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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Halloween is my favorite holiday. I love carving pumpkins

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Speaker 1: and seeing my neighbors goofy decorations. I love seeing people

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Speaker 1: in costumes and casually running into superheroes and ferries out

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Speaker 1: on the street. I love cider donuts and Halloween candy

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Speaker 1: and pumpkin spice anything, and I love that feeling of

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Speaker 1: cozy nostalgia. But oddly enough, there is one big thing

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Speaker 1: I don't get about spooky season, the spooky part. You see,

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Speaker 1: I'm a complete scaredy cat. I can't handle haunted houses

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Speaker 1: or horror films, and as a professor who studies the

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Speaker 1: science of happiness, I struggle to wrap my mind around

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Speaker 1: why people might enjoy this stuff. But as a Halloween fan,

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Speaker 1: I also spend a lot of time wondering am I

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Speaker 1: missing out? Could I learn to enjoy the spooky stuff?

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Speaker 1: Could leaning in to fear make me happier? So this

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Speaker 1: Halloween I decided to ask the expert.

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Speaker 2: I'm Coulton Scribner. I'm a psychologist at Arizona State University,

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Speaker 2: and I study the psychology of why we're drawn to

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Speaker 2: things that sometimes scare us or disgust us.

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Speaker 1: Coulton is the author of a new book, Morbidly Curious,

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Speaker 1: a scientist explains why we can't look away. Coulton is

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Speaker 1: a nerdy, rational academic like me. He doesn't believe in ghosts,

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Speaker 1: but he has fully embraced his spooky side.

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Speaker 2: I love going on ghost hunts. I live in a

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Speaker 2: famously haunted little Victorian town. Right, it's I got one

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Speaker 2: of the world's most haunted hotels just down the street

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Speaker 2: from me. But it's a little weird that humans scare

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Speaker 2: themselves for fun, right, I mean, the traditional thinking on

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Speaker 2: fear is that fear evolved to help animals avoid danger.

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Speaker 2: And so when you see something dangerous or think something

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Speaker 2: dangerous is around, it should activate the emotion of fear

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Speaker 2: and all the physiological side effects of that and the

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Speaker 2: mental psychological side effects of that, and typically the response

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Speaker 2: is to avoid whatever the thing is. In humans and

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Speaker 2: sometimes in other animals, but especially in humans, we sometimes

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Speaker 2: seek out feelings of fear with the caveat that we're

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Speaker 2: typically safe when we do that.

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Speaker 1: So what is morbid curiosity? Give me a definition.

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Speaker 2: Well, the way that I've defined it is it's an

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Speaker 2: interest in things that are threatening or potentially dangerous. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: we're interested in actual threats, you know, if you see

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Speaker 2: something happening out in the world and it's dangerous or

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Speaker 2: sometimes we're interested in fictional threats, even things that we're

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Speaker 2: not sure could exist, like ghosts or aliens or monsters.

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Speaker 1: And so your journey into morbid curiosity started relatively early

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Speaker 1: on with the genre that I found a little bit unexpected.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what that was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking back, you know, when I started

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Speaker 2: doing researching this and writing about it, I started thinking

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Speaker 2: about my own experiences, obviously with things that scared me,

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Speaker 2: but that I found kind of intriguing. It was actually

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Speaker 2: a video game. It was a Resident Evil video game

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Speaker 2: on PlayStation, I think, one that you know, probably I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have been playing, and don't know where I got

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Speaker 2: it from or why I had it, but I do

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Speaker 2: remember that was a really scary game, especially at the

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Speaker 2: time and especially for someone who was five or six.

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Speaker 2: For those that don't know, Resident Evil is a zombie game.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of one of the original survival zombie

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Speaker 2: horror games. So you're thrust into this world where there's

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Speaker 2: a zombie apocalypse and you kind of have to figure

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Speaker 2: out some puzzles. But as you move through the world,

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Speaker 2: there are zombies all around, and that's that's really common

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Speaker 2: to us now, but for video games that was fairly

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Speaker 2: new back in the nineties and had a fixed point

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Speaker 2: of view, and so you couldn't you physically couldn't turn

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Speaker 2: around and look at things like you wanted to look

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Speaker 2: at them. So actually your perception was limited too, which

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Speaker 2: is really frightening and really unnerving, especially when you can

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Speaker 2: hear these zombies kind of groaning and so you know

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Speaker 2: they're nearby, but you can't actually turn your character and look.

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Speaker 1: And just to be clear, you were five years old

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Speaker 1: when you were playing this.

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Speaker 2: I was, yeah, five or six, probably I must have

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Speaker 2: five or six, yeah, And I remember playing the game

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Speaker 2: and I remember, you know, thinking, oh my gosh, this

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Speaker 2: is so scary. But what I liked about it is

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Speaker 2: that there were ways to kind of get away from

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Speaker 2: the fear for a minute and kind of collect myself.

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Speaker 2: You could pause the game. Now, pausing the game just

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Speaker 2: kind of froze it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really like protect you, but it has let

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Speaker 2: you literally pause for a second and kind of strategize

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Speaker 2: or think about what can I do? Right. There were

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Speaker 2: these safe rooms throughout the house where you could go

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Speaker 2: to save your game. But those were also places where

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Speaker 2: you could go and you could kind of strategize and

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Speaker 2: think about what you're going to do and plan and

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Speaker 2: sort of collect yourself and sort of go on and

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Speaker 2: face your fears. And when I started writing about morbid

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Speaker 2: curiosity and I started hearing about horror fans telling me

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Speaker 2: that they use horror to kind of face their fears,

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Speaker 2: I did start thinking about that experience, and I thought,

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Speaker 2: you know, one byproduct of that might have been that

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Speaker 2: I was kind of learning to overcome scary situations and

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Speaker 2: kind of learning how to control feelings of anxiety and

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Speaker 2: fear in a very safe setting, which I think is

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Speaker 2: what in the modern world morbid curiosity is really good for.

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Speaker 1: Your arguments is that this interest in violence, all things

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Speaker 1: morbid and creepy, it might be a really fundamental part

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Speaker 1: of our human nature, something that stems from really basic biases.

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Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about this idea of a

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Speaker 1: negativity bias and how that is interestingly and importantly universal.

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Speaker 1: What's a negativity bias and how does it play into

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Speaker 1: more bid curiosity.

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Speaker 2: When I started studying more big curiosity, negativity bias literature

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Speaker 2: is kind of the first thing I really suck my

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Speaker 2: teeth into. Because that was what psychologists were talking about.

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Speaker 2: They were talking about negativity bias, and there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of research on it, and so I had a

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff that I could read through to kind

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Speaker 2: of get a sense of what had been done, what

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Speaker 2: people had been thinking about. So negativity bias sounds like

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Speaker 2: it's the fact that things that are negative in our

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Speaker 2: lives capture our attention and our memory more powerfully than

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Speaker 2: things that are positive or neutral. My issue with the

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Speaker 2: framing of negativity bias is that it's a little unclear

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Speaker 2: to me what it means for something to be negative.

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Speaker 2: I give the example of my book. If I book

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Speaker 2: a room at a haunted hotel, I expect to be

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Speaker 2: like bothered by ghost in my room, Right, I expect

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Speaker 2: that to happen. I want that to happen. So it's

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Speaker 2: not really a negative event from my point of view,

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Speaker 2: But it might be from someone who booked that hotel

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Speaker 2: not knowing it was haunted. And there's been some work

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Speaker 2: suggesting that humans are driven by negative events. Their attention

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Speaker 2: is but it's really threatening events that are what capture

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Speaker 2: attention even more powerfully, right, And so I think what's

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Speaker 2: at the core of negativity bias is a potential danger,

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Speaker 2: potential threat in many cases. So I think threat bias

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Speaker 2: is kind of at the center of morbid curiosity, which

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Speaker 2: is maybe part of a broader negativity bias that humans have.

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Speaker 1: You told this one study in the book that I

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Speaker 1: loved about people thinking about and remembering consumer products in

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Speaker 1: their threat bias. Maybe explain that study here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that was a past couple of Yege study.

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Speaker 2: He does some of the best work on threat bias.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he laid a lot of the foundation for

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Speaker 2: this fact that humans seem to be driven by threats.

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Speaker 2: Their attention is driven by threats. So he in one

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Speaker 2: of his studies gave people I think it was like shampoo,

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Speaker 2: and it was descriptions of like side effects of this shampoo.

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Speaker 2: And some of them were positive, it'll make your hair luscious,

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Speaker 2: it'll make your hair thick. Some of them were sort

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Speaker 2: of neutral, like it contains this product, or it lathers

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Speaker 2: up in this way. And some of them were negative,

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Speaker 2: like it doesn't always work or may not work for

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Speaker 2: your hair, and some of them were threatening, like it

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Speaker 2: will make your hair fall out. He did this kind

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Speaker 2: of chain study almost like the game Telephone a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but like where you tell people, here are these eight

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Speaker 2: facts about this shampoo, some positive, some neutral, some negative,

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Speaker 2: some threatening. Pick seven of those eight and tell your

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Speaker 2: friend about it, and then you do the next person

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Speaker 2: in line. Okay, here's seven facts. Pick six of those.

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Speaker 2: Tell your friend about those until you get down to

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Speaker 2: one where you can only tell your friend about one

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Speaker 2: of those things. And what he found was that the

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Speaker 2: type of information that made it to the end of

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Speaker 2: that chain, that like the one that got passed on

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Speaker 2: the most often, were the threatening types of information. So

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Speaker 2: this shampoo can burn your scalp or make your hair

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Speaker 2: fall out. And that kind of makes sense. Like if

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tell well, l worry about this new

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Speaker 2: shampoo that I've got, you know, if I have all

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Speaker 2: this information, am I going to say it lathers this way?

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Speaker 2: Or am I going to let her know? Hey, and

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Speaker 2: some people that like made their hair fall out. That's

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Speaker 2: the kind of information I really want you to know,

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Speaker 2: because I don't want you to come back to me

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Speaker 2: later and say, hey, you recommended the shampoo to me

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Speaker 2: and it bade my hair fall out.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like it's not just in terms of

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Speaker 1: communication that this makes sense. Our curiosity about all things

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Speaker 1: threatening and our attention towards things threatening seems to make

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Speaker 1: a lot of evolutionary sense. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean so I was trained as a biologist for

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Speaker 2: most of my career, and so when I started thinking

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Speaker 2: about morbid curiosity, I first looked to animals and I said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: is there anything in the animal kingdom that looks kind

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Speaker 2: of like this? Is there anything that would have been

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Speaker 2: maybe conserved across species? And one of the things I

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Speaker 2: came across was predator inspection. It's pretty much exactly what

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Speaker 2: it sounds like. It's when an animal, a prey animal,

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Speaker 2: inspects or pays attention to a potential predator. So if

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Speaker 2: I were to ask you what would a zebra do

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Speaker 2: if it saw a line on the savannah, most people,

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Speaker 2: reasonably so would say, well, it would run away because

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Speaker 2: a line wants to eat a zebra, right, But what

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Speaker 2: you find is that zebras don't always run away when

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Speaker 2: they see lions. Same thing with gazelles and cheetahs. There

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Speaker 2: was this two year study with cheetahs and gazelles where

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Speaker 2: I think it was Claire fits given. She just observed

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Speaker 2: how gazelles interacted with their natural predator of the cheetah,

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Speaker 2: over an eighteen month or a two year period, and

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Speaker 2: what she found was that gazelles would often stop and

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Speaker 2: actually just inspect cheetahs when the cheetahs weren't actively hunting,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't normally distributed across all gazelles, so not

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Speaker 2: all gazelles did this to the same extent. What she

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Speaker 2: found were that it was actually the young gazelles that

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Speaker 2: did it the most. And her explanation for this, which

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Speaker 2: I think makes a lot of sense and probably applies

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Speaker 2: to humans and the way that we consume media and entertainment,

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Speaker 2: is that young gazelles were the most athletics, so they

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Speaker 2: had the highest chance of getting away. They were the

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Speaker 2: least at risk, if you will, But they also had

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Speaker 2: the most to learn. They actually didn't have that many

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Speaker 2: interactions with predators in their lifetime, and so learning about

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Speaker 2: a cheetah, what does it look like, where does it

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Speaker 2: hang out, what does it look like when it's resting,

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Speaker 2: what does it look like when it's moving, How do

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Speaker 2: my parents or other group members react when it's doing

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Speaker 2: this or that? That can teach them a lot that

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Speaker 2: will serve them for the rest of their life. And

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Speaker 2: what's interesting is when you look at humans, if you

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Speaker 2: break down the age ratio of who tends to be,

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Speaker 2: for example, a horror fan, it tends to peak around

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Speaker 2: teenage years and young adult years. Now, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: that there aren't little five or six year olds playing

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Speaker 2: violent or scary video games, and it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: there aren't seventy year olds who still love Georgia Merrow.

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Speaker 2: It just means that, on average, everybody has this kind

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Speaker 2: of peak and curiosity around their teenage years and young

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Speaker 2: adult years. And you see that in a lot of

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Speaker 2: animals too.

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Speaker 1: And the idea is that peak corresponds with when we

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Speaker 1: need to learn about this stuff. It allows us to

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Speaker 1: learn some really valuable information that we could use later.

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Speaker 1: But the difference between a zebra and a human is

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Speaker 1: that humans have all these other mechanisms to learn without

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Speaker 1: kind of directly watching on the savannah. Explain how we

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Speaker 1: can witness and learn about danger in even less costly

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Speaker 1: ways than other animals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, if zeebras could make movies or TV shows,

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Speaker 2: they would absolutely make movies and TV shows about lines, Right,

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Speaker 2: that's what most of their TV shows and books and

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Speaker 2: movies will be about. Yeah, if you're an animal that

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Speaker 2: doesn't have language and transmissible culture, your only way to

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Speaker 2: learn about threats is really to learn about them firsthand.

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Speaker 2: And that's a really good way to learn about them

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Speaker 2: in the sense that you learn the truth. But it's

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Speaker 2: a bad way to learn about them in the sense

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Speaker 2: that it's very dangerous. And so you're going to take

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Speaker 2: fewer opportunities to learn about danger than someone who can

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Speaker 2: learn about it safely, because you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: wait for the right moment to learn about it. And

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Speaker 2: it's really important to capture that right moment. It's important

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Speaker 2: for that young gazelle to pay attention to the cheetah

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Speaker 2: when it's the right moment, in the right circumstances, at

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Speaker 2: the right time. But that's not going to be most

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Speaker 2: of the time now with humans. You know, let's say

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Speaker 2: we want to learn about a wolf. We don't have

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Speaker 2: to go out into the forest to find a wolf

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Speaker 2: and watch it and see what it does. Right. That

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Speaker 2: would be one way to learn about a wolf, but

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Speaker 2: that's a pretty dangerous way to learn about a wolf.

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Speaker 2: A better way to learn about a wolf is to

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Speaker 2: ask someone who has had an interaction with the wolf already,

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Speaker 2: or if there's some communal knowledge about wolves. Create stories

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Speaker 2: that are, you know, like in the film industry, what

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Speaker 2: they call psychologically real. The characters are behaving as if

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Speaker 2: they were real. They have believable actions. So you have

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Speaker 2: this story about a wolf and what it might do

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Speaker 2: if you ran into it in the forest in this

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Speaker 2: situation or this other situation. Maybe it's this wolf with

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Speaker 2: exaggerated features aware wolf, and those exaggerated features kind of

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Speaker 2: clue you into what are the really dangerous parts of

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Speaker 2: the wolf. Big teeth, big claws, fast, they can track you.

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Speaker 2: And so we can learn about any number of potentially

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Speaker 2: dangerous predators that maybe we've never even seen through stories.

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Speaker 2: And then we can take those stories and now we

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Speaker 2: can write them down, we can create audio visual hallucinations

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Speaker 2: of them so that they're very rich and detailed. It's

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Speaker 2: just very, very cheap for us to learn about predators.

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Speaker 2: And this is true with true crime as well. When

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Speaker 2: our mind sees this opportunity to learn about a potentially

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Speaker 2: dangerous person or predator or event and there's no cost

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Speaker 2: to us, I mean, that seems like a great deal, right,

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Speaker 2: of course we're going to be drawn to out of

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Speaker 2: course our curiosity will repeaked.

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Speaker 1: We've argued that our curiosity for kind of things that

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Speaker 1: are scary and morbid falls into four different categories. Let's

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Speaker 1: kind of walk through each of those categories.

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Speaker 2: There seem to be about four categories, four broad categories

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Speaker 2: of morbid curiosity. So those are the minds of dangerous people.

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Speaker 2: So this is an interest in sort of the thinking

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Speaker 2: behind someone who is violent or dangerous. Why are they

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Speaker 2: doing the things that you're doing, What are their justifications?

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Speaker 2: How do they get this way? And that's really good

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Speaker 2: if you know about that for predicting who might be

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Speaker 2: violent or if you're interacting with someone who is violent.

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Speaker 2: A second one, which sounds closely related but is actually

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Speaker 2: a bit different, is an interest in violence itself. So

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Speaker 2: this is an interest in the act of violence. This

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Speaker 2: would be you know, what the Romans were experiencing when

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Speaker 2: they go to the Colisseum, or what you experience if

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Speaker 2: you go to an MMA match or a boxing match.

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Speaker 2: It's not an interest in seeing people be hurt, which

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Speaker 2: I think is a common misconception. It's really just an

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Speaker 2: interest in the action in the event. Because violent events

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Speaker 2: are really consequential events. At least historically they've been very

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Speaker 2: consequential events, and they're important to pay attention to. And

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Speaker 2: you can learn a lot about the two people who

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Speaker 2: are interacting, why they're fighting, who's more powerful, who should

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Speaker 2: maybe be in a coalition with or not being a

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Speaker 2: coalition with. So you have minds of dangerous people violence,

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Speaker 2: you have an interest in sort of bodily injuries or

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Speaker 2: body violations. These are kind of the outcomes of interacting

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Speaker 2: to something dangerous, whether it's intentional or accidental. So if

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Speaker 2: I am in a violent fight, or I come across

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Speaker 2: a dangerous animal in the woods, or have a terrible

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Speaker 2: fall or accident, as an outsider, I can view someone

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Speaker 2: who that happened to and see what are the consequences

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Speaker 2: of this thing, or how dangerous is this event re

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Speaker 2: And you can kind of get a good gauge of

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Speaker 2: that by how bad the injury is or what the

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Speaker 2: injury looks like. It can also tell you something about

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Speaker 2: you know, as humans, we like to help others and

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Speaker 2: we like to heal others. And you know, if we

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Speaker 2: were only disgusted and pushed away from injuries, we wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be very good healers. So you have those three and

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Speaker 2: then the final one is one that I wrestled with

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Speaker 2: a little bit, but the supernatural or paranormal, and I

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Speaker 2: really I think what this is about is an interest

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Speaker 2: in things that we don't quite understand. We think are

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Speaker 2: out there, or we're getting some clues that something is

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Speaker 2: out there, but we don't have enough information. So this

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Speaker 2: could be and it doesn't matter whether you believe in

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Speaker 2: them or not. This could be aliens, it could be ghosts,

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Speaker 2: it could be demons, it can be anything that kind

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Speaker 2: of There are hints in our culture that there's something

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Speaker 2: out there that is intentionally obscuring itself or hiding itself.

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Speaker 2: You know, you don't often think of demons, ghosts, or

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Speaker 2: aliens as being friendly. Casper's like an exception to that, right,

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Speaker 2: Like most of the time when we talk about ghosts,

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Speaker 2: we talk about malevolent ghosts, or if we talk about

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Speaker 2: aliens or not usually thinking the aliens are going to

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Speaker 2: be our friends because they are intentionally hiding themselves. And

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Speaker 2: then humans, if somebody is being intentionally obscure or hiding themselves,

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Speaker 2: they usually have poor intentions. So we're kind of putting

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Speaker 2: those human psychological characteristics onto these other entities. So that's

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Speaker 2: what the supernatural category is sort of about.

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Speaker 1: So I find these four categories really fascinating because I

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Speaker 1: feel like, if you just look at the entertainment that's

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Speaker 1: making the most money in the modern day, it's like

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Speaker 1: picking off each of these different categories, right, Like take

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Speaker 1: the minds of dangerous people, the first category you mentioned. Right.

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Speaker 1: As a podcaster, it's just obvious that true crime podcasts

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Speaker 1: are just like taking off like the data show. They're like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's the third biggest category of podcasts after

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Speaker 1: comedy and news. Obviously news is something we did know about,

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Speaker 1: but the third biggest category of things you want to

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Speaker 1: know about are like the strange minds of crazy psychopaths.

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Speaker 2: Also, what's in the news typically things that are violent

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Speaker 2: and dangerous. Right. There was a study published I think

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Speaker 2: now it's probably been fifteen or twenty years, but it

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Speaker 2: looked at categories of news topics throughout time. I think

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Speaker 2: it was over like a three or four hundred year

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Speaker 2: period in I think it was nine or ten different societies,

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Speaker 2: and the top two most common categories across time, across

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Speaker 2: cultures were death and accidental injury.

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Speaker 1: Even in news our morbid curiosity is coming back is

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Speaker 1: so fascinating. I mean, I also think about the things

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Speaker 1: in entertainment that stick with me, and they tend to

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Speaker 1: be the things that are like the most glory or

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Speaker 1: portray some sort of really incredible mind. Use this example

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Speaker 1: in the book which totally lives rent free in my

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Speaker 1: brain of watching Ridges of a Lost Arc as a

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Speaker 1: little kid, And if you've seen Bridges of Lost Arc,

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Speaker 1: you might remember that there's this part at the end

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Speaker 1: where the arc comes out and everybody's face starts melting,

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Speaker 1: and like that literally like sometimes still pops into my dreams,

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Speaker 1: you know, even though I haven't seen Bridges of Lost

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Speaker 1: Ark in forever. So like this kind of messing with

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Speaker 1: bodies and what bodies are capable of just seems to

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Speaker 1: be well, and that kind of mixes.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Rages of the Lost Dark does a great

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Speaker 2: job of mixing all of these categories. It's got the

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Speaker 2: supernatural with like the arc and kind of this mysterious

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Speaker 2: thing that melts your face like a ice cream cone.

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Speaker 2: And then it has some of the minds of dangerous

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Speaker 2: people with the Nazis and with the bad guys. But

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Speaker 2: then it also has bodily injury or bodily violation with

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Speaker 2: the effects of the supernatural, and so it really does

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Speaker 2: a good job of, I think, capturing all these different

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Speaker 2: areas of morbid curiosity, which probably helps make it or

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Speaker 2: widely enjoyed movie, right, because maybe you don't enjoy one

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Speaker 2: aspect of that, but maybe you're really into supernatural, or

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Speaker 2: maybe you don't like the minds of dangerous people, but

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Speaker 2: you're really into the bodily injuries. I mean, you kind

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Speaker 2: of get these different features coming at you that trigger

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Speaker 2: people in different kinds of it would trigger their curiosity

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Speaker 2: in different kinds of ways.

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Speaker 1: I can't handle much violence or gore and anything involving

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Speaker 1: ghosts or zombies. I'm sleeping with the lights on. But

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Speaker 1: I do love a good true crime documentary. So maybe

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Speaker 1: I've got a little morbid curiosity in me after all,

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Speaker 1: which got me thinking, when does our fascination with spooky

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Speaker 1: stuff actually begin? Turns out a lot earlier than you

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Speaker 1: might imagine. After the Break, we'll hear more about our

401
00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,436
Speaker 1: obsession with spirits, spooks, and psychopaths, and we'll find out

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Speaker 1: why kids often like to mix a little fear into

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Speaker 1: their fun. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like our morbid curiosity is just like

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Speaker 1: all over entertainment, from like movies, from action to horror,

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Speaker 1: to true crime podcast to like watching MMA and you know,

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Speaker 1: World Wrestling Federation and all this stuff. But I get

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Speaker 1: the sense that people are a little bit freaked out

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Speaker 1: about morbid curiosity, both in themselves and in other people.

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Speaker 1: And in your book you talk about how often people's

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Speaker 1: morbid curiosity is used as a scapegoat. Explain what you

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Speaker 1: mean there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you know that you see this

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Speaker 2: with serial killers especially, or any kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: if you watch a true crime documentary, they always go

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Speaker 2: back and they ask what happened in this individual's childhood

417
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Speaker 2: that causes them to be like they are. Now, that's

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Speaker 2: that's not a bad thing to ask. I don't think

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Speaker 2: that's an interesting thing. It's it's potentially useful. But the

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Speaker 2: problem is sometimes you find the one thing that you're

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Speaker 2: a little biased to think caused it, and then as

422
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Speaker 2: soon as that pops up, you say, aha, that's why

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Speaker 2: they've done it. So, you know, one example that I

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Speaker 2: give is with Jeffrey Dahmer, So Dahmer serial killer, cannibal horrible,

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Speaker 2: atrocious crimes. Really had this obsession with one particular horror movie.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if he was a horror movie fan,

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Speaker 2: but he had this obsession with The Exorcist three, which

428
00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:36,156
Speaker 2: is kind of an obscure film a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: it is about a serial killer, and he did kind

430
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Speaker 2: of supposedly emulate or try to emulate this villain in

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Speaker 2: the film. And when people found that out, they went, ah,

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00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:48,316
Speaker 2: of course, he's a cannibalistic serial killer. He watched The

433
00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,796
Speaker 2: Exorcist three over and over again. Another famous example is

434
00:20:51,836 --> 00:20:55,556
Speaker 2: with the Columbine Shooters. You know they played. I don't

435
00:20:55,556 --> 00:20:57,796
Speaker 2: remember the exact games. I think it was like some

436
00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:00,756
Speaker 2: you know, action game that had some violence in it.

437
00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:02,836
Speaker 2: And so when people found that out, because of course

438
00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:04,556
Speaker 2: with these kids, they said, oh my god, what could

439
00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:07,556
Speaker 2: have caused these kids to do this? And the first

440
00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:09,596
Speaker 2: thing that came up was it was violenteo games that

441
00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:12,316
Speaker 2: must have caused it. But really, you know, I mean,

442
00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:14,516
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things wrong with that. One is

443
00:21:14,516 --> 00:21:17,436
Speaker 2: that studies that have looked at school shooters have found

444
00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:20,356
Speaker 2: that they actually are less interested in violent video games

445
00:21:20,396 --> 00:21:23,156
Speaker 2: than non school shooters, right, and that's of course a

446
00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:25,916
Speaker 2: very small sample size against a very very large sample size,

447
00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:27,956
Speaker 2: so there's some maybe some problems with that, But it

448
00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:31,316
Speaker 2: doesn't seem clear that like all school shooters are obsessed

449
00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:34,356
Speaker 2: with violent video games or something. And with Dahmer, I think,

450
00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:36,356
Speaker 2: you know, the thing that's funny to me is that

451
00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:40,556
Speaker 2: the same more be curiosity that people are blaming for

452
00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:43,796
Speaker 2: his crimes is also why those people are interested in

453
00:21:43,796 --> 00:21:45,396
Speaker 2: his crimes in the first place and what caused.

454
00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:46,996
Speaker 1: Them, Right, that's why they're listening to podcasts about him

455
00:21:47,036 --> 00:21:48,836
Speaker 1: and watching Netflix series about him and so on.

456
00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:51,796
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, you know, it's a different subcategory of but

457
00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,956
Speaker 2: it's still this interest in things that are violent or dangerous. Right,

458
00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:59,276
Speaker 2: So are some serial killers interested in violence? Yeah? I

459
00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:03,276
Speaker 2: would say probably. Right, they are violent individuals, They're probably

460
00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:06,356
Speaker 2: going to be interested in violence. But it's shortsighted to

461
00:22:07,036 --> 00:22:10,756
Speaker 2: think that because they're interested in violence that caused their violence.

462
00:22:11,516 --> 00:22:13,116
Speaker 1: So the idea is, when the cost of learning about

463
00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:15,396
Speaker 1: our thread are low, it's super advantageous to pay attention

464
00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:17,516
Speaker 1: to it and become curious about it, which is where

465
00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:20,996
Speaker 1: horror movies and podcasts and video games and all this

466
00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:24,276
Speaker 1: stuff comes from. We've been talking about how like younger

467
00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:27,516
Speaker 1: individuals like the young gazelle's and things like that, are

468
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,796
Speaker 1: learning about the lions. But there's also something that animals

469
00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:32,956
Speaker 1: do a lot that lets them learn, which is specifically

470
00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:35,516
Speaker 1: about play, and so kind of explain what play is

471
00:22:35,796 --> 00:22:38,476
Speaker 1: and why it's so powerful for animals evolutionarily, right.

472
00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:40,636
Speaker 2: Play has been kind of a tricky topic for people

473
00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,436
Speaker 2: who study animals because it doesn't have a good definition,

474
00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:46,076
Speaker 2: because we're not really sure what play is or what

475
00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:48,876
Speaker 2: it's for the best definition that I've come across for

476
00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:54,116
Speaker 2: play is that play helps animals safely or more safely

477
00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:58,436
Speaker 2: practice either events or rehearse events or interactions that they

478
00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:00,756
Speaker 2: might experience later in life. And that makes a lot

479
00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:05,076
Speaker 2: of sense, right. So, for example, with dogs, dogs engage

480
00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:08,436
Speaker 2: in rough and tumble play. This involves usually them rolling

481
00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:11,476
Speaker 2: around kind of chasing each other. This is like what

482
00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:15,116
Speaker 2: wolves do as adults. Wolves are chase predators, if you will,

483
00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:16,916
Speaker 2: so they don't really stalk their prey. They kind of

484
00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:19,036
Speaker 2: once they see them, they chase them. And this is

485
00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:20,276
Speaker 2: what if you have a dog at home, this is

486
00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:21,916
Speaker 2: what they do. They like could play fetch, they go,

487
00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:25,916
Speaker 2: and they chase things, right, Cats also engage in play,

488
00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:27,796
Speaker 2: but they engage in a very different kind of play.

489
00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:30,036
Speaker 2: So when cats play with each other, they do tend

490
00:23:30,076 --> 00:23:31,996
Speaker 2: to kind of stalk each other. They do tend to

491
00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:34,356
Speaker 2: kind of hide and jump out at each other, and

492
00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:37,036
Speaker 2: this is exactly what cats do to their prey, right

493
00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:41,236
Speaker 2: they're stalker predators. So there are these kind of species

494
00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,716
Speaker 2: specific types of play that you see, and humans we

495
00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:46,676
Speaker 2: do a lot of group play. You know, you see

496
00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:49,196
Speaker 2: kids on the playground, and like, you can give them

497
00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:51,876
Speaker 2: activities to do, but if you just let them do

498
00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:54,036
Speaker 2: their own games or come up with their own way

499
00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:57,116
Speaker 2: to entertain themselves, oftentimes it will involve some sort of

500
00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,956
Speaker 2: group play or social dynamics, because that's what humans do.

501
00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:04,076
Speaker 2: We engage with each other, and so kind of playing

502
00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:06,316
Speaker 2: with that or practicing that is something that you see

503
00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 2: among little kids.

504
00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:09,476
Speaker 1: And you've argued that one of the kinds a play

505
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:12,356
Speaker 1: we do is more specifically scary play. Give me some

506
00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:13,796
Speaker 1: examples of this in humans.

507
00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:16,796
Speaker 2: Humans are a little unique in that they tend to

508
00:24:16,836 --> 00:24:19,516
Speaker 2: play a bit longer in life. But of course kids

509
00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:22,716
Speaker 2: are still sort of the perfect players, right, Like they

510
00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:25,116
Speaker 2: would spend almost all of their time playing if they

511
00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:27,596
Speaker 2: could one thing I found really interesting because I don't

512
00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:30,116
Speaker 2: study kids. I'm not a development a psychologist, but I

513
00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:33,036
Speaker 2: had an experience with kids that just maybe realized, wow,

514
00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:36,596
Speaker 2: kids are very morbidly curious. So when I was in

515
00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:40,076
Speaker 2: my master's degree, I used to do these science summer

516
00:24:40,156 --> 00:24:42,476
Speaker 2: camps for kids, and I was, you know, a young

517
00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:45,316
Speaker 2: twenty something, didn't have kids, didn't really know how to

518
00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:48,116
Speaker 2: like teach young kids. Turns out they have very short

519
00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:50,956
Speaker 2: attention spans and need a lot of time to play. Right,

520
00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:53,476
Speaker 2: This was me growing up in Oklahoma. This is a

521
00:24:53,516 --> 00:24:56,316
Speaker 2: summer camp. Oklahoma summers are very very hot. Can't always

522
00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,356
Speaker 2: go outside and play because it's too hot, right, And

523
00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,476
Speaker 2: so I had to learn how to play games with

524
00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:05,596
Speaker 2: kids in this very confined area. And so the game

525
00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:08,836
Speaker 2: as a twenty something that I could come up with

526
00:25:08,836 --> 00:25:10,916
Speaker 2: that I can think of for large groups of people

527
00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:13,356
Speaker 2: was the game Mafia or Werewolf. So if you haven't

528
00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:15,636
Speaker 2: heard of this before, they're kind of variations on the

529
00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:17,276
Speaker 2: same game. But really the idea is that you have

530
00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:20,036
Speaker 2: this group of individuals who live together in a town

531
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,316
Speaker 2: and there's some kind of predator, a dangerous person. In

532
00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 2: the case of Mafia, it's two mafia members. In the

533
00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:29,036
Speaker 2: case of Werewolf, it's two were wolves, and the story

534
00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:30,596
Speaker 2: goes each night the town goes to sleep, so the

535
00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:34,116
Speaker 2: kids cover their eyes and two individuals who are pre

536
00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:36,596
Speaker 2: selected as mafia members come out and they choose someone

537
00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:38,796
Speaker 2: to kill, right, and then the town wakes up and

538
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,156
Speaker 2: they're told so and so was killed last night by

539
00:25:41,156 --> 00:25:44,156
Speaker 2: the mafia. You have to get justice, which humans love

540
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,756
Speaker 2: justice as well. You have to figure out who the

541
00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:50,276
Speaker 2: killer was. So there's a lot of things in this game. Again,

542
00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:53,556
Speaker 2: humans play social games where there's social deception, there's justice.

543
00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:55,516
Speaker 2: There's all these things that we do as adults that

544
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:58,036
Speaker 2: you practice. Let's get So. I was playing this game

545
00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:00,916
Speaker 2: with the kids and in the game there's a narrator,

546
00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:02,516
Speaker 2: and I was playing the part of the narrator, and

547
00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:04,596
Speaker 2: because the kids were pretty young, I was trying to

548
00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:07,436
Speaker 2: be as pg as I could with a game about

549
00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:10,556
Speaker 2: killing people and then hanging them for their So I

550
00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:12,076
Speaker 2: would just say, you know, the mafia came out and

551
00:26:12,076 --> 00:26:14,916
Speaker 2: they so and so died, and yeah, now you need

552
00:26:14,916 --> 00:26:17,636
Speaker 2: to find justice. After a couple of rounds, some of

553
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:19,436
Speaker 2: the kids asked if they could be the narrator. So

554
00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:21,436
Speaker 2: I sure, you can be the narrator, so I let

555
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:23,636
Speaker 2: them narrate. Well, it turns out the kids when the

556
00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:25,276
Speaker 2: town would go to sleep at night and the mafia

557
00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:28,356
Speaker 2: would come out, the mafia were incredibly violent. I mean

558
00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:31,036
Speaker 2: there were these horrible stories about how so and so

559
00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,036
Speaker 2: was murdered and their guts were pulled out, and they

560
00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:36,116
Speaker 2: were thrown in the lake and their heads were chopped off.

561
00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:38,316
Speaker 2: You know that all these terrible things that were happening,

562
00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:41,276
Speaker 2: and the kids loved getting justice for that, they loved

563
00:26:41,356 --> 00:26:43,716
Speaker 2: finding someone that they could hang for these terrible crimes,

564
00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:47,076
Speaker 2: and so the story just became this horrible scene from

565
00:26:47,116 --> 00:26:49,956
Speaker 2: like the worst horror movie that you could imagine. You know. Later,

566
00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:51,716
Speaker 2: when I reflected on that, I was like, Wow, kids

567
00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:54,396
Speaker 2: are incredibly morbidly curious. And you see this in their

568
00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:57,596
Speaker 2: games too, you know, like oftentimes there's a bad guy

569
00:26:57,636 --> 00:26:59,236
Speaker 2: and he's out to get you or kill you or

570
00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:01,916
Speaker 2: hurts you. Even if you look at games that look

571
00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:05,996
Speaker 2: pretty innocent, games like hide and Seek or tag tag

572
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:07,996
Speaker 2: is a game about a predator out trying to get

573
00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:10,236
Speaker 2: other people and get them. Hide and Seek is about

574
00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:12,636
Speaker 2: a bunch of people hiding from a predator who's out

575
00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:15,596
Speaker 2: to get them, right they're playing these games that involve

576
00:27:15,756 --> 00:27:17,636
Speaker 2: danger in a safe way and in a way that

577
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,076
Speaker 2: they kind of learn how to hide, how to run,

578
00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:23,196
Speaker 2: how to interact with people, how to engage in social deception,

579
00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:25,836
Speaker 2: or how to spot social deception. There's a lot of

580
00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 2: elements of threat or danger in the games that kids

581
00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:29,996
Speaker 2: even come up with themselves.

582
00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:32,276
Speaker 1: And this is also true not just in their games,

583
00:27:32,276 --> 00:27:35,036
Speaker 1: but in so much kind of kid related culture. I

584
00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,836
Speaker 1: remember learning things like, you know that song ringing around

585
00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:41,476
Speaker 1: the Rosie, what's it about? Like, it's about the plague.

586
00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:42,316
Speaker 1: It's about the plague.

587
00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:42,556
Speaker 2: You know.

588
00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:44,916
Speaker 1: You look at Grimm's fairy tales where there's you know,

589
00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:48,076
Speaker 1: predators and dangerous things happening all the time. It seems

590
00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:50,916
Speaker 1: like we forget that kids are just super morbidly curious,

591
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:54,276
Speaker 1: which raises this question, like, if they're really engaging in

592
00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:57,076
Speaker 1: all this stuff, does it actually help them learn or

593
00:27:57,076 --> 00:27:59,476
Speaker 1: does it help us as adults learn? And I wanted

594
00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:01,276
Speaker 1: to turn to one of the natural experiments that you

595
00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:03,796
Speaker 1: had a chance to look at when a real dangerous

596
00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:06,476
Speaker 1: thing did happen to us, and that was during the

597
00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:07,876
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic.

598
00:28:08,356 --> 00:28:11,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in early twenty twenty, I had this great

599
00:28:11,756 --> 00:28:14,076
Speaker 2: study set up. This is my first like big study

600
00:28:14,076 --> 00:28:18,436
Speaker 2: for my PhD. I curated this cabinet of morbid curiosities,

601
00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:20,316
Speaker 2: and I had an eye tracking kit that people were

602
00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:22,116
Speaker 2: going to use when they inspected. It was a very

603
00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:23,916
Speaker 2: cool study that I've been planning for a long time.

604
00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:28,636
Speaker 2: I started participant recruitment in March or February of twenty twenty,

605
00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:30,836
Speaker 2: and then like a week later, the school shut down

606
00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:34,356
Speaker 2: for the COVID nineteen pandemic, and so, like everyone else,

607
00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:37,116
Speaker 2: I kind of had to pivot my research and figure

608
00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:39,836
Speaker 2: something else out because now I couldn't do this project

609
00:28:39,836 --> 00:28:42,196
Speaker 2: that I had been planning. So I thought, okay, well,

610
00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:44,876
Speaker 2: the world is like in a very weird place right now.

611
00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:47,676
Speaker 2: We're afraid because there's this new virus we don't know

612
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:51,156
Speaker 2: a lot about that's seemingly like very dangerous. There's this

613
00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:55,076
Speaker 2: lockdown that nobody's ever experienced, and we're kind of told

614
00:28:55,116 --> 00:28:57,036
Speaker 2: we can't go out and do the things we're normally

615
00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,236
Speaker 2: able to do. Everything about the world was pretty scary

616
00:29:00,356 --> 00:29:02,476
Speaker 2: in one way or another for most people at that time.

617
00:29:02,836 --> 00:29:05,756
Speaker 2: And actually there was an editor at News Scientists who

618
00:29:05,796 --> 00:29:09,836
Speaker 2: had asked this question to Mike my collaborator Mattias Clays,

619
00:29:09,836 --> 00:29:12,836
Speaker 2: and she asked him, are people who are horror fans?

620
00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:15,436
Speaker 2: Are they actually doing better right now because they've practiced this.

621
00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:19,036
Speaker 2: So Mattias is a professor at Oorros University in Denmark.

622
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:20,836
Speaker 2: He's a horror literature scholar, and he and I have

623
00:29:20,876 --> 00:29:24,276
Speaker 2: worked together for many years on different projects relating to horror,

624
00:29:24,836 --> 00:29:27,076
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I messaged Mattias and I said,

625
00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:28,996
Speaker 2: this is a great idea for a study. Let's do this.

626
00:29:29,556 --> 00:29:31,316
Speaker 2: And so we teamed up with some other colleagues of

627
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:33,916
Speaker 2: ours and we came up with what was honestly like

628
00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 2: a very simple study. We recruited people and we had

629
00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:40,476
Speaker 2: them answer surveys about how morbidly curious they were, We

630
00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:43,476
Speaker 2: had them answer surveys about their personalities, we had them

631
00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:47,436
Speaker 2: tell us some demographic information, and then we created this

632
00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:50,996
Speaker 2: psychological resilience scale that measured positive resilience, which is sort

633
00:29:51,036 --> 00:29:53,516
Speaker 2: of how optimistic you are about your future and about

634
00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:55,836
Speaker 2: how well you think you can handle the stresses of

635
00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:58,916
Speaker 2: the future given what's happening now. And we asked people

636
00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:01,116
Speaker 2: what kind of movies they tended to enjoy. Do you

637
00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:03,436
Speaker 2: like horror movies or romance movies. Are you watching more

638
00:30:03,436 --> 00:30:05,156
Speaker 2: of these now you know? Are you watching fewer of them?

639
00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:08,396
Speaker 2: Have you seen any pandemic movies you know in your lifetime.

640
00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:10,956
Speaker 2: What we thought we would find was that people who

641
00:30:10,956 --> 00:30:14,316
Speaker 2: were horror fans and morbidly curious might be a bit

642
00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:17,436
Speaker 2: higher in psychological resilience, and that is what we found

643
00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:21,436
Speaker 2: with some weird caveats. So people who were horror movie

644
00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:27,516
Speaker 2: fans reported much lower physiological distress during the pandemic, so

645
00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:32,516
Speaker 2: they were feeling lower levels of anxiety, depression, sleeplessness. People

646
00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:35,836
Speaker 2: who were morbidly curious reported higher levels of positive resilience,

647
00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,196
Speaker 2: meaning they were more optimistic about their ability to handle

648
00:30:39,236 --> 00:30:42,476
Speaker 2: this particular stress going forward. They were optimistic that they

649
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:45,716
Speaker 2: could get through it. And then one interesting finding was

650
00:30:45,756 --> 00:30:48,956
Speaker 2: that people who had seen just one pandemic movie that's

651
00:30:48,956 --> 00:30:51,076
Speaker 2: all you had to see was one, reported they were

652
00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:53,556
Speaker 2: much more prepared for the pandemic and more resilient during it.

653
00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:57,676
Speaker 1: So our morbid curiosity about scary situations might actually give

654
00:30:57,756 --> 00:31:01,036
Speaker 1: us a little protection when similar events happen in real life.

655
00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:04,516
Speaker 1: But what about the everyday scares that life stress and

656
00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:07,836
Speaker 1: work anxiety that so many of us face. Could braving

657
00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:09,996
Speaker 1: a film like Psycho or The sh Shining help us

658
00:31:10,036 --> 00:31:12,516
Speaker 1: handle those two. When we get back from the break,

659
00:31:12,756 --> 00:31:15,396
Speaker 1: Colton will share how flirting with fear might help us

660
00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:19,036
Speaker 1: get better at handling our tough emotions. The Happiness Lab

661
00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:29,356
Speaker 1: will be right back. I always assumed that scaredy cats

662
00:31:29,436 --> 00:31:32,916
Speaker 1: like me usually stick to the comedies and steer clear

663
00:31:32,956 --> 00:31:35,876
Speaker 1: of the thrillers, But it turns out it's not that simple.

664
00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:39,196
Speaker 1: When people are feeling anxious or stressed out, they're just

665
00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:41,996
Speaker 1: as likely, if not more so, to grab a scary

666
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:44,836
Speaker 1: movie and cozy up on the couch for a good fright.

667
00:31:45,516 --> 00:31:48,836
Speaker 1: I asked horror expert doctor Colton Scrivner to break down

668
00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:50,316
Speaker 1: the research on why that is.

669
00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:53,916
Speaker 2: You would think that people who are anxious or are

670
00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 2: scaredy cats are the kind of people who would avoid horror,

671
00:31:56,836 --> 00:31:59,396
Speaker 2: and that, again, on its face, makes a lot of sense.

672
00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:01,476
Speaker 2: If you're really afraid, why seek out something that's just

673
00:32:01,516 --> 00:32:04,196
Speaker 2: going to make you more afraid. When I started thinking

674
00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:06,836
Speaker 2: about this topic of like who goes out to see

675
00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:09,676
Speaker 2: scary movies? I had that initial thought too, people who

676
00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:11,796
Speaker 2: are not anxious, right, because why would they do that?

677
00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:14,356
Speaker 2: But then again I thought about it a little differently

678
00:32:14,396 --> 00:32:16,476
Speaker 2: a little more, and I thought, well, those are also

679
00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:19,036
Speaker 2: the kinds of people who are going to want to

680
00:32:19,076 --> 00:32:21,716
Speaker 2: learn about this stuff. They should be actually seeking out information.

681
00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:23,636
Speaker 2: And so I dug into the literature to see if

682
00:32:23,636 --> 00:32:26,916
Speaker 2: anybody had tested this, and there was one really cool

683
00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:31,916
Speaker 2: sort of field study on this. So pre streaming, there

684
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:34,196
Speaker 2: were physical places you would go to rent your movies.

685
00:32:34,276 --> 00:32:37,676
Speaker 2: Right you would walk into Blockbuster Family Video. You would

686
00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:39,476
Speaker 2: go into the store and they would have movies everywhere

687
00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:41,236
Speaker 2: and you would browse and it was it was great.

688
00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:43,916
Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. So these researchers, I

689
00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:45,636
Speaker 2: think this was in two thousand and I want to

690
00:32:45,676 --> 00:32:48,396
Speaker 2: say seven or eight, they set up like a booth

691
00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:52,196
Speaker 2: outside of a Blockbuster Video and as people came into

692
00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:54,276
Speaker 2: the store, they surveyed them on their mood. So how

693
00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:56,316
Speaker 2: are they feeling? And what these researchers wanted to know

694
00:32:56,596 --> 00:32:59,076
Speaker 2: was how does your mood affect the kind of entertainment

695
00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:02,156
Speaker 2: that you want to consume. So they sat outside this

696
00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:04,676
Speaker 2: Blockbuster store. People came in and they would ask them,

697
00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:07,476
Speaker 2: how nervous are you feeling, how angry are you feeling,

698
00:33:07,516 --> 00:33:10,676
Speaker 2: how happy are you feeling? And you know, reasonably, so

699
00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:14,476
Speaker 2: they assumed that people who were anxious would probably seek

700
00:33:14,516 --> 00:33:16,876
Speaker 2: out something kind of happy to help them get into

701
00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:20,356
Speaker 2: a better mood. People who were feeling bored might seek

702
00:33:20,356 --> 00:33:22,356
Speaker 2: you out an action movie. So the idea was like,

703
00:33:22,356 --> 00:33:24,396
Speaker 2: you would kind of seek the opposite of what you

704
00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:26,156
Speaker 2: were feeling in order to get you to this state

705
00:33:26,196 --> 00:33:28,516
Speaker 2: that you wanted to be in. So people would go

706
00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:30,836
Speaker 2: in the store and they would browse, they would pick

707
00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:32,636
Speaker 2: their movies, and they would come out, and when they

708
00:33:32,636 --> 00:33:34,676
Speaker 2: came out, the researchers would say, hey, can you tell

709
00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:36,316
Speaker 2: us what kind of movie? What movies did you get?

710
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:38,556
Speaker 2: And then they would note down the genre of the movie.

711
00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:41,276
Speaker 2: And what they found, at least for horror, was the

712
00:33:41,316 --> 00:33:43,676
Speaker 2: exact opposite of what they thought. So the people who

713
00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:47,396
Speaker 2: came in feeling anxious and nervous, those were the people

714
00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:49,236
Speaker 2: most likely to watch a horror movie.

715
00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:52,196
Speaker 1: So those findings violate all my intuitions. But they also

716
00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:55,116
Speaker 1: raise this really they also raise this really interesting question,

717
00:33:55,156 --> 00:33:58,636
Speaker 1: which is that like, maybe scary movies actually can help

718
00:33:58,716 --> 00:34:02,676
Speaker 1: us become less anxious. And so how did researchers wind

719
00:34:02,716 --> 00:34:03,316
Speaker 1: up testing that?

720
00:34:04,156 --> 00:34:07,116
Speaker 2: Well, when I started looking into this, when I started

721
00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:09,476
Speaker 2: looking into okay, what does it mean that anxious people

722
00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:13,876
Speaker 2: sometimes seek out scary movies. There wasn't much in the literature,

723
00:34:13,876 --> 00:34:17,116
Speaker 2: and so I actually went to like Reddit threads and

724
00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:20,876
Speaker 2: online articles, op eds, and magazines because people were talking

725
00:34:20,876 --> 00:34:23,356
Speaker 2: about this. A lot real people in the world were

726
00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:26,276
Speaker 2: talking about this, but academics were not, And a lot

727
00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:30,796
Speaker 2: of people would talk about how they accidentally discovered that

728
00:34:30,916 --> 00:34:33,236
Speaker 2: when they were feeling anxious. Feel like, these are people

729
00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:36,396
Speaker 2: who have oftentimes like clinical anxiety, or maybe they were

730
00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:38,996
Speaker 2: just having a really anxious time in their life. They

731
00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:42,636
Speaker 2: would feel this like strange urge to turn on something scary,

732
00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:44,276
Speaker 2: even if they were not horror fans, even if they

733
00:34:44,276 --> 00:34:48,116
Speaker 2: had never been horror fans, and they discovered that it

734
00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:51,236
Speaker 2: kind of helped them calm down or get through that.

735
00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:53,956
Speaker 2: And I thought that was super intriguing, and it kind

736
00:34:53,956 --> 00:34:56,756
Speaker 2: of matched up with this blockbuster study. So I thought, Okay,

737
00:34:56,756 --> 00:34:58,516
Speaker 2: there's got to be a way to do an academic

738
00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:03,956
Speaker 2: study on this. So we created this survey that again

739
00:35:04,036 --> 00:35:07,036
Speaker 2: had a bunch of different statements about why people like

740
00:35:07,076 --> 00:35:08,796
Speaker 2: horror moves, and we collected these from all over the

741
00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:11,476
Speaker 2: internet and magazines and you know, just people talking about

742
00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:13,876
Speaker 2: why they like horror movies. And what we found were

743
00:35:13,916 --> 00:35:17,116
Speaker 2: that horror fans seem to be lumped into kind of

744
00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:20,636
Speaker 2: three types, right, and these aren't mutually exclusive with each other,

745
00:35:20,636 --> 00:35:23,276
Speaker 2: but there's sort of three broad types. There's the adrenaline

746
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:25,516
Speaker 2: junkie who does like horror because it kind of makes

747
00:35:25,516 --> 00:35:28,676
Speaker 2: them feel alive, and this is kind of the classic

748
00:35:28,756 --> 00:35:32,876
Speaker 2: psychological explanation for why people like scary things that are playful,

749
00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:35,996
Speaker 2: same reason that they enjoy roller coaster or skydiving or

750
00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:39,276
Speaker 2: any other high adrenaline activity. But there's another group that

751
00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:41,916
Speaker 2: we called the white knucklers because you're just like watching

752
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:44,316
Speaker 2: the movie with your fists clinch. These are people who

753
00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:46,756
Speaker 2: are truly afraid, like very afraid of what's going on,

754
00:35:47,076 --> 00:35:49,236
Speaker 2: but they still choose to do it. So those people

755
00:35:49,316 --> 00:35:51,236
Speaker 2: were really interesting to us because we wanted to know, like,

756
00:35:51,236 --> 00:35:53,236
Speaker 2: why are you doing this if you're truly afraid of it?

757
00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:55,476
Speaker 2: And then we found this third group that we didn't

758
00:35:55,516 --> 00:35:58,436
Speaker 2: necessarily expect to find, and we decided to call them

759
00:35:58,476 --> 00:36:01,516
Speaker 2: the dark copers because these people essentially were telling us

760
00:36:01,556 --> 00:36:04,796
Speaker 2: that they use scary things to help them get through

761
00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:06,996
Speaker 2: difficult times in their life. That could be depression, it

762
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:09,636
Speaker 2: could be anxiety, it could be kind of thinking about

763
00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:14,756
Speaker 2: existential problems. And so at the time, I was doing

764
00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:18,116
Speaker 2: these sort of yearly or annual haunted house studies in

765
00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:22,316
Speaker 2: Denmark with my collaborator Mattias. So there's this haunted attraction

766
00:36:22,476 --> 00:36:24,436
Speaker 2: like you go to in Halloween, right, a haunted house

767
00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:27,516
Speaker 2: near or who's where Mattias was based, and so I

768
00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:29,156
Speaker 2: would go visit him for a few weeks and we

769
00:36:29,196 --> 00:36:31,596
Speaker 2: would actually go to this haunted house and kind of

770
00:36:31,636 --> 00:36:33,996
Speaker 2: like the Blockbuster study, we would set up this big

771
00:36:34,036 --> 00:36:37,036
Speaker 2: research tent outside the haunted house where people would take

772
00:36:37,076 --> 00:36:39,756
Speaker 2: surveys or we would strap them up to heart rate monitors,

773
00:36:39,796 --> 00:36:41,596
Speaker 2: and we wanted to kind of know like, how are

774
00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:44,596
Speaker 2: these people playing with fear? How are they engaging in

775
00:36:44,676 --> 00:36:46,996
Speaker 2: scary play in the real world. So we had these

776
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:50,876
Speaker 2: three groups identified, we had the survey created, we took

777
00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:53,076
Speaker 2: it to the haunted house. We had people take the

778
00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:55,636
Speaker 2: survey before they went in, and then when they came out,

779
00:36:55,716 --> 00:36:57,556
Speaker 2: we asked them what do you feel like you got

780
00:36:57,556 --> 00:36:59,916
Speaker 2: out of this experience, Like did you get a mood boost,

781
00:37:00,276 --> 00:37:02,476
Speaker 2: do you feel like you learned something about yourself? Do

782
00:37:02,516 --> 00:37:05,756
Speaker 2: you feel like you've kind of developed as an individual

783
00:37:05,836 --> 00:37:08,116
Speaker 2: like you would in therapy or something. And what we

784
00:37:08,196 --> 00:37:11,276
Speaker 2: found were that there were distinct benefits to these different

785
00:37:11,356 --> 00:37:14,116
Speaker 2: kinds of horror fans. So people who were adrenaline junkies,

786
00:37:14,316 --> 00:37:16,636
Speaker 2: they mostly did like it because they got the mood boost.

787
00:37:16,716 --> 00:37:19,236
Speaker 2: They didn't say that they learned anything about themselves. They

788
00:37:19,236 --> 00:37:21,396
Speaker 2: didn't say that they developed as a person. They just

789
00:37:21,476 --> 00:37:24,276
Speaker 2: kind of enjoyed the experience. But what was interesting is

790
00:37:24,276 --> 00:37:27,236
Speaker 2: that the adrenaline junkies were a really small portion of

791
00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:31,116
Speaker 2: our participants. The other probably two thirds to the people

792
00:37:31,716 --> 00:37:35,716
Speaker 2: identified based on our survey as white knucklers or dark copers.

793
00:37:35,716 --> 00:37:38,796
Speaker 2: And these people said that they learned something about themselves

794
00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:40,516
Speaker 2: and kind of developed as a person. And when you

795
00:37:40,556 --> 00:37:42,076
Speaker 2: ask them, you know, what do you mean by that,

796
00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:44,396
Speaker 2: they would say things like I learned the boundaries of

797
00:37:44,436 --> 00:37:46,196
Speaker 2: my fear, kind of like what I could handle them,

798
00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:48,316
Speaker 2: what I can't. I learned how I would react in

799
00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:51,516
Speaker 2: this like high intensity scary situation that I've never been

800
00:37:51,556 --> 00:37:55,316
Speaker 2: in it before. Some people even explicitly would say, now

801
00:37:55,356 --> 00:37:57,596
Speaker 2: I know what I need to do better if I'm

802
00:37:57,596 --> 00:37:59,916
Speaker 2: ever in a situation that's scary like this again. And

803
00:37:59,996 --> 00:38:02,596
Speaker 2: usually they were talking not about the literal situation like

804
00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:05,156
Speaker 2: a man in a pig mask chasing you with the chainsaw.

805
00:38:05,596 --> 00:38:07,836
Speaker 2: But they were talking about the emotional situation, how do

806
00:38:07,876 --> 00:38:12,156
Speaker 2: I handle these emotions that are overwhelmingly negative in many ways?

807
00:38:12,636 --> 00:38:14,036
Speaker 1: And this relates to a few things that we talk

808
00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:15,196
Speaker 1: about a lot in this podcast.

809
00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:15,436
Speaker 2: Right.

810
00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:17,556
Speaker 1: One is this idea that if you want to get

811
00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:20,236
Speaker 1: good at regulating your emotions, whether that's sadness or in

812
00:38:20,276 --> 00:38:23,036
Speaker 1: this case, fear, you actually have to practice doing that.

813
00:38:23,476 --> 00:38:25,956
Speaker 1: And our instinct isn't to practice regulating our emotions, it's

814
00:38:25,956 --> 00:38:28,156
Speaker 1: to avoid emotions all the time, right, And so it

815
00:38:28,196 --> 00:38:30,396
Speaker 1: seems like what your participants were doing in this case,

816
00:38:30,476 --> 00:38:32,396
Speaker 1: or at least kind of ones that identified as white

817
00:38:32,436 --> 00:38:35,836
Speaker 1: knucklers or dark copers, they use the haunted house experience

818
00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:38,996
Speaker 1: and the anxiety that came up there to like practice

819
00:38:39,036 --> 00:38:41,716
Speaker 1: a little bit coping. Another reason I love your studies

820
00:38:41,716 --> 00:38:42,836
Speaker 1: and it fits with the kind of stuff that we

821
00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:45,076
Speaker 1: talk about on the podcast, is that we often talk

822
00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:47,956
Speaker 1: about the problem of suppressing our emotions. Right when we're

823
00:38:48,036 --> 00:38:50,236
Speaker 1: feeling anxious, our move is like, oh, shut it off,

824
00:38:50,276 --> 00:38:52,716
Speaker 1: pretend it's not happening. But a lot of the research

825
00:38:52,716 --> 00:38:54,676
Speaker 1: suggests that the way you get through a negative emotion

826
00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:57,756
Speaker 1: like anxieties to actually feel it, and maybe what better

827
00:38:57,796 --> 00:38:59,956
Speaker 1: way to feel it than to like really ramp it

828
00:39:00,036 --> 00:39:03,076
Speaker 1: up in some like incredibly intense haunted house, safe and

829
00:39:03,116 --> 00:39:05,116
Speaker 1: in a safe way exactly Again.

830
00:39:04,876 --> 00:39:07,076
Speaker 2: It kind of goes back to this idea of play.

831
00:39:07,116 --> 00:39:10,036
Speaker 2: I think this is just an example of scary play.

832
00:39:10,076 --> 00:39:14,596
Speaker 2: And if the point of play is to rehearse situations, well,

833
00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:16,876
Speaker 2: situations can be literal. They can be I need to

834
00:39:16,916 --> 00:39:18,436
Speaker 2: know how to run, or I need to know how to,

835
00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:21,316
Speaker 2: like if I'm disoriented, how to get away. Or they

836
00:39:21,316 --> 00:39:23,676
Speaker 2: can be more psychological or emotional. They can be if

837
00:39:23,676 --> 00:39:26,876
Speaker 2: I'm feeling this, how do I recenter myself a little

838
00:39:26,876 --> 00:39:28,076
Speaker 2: bit and get through this.

839
00:39:28,836 --> 00:39:31,876
Speaker 1: So, if someone's hearing all these benefits that your haunted

840
00:39:31,876 --> 00:39:34,956
Speaker 1: house scoers got out of scary play, and they're curious

841
00:39:34,996 --> 00:39:38,436
Speaker 1: about morbid curiosity, what would be some suggestions about dipping

842
00:39:38,476 --> 00:39:40,636
Speaker 1: their feet in, especially if they're somebody who hasn't engaged

843
00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:42,156
Speaker 1: in a lot of this scary play so far.

844
00:39:42,676 --> 00:39:44,516
Speaker 2: The common mistake that I hear is that people think

845
00:39:44,516 --> 00:39:46,116
Speaker 2: they need to go out and do like the scariest

846
00:39:46,156 --> 00:39:48,756
Speaker 2: thing that they could imagine. That's the wrong way to

847
00:39:48,756 --> 00:39:50,596
Speaker 2: do it. Right, because of course that's going to be

848
00:39:50,636 --> 00:39:52,196
Speaker 2: too much. And that's usually what you hear if you

849
00:39:52,236 --> 00:39:53,676
Speaker 2: talk to adults and you say, you know, do you

850
00:39:53,716 --> 00:39:55,836
Speaker 2: like horror movies? And if they say no, you ask

851
00:39:55,876 --> 00:39:59,796
Speaker 2: them why. Usually the answer is, oh, I watched one

852
00:39:59,796 --> 00:40:01,276
Speaker 2: when I was a kid. They was too scary for me,

853
00:40:01,276 --> 00:40:02,956
Speaker 2: and I just haven't been able to watch them since.

854
00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:05,876
Speaker 2: But what's interesting is a lot of the people who

855
00:40:05,916 --> 00:40:09,476
Speaker 2: as adults become horror fans. And this happened to COVID

856
00:40:09,516 --> 00:40:12,476
Speaker 2: a lot actually, or had its best two years in

857
00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:15,036
Speaker 2: history at the box office in twenty twenty and twenty

858
00:40:15,076 --> 00:40:18,276
Speaker 2: twenty one. So people were seeking out these like scary

859
00:40:18,356 --> 00:40:21,676
Speaker 2: experiences for the first time, many of them, and realizing,

860
00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:24,396
Speaker 2: maybe I can enjoy this. But yeah, I think the

861
00:40:24,396 --> 00:40:27,076
Speaker 2: mistake that people make is that they think they should

862
00:40:27,116 --> 00:40:29,916
Speaker 2: seek out something really scary that's going to terrify them.

863
00:40:30,396 --> 00:40:33,476
Speaker 2: What you should do is exactly what developmental psychologists tell

864
00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:35,196
Speaker 2: us to do the time, which is kind of go

865
00:40:35,236 --> 00:40:37,596
Speaker 2: to the edge of what you're able to do, right,

866
00:40:37,596 --> 00:40:39,676
Speaker 2: the edge of what you can handle. And that's different

867
00:40:39,716 --> 00:40:41,676
Speaker 2: for everybody, you know. We did this study at the

868
00:40:41,716 --> 00:40:44,596
Speaker 2: Hunted House where we strap people up with heart rate monitors,

869
00:40:44,636 --> 00:40:46,116
Speaker 2: and we wanted to know, is there kind of like

870
00:40:46,196 --> 00:40:49,876
Speaker 2: a sweet spot of fear? Is there this optimal experience

871
00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:52,316
Speaker 2: is a Goldilock zone, because that's true for a lot

872
00:40:52,316 --> 00:40:55,116
Speaker 2: of things. It's true for learning, it's true for flow

873
00:40:55,196 --> 00:40:58,356
Speaker 2: states are we're really productive, and so we thought, well,

874
00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:00,556
Speaker 2: maybe it's true for fear too, and that doesn't seem

875
00:41:00,556 --> 00:41:02,556
Speaker 2: to be true. What we found in this study was

876
00:41:02,556 --> 00:41:04,836
Speaker 2: that there's a sweet spot. And the sweet spot is

877
00:41:04,836 --> 00:41:06,796
Speaker 2: a little different for everybody, but it does tend to

878
00:41:06,836 --> 00:41:08,476
Speaker 2: be kind of like if you imagine a one to

879
00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:10,756
Speaker 2: ten scale, it's like about a seven out of ten.

880
00:41:11,316 --> 00:41:13,636
Speaker 2: When they were too afraid, their heart rate was too erratic,

881
00:41:14,036 --> 00:41:16,156
Speaker 2: they weren't having as good of a time. When it

882
00:41:16,236 --> 00:41:19,036
Speaker 2: was about seven out of ten on the max, that's

883
00:41:19,036 --> 00:41:20,956
Speaker 2: when they were really having the best time, having the

884
00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:23,236
Speaker 2: most fun. And so I think what you should do

885
00:41:23,276 --> 00:41:25,756
Speaker 2: if you're trying to get into scary entertainment and you're

886
00:41:25,796 --> 00:41:28,156
Speaker 2: curious that maybe this could help you. Start with the

887
00:41:28,156 --> 00:41:30,276
Speaker 2: easy stuff, Start with stuff you know you can handle, right,

888
00:41:30,676 --> 00:41:32,476
Speaker 2: and then kind of just go from there and edge

889
00:41:32,556 --> 00:41:34,716
Speaker 2: up further and further until you get to something that

890
00:41:34,796 --> 00:41:36,716
Speaker 2: is kind of scary, and you do have to practice

891
00:41:36,756 --> 00:41:39,276
Speaker 2: that emotion regulation. You're kind of in your goldilock zone.

892
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:41,596
Speaker 2: You're in your sweet spot. But eventually your sweet spot

893
00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:42,836
Speaker 2: is going to move right. You're going to get better

894
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:44,916
Speaker 2: at that, You're going to be able to handle something more.

895
00:41:45,356 --> 00:41:46,756
Speaker 2: And I think this is what a lot of people

896
00:41:47,156 --> 00:41:48,916
Speaker 2: are afraid of when it comes to horror movies. They

897
00:41:49,276 --> 00:41:52,276
Speaker 2: argue that, oh, well, it desensitizes you to violence, or

898
00:41:52,276 --> 00:41:55,276
Speaker 2: it desensitizes you too these things. And I think it

899
00:41:55,276 --> 00:41:58,036
Speaker 2: does desensitize you, but not to violence per se, not

900
00:41:58,036 --> 00:42:00,716
Speaker 2: to real violence. It desensitizes you a little bit to

901
00:42:00,756 --> 00:42:02,756
Speaker 2: your anxiety and to your fear, and it allows you

902
00:42:02,796 --> 00:42:05,156
Speaker 2: to actually handle higher doses.

903
00:42:05,476 --> 00:42:07,436
Speaker 1: This makes me very comforted that we're starting out with

904
00:42:07,516 --> 00:42:10,756
Speaker 1: baby steps into morbid curious. Someone who's really afraid of

905
00:42:10,756 --> 00:42:11,156
Speaker 1: this stuff.

906
00:42:11,236 --> 00:42:13,316
Speaker 2: No, I need. I need to write a my Baby's

907
00:42:13,316 --> 00:42:15,156
Speaker 2: First Morbidly Curious Experience book.

908
00:42:15,716 --> 00:42:17,956
Speaker 1: That's definitely the one that I need. My husband and

909
00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:19,956
Speaker 1: I are inspired by your book. I've been trying to

910
00:42:19,956 --> 00:42:23,276
Speaker 1: watch more horror movies and thrillers and sometimes I'm like,

911
00:42:23,476 --> 00:42:25,276
Speaker 1: time out, this is too much. We're gonna hit pause

912
00:42:25,276 --> 00:42:27,076
Speaker 1: on this. We're going to watch it again tomorrow.

913
00:42:27,156 --> 00:42:28,676
Speaker 2: That's what you should be doing. Yeah, It's like if

914
00:42:28,716 --> 00:42:30,476
Speaker 2: it's too much, like pause for a second, you know,

915
00:42:30,516 --> 00:42:32,916
Speaker 2: it's okay to like cover your eyes and portions. Those

916
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:35,836
Speaker 2: are emotion regulation skills. Those are tactics, right, Like when

917
00:42:35,836 --> 00:42:38,556
Speaker 2: people cover their eyes and a scary scene, they're regulating

918
00:42:38,596 --> 00:42:41,836
Speaker 2: their anxiety and their fear, right, and over time they

919
00:42:41,876 --> 00:42:43,276
Speaker 2: might get a little better at that. They do have

920
00:42:43,316 --> 00:42:44,956
Speaker 2: to kind of like push yourself to peak, right, You

921
00:42:44,996 --> 00:42:46,196
Speaker 2: kind of have to like look through your fingers a

922
00:42:46,236 --> 00:42:46,596
Speaker 2: little bit.

923
00:42:46,716 --> 00:42:49,436
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the turtleneck in horror movies

924
00:42:49,996 --> 00:42:52,996
Speaker 1: and glory movies. I recently watched The Substance with Demi Moore.

925
00:42:53,116 --> 00:42:55,716
Speaker 1: Great films, but a lot but the turtleneck. You can

926
00:42:55,796 --> 00:42:57,996
Speaker 1: just kind of cover up your eyes, peak with one eye,

927
00:42:58,076 --> 00:42:59,276
Speaker 1: pull it back up, put down.

928
00:42:59,796 --> 00:43:00,156
Speaker 2: Yeah.

929
00:43:00,196 --> 00:43:02,076
Speaker 1: But those are skills, right, That's the kind of thing

930
00:43:02,076 --> 00:43:04,116
Speaker 1: I might need to take in a different form into

931
00:43:04,116 --> 00:43:07,156
Speaker 1: a situation that's really anxiety provoking or really scary in

932
00:43:07,196 --> 00:43:07,996
Speaker 1: my normal life.

933
00:43:08,076 --> 00:43:10,756
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and eventually you learn to take more cognitive

934
00:43:10,756 --> 00:43:13,316
Speaker 2: approaches to emotion regulation, right. Those are like physical things

935
00:43:13,316 --> 00:43:14,836
Speaker 2: you can do. You can turn the lights on you

936
00:43:14,876 --> 00:43:16,836
Speaker 2: can turn the sound down, you can cover your eyes

937
00:43:16,876 --> 00:43:22,196
Speaker 2: and scary scenes, but you also are inherently practicing cognitive

938
00:43:22,236 --> 00:43:26,596
Speaker 2: emotion regulation skills, cognitive reframing. You know, telling yourself how

939
00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:29,436
Speaker 2: extreme I feel right now doesn't match like what's really happening,

940
00:43:29,796 --> 00:43:32,756
Speaker 2: So you are practicing those cognitive skills as well. So

941
00:43:32,796 --> 00:43:35,636
Speaker 2: in order to get like the optimal amount of fun,

942
00:43:35,676 --> 00:43:38,516
Speaker 2: people kind of regulate their fear both up and down.

943
00:43:38,596 --> 00:43:40,916
Speaker 2: So sometimes they want to be more afraid, and so

944
00:43:40,956 --> 00:43:42,716
Speaker 2: they kind of get into it really and let themselves

945
00:43:42,756 --> 00:43:44,676
Speaker 2: scream and like look at the actors and look at

946
00:43:44,676 --> 00:43:47,476
Speaker 2: the scary things, and sometimes they cover their eyes, and

947
00:43:47,516 --> 00:43:49,676
Speaker 2: sometimes they tell themselves it's not real. And it's all

948
00:43:49,676 --> 00:43:53,396
Speaker 2: in this attempt to regulate how afraid you are, how

949
00:43:53,396 --> 00:43:55,356
Speaker 2: anxious you're feeling, so that you can have the most fun.

950
00:43:55,396 --> 00:43:57,476
Speaker 2: But of course the side effect of that is you're

951
00:43:57,516 --> 00:44:00,516
Speaker 2: practicing regulating your emotions both up and down, and so

952
00:44:00,556 --> 00:44:02,876
Speaker 2: you have more kind of just mastery in general over

953
00:44:02,876 --> 00:44:04,396
Speaker 2: those negative emotions that we tend to.

954
00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:08,716
Speaker 1: Avoid so safely. Enjoying a bunch of psychopaths and monsters

955
00:44:09,196 --> 00:44:11,116
Speaker 1: may not only get your blood pumping in the moment,

956
00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:13,756
Speaker 1: it may also make you a little bit more resilient

957
00:44:13,916 --> 00:44:17,196
Speaker 1: in the long run. That's a pretty compelling reason to

958
00:44:17,236 --> 00:44:20,596
Speaker 1: dive a little deeper into spooky season this year. Now,

959
00:44:20,676 --> 00:44:23,276
Speaker 1: I'm not quite willing to give up my turtleneck or

960
00:44:23,396 --> 00:44:26,276
Speaker 1: keep my finger off the pause button, But this Halloween,

961
00:44:26,436 --> 00:44:28,876
Speaker 1: I think I'm finally ready to take some baby steps

962
00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:33,076
Speaker 1: towards embracing my inner scream. Queen to my fellow scaredy cats,

963
00:44:33,236 --> 00:44:34,836
Speaker 1: let me know if you decide to do the same.

964
00:44:35,356 --> 00:44:38,076
Speaker 1: In the name of a happier Halloween, I challenge all

965
00:44:38,116 --> 00:44:40,356
Speaker 1: of us to seek out a bit more spooky delight.

966
00:44:42,316 --> 00:44:44,236
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be on a short break for

967
00:44:44,276 --> 00:44:46,596
Speaker 1: the next few weeks, but we'll be back soon with

968
00:44:46,676 --> 00:44:50,156
Speaker 1: more holiday related episodes, just in time for the season

969
00:44:50,236 --> 00:44:52,876
Speaker 1: of gift giving, So be sure to swing back for

970
00:44:52,996 --> 00:44:56,116
Speaker 1: more episodes of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie

971
00:44:56,116 --> 00:44:56,956
Speaker 1: Santo's