03.040 By like fift you're just taking money off the table. 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:07.040 So we insist as much as we can. And she 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:10.439 had happened sometimes and you know, things happen and and 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:12.600 but you know, but it's a it's a big priority 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.440 for us to have vinyl on street days. Okay, let's 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:17.759 stay with the vinyl for a second. Sure, since you 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.440 do not almost a million units a year, do you 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.840 reserve time and the pressing plants and then just insert 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:27.920 the acts as they come along? Absolutely? Yeah. We have 0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:32.799 a woman who is a an absolute maestro at organizing 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:35.280 all that. Her name is Mickey Windham, and she uh 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.040 came out of Kindercore, which is a vinyl pressing plan 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:43.280 out of Athens. She understands the the process inside and out, 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:47.000 and she communicates with all these all these uh manufacturers, 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:50.880 and she we you know, yeah, we definitely reserved space 0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:53.880 and and and and move the you know, move the 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:57.080 parts around and all that. So how do you come 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:00.840 up with the vinyl number? And two? What is the 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:05.919 breakdown between retail and merch sales at the show? And 0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:08.480 I would assume just like you don't charge for c 0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:10.759 D s or anything else that show, you wouldn't charge 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:13.239 for vinyl either. We don't, you know, to be honest 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:15.120 with you, I don't know what the percentage breakdown is 0:35:15.160 --> 0:35:19.279 between what we do and um and what the artist does. 0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:21.759 I'm sure it's different. But because they don't report those 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:24.520 to us, I mean, and you know, and we make 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:26.960 sure that they get set up to you know, report 0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:29.680 their sales through at venue or whatever, so that you know, 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:32.520 all of that stuff accumulates. But you know, we don't 0:35:32.520 --> 0:35:36.120 have any financial interest in what they sell on the road, 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:38.759 and so we don't really you know, we don't really know. 0:35:38.840 --> 0:35:40.799 But you know, it can it can differ. But it's 0:35:40.840 --> 0:35:43.439 you know, a lot of artists between their deep their 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:46.240 websites and on the road, they sell a significant amount 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:49.640 of vinyl. And uh, you know, so but it's yeah, 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:51.279 I I don't, to be honest, I don't. I don't 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:53.600 know what the percentages. Okay, So how do you decide 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:55.840 how much vinyl to produce? Well, I mean, you know, 0:35:55.880 --> 0:35:58.319 if it's an established artists, you know, we have a 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:02.160 track record of what they're gonna do and and um 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:08.719 and we also uh you know, we'll we'll also um 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:12.200 just you know, I don't. We just use our experience 0:36:12.200 --> 0:36:14.359 to try to you know, make the best guests we can. 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.080 I mean, so and most of the time I think 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.480 we get it fairly right, and sometimes we get it 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:20.560 wrong and we're playing catch up and and you know, 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:22.600 we but we just do the you know, the best 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.359 that we can. But for artists that have a history, um, 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:27.440 there's a pretty good you can you can you know, 0:36:27.800 --> 0:36:30.000 it's it's pretty easy to guess. And so and sometimes 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:32.759 we have acts that just you know, bust loose. I mean, 0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:36.480 I think about Tyler Childer's in his Purgatory record. I mean, 0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:39.000 you know we're over you know, that's a platinum record now, 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:42.600 and um, you know, it was like and that thing 0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:46.480 exploded quickly and we were playing catch up, like we 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:48.880 were just scrambling the whole you know, it felt like 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.040 the whole time just to keep up with the with 0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:53.719 the demand. And uh so, you know, we just do 0:36:53.840 --> 0:36:55.640 do the best that we can. But if it's if 0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:58.080 it's a new like like Kylie for instance, we'll probably 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:01.760 start off with like a reasonable amount, like a thousand 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:04.600 and and if we're if things explode, we're going to 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:06.880 be in the in the same situation like Tyler Childer's 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:08.839 and playing catch up. But you know, we just try 0:37:08.880 --> 0:37:11.120 to make the best decisions we can and honestly with 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:14.080 the you know, with a FIRMI on the artist, because 0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:16.480 if if we overshoot the mark and an artist is 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:20.160 paying Uh. You know, you know, we make a thousand 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:22.840 too many and they're sitting they're sitting in somebody's basement 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:24.439 and and you know, all of a sudden, they've spent 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:28.480 five or six thousand dollars. That isn't uh you know, 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.839 I mean five or six thousand dollars for an indie artist. 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:33.000 That can make a big difference. So we just we 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.160 just do the best that we can. Okay, But when 0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:38.040 you sell the retail, you sell it one way right correct, 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:40.880 can't come back no, Okay, So let's go back to 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:44.080 the timeline. You're we're working with an act. Hey, do 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:46.920 you advance him any money to make the record? Into 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.719 what degree do you get involved with scheduling with the act? 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:53.920 We do advance the money, I'd say almost all the time. 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:58.560 Um sometimes uh, sometimes they show up with a record 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:03.920 that's completely nished, and and you know when they do that, um, 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:05.760 you know, we'll we'll go through it like a profit 0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:08.000 loss estimate. We'll go through that with like the management 0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:12.600 team and sometimes the business manager, and and we'll put 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:14.399 all the cost inputs, like if you know we're gonna 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:16.640 hire this publicist, it's going to cost X. If we're 0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:19.360 going to press a certain amount of violence going to 0:38:19.440 --> 0:38:21.480 cost y and we just sort of add all that 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:25.120 up and UM, and so we try we try to 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.080 cover all the out of pocket costs that we can 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:31.600 so that it's it's I mean, honestly like we'll get 0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:34.080 we'll give the biggest advance that we can possibly give 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:36.520 without feeling like we're digging a hole that we can't 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.720 climb out of. Um. You're working on the thin margins 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:41.560 that we work on. You know, we just we have 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:43.680 to be you know, we just have to be a 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:47.880 little bit careful. But twenty years of doing this, you know, 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:51.120 I've got a pretty good barometer on on where those 0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:54.600 you know, how how to measure risk and um. And 0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:56.839 sometimes you know, we're we're not going to be able 0:38:56.840 --> 0:38:59.520 to cover all the costs and and if and if 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:02.400 we say like okay, well something's gonna call to do 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:05.840 the job right, it's gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars UM, 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:08.600 but we only feel comfortable with seventy five dollars worth 0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:11.040 of risk. If the act wants to own their work 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:12.959 and have this asset, they're going to have to figure 0:39:13.000 --> 0:39:17.080 out how to how to cover the remaining thousand dollars 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:19.880 worth of costs. So let's assume just to make the 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:23.719 numbers round, you advance a hundred k. Then the then 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:27.399 it goes, do you take the hundred k off the top? Yes, 0:39:27.880 --> 0:39:30.759 so you re earn the you know, you collect a 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:35.279 hundred k and then it's okay, it will go But 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:38.239 well hold on, let me clarify. One thing is that 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:41.200 you know with with our deal, that hundred thousand comes 0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:44.239 out of their seventy five. So we're we're earning from 0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:48.840 record one. Uh it's important. Yes, that's an important you 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:52.160 know distinction. So um, so that hundred thousand will come 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:55.160 out of their sevent and we will collect all of 0:39:55.200 --> 0:40:00.520 that before the split happens. However, remember that the artist 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:02.880 is collecting all the sound exchange money from both the 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:05.399 artists and label side from day one. We that never 0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:08.279 comes through us, you know, all anything that they want 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:10.560 to do if they want to come up with something 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.560 through their website and and you know, do some sort 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:15.319 of a special thing where they're going to sell two 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:17.560 thousand pieces of vinyl and it's going to be autographed 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.759 or whatever they get of that. So it's not like 0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:24.719 they have to recoup to start monetizing their you know, 0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:27.160 their record. But it's just we need to fill in 0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:32.120 the hole before split occurs. Okay, so we're gonna go. 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.799 Let's assume I come with a finished record, and let's 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:38.839 leave the vinyl part out of the equation. How much 0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:42.279 lead time do you want before release date? What do 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:46.480 you plan to do before release date? For the most part, 0:40:46.480 --> 0:40:50.040 we're scheduling probably no less than nine months and ideally 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:55.920 a year ahead of time. Um, you know partly you 0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:57.959 know this, you know, those are just the lead times 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.080 that we're working on and and and again there's always 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:04.719 exceptions to that rule. But that's that's you know, primarily 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.520 the thing. But but but you know, during that say 0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:11.560 nine months period, you know, we're encouraging the artists to 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:16.880 you know, work on you know, uh, you know, creating content. Um. 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:19.279 You know, the publicist is on on board. You know, 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:23.719 they're they're sort of seating the conversation. Um, you know 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:27.880 where uh, you know, the three months out, you know, 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:31.320 they may make the album announcement, they'll do a video premiere, 0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:34.520 you know, to to launch it. I mean, we're doing 0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:39.040 things to start the conversation before street date. You know, 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:42.440 the street date is is the the time. I mean 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:45.440 the press, the press journalists treat the album releases, the 0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:49.360 inciting events in the narrative and so um, so everything 0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:51.319 is leading up to that. But also we don't you know, 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:52.880 we don't. It's not going to work very well if 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:56.319 you just sort of like, you know, try to try 0:41:56.360 --> 0:42:00.160 to have a have a robust conversation about it without 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.880 of you know, helping lead people you know to it. 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:06.280 So so so we are doing work and very public 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:10.359 facing work with the whole team prior to the album 0:42:10.360 --> 0:42:12.160 coming out and the but the other thing too is 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:15.719 you know, we we're gonna be working with um, you know, 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:18.279 we're gonna be working with artists to try to help uh, 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:19.719 you know, get things. I'm gonna get into the team 0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:21.760 and like we're not doing anything like we were working 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:27.200 with another new artist named Drayton Farley. He's from Alabama. UM, 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:30.719 and uh again we were kind of the you know, 0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.040 probably the first one to the to the party there. 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:36.000 But you know, uh, you know, Brian Greenbaum and his 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:39.320 team at CIA or on board to book, Kyle Lenski manages, 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:42.960 Ryan Bingham came on to manage UM and you know, 0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:45.520 the album hasn't even been recorded. He's going to record 0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:48.960 with Sadler Baden who produced the Morgan Wade record and 0:42:49.080 --> 0:42:52.880 is in Jason Isbel's band, who's a great producer, and um, 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:56.120 they're recording in in May. And but Drayton has it 0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.279 record that's out on that he put out on his 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:00.640 own that we're not involved with. It's you know that's 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:03.840 out there, but um, you know, he's out there opening 0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:06.600 dates for Charlie Crockett. He's out there opening dates for 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:09.680 Willie Nelson like he's he's out there building an audience, 0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:11.799 and we're you know, having the conversation and you know, 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:14.560 but obviously c A is doing that, not us, but 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:16.200 but it's just part of the team. We're just built 0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:20.080 building uh awareness And by the time that record comes out, 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:23.400 hopefully a lot of people will have we'll know Drayton 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:25.600 will have seen him live. You know, they will have 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:28.759 already developed a relationship. The relationship won't be sort of 0:43:28.760 --> 0:43:39.920 brand new when the when the album streets. So there's sales, 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:45.560 it's part of distribution. There's marketing, and there's coordination. So 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:49.480 let's assume you have a reasonable team who is quarterbacking 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:54.720 like policeman of publicity and tour dates. Are you pretty 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:57.040 hands off on that? Are you saying, way, I'm coordinating 0:43:57.040 --> 0:43:59.120 all this and we gotta line everything up well when 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:02.080 it comes to touring. Uh. Yeah, we're not really involved 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:04.520 in that much in tour marketing. But you know, that's 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:06.560 one of the reasons why the agent is so important. 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:09.319 You know. Um, you know I think about like, you know, 0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:13.280 Drayton being with CIA. They've got a great tour marketing uh, 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:15.680 you know, effort and they're working with the promoters. It's 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:17.600 just you know, we'll do our part. You know, we 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:20.920 talked to the radio stations, so um, you know, if 0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:22.960 if Drayton is going to be in town in a 0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:25.799 particular town and we can start startup. I mean, he's 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:27.440 not at the point where anybody's probably gonna want to 0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:29.480 put him on the air to interview him because nobody 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:31.480 knows who he is. But you know, we can try 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:35.200 to do whatever we can do to help that. But 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:39.680 we're not taking responsibility for for tour marketing. It's just, 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:42.080 you know, we we need other teammates to do that, 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:45.200 which again was why working with a great agent is 0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:48.759 hugely important. And what about PR and the manager? How 0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:51.600 often are you in contact with them, you know, when 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:55.000 you have a hot project coming along the line. Oh often, 0:44:55.239 --> 0:45:00.160 I'm definitely very active because I'm the probably the if 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.360 narrative junkie, you know, when it comes to I, you know, 0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:05.440 it's it's important for for Lee and I to understand 0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:07.279 the story that's gonna be told. If we don't know 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:10.640 what the story is and why that how that six 0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:13.399 minute we can't hear the six minute morning Edition piece 0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:16.799 in our own heads, Um, then we're not necessarily going 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:19.520 to understand how to how to converse about this artist 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:23.520 work out in the world and so um, and it's 0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:27.400 it's you know, more important and I think appropriate for 0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:31.040 us to be the ones to try to if they 0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:33.920 don't already have a PR person on board, if you know, 0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:37.040 for us to try to help connect them with the 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.839 right people to be that credible advocate. Then um, I mean, 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:45.560 I'm I'm personally very involved in all the discussions that 0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:49.080 happen with PR because that's just a it's just a 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:52.400 found fundamental principle for me that you've got to get them, 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:55.120 you got you gotta get the storytelling right. Okay. So 0:45:55.640 --> 0:46:00.200 there's distribution in sales, there's radio, and there's marketing. What 0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:03.640 falls under the head of marketing. What does thirty Tigers 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:07.400 do well, you know, any any any number of things. 0:46:07.400 --> 0:46:10.400 I mean, we're we're will advise on on sort of 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:13.080 social media content, but we don't, um you know, we 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:16.240 feel like that's the artist's authentic voice, so we don't. 0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:20.040 I don't think it really works particularly well. Some labels 0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:23.520 will take over social media. Um, and sometimes artists want 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:26.640 to have other companies come in and and do that 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:29.400 and help them keep a consistent voice and a consistent 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:33.160 flow of communication. But we don't do that uh internally, 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.440 you know, like with the publicists. You know, there are 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:37.560 companies out there that help do that. We work with 0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:40.520 those companies, but that's kind of up to the artist 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:42.400 and their and their management as to whether or not 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:46.120 they want to do that or not. Um. You know, 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:52.759 we will put advertising plans together uh for um, you know, 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:56.040 for for you know, for you know, to will run 0:46:56.080 --> 0:46:58.600 Instagram campaigns and things like that. You know, kind of 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:02.279 the standard uh you know advertising. Plus you know, we're 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:05.120 just we're always uh you know, out out there looking 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:09.360 for um, you know, appropriate ways to to you know, 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:12.719 uh you know, make connections. Um, you know, we're not 0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:16.080 I'd say, like brand marketing isn't our you know, we're 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:18.560 not like super strong. We have relationships out there and 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:20.560 so you know, like we'll you know, do some things 0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:22.920 with Yettie from time to time and you know, and 0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:28.000 uh um and you know and that. But it's uh, 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.399 you know, we're we're we're you know, we we try 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:35.600 to help, uh, you know, manage the real you know, 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:37.880 like David Ogilvie, who's the kind of the dean of 0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:40.000 modern advertising, he was like the you know, one of 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:41.839 the founders of Ogilvie and Matther. He used to argue 0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:46.800 that it takes seven impressions before you make the you know, 0:47:46.880 --> 0:47:49.120 anybody knows what it is that you're talking about, and 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:52.560 so we look at editorial, you know, like editorial in 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:55.040 our minds has to be one through four. If you're 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:58.839 advertising something and nobody knows what it is, then they're 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:00.280 not going to buy it. I mean I think about 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:03.000 you know, I drive around Nashville, and you know, I 0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:05.680 see some poor act who thinks that like buying a 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:08.360 billboard on Broadway is going to be there like that 0:48:08.480 --> 0:48:11.640 somehow that's gonna matter. But if like you've never heard 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:13.759 of that person, you don't know what that you know, 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:15.839 who that is, You're not going to go you know 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.680 by their record. You know, it has to be editorially driven. 0:48:18.719 --> 0:48:22.239 So my dictate to my staff is, you know, impressions 0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:26.239 one through four half to be um editorially driven. Five 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:28.640 through seven have to be you know that then that 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:32.560 can be advertising. And we try really hard to UM 0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:35.600 got talking about NPR a lot, but you know, you know, 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:39.200 you just use these as shortcause I try to encourage 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:42.040 my staff to think about sort of how people live 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:45.000 and how they consume. And like, you know, I talk 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:48.080 about like somebody driving to to work and hearing that 0:48:48.160 --> 0:48:51.759 morning edition piece and you know, you think about their day. 0:48:51.920 --> 0:48:54.320 You know, they hear it on their way to work. 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:56.040 Then they get to work. They've got a bunch of 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:58.719 ship going on at work. Uh, they come home at 0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:00.880 the end of the day, you know, they have dinner 0:49:00.920 --> 0:49:04.200 with their family, they might watch some TV shows, and 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:06.920 that thing that they heard that moved them, you know 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.920 in the morning is a is a is a bit 0:49:09.960 --> 0:49:12.239 of a distant memory. So it's important for us to 0:49:13.120 --> 0:49:16.359 through targeting advertising. Uh, you know, like if if we 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.879 can you know, have a uh an ad in their 0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:22.920 Facebook feed to say like, you know, you know, when 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:26.040 we try to target like in that instance, uh, self 0:49:26.080 --> 0:49:28.960 identified NPR you know, fans and all that kind of stuff. 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:31.760 So if we can have something hit their Facebook feed 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.879 to say like, hey, artist X, you know you you 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:37.440 heard the you know, you know, like you heard the 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:40.399 Sturgil Simpson thing, or you know earlier in the day, 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:42.520 click here to hear the thing, or click here to 0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.919 buy the record, whatever the messaging is. What we're trying 0:49:45.920 --> 0:49:49.719 to do is build those seven impressions, but really try 0:49:49.760 --> 0:49:53.680 to work with with the acts budget and spend their 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:58.120 money smart so that we're reinforcing editorially driven impressions. Okay, 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:01.640 let's just talk about advertising, talk about the mix with 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:06.759 print radio online and explain how you do online. I mean, 0:50:06.920 --> 0:50:13.880 we don't do exclusively online, uh, but that's probably percent 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:15.759 of it. I mean we you know, if we do 0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:18.880 uh you know, if we do things like I I 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:21.359 you know, listen to the episode that you did with 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:23.680 you know, Michael Rappino and you know he talked about that. 0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:26.480 It's just it's it's there's certain acts that we're it's 0:50:26.560 --> 0:50:28.800 kind of appropriate, but for the most part, you can 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:34.680 target so succinctly. UM. Online where is is those other 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:37.960 mediums are a little bit scatter shot. But um, but 0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:40.560 you know, but but again the artists like we worked 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:43.040 with Charlie Crockett and one thing that Charlie and it's 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:45.400 hard with the success he's having, it's hard to argue 0:50:45.400 --> 0:50:48.920 against that. But he places a lot of um, a 0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:51.719 lot of emphasis on on outdoor like billboards, you know, 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:55.799 he does in key markets and you know, and um 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:58.920 and so we you know, we uh we carry that 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:01.320 forth for him, and and and again hard to argue 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:04.800 with the with the results, you know. And uh so 0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:09.719 but I'd say what we do is online because of 0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:11.560 the same thing that you know that he was talking 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:15.360 about before, the the ability to target is more efficient. Okay, 0:51:15.400 --> 0:51:18.000 So how do you decide what's a reasonable spending? Where 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:21.799 do you spend it? Well, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Uh, 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:23.000 you know, I mean, I think a lot of the 0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:25.920 same places that people spend. I mean, we we have 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.640 a two person team who does all that and and 0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:32.719 uh this, uh you know, our guy who oversees that. 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:34.719 His name is Garrett Carty and he came out of 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:39.799 uh Corporate America and uh you know he's he's he's 0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:42.200 got a much better sense of that, uh, you know 0:51:42.200 --> 0:51:44.200 than I do. You know, honestly, like we we just 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:46.839 depend on him. I mean, you know, they look at 0:51:47.600 --> 0:51:50.120 you know, they'll run ads, they'll they'll monitor how they're 0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:53.440 how they're working or not working. If something's not connecting, well, 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:56.280 you know, will ramp it down, maybe change our messaging 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:58.400 or change our approach. But you know, I think you know, 0:51:58.440 --> 0:52:00.320 we just used this. You know, we go we're people 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:04.480 are so you know Instagram, Facebook, you know, etcetera, and 0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:07.120 and uh, you know we're not you know, and you 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:10.279 know and occasionally, uh, you know the things like we're 0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:13.040 a lot of our acts aren't necessarily like you know, 0:52:13.680 --> 0:52:18.800 TikTok uh you know, uh, you know, artists, but um, 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:21.200 you know, but we'll look at it at any medium 0:52:21.200 --> 0:52:24.520 that we think is um is appropriateing. But Garrett Is 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:27.719 is definitely our maestro when it comes to that. He'll 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:29.799 he'll know what a lot more about it than than 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:32.279 I do. So I depend on my staff to do. 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:37.480 Let's let's switch to radio. Major labels putting out fewer acts, 0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:41.920 fewer records than ever before. They tend to promote everything 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:44.960 they go in. Let's say, with five records, they don't 0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:47.799 say this is great. You want to play this this 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.480 one You'll never play it. So, you know, there's issues 0:52:50.520 --> 0:52:54.120 of credibility. To what degree do you work radio for 0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:56.720 your acts and how do you do it? Well? Um, 0:52:57.280 --> 0:53:01.760 we have to to very see eas and great radio 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:07.080 promotion people. Um. Uh Lindsay Reid, who uh is our 0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:11.680 person who does triple A an Americana. Um, great promotion 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:16.400 person one you know at the at the Bowlder conference. Uh. 0:53:16.480 --> 0:53:19.319 You know two years ago he won Promotion Person Indie 0:53:19.320 --> 0:53:22.320 Promotion Person of the Year. Last year we won Indie label. 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:26.400 It was you know, because of his work um uh 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:29.360 and his advocacy for our our artists. Um. In addition 0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:31.920 to the quality of work our artists are producing, of course. 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:34.960 But um, you know, we we place a lot of 0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:38.240 importance on on that. I mean, you know, it's uh, 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.520 um you know, I you know, I tend to you know, 0:53:41.680 --> 0:53:45.600 like I'll go to the noncom conference in Philadelphia and 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:48.120 you know, shake hands and slapbacks and and try to 0:53:48.120 --> 0:53:52.080 build relationships to show those you know, promotion people. First 0:53:52.080 --> 0:53:54.200 of all, it's you know, I like these people, and 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:57.520 and and secondly, you know, if if I'm showing up, 0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:00.399 it shows that we you know, really care about their 0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:04.360 contributions to you know, to to you know, uh, you know, 0:54:04.400 --> 0:54:07.840 to what they're doing. And uh we uh recently brought 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:10.520 on Mike di Pippa, who was a season guy who 0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:13.879 was a senior VP uh for like rock and alternative 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:17.000 at um at At Island f JAM and then he 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:21.360 was with Republican Elector before that, and you know, he's 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:25.799 great in those genres and and so if if you know, 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:30.080 in Mike's world, it takes probably more of a team, lindsay, 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:34.239 I mean, we'll bring on maybe an independent. Maybe we 0:54:34.320 --> 0:54:37.400 won't in the Triple A and Americana world, but for 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:40.680 you know, if we're taking something to uh either rock 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:43.920 or alternative, we'll you know, need to tap into you know, 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:47.680 to teams. So we'll either add independence a lot of 0:54:47.680 --> 0:54:51.160 times will work with the Orchards in house team that's 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:55.360 under Danny Bush. Really it just depends on record by record. 0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:57.000 But we you know, we have ways if we need 0:54:57.040 --> 0:54:58.920 a team, we have ways to access a team. If 0:54:58.920 --> 0:55:01.799 we uh don't need to spend an artist money on 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:03.880 on a team that and we can handle it internally, 0:55:03.920 --> 0:55:07.720 then we handle it internally. But but but we we radios, 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.239 I mean you know, radio is hugely important. Are there 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:13.560 some records you put out where you don't go to radio? Yeah? Well, 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:18.560 I you know, I think no, I mean I can't well, 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:21.160 I can't think of any uh. I mean it feels 0:55:21.200 --> 0:55:23.359 like they're there, you know there there there must be, 0:55:23.440 --> 0:55:28.040 but I feel like, um, you know, even projects that like, 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:29.960 I mean we you know, I'll go to Folk Alliance 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:31.520 every year. You know, we have we you know, we 0:55:31.560 --> 0:55:35.239 have projects that um, you know that are are but 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:37.400 you know, and I'll go to the Folk DJ Reception 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:39.680 and all that kind of stuff. And and Lindsay works 0:55:39.719 --> 0:55:41.399 you know that market too. So you know, I think 0:55:41.640 --> 0:55:44.080 there's for almost all that I can't think of an 0:55:44.080 --> 0:55:47.000 act that doesn't fit somewhere at radio. It's just a 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:49.800 matter of you know, is it a big commercial format 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:52.200 or is it more of a niche thing like uh, 0:55:52.239 --> 0:55:55.000 you know, like uh, you know the folk panel. Um. 0:55:55.200 --> 0:55:59.920 But you know, if if if there's any relevance anywhere, 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:02.520 we try to make sure that we come up with 0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:05.799 a plan to you know, to introduce that music and 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:09.000 advocate for our artists. Um. And and also there's certain 0:56:09.000 --> 0:56:13.680 types of music like you'll not see any straight pop 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:16.360 acts you know on our roster. I mean, we're starting 0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:18.279 to sort of creep creep into that a little bit, 0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.040 but just you know, but heretofore, you know, not yet. 0:56:21.080 --> 0:56:23.400 It's really might with Might pivot being on board, it 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:25.320 feels like we can we can now we have somebody 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:28.920 who knows how that is done, and so you know, 0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:31.200 so we might sort of creep into that, but heretofore, 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:34.000 you know, we we haven't done that because we just 0:56:34.040 --> 0:56:37.080 didn't have the relationships and the knowledge about how all 0:56:37.080 --> 0:56:38.840 that worked and where all the bodies are baring. You know, 0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:40.800 it's just like you've got to have somebody who can 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:44.239 who can deliver a roadmap. So if if you know, 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:46.920 even though if there's a style of music where it 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:51.359 depends on radio and we're just not uh the right, 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:53.680 if it's like we don't know how to how to 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:55.400 connect the dots, that we're not going to take it on. 0:56:55.440 --> 0:56:58.359 We're not doing anybody any favors if we're you know, 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:01.400 sucking their ship up. So let's pull the lens back. 0:57:01.760 --> 0:57:04.560 What moves the needle? What we do know certainly since 0:57:04.600 --> 0:57:06.920 the internet error, will just call it the year two thousand. 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:10.359 Everything shifted used to be you wanted on beyond late 0:57:10.440 --> 0:57:14.680 night TV. It worked now people say basically s n 0:57:14.920 --> 0:57:20.120 L and CBS Sunday Morning, And of course radio is 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:23.800 less of the pie than it used to be. And 0:57:23.880 --> 0:57:26.840 of course we have online. We even have some print 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:30.920 in terms of stories we established earlier. You want seven impressions, 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:35.520 but really, what's the hierarchy of power and what really works? 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:38.640 You know? I think you know the things that you 0:57:38.640 --> 0:57:40.280 you know, talked about. I mean, you know, we've been 0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:43.840 lucky enough to have people on CBS Sunday Morning. Uh, 0:57:43.880 --> 0:57:46.880 you know, we've had uh you know, like like Anthony 0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:49.640 Mason is a big fan of the type of music 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:51.640 that we do a lot, and even when they don't 0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:54.680 show up on CBS Sunday Morning, he'll have them on 0:57:54.720 --> 0:57:57.960 CBS This Morning or CBS Saturday Morning. And you know 0:57:58.080 --> 0:58:01.720 that has an impact. Um, you know it's but before 0:58:01.720 --> 0:58:05.320 you go beyond that, does any other TV have an impact? 0:58:05.640 --> 0:58:07.120 Do you say, oh, I want to get you on 0:58:07.280 --> 0:58:10.480 Fallon and Kimmel or do you say that's just not 0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:13.000 moving the needle? Now? You know, I mean honestly, if 0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.720 if if, if you never know, I mean sometimes artists 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:19.240 go on there and you don't really see much of 0:58:19.240 --> 0:58:21.480 an impact. But this wasn't our record. But I think 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:25.480 about Nathaniel rate Lift and his fallon performance that lit 0:58:25.520 --> 0:58:27.880 the fuse for everything that's happened with that guy, and 0:58:27.920 --> 0:58:31.360 deservely so. He's an awesome artist. But you just never know, 0:58:31.520 --> 0:58:33.320 I mean, you must be present to win, you know. 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:35.440 It's like if somebody wants to help you tell the story. 0:58:35.600 --> 0:58:37.720 And and again you have to, you know, weigh the 0:58:37.760 --> 0:58:40.320 cost of everything. It's not an inexpensive thing to get 0:58:40.360 --> 0:58:42.840 an artist in their band out there um to be 0:58:42.920 --> 0:58:45.040 able to do that stuff. But you know, I think 0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:46.800 if you believe in your artist and you believe in 0:58:46.800 --> 0:58:50.120 the music, you know, you hope that something happens like 0:58:50.200 --> 0:58:52.640 happens with Nathaniel rate Lift, you know, because you believe 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:55.080 in the story that you're telling, and you know so 0:58:55.120 --> 0:58:59.200 we will will never pull up short in in those opportunities, 0:58:59.360 --> 0:59:01.600 you know. And and again, I think it just has 0:59:01.640 --> 0:59:04.560 to do with the diffusion of media. Um, there's just 0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:06.800 more places to be seen and heard, so therefore there's 0:59:06.840 --> 0:59:11.520 less eyeballs on any particular medium. And but you know, 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:15.880 it's just it's such a you know, it is such 0:59:15.920 --> 0:59:20.160 a crowded marketplace. To try to uh make an impact 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:22.720 that if if Jimmy Kimmel wants to put one of 0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:25.120 our artists on, We're gonna show up and we'll write 0:59:25.160 --> 0:59:27.640 the check to make sure that that happens. And you 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:31.560 just never know and so uh so we we we will, 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:34.240 you know. I mean, I'm yeah, I'm a big proponent 0:59:34.280 --> 0:59:37.800 of like must be present to win. So uh you know, Okay, 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:40.360 what about print, I'm not I'm telling about print editorial 0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:42.960 to what degree is that? I mean hugely important? Fifty 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:45.040 years ago it was everything, but what is it today? 0:59:45.520 --> 0:59:48.680 It's it's it's hugely important. But I'd say I differentiate 0:59:48.760 --> 0:59:52.880 between um, long form narrative and just sort of like 0:59:52.960 --> 0:59:56.440 you know, reviews. I I again, you know, thinking about 0:59:58.080 --> 1:00:01.200 the revelation of the artist and who they are, uh 1:00:01.840 --> 1:00:04.480 and and why their art flows from them, as though 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.000 inevitable that the explanation of that really only happens in 1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:12.800 long form narrative pieces, and so um hard to do 1:00:13.000 --> 1:00:15.160 on the third page of the album reviews. You know, 1:00:15.200 --> 1:00:17.640 not that we don't love getting our albums reviewed and 1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:20.400 all that, but you know, so we really try to 1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:24.280 uh you know, dig in and and and of course 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:26.400 that's primarily on the on the publicist, but we try 1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:30.320 to really that's what we we what we absolutely hope 1:00:30.360 --> 1:00:32.800 for and and it can have a huge impact. I mean, 1:00:33.280 --> 1:00:35.880 I think like of a print piece like Jason Isbell 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:40.080 when the Southeastern record came out, we we uh that 1:00:40.120 --> 1:00:44.320 record came out I think on June eleven, and I 1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:46.760 think it was back when we had Tuesday Street Days 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:52.440 and on the June two Sunday New York Times. I 1:00:52.440 --> 1:00:54.480 think it was Dwite Gardner that wrote the piece. But 1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:58.040 like that peace was the thing that let the fuse 1:00:58.200 --> 1:01:01.040 because it told the story so viewed of flee and 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:03.960 believe me, the you know, the everybody on the team, 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:07.360 the publicists, you know, shared that New York Times Sunday 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:09.920 piece with everybody else. And then we got Terry Gross 1:01:09.920 --> 1:01:12.120 and then we got you know, because it was just 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:16.080 such an important, uh and beautiful piece explaining where this 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:19.160 music came from. That you know, we we definitely look 1:01:19.240 --> 1:01:22.360 for those kinds of opportunities and again some will have 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:24.640 more impact. You know, The New York Times Sunday magazine 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:27.520 doesn't do many music pieces, you know, so when we 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:29.160 get when we get one like that, it can it 1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:31.000 can really be a you know, like I said, that's 1:01:31.000 --> 1:01:33.120 the kind of thing that lights the fuse. So we 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:35.720 you know, look, we just want to work hard and 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:38.040 if anybody wants to help us tell the story, we 1:01:38.120 --> 1:01:40.280 welcome it. And you know, we don't you know. And 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:42.880 again there's when it gets to the point of like, Okay, 1:01:42.880 --> 1:01:44.520 well we've got a kind of wigh out what it 1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:48.120 is that we're spending in order to get those impressions. 1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:52.720 But um, you know that's a consideration. But you know, 1:01:52.760 --> 1:01:54.240 we we just want to work as hard as we 1:01:54.280 --> 1:01:58.400 can to help people understand the magic with the artists 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:01.160 that we work with in and we don't bring anybody 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:03.600 in unless we think that there's magic there. And so 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:05.320 we just don't want to leave anything on the table. 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:10.280 What is your different and attitude towards satellite radio versus 1:02:10.360 --> 1:02:14.200 terrestaural radio. Obviously you want to play on on everything, 1:02:14.240 --> 1:02:17.720 but how important is satellite and how is it visa 1:02:17.800 --> 1:02:21.240 v ter restaurant? Um, honestly, I think they're I think 1:02:21.240 --> 1:02:23.640 they're equally important. I really do. I mean, if if 1:02:23.680 --> 1:02:29.280 you're a satellite radio uh subscriber, like you know, it's 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:32.680 important enough for you that you're paying a subscription every 1:02:32.720 --> 1:02:36.240 month to be able to listen to Outlaw Country or 1:02:36.280 --> 1:02:39.200 Willie's Roadhouse or you know or whatever. I mean. You know, 1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:43.920 satellite allows a sort of a finer gradation of of 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:47.840 of of choices, and and it's a it's a great Um, 1:02:47.880 --> 1:02:52.320 it's a great asset. But you know, um, but terrestrial radio, 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:56.160 you know, it's also hugely important. You know, you know, 1:02:56.240 --> 1:02:59.720 the the you know here in Nashville. Um, each of 1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:02.880 these you know, terrestrial radio stations has their own constituency. 1:03:03.040 --> 1:03:05.680 W h you know x NP, which is you know, 1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:10.000 kind of our equivalent of like a w XPN or 1:03:10.000 --> 1:03:12.840 a k c r W has their constituency. Lightning one 1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:16.240 hundred has their constituency. The country stations have their constituency, 1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:19.760 and and so, um, you know, it's like it's all 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:21.880 it's all important. I mean, I don't. We don't really 1:03:21.920 --> 1:03:24.520 prior prioritize. We tried. We just tried. If it can, 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:26.040 if we feel like it can fit on the station, 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:28.600 we're gonna show up and explain why we think our 1:03:28.720 --> 1:03:30.840 artist is special, and we're going to ask for their support. 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:32.680 And we may get it, we may not get it, 1:03:32.720 --> 1:03:35.360 but we're going to show up and ask. So Okay, 1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:37.880 let's go to the third leg of the model, which 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:40.960 is distribution. Where the rubber meets the road. That's where 1:03:40.960 --> 1:03:44.200 the transaction is. If the transaction that doesn't happen, thirty 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:48.080 tigers doesn't make any money. Correct. So breakdown how you 1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:53.400 viewed distribution today the varying avenues. You know, we we obviously, 1:03:53.480 --> 1:03:58.440 streaming is hugely important. As you know, I've been a 1:03:58.480 --> 1:04:03.360 big advocate it and defender of the streaming uh you 1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:06.880 know model, and I and I uh, you know, I 1:04:06.920 --> 1:04:10.120 don't uh you know, and even people that argue, well, 1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:12.200 streaming as a means to an end, I'm like, nope, 1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:16.080 it is, you know, it is an end unto itself. Um. 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:20.520 But you know, we we also place again having one 1:04:20.560 --> 1:04:23.080 person who does nothing in this company, who does nothing 1:04:23.080 --> 1:04:26.480 but communicate with indie retail stores. And I explained earlier 1:04:26.480 --> 1:04:29.680 why we place an inordinate amount of importance on that 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:35.440 because of the dissemination of the narrative. Um. I mean 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:38.440 it's just you know, you know, it's all it's all 1:04:38.480 --> 1:04:40.560 important to us, and and you know, and people are 1:04:41.040 --> 1:04:43.000 you know, even like c d S people are kind 1:04:43.000 --> 1:04:44.640 of like, you know, or do we even need to 1:04:44.640 --> 1:04:47.840 make CDs anymore. And I'm like, yes, if ten percent, 1:04:47.880 --> 1:04:51.520 if even ten percent of your audience chooses to to 1:04:51.680 --> 1:04:54.840 consume your music that way, and you don't make it 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:58.360 available to them, uh, you're basically telling them you don't 1:04:58.360 --> 1:05:02.840 care about their you know, about their business. And so 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:07.160 you know it. You have to manage inventory and uh 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:10.960 and and you know, put appropriate um, you know, spend 1:05:11.000 --> 1:05:12.920 appropriate amounts of money and all that stuff. But but 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:14.560 it's all important to is. I look at it like 1:05:14.640 --> 1:05:18.960 a customer service issue. If somebody gets inspired to uh 1:05:19.160 --> 1:05:22.240 consume your artists, then you better have music there the 1:05:22.280 --> 1:05:24.120 way that they want it. And you know, and we 1:05:24.600 --> 1:05:27.000 you know, work with our our friends at the Orchard, 1:05:27.120 --> 1:05:30.480 and I do mean friends, Uh just there. I just 1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:32.800 you know, I can't you want wind me up. And 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:35.320 I'll talk all day long about all the ways in 1:05:35.320 --> 1:05:38.320 which they've been an incredible partner for us. But you know, 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:41.120 we work with them, uh you know, six ways to 1:05:41.200 --> 1:05:45.320 Sunday to make sure that wherever our artists music can 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:47.800 and should be that that we're getting the you know 1:05:47.880 --> 1:05:51.600 that we're there and um and on the streaming side, 1:05:51.800 --> 1:05:55.600 you know, we definitely have you know, the Orchard definitely 1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:59.960 does their part, but we also build our own relationship 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:02.640 its uh and and work you know. Just you know 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:05.360 my background as a as a label regional, you know, 1:06:05.400 --> 1:06:08.320 I used to I mean, it was the salesman's rep 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:11.360 to go to go take the order, uh and to 1:06:11.440 --> 1:06:13.400 do that. But but my job was to come in 1:06:13.440 --> 1:06:16.600 and paint with with finer detail on you know, what 1:06:16.640 --> 1:06:18.760 was the actor mean that the artist you know, or 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:22.960 any particular record. Um, you know, the salesman couldn't keep 1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:26.280 all the specificity about what was going on with this 1:06:26.360 --> 1:06:29.920 record because he's selling a million here, shearre selling like 1:06:29.960 --> 1:06:32.880 a million records and I'm selling a small handful of records. 1:06:32.920 --> 1:06:35.800 So it's my job to paint in finer detail and 1:06:35.800 --> 1:06:38.240 to understand with the account what needs to be said 1:06:38.280 --> 1:06:42.440 to them too that's relevant to them, and and to 1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:45.080 help get the right outcome, to get the right order. 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:47.600 Well that's you know, that's what we do with the DSPs. 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:50.800 And I charged my you know, staff, I tell him like, look, 1:06:51.280 --> 1:06:54.120 at some point, no matter how great the orchard is, um, 1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:56.040 you know, at some point because the volume of what 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:59.840 they are charged with with handling, our number one priority 1:06:59.840 --> 1:07:02.480 may be their number six priority. And by the time 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:06.200 the number six priority gets talked about. Um, probably the 1:07:06.240 --> 1:07:08.439 person who is on the other side of the table 1:07:08.520 --> 1:07:10.840 is going dead inside a little bit. So it's important 1:07:11.160 --> 1:07:15.000 that we have that relationship so that we can you know, 1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:17.880 we can articulate why our number one priority is our 1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:20.760 number one priority, you know. So, um, so we we 1:07:20.840 --> 1:07:23.600 work with this region much much as you know people 1:07:23.640 --> 1:07:25.720 have in the past. It's you know, it's our job 1:07:25.800 --> 1:07:29.880 to have the relationships and pain and finder detail about 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:40.240 our artists. Traditionally, well, if you look over the last 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:45.840 ten years, hip hop and young pop has moved technologically forward. 1:07:45.960 --> 1:07:51.240 First they embrace streaming. Let's leave vinyl out because there 1:07:51.240 --> 1:07:54.440 are people who buy as souvenirs, people who buy the listen. 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:58.800 It's a business unto itself. The audience that you tend 1:07:58.840 --> 1:08:04.080 to sell to is not children, not teenagers, but people 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:08.240 who are older thinking people. Traditionally, I mean, in the 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:11.360 last ten years, they have been the last to adopt 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:15.200 new technologies. Do you find I mean, so, if you 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:18.240 look at it, rock in general is the worst. If 1:08:18.280 --> 1:08:20.519 for no other reason, the acts keeps saying streaming is 1:08:20.520 --> 1:08:23.960 the devil. Okay, So first we had hip hop and 1:08:24.000 --> 1:08:28.640 then ironically country moved in. So to what degree have 1:08:28.880 --> 1:08:32.840 you seen the mixed change from physical to streaming and 1:08:32.880 --> 1:08:35.640 then they're streaming? And to what degree does your do 1:08:35.720 --> 1:08:41.400 your acts had a sales file business? Well again, you know, 1:08:41.439 --> 1:08:45.120 I feel like, uh, we just try to push on 1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:48.040 every front that we can. I mean, you know, to 1:08:48.080 --> 1:08:50.200 take like no, no, no no, no, no, you're gonna do 1:08:50.240 --> 1:08:53.120 all that work. I'm asking. I'm pulling back saying in 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:56.120 terms of a trend, what do you see as the 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:59.640 trends and if you've seen movement since you've been doing it, 1:08:59.720 --> 1:09:02.640 or go back. I mean a little bit of progress, 1:09:02.760 --> 1:09:04.479 you know. But I mean I look at you know, 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:06.120 like you had Ricky Lee Jones on you know a 1:09:06.120 --> 1:09:08.439 few weeks ago, who we are very honored to work 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:13.920 with and and you know, like her, her audience is 1:09:13.920 --> 1:09:16.320 is going to probably be some of the last people 1:09:16.439 --> 1:09:20.160 to adopt, you know, new technologies. And but you know, 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:23.000 I mean it's happening. And I think the streaming services 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:27.400 are are are trying to you know, build communication. It's 1:09:27.400 --> 1:09:29.240 just part of the It's I think it's just part 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:34.520 of the natural arc of how technologies are adopted. And um, 1:09:34.560 --> 1:09:37.680 you know, younger people are more comfortable with new technologies, 1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:41.040 you know, than the older people. And I don't think 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:43.799 that there's much that we can do to alter that trend. 1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:45.960 And I know you're not asking what we're doing to 1:09:46.000 --> 1:09:49.840 alter that trend, but um, you know, it's you know, 1:09:49.960 --> 1:09:52.000 I think it's getting a little better, but it's not 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:57.160 getting like, it's not getting better very quickly. So let's 1:09:57.200 --> 1:10:00.920 break down what percentage of revenues. We'll put vinyl in 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:04.920 the mix. Okay, where is the money? Obviously is a 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:09.559 huge markup on vinyl, uh, and you know there are 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:12.560 very few costs on digital. But in terms at the 1:10:12.680 --> 1:10:14.560 end of the day, when you look at your spreadsheet, 1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:18.280 where is the money being generated? Well, for us, about 1:10:19.400 --> 1:10:23.080 of the business is streaming. Well, i'd say digital because 1:10:23.240 --> 1:10:25.519 you know, we when we you know, get our you know, 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:27.920 when we have all of our breakdowns, like Apple is 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:31.080 includes the downloads. But you know, let's face it, the 1:10:31.080 --> 1:10:34.759 majority of the money even from Apple is definitely in 1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:38.080 Apple Music and not you know, on iTunes and the downloading. 1:10:38.120 --> 1:10:42.840 So about of our sales are are come from the 1:10:42.880 --> 1:10:48.759 digital side and then comes from from physical and uh. 1:10:49.000 --> 1:10:53.240 But on the commercial country label, um that you know, 1:10:53.280 --> 1:10:57.120 we we partner you know also are a partner in 1:10:57.200 --> 1:11:01.800 a joint venture commercial country label is uh you know 1:11:01.840 --> 1:11:05.799 with Sony of that number is is the streaming number 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:08.000 or the digital number is appreciably higher? You know, it's 1:11:08.040 --> 1:11:12.519 probably like and the only reason why it might even 1:11:12.560 --> 1:11:14.960 be ninety ten is because we work with Scotty McCrary 1:11:15.200 --> 1:11:18.000 and he has a lot of fans who are you know, 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:21.760 still by CDs and things like that. So but like 1:11:21.840 --> 1:11:25.360 Russell Dickerson, who's another one of our artists, is probably 1:11:27.160 --> 1:11:31.160 nineties six, four five or something like that. So it's 1:11:31.200 --> 1:11:35.880 it's um but but but for thirty tigers about these 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:40.360 are astounding numbers in terms of what the average person thinks. Hey, 1:11:40.560 --> 1:11:44.599 the acts you work with, are they savvy to streaming 1:11:44.760 --> 1:11:46.840 or do you have to educate all of them? It's 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:49.479 a mixed bag. I mean, we definitely have, you know, artists. 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:51.080 But that's one of the reasons why I try to 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:56.720 be so public about my uh, you know, these conversations, 1:11:56.920 --> 1:11:59.200 and you know, not just for our artists, but you know, 1:11:59.320 --> 1:12:03.200 all artists. I mean I think that you know, I 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:07.040 think it's it's just important to it's it can be 1:12:07.080 --> 1:12:10.599 a very complex issue and and and it's just it's 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:14.679 it's just, um, it's not as simple as Spotify good 1:12:14.840 --> 1:12:18.280 or Spotify bad. You know, it's you know, you know, 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:23.000 the revenue streams can um. You know, people want to 1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:25.920 simplify things to an incredible degree. Like I know, one 1:12:25.960 --> 1:12:28.320 of the you know, kind of talking points that people 1:12:28.400 --> 1:12:31.280 that are have tend to be suspicious as streaming have 1:12:31.439 --> 1:12:33.120 used a lot. I see it on Twitter a lot. 1:12:33.200 --> 1:12:36.439 But you know, like only thirteen thousand artists earn you know, 1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:40.479 fifteen fifty thou dollars a year or more on Spotify. 1:12:40.600 --> 1:12:44.320 And I'm like, well, yes, but you know, okay, so 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:48.280 be it. But but you know, for us, at least Spotify, 1:12:48.520 --> 1:12:51.800 just of what comes through the distribution channels, Spotify themselves 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:55.160 is less than thirty pc of our business. And so 1:12:56.240 --> 1:13:01.439 if you uh, and and given that they are h having, 1:13:01.720 --> 1:13:04.400 you know, they are able to sell their own product 1:13:04.479 --> 1:13:05.840 when it comes to D to C and on a 1:13:05.920 --> 1:13:09.080 road sales, Spotify probably in terms of their overall revenue mixes. 1:13:11.080 --> 1:13:15.040 So let's say, so then you're talking about an artist 1:13:15.080 --> 1:13:18.559 if if if the thirteen thousand artist is making the 1:13:18.560 --> 1:13:23.519 most successful artists on Spotify, uh is making fifty thou 1:13:23.760 --> 1:13:27.280 dollars I mean, you know, at least by our by 1:13:27.280 --> 1:13:29.759 our metrics, that's an artist who's earning two hundred thousand 1:13:29.800 --> 1:13:35.000 dollars from just from the prerecorded stuff. That doesn't include 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:37.760 publishing revenue, that doesn't include what they make on the road, 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:40.479 that doesn't include T shirts that they're selling. And so 1:13:40.520 --> 1:13:45.639 I think sometimes people cherry pick these, you know, these facts, 1:13:45.680 --> 1:13:47.559 and they put them out there and they don't really 1:13:47.560 --> 1:13:51.120 dig in and think about them contextually, and so and 1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:54.960 and and and I think it's destructive because and again, 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:58.240 like I'll also recognize too that there's certain types of 1:13:58.280 --> 1:14:03.519 genres where, um, where the proportion of streaming is much 1:14:03.600 --> 1:14:06.160 higher than than than it is for ours. But I'm 1:14:06.200 --> 1:14:10.280 just using our experience as an example of how you 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:12.320 can try to make an argument that sounds bad, but 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:14.360 when you look at it in context and you take 1:14:14.400 --> 1:14:18.599 the time to explain, you know, you know, it sort 1:14:18.600 --> 1:14:21.240 of explained what that really means, then then it doesn't 1:14:21.479 --> 1:14:24.000 it's not so bad, and and or it's not as bad. 1:14:24.080 --> 1:14:26.200 But having said that, I don't want to diminish the 1:14:26.240 --> 1:14:30.519 experience of artists who are you know, the hundred and 1:14:30.560 --> 1:14:34.800 thirties thousand's most successful, hardest on Spotify because they're having 1:14:34.840 --> 1:14:37.799 a hard time making a living. And and and honestly 1:14:37.840 --> 1:14:40.400 one of the reasons why I try to be so 1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:45.040 public in my and again, you know, I'm not holy. 1:14:45.960 --> 1:14:48.160 I don't think Spotify is like a you know, a 1:14:48.240 --> 1:14:50.960 hundred percent perfect or anything like that. You know, as 1:14:51.000 --> 1:14:55.360 a liberal, I feel uncomfortable quoting Ronald Reagan, but he, uh, 1:14:55.400 --> 1:14:58.559 you know, said something very wise. If you if you 1:14:58.600 --> 1:15:01.679 agree with somebody of the time, uh, they're a friend 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:06.120 and an ally, not a trader. And and uh, you know, 1:15:06.160 --> 1:15:10.400 I I feel like the conversation around this tends to 1:15:10.479 --> 1:15:14.120 get so polarized that the the you know, the nuance 1:15:14.160 --> 1:15:16.479 and the facts and the and the perspectives in the 1:15:16.640 --> 1:15:21.479 in the context gets completely lost. And it's a complex business, 1:15:21.720 --> 1:15:23.960 you know, you and if you're not a student of 1:15:24.000 --> 1:15:25.720 the game and you don't understand what's gonna go on, 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:30.000 you're gonna make some bad decisions. And independent artists those 1:15:30.080 --> 1:15:35.280 Spotify has democratized access and allowed a multitude of artists 1:15:35.320 --> 1:15:38.839 to to to actually have a legitimate shot without asking 1:15:38.920 --> 1:15:44.040 anybody's permission to participate. If if they get despondent and 1:15:44.080 --> 1:15:47.280 give up because they feel like they can't possibly win. Well, 1:15:47.280 --> 1:15:49.439 that's not the right answer, and that's not true, that's 1:15:49.439 --> 1:15:52.280 not that's not how they should look at it. But 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:55.760 but they do need to understand, you know, what the 1:15:55.800 --> 1:15:59.160 mix is, how they can succeed, how the fact that 1:15:59.240 --> 1:16:03.280 they're given uh an opportunity, how to how to slingshot that, 1:16:03.320 --> 1:16:07.040 and how to translate that into more success later on, 1:16:07.760 --> 1:16:09.519 and and it and it takes a lot of work, 1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:11.640 and and I just you know, it's like I just 1:16:11.680 --> 1:16:14.240 want people to have at least what I see as 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:17.280 the information. But but again, like in the aftermath of 1:16:17.280 --> 1:16:20.840 of the Rolling Stone piece and your you know kind 1:16:21.200 --> 1:16:26.479 uh um um amplification of my thoughts and ideas. You know, 1:16:26.520 --> 1:16:29.360 I've heard from some very um you know, it's sort 1:16:29.360 --> 1:16:32.120 of astute critics about you know that. Again, we're like, 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:34.280 we largely agree with you. But here's some other things 1:16:34.280 --> 1:16:36.800 to think about. You know, like Tom Gray from the 1:16:36.840 --> 1:16:41.800 band Gomez. Um he you know, has an organization or 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:44.519 started a movement called Broken Record. And you know, we 1:16:44.600 --> 1:16:48.799 had a an incredibly thoughtful exchange about Okay, Tom, who 1:16:48.840 --> 1:16:52.080 I know and or met once and basically slags me 1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:55.920 all the time. I'm very interested. He's a very advocate 1:16:56.000 --> 1:17:00.320 for the artist. What did he say to you that 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:03.280 you said, hmm, I didn't think of that. Well. I 1:17:03.320 --> 1:17:05.960 think the point that he made that hit the hardest 1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:08.439 for me, where I was kind of like, I need 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:11.479 to consider this more. Was you know, a discussion about 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:15.799 the the the average price UH or the average revenue 1:17:15.800 --> 1:17:20.280 per consumer at Spotify and UM and how you know, 1:17:20.320 --> 1:17:22.880 because you know, you know, I was talking about how 1:17:23.160 --> 1:17:27.520 the um you know, part of the reason why Spotify 1:17:27.560 --> 1:17:30.880 pays less is because they have the freemium model to 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:34.439 add supported model, which again you can make an argument 1:17:34.479 --> 1:17:38.400 that that depresses overall revenues, but I also make the 1:17:38.520 --> 1:17:41.240 argument that like, well, it's also bringing in revenues that 1:17:41.280 --> 1:17:45.920 we would never see with lower income UH consumers and 1:17:46.800 --> 1:17:50.320 UM and and and UM and I think even from 1:17:50.360 --> 1:17:53.639 the standpoint of of like, you know, people that don't 1:17:53.880 --> 1:17:55.840 you know, we're ten dollars a month, and of course 1:17:55.920 --> 1:17:58.000 you know, some people will say, well if they can't 1:17:58.000 --> 1:17:59.880 afford ten dollars a month, and I'm like, well that 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:01.800 you're speaking I mean, you know, you're speaking from a 1:18:02.280 --> 1:18:04.719 place of some you know, a certain amount of privilege 1:18:04.720 --> 1:18:08.160 when you know, dismiss you know, people to which a 1:18:08.360 --> 1:18:10.519 d and twenty dollars a year actually does make a 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:12.920 little bit of a difference, you know, And are we 1:18:12.960 --> 1:18:15.559 going to exclude those people from you know, from the 1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:18.960 consumption of art and music like you know, and so 1:18:19.040 --> 1:18:21.960 and also people who are lower income as soon as 1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:25.200 they can afford you know, uh, you know, kind of 1:18:25.200 --> 1:18:27.320 come up a little bit more. I'm sure they don't 1:18:27.360 --> 1:18:29.880 love listening to ads. They probably rather listen to music 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:32.639 without ads, and and they may you know, then turn 1:18:32.720 --> 1:18:35.920 into consumers. But we're either if we don't have that 1:18:36.160 --> 1:18:38.320 at least some option, then they're just not going to 1:18:38.400 --> 1:18:40.840 be that be there at all. They're not They're gonna 1:18:40.880 --> 1:18:43.320 going to be They're gonna be utterly non participatory and 1:18:44.120 --> 1:18:46.400 in our business. But the point that he made that 1:18:46.520 --> 1:18:51.360 kind of you know, resonated with me is that he goes, well, 1:18:51.400 --> 1:18:54.600 that's not the only reason why those numbers continue to 1:18:54.640 --> 1:18:57.960 come down. He goes, Spotify has made the decision, in 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:00.719 order to try to capture market share to do things 1:19:00.760 --> 1:19:02.800 like the family plan, where you know, you can get 1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:05.840 four people for fifteen dollars a month, and and the 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:09.519 college student thing for for you know, five dollars a month, 1:19:09.560 --> 1:19:14.320 and so they are discounting, uh, you know, and making 1:19:14.360 --> 1:19:20.360 those decisions unilaterally when uh uh sixty plus percent of 1:19:20.360 --> 1:19:23.760 the revenues uh, you know are are you know with 1:19:23.800 --> 1:19:25.599 the artists And he's like and and and you know, 1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:27.720 they have the decision to make it. But but but 1:19:27.760 --> 1:19:33.080 like if if if they wanted to invite stakeholders to 1:19:33.120 --> 1:19:37.040 participate in in those discussions, that might go a long 1:19:37.040 --> 1:19:41.040 way towards artists not feeling uh, you know, aggrieved. And 1:19:41.040 --> 1:19:42.840 and then of course also the and then this is 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:46.439 one of the things where personally I'm on the side 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:51.000 is I wish that Spotify would um just drop their 1:19:51.040 --> 1:19:54.559 appeal for the CRB the raise in the CRB rate 1:19:55.280 --> 1:19:59.840 um and and uh and uh you know, and pay 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:02.960 writers a little better. We all want that, at least 1:20:03.000 --> 1:20:06.599 those on the artistic side. Uh. The unfortunate thing is 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:11.000 just like the English commission, the government commission, they did along, 1:20:11.080 --> 1:20:13.679 they did hearings, they found out it was the labels, 1:20:14.080 --> 1:20:17.120 not Spotify and their deal. Just going back, because I 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:19.280 want to be on the record for people listening to this, 1:20:20.040 --> 1:20:23.879 people seem to have forgotten that one of the reasons 1:20:23.920 --> 1:20:28.599 Spotify was so successful was because of the free tier 1:20:28.640 --> 1:20:33.559 which eliminated piracy. Spotify was not the very first reading 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:40.320 Rhapsody existed in America for over a decade. And so 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:44.599 the people you know who I mean, do I wish 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:48.160 that YouTube paid a little bit more? Yes, But interestingly, 1:20:48.880 --> 1:20:51.040 real music fans tend to be on one of these 1:20:51.040 --> 1:20:55.599 streaming services as opposed to YouTube as far I mean, 1:20:55.600 --> 1:20:59.280 I'll be I'll be crashed. In terms of Tom's point, yes, 1:20:59.400 --> 1:21:02.080 Spotify will give you a seat in the table when 1:21:02.080 --> 1:21:04.840 you give him a seat in the studio. I mean, 1:21:04.880 --> 1:21:08.400 this is a this is a business. I mean I 1:21:08.400 --> 1:21:11.600 I sat through all this with Steve, with Daniel k. 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:13.439 And if you think this guy see me, you haven't 1:21:13.479 --> 1:21:17.160 met him. But uh, in the first part of the 1:21:17.160 --> 1:21:21.599 first decade of this century, Okay, they have done. This 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:24.560 just makes me crazy about a soft business like artists 1:21:24.720 --> 1:21:28.800 and some of this stuff to science. I remember when 1:21:28.840 --> 1:21:33.679 they went to the uh smartphone model and he said, 1:21:33.680 --> 1:21:36.080 we're gonna have a free tier on the smartphone model 1:21:36.800 --> 1:21:39.000 and I said, no, there should be a line, and 1:21:39.080 --> 1:21:42.240 he says, we did all the research, we get higher 1:21:42.320 --> 1:21:47.120 conversion to paid and he convinced all the labels of this. Okay, well, 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:49.839 but and I think if I mean to to underline 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:53.960 your point. Sorry for interrupting, but I'm enthusiastically agreeing. Like 1:21:54.040 --> 1:21:56.680 if you look at the again, I look at our 1:21:56.720 --> 1:21:58.760 our thing, and the number of streams we get from 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:03.040 the subscription side compared to the freemium side, it's it's 1:22:03.080 --> 1:22:07.200 not even close. And so I mean people, it's it's 1:22:07.280 --> 1:22:10.479 it's such a good value that if people can afford 1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:12.639 to pay, they're going to pay, and they have seen 1:22:12.680 --> 1:22:15.400 that conversion, you know, rate so but I mean, but 1:22:15.439 --> 1:22:19.360 I do think, um, you know, I do think I 1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:22.839 enjoyed the conversation with Tom. I thought it was very thoughtful, 1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:26.080 it was very respectful, and you know, as long as 1:22:26.120 --> 1:22:29.599 people are engaging and open to, you know, other people's 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:32.479 ideas and thoughts. But but but also at a certain point, 1:22:32.600 --> 1:22:34.200 you know, I remember one time back when I was 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:37.400 selling records to Hastings, and I don't even remember what 1:22:37.560 --> 1:22:40.160 the issue was, but I think it had something to 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:42.760 do with a Robert r'keene record and whether he was 1:22:42.760 --> 1:22:44.960 going to be put into country or or you know, 1:22:45.080 --> 1:22:47.960 or having an Americana section or something. But any rate, 1:22:47.960 --> 1:22:50.400 I was talking with Steve Hicks, who was the buyer, 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:53.280 and I was very impassionate about like what needed to happen. 1:22:53.320 --> 1:22:55.679 He was like, hey, hey, David, guess what I said. 1:22:55.760 --> 1:22:59.439 What because there are stores not yours, and you know, 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:01.720 it was like it's a valuable thing to you know, 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:05.240 to learn. So I mean I feel, you know, like 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:08.040 you know, I don't feel like you know, I mean, 1:23:08.160 --> 1:23:09.960 you know, and you know, Tom even said like, look, 1:23:10.000 --> 1:23:12.720 you know Spotify, you know, like they'll talk to me 1:23:12.880 --> 1:23:14.920 and and and you know, and and and all that, 1:23:15.000 --> 1:23:18.080 and again I think that there are some valid critiques, 1:23:18.240 --> 1:23:21.240 but you know, uh, it's like, you know, but let's 1:23:21.240 --> 1:23:26.320 have those conversations. Let's have them respectfully, but like let's uh, 1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:28.000 you know, and let's all work towards the met a bit. 1:23:28.080 --> 1:23:30.000 But any system, I mean, one thing that I wrote 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:32.439 at the end of my thing, any any streaming were 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:38.200 bad for the ecosystem, Like any system that promotes uh 1:23:38.400 --> 1:23:41.840 uh you know, uh you know, in like an incredible 1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:45.800 explosion of access for independent artists also which is raised 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:49.360 revenues by helped raise revenues from at least here in 1:23:49.360 --> 1:23:52.960 America by sev over the last six years, is not 1:23:53.040 --> 1:23:55.519 a broken system. And one of the reasons why I 1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:58.439 was such an advocate early on about streaming and what 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:01.120 why I felt it was going was going to happen. 1:24:01.760 --> 1:24:03.719 Was I picked up the phone and I called people 1:24:03.720 --> 1:24:10.920 in Sweden where back by um they had scaled the 1:24:11.040 --> 1:24:13.200 of the total revenues in the music business and in 1:24:13.320 --> 1:24:17.519 Sweden was through streaming. And I asked, like, well, what happened? 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:19.840 How is your business? Are you doing more business? I 1:24:19.920 --> 1:24:22.240 talked to a couple of artist managers. They were happy 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:24.479 with what they were seeing, you know, and it's just, 1:24:25.240 --> 1:24:27.560 you know, it's like it's been a good thing. Is 1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:29.840 the room for you know? Are there some things that 1:24:29.880 --> 1:24:32.280 I wish they would do differently? Absolutely? But I just, 1:24:32.400 --> 1:24:36.320 you know it when the conversation turned from you know, 1:24:36.400 --> 1:24:39.000 and like the Joe Rogan thing, like look, artists can 1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:41.240 follow their conscience and do whatever they want. They can, 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:43.759 you know, I don't. I don't really have an opinion 1:24:44.080 --> 1:24:46.960 about that necessarily, and and you know, artists can come 1:24:46.960 --> 1:24:51.920 to their own conclusion. But it quickly turned from uh, well, 1:24:52.080 --> 1:24:54.160 you know, like okay, well they're they're you know, angry 1:24:54.160 --> 1:24:56.800 about Joe Rogan. Where have you been? You know, like 1:24:56.880 --> 1:24:59.479 the real crime is how much they're fucking artists and 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:00.960 how much they're not paying. And I was like, well, 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:04.559 that is not my experience, nor the experience of a 1:25:04.560 --> 1:25:07.479 lot of the artists that that we work with, and 1:25:07.640 --> 1:25:09.400 you know, so I just it's and again like it's 1:25:09.400 --> 1:25:13.360 a you know, it's a it's a complex thing, and 1:25:13.360 --> 1:25:16.559 and you know, it's it takes some time and some 1:25:16.680 --> 1:25:19.120 nuance to try to explain it all. But like I I, 1:25:19.280 --> 1:25:22.120 you know, I feel driven to from my experience to 1:25:22.160 --> 1:25:25.920 try to talk about this stuff because it's important. You know, artists, 1:25:25.960 --> 1:25:28.600 if they're going to succeed, they have to understand the 1:25:28.640 --> 1:25:31.240 state of play. And I'm going to do my part 1:25:31.280 --> 1:25:33.479 to try to help tell it from my viewpoint. But 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:36.280 I'm also going to remain open to other people's ideas 1:25:36.560 --> 1:25:39.679 and and you know, because it's it's fun to learn. 1:25:39.720 --> 1:25:42.680 It's fun to to hear other people's ideas, even if 1:25:42.720 --> 1:25:44.880 you don't agree with them. Okay, I want to comment 1:25:44.960 --> 1:25:48.160 on that a little bit. Um And this is what 1:25:48.240 --> 1:25:51.000 people get angry with me about. But I hear from 1:25:51.000 --> 1:25:53.519 these people all along. The people I hear from most 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:57.800 are the people with no traction. They believe that their 1:25:57.840 --> 1:26:02.040 future was stolen by the Internet. Then you have people 1:26:02.400 --> 1:26:05.160 who were sustained by the old model who were never 1:26:05.200 --> 1:26:09.000 in the black ever on their record royalties. Somebody moved 1:26:09.040 --> 1:26:12.519 their cheese and they can't handle it. The other thing 1:26:12.640 --> 1:26:16.200 is I remember watching Bill Maher both these stories going 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:18.879 to be from Bill Maher, and he had Paul Krugman, 1:26:18.960 --> 1:26:23.559 the economists and Jesse whatever, who had been the governor 1:26:23.560 --> 1:26:28.000 of Minnesota. And he kept on talking Jesse, all the 1:26:28.040 --> 1:26:31.920 farmers getting screwed, the government's taking the money. And Paul's 1:26:31.920 --> 1:26:33.960 got his hand and said, he goes, those are you 1:26:34.040 --> 1:26:38.120 have a completely opposite it's farm supports. They're not taking 1:26:38.120 --> 1:26:42.000 the money, they're giving the money. And the other thing, uh, 1:26:42.080 --> 1:26:44.120 that Bill mart You know, he'd like to play in 1:26:44.160 --> 1:26:48.720 the NBA, but he's five seven. So now since it's 1:26:48.760 --> 1:26:52.800 been Democratye, the number one thing in this world, well 1:26:53.479 --> 1:26:57.800 subsequent to information in general, is access. And what people 1:26:57.880 --> 1:27:01.920 don't realize is when you start in falsehoods, you can 1:27:02.040 --> 1:27:07.080 get no access. Like occasionally these big business titans will 1:27:07.080 --> 1:27:10.200 sit and be bombarded by these people. But if you 1:27:10.240 --> 1:27:13.040 look at the titans and the music business people running 1:27:13.040 --> 1:27:16.960 the major labels, they are never accessible. Never Lucy and 1:27:17.000 --> 1:27:20.160 Grange never did a public thing. The head to the 1:27:20.200 --> 1:27:23.160 other two labels never did a public thing because they're 1:27:23.240 --> 1:27:28.639 inundated with the sour grapes. As you say, they are 1:27:28.800 --> 1:27:33.519 running a business, and in all other walks of life, 1:27:33.680 --> 1:27:36.960 to the winners go the spoils. But in addition, Daniel 1:27:37.000 --> 1:27:40.400 Lex said, and it's actually more is going to the 1:27:40.560 --> 1:27:45.200 so called long tail. And you're not entitled to make 1:27:46.080 --> 1:27:49.439 a living in the arts. So if you want to 1:27:49.479 --> 1:27:53.439 talk to the people who can help you out, you 1:27:53.479 --> 1:27:55.679 should know the lay of the land. If someone's gonna 1:27:55.720 --> 1:27:58.479 talk to you or Danny Bush or any of these labels, 1:27:58.520 --> 1:28:02.719 they come in Spotify is to devil it. They're gonna say, yeah, fine, 1:28:02.800 --> 1:28:05.800 I never want to talk to that guy again. You know, 1:28:06.280 --> 1:28:10.800 is it hard being an artist? These are distribution platforms. 1:28:11.120 --> 1:28:15.479 They're based on numbers. There's so much misinformation. You know. 1:28:15.640 --> 1:28:20.000 I'll write you know, uh, you talk about the whole thing, 1:28:20.120 --> 1:28:22.679 and I agree, totally became less about what Rogan said 1:28:22.680 --> 1:28:25.559 about Spotify the platform. But I'll write something. I'll talk 1:28:25.560 --> 1:28:27.960 about the free tier, and I'll get an email after 1:28:28.000 --> 1:28:31.599 I said we should put your playlists on Title. Well, 1:28:31.680 --> 1:28:33.919 Title doesn't have a free tier, and as the smallest 1:28:33.960 --> 1:28:36.840 market share of all people. I literally wrote it. It's 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:41.160 what you're responding to. So it gets very frustrating. And again, 1:28:41.280 --> 1:28:43.160 you know, I think if you know, this is where 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:47.599 consumers have agency, if you if you you know, if 1:28:47.640 --> 1:28:52.720 you care about that, then uh, then go go be 1:28:52.800 --> 1:28:55.000 a title subscriber. I mean this, this is where the 1:28:55.040 --> 1:28:57.320 marketplace you know can speak to it. A lot of 1:28:57.320 --> 1:28:59.639 people are doing that, and I think that's that's great, 1:28:59.680 --> 1:29:02.920 and that's that's what everybody you know. But but but 1:29:02.960 --> 1:29:07.080 like but also just be informed about it. And also 1:29:07.560 --> 1:29:10.439 again like I try to be when I talk about 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:13.680 this stuff, I do want to be respectful about you know, 1:29:13.760 --> 1:29:18.280 everybody's you know, experienced, uh you know about it, and 1:29:18.320 --> 1:29:21.880 I try to try to be um you know when 1:29:22.000 --> 1:29:24.120 you know, like when I talked about the you know, 1:29:24.200 --> 1:29:27.120 my piece about well, you know, sixt of businesses in 1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:31.240 America fail within ten years, and you know, and when 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:33.439 you know, I mean and and honestly as a person 1:29:33.439 --> 1:29:38.080 who started a business and um and worked really hard 1:29:38.080 --> 1:29:41.120 and it was by no means certainty. I mean, you know, 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:43.760 I paid myself forty thousand dollars a year for the 1:29:43.800 --> 1:29:46.160 first you know, many many years of the company, and 1:29:46.160 --> 1:29:47.920 I did not make a profit, and I came out 1:29:47.960 --> 1:29:49.760 of the major label world. I was making you know, 1:29:49.840 --> 1:29:52.320 a lot more money than than that. But I believed 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:55.000 in what I was doing, and I lived very frugally 1:29:55.080 --> 1:29:58.760 and worked really hard to make my business work. And 1:29:58.800 --> 1:30:02.360 I know other people do the same. Um. But when 1:30:02.360 --> 1:30:06.080 I see you know, a nail salon, you know, closed down, 1:30:06.160 --> 1:30:10.320 or a restaurant closed down, that's somebody's dream. That's that's 1:30:10.360 --> 1:30:11.960 that's died that, you know. And not to say that 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:13.840 other dreams can't come up, but like I have great 1:30:13.880 --> 1:30:17.000 empathy for that, Um, I really do. And you know, 1:30:17.080 --> 1:30:20.040 but but you know, it's it's that's uh, you know, 1:30:20.240 --> 1:30:22.800 that's a natural occurrence. And I want people The thing is, 1:30:22.800 --> 1:30:25.080 I want people's dreams to come through. I want artists 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:28.080 to succeed. Not everyone is going to. If you don't, 1:30:28.120 --> 1:30:30.719 if your music does not connect to the point where 1:30:30.720 --> 1:30:34.639 you it brings enough monetary value in you, you then 1:30:34.880 --> 1:30:37.599 whether you deserve to make a living or don't deserve 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:39.600 to make a living, that's that's you know, that's a 1:30:39.640 --> 1:30:41.680 subjective thing. The fact is, if you don't bring it 1:30:41.760 --> 1:30:43.880 enough money, you're not going to make a living. So 1:30:44.680 --> 1:30:47.360 look at the situation for what it really is and 1:30:47.400 --> 1:30:50.000 get ready to work your fucking ass off, because that's 1:30:50.040 --> 1:30:52.479 what it takes. That's what I did, That's what you know, 1:30:52.640 --> 1:30:55.879 that's what many many other artists. I think about Charlie Crockett, 1:30:56.400 --> 1:30:59.800 That motherfucker works harder than anybody I know, and he 1:30:59.880 --> 1:31:03.920 is succeeded because his music is great and he works 1:31:04.080 --> 1:31:06.080 his ass off, and it's like, that's what it takes 1:31:06.080 --> 1:31:08.640 to that. I think that's what I really want to 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:11.479 come out of out of this discussion. And if people 1:31:11.640 --> 1:31:16.200 aren't going to look at it realistically and again, like 1:31:16.200 --> 1:31:20.800 I don't presume that I have a lock on on 1:31:20.920 --> 1:31:22.760 what the truth is. I mean, I need to be 1:31:22.840 --> 1:31:24.800 humble enough to be open and learn, and I do. 1:31:24.920 --> 1:31:27.840 And I'm talking to Tom, and I'm talking to all 1:31:27.920 --> 1:31:31.120 kinds of people that have have you know, opened the 1:31:31.160 --> 1:31:34.160 door for conversations, for respectful conversations about this. You know, 1:31:34.240 --> 1:31:38.320 I think I think you know that's important. But but 1:31:38.360 --> 1:31:42.160 if if if you're if you are giving into despondency 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:44.880 or you're just you're you're you're just not looking at 1:31:44.880 --> 1:31:47.160 it right, then you're not going to make the decisions 1:31:47.200 --> 1:31:49.439 that you the right decisions that you need to be 1:31:49.479 --> 1:31:52.360 able to succeed. That's just that's just the way that 1:31:52.400 --> 1:32:02.559 it is. Everybody from the boomer generation who works in 1:32:02.600 --> 1:32:06.000 the music business used to be a player and they 1:32:06.040 --> 1:32:08.519 woke up one day and they said, I'm not good enough. 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:12.400 There's a whole business based on giving people false hope. 1:32:12.840 --> 1:32:16.160 All these sites online will get your gigs whatever. I 1:32:16.320 --> 1:32:18.519 like to be the voice on the other side, because 1:32:19.760 --> 1:32:22.080 you know, there's that Don Henley song. Doesn't happen to 1:32:22.120 --> 1:32:23.880 be a great song, but I love the line it goes, 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:27.840 how bad do you want it? Not bad enough? You know? 1:32:28.000 --> 1:32:30.479 You know I'll get you know all the time? Well, yeah, yeah, 1:32:30.479 --> 1:32:32.439 you know Spotify payments. I am I supposed to get 1:32:32.640 --> 1:32:34.400 pay for my car and pay for my house and 1:32:34.400 --> 1:32:37.000 my kids. Who told you to buy a house, who 1:32:37.040 --> 1:32:39.479 told you to have a car, who told you get married? 1:32:39.880 --> 1:32:42.080 It's amazing how many how much people have sacrificed. Let 1:32:42.120 --> 1:32:44.320 me move on a little bit though, In terms of 1:32:44.360 --> 1:32:48.000 the revenue from streaming, how does it break down amongst 1:32:48.000 --> 1:32:52.320 the varying services, Well, Spotify is a number one uh customer, 1:32:52.760 --> 1:32:59.200 you know app Apple is close behind uh um, and 1:32:59.240 --> 1:33:03.040 then uh and then you know Amazon's you know, come 1:33:03.080 --> 1:33:06.040 way up. YouTube is a is a you know, is 1:33:06.080 --> 1:33:08.639 a you know, pretty big contribute. I don't I should 1:33:08.640 --> 1:33:11.120 have prepared for this, and I don't have the exact breakdown, 1:33:11.640 --> 1:33:16.000 but I would say between uh, I mean Spotify is right, 1:33:16.080 --> 1:33:19.360 it's just a little under thirty so whatever, like thirty 1:33:19.400 --> 1:33:23.280 divided by you know, that's what they're you know, proportion 1:33:23.439 --> 1:33:26.559 is at Apple's you know is not not that far behind. 1:33:26.640 --> 1:33:28.559 So and the others are are are coming. I mean 1:33:28.840 --> 1:33:31.759 no Amazon has done you know, they're working really hard 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:36.800 and you know that's coming up. So I would say, um, yeah, 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:39.200 I don't you know, yeah, I don't know. It's probably 1:33:39.240 --> 1:33:43.160 not gonna be really compelling compelling listening to to to 1:33:43.200 --> 1:33:45.600 hear me cipher on well we're taking I'm not going 1:33:45.640 --> 1:33:48.439 to annail you on the percentages. Um, let me go 1:33:48.479 --> 1:33:52.640 to the next thing, which is, okay, playlisting and access 1:33:52.680 --> 1:33:55.439 to what degree is this hell take done by the 1:33:55.560 --> 1:33:59.240 orchard into what degree is it done by you? And 1:33:59.360 --> 1:34:04.040 how important relationships and how are important getting on playlists? Well, 1:34:04.080 --> 1:34:10.000 I think this is a big a little you know, understand. 1:34:10.040 --> 1:34:13.000 I mean again, I think that I think people are 1:34:13.120 --> 1:34:16.080 much more conspiratorial than is the truth. I mean, the 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:20.080 fact is spot Spotify over the last few years has 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:24.360 has really, um, not completely walled off access to their people, 1:34:24.920 --> 1:34:29.519 but um, they've made it a real priority to like 1:34:29.880 --> 1:34:34.439 to to lessen than the influence of the industry. And 1:34:34.479 --> 1:34:36.160 I think that's a wise thing to do. And I'm 1:34:36.360 --> 1:34:38.639 I'm just speaking about Spotify. I mean Apple, I think 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:41.160 is the same way. I'm you know, I don't mean 1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:44.000 to keep harping on that, but I guess because Spotify 1:34:44.000 --> 1:34:45.720 has been so top of mind for me the last 1:34:45.760 --> 1:34:47.400 couple of weeks. You know, it's easy for me to 1:34:47.439 --> 1:34:52.080 go there. But I think that you know, we you know, 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:56.920 we advocate, Um, I feel like we're heard. Um. I 1:34:56.960 --> 1:35:01.719 feel like if if they understand h sort of why 1:35:02.400 --> 1:35:05.280 we think that an artist is is special, they'll they'll 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:07.760 give it a they'll give it a shot. Maybe, you know, 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:11.120 maybe not. Sometimes I'm surprised that we don't get support 1:35:11.160 --> 1:35:15.120 on certain things, but you know, it's uh um. But 1:35:15.120 --> 1:35:16.439 but I think a lot of thought goes into it. 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:18.719 I remember a conversation we were having I was having 1:35:18.720 --> 1:35:21.479 with somebody there about Josh Ritter. This is a very 1:35:21.479 --> 1:35:24.880 big learning moment for me. Um, Josh Ritter. You know, 1:35:25.120 --> 1:35:28.559 has traditionally been really uh solid on in like the 1:35:28.680 --> 1:35:31.720 kind of folk singer songwriter type of playlists. And I 1:35:31.760 --> 1:35:34.599 was talking with somebody about Spotify about you know kind 1:35:34.600 --> 1:35:36.200 of like, well, I'm you know, I'm surprised that we're 1:35:36.200 --> 1:35:38.360 not getting more support from Josh Ritter and you know, 1:35:38.400 --> 1:35:40.599 he's been a big deal and all that stuff. And 1:35:40.680 --> 1:35:44.559 the person said, uh that I was speaking to you, said, well, 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:46.559 let me ask you a question. I mean, Josh, you know, 1:35:46.640 --> 1:35:49.519 did this more of a rock approach? And there's drums on, 1:35:49.840 --> 1:35:52.160 you know, on that record, and yet you guys submitted 1:35:52.280 --> 1:35:55.400 for uh, you know this, you know, like my favorite 1:35:55.439 --> 1:35:57.840 coffee house or whatever, and like there are we just 1:35:57.920 --> 1:36:00.280 don't like things with drums. That's not the vibe and 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:02.320 all that stuff. So it was kind of putting it 1:36:02.320 --> 1:36:05.280 back on us, like, you know, perhaps you didn't ask 1:36:05.320 --> 1:36:08.000 for the right thing. And they don't have the space 1:36:08.080 --> 1:36:11.639 too necessarily. I mean, they get inundated. It's like they're 1:36:11.680 --> 1:36:13.599 there there, it's like they're getting shot with a fire 1:36:13.600 --> 1:36:16.200 hose in terms of the number of artists they get 1:36:16.200 --> 1:36:18.840 and the number of requests that they get. And so 1:36:19.600 --> 1:36:23.320 whoever was programming that playlist, um the thing that we 1:36:23.360 --> 1:36:26.800 submitted did not fit you know, that the you know, 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:29.360 the thing that we were asking for. And so even 1:36:29.360 --> 1:36:32.200 though they you know, I feel like they love us, 1:36:32.200 --> 1:36:35.360 they respect us, but like they they you know, we 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:37.760 didn't get what we were, you know, asking for, So 1:36:37.840 --> 1:36:41.679 it's not it's not um. And and also we'll start 1:36:41.720 --> 1:36:43.919 off with artists on on some of the lower playlists 1:36:43.960 --> 1:36:46.400 and we will only as much as they like us. 1:36:46.439 --> 1:36:50.120 We will only grow onto other playlists. If our music 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:52.800 works in that thing, they will then spread it. So 1:36:52.880 --> 1:36:56.400 I mean, I feel like, you know, Spotify wants to 1:36:56.479 --> 1:36:59.240 create and I'm Apple too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for 1:36:59.320 --> 1:37:01.759 my friends and other DSPs that I keep saying Spotify, 1:37:01.800 --> 1:37:04.680 but you know, but they they want to create an 1:37:04.800 --> 1:37:08.679 environment in these rooms where in these in these you know, playlists. 1:37:08.680 --> 1:37:11.559 They want to create a sonic experience that works for 1:37:11.600 --> 1:37:14.240 the that meets the expectation of that person. If we 1:37:14.439 --> 1:37:17.559 if you're promoting music, no matter how much what they 1:37:17.600 --> 1:37:20.600 like you or how much access they have, they're in 1:37:20.720 --> 1:37:23.719 business to meet their customers expectations. If you're not meeting 1:37:23.720 --> 1:37:26.759 their customers expectations, I don't care how much they like you, 1:37:26.760 --> 1:37:29.040 You're not gonna it's not gonna work, you know, and 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:32.000 so um and I feel like I feel like that 1:37:32.000 --> 1:37:34.479 that's the reality of the situation. So all this talk 1:37:34.560 --> 1:37:38.840 about like you know, access and people scratching each other's back, 1:37:38.960 --> 1:37:40.760 it was probably a little more that way, to be honest, 1:37:40.760 --> 1:37:42.600 about four or five years ago. I don't feel like 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:46.240 it's really that way now or or as much, you know, 1:37:46.360 --> 1:37:50.360 but do do do we Probably because of the quality 1:37:50.400 --> 1:37:52.960 of our you know, of what we put out, in 1:37:53.000 --> 1:37:55.759 the high success rate that we have, of of of 1:37:55.760 --> 1:37:58.040 of the you know, of the of our music in 1:37:58.080 --> 1:38:02.760 certain genres, might we get an opportun tunity uh that 1:38:03.439 --> 1:38:05.400 you know, might they give us the benefit of the 1:38:05.439 --> 1:38:08.000 doubt of an opportunity? Probably? And that's what our job 1:38:08.080 --> 1:38:11.400 is is to you know, be great advocates for our 1:38:11.439 --> 1:38:13.519 for our artists and try to you know, get them 1:38:13.560 --> 1:38:15.519 on the path to success. But it doesn't you know, 1:38:15.520 --> 1:38:18.400 it doesn't always work. But I feel like that's that 1:38:18.560 --> 1:38:20.920 is a big point of misinformation as far as like 1:38:21.120 --> 1:38:26.360 the the um you know, how how you know, corrupt 1:38:26.600 --> 1:38:29.479 the you know, the process is. I feel like it's 1:38:29.640 --> 1:38:33.479 it's it's pretty above board in my experience. Okay, let's 1:38:33.479 --> 1:38:35.519 go to the other side of the fence. Let's assume 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:38.880 you get on the playlist. A couple of questions here, 1:38:39.080 --> 1:38:45.360 how effective or playlists is opposed to songs just picked specifically, 1:38:46.080 --> 1:38:49.360 And let's assume you're on the playlist, tell us about 1:38:49.400 --> 1:38:53.080 them saying, Hey, people saved it, we're gonna move you 1:38:53.120 --> 1:38:55.000 to other things. Or people didn't save it, we're gonna 1:38:55.080 --> 1:38:57.280 drop it. Yeah, I mean, we get that kind of feedback, 1:38:57.439 --> 1:39:00.040 you know, all the time. But one thing to that, 1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:02.080 I feel like people like when when things get on 1:39:02.120 --> 1:39:05.840 a playlist, there's a lot of passive listening that happens 1:39:05.880 --> 1:39:08.200 on that playlist, you know, especially probably kind of the 1:39:08.240 --> 1:39:10.280 more acoustic things and and all that stuff. I mean, 1:39:10.560 --> 1:39:12.719 you know, we had one of our acts, I won't 1:39:13.000 --> 1:39:15.920 you know, name names, but they were very popular because 1:39:16.320 --> 1:39:19.000 um the playlist, because it just sort of fit what, 1:39:19.600 --> 1:39:22.639 you know, the you know, what was happening. They didn't 1:39:22.640 --> 1:39:24.400 have you know, they had a very low skip rate 1:39:24.439 --> 1:39:28.040 because it it fit the you know, the atmosphere that 1:39:28.040 --> 1:39:32.000 that the that the playlists were trying to foster. And 1:39:32.240 --> 1:39:34.760 you know that we were getting you know, ten and 1:39:34.880 --> 1:39:39.720 twenty million, twenty million streams on their music and you know, 1:39:39.800 --> 1:39:42.719 they went out thinking like, oh, well, god, we're getting 1:39:42.760 --> 1:39:44.960 all these streams. Then you know, we'll go out and 1:39:45.680 --> 1:39:48.000 you know they and they overshot when they were touring. 1:39:48.560 --> 1:39:51.600 You know, I went to a few shows that you 1:39:51.600 --> 1:39:54.280 know where the room was a third full, you know, 1:39:54.360 --> 1:39:58.479 because you know, the the a lot of that listening 1:39:58.520 --> 1:40:01.120 is very passive, you know, you think, I mean, one 1:40:01.160 --> 1:40:03.720 of the numbers that I care about the least is 1:40:03.760 --> 1:40:05.679 the number of you know, when you say like somebody 1:40:05.720 --> 1:40:10.200 has so many monthly listeners, that number needs virtually nothing 1:40:10.240 --> 1:40:13.760 to me. Because if you're on a series of playlists 1:40:13.800 --> 1:40:16.160 and you get any you know, any listening at all, 1:40:16.479 --> 1:40:18.400 no matter how passive it is, you're going to show 1:40:18.479 --> 1:40:20.599 up on there. And that doesn't mean that you've made 1:40:20.600 --> 1:40:24.439 a fan. You know, it's it's a it's a you know, 1:40:24.520 --> 1:40:27.760 it's an opportunity to be heard. It's an opportunity for revenue, 1:40:28.320 --> 1:40:30.360 but it is not an opportunity. This is not you know, 1:40:30.360 --> 1:40:34.840 when you're passive listening on on on, you know, Spotify, 1:40:35.439 --> 1:40:39.280 the revelation of who the artist is and you know 1:40:39.600 --> 1:40:42.200 why their music flows from them as inevitable, which is 1:40:42.240 --> 1:40:44.320 when you're gonna make fans, and when you're going to 1:40:44.439 --> 1:40:49.080 like build lifelong relationships with fans. That doesn't happen in that, 1:40:49.600 --> 1:40:52.960 you know, in that in in a passive listening environment 1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:55.479 like that. And so you know, it's great, it's a 1:40:55.600 --> 1:40:58.000 it's a it's an introduction. But if you're not prepared 1:40:58.320 --> 1:41:01.679 to then extrapolate that conversation and you know, with long 1:41:01.760 --> 1:41:04.679 form narrative and and and and help fill in the gap, 1:41:05.400 --> 1:41:08.840 then you're you're you're going to you're not going to 1:41:08.960 --> 1:41:10.439 do well, You're not you're you know, it's like you're 1:41:10.479 --> 1:41:13.080 not doing the full job. And but that's why we 1:41:13.120 --> 1:41:16.080 don't you know, sign acts who we just think are like, oh, 1:41:16.200 --> 1:41:18.600 you know, we'll get playlisted and you know, and and 1:41:18.680 --> 1:41:20.720 if it cashes on then we're gonna do It's like 1:41:20.760 --> 1:41:25.200 that is you know, playlisting is not artist development period. Okay, 1:41:25.240 --> 1:41:28.040 so how many people at your company speak to the 1:41:28.120 --> 1:41:32.160 DSPs and how frequently do you three? And all the time, 1:41:32.840 --> 1:41:34.400 you know, we we haven't split out well, I guess, 1:41:34.479 --> 1:41:38.040 I guess technically now i'd say yeah, three. I mean 1:41:38.040 --> 1:41:41.320 because one of them we have somebody who specifically focuses 1:41:41.320 --> 1:41:44.080 on video content and so that's you know, they probably 1:41:44.120 --> 1:41:47.200 do more the heavy lifting when it comes to YouTube. Um, 1:41:47.280 --> 1:41:48.640 you know, but the other two and you know, and 1:41:49.120 --> 1:41:52.400 I also you know, I mean I speak to everybody, 1:41:52.640 --> 1:41:54.639 you know, everywhere, and every now and again and again 1:41:54.640 --> 1:41:56.920 I want to put my people in a position to 1:41:56.960 --> 1:41:59.200 do their jobs and and and and but every now 1:41:59.280 --> 1:42:02.160 and again, call somebody it's Spotify and just be like, 1:42:02.200 --> 1:42:04.000 I think you're missing this one. I think you're missing 1:42:04.000 --> 1:42:06.120 this one. Here's what's going on. And maybe I'll get 1:42:06.120 --> 1:42:08.719 a result, and maybe I won't get a result, but um, 1:42:08.760 --> 1:42:10.320 but you know, but but day in and day out, 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:12.760 we have three people that are are focused on that. 1:42:12.960 --> 1:42:15.920 And to what degree can you get access to the 1:42:16.000 --> 1:42:19.960 playlist creators themselves as opposed to people higher up the 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:22.800 food virtually none. I mean to be honest with you, like, 1:42:23.200 --> 1:42:26.080 you know, like I don't know who programs my favorite 1:42:26.120 --> 1:42:28.840 coffee house and that's a huge playlist for us, and 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:31.360 I don't think you know, I mean, it goes through 1:42:31.400 --> 1:42:33.680 the pitch tool and and again like it's it's a 1:42:35.040 --> 1:42:38.320 you know, it's it's a dictate from Spotify that they 1:42:38.560 --> 1:42:41.320 you know, it's like they want their people listening to 1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:44.360 the music and making judgments on the music. They want 1:42:44.400 --> 1:42:48.240 to have less influence of because you know, it's like 1:42:48.360 --> 1:42:50.240 people are in their ears all the time and spending 1:42:50.240 --> 1:42:53.280 their time, they're not focusing on the music. And and 1:42:53.320 --> 1:42:58.080 again like sixty thousand tracks a day, so people are 1:42:58.120 --> 1:43:01.320 are are utilizing the pitch tool. I mean, it's just 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:04.120 it's it's it's an unbelievable task to try to get 1:43:04.200 --> 1:43:07.719 through all of that music and make judgments that will 1:43:08.560 --> 1:43:11.280 you know, help Spotify create you know, create those playlists 1:43:11.280 --> 1:43:13.960 in those rooms. And so I think that's a wise 1:43:14.000 --> 1:43:16.000 decision on their part. But that's you know, that's just 1:43:16.080 --> 1:43:17.599 a fact of the matter. I mean, it's just not 1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:21.120 a I mean, I think that's one of the biggest 1:43:21.120 --> 1:43:25.000 things that people don't understand about you know, Apple, Spotify, ETCeteras, 1:43:25.160 --> 1:43:28.040 is to the degree they'll take our input, um, just 1:43:28.160 --> 1:43:30.760 as as anybody you know in any walk of the 1:43:30.760 --> 1:43:33.400 business will take our input. But it's it's it's like, 1:43:33.840 --> 1:43:35.719 you know, we hear you. Maybe it'll have an impact, 1:43:35.800 --> 1:43:37.720 maybe it won't have an impact, but it's like it's 1:43:37.760 --> 1:43:40.280 not it's not like, you know, we can just snap 1:43:40.320 --> 1:43:41.880 our fingers. And that goes with the you know, with 1:43:41.920 --> 1:43:44.439 the major labels too. I'm I'm you know, I'm certain 1:43:44.479 --> 1:43:46.559 of it. They don't, you know, they're there and they're 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:48.680 advocating and doing their part, but it's not like they 1:43:48.720 --> 1:43:51.639 just can snap their fingers and all of a sudden, 1:43:51.760 --> 1:43:53.559 you know, get everything that they want. And I think 1:43:53.560 --> 1:43:56.920 the proportion I mean I did in preparation for having 1:43:56.960 --> 1:44:00.000 that conversation with Rolling Stone, I just picked a playlist 1:44:00.000 --> 1:44:04.200 at random, and I picked New Boots because, um, you know, 1:44:04.280 --> 1:44:07.160 for country, you kind of think, well, countries dominated by 1:44:07.200 --> 1:44:09.880 major labels and all that stuff. And I looked and 1:44:09.920 --> 1:44:12.559 went through I went through every single track and looked 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:15.280 at the copyright line of the acts. And some of 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:18.519 those acts may have labels that are really just them, 1:44:18.560 --> 1:44:20.840 but they just got it. But but I didn't even 1:44:20.920 --> 1:44:23.600 count those. But I counted twenty artists that the copyright 1:44:23.640 --> 1:44:26.960 line was just their name, and so they that artists 1:44:27.360 --> 1:44:30.920 uploaded themselves through tune cores and and they were given 1:44:30.960 --> 1:44:33.559 a shot and and and that that music, like all 1:44:33.600 --> 1:44:37.280 the music that I heard, was really good. And um, 1:44:37.400 --> 1:44:40.840 so they don't have anybody that you know, they don't 1:44:40.880 --> 1:44:45.639 have anybody calling Spotify and and uh trying to convince them. 1:44:45.880 --> 1:44:49.080 Spotify made those decisions strictly on the quality of the music. 1:44:49.360 --> 1:44:52.160 And and again like if you're an independent artist, like 1:44:53.000 --> 1:44:55.320 I mean, you know, it's like it's important that you 1:44:55.360 --> 1:44:59.599 know that you know, don't get despondent, make your best music, 1:44:59.640 --> 1:45:03.040 get it there, Understand the state of play, Understand the environment. 1:45:03.120 --> 1:45:06.080 But like you know, go take you know, shoot your shot. 1:45:06.400 --> 1:45:08.920 And and you know, I feel like the DSPs have 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:12.599 have largely stepped up. I think it's much better now 1:45:12.720 --> 1:45:15.000 for them than it was even five years ago. You know, 1:45:15.040 --> 1:45:18.800 occasionally there's big promotions on the home page, etcetera. Is 1:45:18.840 --> 1:45:21.439 that an opportunity that ever comes to you, like with 1:45:21.479 --> 1:45:25.160 a Jason Isabel or is that really just for worldwide stars? 1:45:25.560 --> 1:45:28.200 I think if it's like a like a full cross 1:45:28.280 --> 1:45:31.880 platform you know type of thing, you know, they're probably 1:45:31.920 --> 1:45:34.280 gonna they're gonna do certain things for the Beyonce's that 1:45:34.360 --> 1:45:36.720 they're not maybe going to do with ours. But you know, 1:45:36.960 --> 1:45:40.519 but we you know, but they're they're definitely open to 1:45:40.600 --> 1:45:44.080 us doing things that are you know, major looks for 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:47.320 the audience that that artist has. You know, they've they've 1:45:47.360 --> 1:45:49.479 done you know, you know, they've done some you know, 1:45:49.520 --> 1:45:54.160 we've done some pretty you know, impactful promotions with you 1:45:54.200 --> 1:45:57.400 know all the DSPs, and I think that um, you 1:45:57.439 --> 1:46:01.559 know the uh you know the sort of the you know, 1:46:02.080 --> 1:46:04.519 you know, the cover art, the you know sort of 1:46:04.520 --> 1:46:07.360 the you know the picture and you know who's on 1:46:07.400 --> 1:46:09.559 the Indigo playlist or on the on the you know, 1:46:09.600 --> 1:46:12.280 Apple Country playlists or whatever like. You know that those 1:46:12.320 --> 1:46:14.320 those things, you know, you know, really matter. I know 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:17.439 that's not the promotions that you're talking about, but um, 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:21.160 you know, I feel I feel that that we get, 1:46:21.439 --> 1:46:24.000 we get the opportunities that are appropriate to us. And 1:46:24.080 --> 1:46:26.800 what does the order? Obviously Orchard takes care of the 1:46:26.840 --> 1:46:30.840 mechanics getting all these tunes to the varying places. What 1:46:30.960 --> 1:46:34.719 might they do in terms of promotion, promotion and pitching 1:46:35.479 --> 1:46:38.600 themselves for your acts? You know, I think they probably 1:46:38.760 --> 1:46:42.840 as a you know, I think that they reinforce a 1:46:42.880 --> 1:46:45.360 lot of what it is that we're talking about. So 1:46:45.360 --> 1:46:47.679 they're they're a second voice, and we keep in constant 1:46:47.680 --> 1:46:50.559 communication with them, and they keep in constant communication with us. 1:46:50.600 --> 1:46:56.719 We're uh, you know, a very large you know label 1:46:56.960 --> 1:47:00.400 in there, you know, in their hierarchy. So know they've 1:47:00.439 --> 1:47:02.639 been they are very supportive of us, but we kind 1:47:02.640 --> 1:47:05.360 of go in in in you know, in unison. But 1:47:05.400 --> 1:47:07.479 we don't depend I mean that's just us. I mean 1:47:07.479 --> 1:47:09.439 we're big enough that we can have the staff to 1:47:09.840 --> 1:47:13.080 have the direct you know, conversations and the direct advocacy 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:14.800 and they know what it is we're doing and they 1:47:14.800 --> 1:47:17.759 reinforce and and that's great. I think where the Orchard 1:47:18.400 --> 1:47:21.479 UM is a great asset is for companies that are 1:47:21.520 --> 1:47:24.519 perhaps a little smaller and can't afford the staff. You 1:47:24.560 --> 1:47:26.439 know that we have to go in there and they go, 1:47:27.000 --> 1:47:30.559 you know, uh, you know, fight the best fight and um, 1:47:30.600 --> 1:47:32.360 you know, and again they're they're just I think they're 1:47:32.400 --> 1:47:34.920 extraordinarily good at what they do. Okay, let's just get 1:47:34.920 --> 1:47:37.120 a little history quickly so people know who you are. 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:40.680 You grew up where Lakeland, Florida, and your parents did 1:47:40.760 --> 1:47:45.080 what for a living? My dad was an engineer, not 1:47:45.080 --> 1:47:48.879 not a trained engineer, but you know, a mechanical engineer. 1:47:48.920 --> 1:47:53.120 He helped design phosphate plants, uh and things like that. 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:58.840 My mom was an artist, um and a visual artist 1:47:58.920 --> 1:48:03.679 and so she painted. She was actually the Tampa Museum 1:48:03.720 --> 1:48:07.320 of Modern Arts, uh Modern Artist of the Year in nine. 1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:09.240 But she did a lot, she did a lot of 1:48:09.240 --> 1:48:12.880 work for UM. You know, she did do graphic design 1:48:12.960 --> 1:48:15.320 for like newspapers, and and you know, like you know, 1:48:15.439 --> 1:48:18.400 she would draw, you know, like when you had models, Uh, 1:48:18.439 --> 1:48:20.280 you know, like she draw like, you know, kind of 1:48:20.280 --> 1:48:23.840 pencil drawings for ads for department stores, for to help 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:26.800 you help the newspapers. So um. So, you know, I 1:48:26.840 --> 1:48:29.800 grew up with a certain but music was never part 1:48:29.800 --> 1:48:33.280 of the the equation. I don't really know quite what 1:48:33.439 --> 1:48:36.360 happened that I became the music nut that I did, 1:48:36.400 --> 1:48:40.679 because that was not necessarily a priority in our our 1:48:41.600 --> 1:48:50.960 in our household. Okay, a couple of things. How many 1:48:51.080 --> 1:48:54.439 kids in the family? What were you like in school? 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:57.320 Were you popular, not popular? Good or bad student? And 1:48:57.360 --> 1:49:00.120 when you got into music, what kind of music were listening? 1:49:00.479 --> 1:49:03.400 So first, how many kids in the family? Five? Initially 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:06.760 my mom my parents divorced when I was eleven. My 1:49:06.800 --> 1:49:11.280 mom got remarried and I was the last of five children. Um. 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:14.479 And then when my mom got remarried seventeen years later, 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:18.719 she had my little brother, who's a wonderful guy's names Adam. 1:49:18.800 --> 1:49:21.519 But you know, and you know, so but in the 1:49:21.600 --> 1:49:23.479 in the you know, sort of the family that I 1:49:23.479 --> 1:49:28.280 grew up with five children, and uh, um, I'm sorry, 1:49:28.280 --> 1:49:31.080 what was that you asked another question. Well, it sounds 1:49:31.120 --> 1:49:33.200 like you might have gotten lost in the shuffle. But 1:49:33.280 --> 1:49:36.200 you know, at that time in one's life, it's basically 1:49:36.200 --> 1:49:38.879 about going to school. Were you a good student, bad students? 1:49:39.240 --> 1:49:41.679 I was a good student. I was a good student. 1:49:42.120 --> 1:49:44.800 Uh you know, I graduated with you know, with with 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:47.360 with honors and and yeah, I was I was a 1:49:47.360 --> 1:49:50.400 good student, and I was a very uh I was 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:53.000 a good kid, you know, but I wasn't super popular, 1:49:53.040 --> 1:49:55.040 But nor was I like unpopped. I was just sort 1:49:55.040 --> 1:49:56.960 of like there. I was just one of those people 1:49:57.040 --> 1:49:59.680 that you know, I was just kind of there and 1:49:59.720 --> 1:50:01.920 I had my group of friends, and you know, it 1:50:01.960 --> 1:50:04.759 was it was you know, I played a lot of sports. 1:50:04.760 --> 1:50:09.000 I played baseball. I'm still an enormous baseball fan. Played 1:50:09.000 --> 1:50:10.800 on the high school tennis team, and you know, I 1:50:10.880 --> 1:50:13.040 was like, I was a good athlete. I wasn't a 1:50:13.040 --> 1:50:15.000 great athe I was a pretty good tennis player actually, 1:50:15.080 --> 1:50:17.599 but uh, um, you know that was kind of my world. 1:50:17.840 --> 1:50:20.720 And um, but you know music, I was a big 1:50:20.840 --> 1:50:24.280 music fan very early. And you know how like young 1:50:24.320 --> 1:50:26.479 guys are like, you know, if you're like a young dude, 1:50:26.520 --> 1:50:29.760 you build a lot of yourself esteem around being an 1:50:29.760 --> 1:50:32.759 expert in something. And sometimes it's cars and sometimes it's sports. 1:50:32.800 --> 1:50:34.640 But music was my thing. Like it was you know, 1:50:34.760 --> 1:50:36.960 like I was the kid that knew at ten years 1:50:37.000 --> 1:50:39.160 old all the members of Black Sabbath and and you know, 1:50:39.240 --> 1:50:41.479 every year for Christmas, I'd get the Rolling Stone Record 1:50:41.520 --> 1:50:44.479 Guide or the Encyclopedia of Rock and and you know 1:50:44.880 --> 1:50:47.760 that was social capital for me. And um. When I 1:50:47.800 --> 1:50:51.920 was fifteen, uh, you know, I got a job working 1:50:51.960 --> 1:50:55.479 at a pizza place, uh, bussing tables. And in that 1:50:55.520 --> 1:50:58.479 plaza was a little, you know, a store that was 1:50:58.520 --> 1:51:01.200 part of a four store chain called Carousel Records. And 1:51:01.240 --> 1:51:04.559 I would take my my forty three dollar check you 1:51:04.600 --> 1:51:07.679 know that I made for for busting table piece of restaurant. 1:51:07.680 --> 1:51:10.400 I'd cash it at the record store at Carousel, and 1:51:10.479 --> 1:51:13.240 I basically spin. I'd save ten bucks for gas from 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:15.320 my moped to get me back and forth to work. 1:51:15.479 --> 1:51:18.600 I'd spend everything else on records and um, and I 1:51:18.680 --> 1:51:21.000 was just consumed by it. And I had a routine 1:51:21.840 --> 1:51:25.599 where every I think things like on Thursday, Rolling Stone 1:51:25.600 --> 1:51:28.720 would come out, and so every Thursday I would buy 1:51:28.800 --> 1:51:31.960 Rolling Stone and I would take buy Rolling a Rolling 1:51:32.000 --> 1:51:34.280 Stone and a knee high Peach soda. I love knee 1:51:34.320 --> 1:51:37.599 High Peach still do. And uh, and I go home 1:51:37.640 --> 1:51:39.720 and I would devour Rolling Stone and read it cover 1:51:39.800 --> 1:51:42.960 to cover and and some of the some of the 1:51:42.960 --> 1:51:45.320 formation of my musical tastes, like I'll tell you to 1:51:45.439 --> 1:51:47.439 two two artists that I now work with, and I'm 1:51:47.479 --> 1:51:50.640 still pinching myself and I remember, I remember this vis 1:51:50.760 --> 1:51:54.800 really like going to you know, reading the reviews for 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:57.599 Steve Winwood Arc of a Diver and Ricky Lee Jones 1:51:57.640 --> 1:52:00.479 Pirates and they got five star reviews. And I got 1:52:00.520 --> 1:52:02.920 on my moped and I went and I bought those 1:52:02.960 --> 1:52:06.760 records and I listened to him, and I just, Um, 1:52:06.800 --> 1:52:08.599 the fact that I now get to work with both 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:11.639 of those artists is it's a little mind blowing to me. 1:52:12.240 --> 1:52:16.600 And uh, but I I so. Then when I was fifteen, 1:52:16.680 --> 1:52:19.960 during Christmas of the year, um, I was you know 1:52:20.000 --> 1:52:22.519 the store manager. Her name was Laura Harold, and you know, 1:52:22.560 --> 1:52:24.439 we developed a friendship because I was in there all 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:29.240 the time. It was very tiny store, and she was 1:52:29.240 --> 1:52:32.320 complaining that her person that was gonna you know it 1:52:32.400 --> 1:52:35.160 was interviewing for for Christmas help didn't show up for 1:52:35.200 --> 1:52:38.080 the interview, and I was like, well, do I get 1:52:38.080 --> 1:52:40.559 a discount if I work here? And she was like, 1:52:40.600 --> 1:52:42.680 well for the time you work here, sure, and and 1:52:42.760 --> 1:52:44.840 so I was like, well, if you'll have me, I'll 1:52:44.880 --> 1:52:47.519 do it. And that's how I got my start in 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:50.439 the music business. And then after Christmas, I was expecting 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:53.120 to be you know, let go and and and all that. 1:52:53.200 --> 1:52:55.400 But the person who was there, her full time person. 1:52:56.000 --> 1:52:58.760 They're left and so I mean I was still in 1:52:58.840 --> 1:53:02.519 high school, but like I arranged my schedule so like 1:53:02.600 --> 1:53:05.200 I was like after school, I went straight to the 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:08.840 record store and I would work weekends, but I became 1:53:08.920 --> 1:53:12.400 the you know, the full time person there. And Laura 1:53:12.479 --> 1:53:15.599 was a huge influence on me in terms of my music. 1:53:15.640 --> 1:53:17.720 She was a huge David David Bowie fan and a 1:53:17.800 --> 1:53:22.040 huge Kate Bush fan and um, and she really opened 1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:24.000 me up to all kinds of music that you know, 1:53:24.000 --> 1:53:25.800 if you're a fifteen year old kid, you know, it's like, 1:53:25.840 --> 1:53:27.559 I mean I still love some of those bands, but 1:53:27.640 --> 1:53:30.440 you know, you listen to radio, it was Ario Speedwagon 1:53:30.520 --> 1:53:32.320 and things like that, and you know, and I got 1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:34.720 all kinds of love for for you know, Journey and 1:53:34.800 --> 1:53:36.880 are Speedwagon all that but it really opened me up 1:53:36.920 --> 1:53:39.840 to a wider variety of music. And I just I 1:53:39.840 --> 1:53:42.360 would just spend everything that I made on records, you know, 1:53:42.439 --> 1:53:45.000 I just I would. I had a little basket on 1:53:45.040 --> 1:53:47.040 the back of my moped and I'd strapped my albums 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:49.719 in and I'd go home and I just you know, devoured. 1:53:49.760 --> 1:53:51.680 I've just always been a huge, you know, music fan. 1:53:51.720 --> 1:53:53.759 And then you know, I went to work for Specs 1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:56.519 when Carousel closed down, and I just I did record 1:53:56.560 --> 1:53:59.920 retail till I was twenty one. Okay, so you graduated 1:54:00.120 --> 1:54:03.320 my school, you were going to college at that point. Yeah, 1:54:03.360 --> 1:54:06.000 Well I went to the Community Polk Community College in 1:54:06.000 --> 1:54:09.920 in winter Haven, but I when I was eighteen, I graduated, 1:54:10.120 --> 1:54:13.559 uh like basically less than a month after my seventeenth birthday. 1:54:13.760 --> 1:54:17.120 Um and um. So I went to community college. But 1:54:17.240 --> 1:54:20.640 I I didn't know what a music business was, but 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:23.280 I knew that it wasn't in Lakeland, Florida, and so 1:54:23.360 --> 1:54:27.960 I made the decision to move to Atlanta because whatever 1:54:28.000 --> 1:54:30.400 the music business was, well, I actually had a point 1:54:30.400 --> 1:54:32.720 of access there. There was a guy named Doug Wiley 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:35.840 who was a salesperson for what was Important and that 1:54:35.840 --> 1:54:39.440 that that then became read and like he would sell 1:54:39.640 --> 1:54:42.360 like I would actually buy some and stuff. I was 1:54:42.400 --> 1:54:45.000 fifteen years old and like buying you know records. Laurel 1:54:45.400 --> 1:54:50.040 let me, you know, do that. And so he was like, uh, 1:54:50.240 --> 1:54:52.280 the cool guy that lived in the big city that 1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:54.760 like worked with all these you know, like I would 1:54:54.800 --> 1:54:57.640 talk to about all these cool records and so, um, 1:54:58.200 --> 1:55:00.280 you know, I moved up to Atlanta. I got a 1:55:00.360 --> 1:55:04.080 job working at Record Bar. Um I was living in 1:55:04.120 --> 1:55:06.920 an apartment. I remember this. It was three d nine 1:55:07.040 --> 1:55:11.960 dollars a month. And what year we am, uh nineteen 1:55:12.320 --> 1:55:19.280 eighty uh four or three three maybe, and uh, but 1:55:19.400 --> 1:55:21.720 I lived in an apartment. It was three dollars a month. 1:55:21.760 --> 1:55:24.600 And I remember that because um, I was so poor 1:55:25.120 --> 1:55:29.400 that I uh, you know basically that it was a 1:55:29.440 --> 1:55:32.040 two bedroom apartment. And the deal we made was the 1:55:32.040 --> 1:55:34.240 two guys paid a hundred and fifty dollars and they 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:36.880 got the bedrooms and I paid ninety dollars and slept 1:55:36.880 --> 1:55:39.680 on the couch. But but it gave me a way 1:55:39.680 --> 1:55:42.280 to be around it all. And then you know, I 1:55:42.320 --> 1:55:44.720 was working at Record Bar and Lennox and that was 1:55:44.960 --> 1:55:47.360 at the time when you know, there was Billboard report 1:55:47.400 --> 1:55:50.879 you know that was you know, stores would report to Billboard, 1:55:50.920 --> 1:55:52.840 and I was. I wound up, you know, work at 1:55:52.840 --> 1:55:54.720 the store and became the singles buyer. So I was 1:55:54.760 --> 1:55:57.760 doing the singles Billboard charts, so that by access to 1:55:58.200 --> 1:56:02.880 label people, as you could guess, was expanded greatly. And 1:56:02.960 --> 1:56:06.680 so I just kind of, you know, politely harangued people 1:56:06.720 --> 1:56:09.600 about like getting a job at a label, and uh, 1:56:09.680 --> 1:56:11.800 I wound up starting at A and M Records as 1:56:12.000 --> 1:56:15.000 as a seventy five dollar a week in turn. And 1:56:15.120 --> 1:56:16.480 that was at the time when they were you know, 1:56:16.480 --> 1:56:18.960 it was like R C, A Arista, and A and M. 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:22.520 We're all together in a distribution group. And I loved 1:56:22.560 --> 1:56:25.160 my time at A and M. Karen Glauber, I worked 1:56:25.240 --> 1:56:28.600 under Karen Glauber, was one of Karen's kids, and it 1:56:28.720 --> 1:56:32.040 was a great start. But then, you know, uh, and 1:56:32.080 --> 1:56:33.960 everything at A and M. They were like the first 1:56:34.000 --> 1:56:36.520 time I ever saw an Apple computer was at A 1:56:36.560 --> 1:56:38.920 and M. They always drank the best wine and all 1:56:38.920 --> 1:56:41.680 this stuff. But uh, you know, I went down the 1:56:41.680 --> 1:56:44.200 hall and I'd see the airs to people and they 1:56:44.240 --> 1:56:48.600 had like, you know dent you know, dented file cabinets, 1:56:48.600 --> 1:56:50.200 and I don't know if you know Linda Alter, if 1:56:50.200 --> 1:56:53.440 you knew her, legendary promotion person. And they were like 1:56:53.800 --> 1:56:55.920 yelling at people and tearing their hair out, but they 1:56:55.920 --> 1:57:00.240 were breaking records like crazy. And I was like, I 1:57:00.320 --> 1:57:02.240 want to go where it's kind of like. And so 1:57:02.320 --> 1:57:07.280 they hired me, uh Candy uh Barry uh. Candice Berry, 1:57:07.320 --> 1:57:11.200 who eventually went on to do sales at Interscope, you know, 1:57:11.280 --> 1:57:14.800 hired me as as as the basically the office assistant. 1:57:14.840 --> 1:57:16.600 I was low man on the totem pole. I made 1:57:16.800 --> 1:57:19.960 two hundred dollars of weeks therefore ten thousand, four hundred dollars, 1:57:19.960 --> 1:57:22.680 which for me was actually a pay raise. And uh 1:57:22.720 --> 1:57:24.960 and then I just I you know, like it was 1:57:25.000 --> 1:57:27.160 right when the Whitney Houston record came out, and it 1:57:27.200 --> 1:57:29.440 was like Kenny g and Tony Braxton. So I was 1:57:29.480 --> 1:57:32.600 around all of that and and so you know, operating 1:57:32.600 --> 1:57:35.120 in that environment, I really learned you know a lot 1:57:35.400 --> 1:57:38.480 and and uh and even though I was like many 1:57:38.560 --> 1:57:42.240 many many levels below Clive Davis, um, you know, I was, 1:57:42.360 --> 1:57:45.800 I was involved enough to you know, one thing that 1:57:45.920 --> 1:57:48.880 one thing about Clive that I really appreciated was his 1:57:48.920 --> 1:57:51.680 attention to detail. It was very important, Like he knew 1:57:51.720 --> 1:57:54.640 what was going on with the Deborah Cox record in Providence, 1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:57.200 and if the right things weren't happening, then he it 1:57:57.240 --> 1:57:59.200 was just like go fix it, you know. And his 1:57:59.400 --> 1:58:02.120 level to detail and breaking artists, it was. It was 1:58:02.160 --> 1:58:04.800 a great lesson and something I've carried, you know, with me. 1:58:04.880 --> 1:58:07.040 But that was sort of like how, you know, how 1:58:07.080 --> 1:58:09.960 I became, you know, how I got my label gig 1:58:10.080 --> 1:58:12.680 and then I you know, I spent the next fifteen years, 1:58:13.400 --> 1:58:15.600 you know, twelve of the fifteen years at Arista, both 1:58:15.600 --> 1:58:18.080 in the Pop in the in the Country division. You know, 1:58:18.160 --> 1:58:20.640 I had a couple other gigs along the way, but um, 1:58:20.800 --> 1:58:23.200 but the majority the way these were there, these were 1:58:23.240 --> 1:58:26.600 promotion or sales, sales. It was always on the sales 1:58:26.600 --> 1:58:29.520 and retail into things and and so. And then I 1:58:29.560 --> 1:58:32.520 worked for the Nashville division under Tim Dubos and Mike Dungan, 1:58:32.880 --> 1:58:35.640 and you know that was a great object lesson too, 1:58:35.680 --> 1:58:39.680 because you know, the level of performance was so high 1:58:39.720 --> 1:58:41.440 in our batting average was so high. But they were 1:58:41.520 --> 1:58:45.400 very kind and loving people. You know, I won't name names, 1:58:45.440 --> 1:58:47.800 but you know when I worked for Arista and the 1:58:47.800 --> 1:58:49.720 Pop division, I was up and I got promoted up 1:58:49.720 --> 1:58:52.320 to the New York office, and it was kind of 1:58:52.320 --> 1:58:54.440 a rough environment and there were times where I was like, 1:58:54.840 --> 1:58:58.200 you know, I'm not sure that I'm you know, you know, 1:58:58.280 --> 1:58:59.560 I was like, I'm not sure that I want to 1:58:59.600 --> 1:59:03.080 be or around. Uh. You know. It was just a 1:59:03.200 --> 1:59:06.720 very tough environment. And not that I'm not a tough person, 1:59:06.800 --> 1:59:08.720 but it was just, you know, I think there was 1:59:08.840 --> 1:59:11.200 you know, there was I think the level of drug use, 1:59:11.240 --> 1:59:12.720 I think the level of you know, it's just it 1:59:12.800 --> 1:59:14.440 was just not it was it was for a small 1:59:14.480 --> 1:59:17.200 town guy from the South, it was it was. It 1:59:17.240 --> 1:59:19.240 was a tough adjustment. But you know, but like I 1:59:19.280 --> 1:59:24.120 went to work for Nashville and you know, the just 1:59:24.320 --> 1:59:28.080 I mean we were breaking artists and Tim do Waugh 1:59:28.160 --> 1:59:30.600 was a loving person. I remember the first time that 1:59:30.680 --> 1:59:32.880 I met him. It was at backstage before I started. 1:59:32.880 --> 1:59:36.400 They had hired me but I hadn't started yet, and 1:59:36.440 --> 1:59:38.920 Tim said to me before I left, you know, because 1:59:38.920 --> 1:59:41.560 we were wrapping up, we're having a conversation and and 1:59:41.600 --> 1:59:44.440 he said, well, Mr, welcome to the family. And then 1:59:44.440 --> 1:59:46.000 he poked me in the chest and he goes and 1:59:46.040 --> 1:59:48.880 I want you to remember this is a family. And 1:59:48.960 --> 1:59:52.280 he was basically putting me on notice that like, you know, 1:59:53.160 --> 1:59:56.680 you're expected to comport yourself with you know, with loving kindness, 1:59:56.680 --> 1:59:59.320 even even though he didn't use those terms. And that 1:59:59.400 --> 2:00:01.760 was the way that they acted it. But but like 2:00:01.800 --> 2:00:04.920 it didn't, it didn't, they didn't let up. It wasn't 2:00:04.960 --> 2:00:08.640 like it. You know, love wasn't uh you know, it wasn't. 2:00:08.960 --> 2:00:11.240 It wasn't a sign of weakness, you know. I mean 2:00:11.240 --> 2:00:14.160 one of my favorite books of all time is Martin 2:00:14.240 --> 2:00:16.960 Luther King's Strength to Love For and I recommended to 2:00:17.000 --> 2:00:21.200 everybody because you know, love is you know, it gave 2:00:21.240 --> 2:00:24.920 me the intellectual framework to know that, you know, love 2:00:25.160 --> 2:00:28.839 is is actually strength. It's not it's not a weakness. 2:00:29.240 --> 2:00:31.240 So what is your last job and how does it 2:00:31.280 --> 2:00:35.080 in working for the labels? I worked at Giant Records. Uh. 2:00:35.120 --> 2:00:38.200 I was the head of sales with uh, you know, 2:00:38.280 --> 2:00:42.520 with uh you know, for for Giants Nashville division. Um, 2:00:42.960 --> 2:00:45.120 you know, I found my way out of Arista, you 2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:47.920 know when they you know, when when they merged uh 2:00:48.000 --> 2:00:50.200 with our ci A and they just didn't need duplicate 2:00:50.240 --> 2:00:54.640 sales staff. So you know, I respect Joe Gilanni, you know, immensely, 2:00:54.680 --> 2:00:56.400 but it's just you know, it's a business decision. It 2:00:56.440 --> 2:00:59.600 was nothing, no disrespect or anything like that to me. 2:00:59.640 --> 2:01:03.440 And and but uh, but so I wound up running 2:01:03.480 --> 2:01:05.800 giants sales and marketing division. But it was right as 2:01:05.920 --> 2:01:07.960 I mean, basically, I set my bags down, and it 2:01:08.040 --> 2:01:10.400 was like, well, you know, you know, I'm hearing rumors 2:01:10.440 --> 2:01:12.200 that Irving is going to sell the company, and so 2:01:12.240 --> 2:01:14.520 I was like, oh boy, here we go again. And 2:01:14.600 --> 2:01:17.920 so um so when I left there, I was just like, 2:01:17.960 --> 2:01:20.280 do I want to like hop back on this treadmill again? 2:01:20.320 --> 2:01:23.360 It seemed like the trend was really going towards people 2:01:23.400 --> 2:01:27.000 getting laid off and downsizing because we were starting the 2:01:27.040 --> 2:01:29.720 sort of inevitable decline at you know, with the post 2:01:29.720 --> 2:01:32.520 c D you know boom we were, you know, revenues 2:01:32.520 --> 2:01:37.200 were dropping and people were seeking efficiencies. And I thought 2:01:37.320 --> 2:01:39.880 very hard about what I wanted to do and how 2:01:39.920 --> 2:01:42.120 I was going to respond to that. And I thought, well, 2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:44.600 if I go to some small label that's only going 2:01:44.640 --> 2:01:46.520 to have like one or two artists and they're paying 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:51.080 me seventy five thousand dollars a year, um, like what 2:01:51.120 --> 2:01:53.320 am I gonna? I mean, like, I do everything that 2:01:53.360 --> 2:01:54.840 I could think of for that with those one or 2:01:54.880 --> 2:01:57.280 two artists, but I'd run out of things pretty quick. 2:01:57.320 --> 2:01:59.720 And and it's not and my even my presence, there 2:01:59.800 --> 2:02:03.800 is an inefficiency that will help, uh make the country, 2:02:03.800 --> 2:02:06.360 the company less viable. So rather than you know, so 2:02:06.400 --> 2:02:10.240 I decided and I started this company with a partner, 2:02:10.240 --> 2:02:12.200 deb Markland, who I worked with at Ariston, And the 2:02:12.240 --> 2:02:16.080 general idea was, rather than get somebody to you know, 2:02:16.120 --> 2:02:19.360 pay me or us, uh, you know, seventy five dollars, 2:02:19.400 --> 2:02:22.400 let's get ten people to hire us for seventy. That 2:02:22.440 --> 2:02:24.160 way we'll be busy all the time. It will be 2:02:24.200 --> 2:02:26.920 safer for us because one or two things go away, 2:02:27.320 --> 2:02:30.120 we still got income. But also the fact that we're 2:02:30.160 --> 2:02:33.640 doing this makes all of those entities more viable. And 2:02:33.640 --> 2:02:35.560 and you know, so that's part of my sort of 2:02:35.600 --> 2:02:39.480 business orientation, thinking about you know, sort of like you know, 2:02:39.560 --> 2:02:43.120 how can things be done in a sustainable fashion? And 2:02:43.200 --> 2:02:45.640 so you know, that's how we started. And we started 2:02:45.680 --> 2:02:49.520 just as a straight consultancy. But then you know, Ken Antonelli, 2:02:49.600 --> 2:02:52.360 who has been so important in my professional life during 2:02:52.600 --> 2:02:55.560 in so many ways. But he came to me and 2:02:55.640 --> 2:02:57.160 was like, man, we love the work you do. You 2:02:57.240 --> 2:02:59.440 prepare our sales reps, to go in and they know 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:01.080 what they're talking king about. So we want you to 2:03:01.080 --> 2:03:03.720 bring everything to us, you know, we want you to 2:03:03.800 --> 2:03:05.720 do all your work through us. And it was like, well, 2:03:06.480 --> 2:03:08.760 and this was a year before Spotify, I mean before 2:03:09.000 --> 2:03:11.920 iTunes started, So if you didn't have distribution, you were 2:03:12.120 --> 2:03:14.680 you know, you were screwed. And so I I but 2:03:14.760 --> 2:03:18.200 I understood stood that, like access to distribution was an 2:03:18.200 --> 2:03:22.360 existential issue, and so what I said to him was like, Okay, 2:03:22.360 --> 2:03:25.840 well let's do like a kind of an aggregator thing. 2:03:25.880 --> 2:03:28.760 You signed me. I'll take the financial I'll take the 2:03:28.840 --> 2:03:32.800 risk of the responsibility, but like, let me if if 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:37.360 I can bestow distribution on a client, then that gives 2:03:37.400 --> 2:03:41.560 me more um importance to them. And so so that's 2:03:41.560 --> 2:03:44.840 the way we set everything up. And that's what I've 2:03:44.840 --> 2:03:47.320 been doing for the last twenty years. Kenny was running 2:03:47.320 --> 2:03:52.000 red which morphed into the orchard. That's how that relationship. Yes, okay, 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:56.080 are you married, Yes, have any children? No? You do 2:03:56.200 --> 2:03:58.840 not have a children. No children. I've never been able 2:03:58.880 --> 2:04:01.840 to convince anybody how many times you've been married three. 2:04:02.240 --> 2:04:06.600 Nobody likes a quitter. When you started this business twenty 2:04:06.680 --> 2:04:08.920 years ago, were you married to the president. Why for 2:04:09.080 --> 2:04:11.800 that was before this No, actually, well that's an interesting story. 2:04:11.840 --> 2:04:15.800 When I started this business. Um. Uh actually, I'm glad 2:04:15.840 --> 2:04:17.840 you're bringing this up because it gives me an opportunity 2:04:17.880 --> 2:04:22.160 to talk about Nancy Quinn, who is the number two 2:04:22.160 --> 2:04:26.520 person in our company. Um, Nancy, Um, we were married 2:04:26.520 --> 2:04:30.480 at the time. Shortly after the company started, we became 2:04:31.080 --> 2:04:34.280 not married and um, and you know, we took a 2:04:34.280 --> 2:04:36.160 couple of years to kind of heal up. But you know, 2:04:36.200 --> 2:04:39.600 I've met Nancy through worked. I mean she worked for 2:04:39.640 --> 2:04:42.960 BMG Distribution. I worked for Arista and we were like 2:04:43.160 --> 2:04:48.080 colleagues and friends before we got romantically involved. And you know, 2:04:48.160 --> 2:04:50.480 then when you know, and after a little bit of 2:04:50.520 --> 2:04:53.280 time to heal up, all that I needed as the 2:04:53.320 --> 2:04:55.840 company was growing, um, you know, and she had found 2:04:55.880 --> 2:04:58.760 her way out of the company or out of the 2:04:59.000 --> 2:05:01.800 of the position and that she was in before. I mean, 2:05:01.800 --> 2:05:04.280 she's one of the most She's one of the hardest working, 2:05:05.040 --> 2:05:09.320 just down to earth, like solid record people, you know. 2:05:09.440 --> 2:05:11.280 You know. So I was like, you know, it's like, well, life, 2:05:11.320 --> 2:05:13.360 I hope I'm making a healthy decision here, but like 2:05:13.440 --> 2:05:15.560 she's one of the best people that I know, and 2:05:15.600 --> 2:05:20.800 so we started working together again. And um and she 2:05:21.040 --> 2:05:24.320 is she's she's she's the number two person in this company. 2:05:24.400 --> 2:05:28.840 And um and she's she's the she's the one that 2:05:28.960 --> 2:05:33.960 really helps promote structure and organization. I mean, I'm you know, 2:05:34.000 --> 2:05:38.440 I'm a good business person. I am actually reasonably organized. 2:05:38.480 --> 2:05:42.160 But I'm also my fascination is with you know, artists 2:05:42.200 --> 2:05:45.080 and narrative and building relationships and talking about this. Nancy 2:05:45.160 --> 2:05:47.280 is the one that makes sure that all the contracts 2:05:47.280 --> 2:05:50.080 get signed. You know, She's the one that helps me 2:05:50.200 --> 2:05:53.320 think through the structure of the company. And and and 2:05:53.400 --> 2:05:57.320 it's just you know, so um so it's yeah, so 2:05:57.720 --> 2:06:01.760 Nancy was, um, you know, she was, you know, my 2:06:01.760 --> 2:06:05.000 my second wife. But also she's um, you know, still 2:06:05.000 --> 2:06:07.920 in my life and in an integral part of everything 2:06:07.960 --> 2:06:10.520 we do at thirty Tigers. That begs the question the 2:06:10.600 --> 2:06:15.120 third wife. Um, well, I did an album. Uh uh 2:06:16.720 --> 2:06:20.200 you know, I did an album in two thousand four 2:06:20.680 --> 2:06:25.080 along with uh two uh you know partners in crime, 2:06:25.160 --> 2:06:30.120 Steve Fishel and Tamra Saviano. Um. I had this idea 2:06:30.120 --> 2:06:33.520 about doing an album of Stephen Foster's music, or doing 2:06:33.560 --> 2:06:35.440 an album of Stephen Foster's music. For those of you 2:06:35.480 --> 2:06:38.880 who don't know Stephen Foster's you know, I think one 2:06:38.880 --> 2:06:41.800 of the five most important people in in American musical history. 2:06:41.840 --> 2:06:44.960 He was the first person to be a famous songwriter. 2:06:45.560 --> 2:06:51.640 And he um he did um he wrote, Oh Susannah 2:06:51.920 --> 2:06:54.840 Camptown Races, a dream of Genie with the light brown hair, 2:06:55.640 --> 2:06:57.480 just like a multitude of songs that are in the 2:06:57.520 --> 2:07:00.400 in the in the American Canon of song songs. But 2:07:01.040 --> 2:07:06.280 he um. He became famous his early you know hits 2:07:06.280 --> 2:07:10.600 Oh Susannah and um uh. And I'm getting around to 2:07:11.600 --> 2:07:14.680 Judith in a second. But I promised, but the the 2:07:15.440 --> 2:07:17.360 but I was at the time I was attending when 2:07:17.360 --> 2:07:19.600 I went back to school to do the pre law thing, 2:07:19.600 --> 2:07:23.040 I was attended a historically black university. So I was 2:07:23.080 --> 2:07:26.400 in Africana studies class, and I was thinking about, you know, 2:07:26.400 --> 2:07:29.320 we're talking about white appropriation of black culture. And I 2:07:29.360 --> 2:07:31.360 grew up in Florida where you know our state song 2:07:31.440 --> 2:07:34.640 with Swansee River and we I grew up singing out 2:07:34.640 --> 2:07:37.040 of a Stephen Foster songbook when I was in pre 2:07:37.160 --> 2:07:40.440 K and all that, and so um, he kind of 2:07:40.480 --> 2:07:44.760 had an outsized um, you know place in my musical 2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:48.920 uh consciousness but he um. But it was interesting because 2:07:48.960 --> 2:07:52.000 he his first hit songs were basically songs that were 2:07:52.240 --> 2:07:55.640 written for the minstrel stage. Oh Susanna and Count Camptown Residute, 2:07:55.800 --> 2:07:59.560 his first two famous songs, which basically minstrel ry was 2:07:59.560 --> 2:08:04.160 was essentially white whites appropriating black culture, you know then, 2:08:04.160 --> 2:08:06.280 and so I got the idea of and and also 2:08:06.320 --> 2:08:10.800 Stephen Foster sort of lost um he became he went 2:08:10.920 --> 2:08:14.120 got consigned to the back burner of public consciousness in 2:08:14.200 --> 2:08:17.480 the seventies with the advent of a more um uh 2:08:17.520 --> 2:08:19.960 you know, when when we were more became more conscious 2:08:20.000 --> 2:08:23.440 about race issues. And you know, he would use the 2:08:23.560 --> 2:08:25.480 N word and songs and he would use the word 2:08:25.640 --> 2:08:28.200 Darkian songs. And so it occurred to me that his 2:08:28.320 --> 2:08:33.320 whole arc of of you know, rising into the public 2:08:33.360 --> 2:08:37.000 consciousness and then fading from it was all bracketed by race. 2:08:37.280 --> 2:08:39.840 And I just felt compelled to tell that story. And 2:08:39.840 --> 2:08:41.480 I'd never I mean, all I did was sell, you know, 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:43.400 like I said, we sell records to Walmart. I've never 2:08:43.440 --> 2:08:47.320 tried to do anything like this before. But I wanted 2:08:47.360 --> 2:08:49.680 to tell that story. And and so I, you know, 2:08:49.720 --> 2:08:51.760 with the help of Like I said, Stephen Tamer, we 2:08:52.160 --> 2:08:55.240 you know, we told that story. And then Tamer was 2:08:55.280 --> 2:08:59.640 friends with with with Judith and and uh and suggested 2:08:59.720 --> 2:09:02.280 her as an artist on the record. So we met 2:09:02.320 --> 2:09:07.120 through she was a she's a recovering singer songwriter. Uh 2:09:07.120 --> 2:09:10.720 and uh so she she was on on that record 2:09:10.720 --> 2:09:15.720 and we met through that. How many employees at thirty Tigers. Uh, 2:09:16.920 --> 2:09:22.160 I own the majority of it, but we have um 2:09:22.400 --> 2:09:25.400 um I own about eighty percent of it, and then 2:09:25.440 --> 2:09:32.680 the other is split between present and former employees and 2:09:32.880 --> 2:09:38.160 uh um and uh. Well and also you know the 2:09:38.880 --> 2:09:40.480 you know the I don't know if you ever knew 2:09:40.520 --> 2:09:43.480 Bob Goldstone did you ever know him? Okay, he was 2:09:43.520 --> 2:09:47.200 a legendary sales guy and everything he was. We lost 2:09:47.240 --> 2:09:51.760 him unfortunately in a in a bicycling accident in um 2:09:51.760 --> 2:09:54.440 and his his widow owns a you know his you 2:09:54.440 --> 2:09:57.440 know his his portion of it and uh and uh 2:09:57.560 --> 2:09:59.120 you know, with the success of the company, one of 2:09:59.120 --> 2:10:01.920 my favorite things is is knowing that his work and 2:10:02.000 --> 2:10:06.160 his contribution sustains or does the sustain I mean contributes 2:10:06.200 --> 2:10:09.400 to sustaining his family, and that makes me feel fantastic. 2:10:09.440 --> 2:10:12.480 He was a lovely guy, Why thirty tigers? Where's the 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:18.960 name come from? Well? I back in so we used 2:10:18.960 --> 2:10:22.560 to be called Emergent Music Marketing. Um, I didn't love 2:10:22.600 --> 2:10:24.200 the name, but it was it was our name. And 2:10:24.920 --> 2:10:26.640 we got a cease and desist order. There used to 2:10:26.680 --> 2:10:30.000 be a label called Emergent with an Eye and uh. 2:10:30.240 --> 2:10:32.360 They sent us a cease and desist letter. As we 2:10:32.440 --> 2:10:35.480 became more label like and we were distributing and things 2:10:35.520 --> 2:10:38.120 like that, and my attorney called me and said, well, 2:10:38.160 --> 2:10:40.040 we got this thing, and so you have two choices. 2:10:40.920 --> 2:10:43.240 Either we can you can pay me a lot of 2:10:43.280 --> 2:10:45.120 money to fight this and we'll lose, or you can 2:10:45.120 --> 2:10:49.120 give up now. And so I was like give up now. Uh. 2:10:49.160 --> 2:10:51.040 And then and and so we were trying to come 2:10:51.080 --> 2:10:52.600 you know, we had to come up with another, another 2:10:52.720 --> 2:10:54.560 name and do it pretty quickly. And at the time, 2:10:55.200 --> 2:10:57.400 now this was back when Nashville was solely this is 2:10:57.440 --> 2:10:59.760 before the Black Keys got here and Jack White got here. 2:10:59.800 --> 2:11:02.720 So we were strictly like a a country in Christian 2:11:02.800 --> 2:11:05.280 music town and that was about it. So there's anything 2:11:05.320 --> 2:11:07.600 off the beaten path, I'd get the call. And so 2:11:07.640 --> 2:11:10.360 an attorney called me and wanted there was an opera 2:11:10.360 --> 2:11:12.280 singer that she was working with that needed a business 2:11:12.320 --> 2:11:16.880 plan written for a Doctor Seuss opera, and uh, so 2:11:16.920 --> 2:11:18.960 I was all immersed at the at the very moment 2:11:19.040 --> 2:11:23.040 in the world of Dr Seuss, and he uh had 2:11:23.040 --> 2:11:25.920 a book called I Can Lick thirty Tigers Today, and 2:11:25.960 --> 2:11:28.880 I thought, I don't know, it just popped into my head, 2:11:29.320 --> 2:11:31.520 like and I while checking with my trademark attorney to 2:11:31.560 --> 2:11:32.840 make sure I wasn't going to get sued by the 2:11:32.840 --> 2:11:35.919 Sieus estate, but you know, I thought, being thirty tigers, 2:11:36.000 --> 2:11:39.680 that sounds like mysterious and powerful and uh and there 2:11:39.720 --> 2:11:41.840 was some dissension in some of the older people in 2:11:41.880 --> 2:11:43.560 the company were like, I don't know, that feels kind 2:11:43.560 --> 2:11:45.240 of weird. But at the time, we were working right 2:11:45.280 --> 2:11:48.640 above Grimes, and I went downtown or downstairs and asked 2:11:48.640 --> 2:11:50.280 all the young people that worked at Grimes, and I 2:11:50.320 --> 2:11:51.400 was like, what do you think of that name? And 2:11:51.400 --> 2:11:53.320 they were like, oh, we love it. And I was like, okay, 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:56.480 funk it, We're going with that. So how we became 2:11:56.520 --> 2:11:59.240 thirty Tigers? You know? So I and I still love 2:11:59.280 --> 2:12:02.200 the name, so okay, just a couple more questions. How 2:12:02.200 --> 2:12:06.640 many acts on thirty Tigers roster? At this point hard 2:12:06.680 --> 2:12:10.800 to say. Um, you know, most artists, I mean we 2:12:10.800 --> 2:12:14.840 we put out about fifty records a year, assuming that 2:12:14.920 --> 2:12:18.000 there's a uh you know, most artists are working on 2:12:18.000 --> 2:12:21.760 a two year album cycle. Um, you know, I would 2:12:21.800 --> 2:12:24.920 say that the number is probably in and around a hundred. 2:12:25.000 --> 2:12:28.880 But again, like you know, artists aren't. It's kind of 2:12:28.920 --> 2:12:30.640 like a record by record type of thing. I mean, 2:12:30.640 --> 2:12:33.360 if if you know they're they're not locked into deal. 2:12:33.480 --> 2:12:36.120 So if somebody is gonna you know, feels like something 2:12:36.120 --> 2:12:37.640 else is better, we may or may you know, we 2:12:37.640 --> 2:12:39.560 may or may not know whether or not they're gonna 2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:42.000 do it until they do it. But um, I would 2:12:42.040 --> 2:12:45.360 say my best guest is probably around a hundred. Okay, 2:12:45.440 --> 2:12:49.840 final question. Jason Isabel put out an album at the 2:12:49.920 --> 2:12:53.680 beginning of the pandemic when everybody was locked up at home. 2:12:54.240 --> 2:12:57.080 There was a lot of ink on it, you know, 2:12:57.360 --> 2:13:01.400 in terms of making the record. Convention wisdom is that 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:05.760 it underperformed commercially and people said it wasn't a good 2:13:05.800 --> 2:13:09.760 time because he couldn't go out and promote it. Was 2:13:09.880 --> 2:13:13.760 that the case that really you need the road component 2:13:13.840 --> 2:13:15.840 and all those other things to have a d percent 2:13:15.960 --> 2:13:19.480 success or is that a vision that's incorrect now, I mean, 2:13:19.880 --> 2:13:23.200 it sure helps, and he's such a compelling you know, 2:13:23.320 --> 2:13:26.760 live act UM. But I also think Jason under you know, 2:13:26.840 --> 2:13:29.720 he understood that. I mean I remember this being a 2:13:29.800 --> 2:13:35.760 point of conversation at the time. He understood that, you know, 2:13:35.880 --> 2:13:38.800 kind of what he was up against. UM. But he's 2:13:38.840 --> 2:13:42.080 done well enough in his career that the motivations were 2:13:42.200 --> 2:13:47.000 for him were to UM have music that would be 2:13:47.480 --> 2:13:51.040 uh um sort of a psychic sav to his fans. 2:13:51.680 --> 2:13:54.400 And also, UM, we did a lot of work in 2:13:54.480 --> 2:13:58.280 terms of trying to um do things with indie retail. 2:13:58.320 --> 2:14:00.320 I mean, if you remember, we released that out a 2:14:00.360 --> 2:14:03.280 week early to indie retail, and we talked to it 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:07.000 to our DSP partners and explained, you know, the situations 2:14:07.160 --> 2:14:09.080 is no disrespect to you guys, but you know this 2:14:09.160 --> 2:14:11.600 is important to you know, Jason to be able to 2:14:11.640 --> 2:14:13.680 do this, and we we didn't hear. I mean, they 2:14:13.760 --> 2:14:17.960 we had nothing but their support and understanding. And so UM, 2:14:18.000 --> 2:14:21.720 I don't think that you know the motivations for Jason 2:14:22.240 --> 2:14:25.440 at that point. I mean, sure, I mean, everybody wants 2:14:25.440 --> 2:14:27.400 their record to do as well as they possibly can. 2:14:27.480 --> 2:14:30.720 But I think he he and his incredibly great manager, 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:34.040 Tracy Thomas, understood the that the you know, that they 2:14:34.040 --> 2:14:37.760 were wandering into some you know, difficulties when it came 2:14:37.800 --> 2:14:41.000 to know marketing and the ultimate success of the record, 2:14:41.040 --> 2:14:44.400 but chose to move forward anyways because Jason's you know, 2:14:44.560 --> 2:14:47.160 he's doing great. He's a very successful artist, and so 2:14:47.240 --> 2:14:49.880 he could make that choice. Okay, David, I think we've 2:14:49.880 --> 2:14:52.480 come to the end of the feeling we've known. You're 2:14:52.520 --> 2:14:56.440 quite the rack and tour and very informative and insightful 2:14:56.480 --> 2:14:58.520 in terms of the business. I want to thank you 2:14:58.600 --> 2:15:00.680 so much for doing this. Well, I want to thank 2:15:00.680 --> 2:15:04.320 you right back because I've enjoyed this thoroughly and um 2:15:04.400 --> 2:15:06.640 and again you this isn't the first time that you know, 2:15:06.680 --> 2:15:10.120 when I've expressed myself that you've amplified, you know, my 2:15:10.240 --> 2:15:13.000 views to the world. And I really appreciate it. And 2:15:13.000 --> 2:15:15.880 and also I think that again, like I really, um, 2:15:16.520 --> 2:15:18.720 you know, I feel like you're a conduit for I 2:15:19.040 --> 2:15:22.040 learned a lot from listening, especially the podcasts. I mean, 2:15:22.080 --> 2:15:26.080 I love your newsletter, but the podcasts and and uh, 2:15:26.120 --> 2:15:28.360 you know, hearing hearing what some of the you know, 2:15:28.400 --> 2:15:30.560 the titans of industry or the you know, artists that 2:15:30.760 --> 2:15:33.360 you know that participate, you know their viewpoints. I mean, 2:15:33.400 --> 2:15:36.160 I just learned so much. So I I hope, uh 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:39.840 that I'm paying that forward to some people and if 2:15:39.840 --> 2:15:43.080 they can you know, um, you know, learn anything from 2:15:43.080 --> 2:15:45.560 my experience, then that it would make me feel great. 2:15:45.600 --> 2:15:47.760 But I've I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, so thank you 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:50.000 so much for having me. Well, you definitely paid it 2:15:50.040 --> 2:15:52.560 for There's a lot of stuff here that even people 2:15:52.960 --> 2:15:55.560 deep in the business doesn't know, so I want to 2:15:55.600 --> 2:15:59.360 thank you again. Until next time. This is bald left 2:15:59.400 --> 2:16:05.720 sense Bo