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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: I guess today is David Mucius, president of thirty Tigers. David,

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Speaker 1: good to have you on the podcast. Well, I am

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Speaker 1: very happy to be here. I am. I'm a fan

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Speaker 1: of the podcast, as you know. I love hearing the

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Speaker 1: stories of so many of your guests, and I learned

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Speaker 1: a lot. So it's a real thrill to be uh

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Speaker 1: to be joining you. Okay, let's jump in. What exactly

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Speaker 1: is thirty Tigers. We are a label services company h

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Speaker 1: that that tries as uh much as possible to uh

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Speaker 1: to just be a label infrastructure, holistic labels infrastructure for

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Speaker 1: artists that allows them to take their music to market

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Speaker 1: without having to give up ownership of their masters, but

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Speaker 1: also without any sort of diminution in the quality of

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Speaker 1: the effort. I'm there the marketing of their their music. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's dig a little deeper. People find you, you

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Speaker 1: find them. How is the relationship established? Well, it happens

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Speaker 1: you know, any number of ways. UM, I'd say, I

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Speaker 1: think with one exception, UM, all the relationships that we've

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Speaker 1: entered into came through UH an attorney, a manager, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, some sort of an advocate. I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh. I mean, I try to be open to

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Speaker 1: hearing uh, either me or Lee Tonay, who's our vice

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Speaker 1: president of van or we make you know where the

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Speaker 1: where the sort of the points of entry in terms

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Speaker 1: of these conversations. We try to be open and we

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Speaker 1: try to listen to you know, everybody. But it takes

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Speaker 1: a village to UH in a you know, a robust

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Speaker 1: team for artists to succeed at at a high level.

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Speaker 1: And so if somebody comes and they don't they don't

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Speaker 1: have any teammates, it can be a daunting thing for

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Speaker 1: us to to take on. Having said that, UM, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess you know we have Actually I think lately

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Speaker 1: we've done more things where you know, I've heard an

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Speaker 1: artist they didn't really have a team, and then we

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Speaker 1: were the first teammate and kind of put something, you know,

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Speaker 1: things together. But we won't go out to market without

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Speaker 1: a full team. And if I can't put a team

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Speaker 1: around an artist, then we don't do it. Do you

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Speaker 1: manage any artists or is it always outside management? I

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Speaker 1: co managed Patty Griffin with a wonderful UH partner in

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Speaker 1: crime named Carolyn Rosenfeld. Um I used to manage more artists,

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Speaker 1: but as the label services side of the business grew. Um,

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Speaker 1: I mean, management is a very full on experience, and

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Speaker 1: it just I just I don't think I have the

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Speaker 1: you know, the bandwidth to to manage anyone else and

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Speaker 1: do it right. And and Caroline and I but I

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Speaker 1: just I love Patty Griffin so much. I love her music.

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Speaker 1: I feel honored to be um, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: honored to be asked to to, uh, you know, help

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Speaker 1: go fight for her out in the world. And Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I, uh, you know, we really relish that opportunity

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Speaker 1: that we've been given. But yeah, I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to manage anyone else. Okay, So you talk about

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Speaker 1: an act coming with a team in the best of circumstances,

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Speaker 1: what are the team members you're looking for? Well? Management,

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Speaker 1: But honestly, to me, the most important component part of

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Speaker 1: the team is probably the agent. Uh you know. The

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Speaker 1: live experience is the most intimate way in which artists

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Speaker 1: connect with their fans, and if and if an artist

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Speaker 1: can't do that, or they can't do it at a

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Speaker 1: very high level, then it's really hard for me to

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Speaker 1: envision how how all that's gonna work. Um. I know

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Speaker 1: that there's certain types of music where the live thing

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Speaker 1: isn't uh isn't quite as important, but you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't we don't necessarily you know, work in those genres

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Speaker 1: quite as much. But for for our wheelhouse, UM, I

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Speaker 1: would say the agent is probably the top priority. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's style stay with the agent for a second. Sure,

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Speaker 1: in this business, traditionally, you can't get an agent until

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Speaker 1: you've already proven that you can sell tickets. So is

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Speaker 1: it your experience that everybody comes to you already has

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Speaker 1: some kind of road business or sometimes they just hooked

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Speaker 1: up with an agent and they haven't really worked. I'd

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Speaker 1: say that's probably the case of the time. But you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a handful of agents, uh that I think are

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Speaker 1: like I think about Jonathan Levine with Wasserman. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know, just found out about an artist named Kylie

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Speaker 1: Connell who I'm awe struck by and I encourage all

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Speaker 1: of all of your listeners to go check her out. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I was so dumb struck by her talent. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, and she doesn't have you know, she's she's

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Speaker 1: here in Nashville, she doesn't have a touring base, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't really have a team. And I sent her that

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Speaker 1: sent Jonathan the music, and he just, uh as I did,

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Speaker 1: flipped out, and and he's he's brought her on and

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Speaker 1: we're we're sort of building out the team together. I mean, sometimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, great music just you just can't say no

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Speaker 1: to it. You just have to you feel compelled to

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Speaker 1: to just get behind it and start working. And so

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Speaker 1: it's not but you know that the time, I would

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Speaker 1: say that it's helpful if the artist does have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a momentum or some some sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, some sort of uh yeah, just some

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Speaker 1: sort of a live business already. But it's not it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not essential. So the lady you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: you heard this music, you flipped out? Did she have

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Speaker 1: any team members? Well, she now has a manager. Uh

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Speaker 1: before when you heard the music, did you have any

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Speaker 1: team member? She had nothing. How did you hear the music?

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Speaker 1: I heard? I am friendly. I have a whole you know,

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Speaker 1: group of people out there that I consider I trust

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Speaker 1: their judgment um in this particular time, in this particular instance,

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Speaker 1: there's a blogger named Kyle Carron who writes a blog

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Speaker 1: called Saving Country Music. And um he I consider him

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Speaker 1: a friend and I think he's got great, you know,

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Speaker 1: great ears. And he just sent me a text one

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Speaker 1: day and just said Kylie Connell and that was it.

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Speaker 1: And I went on Spotify and I listened and it

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Speaker 1: was just like, oh my god. And I just I

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Speaker 1: asked him what her um you know like, And she

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Speaker 1: had a publicist because obviously that was how he she

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Speaker 1: got his radar. And so I found the publicist and

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Speaker 1: and she that was the only person that she had

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Speaker 1: on her team. And so then I but I asked

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Speaker 1: to be put in touch with her, and then I

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Speaker 1: got in touch and we just started talking and and

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Speaker 1: and subsequently, uh, you know, other teammates have come on board.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like she's got a it's got a

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Speaker 1: very you know, good team. She's got a Adam from

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Speaker 1: Mcmanagement is going to is managing her now. And then

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Speaker 1: Mcmanagement is a great company, and Wasserman is a great agent.

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Speaker 1: You know, we do what we do well, and you know,

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Speaker 1: so it's like, okay, well here we go. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: hear the music, the music is great. Do you say yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this or you say, let me see

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Speaker 1: what I can do it? Is your first call to

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Speaker 1: Jonathan the agent? And how do you get the manager

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Speaker 1: involved in this case? Um, well, actually the management conversation

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Speaker 1: was happening. Uh, Adam had had actually discovered I didn't

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Speaker 1: approach Adam about it. Adam had found her him or

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Speaker 1: had found Kylie on on his his own. And but

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, but we sort of committed

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Speaker 1: and then they continue to converse and and uh and

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Speaker 1: then Adam subsequently, uh, you know, came on board. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you know, and also I'll say, I mean put

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Speaker 1: his way with Kylie. I just said like, yes, we'll

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Speaker 1: do this. But but again, we're you know, contingent on us,

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Speaker 1: you know, because if I can't put the team together,

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Speaker 1: if there can't be a robust team, then it's not

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Speaker 1: going to go very well for either of us. I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing any favors for her by you know, saying yes,

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Speaker 1: if I can't convince other people of immense quality to

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Speaker 1: come aboard, and um, and it's just not gonna work

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Speaker 1: very well for for us either. And so UM, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I run a business. I I feel like we have

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Speaker 1: very uh equitable terms, but it is a business. I'm

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Speaker 1: not an art patron, you know, Uh, necessarily so, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's got to make sense for for all concerns.

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Speaker 1: But but I'm a very passionate music fan and uh

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Speaker 1: and her music just moved me to my core and

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Speaker 1: I felt compelled to to try to move having an

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Speaker 1: arts to two help put things together for you know,

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Speaker 1: because I think she's going to have an incredibly bright career.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the team members, the agent, what

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Speaker 1: other team members would you prefer an act come with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if they have, if they have a relationship.

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Speaker 1: And this would only be for more established artists. I

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Speaker 1: also pay a lot of attention to the PR person. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're very much we think a lot in

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Speaker 1: terms of narrative, you know anytime. Um, I mean, our

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Speaker 1: job as marketers is to help explain to people the

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Speaker 1: emotional relationship that that we think that they're going to

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Speaker 1: have with the music. You know, with the art. Our

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Speaker 1: job is to explain the art to the people. And

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Speaker 1: that can happen through a multitude of mediums. But for

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Speaker 1: most of the acts that we work with, UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: press is hugely important. And even though you feel like

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Speaker 1: there's a compelling story, I mean, I have a you know,

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Speaker 1: shorthand for talking about some of the stuff. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: look if you if you want to be on Morning Edition,

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Speaker 1: uh you they have to talk about you for six minutes.

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Speaker 1: What are they going to say? You know? And and

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Speaker 1: trying to sort of help an artist think about how

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Speaker 1: to frame their story, um is where where it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: who are you as a person and why did this

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Speaker 1: artistic expression flow from you as though inevitable? You know,

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Speaker 1: sort of like a Greek drama character is destiny, you know,

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Speaker 1: type of thing. And when you can explain who this

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Speaker 1: person is and why they're artistic expression flowed from them

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Speaker 1: as though inevitable, you are painting a picture of an

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Speaker 1: authentic artist. And I think people want to believe they're

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Speaker 1: the artists that they uh, you know, they invite into

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Speaker 1: their lives and um so getting that story right is

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Speaker 1: very important. But it's also important to get the you know,

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Speaker 1: a PR person who's hyper credible because you know, if

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Speaker 1: you think about, like using Morning Edition as an example,

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Speaker 1: if you are uh, if you're that Morning show or

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Speaker 1: Morning Edition producer, uh, you have there's PR people that

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Speaker 1: you trust when they call you and be like I've

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Speaker 1: got I've got a great story for you to tell

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Speaker 1: that comes with great music. There's certain people, you know,

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Speaker 1: publicists that are going to have more credibility than you know,

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Speaker 1: others who are you know, kind of more you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know people that will just you know, if somebody's

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Speaker 1: going to write them a check, they'll they'll try their

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Speaker 1: hardest and do their do the work, but they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have the credibility that certain others will have. So

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Speaker 1: it's important and and and and who will be a

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Speaker 1: credible advocate differs from the you know, from from project

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Speaker 1: to project. You know, we work with um, you know,

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Speaker 1: Lupe Fiasco. A credible advocate for Loupe is going to

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Speaker 1: be different than a credible advocate for sake Higlie, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it's a very different type of music, different stories

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Speaker 1: that they're that they're telling. But that's a huge component part.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes artists, you know, if they have a pre

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Speaker 1: existing relationship with a a publicist, that definitely factors in,

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Speaker 1: because um, you know, if there's somebody that comes aboard

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Speaker 1: that I don't have a lot of faith in, that

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Speaker 1: factors in. But there's certain people that you know, when

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Speaker 1: they come with other publicists, I'm like, oh, getty up,

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Speaker 1: let's go. You know, because I've seen their work and

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Speaker 1: know that when they call that morning edition producer that

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty good chance that they're going to take

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Speaker 1: that call and give it all due consideration. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: those are two members, the agent and the PR person.

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Speaker 1: What other team members are you looking for? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean management for for sure. But um but but but

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Speaker 1: you know that I think I look at uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I look at you know, managers is like the conductor

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Speaker 1: of the orchestra, and it's you know, in the conductor

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Speaker 1: you know, has their their role. But if the if

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Speaker 1: the violin players can't play and the obo obo has suck,

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Speaker 1: then you know you're not gonna doesn't matter what the

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Speaker 1: conductor is doing, you know. So I feel like the

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Speaker 1: people that are out there, um, you know, building the

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Speaker 1: you know, the touring plans and and and and being

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Speaker 1: the primary advocate and the and the uh you know,

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Speaker 1: the disseminator of the narrative, those are you know, to me,

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Speaker 1: those are the you know, I mean it was I mean,

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Speaker 1: managers are hugely important. I mean because they can call

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Speaker 1: and bring other people and all that stuff. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think they're equally as important. But you know,

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Speaker 1: those are those are the kind of the two things.

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Speaker 1: And beyond that, I think we pretty much do everything

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Speaker 1: else in internally, So um, I mean, we've got you know,

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Speaker 1: great you know radio team, We've got people that work

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Speaker 1: you know, one person that does nothing but in the retail.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've got a you know great uh you

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Speaker 1: know woman who's running our European efforts with a small

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Speaker 1: team over there. You know. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: outside of that, I think, you know, if we if

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Speaker 1: we can get those things right, I think that we're

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Speaker 1: pretty much on board. And what about having an attorney, Well, sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think I think, um, I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously we we encourage all of the artists to have

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Speaker 1: attorneys who know what they're doing, because we don't want

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Speaker 1: any surprises. I mean, our our deals are I think

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Speaker 1: in the context of most recording relationships, uh uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're there. I think our deals are fairly simple. But

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important that that there are no surprises.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we don't want uh, you know, we want

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Speaker 1: somebody who's got a good advocate in the legal front,

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Speaker 1: because they can playing the deal, they can any questions

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Speaker 1: come up. It's just uh, you know, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like good good fences make good neighbors, well, good contracts

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Speaker 1: yield good working relationships because when somebody gets surprised on

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Speaker 1: down the road, it's not a pleasant experience for anyone.

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Speaker 1: And so, um, yeah, so there's you know, we we

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Speaker 1: um in fact, I have great um and I know

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Speaker 1: that's your background too, um, but I have I have

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Speaker 1: great respect for the legal profession of fact. Um. I

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Speaker 1: was on course when when h when the major label

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Speaker 1: world invited me to explore my destiny elsewhere and I

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Speaker 1: started this company. I went back to school and go

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Speaker 1: and finished my uh my undergrad degree with an emphasis

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Speaker 1: on pre law. And if this company was not a

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Speaker 1: going concern five years in, I was going to go

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Speaker 1: to law school and become an entertainment attorney. So I

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Speaker 1: love the law. I think it's you know again, that's

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Speaker 1: how how we how we make it through. So but

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Speaker 1: but I don't I mean, we were we worked with

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Speaker 1: a ton of attorney, but I don't, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think most of the attorneys that we work with

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Speaker 1: are you know, really solid, they know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: There's very very few attorneys that that you know, we

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Speaker 1: I can't even think of anybody off the top of

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Speaker 1: my head that where it's just kind of like if

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Speaker 1: they come, if they if they're part of the discussion,

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to do the deal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just I just think most attorneys are good at

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Speaker 1: what they do, and you know, it's it's it's I

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Speaker 1: don't really consider that a huge factor and whether we're

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Speaker 1: going to do business with somebody or not. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: let's just assume somebody comes with people attached two factors.

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Speaker 1: You know, I certainly know managers who have fired clients

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Speaker 1: because the manager wanted it more than the act. And two,

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Speaker 1: there's a long history of people in this business starting

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Speaker 1: off with one manager or one agent and as they

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Speaker 1: gain traction, going with somebody else. So to what degree

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Speaker 1: do you evaluate the desire of the act and to

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Speaker 1: what degree but you say, well, you know, I know

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Speaker 1: you have this person, but we really should change that person.

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Speaker 1: I think if I have doubts about their person that

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Speaker 1: there you know, any member of their team coming in,

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Speaker 1: I probably won't, you know, do the deal. I just

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Speaker 1: feel like that's not you know, I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: just a personal thing. It just makes me feel you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, if they've got somebody that they're committed to,

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Speaker 1: like if if you know, and I'm invited in, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to ever tell anybody, and I honestly I can't.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like times recently where I've

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Speaker 1: even felt that way. Um, and I can't really feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, well, if they had a different manager,

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Speaker 1: I do it. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't

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Speaker 1: remember any any instances. But um, if I do something,

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Speaker 1: then my goal is to work with that team and

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Speaker 1: and and honor the honor that team. Um. And if

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Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, there's a you know, if

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Speaker 1: if if there's something in with a manager and you know,

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Speaker 1: I might it just I might not do the deal.

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Speaker 1: But you know, again, I can't think of any time

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Speaker 1: that that's really worked. And and honestly, most artists that

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Speaker 1: we work with are you know, it's very tough to

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Speaker 1: make it right now. I mean there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: places too. You know, media is so fragmented that you know,

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Speaker 1: I think, uh, it's like if you know, I think

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Speaker 1: I think most artists have their head on straight and

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Speaker 1: they're ready to work hard and and Um, and they

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Speaker 1: may not know everything they need to know about about

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Speaker 1: the business. But but almost everybody that we work with,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of anybody that doesn't have a solid

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Speaker 1: work ethic. So you talked about Kylie just to establish

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Speaker 1: here she's the anomaly. Most people come to you with

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Speaker 1: some sort of base, some sort of traction. Would that

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Speaker 1: be accurate? Yes, I think so, Okay, every deal is unique,

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Speaker 1: but what is the standard deal so to speak? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of variants in our deals. We

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Speaker 1: just sort of do what we do and and kind

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Speaker 1: of a rule of thought, you know, kind of a

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Speaker 1: rule of thumb for us, is that you know, artists

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Speaker 1: are se the gross uh you know the other you

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Speaker 1: know percent uh you know uh, you know, the orchard

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Speaker 1: takes their distribution fee out of it and then but

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Speaker 1: you know we we between that goes to us in

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Speaker 1: the orchard. And so when we set up the business,

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Speaker 1: our goal was to work um ideally on no less

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Speaker 1: than a ten percent gross margin and a three percent

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Speaker 1: net margin. So um, but the the artist, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll get back to what they make of gross proceeds.

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Speaker 1: But any advances that we give or any moneys that

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Speaker 1: gets spent on their behalf comes out of that UM.

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Speaker 1: And also we put it in our contracts to where uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can only spend two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: dollars UM a month, so that you know, for sending

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Speaker 1: Bruce Warren at wor you know, w XPN a piece

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Speaker 1: of vinyl on an artist or something like that, we

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Speaker 1: don't have to call the manager and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: can we send Brusa you know, ah, you know an

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Speaker 1: LP UM. You know, some of the basic blocking and tackling.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to you know, get bogged down in

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Speaker 1: the minute, but we also don't want to all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden spring up. Well, we decided to do a

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollar Facebook ad campaign surprise, you know, because

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Speaker 1: the artists own this work and and the expenses come

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Speaker 1: out of their sides. Where we consider it, I mean

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Speaker 1: we we won't it won't be a pleasing experience if

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Speaker 1: they don't feel like we're we're transparent uh and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, good stewards of their financial well being. So um.

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Speaker 1: But we also you know, in addition to the of

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Speaker 1: what proceeds that come through the distribution channels, we allow

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Speaker 1: them to keep a hundred percent of anything they sell

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Speaker 1: on the road, a hundred percent of dwo C money

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Speaker 1: we don't share. If somebody sells a you know, something

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Speaker 1: on the road, they keep a hundred percent of it. Um.

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Speaker 1: They keep a hundred percent of master use licenses for

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Speaker 1: film and TV. When it comes to sound exchange money,

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Speaker 1: they keep a hundred percent of both the artist and

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Speaker 1: the label side of the money. I jokingly refer to

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Speaker 1: us as the proud home of the sixty deal um.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, and and it works for our artists,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, I mean assuming a certain level of success.

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Speaker 1: You know, if they keep control over what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and they can earn a living, then they're going to

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Speaker 1: continue to do business with us. And I think that, um,

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Speaker 1: not that everybody stays. And and I'm very zen about

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00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, artists have started with us and

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00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: then and then gone on to other places and and

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Speaker 1: uh um, And we protect ourselves if if somebody something

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Speaker 1: starts to blow up and they feel like they need

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Speaker 1: the resources to uh uh you know, to you know,

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Speaker 1: expand the conversation, like you know, Morgan Wade. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if you're familiar with Morgan, but she's you know,

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Speaker 1: Sony signed her and she's looks like she's well on

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Speaker 1: her way to being a significant country star. It feels

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Speaker 1: that way to me. And um, but you know, Sony

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00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 1: has a great promotion you know team, and they're they're

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00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,239
Speaker 1: you know, really doing a good job. But you know,

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Speaker 1: so we I mean, it's not even in our purview

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Speaker 1: to stop Morrigan, you know, I mean Luke Holmes was

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Speaker 1: with us, you know as well, like if when it

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Speaker 1: came time for them to go, they can go at

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Speaker 1: their will. They we don't. We don't have anything in

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Speaker 1: our contract that stops them, but we do participate with

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Speaker 1: an override and so uh so we uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can afford to be zen as long as we're

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Speaker 1: protecting you know, our you know, if we built the

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Speaker 1: foundation or or participated in building the foundation, then you

399
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: know we deserve to and it's essential that we you know,

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Speaker 1: protect ourselves financially if we're going to sustain as a business.

401
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Speaker 1: So um, but most of our artists don't you know,

402
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 1: they're they're there, you know, you know, the Jason Isbels

403
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: and Lucinda Williams and people like that there there. You

404
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: know that it's like they're there. They love owning their

405
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: own business. They it's a very remunerative way for them

406
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: to do business. They have control over whatever they want

407
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 1: to do, and we are they're loving and dutiful back

408
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 1: end staff, you know. So we encourage all all of

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Speaker 1: our artists to think of themselves as their own labels.

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Speaker 1: They're just partnering with us to get the the robust

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Speaker 1: marketing team behind them. So let's just we make a deal.

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Speaker 1: Is there a term, yes? Is it a three year term? Um?

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Speaker 1: And but what we do is uh we uh and

414
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Speaker 1: we let the basically, well, you know, let the artists

415
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: terminate at at will, but we get you know, have

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Speaker 1: a certain period of time that they have to do it.

417
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Speaker 1: So basically, if if the deal just you know, if

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Speaker 1: we do the three years and the artist, which is

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00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: the case quite often most often almost all the time,

420
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 1: where the artist is like, hey, this is working great,

421
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: let's keep going, um, then the deal just continues. And

422
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: so they can terminate once we get past three years.

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Speaker 1: They can terminate, you know, at any point, given sufficient notice,

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00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: so that we can do what we need to do

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00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: to transfer distribution over to you know, to whoever is

426
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: going to be their next home. But it also allows

427
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 1: us not to have to like touch the contract every

428
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,199
Speaker 1: three years or anything like that. So so they have

429
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 1: the freedom to terminate whenever they want, you know, and

430
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: and you know, I like to come up with things

431
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: where we don't have to. You know, the more we're

432
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: thinking about that stuff, the less we're thinking about marketing

433
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: their music and helping them make connections with fans. But

434
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: you did mention an override, so hypothetically your Morgan Wade

435
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: or your Luke Combs and within that three years you

436
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 1: fly up to a Sony Universal Warner. Your override is

437
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: for what projects? Let's say they put one record out,

438
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 1: they could put three records out, and is there a

439
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: sunset they The override is just for the project that

440
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: we participated in. So we have participation in Luke holmbs

441
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: first album, but we don't have it on anything else.

442
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: Um and um and and it the override runs into perpetuity.

443
00:23:52,240 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: So um. So that's how that works. How do you

444
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: know so much about business? You're talking about the margins

445
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: gross margins net margins. You picked that up along the way.

446
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: Do you have a background in this? I just I

447
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: you know, I have a very systems oriented brain, you know.

448
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: I love I love puzzles. I love um thinking about

449
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: how things fit together, and I do. I don't read

450
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: a ton of business books, but you know, but I have.

451
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: You know, I've read books along the way that have

452
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: really had a big impact. And to be honest with you,

453
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: one of the big books that UM had a big

454
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: impact on me with Sam Walton's Made in America, Uh,

455
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, because he you know, when he went out there,

456
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: he had this lowest price every day uh philosophy, And

457
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: there were a lot of critics that were UM going like,

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: people can't possibly stay in business selling goods you know,

459
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: that cheap, and so the idea always stuck with me.

460
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: Uh you know. I mean I worked for major labels

461
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: from the time it was twenty one two, you know,

462
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: thirty five or thirty six, and even though I have

463
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: no issues, I don't think there's I mean, you know,

464
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: for the amount of money that they you know, they

465
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: spend some times in in promoting their artists and building

466
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: every think I've got no I have no ethical qualms

467
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: about a major label deal whatsoever. I think everybody has

468
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: the right to say, you know, I'm going to take

469
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: this risk and I'm going to insist on this kind

470
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: of reward. I think in in what I was trying

471
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: to do was to um give artists an option where

472
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: we really thought about ringing all the inefficiencies out of them.

473
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what Sam Walton did, was you know,

474
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: he looked at supply chain issues. He looked at a

475
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: number of issues and and found a lot of inefficiencies

476
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: in the UM in the chain. And and so he

477
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: in ringing out those inefficiencies, was able to pass the

478
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: price savings onto his customers. Well, my customers are artists,

479
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: and so if we can you know, think about how

480
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: to on things more efficiently so that artists can earn

481
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: more money than they're going to continue to shop in

482
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: our store. And that's really you know, one of the

483
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, animating philosophies about you know, what we do.

484
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: But you know, also like Jim Collins is good, I

485
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: mean a lot of the basics, you know, a lot

486
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: of the the you know, the big books, you know,

487
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: the seven Habits of highly successful people had a big

488
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: impact on me. Jim Collins Good too Great had a

489
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: big impact on me. Uh. Patrick Lyncon's five Dysfunctions of

490
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: Team had a big impact on me. UM and you know,

491
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: help shape a lot of our you know, philosophies, but

492
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: really the core you know, another of the core philosophies

493
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: is that I tell my staff all this all the time,

494
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: is that you know, the artist is the central uh

495
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: thing of value. You know, That's the only thing I

496
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: tell my staff all the time. No one ever bought

497
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: a thirty Tigers record. They have, however, bought a Jason

498
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: Nisble record and the artist. You know, that implies that

499
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: the artists should have more leverage in uh, in these negotiations.

500
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: But I think that there haven't been many. There wasn't

501
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: a big variation in the structures that you know allowed

502
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: them to take their their music to market. And and

503
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: so my goal was to try to build you know,

504
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: something that would you know, allow artists again. Like I

505
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: grew up, as you know, came up in the music

506
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: business as a salesman. I used to go sell you know,

507
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: Alan Jackson and Brooks and Doune records to Walmart you know,

508
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: and to you know Hastings and you know, etcetera. And

509
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: so I understand that you know, sales is the the

510
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: removal of all impediments to it. Yes, And so you know,

511
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: when I think about uh, you know, our artists and

512
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: like what is it that's going to get them to

513
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: say yes to doing business with me or thirty tigers

514
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: us um, you know, like ownership of the master if

515
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: we if we uh allow them to own it, but

516
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: we create an environment where they want to stick around

517
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: and as long as I can get the margin that

518
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: we need to run a sustainable business. Is you know,

519
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: it's a very spiritual thing for an artist. They created

520
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: this work, It came from inside of them and and

521
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: to all you know, and again sometimes it's an entirely

522
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: appropriate business decision to give up ownership of that work

523
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: in order to get the support they need. The records

524
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: aren't the only way that they monetize their career. There's

525
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: publishing revenue, there's live you know, touring revenue. And it

526
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: can be the sane as decision and ever you know,

527
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: an artist ever makes to be uh you know, to

528
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: enter into a major label type of deal. But there's

529
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: a lot of artists that you know, like we work

530
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: with Lucinda Williams. Why does she need to do that?

531
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: You know the value of her work is the you

532
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: know sort of intrinsic financial value of of of her work. Uh,

533
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's a sustainable thing if we can give

534
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: her enough revenue to go and record and to publicize

535
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: and do all that stuff. Like the the monetary value

536
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: of what her work earns um is much higher than

537
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: the input costs of what what she's doing. And so

538
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: why should she not have an option that allows her

539
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: to be able to do that and and and keep

540
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: that that excess value. So let's assume you have an

541
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: act you want to work with, if they have a team,

542
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: you're making a deal. Do the acts usually come to

543
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: you with a finished record? Do they not come with

544
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: a finished record? Do you advance so they can record

545
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: the record? What's your schedule in terms of the music

546
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: being done and how much you know marketing before the

547
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: album comes out? What's what's the timeline of all this? Well,

548
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: it depends. I would say that in terms of the

549
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: time constraints up front, there's there longer now than they've

550
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: ever been because, uh well, two main factors. One is

551
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: is frankly, vinyl production. A lot of our artists, most

552
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: of our artists, um, Vinyl is very important to what

553
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: they do for a couple of reasons. One is that,

554
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: uh well, it's just a growing configuration. Think during the pandemic,

555
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people were stuck at home and they

556
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, wanted to find ways to entertain themselves at home.

557
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: And they've been hearing about this this you know up

558
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: surgeon and vinyl, and and to be able to have

559
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: a piece of uh, you know, art that they could

560
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, where they had the tangible artifact and they

561
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: could open up the gatefold and read lyrics and and

562
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: and all that. It was you know, I think it

563
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: was a you know, an important thing during the pandemic.

564
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: And we saw sales just surge on vinyl. We went

565
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: from I think we did two thousand units in vinyl

566
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: in ten and then last year we did over eight

567
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: hundred thousand, So we've almost tripled our our vinyl uh

568
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: you know sales during that time. But the other reason

569
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: why vinyl is important to us is we place, probably

570
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: more than any company I know, placed an inordinate amount

571
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: of emphasis on indie retail because, um, you know, we

572
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: look at them as a medium as much as it

573
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: is a point of sale. If you're here in I mean,

574
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm speaking to you from Nashville, and and you know,

575
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: we have the legendary you know, Grimes records here and

576
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: if you if you give a shit about good music

577
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: and you live in Nashville, you shop at Grimes, You're

578
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: probably on their social media feeds. Like that's just part

579
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: of of of the of the media mix. And if

580
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: you don't have vinal for them to sell, uh, then

581
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: they can't participate as you know, your your press persons

582
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: going out and getting you know, uh, you know, you

583
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: know that morning edition piece and and and a radio

584
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: team is getting you on appropriate radio stations. If if

585
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: you're the type of artists that where you know, indie

586
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: retail is an important factor, you're you're leaving them out

587
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: of the conversation. And social media is a huge part

588
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: of how people, you know, accumulate those impressions to to

589
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: be able to make the decision to purchase. I mean,

590
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about the last book that

591
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: you bought or the last movie that you want to see,

592
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't the first decision, you know, it wasn't like

593
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the first time you heard about it. Really you're like,

594
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about the show Search Party. I

595
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: was very late to the Search Party, but I love

596
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: that show and it was just an accumulation. I heard

597
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: some people talk about it. I knew Bow and Yang

598
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: was a fan and I really like his work, and

599
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: it was just like an accumulation of impressions. And for

600
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: music fans, you know, like in Nashville, Grimey's is like

601
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: their Facebook feed, their Twitter feed, all that stuff. That's

602
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: an important way to communicate. And if you don't include

603
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: them or you don't have vinyl ready when street date happens,

604
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: then you're you're missing an important taste maker, uh, participant

605
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: in the in the conversation. And so so you know,

606
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, lead times can be uh, well they're you know,

607
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: seven eight months now, you know, and so if you

608
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: you can't just sort of be like, hey, I rolled

609
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: out of the studio and like let's go uh you know,

610
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: let's put it up there, it's just not going to

611
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: go as well as it should. I mean, there's certain

612
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: types of music where vinyl isn't quite as important or

613
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: certain you know genre was you know, we we work with,

614
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, the gospel artist Marvin Sapp and you know,

615
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: he's not making vinyl and uh and that probably makes

616
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: sense because vinyl isn't a big issue there and and

617
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: indie retail is not going to be a big factor

618
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: in what he does. Um, so you know, we addressed

619
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: and and and you know, we just look at the artist,

620
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: but the vast majority of our artists are. Vinyl is

621
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: a hugely important thing, you know, for for you know,

622
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: and and also if you're gonna spend with sales being

623
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: as big as they are, if you're going to invest

624
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: the money in a in a great pr person and

625
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: do all the stuff, and you don't have vinyl there,

626
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: like if it's three months late, you know, the conversation

627
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: is largely you know, like journalists are moving on, they're

628
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: talking about other things. You may get your core fans,

629
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: but the general you know public, if they're vinyl, you know,

630
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: buying people in in in your it's not available, you know,

631
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: then you're you're they're not going to become a fan.

632
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I done a little bit of looking around

633
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 1: on that. I feel like if you missed by three

634
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: or four months, it could affect your overall vinyl, you know,

635
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: in terms of what you're going to sell long term.

636
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: By like fift you're just taking money off the table.

637
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: So we insist as much as we can. And she

638
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: had happened sometimes and you know, things happen and and

639
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: but you know, but it's a it's a big priority

640
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: for us to have vinyl on street days. Okay, let's

641
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: stay with the vinyl for a second. Sure, since you

642
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: do not almost a million units a year, do you

643
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: reserve time and the pressing plants and then just insert

644
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: the acts as they come along? Absolutely? Yeah. We have

645
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: a woman who is a an absolute maestro at organizing

646
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 1: all that. Her name is Mickey Windham, and she uh

647
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: came out of Kindercore, which is a vinyl pressing plan

648
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: out of Athens. She understands the the process inside and out,

649
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: and she communicates with all these all these uh manufacturers,

650
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: and she we you know, yeah, we definitely reserved space

651
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: and and and and move the you know, move the

652
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: parts around and all that. So how do you come

653
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: up with the vinyl number? And two? What is the

654
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 1: breakdown between retail and merch sales at the show? And

655
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: I would assume just like you don't charge for c

656
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: D s or anything else that show, you wouldn't charge

657
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: for vinyl either. We don't, you know, to be honest

658
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: with you, I don't know what the percentage breakdown is

659
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: between what we do and um and what the artist does.

660
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's different. But because they don't report those

661
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: to us, I mean, and you know, and we make

662
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: sure that they get set up to you know, report

663
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: their sales through at venue or whatever, so that you know,

664
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: all of that stuff accumulates. But you know, we don't

665
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: have any financial interest in what they sell on the road,

666
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: and so we don't really you know, we don't really know.

667
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: But you know, it can it can differ. But it's

668
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of artists between their deep their

669
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: websites and on the road, they sell a significant amount

670
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: of vinyl. And uh, you know, so but it's yeah,

671
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: I I don't, to be honest, I don't. I don't

672
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: know what the percentages. Okay, So how do you decide

673
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: how much vinyl to produce? Well, I mean, you know,

674
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: if it's an established artists, you know, we have a

675
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: track record of what they're gonna do and and um

676
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: and we also uh you know, we'll we'll also um

677
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: just you know, I don't. We just use our experience

678
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: to try to you know, make the best guests we can.

679
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean, so and most of the time I think

680
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: we get it fairly right, and sometimes we get it

681
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: wrong and we're playing catch up and and you know,

682
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: we but we just do the you know, the best

683
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: that we can. But for artists that have a history, um,

684
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: there's a pretty good you can you can you know,

685
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty easy to guess. And so and sometimes

686
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: we have acts that just you know, bust loose. I mean,

687
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: I think about Tyler Childer's in his Purgatory record. I mean,

688
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: you know we're over you know, that's a platinum record now,

689
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: and um, you know, it was like and that thing

690
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: exploded quickly and we were playing catch up, like we

691
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: were just scrambling the whole you know, it felt like

692
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: the whole time just to keep up with the with

693
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: the demand. And uh so, you know, we just do

694
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: do the best that we can. But if it's if

695
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: it's a new like like Kylie for instance, we'll probably

696
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: start off with like a reasonable amount, like a thousand

697
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: and and if we're if things explode, we're going to

698
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: be in the in the same situation like Tyler Childer's

699
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: and playing catch up. But you know, we just try

700
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: to make the best decisions we can and honestly with

701
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: the you know, with a FIRMI on the artist, because

702
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: if if we overshoot the mark and an artist is

703
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: paying Uh. You know, you know, we make a thousand

704
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: too many and they're sitting they're sitting in somebody's basement

705
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: and and you know, all of a sudden, they've spent

706
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: five or six thousand dollars. That isn't uh you know,

707
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: I mean five or six thousand dollars for an indie artist.

708
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: That can make a big difference. So we just we

709
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: just do the best that we can. Okay, But when

710
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: you sell the retail, you sell it one way right correct,

711
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: can't come back no, Okay, So let's go back to

712
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: the timeline. You're we're working with an act. Hey, do

713
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: you advance him any money to make the record? Into

714
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: what degree do you get involved with scheduling with the act?

715
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: We do advance the money, I'd say almost all the time.

716
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: Um sometimes uh, sometimes they show up with a record

717
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: that's completely nished, and and you know when they do that, um,

718
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, we'll we'll go through it like a profit

719
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: loss estimate. We'll go through that with like the management

720
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: team and sometimes the business manager, and and we'll put

721
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: all the cost inputs, like if you know we're gonna

722
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: hire this publicist, it's going to cost X. If we're

723
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: going to press a certain amount of violence going to

724
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: cost y and we just sort of add all that

725
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: up and UM, and so we try we try to

726
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: cover all the out of pocket costs that we can

727
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: so that it's it's I mean, honestly like we'll get

728
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: we'll give the biggest advance that we can possibly give

729
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: without feeling like we're digging a hole that we can't

730
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: climb out of. Um. You're working on the thin margins

731
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: that we work on. You know, we just we have

732
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: to be you know, we just have to be a

733
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: little bit careful. But twenty years of doing this, you know,

734
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good barometer on on where those

735
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, how how to measure risk and um. And

736
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, we're we're not going to be able

737
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: to cover all the costs and and if and if

738
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: we say like okay, well something's gonna call to do

739
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: the job right, it's gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars UM,

740
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: but we only feel comfortable with seventy five dollars worth

741
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: of risk. If the act wants to own their work

742
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 1: and have this asset, they're going to have to figure

743
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: out how to how to cover the remaining thousand dollars

744
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: worth of costs. So let's assume just to make the

745
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: numbers round, you advance a hundred k. Then the then

746
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: it goes, do you take the hundred k off the top? Yes,

747
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: so you re earn the you know, you collect a

748
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: hundred k and then it's okay, it will go But

749
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: well hold on, let me clarify. One thing is that

750
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: you know with with our deal, that hundred thousand comes

751
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: out of their seventy five. So we're we're earning from

752
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: record one. Uh it's important. Yes, that's an important you

753
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: know distinction. So um, so that hundred thousand will come

754
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: out of their sevent and we will collect all of

755
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: that before the split happens. However, remember that the artist

756
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: is collecting all the sound exchange money from both the

757
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: artists and label side from day one. We that never

758
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: comes through us, you know, all anything that they want

759
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: to do if they want to come up with something

760
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: through their website and and you know, do some sort

761
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: of a special thing where they're going to sell two

762
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: thousand pieces of vinyl and it's going to be autographed

763
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: or whatever they get of that. So it's not like

764
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: they have to recoup to start monetizing their you know,

765
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: their record. But it's just we need to fill in

766
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: the hole before split occurs. Okay, so we're gonna go.

767
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: Let's assume I come with a finished record, and let's

768
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: leave the vinyl part out of the equation. How much

769
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: lead time do you want before release date? What do

770
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: you plan to do before release date? For the most part,

771
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: we're scheduling probably no less than nine months and ideally

772
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: a year ahead of time. Um, you know partly you

773
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 1: know this, you know, those are just the lead times

774
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: that we're working on and and and again there's always

775
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: exceptions to that rule. But that's that's you know, primarily

776
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: the thing. But but but you know, during that say

777
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: nine months period, you know, we're encouraging the artists to

778
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, work on you know, uh, you know, creating content. Um.

779
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: You know, the publicist is on on board. You know,

780
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: they're they're sort of seating the conversation. Um, you know

781
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: where uh, you know, the three months out, you know,

782
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: they may make the album announcement, they'll do a video premiere,

783
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, to to launch it. I mean, we're doing

784
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: things to start the conversation before street date. You know,

785
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: the street date is is the the time. I mean

786
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: the press, the press journalists treat the album releases, the

787
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: inciting events in the narrative and so um, so everything

788
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: is leading up to that. But also we don't you know,

789
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: we don't. It's not going to work very well if

790
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: you just sort of like, you know, try to try

791
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: to have a have a robust conversation about it without

792
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: of you know, helping lead people you know to it.

793
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: So so so we are doing work and very public

794
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: facing work with the whole team prior to the album

795
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: coming out and the but the other thing too is

796
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: you know, we we're gonna be working with um, you know,

797
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: we're gonna be working with artists to try to help uh,

798
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: you know, get things. I'm gonna get into the team

799
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: and like we're not doing anything like we were working

800
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: with another new artist named Drayton Farley. He's from Alabama. UM,

801
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: and uh again we were kind of the you know,

802
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: probably the first one to the to the party there.

803
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: But you know, uh, you know, Brian Greenbaum and his

804
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: team at CIA or on board to book, Kyle Lenski manages,

805
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: Ryan Bingham came on to manage UM and you know,

806
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: the album hasn't even been recorded. He's going to record

807
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: with Sadler Baden who produced the Morgan Wade record and

808
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: is in Jason Isbel's band, who's a great producer, and um,

809
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: they're recording in in May. And but Drayton has it

810
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: record that's out on that he put out on his

811
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: own that we're not involved with. It's you know that's

812
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: out there, but um, you know, he's out there opening

813
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: dates for Charlie Crockett. He's out there opening dates for

814
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: Willie Nelson like he's he's out there building an audience,

815
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: and we're you know, having the conversation and you know,

816
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: but obviously c A is doing that, not us, but

817
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: but it's just part of the team. We're just built

818
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: building uh awareness And by the time that record comes out,

819
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: hopefully a lot of people will have we'll know Drayton

820
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: will have seen him live. You know, they will have

821
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: already developed a relationship. The relationship won't be sort of

822
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: brand new when the when the album streets. So there's sales,

823
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: it's part of distribution. There's marketing, and there's coordination. So

824
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: let's assume you have a reasonable team who is quarterbacking

825
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: like policeman of publicity and tour dates. Are you pretty

826
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: hands off on that? Are you saying, way, I'm coordinating

827
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: all this and we gotta line everything up well when

828
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: it comes to touring. Uh. Yeah, we're not really involved

829
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: in that much in tour marketing. But you know, that's

830
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why the agent is so important.

831
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: You know. Um, you know I think about like, you know,

832
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: Drayton being with CIA. They've got a great tour marketing uh,

833
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, effort and they're working with the promoters. It's

834
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: just you know, we'll do our part. You know, we

835
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: talked to the radio stations, so um, you know, if

836
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: if Drayton is going to be in town in a

837
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: particular town and we can start startup. I mean, he's

838
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: not at the point where anybody's probably gonna want to

839
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: put him on the air to interview him because nobody

840
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: knows who he is. But you know, we can try

841
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: to do whatever we can do to help that. But

842
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: we're not taking responsibility for for tour marketing. It's just,

843
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, we we need other teammates to do that,

844
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: which again was why working with a great agent is

845
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: hugely important. And what about PR and the manager? How

846
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: often are you in contact with them, you know, when

847
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: you have a hot project coming along the line. Oh often,

848
00:44:55,239 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm definitely very active because I'm the probably the if

849
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: narrative junkie, you know, when it comes to I, you know,

850
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: it's it's important for for Lee and I to understand

851
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: the story that's gonna be told. If we don't know

852
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: what the story is and why that how that six

853
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 1: minute we can't hear the six minute morning Edition piece

854
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: in our own heads, Um, then we're not necessarily going

855
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: to understand how to how to converse about this artist

856
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: work out in the world and so um, and it's

857
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: it's you know, more important and I think appropriate for

858
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: us to be the ones to try to if they

859
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: don't already have a PR person on board, if you know,

860
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: for us to try to help connect them with the

861
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: right people to be that credible advocate. Then um, I mean,

862
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: I'm I'm personally very involved in all the discussions that

863
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: happen with PR because that's just a it's just a

864
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: found fundamental principle for me that you've got to get them,

865
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: you got you gotta get the storytelling right. Okay. So

866
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: there's distribution in sales, there's radio, and there's marketing. What

867
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: falls under the head of marketing. What does thirty Tigers

868
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: do well, you know, any any any number of things.

869
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're will advise on on sort of

870
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: social media content, but we don't, um you know, we

871
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 1: feel like that's the artist's authentic voice, so we don't.

872
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: I don't think it really works particularly well. Some labels

873
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: will take over social media. Um, and sometimes artists want

874
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: to have other companies come in and and do that

875
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: and help them keep a consistent voice and a consistent

876
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: flow of communication. But we don't do that uh internally,

877
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, like with the publicists. You know, there are

878
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: companies out there that help do that. We work with

879
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: those companies, but that's kind of up to the artist

880
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: and their and their management as to whether or not

881
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: they want to do that or not. Um. You know,

882
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: we will put advertising plans together uh for um, you know,

883
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: for for you know, for you know, to will run

884
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Instagram campaigns and things like that. You know, kind of

885
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: the standard uh you know advertising. Plus you know, we're

886
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: just we're always uh you know, out out there looking

887
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: for um, you know, appropriate ways to to you know,

888
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: uh you know, make connections. Um, you know, we're not

889
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: I'd say, like brand marketing isn't our you know, we're

890
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: not like super strong. We have relationships out there and

891
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: so you know, like we'll you know, do some things

892
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: with Yettie from time to time and you know, and

893
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: uh um and you know and that. But it's uh,

894
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: you know, we're we're we're you know, we we try

895
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: to help, uh, you know, manage the real you know,

896
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: like David Ogilvie, who's the kind of the dean of

897
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: modern advertising, he was like the you know, one of

898
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: the founders of Ogilvie and Matther. He used to argue

899
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: that it takes seven impressions before you make the you know,

900
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: anybody knows what it is that you're talking about, and

901
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: so we look at editorial, you know, like editorial in

902
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: our minds has to be one through four. If you're

903
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: advertising something and nobody knows what it is, then they're

904
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 1: not going to buy it. I mean I think about

905
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, I drive around Nashville, and you know, I

906
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: see some poor act who thinks that like buying a

907
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: billboard on Broadway is going to be there like that

908
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: somehow that's gonna matter. But if like you've never heard

909
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: of that person, you don't know what that you know,

910
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: who that is, You're not going to go you know

911
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: by their record. You know, it has to be editorially driven.

912
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: So my dictate to my staff is, you know, impressions

913
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: one through four half to be um editorially driven. Five

914
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: through seven have to be you know that then that

915
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: can be advertising. And we try really hard to UM

916
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: got talking about NPR a lot, but you know, you know,

917
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: you just use these as shortcause I try to encourage

918
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: my staff to think about sort of how people live

919
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: and how they consume. And like, you know, I talk

920
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: about like somebody driving to to work and hearing that

921
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: morning edition piece and you know, you think about their day.

922
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: You know, they hear it on their way to work.

923
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: Then they get to work. They've got a bunch of

924
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: ship going on at work. Uh, they come home at

925
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: the end of the day, you know, they have dinner

926
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: with their family, they might watch some TV shows, and

927
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: that thing that they heard that moved them, you know

928
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: in the morning is a is a is a bit

929
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: of a distant memory. So it's important for us to

930
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: through targeting advertising. Uh, you know, like if if we

931
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: can you know, have a uh an ad in their

932
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: Facebook feed to say like, you know, you know, when

933
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: we try to target like in that instance, uh, self

934
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: identified NPR you know, fans and all that kind of stuff.

935
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: So if we can have something hit their Facebook feed

936
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 1: to say like, hey, artist X, you know you you

937
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: heard the you know, you know, like you heard the

938
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: Sturgil Simpson thing, or you know earlier in the day,

939
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: click here to hear the thing, or click here to

940
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: buy the record, whatever the messaging is. What we're trying

941
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: to do is build those seven impressions, but really try

942
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: to work with with the acts budget and spend their

943
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: money smart so that we're reinforcing editorially driven impressions. Okay,

944
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: let's just talk about advertising, talk about the mix with

945
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: print radio online and explain how you do online. I mean,

946
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: we don't do exclusively online, uh, but that's probably percent

947
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: of it. I mean we you know, if we do

948
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: uh you know, if we do things like I I

949
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 1: you know, listen to the episode that you did with

950
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, Michael Rappino and you know he talked about that.

951
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's there's certain acts that we're it's

952
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: kind of appropriate, but for the most part, you can

953
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: target so succinctly. UM. Online where is is those other

954
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: mediums are a little bit scatter shot. But um, but

955
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, but but again the artists like we worked

956
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: with Charlie Crockett and one thing that Charlie and it's

957
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: hard with the success he's having, it's hard to argue

958
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: against that. But he places a lot of um, a

959
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: lot of emphasis on on outdoor like billboards, you know,

960
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: he does in key markets and you know, and um

961
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: and so we you know, we uh we carry that

962
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: forth for him, and and and again hard to argue

963
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 1: with the with the results, you know. And uh so

964
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: but I'd say what we do is online because of

965
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: the same thing that you know that he was talking

966
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: about before, the the ability to target is more efficient. Okay,

967
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: So how do you decide what's a reasonable spending? Where

968
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: do you spend it? Well, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Uh,

969
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think a lot of the

970
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: same places that people spend. I mean, we we have

971
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: a two person team who does all that and and

972
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: uh this, uh you know, our guy who oversees that.

973
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: His name is Garrett Carty and he came out of

974
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: uh Corporate America and uh you know he's he's he's

975
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: got a much better sense of that, uh, you know

976
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: than I do. You know, honestly, like we we just

977
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 1: depend on him. I mean, you know, they look at

978
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: you know, they'll run ads, they'll they'll monitor how they're

979
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: how they're working or not working. If something's not connecting, well,

980
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, will ramp it down, maybe change our messaging

981
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: or change our approach. But you know, I think you know,

982
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: we just used this. You know, we go we're people

983
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: are so you know Instagram, Facebook, you know, etcetera, and

984
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: and uh, you know we're not you know, and you

985
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: know and occasionally, uh, you know the things like we're

986
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: a lot of our acts aren't necessarily like you know,

987
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: TikTok uh you know, uh, you know, artists, but um,

988
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, but we'll look at it at any medium

989
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: that we think is um is appropriateing. But Garrett Is

990
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: is definitely our maestro when it comes to that. He'll

991
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: he'll know what a lot more about it than than

992
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: I do. So I depend on my staff to do.

993
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: Let's let's switch to radio. Major labels putting out fewer acts,

994
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: fewer records than ever before. They tend to promote everything

995
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: they go in. Let's say, with five records, they don't

996
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: say this is great. You want to play this this

997
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: one You'll never play it. So, you know, there's issues

998
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: of credibility. To what degree do you work radio for

999
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 1: your acts and how do you do it? Well? Um,

1000
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 1: we have to to very see eas and great radio

1001
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: promotion people. Um. Uh Lindsay Reid, who uh is our

1002
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: person who does triple A an Americana. Um, great promotion

1003
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: person one you know at the at the Bowlder conference. Uh.

1004
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: You know two years ago he won Promotion Person Indie

1005
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: Promotion Person of the Year. Last year we won Indie label.

1006
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: It was you know, because of his work um uh

1007
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: and his advocacy for our our artists. Um. In addition

1008
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: to the quality of work our artists are producing, of course.

1009
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: But um, you know, we we place a lot of

1010
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: importance on on that. I mean, you know, it's uh,

1011
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: um you know, I you know, I tend to you know,

1012
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: like I'll go to the noncom conference in Philadelphia and

1013
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, shake hands and slapbacks and and try to

1014
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: build relationships to show those you know, promotion people. First

1015
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: of all, it's you know, I like these people, and

1016
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: and and secondly, you know, if if I'm showing up,

1017
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: it shows that we you know, really care about their

1018
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: contributions to you know, to to you know, uh, you know,

1019
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: to what they're doing. And uh we uh recently brought

1020
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: on Mike di Pippa, who was a season guy who

1021
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 1: was a senior VP uh for like rock and alternative

1022
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: at um at At Island f JAM and then he

1023
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: was with Republican Elector before that, and you know, he's

1024
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: great in those genres and and so if if you know,

1025
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: in Mike's world, it takes probably more of a team, lindsay,

1026
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll bring on maybe an independent. Maybe we

1027
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: won't in the Triple A and Americana world, but for

1028
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, if we're taking something to uh either rock

1029
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: or alternative, we'll you know, need to tap into you know,

1030
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: to teams. So we'll either add independence a lot of

1031
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: times will work with the Orchards in house team that's

1032
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: under Danny Bush. Really it just depends on record by record.

1033
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: But we you know, we have ways if we need

1034
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: a team, we have ways to access a team. If

1035
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: we uh don't need to spend an artist money on

1036
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: on a team that and we can handle it internally,

1037
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: then we handle it internally. But but but we we radios,

1038
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: I mean you know, radio is hugely important. Are there

1039
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: some records you put out where you don't go to radio? Yeah? Well,

1040
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: I you know, I think no, I mean I can't well,

1041
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: I can't think of any uh. I mean it feels

1042
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 1: like they're there, you know there there there must be,

1043
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: but I feel like, um, you know, even projects that like,

1044
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: I mean we you know, I'll go to Folk Alliance

1045
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: every year. You know, we have we you know, we

1046
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: have projects that um, you know that are are but

1047
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, and I'll go to the Folk DJ Reception

1048
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. And and Lindsay works

1049
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 1: you know that market too. So you know, I think

1050
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: there's for almost all that I can't think of an

1051
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: act that doesn't fit somewhere at radio. It's just a

1052
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: matter of you know, is it a big commercial format

1053
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: or is it more of a niche thing like uh,

1054
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, like uh, you know the folk panel. Um.

1055
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: But you know, if if if there's any relevance anywhere,

1056
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: we try to make sure that we come up with

1057
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: a plan to you know, to introduce that music and

1058
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: advocate for our artists. Um. And and also there's certain

1059
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: types of music like you'll not see any straight pop

1060
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: acts you know on our roster. I mean, we're starting

1061
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: to sort of creep creep into that a little bit,

1062
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: but just you know, but heretofore, you know, not yet.

1063
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: It's really might with Might pivot being on board, it

1064
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 1: feels like we can we can now we have somebody

1065
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: who knows how that is done, and so you know,

1066
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: so we might sort of creep into that, but heretofore,

1067
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, we we haven't done that because we just

1068
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: didn't have the relationships and the knowledge about how all

1069
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: that worked and where all the bodies are baring. You know,

1070
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: it's just like you've got to have somebody who can

1071
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 1: who can deliver a roadmap. So if if you know,

1072
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: even though if there's a style of music where it

1073
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 1: depends on radio and we're just not uh the right,

1074
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: if it's like we don't know how to how to

1075
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: connect the dots, that we're not going to take it on.

1076
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: We're not doing anybody any favors if we're you know,

1077
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: sucking their ship up. So let's pull the lens back.

1078
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: What moves the needle? What we do know certainly since

1079
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: the internet error, will just call it the year two thousand.

1080
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: Everything shifted used to be you wanted on beyond late

1081
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: night TV. It worked now people say basically s n

1082
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: L and CBS Sunday Morning, And of course radio is

1083
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: less of the pie than it used to be. And

1084
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: of course we have online. We even have some print

1085
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: in terms of stories we established earlier. You want seven impressions,

1086
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: but really, what's the hierarchy of power and what really works?

1087
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: You know? I think you know the things that you

1088
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: you know, talked about. I mean, you know, we've been

1089
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: lucky enough to have people on CBS Sunday Morning. Uh,

1090
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, we've had uh you know, like like Anthony

1091
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: Mason is a big fan of the type of music

1092
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: that we do a lot, and even when they don't

1093
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: show up on CBS Sunday Morning, he'll have them on

1094
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: CBS This Morning or CBS Saturday Morning. And you know

1095
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: that has an impact. Um, you know it's but before

1096
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: you go beyond that, does any other TV have an impact?

1097
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: Do you say, oh, I want to get you on

1098
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: Fallon and Kimmel or do you say that's just not

1099
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: moving the needle? Now? You know, I mean honestly, if

1100
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: if if, if you never know, I mean sometimes artists

1101
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: go on there and you don't really see much of

1102
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: an impact. But this wasn't our record. But I think

1103
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: about Nathaniel rate Lift and his fallon performance that lit

1104
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: the fuse for everything that's happened with that guy, and

1105
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: deservely so. He's an awesome artist. But you just never know,

1106
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you must be present to win, you know.

1107
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: It's like if somebody wants to help you tell the story.

1108
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: And and again you have to, you know, weigh the

1109
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: cost of everything. It's not an inexpensive thing to get

1110
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: an artist in their band out there um to be

1111
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: able to do that stuff. But you know, I think

1112
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: if you believe in your artist and you believe in

1113
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: the music, you know, you hope that something happens like

1114
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: happens with Nathaniel rate Lift, you know, because you believe

1115
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: in the story that you're telling, and you know so

1116
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: we will will never pull up short in in those opportunities,

1117
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: you know. And and again, I think it just has

1118
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: to do with the diffusion of media. Um, there's just

1119
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: more places to be seen and heard, so therefore there's

1120
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: less eyeballs on any particular medium. And but you know,

1121
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: it's just it's such a you know, it is such

1122
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: a crowded marketplace. To try to uh make an impact

1123
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: that if if Jimmy Kimmel wants to put one of

1124
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: our artists on, We're gonna show up and we'll write

1125
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: the check to make sure that that happens. And you

1126
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: just never know and so uh so we we we will,

1127
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I'm yeah, I'm a big proponent

1128
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: of like must be present to win. So uh you know, Okay,

1129
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: what about print, I'm not I'm telling about print editorial

1130
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: to what degree is that? I mean hugely important? Fifty

1131
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: years ago it was everything, but what is it today?

1132
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: It's it's it's hugely important. But I'd say I differentiate

1133
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: between um, long form narrative and just sort of like

1134
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, reviews. I I again, you know, thinking about

1135
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: the revelation of the artist and who they are, uh

1136
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: and and why their art flows from them, as though

1137
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: inevitable that the explanation of that really only happens in

1138
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: long form narrative pieces, and so um hard to do

1139
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: on the third page of the album reviews. You know,

1140
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: not that we don't love getting our albums reviewed and

1141
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: all that, but you know, so we really try to

1142
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: uh you know, dig in and and and of course

1143
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: that's primarily on the on the publicist, but we try

1144
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: to really that's what we we what we absolutely hope

1145
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: for and and it can have a huge impact. I mean,

1146
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: I think like of a print piece like Jason Isbell

1147
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: when the Southeastern record came out, we we uh that

1148
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: record came out I think on June eleven, and I

1149
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: think it was back when we had Tuesday Street Days

1150
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: and on the June two Sunday New York Times. I

1151
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: think it was Dwite Gardner that wrote the piece. But

1152
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: like that peace was the thing that let the fuse

1153
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: because it told the story so viewed of flee and

1154
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: believe me, the you know, the everybody on the team,

1155
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: the publicists, you know, shared that New York Times Sunday

1156
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: piece with everybody else. And then we got Terry Gross

1157
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: and then we got you know, because it was just

1158
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: such an important, uh and beautiful piece explaining where this

1159
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: music came from. That you know, we we definitely look

1160
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: for those kinds of opportunities and again some will have

1161
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: more impact. You know, The New York Times Sunday magazine

1162
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: doesn't do many music pieces, you know, so when we

1163
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: get when we get one like that, it can it

1164
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: can really be a you know, like I said, that's

1165
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that lights the fuse. So we

1166
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: you know, look, we just want to work hard and

1167
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: if anybody wants to help us tell the story, we

1168
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: welcome it. And you know, we don't you know. And

1169
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: again there's when it gets to the point of like, Okay,

1170
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: well we've got a kind of wigh out what it

1171
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: is that we're spending in order to get those impressions.

1172
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: But um, you know that's a consideration. But you know,

1173
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: we we just want to work as hard as we

1174
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: can to help people understand the magic with the artists

1175
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: that we work with in and we don't bring anybody

1176
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: in unless we think that there's magic there. And so

1177
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: we just don't want to leave anything on the table.

1178
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: What is your different and attitude towards satellite radio versus

1179
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: terrestaural radio. Obviously you want to play on on everything,

1180
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: but how important is satellite and how is it visa

1181
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: v ter restaurant? Um, honestly, I think they're I think

1182
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: they're equally important. I really do. I mean, if if

1183
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: you're a satellite radio uh subscriber, like you know, it's

1184
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: important enough for you that you're paying a subscription every

1185
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: month to be able to listen to Outlaw Country or

1186
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: Willie's Roadhouse or you know or whatever. I mean. You know,

1187
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: satellite allows a sort of a finer gradation of of

1188
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: of of choices, and and it's a it's a great Um,

1189
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: it's a great asset. But you know, um, but terrestrial radio,

1190
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's also hugely important. You know, you know,

1191
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: the the you know here in Nashville. Um, each of

1192
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: these you know, terrestrial radio stations has their own constituency.

1193
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: W h you know x NP, which is you know,

1194
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: kind of our equivalent of like a w XPN or

1195
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: a k c r W has their constituency. Lightning one

1196
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: hundred has their constituency. The country stations have their constituency,

1197
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: and and so, um, you know, it's like it's all

1198
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: it's all important. I mean, I don't. We don't really

1199
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: prior prioritize. We tried. We just tried. If it can,

1200
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: if we feel like it can fit on the station,

1201
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna show up and explain why we think our

1202
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: artist is special, and we're going to ask for their support.

1203
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: And we may get it, we may not get it,

1204
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: but we're going to show up and ask. So Okay,

1205
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: let's go to the third leg of the model, which

1206
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: is distribution. Where the rubber meets the road. That's where

1207
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: the transaction is. If the transaction that doesn't happen, thirty

1208
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: tigers doesn't make any money. Correct. So breakdown how you

1209
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: viewed distribution today the varying avenues. You know, we we obviously,

1210
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: streaming is hugely important. As you know, I've been a

1211
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: big advocate it and defender of the streaming uh you

1212
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: know model, and I and I uh, you know, I

1213
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: don't uh you know, and even people that argue, well,

1214
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: streaming as a means to an end, I'm like, nope,

1215
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: it is, you know, it is an end unto itself. Um.

1216
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: But you know, we we also place again having one

1217
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: person who does nothing in this company, who does nothing

1218
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: but communicate with indie retail stores. And I explained earlier

1219
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: why we place an inordinate amount of importance on that

1220
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 1: because of the dissemination of the narrative. Um. I mean

1221
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: it's just you know, you know, it's all it's all

1222
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: important to us, and and you know, and people are

1223
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, even like c d S people are kind

1224
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: of like, you know, or do we even need to

1225
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 1: make CDs anymore. And I'm like, yes, if ten percent,

1226
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: if even ten percent of your audience chooses to to

1227
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: consume your music that way, and you don't make it

1228
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: available to them, uh, you're basically telling them you don't

1229
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: care about their you know, about their business. And so

1230
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 1: you know it. You have to manage inventory and uh

1231
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 1: and and you know, put appropriate um, you know, spend

1232
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 1: appropriate amounts of money and all that stuff. But but

1233
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: it's all important to is. I look at it like

1234
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: a customer service issue. If somebody gets inspired to uh

1235
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: consume your artists, then you better have music there the

1236
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: way that they want it. And you know, and we

1237
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, work with our our friends at the Orchard,

1238
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: and I do mean friends, Uh just there. I just

1239
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, I can't you want wind me up. And

1240
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: I'll talk all day long about all the ways in

1241
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: which they've been an incredible partner for us. But you know,

1242
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: we work with them, uh you know, six ways to

1243
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 1: Sunday to make sure that wherever our artists music can

1244
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: and should be that that we're getting the you know

1245
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: that we're there and um and on the streaming side,

1246
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, we definitely have you know, the Orchard definitely

1247
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: does their part, but we also build our own relationship

1248
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: its uh and and work you know. Just you know

1249
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: my background as a as a label regional, you know,

1250
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: I used to I mean, it was the salesman's rep

1251
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: to go to go take the order, uh and to

1252
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: do that. But but my job was to come in

1253
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: and paint with with finer detail on you know, what

1254
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: was the actor mean that the artist you know, or

1255
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 1: any particular record. Um, you know, the salesman couldn't keep

1256
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: all the specificity about what was going on with this

1257
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: record because he's selling a million here, shearre selling like

1258
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: a million records and I'm selling a small handful of records.

1259
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: So it's my job to paint in finer detail and

1260
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: to understand with the account what needs to be said

1261
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 1: to them too that's relevant to them, and and to

1262
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: help get the right outcome, to get the right order.

1263
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: Well that's you know, that's what we do with the DSPs.

1264
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: And I charged my you know, staff, I tell him like, look,

1265
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 1: at some point, no matter how great the orchard is, um,

1266
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, at some point because the volume of what

1267
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: they are charged with with handling, our number one priority

1268
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: may be their number six priority. And by the time

1269
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: the number six priority gets talked about. Um, probably the

1270
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,439
Speaker 1: person who is on the other side of the table

1271
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: is going dead inside a little bit. So it's important

1272
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: that we have that relationship so that we can you know,

1273
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: we can articulate why our number one priority is our

1274
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: number one priority, you know. So, um, so we we

1275
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: work with this region much much as you know people

1276
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 1: have in the past. It's you know, it's our job

1277
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: to have the relationships and pain and finder detail about

1278
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: our artists. Traditionally, well, if you look over the last

1279
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: ten years, hip hop and young pop has moved technologically forward.

1280
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: First they embrace streaming. Let's leave vinyl out because there

1281
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: are people who buy as souvenirs, people who buy the listen.

1282
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: It's a business unto itself. The audience that you tend

1283
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: to sell to is not children, not teenagers, but people

1284
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: who are older thinking people. Traditionally, I mean, in the

1285
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 1: last ten years, they have been the last to adopt

1286
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: new technologies. Do you find I mean, so, if you

1287
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: look at it, rock in general is the worst. If

1288
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: for no other reason, the acts keeps saying streaming is

1289
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 1: the devil. Okay, So first we had hip hop and

1290
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 1: then ironically country moved in. So to what degree have

1291
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: you seen the mixed change from physical to streaming and

1292
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,640
Speaker 1: then they're streaming? And to what degree does your do

1293
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: your acts had a sales file business? Well again, you know,

1294
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: I feel like, uh, we just try to push on

1295
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: every front that we can. I mean, you know, to

1296
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: take like no, no, no no, no, no, you're gonna do

1297
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: all that work. I'm asking. I'm pulling back saying in

1298
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: terms of a trend, what do you see as the

1299
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 1: trends and if you've seen movement since you've been doing it,

1300
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 1: or go back. I mean a little bit of progress,

1301
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: you know. But I mean I look at you know,

1302
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: like you had Ricky Lee Jones on you know a

1303
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, who we are very honored to work

1304
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: with and and you know, like her, her audience is

1305
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: is going to probably be some of the last people

1306
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: to adopt, you know, new technologies. And but you know,

1307
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's happening. And I think the streaming services

1308
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: are are are trying to you know, build communication. It's

1309
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: just part of the It's I think it's just part

1310
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:34,520
Speaker 1: of the natural arc of how technologies are adopted. And um,

1311
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, younger people are more comfortable with new technologies,

1312
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, than the older people. And I don't think

1313
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:43,799
Speaker 1: that there's much that we can do to alter that trend.

1314
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: And I know you're not asking what we're doing to

1315
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: alter that trend, but um, you know, it's you know,

1316
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: I think it's getting a little better, but it's not

1317
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: getting like, it's not getting better very quickly. So let's

1318
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: break down what percentage of revenues. We'll put vinyl in

1319
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: the mix. Okay, where is the money? Obviously is a

1320
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 1: huge markup on vinyl, uh, and you know there are

1321
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 1: very few costs on digital. But in terms at the

1322
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,560
Speaker 1: end of the day, when you look at your spreadsheet,

1323
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: where is the money being generated? Well, for us, about

1324
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: of the business is streaming. Well, i'd say digital because

1325
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 1: you know, we when we you know, get our you know,

1326
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: when we have all of our breakdowns, like Apple is

1327
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: includes the downloads. But you know, let's face it, the

1328
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,759
Speaker 1: majority of the money even from Apple is definitely in

1329
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: Apple Music and not you know, on iTunes and the downloading.

1330
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: So about of our sales are are come from the

1331
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:48,759
Speaker 1: digital side and then comes from from physical and uh.

1332
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: But on the commercial country label, um that you know,

1333
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: we we partner you know also are a partner in

1334
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 1: a joint venture commercial country label is uh you know

1335
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 1: with Sony of that number is is the streaming number

1336
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: or the digital number is appreciably higher? You know, it's

1337
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: probably like and the only reason why it might even

1338
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: be ninety ten is because we work with Scotty McCrary

1339
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: and he has a lot of fans who are you know,

1340
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 1: still by CDs and things like that. So but like

1341
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: Russell Dickerson, who's another one of our artists, is probably

1342
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 1: nineties six, four five or something like that. So it's

1343
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 1: it's um but but but for thirty tigers about these

1344
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: are astounding numbers in terms of what the average person thinks. Hey,

1345
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 1: the acts you work with, are they savvy to streaming

1346
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: or do you have to educate all of them? It's

1347
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 1: a mixed bag. I mean, we definitely have, you know, artists.

1348
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: But that's one of the reasons why I try to

1349
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 1: be so public about my uh, you know, these conversations,

1350
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: and you know, not just for our artists, but you know,

1351
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 1: all artists. I mean I think that you know, I

1352
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: think it's it's just important to it's it can be

1353
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:10,599
Speaker 1: a very complex issue and and and it's just it's

1354
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:14,679
Speaker 1: it's just, um, it's not as simple as Spotify good

1355
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: or Spotify bad. You know, it's you know, you know,

1356
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 1: the revenue streams can um. You know, people want to

1357
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 1: simplify things to an incredible degree. Like I know, one

1358
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: of the you know, kind of talking points that people

1359
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 1: that are have tend to be suspicious as streaming have

1360
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 1: used a lot. I see it on Twitter a lot.

1361
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: But you know, like only thirteen thousand artists earn you know,

1362
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: fifteen fifty thou dollars a year or more on Spotify.

1363
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, yes, but you know, okay, so

1364
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 1: be it. But but you know, for us, at least Spotify,

1365
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 1: just of what comes through the distribution channels, Spotify themselves

1366
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: is less than thirty pc of our business. And so

1367
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:01,439
Speaker 1: if you uh, and and given that they are h having,

1368
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, they are able to sell their own product

1369
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to D to C and on a

1370
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 1: road sales, Spotify probably in terms of their overall revenue mixes.

1371
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: So let's say, so then you're talking about an artist

1372
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: if if if the thirteen thousand artist is making the

1373
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 1: most successful artists on Spotify, uh is making fifty thou

1374
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 1: dollars I mean, you know, at least by our by

1375
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 1: our metrics, that's an artist who's earning two hundred thousand

1376
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: dollars from just from the prerecorded stuff. That doesn't include

1377
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: publishing revenue, that doesn't include what they make on the road,

1378
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: that doesn't include T shirts that they're selling. And so

1379
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 1: I think sometimes people cherry pick these, you know, these facts,

1380
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 1: and they put them out there and they don't really

1381
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: dig in and think about them contextually, and so and

1382
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 1: and and and I think it's destructive because and again,

1383
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: like I'll also recognize too that there's certain types of

1384
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: genres where, um, where the proportion of streaming is much

1385
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 1: higher than than than it is for ours. But I'm

1386
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: just using our experience as an example of how you

1387
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: can try to make an argument that sounds bad, but

1388
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 1: when you look at it in context and you take

1389
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 1: the time to explain, you know, you know, it sort

1390
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: of explained what that really means, then then it doesn't

1391
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: it's not so bad, and and or it's not as bad.

1392
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: But having said that, I don't want to diminish the

1393
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 1: experience of artists who are you know, the hundred and

1394
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 1: thirties thousand's most successful, hardest on Spotify because they're having

1395
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,799
Speaker 1: a hard time making a living. And and and honestly

1396
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I try to be so

1397
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 1: public in my and again, you know, I'm not holy.

1398
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 1: I don't think Spotify is like a you know, a

1399
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 1: hundred percent perfect or anything like that. You know, as

1400
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:55,360
Speaker 1: a liberal, I feel uncomfortable quoting Ronald Reagan, but he, uh,

1401
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: you know, said something very wise. If you if you

1402
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 1: agree with somebody of the time, uh, they're a friend

1403
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 1: and an ally, not a trader. And and uh, you know,

1404
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: I I feel like the conversation around this tends to

1405
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: get so polarized that the the you know, the nuance

1406
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 1: and the facts and the and the perspectives in the

1407
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: in the context gets completely lost. And it's a complex business,

1408
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 1: you know, you and if you're not a student of

1409
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 1: the game and you don't understand what's gonna go on,

1410
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna make some bad decisions. And independent artists those

1411
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 1: Spotify has democratized access and allowed a multitude of artists

1412
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,839
Speaker 1: to to to actually have a legitimate shot without asking

1413
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 1: anybody's permission to participate. If if they get despondent and

1414
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 1: give up because they feel like they can't possibly win. Well,

1415
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 1: that's not the right answer, and that's not true, that's

1416
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 1: not that's not how they should look at it. But

1417
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: but they do need to understand, you know, what the

1418
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 1: mix is, how they can succeed, how the fact that

1419
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 1: they're given uh an opportunity, how to how to slingshot that,

1420
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: and how to translate that into more success later on,

1421
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: and and it and it takes a lot of work,

1422
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 1: and and I just you know, it's like I just

1423
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: want people to have at least what I see as

1424
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: the information. But but again, like in the aftermath of

1425
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 1: of the Rolling Stone piece and your you know kind

1426
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 1: uh um um amplification of my thoughts and ideas. You know,

1427
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: I've heard from some very um you know, it's sort

1428
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: of astute critics about you know that. Again, we're like,

1429
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:34,280
Speaker 1: we largely agree with you. But here's some other things

1430
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: to think about. You know, like Tom Gray from the

1431
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: band Gomez. Um he you know, has an organization or

1432
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 1: started a movement called Broken Record. And you know, we

1433
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:48,799
Speaker 1: had a an incredibly thoughtful exchange about Okay, Tom, who

1434
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: I know and or met once and basically slags me

1435
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 1: all the time. I'm very interested. He's a very advocate

1436
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 1: for the artist. What did he say to you that

1437
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: you said, hmm, I didn't think of that. Well. I

1438
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: think the point that he made that hit the hardest

1439
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 1: for me, where I was kind of like, I need

1440
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 1: to consider this more. Was you know, a discussion about

1441
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,799
Speaker 1: the the the average price UH or the average revenue

1442
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 1: per consumer at Spotify and UM and how you know,

1443
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 1: because you know, you know, I was talking about how

1444
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:27,520
Speaker 1: the um you know, part of the reason why Spotify

1445
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,880
Speaker 1: pays less is because they have the freemium model to

1446
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 1: add supported model, which again you can make an argument

1447
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 1: that that depresses overall revenues, but I also make the

1448
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 1: argument that like, well, it's also bringing in revenues that

1449
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 1: we would never see with lower income UH consumers and

1450
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 1: UM and and and UM and I think even from

1451
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:53,639
Speaker 1: the standpoint of of like, you know, people that don't

1452
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 1: you know, we're ten dollars a month, and of course

1453
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, some people will say, well if they can't

1454
01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 1: afford ten dollars a month, and I'm like, well that

1455
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:01,800
Speaker 1: you're speaking I mean, you know, you're speaking from a

1456
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,719
Speaker 1: place of some you know, a certain amount of privilege

1457
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 1: when you know, dismiss you know, people to which a

1458
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 1: d and twenty dollars a year actually does make a

1459
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 1: little bit of a difference, you know, And are we

1460
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: going to exclude those people from you know, from the

1461
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 1: consumption of art and music like you know, and so

1462
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: and also people who are lower income as soon as

1463
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 1: they can afford you know, uh, you know, kind of

1464
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: come up a little bit more. I'm sure they don't

1465
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 1: love listening to ads. They probably rather listen to music

1466
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 1: without ads, and and they may you know, then turn

1467
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: into consumers. But we're either if we don't have that

1468
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: at least some option, then they're just not going to

1469
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 1: be that be there at all. They're not They're gonna

1470
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 1: going to be They're gonna be utterly non participatory and

1471
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:46,400
Speaker 1: in our business. But the point that he made that

1472
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: kind of you know, resonated with me is that he goes, well,

1473
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 1: that's not the only reason why those numbers continue to

1474
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 1: come down. He goes, Spotify has made the decision, in

1475
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 1: order to try to capture market share to do things

1476
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: like the family plan, where you know, you can get

1477
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 1: four people for fifteen dollars a month, and and the

1478
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 1: college student thing for for you know, five dollars a month,

1479
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: and so they are discounting, uh, you know, and making

1480
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: those decisions unilaterally when uh uh sixty plus percent of

1481
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 1: the revenues uh, you know are are you know with

1482
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 1: the artists And he's like and and and you know,

1483
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 1: they have the decision to make it. But but but

1484
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: like if if if they wanted to invite stakeholders to

1485
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 1: participate in in those discussions, that might go a long

1486
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 1: way towards artists not feeling uh, you know, aggrieved. And

1487
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 1: and then of course also the and then this is

1488
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 1: one of the things where personally I'm on the side

1489
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: is I wish that Spotify would um just drop their

1490
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 1: appeal for the CRB the raise in the CRB rate

1491
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: um and and uh and uh you know, and pay

1492
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: writers a little better. We all want that, at least

1493
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,599
Speaker 1: those on the artistic side. Uh. The unfortunate thing is

1494
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: just like the English commission, the government commission, they did along,

1495
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 1: they did hearings, they found out it was the labels,

1496
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: not Spotify and their deal. Just going back, because I

1497
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:19,280
Speaker 1: want to be on the record for people listening to this,

1498
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:23,879
Speaker 1: people seem to have forgotten that one of the reasons

1499
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 1: Spotify was so successful was because of the free tier

1500
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 1: which eliminated piracy. Spotify was not the very first reading

1501
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 1: Rhapsody existed in America for over a decade. And so

1502
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: the people you know who I mean, do I wish

1503
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: that YouTube paid a little bit more? Yes, But interestingly,

1504
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: real music fans tend to be on one of these

1505
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: streaming services as opposed to YouTube as far I mean,

1506
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 1: I'll be I'll be crashed. In terms of Tom's point, yes,

1507
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 1: Spotify will give you a seat in the table when

1508
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 1: you give him a seat in the studio. I mean,

1509
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 1: this is a this is a business. I mean I

1510
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:11,600
Speaker 1: I sat through all this with Steve, with Daniel k.

1511
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,439
Speaker 1: And if you think this guy see me, you haven't

1512
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 1: met him. But uh, in the first part of the

1513
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:21,599
Speaker 1: first decade of this century, Okay, they have done. This

1514
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,560
Speaker 1: just makes me crazy about a soft business like artists

1515
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 1: and some of this stuff to science. I remember when

1516
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:33,679
Speaker 1: they went to the uh smartphone model and he said,

1517
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a free tier on the smartphone model

1518
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 1: and I said, no, there should be a line, and

1519
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 1: he says, we did all the research, we get higher

1520
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 1: conversion to paid and he convinced all the labels of this. Okay, well,

1521
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,839
Speaker 1: but and I think if I mean to to underline

1522
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 1: your point. Sorry for interrupting, but I'm enthusiastically agreeing. Like

1523
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 1: if you look at the again, I look at our

1524
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:58,760
Speaker 1: our thing, and the number of streams we get from

1525
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:03,040
Speaker 1: the subscription side compared to the freemium side, it's it's

1526
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: not even close. And so I mean people, it's it's

1527
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 1: it's such a good value that if people can afford

1528
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:12,639
Speaker 1: to pay, they're going to pay, and they have seen

1529
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,400
Speaker 1: that conversion, you know, rate so but I mean, but

1530
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 1: I do think, um, you know, I do think I

1531
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,839
Speaker 1: enjoyed the conversation with Tom. I thought it was very thoughtful,

1532
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 1: it was very respectful, and you know, as long as

1533
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:29,599
Speaker 1: people are engaging and open to, you know, other people's

1534
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: ideas and thoughts. But but but also at a certain point,

1535
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, I remember one time back when I was

1536
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 1: selling records to Hastings, and I don't even remember what

1537
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: the issue was, but I think it had something to

1538
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 1: do with a Robert r'keene record and whether he was

1539
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 1: going to be put into country or or you know,

1540
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:47,960
Speaker 1: or having an Americana section or something. But any rate,

1541
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 1: I was talking with Steve Hicks, who was the buyer,

1542
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: and I was very impassionate about like what needed to happen.

1543
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 1: He was like, hey, hey, David, guess what I said.

1544
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: What because there are stores not yours, and you know,

1545
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,720
Speaker 1: it was like it's a valuable thing to you know,

1546
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 1: to learn. So I mean I feel, you know, like

1547
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, I don't feel like you know, I mean,

1548
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, Tom even said like, look,

1549
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 1: you know Spotify, you know, like they'll talk to me

1550
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,920
Speaker 1: and and and you know, and and and all that,

1551
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,080
Speaker 1: and again I think that there are some valid critiques,

1552
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 1: but you know, uh, it's like, you know, but let's

1553
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 1: have those conversations. Let's have them respectfully, but like let's uh,

1554
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, and let's all work towards the met a bit.

1555
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: But any system, I mean, one thing that I wrote

1556
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:32,439
Speaker 1: at the end of my thing, any any streaming were

1557
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 1: bad for the ecosystem, Like any system that promotes uh

1558
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 1: uh you know, uh you know, in like an incredible

1559
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:45,800
Speaker 1: explosion of access for independent artists also which is raised

1560
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:49,360
Speaker 1: revenues by helped raise revenues from at least here in

1561
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 1: America by sev over the last six years, is not

1562
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: a broken system. And one of the reasons why I

1563
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 1: was such an advocate early on about streaming and what

1564
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: why I felt it was going was going to happen.

1565
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:03,719
Speaker 1: Was I picked up the phone and I called people

1566
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:10,920
Speaker 1: in Sweden where back by um they had scaled the

1567
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 1: of the total revenues in the music business and in

1568
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 1: Sweden was through streaming. And I asked, like, well, what happened?

1569
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 1: How is your business? Are you doing more business? I

1570
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: talked to a couple of artist managers. They were happy

1571
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 1: with what they were seeing, you know, and it's just,

1572
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's been a good thing. Is

1573
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:29,840
Speaker 1: the room for you know? Are there some things that

1574
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 1: I wish they would do differently? Absolutely? But I just,

1575
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 1: you know it when the conversation turned from you know,

1576
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: and like the Joe Rogan thing, like look, artists can

1577
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: follow their conscience and do whatever they want. They can,

1578
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I don't really have an opinion

1579
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,960
Speaker 1: about that necessarily, and and you know, artists can come

1580
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 1: to their own conclusion. But it quickly turned from uh, well,

1581
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, like okay, well they're they're you know, angry

1582
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 1: about Joe Rogan. Where have you been? You know, like

1583
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 1: the real crime is how much they're fucking artists and

1584
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:00,960
Speaker 1: how much they're not paying. And I was like, well,

1585
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:04,559
Speaker 1: that is not my experience, nor the experience of a

1586
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:07,479
Speaker 1: lot of the artists that that we work with, and

1587
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, so I just it's and again like it's

1588
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: a you know, it's a it's a complex thing, and

1589
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it takes some time and some

1590
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 1: nuance to try to explain it all. But like I I,

1591
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, I feel driven to from my experience to

1592
01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:25,920
Speaker 1: try to talk about this stuff because it's important. You know, artists,

1593
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:28,600
Speaker 1: if they're going to succeed, they have to understand the

1594
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,240
Speaker 1: state of play. And I'm going to do my part

1595
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:33,479
Speaker 1: to try to help tell it from my viewpoint. But

1596
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm also going to remain open to other people's ideas

1597
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 1: and and you know, because it's it's fun to learn.

1598
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 1: It's fun to to hear other people's ideas, even if

1599
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 1: you don't agree with them. Okay, I want to comment

1600
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: on that a little bit. Um And this is what

1601
01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 1: people get angry with me about. But I hear from

1602
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 1: these people all along. The people I hear from most

1603
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 1: are the people with no traction. They believe that their

1604
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 1: future was stolen by the Internet. Then you have people

1605
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 1: who were sustained by the old model who were never

1606
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: in the black ever on their record royalties. Somebody moved

1607
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:12,519
Speaker 1: their cheese and they can't handle it. The other thing

1608
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 1: is I remember watching Bill Maher both these stories going

1609
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,879
Speaker 1: to be from Bill Maher, and he had Paul Krugman,

1610
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 1: the economists and Jesse whatever, who had been the governor

1611
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: of Minnesota. And he kept on talking Jesse, all the

1612
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 1: farmers getting screwed, the government's taking the money. And Paul's

1613
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 1: got his hand and said, he goes, those are you

1614
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 1: have a completely opposite it's farm supports. They're not taking

1615
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 1: the money, they're giving the money. And the other thing, uh,

1616
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:44,120
Speaker 1: that Bill mart You know, he'd like to play in

1617
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:48,720
Speaker 1: the NBA, but he's five seven. So now since it's

1618
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 1: been Democratye, the number one thing in this world, well

1619
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 1: subsequent to information in general, is access. And what people

1620
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:01,920
Speaker 1: don't realize is when you start in falsehoods, you can

1621
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:07,080
Speaker 1: get no access. Like occasionally these big business titans will

1622
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 1: sit and be bombarded by these people. But if you

1623
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 1: look at the titans and the music business people running

1624
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 1: the major labels, they are never accessible. Never Lucy and

1625
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 1: Grange never did a public thing. The head to the

1626
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 1: other two labels never did a public thing because they're

1627
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:28,639
Speaker 1: inundated with the sour grapes. As you say, they are

1628
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:33,519
Speaker 1: running a business, and in all other walks of life,

1629
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 1: to the winners go the spoils. But in addition, Daniel

1630
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: Lex said, and it's actually more is going to the

1631
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: so called long tail. And you're not entitled to make

1632
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 1: a living in the arts. So if you want to

1633
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:53,439
Speaker 1: talk to the people who can help you out, you

1634
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:55,679
Speaker 1: should know the lay of the land. If someone's gonna

1635
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 1: talk to you or Danny Bush or any of these labels,

1636
01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:02,719
Speaker 1: they come in Spotify is to devil it. They're gonna say, yeah, fine,

1637
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 1: I never want to talk to that guy again. You know,

1638
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,800
Speaker 1: is it hard being an artist? These are distribution platforms.

1639
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,479
Speaker 1: They're based on numbers. There's so much misinformation. You know.

1640
01:28:15,640 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: I'll write you know, uh, you talk about the whole thing,

1641
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:22,679
Speaker 1: and I agree, totally became less about what Rogan said

1642
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 1: about Spotify the platform. But I'll write something. I'll talk

1643
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:27,960
Speaker 1: about the free tier, and I'll get an email after

1644
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:31,599
Speaker 1: I said we should put your playlists on Title. Well,

1645
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:33,919
Speaker 1: Title doesn't have a free tier, and as the smallest

1646
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 1: market share of all people. I literally wrote it. It's

1647
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 1: what you're responding to. So it gets very frustrating. And again,

1648
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think if you know, this is where

1649
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 1: consumers have agency, if you if you you know, if

1650
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:52,720
Speaker 1: you care about that, then uh, then go go be

1651
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 1: a title subscriber. I mean this, this is where the

1652
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 1: marketplace you know can speak to it. A lot of

1653
01:28:57,320 --> 01:28:59,639
Speaker 1: people are doing that, and I think that's that's great,

1654
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 1: and that's that's what everybody you know. But but but

1655
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 1: like but also just be informed about it. And also

1656
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: again like I try to be when I talk about

1657
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:13,680
Speaker 1: this stuff, I do want to be respectful about you know,

1658
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:18,280
Speaker 1: everybody's you know, experienced, uh you know about it, and

1659
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:21,880
Speaker 1: I try to try to be um you know when

1660
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, like when I talked about the you know,

1661
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 1: my piece about well, you know, sixt of businesses in

1662
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:31,240
Speaker 1: America fail within ten years, and you know, and when

1663
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, I mean and and honestly as a person

1664
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:38,080
Speaker 1: who started a business and um and worked really hard

1665
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 1: and it was by no means certainty. I mean, you know,

1666
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 1: I paid myself forty thousand dollars a year for the

1667
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: first you know, many many years of the company, and

1668
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 1: I did not make a profit, and I came out

1669
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:49,760
Speaker 1: of the major label world. I was making you know,

1670
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:52,320
Speaker 1: a lot more money than than that. But I believed

1671
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,000
Speaker 1: in what I was doing, and I lived very frugally

1672
01:29:55,080 --> 01:29:58,760
Speaker 1: and worked really hard to make my business work. And

1673
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 1: I know other people do the same. Um. But when

1674
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:06,080
Speaker 1: I see you know, a nail salon, you know, closed down,

1675
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:10,320
Speaker 1: or a restaurant closed down, that's somebody's dream. That's that's

1676
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 1: that's died that, you know. And not to say that

1677
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 1: other dreams can't come up, but like I have great

1678
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:17,000
Speaker 1: empathy for that, Um, I really do. And you know,

1679
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:20,040
Speaker 1: but but you know, it's it's that's uh, you know,

1680
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: that's a natural occurrence. And I want people The thing is,

1681
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,080
Speaker 1: I want people's dreams to come through. I want artists

1682
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 1: to succeed. Not everyone is going to. If you don't,

1683
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:30,719
Speaker 1: if your music does not connect to the point where

1684
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: you it brings enough monetary value in you, you then

1685
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:37,599
Speaker 1: whether you deserve to make a living or don't deserve

1686
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:39,600
Speaker 1: to make a living, that's that's you know, that's a

1687
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 1: subjective thing. The fact is, if you don't bring it

1688
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: enough money, you're not going to make a living. So

1689
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,360
Speaker 1: look at the situation for what it really is and

1690
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 1: get ready to work your fucking ass off, because that's

1691
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:52,479
Speaker 1: what it takes. That's what I did, That's what you know,

1692
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:55,879
Speaker 1: that's what many many other artists. I think about Charlie Crockett,

1693
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 1: That motherfucker works harder than anybody I know, and he

1694
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 1: is succeeded because his music is great and he works

1695
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 1: his ass off, and it's like, that's what it takes

1696
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:08,640
Speaker 1: to that. I think that's what I really want to

1697
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 1: come out of out of this discussion. And if people

1698
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:16,200
Speaker 1: aren't going to look at it realistically and again, like

1699
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:20,800
Speaker 1: I don't presume that I have a lock on on

1700
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 1: what the truth is. I mean, I need to be

1701
01:31:22,840 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: humble enough to be open and learn, and I do.

1702
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 1: And I'm talking to Tom, and I'm talking to all

1703
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 1: kinds of people that have have you know, opened the

1704
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 1: door for conversations, for respectful conversations about this. You know,

1705
01:31:34,240 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: I think I think you know that's important. But but

1706
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 1: if if if you're if you are giving into despondency

1707
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 1: or you're just you're you're you're just not looking at

1708
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 1: it right, then you're not going to make the decisions

1709
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 1: that you the right decisions that you need to be

1710
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 1: able to succeed. That's just that's just the way that

1711
01:31:52,400 --> 01:32:02,559
Speaker 1: it is. Everybody from the boomer generation who works in

1712
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 1: the music business used to be a player and they

1713
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 1: woke up one day and they said, I'm not good enough.

1714
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 1: There's a whole business based on giving people false hope.

1715
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: All these sites online will get your gigs whatever. I

1716
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,519
Speaker 1: like to be the voice on the other side, because

1717
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's that Don Henley song. Doesn't happen to

1718
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 1: be a great song, but I love the line it goes,

1719
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 1: how bad do you want it? Not bad enough? You know?

1720
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 1: You know I'll get you know all the time? Well, yeah, yeah,

1721
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: you know Spotify payments. I am I supposed to get

1722
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 1: pay for my car and pay for my house and

1723
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 1: my kids. Who told you to buy a house, who

1724
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:39,479
Speaker 1: told you to have a car, who told you get married?

1725
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 1: It's amazing how many how much people have sacrificed. Let

1726
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 1: me move on a little bit though, In terms of

1727
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 1: the revenue from streaming, how does it break down amongst

1728
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: the varying services, Well, Spotify is a number one uh customer,

1729
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 1: you know app Apple is close behind uh um, and

1730
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 1: then uh and then you know Amazon's you know, come

1731
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 1: way up. YouTube is a is a you know, is

1732
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:08,639
Speaker 1: a you know, pretty big contribute. I don't I should

1733
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 1: have prepared for this, and I don't have the exact breakdown,

1734
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 1: but I would say between uh, I mean Spotify is right,

1735
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 1: it's just a little under thirty so whatever, like thirty

1736
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 1: divided by you know, that's what they're you know, proportion

1737
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:26,559
Speaker 1: is at Apple's you know is not not that far behind.

1738
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 1: So and the others are are are coming. I mean

1739
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:31,759
Speaker 1: no Amazon has done you know, they're working really hard

1740
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:36,800
Speaker 1: and you know that's coming up. So I would say, um, yeah,

1741
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 1: I don't you know, yeah, I don't know. It's probably

1742
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: not gonna be really compelling compelling listening to to to

1743
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:45,600
Speaker 1: hear me cipher on well we're taking I'm not going

1744
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:48,439
Speaker 1: to annail you on the percentages. Um, let me go

1745
01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:52,640
Speaker 1: to the next thing, which is, okay, playlisting and access

1746
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 1: to what degree is this hell take done by the

1747
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 1: orchard into what degree is it done by you? And

1748
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 1: how important relationships and how are important getting on playlists? Well,

1749
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 1: I think this is a big a little you know, understand.

1750
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: I mean again, I think that I think people are

1751
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:16,080
Speaker 1: much more conspiratorial than is the truth. I mean, the

1752
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:20,080
Speaker 1: fact is spot Spotify over the last few years has

1753
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,360
Speaker 1: has really, um, not completely walled off access to their people,

1754
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:29,519
Speaker 1: but um, they've made it a real priority to like

1755
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 1: to to lessen than the influence of the industry. And

1756
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 1: I think that's a wise thing to do. And I'm

1757
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,639
Speaker 1: I'm just speaking about Spotify. I mean Apple, I think

1758
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 1: is the same way. I'm you know, I don't mean

1759
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: to keep harping on that, but I guess because Spotify

1760
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: has been so top of mind for me the last

1761
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. You know, it's easy for me to

1762
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:52,080
Speaker 1: go there. But I think that you know, we you know,

1763
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 1: we advocate, Um, I feel like we're heard. Um. I

1764
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:01,719
Speaker 1: feel like if if they understand h sort of why

1765
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 1: we think that an artist is is special, they'll they'll

1766
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:07,760
Speaker 1: give it a they'll give it a shot. Maybe, you know,

1767
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:11,120
Speaker 1: maybe not. Sometimes I'm surprised that we don't get support

1768
01:35:11,160 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 1: on certain things, but you know, it's uh um. But

1769
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of thought goes into it.

1770
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:18,719
Speaker 1: I remember a conversation we were having I was having

1771
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 1: with somebody there about Josh Ritter. This is a very

1772
01:35:21,479 --> 01:35:24,880
Speaker 1: big learning moment for me. Um, Josh Ritter. You know,

1773
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 1: has traditionally been really uh solid on in like the

1774
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 1: kind of folk singer songwriter type of playlists. And I

1775
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:34,599
Speaker 1: was talking with somebody about Spotify about you know kind

1776
01:35:34,600 --> 01:35:36,200
Speaker 1: of like, well, I'm you know, I'm surprised that we're

1777
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 1: not getting more support from Josh Ritter and you know,

1778
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:40,599
Speaker 1: he's been a big deal and all that stuff. And

1779
01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:44,559
Speaker 1: the person said, uh that I was speaking to you, said, well,

1780
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. I mean, Josh, you know,

1781
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:49,519
Speaker 1: did this more of a rock approach? And there's drums on,

1782
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, on that record, and yet you guys submitted

1783
01:35:52,280 --> 01:35:55,400
Speaker 1: for uh, you know this, you know, like my favorite

1784
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 1: coffee house or whatever, and like there are we just

1785
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 1: don't like things with drums. That's not the vibe and

1786
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:02,320
Speaker 1: all that stuff. So it was kind of putting it

1787
01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: back on us, like, you know, perhaps you didn't ask

1788
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:08,000
Speaker 1: for the right thing. And they don't have the space

1789
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,639
Speaker 1: too necessarily. I mean, they get inundated. It's like they're

1790
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:13,599
Speaker 1: there there, it's like they're getting shot with a fire

1791
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 1: hose in terms of the number of artists they get

1792
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 1: and the number of requests that they get. And so

1793
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:23,320
Speaker 1: whoever was programming that playlist, um the thing that we

1794
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 1: submitted did not fit you know, that the you know,

1795
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:29,360
Speaker 1: the thing that we were asking for. And so even

1796
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 1: though they you know, I feel like they love us,

1797
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 1: they respect us, but like they they you know, we

1798
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:37,760
Speaker 1: didn't get what we were, you know, asking for, So

1799
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:41,679
Speaker 1: it's not it's not um. And and also we'll start

1800
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:43,919
Speaker 1: off with artists on on some of the lower playlists

1801
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:46,400
Speaker 1: and we will only as much as they like us.

1802
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 1: We will only grow onto other playlists. If our music

1803
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:52,800
Speaker 1: works in that thing, they will then spread it. So

1804
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like, you know, Spotify wants to

1805
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 1: create and I'm Apple too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for

1806
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:01,759
Speaker 1: my friends and other DSPs that I keep saying Spotify,

1807
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:04,680
Speaker 1: but you know, but they they want to create an

1808
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:08,679
Speaker 1: environment in these rooms where in these in these you know, playlists.

1809
01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 1: They want to create a sonic experience that works for

1810
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 1: the that meets the expectation of that person. If we

1811
01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:17,559
Speaker 1: if you're promoting music, no matter how much what they

1812
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:20,600
Speaker 1: like you or how much access they have, they're in

1813
01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:23,719
Speaker 1: business to meet their customers expectations. If you're not meeting

1814
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:26,759
Speaker 1: their customers expectations, I don't care how much they like you,

1815
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: You're not gonna it's not gonna work, you know, and

1816
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: so um and I feel like I feel like that

1817
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 1: that's the reality of the situation. So all this talk

1818
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 1: about like you know, access and people scratching each other's back,

1819
01:37:38,960 --> 01:37:40,760
Speaker 1: it was probably a little more that way, to be honest,

1820
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:42,600
Speaker 1: about four or five years ago. I don't feel like

1821
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:46,240
Speaker 1: it's really that way now or or as much, you know,

1822
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:50,360
Speaker 1: but do do do we Probably because of the quality

1823
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 1: of our you know, of what we put out, in

1824
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:55,759
Speaker 1: the high success rate that we have, of of of

1825
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:58,040
Speaker 1: of the you know, of the of our music in

1826
01:37:58,080 --> 01:38:02,760
Speaker 1: certain genres, might we get an opportun tunity uh that

1827
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, might they give us the benefit of the

1828
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 1: doubt of an opportunity? Probably? And that's what our job

1829
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:11,400
Speaker 1: is is to you know, be great advocates for our

1830
01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 1: for our artists and try to you know, get them

1831
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:15,519
Speaker 1: on the path to success. But it doesn't you know,

1832
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:18,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't always work. But I feel like that's that

1833
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 1: is a big point of misinformation as far as like

1834
01:38:21,120 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: the the um you know, how how you know, corrupt

1835
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 1: the you know, the process is. I feel like it's

1836
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:33,479
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty above board in my experience. Okay, let's

1837
01:38:33,479 --> 01:38:35,519
Speaker 1: go to the other side of the fence. Let's assume

1838
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 1: you get on the playlist. A couple of questions here,

1839
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: how effective or playlists is opposed to songs just picked specifically,

1840
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 1: And let's assume you're on the playlist, tell us about

1841
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:53,080
Speaker 1: them saying, Hey, people saved it, we're gonna move you

1842
01:38:53,120 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: to other things. Or people didn't save it, we're gonna

1843
01:38:55,080 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 1: drop it. Yeah, I mean, we get that kind of feedback,

1844
01:38:57,439 --> 01:39:00,040
Speaker 1: you know, all the time. But one thing to that,

1845
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 1: I feel like people like when when things get on

1846
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:05,840
Speaker 1: a playlist, there's a lot of passive listening that happens

1847
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: on that playlist, you know, especially probably kind of the

1848
01:39:08,240 --> 01:39:10,280
Speaker 1: more acoustic things and and all that stuff. I mean,

1849
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:12,719
Speaker 1: you know, we had one of our acts, I won't

1850
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, name names, but they were very popular because

1851
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 1: um the playlist, because it just sort of fit what,

1852
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,639
Speaker 1: you know, the you know, what was happening. They didn't

1853
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 1: have you know, they had a very low skip rate

1854
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 1: because it it fit the you know, the atmosphere that

1855
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:32,000
Speaker 1: that the that the playlists were trying to foster. And

1856
01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:34,760
Speaker 1: you know that we were getting you know, ten and

1857
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:39,720
Speaker 1: twenty million, twenty million streams on their music and you know,

1858
01:39:39,800 --> 01:39:42,719
Speaker 1: they went out thinking like, oh, well, god, we're getting

1859
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 1: all these streams. Then you know, we'll go out and

1860
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 1: you know they and they overshot when they were touring.

1861
01:39:48,560 --> 01:39:51,600
Speaker 1: You know, I went to a few shows that you

1862
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 1: know where the room was a third full, you know,

1863
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:58,479
Speaker 1: because you know, the the a lot of that listening

1864
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:01,120
Speaker 1: is very passive, you know, you think, I mean, one

1865
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,720
Speaker 1: of the numbers that I care about the least is

1866
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:05,679
Speaker 1: the number of you know, when you say like somebody

1867
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:10,200
Speaker 1: has so many monthly listeners, that number needs virtually nothing

1868
01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:13,760
Speaker 1: to me. Because if you're on a series of playlists

1869
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 1: and you get any you know, any listening at all,

1870
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:18,400
Speaker 1: no matter how passive it is, you're going to show

1871
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:20,599
Speaker 1: up on there. And that doesn't mean that you've made

1872
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 1: a fan. You know, it's it's a it's a you know,

1873
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: it's an opportunity to be heard. It's an opportunity for revenue,

1874
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 1: but it is not an opportunity. This is not you know,

1875
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 1: when you're passive listening on on on, you know, Spotify,

1876
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 1: the revelation of who the artist is and you know

1877
01:40:39,600 --> 01:40:42,200
Speaker 1: why their music flows from them as inevitable, which is

1878
01:40:42,240 --> 01:40:44,320
Speaker 1: when you're gonna make fans, and when you're going to

1879
01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 1: like build lifelong relationships with fans. That doesn't happen in that,

1880
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, in that in in a passive listening environment

1881
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:55,479
Speaker 1: like that. And so you know, it's great, it's a

1882
01:40:55,600 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 1: it's a it's an introduction. But if you're not prepared

1883
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:01,679
Speaker 1: to then extrapolate that conversation and you know, with long

1884
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:04,679
Speaker 1: form narrative and and and and help fill in the gap,

1885
01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:08,840
Speaker 1: then you're you're you're going to you're not going to

1886
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 1: do well, You're not you're you know, it's like you're

1887
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,080
Speaker 1: not doing the full job. And but that's why we

1888
01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:16,080
Speaker 1: don't you know, sign acts who we just think are like, oh,

1889
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, we'll get playlisted and you know, and and

1890
01:41:18,680 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 1: if it cashes on then we're gonna do It's like

1891
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:25,200
Speaker 1: that is you know, playlisting is not artist development period. Okay,

1892
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:28,040
Speaker 1: so how many people at your company speak to the

1893
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:32,160
Speaker 1: DSPs and how frequently do you three? And all the time,

1894
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, we we haven't split out well, I guess,

1895
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:38,040
Speaker 1: I guess technically now i'd say yeah, three. I mean

1896
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:41,320
Speaker 1: because one of them we have somebody who specifically focuses

1897
01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:44,080
Speaker 1: on video content and so that's you know, they probably

1898
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: do more the heavy lifting when it comes to YouTube. Um,

1899
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, but the other two and you know, and

1900
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 1: I also you know, I mean I speak to everybody,

1901
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:54,639
Speaker 1: you know, everywhere, and every now and again and again

1902
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 1: I want to put my people in a position to

1903
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:59,200
Speaker 1: do their jobs and and and and but every now

1904
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:02,160
Speaker 1: and again, call somebody it's Spotify and just be like,

1905
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:04,000
Speaker 1: I think you're missing this one. I think you're missing

1906
01:42:04,000 --> 01:42:06,120
Speaker 1: this one. Here's what's going on. And maybe I'll get

1907
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:08,719
Speaker 1: a result, and maybe I won't get a result, but um,

1908
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:10,320
Speaker 1: but you know, but but day in and day out,

1909
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 1: we have three people that are are focused on that.

1910
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:15,920
Speaker 1: And to what degree can you get access to the

1911
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:19,960
Speaker 1: playlist creators themselves as opposed to people higher up the

1912
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 1: food virtually none. I mean to be honest with you, like,

1913
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know who programs my favorite

1914
01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 1: coffee house and that's a huge playlist for us, and

1915
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 1: I don't think you know, I mean, it goes through

1916
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:33,680
Speaker 1: the pitch tool and and again like it's it's a

1917
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a dictate from Spotify that they

1918
01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:41,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's like they want their people listening to

1919
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: the music and making judgments on the music. They want

1920
01:42:44,400 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 1: to have less influence of because you know, it's like

1921
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:50,240
Speaker 1: people are in their ears all the time and spending

1922
01:42:50,240 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 1: their time, they're not focusing on the music. And and

1923
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:58,080
Speaker 1: again like sixty thousand tracks a day, so people are

1924
01:42:58,120 --> 01:43:01,320
Speaker 1: are are utilizing the pitch tool. I mean, it's just

1925
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:04,120
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an unbelievable task to try to get

1926
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:07,719
Speaker 1: through all of that music and make judgments that will

1927
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, help Spotify create you know, create those playlists

1928
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 1: in those rooms. And so I think that's a wise

1929
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,000
Speaker 1: decision on their part. But that's you know, that's just

1930
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:17,599
Speaker 1: a fact of the matter. I mean, it's just not

1931
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 1: a I mean, I think that's one of the biggest

1932
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 1: things that people don't understand about you know, Apple, Spotify, ETCeteras,

1933
01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:28,040
Speaker 1: is to the degree they'll take our input, um, just

1934
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:30,760
Speaker 1: as as anybody you know in any walk of the

1935
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:33,400
Speaker 1: business will take our input. But it's it's it's like,

1936
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:35,719
Speaker 1: you know, we hear you. Maybe it'll have an impact,

1937
01:43:35,800 --> 01:43:37,720
Speaker 1: maybe it won't have an impact, but it's like it's

1938
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 1: not it's not like, you know, we can just snap

1939
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 1: our fingers. And that goes with the you know, with

1940
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,439
Speaker 1: the major labels too. I'm I'm you know, I'm certain

1941
01:43:44,479 --> 01:43:46,559
Speaker 1: of it. They don't, you know, they're there and they're

1942
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:48,680
Speaker 1: advocating and doing their part, but it's not like they

1943
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:51,639
Speaker 1: just can snap their fingers and all of a sudden,

1944
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:53,559
Speaker 1: you know, get everything that they want. And I think

1945
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:56,920
Speaker 1: the proportion I mean I did in preparation for having

1946
01:43:56,960 --> 01:44:00,000
Speaker 1: that conversation with Rolling Stone, I just picked a playlist

1947
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: at random, and I picked New Boots because, um, you know,

1948
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 1: for country, you kind of think, well, countries dominated by

1949
01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 1: major labels and all that stuff. And I looked and

1950
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:12,559
Speaker 1: went through I went through every single track and looked

1951
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 1: at the copyright line of the acts. And some of

1952
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:18,519
Speaker 1: those acts may have labels that are really just them,

1953
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:20,840
Speaker 1: but they just got it. But but I didn't even

1954
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:23,600
Speaker 1: count those. But I counted twenty artists that the copyright

1955
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 1: line was just their name, and so they that artists

1956
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 1: uploaded themselves through tune cores and and they were given

1957
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:33,559
Speaker 1: a shot and and and that that music, like all

1958
01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:37,280
Speaker 1: the music that I heard, was really good. And um,

1959
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 1: so they don't have anybody that you know, they don't

1960
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:45,639
Speaker 1: have anybody calling Spotify and and uh trying to convince them.

1961
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:49,080
Speaker 1: Spotify made those decisions strictly on the quality of the music.

1962
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 1: And and again like if you're an independent artist, like

1963
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:55,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's like it's important that you

1964
01:44:55,360 --> 01:44:59,599
Speaker 1: know that you know, don't get despondent, make your best music,

1965
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:03,040
Speaker 1: get it there, Understand the state of play, Understand the environment.

1966
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:06,080
Speaker 1: But like you know, go take you know, shoot your shot.

1967
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:08,920
Speaker 1: And and you know, I feel like the DSPs have

1968
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:12,599
Speaker 1: have largely stepped up. I think it's much better now

1969
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,000
Speaker 1: for them than it was even five years ago. You know,

1970
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: occasionally there's big promotions on the home page, etcetera. Is

1971
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:21,439
Speaker 1: that an opportunity that ever comes to you, like with

1972
01:45:21,479 --> 01:45:25,160
Speaker 1: a Jason Isabel or is that really just for worldwide stars?

1973
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 1: I think if it's like a like a full cross

1974
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: platform you know type of thing, you know, they're probably

1975
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:34,280
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna do certain things for the Beyonce's that

1976
01:45:34,360 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 1: they're not maybe going to do with ours. But you know,

1977
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,519
Speaker 1: but we you know, but they're they're definitely open to

1978
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 1: us doing things that are you know, major looks for

1979
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 1: the audience that that artist has. You know, they've they've

1980
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:49,479
Speaker 1: done you know, you know, they've done some you know,

1981
01:45:49,520 --> 01:45:54,160
Speaker 1: we've done some pretty you know, impactful promotions with you

1982
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:57,400
Speaker 1: know all the DSPs, and I think that um, you

1983
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:01,559
Speaker 1: know the uh you know the sort of the you know,

1984
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 1: you know, the cover art, the you know sort of

1985
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: the you know the picture and you know who's on

1986
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 1: the Indigo playlist or on the on the you know,

1987
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 1: Apple Country playlists or whatever like. You know that those

1988
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:14,320
Speaker 1: those things, you know, you know, really matter. I know

1989
01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:17,439
Speaker 1: that's not the promotions that you're talking about, but um,

1990
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, I feel I feel that that we get,

1991
01:46:21,439 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 1: we get the opportunities that are appropriate to us. And

1992
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 1: what does the order? Obviously Orchard takes care of the

1993
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:30,840
Speaker 1: mechanics getting all these tunes to the varying places. What

1994
01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:34,719
Speaker 1: might they do in terms of promotion, promotion and pitching

1995
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,600
Speaker 1: themselves for your acts? You know, I think they probably

1996
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:42,840
Speaker 1: as a you know, I think that they reinforce a

1997
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:45,360
Speaker 1: lot of what it is that we're talking about. So

1998
01:46:45,360 --> 01:46:47,679
Speaker 1: they're they're a second voice, and we keep in constant

1999
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:50,559
Speaker 1: communication with them, and they keep in constant communication with us.

2000
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:56,719
Speaker 1: We're uh, you know, a very large you know label

2001
01:46:56,960 --> 01:47:00,400
Speaker 1: in there, you know, in their hierarchy. So know they've

2002
01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:02,639
Speaker 1: been they are very supportive of us, but we kind

2003
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:05,360
Speaker 1: of go in in in you know, in unison. But

2004
01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 1: we don't depend I mean that's just us. I mean

2005
01:47:07,479 --> 01:47:09,439
Speaker 1: we're big enough that we can have the staff to

2006
01:47:09,840 --> 01:47:13,080
Speaker 1: have the direct you know, conversations and the direct advocacy

2007
01:47:13,120 --> 01:47:14,800
Speaker 1: and they know what it is we're doing and they

2008
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,759
Speaker 1: reinforce and and that's great. I think where the Orchard

2009
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:21,479
Speaker 1: UM is a great asset is for companies that are

2010
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 1: perhaps a little smaller and can't afford the staff. You

2011
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:26,439
Speaker 1: know that we have to go in there and they go,

2012
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:30,559
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, fight the best fight and um,

2013
01:47:30,600 --> 01:47:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, and again they're they're just I think they're

2014
01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:34,920
Speaker 1: extraordinarily good at what they do. Okay, let's just get

2015
01:47:34,920 --> 01:47:37,120
Speaker 1: a little history quickly so people know who you are.

2016
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,680
Speaker 1: You grew up where Lakeland, Florida, and your parents did

2017
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:45,080
Speaker 1: what for a living? My dad was an engineer, not

2018
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:48,879
Speaker 1: not a trained engineer, but you know, a mechanical engineer.

2019
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:53,120
Speaker 1: He helped design phosphate plants, uh and things like that.

2020
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:58,840
Speaker 1: My mom was an artist, um and a visual artist

2021
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:03,679
Speaker 1: and so she painted. She was actually the Tampa Museum

2022
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:07,320
Speaker 1: of Modern Arts, uh Modern Artist of the Year in nine.

2023
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:09,240
Speaker 1: But she did a lot, she did a lot of

2024
01:48:09,240 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 1: work for UM. You know, she did do graphic design

2025
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 1: for like newspapers, and and you know, like you know,

2026
01:48:15,439 --> 01:48:18,400
Speaker 1: she would draw, you know, like when you had models, Uh,

2027
01:48:18,439 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, like she draw like, you know, kind of

2028
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 1: pencil drawings for ads for department stores, for to help

2029
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:26,800
Speaker 1: you help the newspapers. So um. So, you know, I

2030
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:29,800
Speaker 1: grew up with a certain but music was never part

2031
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:33,280
Speaker 1: of the the equation. I don't really know quite what

2032
01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:36,360
Speaker 1: happened that I became the music nut that I did,

2033
01:48:36,400 --> 01:48:40,679
Speaker 1: because that was not necessarily a priority in our our

2034
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:50,960
Speaker 1: in our household. Okay, a couple of things. How many

2035
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: kids in the family? What were you like in school?

2036
01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 1: Were you popular, not popular? Good or bad student? And

2037
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:00,120
Speaker 1: when you got into music, what kind of music were listening?

2038
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:03,400
Speaker 1: So first, how many kids in the family? Five? Initially

2039
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:06,760
Speaker 1: my mom my parents divorced when I was eleven. My

2040
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 1: mom got remarried and I was the last of five children. Um.

2041
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 1: And then when my mom got remarried seventeen years later,

2042
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:18,719
Speaker 1: she had my little brother, who's a wonderful guy's names Adam.

2043
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:21,519
Speaker 1: But you know, and you know, so but in the

2044
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:23,479
Speaker 1: in the you know, sort of the family that I

2045
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 1: grew up with five children, and uh, um, I'm sorry,

2046
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 1: what was that you asked another question. Well, it sounds

2047
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:33,200
Speaker 1: like you might have gotten lost in the shuffle. But

2048
01:49:33,280 --> 01:49:36,200
Speaker 1: you know, at that time in one's life, it's basically

2049
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:38,879
Speaker 1: about going to school. Were you a good student, bad students?

2050
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:41,679
Speaker 1: I was a good student. I was a good student.

2051
01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:44,800
Speaker 1: Uh you know, I graduated with you know, with with

2052
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:47,360
Speaker 1: with honors and and yeah, I was I was a

2053
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 1: good student, and I was a very uh I was

2054
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:53,000
Speaker 1: a good kid, you know, but I wasn't super popular,

2055
01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:55,040
Speaker 1: But nor was I like unpopped. I was just sort

2056
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:56,960
Speaker 1: of like there. I was just one of those people

2057
01:49:57,040 --> 01:49:59,680
Speaker 1: that you know, I was just kind of there and

2058
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 1: I had my group of friends, and you know, it

2059
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:04,759
Speaker 1: was it was you know, I played a lot of sports.

2060
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 1: I played baseball. I'm still an enormous baseball fan. Played

2061
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:10,800
Speaker 1: on the high school tennis team, and you know, I

2062
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:13,040
Speaker 1: was like, I was a good athlete. I wasn't a

2063
01:50:13,040 --> 01:50:15,000
Speaker 1: great athe I was a pretty good tennis player actually,

2064
01:50:15,080 --> 01:50:17,599
Speaker 1: but uh, um, you know that was kind of my world.

2065
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:20,720
Speaker 1: And um, but you know music, I was a big

2066
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:24,280
Speaker 1: music fan very early. And you know how like young

2067
01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 1: guys are like, you know, if you're like a young dude,

2068
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:29,760
Speaker 1: you build a lot of yourself esteem around being an

2069
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:32,759
Speaker 1: expert in something. And sometimes it's cars and sometimes it's sports.

2070
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:34,640
Speaker 1: But music was my thing. Like it was you know,

2071
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:36,960
Speaker 1: like I was the kid that knew at ten years

2072
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:39,160
Speaker 1: old all the members of Black Sabbath and and you know,

2073
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:41,479
Speaker 1: every year for Christmas, I'd get the Rolling Stone Record

2074
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 1: Guide or the Encyclopedia of Rock and and you know

2075
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:47,760
Speaker 1: that was social capital for me. And um. When I

2076
01:50:47,800 --> 01:50:51,920
Speaker 1: was fifteen, uh, you know, I got a job working

2077
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:55,479
Speaker 1: at a pizza place, uh, bussing tables. And in that

2078
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,479
Speaker 1: plaza was a little, you know, a store that was

2079
01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 1: part of a four store chain called Carousel Records. And

2080
01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:04,559
Speaker 1: I would take my my forty three dollar check you

2081
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,679
Speaker 1: know that I made for for busting table piece of restaurant.

2082
01:51:07,680 --> 01:51:10,400
Speaker 1: I'd cash it at the record store at Carousel, and

2083
01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:13,240
Speaker 1: I basically spin. I'd save ten bucks for gas from

2084
01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:15,320
Speaker 1: my moped to get me back and forth to work.

2085
01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:18,600
Speaker 1: I'd spend everything else on records and um, and I

2086
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:21,000
Speaker 1: was just consumed by it. And I had a routine

2087
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:25,599
Speaker 1: where every I think things like on Thursday, Rolling Stone

2088
01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:28,720
Speaker 1: would come out, and so every Thursday I would buy

2089
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone and I would take buy Rolling a Rolling

2090
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 1: Stone and a knee high Peach soda. I love knee

2091
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:37,599
Speaker 1: High Peach still do. And uh, and I go home

2092
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 1: and I would devour Rolling Stone and read it cover

2093
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 1: to cover and and some of the some of the

2094
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:45,320
Speaker 1: formation of my musical tastes, like I'll tell you to

2095
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:47,439
Speaker 1: two two artists that I now work with, and I'm

2096
01:51:47,479 --> 01:51:50,640
Speaker 1: still pinching myself and I remember, I remember this vis

2097
01:51:50,760 --> 01:51:54,800
Speaker 1: really like going to you know, reading the reviews for

2098
01:51:55,040 --> 01:51:57,599
Speaker 1: Steve Winwood Arc of a Diver and Ricky Lee Jones

2099
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 1: Pirates and they got five star reviews. And I got

2100
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 1: on my moped and I went and I bought those

2101
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:06,760
Speaker 1: records and I listened to him, and I just, Um,

2102
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:08,599
Speaker 1: the fact that I now get to work with both

2103
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:11,639
Speaker 1: of those artists is it's a little mind blowing to me.

2104
01:52:12,240 --> 01:52:16,600
Speaker 1: And uh, but I I so. Then when I was fifteen,

2105
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:19,960
Speaker 1: during Christmas of the year, um, I was you know

2106
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:22,519
Speaker 1: the store manager. Her name was Laura Harold, and you know,

2107
01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:24,439
Speaker 1: we developed a friendship because I was in there all

2108
01:52:24,479 --> 01:52:29,240
Speaker 1: the time. It was very tiny store, and she was

2109
01:52:29,240 --> 01:52:32,320
Speaker 1: complaining that her person that was gonna you know it

2110
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:35,160
Speaker 1: was interviewing for for Christmas help didn't show up for

2111
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:38,080
Speaker 1: the interview, and I was like, well, do I get

2112
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,559
Speaker 1: a discount if I work here? And she was like,

2113
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:42,680
Speaker 1: well for the time you work here, sure, and and

2114
01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:44,840
Speaker 1: so I was like, well, if you'll have me, I'll

2115
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 1: do it. And that's how I got my start in

2116
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:50,439
Speaker 1: the music business. And then after Christmas, I was expecting

2117
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,120
Speaker 1: to be you know, let go and and and all that.

2118
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: But the person who was there, her full time person.

2119
01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:58,760
Speaker 1: They're left and so I mean I was still in

2120
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:02,519
Speaker 1: high school, but like I arranged my schedule so like

2121
01:53:02,600 --> 01:53:05,200
Speaker 1: I was like after school, I went straight to the

2122
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:08,840
Speaker 1: record store and I would work weekends, but I became

2123
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 1: the you know, the full time person there. And Laura

2124
01:53:12,479 --> 01:53:15,599
Speaker 1: was a huge influence on me in terms of my music.

2125
01:53:15,640 --> 01:53:17,720
Speaker 1: She was a huge David David Bowie fan and a

2126
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:22,040
Speaker 1: huge Kate Bush fan and um, and she really opened

2127
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 1: me up to all kinds of music that you know,

2128
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: if you're a fifteen year old kid, you know, it's like,

2129
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:27,559
Speaker 1: I mean I still love some of those bands, but

2130
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, you listen to radio, it was Ario Speedwagon

2131
01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:32,320
Speaker 1: and things like that, and you know, and I got

2132
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:34,720
Speaker 1: all kinds of love for for you know, Journey and

2133
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 1: are Speedwagon all that but it really opened me up

2134
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:39,840
Speaker 1: to a wider variety of music. And I just I

2135
01:53:39,840 --> 01:53:42,360
Speaker 1: would just spend everything that I made on records, you know,

2136
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:45,000
Speaker 1: I just I would. I had a little basket on

2137
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 1: the back of my moped and I'd strapped my albums

2138
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:49,719
Speaker 1: in and I'd go home and I just you know, devoured.

2139
01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:51,680
Speaker 1: I've just always been a huge, you know, music fan.

2140
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:53,759
Speaker 1: And then you know, I went to work for Specs

2141
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:56,519
Speaker 1: when Carousel closed down, and I just I did record

2142
01:53:56,560 --> 01:53:59,920
Speaker 1: retail till I was twenty one. Okay, so you graduated

2143
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:03,320
Speaker 1: my school, you were going to college at that point. Yeah,

2144
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:06,000
Speaker 1: Well I went to the Community Polk Community College in

2145
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:09,920
Speaker 1: in winter Haven, but I when I was eighteen, I graduated,

2146
01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:13,559
Speaker 1: uh like basically less than a month after my seventeenth birthday.

2147
01:54:13,760 --> 01:54:17,120
Speaker 1: Um and um. So I went to community college. But

2148
01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:20,640
Speaker 1: I I didn't know what a music business was, but

2149
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:23,280
Speaker 1: I knew that it wasn't in Lakeland, Florida, and so

2150
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 1: I made the decision to move to Atlanta because whatever

2151
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 1: the music business was, well, I actually had a point

2152
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:32,720
Speaker 1: of access there. There was a guy named Doug Wiley

2153
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:35,840
Speaker 1: who was a salesperson for what was Important and that

2154
01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: that that then became read and like he would sell

2155
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:42,360
Speaker 1: like I would actually buy some and stuff. I was

2156
01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 1: fifteen years old and like buying you know records. Laurel

2157
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:50,040
Speaker 1: let me, you know, do that. And so he was like, uh,

2158
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 1: the cool guy that lived in the big city that

2159
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 1: like worked with all these you know, like I would

2160
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:57,640
Speaker 1: talk to about all these cool records and so, um,

2161
01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, I moved up to Atlanta. I got a

2162
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:04,080
Speaker 1: job working at Record Bar. Um I was living in

2163
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:06,920
Speaker 1: an apartment. I remember this. It was three d nine

2164
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:11,960
Speaker 1: dollars a month. And what year we am, uh nineteen

2165
01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:19,280
Speaker 1: eighty uh four or three three maybe, and uh, but

2166
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 1: I lived in an apartment. It was three dollars a month.

2167
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:24,600
Speaker 1: And I remember that because um, I was so poor

2168
01:55:25,120 --> 01:55:29,400
Speaker 1: that I uh, you know basically that it was a

2169
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:32,040
Speaker 1: two bedroom apartment. And the deal we made was the

2170
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:34,240
Speaker 1: two guys paid a hundred and fifty dollars and they

2171
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:36,880
Speaker 1: got the bedrooms and I paid ninety dollars and slept

2172
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:39,680
Speaker 1: on the couch. But but it gave me a way

2173
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,280
Speaker 1: to be around it all. And then you know, I

2174
01:55:42,320 --> 01:55:44,720
Speaker 1: was working at Record Bar and Lennox and that was

2175
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,360
Speaker 1: at the time when you know, there was Billboard report

2176
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:50,879
Speaker 1: you know that was you know, stores would report to Billboard,

2177
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:52,840
Speaker 1: and I was. I wound up, you know, work at

2178
01:55:52,840 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 1: the store and became the singles buyer. So I was

2179
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:57,760
Speaker 1: doing the singles Billboard charts, so that by access to

2180
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:02,880
Speaker 1: label people, as you could guess, was expanded greatly. And

2181
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:06,680
Speaker 1: so I just kind of, you know, politely harangued people

2182
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:09,600
Speaker 1: about like getting a job at a label, and uh,

2183
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:11,800
Speaker 1: I wound up starting at A and M Records as

2184
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:15,000
Speaker 1: as a seventy five dollar a week in turn. And

2185
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:16,480
Speaker 1: that was at the time when they were you know,

2186
01:56:16,480 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 1: it was like R C, A Arista, and A and M.

2187
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:22,520
Speaker 1: We're all together in a distribution group. And I loved

2188
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 1: my time at A and M. Karen Glauber, I worked

2189
01:56:25,240 --> 01:56:28,600
Speaker 1: under Karen Glauber, was one of Karen's kids, and it

2190
01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:32,040
Speaker 1: was a great start. But then, you know, uh, and

2191
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 1: everything at A and M. They were like the first

2192
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:36,520
Speaker 1: time I ever saw an Apple computer was at A

2193
01:56:36,560 --> 01:56:38,920
Speaker 1: and M. They always drank the best wine and all

2194
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:41,680
Speaker 1: this stuff. But uh, you know, I went down the

2195
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 1: hall and I'd see the airs to people and they

2196
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:48,600
Speaker 1: had like, you know dent you know, dented file cabinets,

2197
01:56:48,600 --> 01:56:50,200
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you know Linda Alter, if

2198
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:53,440
Speaker 1: you knew her, legendary promotion person. And they were like

2199
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 1: yelling at people and tearing their hair out, but they

2200
01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:00,240
Speaker 1: were breaking records like crazy. And I was like, I

2201
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:02,240
Speaker 1: want to go where it's kind of like. And so

2202
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:07,280
Speaker 1: they hired me, uh Candy uh Barry uh. Candice Berry,

2203
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:11,200
Speaker 1: who eventually went on to do sales at Interscope, you know,

2204
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 1: hired me as as as the basically the office assistant.

2205
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:16,600
Speaker 1: I was low man on the totem pole. I made

2206
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars of weeks therefore ten thousand, four hundred dollars,

2207
01:57:19,960 --> 01:57:22,680
Speaker 1: which for me was actually a pay raise. And uh

2208
01:57:22,720 --> 01:57:24,960
Speaker 1: and then I just I you know, like it was

2209
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,160
Speaker 1: right when the Whitney Houston record came out, and it

2210
01:57:27,200 --> 01:57:29,440
Speaker 1: was like Kenny g and Tony Braxton. So I was

2211
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 1: around all of that and and so you know, operating

2212
01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: in that environment, I really learned you know a lot

2213
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:38,480
Speaker 1: and and uh and even though I was like many

2214
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 1: many many levels below Clive Davis, um, you know, I was,

2215
01:57:42,360 --> 01:57:45,800
Speaker 1: I was involved enough to you know, one thing that

2216
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:48,880
Speaker 1: one thing about Clive that I really appreciated was his

2217
01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:51,680
Speaker 1: attention to detail. It was very important, Like he knew

2218
01:57:51,720 --> 01:57:54,640
Speaker 1: what was going on with the Deborah Cox record in Providence,

2219
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 1: and if the right things weren't happening, then he it

2220
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,200
Speaker 1: was just like go fix it, you know. And his

2221
01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:02,120
Speaker 1: level to detail and breaking artists, it was. It was

2222
01:58:02,160 --> 01:58:04,800
Speaker 1: a great lesson and something I've carried, you know, with me.

2223
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:07,040
Speaker 1: But that was sort of like how, you know, how

2224
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:09,960
Speaker 1: I became, you know, how I got my label gig

2225
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:12,680
Speaker 1: and then I you know, I spent the next fifteen years,

2226
01:58:13,400 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, twelve of the fifteen years at Arista, both

2227
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:18,080
Speaker 1: in the Pop in the in the Country division. You know,

2228
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 1: I had a couple other gigs along the way, but um,

2229
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 1: but the majority the way these were there, these were

2230
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:26,600
Speaker 1: promotion or sales, sales. It was always on the sales

2231
01:58:26,600 --> 01:58:29,520
Speaker 1: and retail into things and and so. And then I

2232
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:32,520
Speaker 1: worked for the Nashville division under Tim Dubos and Mike Dungan,

2233
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:35,640
Speaker 1: and you know that was a great object lesson too,

2234
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:39,680
Speaker 1: because you know, the level of performance was so high

2235
01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:41,440
Speaker 1: in our batting average was so high. But they were

2236
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:45,400
Speaker 1: very kind and loving people. You know, I won't name names,

2237
01:58:45,440 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 1: but you know when I worked for Arista and the

2238
01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:49,720
Speaker 1: Pop division, I was up and I got promoted up

2239
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:52,320
Speaker 1: to the New York office, and it was kind of

2240
01:58:52,320 --> 01:58:54,440
Speaker 1: a rough environment and there were times where I was like,

2241
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure that I'm you know, you know,

2242
01:58:58,280 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not sure that I want to

2243
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:03,080
Speaker 1: be or around. Uh. You know. It was just a

2244
01:59:03,200 --> 01:59:06,720
Speaker 1: very tough environment. And not that I'm not a tough person,

2245
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 1: but it was just, you know, I think there was

2246
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, there was I think the level of drug use,

2247
01:59:11,240 --> 01:59:12,720
Speaker 1: I think the level of you know, it's just it

2248
01:59:12,800 --> 01:59:14,440
Speaker 1: was just not it was it was for a small

2249
01:59:14,480 --> 01:59:17,200
Speaker 1: town guy from the South, it was it was. It

2250
01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:19,240
Speaker 1: was a tough adjustment. But you know, but like I

2251
01:59:19,280 --> 01:59:24,120
Speaker 1: went to work for Nashville and you know, the just

2252
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:28,080
Speaker 1: I mean we were breaking artists and Tim do Waugh

2253
01:59:28,160 --> 01:59:30,600
Speaker 1: was a loving person. I remember the first time that

2254
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:32,880
Speaker 1: I met him. It was at backstage before I started.

2255
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:36,400
Speaker 1: They had hired me but I hadn't started yet, and

2256
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 1: Tim said to me before I left, you know, because

2257
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 1: we were wrapping up, we're having a conversation and and

2258
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:44,440
Speaker 1: he said, well, Mr, welcome to the family. And then

2259
01:59:44,440 --> 01:59:46,000
Speaker 1: he poked me in the chest and he goes and

2260
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:48,880
Speaker 1: I want you to remember this is a family. And

2261
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 1: he was basically putting me on notice that like, you know,

2262
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:56,680
Speaker 1: you're expected to comport yourself with you know, with loving kindness,

2263
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: even even though he didn't use those terms. And that

2264
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,760
Speaker 1: was the way that they acted it. But but like

2265
02:00:01,800 --> 02:00:04,920
Speaker 1: it didn't, it didn't, they didn't let up. It wasn't

2266
02:00:04,960 --> 02:00:08,640
Speaker 1: like it. You know, love wasn't uh you know, it wasn't.

2267
02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: It wasn't a sign of weakness, you know. I mean

2268
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:14,160
Speaker 1: one of my favorite books of all time is Martin

2269
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:16,960
Speaker 1: Luther King's Strength to Love For and I recommended to

2270
02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:21,200
Speaker 1: everybody because you know, love is you know, it gave

2271
02:00:21,240 --> 02:00:24,920
Speaker 1: me the intellectual framework to know that, you know, love

2272
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:28,839
Speaker 1: is is actually strength. It's not it's not a weakness.

2273
02:00:29,240 --> 02:00:31,240
Speaker 1: So what is your last job and how does it

2274
02:00:31,280 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 1: in working for the labels? I worked at Giant Records. Uh.

2275
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 1: I was the head of sales with uh, you know,

2276
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 1: with uh you know, for for Giants Nashville division. Um,

2277
02:00:42,960 --> 02:00:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, I found my way out of Arista, you

2278
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:47,920
Speaker 1: know when they you know, when when they merged uh

2279
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:50,200
Speaker 1: with our ci A and they just didn't need duplicate

2280
02:00:50,240 --> 02:00:54,640
Speaker 1: sales staff. So you know, I respect Joe Gilanni, you know, immensely,

2281
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:56,400
Speaker 1: but it's just you know, it's a business decision. It

2282
02:00:56,440 --> 02:00:59,600
Speaker 1: was nothing, no disrespect or anything like that to me.

2283
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 1: And and but uh, but so I wound up running

2284
02:01:03,480 --> 02:01:05,800
Speaker 1: giants sales and marketing division. But it was right as

2285
02:01:05,920 --> 02:01:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, I set my bags down, and it

2286
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:10,400
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, you know, I'm hearing rumors

2287
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:12,200
Speaker 1: that Irving is going to sell the company, and so

2288
02:01:12,240 --> 02:01:14,520
Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go again. And

2289
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:17,920
Speaker 1: so um so when I left there, I was just like,

2290
02:01:17,960 --> 02:01:20,280
Speaker 1: do I want to like hop back on this treadmill again?

2291
02:01:20,320 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 1: It seemed like the trend was really going towards people

2292
02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:27,000
Speaker 1: getting laid off and downsizing because we were starting the

2293
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:29,720
Speaker 1: sort of inevitable decline at you know, with the post

2294
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:32,520
Speaker 1: c D you know boom we were, you know, revenues

2295
02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 1: were dropping and people were seeking efficiencies. And I thought

2296
02:01:37,320 --> 02:01:39,880
Speaker 1: very hard about what I wanted to do and how

2297
02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:42,120
Speaker 1: I was going to respond to that. And I thought, well,

2298
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:44,600
Speaker 1: if I go to some small label that's only going

2299
02:01:44,640 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 1: to have like one or two artists and they're paying

2300
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:51,080
Speaker 1: me seventy five thousand dollars a year, um, like what

2301
02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:53,320
Speaker 1: am I gonna? I mean, like, I do everything that

2302
02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:54,840
Speaker 1: I could think of for that with those one or

2303
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:57,280
Speaker 1: two artists, but I'd run out of things pretty quick.

2304
02:01:57,320 --> 02:01:59,720
Speaker 1: And and it's not and my even my presence, there

2305
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 1: is an inefficiency that will help, uh make the country,

2306
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:06,360
Speaker 1: the company less viable. So rather than you know, so

2307
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:10,240
Speaker 1: I decided and I started this company with a partner,

2308
02:02:10,240 --> 02:02:12,200
Speaker 1: deb Markland, who I worked with at Ariston, And the

2309
02:02:12,240 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 1: general idea was, rather than get somebody to you know,

2310
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:19,360
Speaker 1: pay me or us, uh, you know, seventy five dollars,

2311
02:02:19,400 --> 02:02:22,400
Speaker 1: let's get ten people to hire us for seventy. That

2312
02:02:22,440 --> 02:02:24,160
Speaker 1: way we'll be busy all the time. It will be

2313
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 1: safer for us because one or two things go away,

2314
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:30,120
Speaker 1: we still got income. But also the fact that we're

2315
02:02:30,160 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 1: doing this makes all of those entities more viable. And

2316
02:02:33,640 --> 02:02:35,560
Speaker 1: and you know, so that's part of my sort of

2317
02:02:35,600 --> 02:02:39,480
Speaker 1: business orientation, thinking about you know, sort of like you know,

2318
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 1: how can things be done in a sustainable fashion? And

2319
02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:45,640
Speaker 1: so you know, that's how we started. And we started

2320
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:49,520
Speaker 1: just as a straight consultancy. But then you know, Ken Antonelli,

2321
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,360
Speaker 1: who has been so important in my professional life during

2322
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: in so many ways. But he came to me and

2323
02:02:55,640 --> 02:02:57,160
Speaker 1: was like, man, we love the work you do. You

2324
02:02:57,240 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 1: prepare our sales reps, to go in and they know

2325
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:01,080
Speaker 1: what they're talking king about. So we want you to

2326
02:03:01,080 --> 02:03:03,720
Speaker 1: bring everything to us, you know, we want you to

2327
02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:05,720
Speaker 1: do all your work through us. And it was like, well,

2328
02:03:06,480 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 1: and this was a year before Spotify, I mean before

2329
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:11,920
Speaker 1: iTunes started, So if you didn't have distribution, you were

2330
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:14,680
Speaker 1: you know, you were screwed. And so I I but

2331
02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:18,200
Speaker 1: I understood stood that, like access to distribution was an

2332
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:22,360
Speaker 1: existential issue, and so what I said to him was like, Okay,

2333
02:03:22,360 --> 02:03:25,840
Speaker 1: well let's do like a kind of an aggregator thing.

2334
02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:28,760
Speaker 1: You signed me. I'll take the financial I'll take the

2335
02:03:28,840 --> 02:03:32,800
Speaker 1: risk of the responsibility, but like, let me if if

2336
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:37,360
Speaker 1: I can bestow distribution on a client, then that gives

2337
02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:41,560
Speaker 1: me more um importance to them. And so so that's

2338
02:03:41,560 --> 02:03:44,840
Speaker 1: the way we set everything up. And that's what I've

2339
02:03:44,840 --> 02:03:47,320
Speaker 1: been doing for the last twenty years. Kenny was running

2340
02:03:47,320 --> 02:03:52,000
Speaker 1: red which morphed into the orchard. That's how that relationship. Yes, okay,

2341
02:03:52,040 --> 02:03:56,080
Speaker 1: are you married, Yes, have any children? No? You do

2342
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:58,840
Speaker 1: not have a children. No children. I've never been able

2343
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:01,840
Speaker 1: to convince anybody how many times you've been married three.

2344
02:04:02,240 --> 02:04:06,600
Speaker 1: Nobody likes a quitter. When you started this business twenty

2345
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:08,920
Speaker 1: years ago, were you married to the president. Why for

2346
02:04:09,080 --> 02:04:11,800
Speaker 1: that was before this No, actually, well that's an interesting story.

2347
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:15,800
Speaker 1: When I started this business. Um. Uh actually, I'm glad

2348
02:04:15,840 --> 02:04:17,840
Speaker 1: you're bringing this up because it gives me an opportunity

2349
02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:22,160
Speaker 1: to talk about Nancy Quinn, who is the number two

2350
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:26,520
Speaker 1: person in our company. Um, Nancy, Um, we were married

2351
02:04:26,520 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 1: at the time. Shortly after the company started, we became

2352
02:04:31,080 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: not married and um, and you know, we took a

2353
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,160
Speaker 1: couple of years to kind of heal up. But you know,

2354
02:04:36,200 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 1: I've met Nancy through worked. I mean she worked for

2355
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:42,960
Speaker 1: BMG Distribution. I worked for Arista and we were like

2356
02:04:43,160 --> 02:04:48,080
Speaker 1: colleagues and friends before we got romantically involved. And you know,

2357
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:50,480
Speaker 1: then when you know, and after a little bit of

2358
02:04:50,520 --> 02:04:53,280
Speaker 1: time to heal up, all that I needed as the

2359
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:55,840
Speaker 1: company was growing, um, you know, and she had found

2360
02:04:55,880 --> 02:04:58,760
Speaker 1: her way out of the company or out of the

2361
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:01,800
Speaker 1: of the position and that she was in before. I mean,

2362
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,280
Speaker 1: she's one of the most She's one of the hardest working,

2363
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:09,320
Speaker 1: just down to earth, like solid record people, you know.

2364
02:05:09,440 --> 02:05:11,280
Speaker 1: You know. So I was like, you know, it's like, well, life,

2365
02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:13,360
Speaker 1: I hope I'm making a healthy decision here, but like

2366
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:15,560
Speaker 1: she's one of the best people that I know, and

2367
02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:20,800
Speaker 1: so we started working together again. And um and she

2368
02:05:21,040 --> 02:05:24,320
Speaker 1: is she's she's she's the number two person in this company.

2369
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:28,840
Speaker 1: And um and she's she's the she's the one that

2370
02:05:28,960 --> 02:05:33,960
Speaker 1: really helps promote structure and organization. I mean, I'm you know,

2371
02:05:34,000 --> 02:05:38,440
Speaker 1: I'm a good business person. I am actually reasonably organized.

2372
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:42,160
Speaker 1: But I'm also my fascination is with you know, artists

2373
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:45,080
Speaker 1: and narrative and building relationships and talking about this. Nancy

2374
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:47,280
Speaker 1: is the one that makes sure that all the contracts

2375
02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:50,080
Speaker 1: get signed. You know, She's the one that helps me

2376
02:05:50,200 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 1: think through the structure of the company. And and and

2377
02:05:53,400 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 1: it's just you know, so um so it's yeah, so

2378
02:05:57,720 --> 02:06:01,760
Speaker 1: Nancy was, um, you know, she was, you know, my

2379
02:06:01,760 --> 02:06:05,000
Speaker 1: my second wife. But also she's um, you know, still

2380
02:06:05,000 --> 02:06:07,920
Speaker 1: in my life and in an integral part of everything

2381
02:06:07,960 --> 02:06:10,520
Speaker 1: we do at thirty Tigers. That begs the question the

2382
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:15,120
Speaker 1: third wife. Um, well, I did an album. Uh uh

2383
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, I did an album in two thousand four

2384
02:06:20,680 --> 02:06:25,080
Speaker 1: along with uh two uh you know partners in crime,

2385
02:06:25,160 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: Steve Fishel and Tamra Saviano. Um. I had this idea

2386
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 1: about doing an album of Stephen Foster's music, or doing

2387
02:06:33,560 --> 02:06:35,440
Speaker 1: an album of Stephen Foster's music. For those of you

2388
02:06:35,480 --> 02:06:38,880
Speaker 1: who don't know Stephen Foster's you know, I think one

2389
02:06:38,880 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 1: of the five most important people in in American musical history.

2390
02:06:41,840 --> 02:06:44,960
Speaker 1: He was the first person to be a famous songwriter.

2391
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:51,640
Speaker 1: And he um he did um he wrote, Oh Susannah

2392
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:54,840
Speaker 1: Camptown Races, a dream of Genie with the light brown hair,

2393
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:57,480
Speaker 1: just like a multitude of songs that are in the

2394
02:06:57,520 --> 02:07:00,400
Speaker 1: in the in the American Canon of song songs. But

2395
02:07:01,040 --> 02:07:06,280
Speaker 1: he um. He became famous his early you know hits

2396
02:07:06,280 --> 02:07:10,600
Speaker 1: Oh Susannah and um uh. And I'm getting around to

2397
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:14,680
Speaker 1: Judith in a second. But I promised, but the the

2398
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:17,360
Speaker 1: but I was at the time I was attending when

2399
02:07:17,360 --> 02:07:19,600
Speaker 1: I went back to school to do the pre law thing,

2400
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:23,040
Speaker 1: I was attended a historically black university. So I was

2401
02:07:23,080 --> 02:07:26,400
Speaker 1: in Africana studies class, and I was thinking about, you know,

2402
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:29,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about white appropriation of black culture. And I

2403
02:07:29,360 --> 02:07:31,360
Speaker 1: grew up in Florida where you know our state song

2404
02:07:31,440 --> 02:07:34,640
Speaker 1: with Swansee River and we I grew up singing out

2405
02:07:34,640 --> 02:07:37,040
Speaker 1: of a Stephen Foster songbook when I was in pre

2406
02:07:37,160 --> 02:07:40,440
Speaker 1: K and all that, and so um, he kind of

2407
02:07:40,480 --> 02:07:44,760
Speaker 1: had an outsized um, you know place in my musical

2408
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,920
Speaker 1: uh consciousness but he um. But it was interesting because

2409
02:07:48,960 --> 02:07:52,000
Speaker 1: he his first hit songs were basically songs that were

2410
02:07:52,240 --> 02:07:55,640
Speaker 1: written for the minstrel stage. Oh Susanna and Count Camptown Residute,

2411
02:07:55,800 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 1: his first two famous songs, which basically minstrel ry was

2412
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:04,160
Speaker 1: was essentially white whites appropriating black culture, you know then,

2413
02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:06,280
Speaker 1: and so I got the idea of and and also

2414
02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:10,800
Speaker 1: Stephen Foster sort of lost um he became he went

2415
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:14,120
Speaker 1: got consigned to the back burner of public consciousness in

2416
02:08:14,200 --> 02:08:17,480
Speaker 1: the seventies with the advent of a more um uh

2417
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, when when we were more became more conscious

2418
02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:23,440
Speaker 1: about race issues. And you know, he would use the

2419
02:08:23,560 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 1: N word and songs and he would use the word

2420
02:08:25,640 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 1: Darkian songs. And so it occurred to me that his

2421
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:33,320
Speaker 1: whole arc of of you know, rising into the public

2422
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:37,000
Speaker 1: consciousness and then fading from it was all bracketed by race.

2423
02:08:37,280 --> 02:08:39,840
Speaker 1: And I just felt compelled to tell that story. And

2424
02:08:39,840 --> 02:08:41,480
Speaker 1: I'd never I mean, all I did was sell, you know,

2425
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:43,400
Speaker 1: like I said, we sell records to Walmart. I've never

2426
02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:47,320
Speaker 1: tried to do anything like this before. But I wanted

2427
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:49,680
Speaker 1: to tell that story. And and so I, you know,

2428
02:08:49,720 --> 02:08:51,760
Speaker 1: with the help of Like I said, Stephen Tamer, we

2429
02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:55,240
Speaker 1: you know, we told that story. And then Tamer was

2430
02:08:55,280 --> 02:08:59,640
Speaker 1: friends with with with Judith and and uh and suggested

2431
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:02,280
Speaker 1: her as an artist on the record. So we met

2432
02:09:02,320 --> 02:09:07,120
Speaker 1: through she was a she's a recovering singer songwriter. Uh

2433
02:09:07,120 --> 02:09:10,720
Speaker 1: and uh so she she was on on that record

2434
02:09:10,720 --> 02:09:15,720
Speaker 1: and we met through that. How many employees at thirty Tigers. Uh,

2435
02:09:16,920 --> 02:09:22,160
Speaker 1: I own the majority of it, but we have um

2436
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:25,400
Speaker 1: um I own about eighty percent of it, and then

2437
02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:32,680
Speaker 1: the other is split between present and former employees and

2438
02:09:32,880 --> 02:09:38,160
Speaker 1: uh um and uh. Well and also you know the

2439
02:09:38,880 --> 02:09:40,480
Speaker 1: you know the I don't know if you ever knew

2440
02:09:40,520 --> 02:09:43,480
Speaker 1: Bob Goldstone did you ever know him? Okay, he was

2441
02:09:43,520 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 1: a legendary sales guy and everything he was. We lost

2442
02:09:47,240 --> 02:09:51,760
Speaker 1: him unfortunately in a in a bicycling accident in um

2443
02:09:51,760 --> 02:09:54,440
Speaker 1: and his his widow owns a you know his you

2444
02:09:54,440 --> 02:09:57,440
Speaker 1: know his his portion of it and uh and uh

2445
02:09:57,560 --> 02:09:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, with the success of the company, one of

2446
02:09:59,120 --> 02:10:01,920
Speaker 1: my favorite things is is knowing that his work and

2447
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:06,160
Speaker 1: his contribution sustains or does the sustain I mean contributes

2448
02:10:06,200 --> 02:10:09,400
Speaker 1: to sustaining his family, and that makes me feel fantastic.

2449
02:10:09,440 --> 02:10:12,480
Speaker 1: He was a lovely guy, Why thirty tigers? Where's the

2450
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:18,960
Speaker 1: name come from? Well? I back in so we used

2451
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:22,560
Speaker 1: to be called Emergent Music Marketing. Um, I didn't love

2452
02:10:22,600 --> 02:10:24,200
Speaker 1: the name, but it was it was our name. And

2453
02:10:24,920 --> 02:10:26,640
Speaker 1: we got a cease and desist order. There used to

2454
02:10:26,680 --> 02:10:30,000
Speaker 1: be a label called Emergent with an Eye and uh.

2455
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:32,360
Speaker 1: They sent us a cease and desist letter. As we

2456
02:10:32,440 --> 02:10:35,480
Speaker 1: became more label like and we were distributing and things

2457
02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:38,120
Speaker 1: like that, and my attorney called me and said, well,

2458
02:10:38,160 --> 02:10:40,040
Speaker 1: we got this thing, and so you have two choices.

2459
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:43,240
Speaker 1: Either we can you can pay me a lot of

2460
02:10:43,280 --> 02:10:45,120
Speaker 1: money to fight this and we'll lose, or you can

2461
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:49,120
Speaker 1: give up now. And so I was like give up now. Uh.

2462
02:10:49,160 --> 02:10:51,040
Speaker 1: And then and and so we were trying to come

2463
02:10:51,080 --> 02:10:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, we had to come up with another, another

2464
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:54,560
Speaker 1: name and do it pretty quickly. And at the time,

2465
02:10:55,200 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 1: now this was back when Nashville was solely this is

2466
02:10:57,440 --> 02:10:59,760
Speaker 1: before the Black Keys got here and Jack White got here.

2467
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:02,720
Speaker 1: So we were strictly like a a country in Christian

2468
02:11:02,800 --> 02:11:05,280
Speaker 1: music town and that was about it. So there's anything

2469
02:11:05,320 --> 02:11:07,600
Speaker 1: off the beaten path, I'd get the call. And so

2470
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:10,360
Speaker 1: an attorney called me and wanted there was an opera

2471
02:11:10,360 --> 02:11:12,280
Speaker 1: singer that she was working with that needed a business

2472
02:11:12,320 --> 02:11:16,880
Speaker 1: plan written for a Doctor Seuss opera, and uh, so

2473
02:11:16,920 --> 02:11:18,960
Speaker 1: I was all immersed at the at the very moment

2474
02:11:19,040 --> 02:11:23,040
Speaker 1: in the world of Dr Seuss, and he uh had

2475
02:11:23,040 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 1: a book called I Can Lick thirty Tigers Today, and

2476
02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:28,880
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't know, it just popped into my head,

2477
02:11:29,320 --> 02:11:31,520
Speaker 1: like and I while checking with my trademark attorney to

2478
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:32,840
Speaker 1: make sure I wasn't going to get sued by the

2479
02:11:32,840 --> 02:11:35,919
Speaker 1: Sieus estate, but you know, I thought, being thirty tigers,

2480
02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:39,680
Speaker 1: that sounds like mysterious and powerful and uh and there

2481
02:11:39,720 --> 02:11:41,840
Speaker 1: was some dissension in some of the older people in

2482
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:43,560
Speaker 1: the company were like, I don't know, that feels kind

2483
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:45,240
Speaker 1: of weird. But at the time, we were working right

2484
02:11:45,280 --> 02:11:48,640
Speaker 1: above Grimes, and I went downtown or downstairs and asked

2485
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:50,280
Speaker 1: all the young people that worked at Grimes, and I

2486
02:11:50,320 --> 02:11:51,400
Speaker 1: was like, what do you think of that name? And

2487
02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:53,320
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, we love it. And I was like, okay,

2488
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:56,480
Speaker 1: funk it, We're going with that. So how we became

2489
02:11:56,520 --> 02:11:59,240
Speaker 1: thirty Tigers? You know? So I and I still love

2490
02:11:59,280 --> 02:12:02,200
Speaker 1: the name, so okay, just a couple more questions. How

2491
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:06,640
Speaker 1: many acts on thirty Tigers roster? At this point hard

2492
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:10,800
Speaker 1: to say. Um, you know, most artists, I mean we

2493
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:14,840
Speaker 1: we put out about fifty records a year, assuming that

2494
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:18,000
Speaker 1: there's a uh you know, most artists are working on

2495
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:21,760
Speaker 1: a two year album cycle. Um, you know, I would

2496
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:24,920
Speaker 1: say that the number is probably in and around a hundred.

2497
02:12:25,000 --> 02:12:28,880
Speaker 1: But again, like you know, artists aren't. It's kind of

2498
02:12:28,920 --> 02:12:30,640
Speaker 1: like a record by record type of thing. I mean,

2499
02:12:30,640 --> 02:12:33,360
Speaker 1: if if you know they're they're not locked into deal.

2500
02:12:33,480 --> 02:12:36,120
Speaker 1: So if somebody is gonna you know, feels like something

2501
02:12:36,120 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 1: else is better, we may or may you know, we

2502
02:12:37,640 --> 02:12:39,560
Speaker 1: may or may not know whether or not they're gonna

2503
02:12:39,720 --> 02:12:42,000
Speaker 1: do it until they do it. But um, I would

2504
02:12:42,040 --> 02:12:45,360
Speaker 1: say my best guest is probably around a hundred. Okay,

2505
02:12:45,440 --> 02:12:49,840
Speaker 1: final question. Jason Isabel put out an album at the

2506
02:12:49,920 --> 02:12:53,680
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic when everybody was locked up at home.

2507
02:12:54,240 --> 02:12:57,080
Speaker 1: There was a lot of ink on it, you know,

2508
02:12:57,360 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: in terms of making the record. Convention wisdom is that

2509
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:05,760
Speaker 1: it underperformed commercially and people said it wasn't a good

2510
02:13:05,800 --> 02:13:09,760
Speaker 1: time because he couldn't go out and promote it. Was

2511
02:13:09,880 --> 02:13:13,760
Speaker 1: that the case that really you need the road component

2512
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:15,840
Speaker 1: and all those other things to have a d percent

2513
02:13:15,960 --> 02:13:19,480
Speaker 1: success or is that a vision that's incorrect now, I mean,

2514
02:13:19,880 --> 02:13:23,200
Speaker 1: it sure helps, and he's such a compelling you know,

2515
02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:26,760
Speaker 1: live act UM. But I also think Jason under you know,

2516
02:13:26,840 --> 02:13:29,720
Speaker 1: he understood that. I mean I remember this being a

2517
02:13:29,800 --> 02:13:35,760
Speaker 1: point of conversation at the time. He understood that, you know,

2518
02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:38,800
Speaker 1: kind of what he was up against. UM. But he's

2519
02:13:38,840 --> 02:13:42,080
Speaker 1: done well enough in his career that the motivations were

2520
02:13:42,200 --> 02:13:47,000
Speaker 1: for him were to UM have music that would be

2521
02:13:47,480 --> 02:13:51,040
Speaker 1: uh um sort of a psychic sav to his fans.

2522
02:13:51,680 --> 02:13:54,400
Speaker 1: And also, UM, we did a lot of work in

2523
02:13:54,480 --> 02:13:58,280
Speaker 1: terms of trying to um do things with indie retail.

2524
02:13:58,320 --> 02:14:00,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if you remember, we released that out a

2525
02:14:00,360 --> 02:14:03,280
Speaker 1: week early to indie retail, and we talked to it

2526
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:07,000
Speaker 1: to our DSP partners and explained, you know, the situations

2527
02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:09,080
Speaker 1: is no disrespect to you guys, but you know this

2528
02:14:09,160 --> 02:14:11,600
Speaker 1: is important to you know, Jason to be able to

2529
02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:13,680
Speaker 1: do this, and we we didn't hear. I mean, they

2530
02:14:13,760 --> 02:14:17,960
Speaker 1: we had nothing but their support and understanding. And so UM,

2531
02:14:18,000 --> 02:14:21,720
Speaker 1: I don't think that you know the motivations for Jason

2532
02:14:22,240 --> 02:14:25,440
Speaker 1: at that point. I mean, sure, I mean, everybody wants

2533
02:14:25,440 --> 02:14:27,400
Speaker 1: their record to do as well as they possibly can.

2534
02:14:27,480 --> 02:14:30,720
Speaker 1: But I think he he and his incredibly great manager,

2535
02:14:30,760 --> 02:14:34,040
Speaker 1: Tracy Thomas, understood the that the you know, that they

2536
02:14:34,040 --> 02:14:37,760
Speaker 1: were wandering into some you know, difficulties when it came

2537
02:14:37,800 --> 02:14:41,000
Speaker 1: to know marketing and the ultimate success of the record,

2538
02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:44,400
Speaker 1: but chose to move forward anyways because Jason's you know,

2539
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:47,160
Speaker 1: he's doing great. He's a very successful artist, and so

2540
02:14:47,240 --> 02:14:49,880
Speaker 1: he could make that choice. Okay, David, I think we've

2541
02:14:49,880 --> 02:14:52,480
Speaker 1: come to the end of the feeling we've known. You're

2542
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:56,440
Speaker 1: quite the rack and tour and very informative and insightful

2543
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:58,520
Speaker 1: in terms of the business. I want to thank you

2544
02:14:58,600 --> 02:15:00,680
Speaker 1: so much for doing this. Well, I want to thank

2545
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:04,320
Speaker 1: you right back because I've enjoyed this thoroughly and um

2546
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:06,640
Speaker 1: and again you this isn't the first time that you know,

2547
02:15:06,680 --> 02:15:10,120
Speaker 1: when I've expressed myself that you've amplified, you know, my

2548
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:13,000
Speaker 1: views to the world. And I really appreciate it. And

2549
02:15:13,000 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 1: and also I think that again, like I really, um,

2550
02:15:16,520 --> 02:15:18,720
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like you're a conduit for I

2551
02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:22,040
Speaker 1: learned a lot from listening, especially the podcasts. I mean,

2552
02:15:22,080 --> 02:15:26,080
Speaker 1: I love your newsletter, but the podcasts and and uh,

2553
02:15:26,120 --> 02:15:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, hearing hearing what some of the you know,

2554
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 1: the titans of industry or the you know, artists that

2555
02:15:30,760 --> 02:15:33,360
Speaker 1: you know that participate, you know their viewpoints. I mean,

2556
02:15:33,400 --> 02:15:36,160
Speaker 1: I just learned so much. So I I hope, uh

2557
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:39,840
Speaker 1: that I'm paying that forward to some people and if

2558
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: they can you know, um, you know, learn anything from

2559
02:15:43,080 --> 02:15:45,560
Speaker 1: my experience, then that it would make me feel great.

2560
02:15:45,600 --> 02:15:47,760
Speaker 1: But I've I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, so thank you

2561
02:15:47,800 --> 02:15:50,000
Speaker 1: so much for having me. Well, you definitely paid it

2562
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:52,560
Speaker 1: for There's a lot of stuff here that even people

2563
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 1: deep in the business doesn't know, so I want to

2564
02:15:55,600 --> 02:15:59,360
Speaker 1: thank you again. Until next time. This is bald left

2565
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:05,720
Speaker 1: sense Bo