WEBVTT - Remembering JFK Jr. and Carolyn: 25 Years Later - Part Two: Carolyn 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:10.799 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:12.680 just a couple of months ago, I sat down with 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.200 John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.560 his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.599 occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.439 and his sister every year. As it happened, we did 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.639 not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.640 share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.160 Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.400 about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.200 ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.120 John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.479 believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:52.760 before he. 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.640 Parented for both of them, and I think she was 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.560 deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his serns were 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.000 part of our upbringing and some of her own which 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:08.160 were not his, And I think there was a dynamic 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.320 there that was healthy. 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.360 Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.560 these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:23.319 Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior, 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.800 his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.120 piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts. 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.600 He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:42.440 and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today, 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.040 on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.120 companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.400 of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.920 journalist Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.680 Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.600 of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.399 Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:15.920 well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time, 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.520 no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.200 about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.800 among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.959 seems like many people who knew them are now willing 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.679 to open up and tell some stories about their lives. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.160 What was it about John and Carolyn that made people 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.679 so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.960 both the past and the future. Was it a combination 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:48.080 of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.120 was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them, 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:56.200 and of course one of the millions of women besotted 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.040 by John. Seeing that come to a sudden senselessness and 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.800 was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.320 in many ways, we get to know them all over 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.839 again and have a much better sense of who they 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:17.440 really were. First of all, thank you for talking to 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:22.880 me about this book and about Carolyn Bissett, because like 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.799 most people of my generation, I was absolutely fascinated by 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:32.120 her admired her from afar. She was such an enigma, 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.600 I think to so many of us. Why did you 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.080 decide you wanted to write this book, Elizabeth? 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:43.600 I decided after the twentieth anniversary of the accident because 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.040 all this information sort of came in my inbox when 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.400 they were alive. I of course knew who they were, 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.840 but I only saw them on newsstands, you know, or 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.200 in the Delhi and I didn't really read that much 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.720 about them at the time. It's just a different culture 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.880 now and the media is very different. So I was 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.840 getting stories in my inbox, and I began to read, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.320 and I noticed a huge discrepancy between the way that 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.920 people who knew her spoke about her and the way 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.719 certain tabloids spoke about her. And the more I read, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.960 the more I noticed it, and then I felt compelled 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.839 to sort of change the narrative. For example, Rose Marie 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:33.480 trenzia book Fairytale Interrupted, and then Carol Radzewill's book What Remains, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:39.320 both incredible books really show a different picture than certain 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:44.440 tabloids that were painting her out to be a harvey 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.760 or a gold digger or you know, and after the fact, 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.880 many years later, sort of trying to lay blame for 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.400 the accident at her feet, which felt wrong. 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.200 Why did you find yourself gravitating toward the contours of 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.120 Carolyn's story and what do you mean exactly by that? 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.320 Let's see, I think the contours that drew me to 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:12.600 it were I was very interested in someone, especially in 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.760 an age where we're so saturated by pictures of people 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.360 and putting up their platform. I was very interested in 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.280 somebody who was not interested in fame. In fact, she 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.839 saw it as sort of the thief of joy, and 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:29.800 that restraint was very interesting and actually attractive. I think 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.719 we're at a very interesting crux in society where I 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.320 hope that we are starting to realize that a little 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:40.920 bit of the internet's sort of toxic herd mentality can 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.800 start to change a bit, and we're beginning to understand 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.840 that things aren't exactly the way they seem from the outside, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:52.280 and everybody has their own battle, and whether we can 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.080 see it visually or not, it's there, and I hope 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.479 this can represent a little bit of a change in 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.279 the way that we treat people in the public eye. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:07.080 Tell me about the process, because you did extensive reporting, Elizabeth, 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.120 you talked to so many people. Tell me who you 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.200 reached out too, if you spoke with and were there 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.600 people who did not want to talk to you. 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:21.880 Yes, there were. It was a long process and it 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.960 took a lot of time. Some people ended up speaking 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.359 to me sort of after getting to know me a 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.719 bit and realizing the types of questions that I was asking, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.200 and then when that was the moment I believe they 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.600 realized I was looking for the contours of her story. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:42.039 I was looking to understand a human being that held 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:48.279 back quite a bit. There were eventually, thank goodness, a 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.440 lot of people who really wanted to participate in studying 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.760 the record straight and showing what a compassion based person 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.760 she was. She was a caretaker. And the ones who 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.680 did didn't decide to speak. I actually respect that too. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.839 I mean, they want to protect the fact that they 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:13.280 asked them to not speak to people about their private 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.920 lives when they were alive, and I find it beautiful 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.480 that people want to honor that. But I also equally 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.760 find it beautiful that they At this point, it's about 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.240 legacy and we want to change it. We don't want 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.640 it to let it stand that she was some heartbee 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:31.840 who made their You know, it's her fault that the 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.320 plane took off late because she was getting a pedicure 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.760 for three hours. You know, these kind of fallacies. 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.160 I want to talk a little bit about that day 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.679 in a moment, but first I want to go back 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.600 to the nineties when they were at the white hot 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:48.080 epicenter of popular culture. I don't think there were two 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:52.040 more famous people back then then. John F. Kennedy Junior 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:56.320 and Carolyn Bissett. Take us back and describe to someone 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.120 who perhaps wasn't around then, what their lives were like, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:06.440 and how they occupied such a huge role in the 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:07.640 media landscape. 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.920 Yes, I think they were one of the first celebrities 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.680 who were sort of chased in that and that kind 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.280 of way. In the nineteen nineties, John had just sort 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.040 of come into age, and it was a sport and 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.160 a pastime to have JFK. Junior sightings around New York City. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.800 He really was. You know, everybody would talk about it. Oh, 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.840 John was here, John was there. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.800 I saw him running in the park. I saw him 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.920 kicking a soccer ball without his shirt. I mean part 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.320 of the deal was I mean, if I had to 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:46.080 be brutally Frank is just he was so handsome. He 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.160 was just a beautiful man. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:54.160 Yes, I mean, obviously he was. I the one of 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.920 the few times I saw him, he was rollerblading up 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.480 Columbus Avenue and as we know, columb heads down and 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.120 you get a shirt off, and was holding a pizza 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.839 box above his head. Everybody on the street steps and 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.600 was like, what was that? What was it? And then 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.720 you realize later, Oh, it was JFK. Junior. And you know, yes, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:19.000 obviously looks very different than most people. But I think 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.960 one of the things about him is that he was 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:28.440 gracious and kind and took that attention with such grace. 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:33.040 He learned from the best his mother, right, and he 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.320 kind of learned from osmosis. There unfortunately, was not a 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.000 handbook that he could hand to Carolyn to learn how 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:44.400 to take that, you know, attention in stride. But also 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.880 I think it's important to keep in mind that there 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:51.160 was so much surrounding John that the attention going to 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.160 her was maybe sort of a mother in law mentality 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.400 or you know, what do you mean, who was this woman? 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.920 Why is she the one white her? So then you 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.960 you know, then the media started to sort of pick 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.760 her apart and buy her looks and where she was from, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.480 what her career was. There were even comments that, you know, 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:18.000 Calvin Klein pr wasn't proper enough for Kennedy wife, and. 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.520 It wasn't a serious enough job, correct, right. 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:26.599 And the thing was is, you know, they seemed to, 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.840 according to friends, fallen in love because they were both 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:34.080 combastionion based people and they liked to laugh a lot together. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:40.120 They were devoted to their family and friends, and I 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.600 you know, and but when he started dating her, a 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.320 lot of that attention went on to her too, and 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.480 even more so after they were married. I don't think 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.920 there was any way that anyone could have had any 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:53.880 idea exactly what that was going to be like. 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.760 After this quick break, Elizabeth takes us back to the 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:05.880 moment met Carolyn and John met. If you want to 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.560 get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.120 and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.280 sign up for our daily newsletter wake Up Call by 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:26.000 going to Katiecouric dot com. Now more with author Elizabeth Beller, 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.600 tell us about how they first met and if it 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.960 was an immediate attraction. Take us back to that moment. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.560 Yeah, nineteen ninety two and John was coming in to 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.520 look at some suits, and they kind of decided Carolyn 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.840 would be the best person at Calvin Kleine to show 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.080 him the suits. She was probably the most effervescent, but 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:58.640 also the least likely to be intimidated by celebrity. Celebrity 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.480 was not high on her her list, or fame was 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.920 not high on her list. I know she wanted to 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.840 do something important with her life and meaningful, but she 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.760 was not focused on those kinds of things, so she 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:16.400 was unfazed by celebrities. Who Cape men. So they immediately 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.080 hit it off and then there was about two years 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.720 of back and forth and back and forth. You know, 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.640 they were very young at the time. 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:25.920 How old were they. 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.199 I think she was twenty six and he must have 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:36.360 been almost thirty two, my math, and but he was 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.040 very He was in a state of fux. He was 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.640 working in the DA's office still in nineteen ninety two. 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.920 I understand coming to the understanding that he did not 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.200 want to be a lawyer and figuring out what was next, 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.360 and George was just an idea. Slowly, it was more 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.000 so that he was working on it. And by the 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.040 time I think he felt settled into what he knew 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.640 he was going to do, because, let's face it, what 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.160 he going to do was a big burden for him. 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.040 He had to do with that last name. There was 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.360 an enormous pressure for him to do something big and 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.920 to make it stand out. And turns out George was 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:16.679 quite precient because culture and politics do go hand in 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.560 hand today. But it took him a while to get 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.680 settled in that, and I think he needed to feel 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.920 that he knew what his trajectory was going to be 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.120 before he settled down. And by then Jackie got sick, 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.360 and unfortunately he did not get to introduce Carolyn and Jackie, 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.840 which he told several friends that was one of his 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.160 biggest regrets. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.320 Do you think he would have gone into public service ultimately. 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:46.080 Yes, absolutely, he told several friends. And he also he 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.439 was going to run for senator, and then when Hillary Clinton, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.040 they were friendly with the Clinton family. When Hillary Clinton 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.559 went into that senatorial race, he sort of backed out, 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.880 but then he started to eye governorship. It was definitely 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.760 in the plan, and one of the things that he 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.400 was working on. One of the many weights they had 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:12.240 was that, you know, George, it initially did very well, 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.520 and then, like a lot of magazines, it takes quite 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:19.640 some time to make money financially, and he was under 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.520 a lot of financial burden with that. And it was 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.600 David Becker who was the head of Hush at Philipacci 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.840 at the time, and they would trot John out for dinners, 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.480 for bringing in advertising money and lunches and appearances, and 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.120 it turned out they weren't one hundred percent sure that 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.920 money was going into George. So it was a very 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:42.600 tricky time. 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.160 I don't want John's memory to overshadow Carolyn's because after all, 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.920 this is a book about her life. Tell us a 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:55.520 little bit about her childhood, about her family life, about 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.200 going to Boston University. Just give us a thumbnail sketch 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.560 of who this young woman was. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.840 Yes, so she was born in White Plains and she 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.040 lived there until she was eleven. A lot of that 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.960 time was with her single mother and her two older sisters, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.040 who were twins. Her mother was a powerhouse, and actually 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.320 all three girls were too. They took her example to heart, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.720 and she not only taught them to work hard, but 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.840 she taught them a lot about empathy and not leaving 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.200 people behind. And that was one of the things that 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.000 prompted me to want to write this book, that she 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.960 really was a caretaker, very compassion based. If someone had, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.200 you know, an issue. In third grade, a friend was 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.840 getting bullied, she you know, put this person under her 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.960 wing and took care of them. In fifth grade, there 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.400 was a boy whose mother had died, and children can 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.080 sometimes not be quite sympathetic or and they you know, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.840 were saying, you know, oh, your mom died, and Carolyn 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.400 was the one to come to him and say no, no, no, no, 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.080 don't listen to them. They don't really know what they're 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.800 talking about and comforted him, took him under her wing. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.560 That this was behavior that she always had her mother's family. 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:19.480 Her mother was a first generation Italian American. Her grandfather 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.480 came from Italy, a very strong work ethic. I like 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.480 to think it has to do with her impeccable eye 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.880 and fashion and style as well. She did have some 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.440 times where she felt like her father was not around enough. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.680 But one of the beautiful things was later on in 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.720 her life and even at the encouragement of John, that 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.480 they had a reprochement. And it was lovely because she 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.040 began to understood more that it wasn't that her father 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.400 didn't want to be there, but if you're living apart, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.400 and it was the seventies and his work took him 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.920 away quite often, and then kids get caught up in 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:05.920 their lives and it was more about circumstances. But were 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:11.560 they divorced, Yes, the parents divorced when Caroline nineteen seventy four. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:16.280 They divorced and Carolyn's mother, Anne Freeman, who was a 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.760 teacher beloved by her students by the way, remarried an 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.439 orthopedic surgeon and then they relocated to Greenwich, Connecticut. So 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.000 people often like to say she's from an affluent background. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.840 She was more from a middle class background, but with 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:39.560 a very strong work ethic and highly intelligent and empathetic people. 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.400 I like to put it that way, and I think 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.320 that was a lot of her appeal for John. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.080 She went on to Boston University. Tell us about her 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.200 college years and how she was shaped by them. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.160 You know, it's funny. I just met someone the other 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.800 day who went to college with her that I didn't 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.520 get a chance to speak to for the book. They 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.080 all spoke about how down to earth she was. That 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.240 kindness was definitely there. Taking care of her roommate lost 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.200 her mother, she sat down next to her on the 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.080 couch and just, you know, held her hand in a 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.760 way that is unusual for someone at that age. She 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.800 studied education, which is what her mother studied, and she 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:28.480 adored children, absolutely adored them, and had an excellent way 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.600 with them. They often immediately felt comfortable in her presence. 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.000 But a lot of her classmates noted that she was 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.960 very down to earth. Most of the time. She was 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.720 in sweats or you know, scrambled her hair on top 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.080 of her head. She was not a fashion plate at 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.639 the time. She was buried down to Earth and from 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:53.160 Boston University. She was getting out of a cab at 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.000 Chestnut Hill Mall and she was spotted by a Calvin 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.400 Klein regional representative who said, hey, you you to come 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.560 and work in this store. So, I you know, she definitely, 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.520 you know, and a fashion icon, an impeccable eye. But 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.160 I don't think that was what she had always planned 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.920 to do with her life. And I think her values 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.240 were often comse elsewhere. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.280 So you think she wanted to be a teacher like 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:25.439 her mom, ideally until the fates intervened, and so the 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:26.520 faiths intervened. 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.399 Yes, I think I think she did. You know, she 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.840 got a degree in education. There's an adorable story in 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.760 the book about she and another woman student teaching and 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.880 it's Boston and December and they've got to get three 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.639 year olds outside and then back inside without tears. So 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.760 they duct taped there were going to just duct tape 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.560 these little kittens to their mittens, you know, the cop 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.960 to the mittens, and then just kind of cut them 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.880 off when they come back in. She just loved and 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:03.960 one of the things that she was thinking about doing 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:08.360 before the accident, she was really thinking about getting back 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.480 into teaching in any way that she could to work 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:18.119 with underserved communities. It was important to her, and so 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.240 she needed time. Though. She needed time to figure out 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.800 how what exactly that would be and exactly how it 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.440 would look. Because they had so many eyes on them, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.720 she felt like she needed to have everything locked and 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.160 loaded because she knew that if she didn't the way 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:38.240 the tabloids had been that she would get torn apart 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.640 for it. So she was being careful about her next steps. 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.879 But they had not even been married three years. So 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.920 when we think about all the iterations and career changes 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.879 that we've all had over the many years, you know, 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:53.960 it would have been lovely to be able to see 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.280 what she would have done. I think it would have 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:57.360 made a difference. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.720 You know, when I look back at photos of that 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.200 time when she is dating and then married to John, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:12.359 I think how terrifying and borderline miserable it must have 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:18.080 been to just be hunted like that everywhere you went. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.399 They couldn't leave their apartment. I think they had a 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.119 place in Tribeca, and every time they left their home 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.000 or walked down the street, I mean, it was just 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.960 these vultures descending on them. And I'm sure and by 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.960 the way, some of the people, the paparazzo's I guess 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.240 that's the plural, are actually fine and nice people. This 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.080 is how they make a living. But it's just so 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:50.600 constant and so intrusive. How did she feel about being 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.000 on display? Pretty much twenty four to seven, or whenever 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.560 she ventured out in public, she. 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:01.600 Was terrified, absolutely terrified. And they treated her differently if 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:04.080 she was when she was with John and if she 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:07.320 was on her own. If John was around, it was 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.920 a little bit more like, Hi, how are you guys doing? 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.560 Can you give us a smile? You know, keeping a 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.520 respectful distance. If she was on her own, they would 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:20.879 often close in and yell out epithets to try to 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:25.400 get a face of unhappiness that they could then add 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.960 a story of, you know, trouble in the marriage, you know, 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.919 create that narrative. She became further and further frightened. It 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:39.119 was terrible. I mean, I'm hoping that with this book 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:45.160 that the difference between how someone was painted and who had, 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.119 you know, had to live in the public eye. The 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:51.439 difference between how they were painted and the reality is 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.479 something that we can all start to maybe keep in 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:59.600 our minds when we sort of that toxic herd mentality 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.520 that we have towards people in the public eye. You know, 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:07.720 everyone free to comment, and it's you know, let's elevate 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.399 a little bit and keep in mind that these are 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:15.640 human beings trying to live a real life, and we 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:20.040 have an opportunity now. I think, you know, everyone's saturated 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.959 with images. People feel obligated to have a platform by 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.720 putting pictures of themselves out there. Maybe it's I'm hoping 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.800 the book sort of shows a way that people can 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.919 empathize a little bit more understand that people never no 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.399 one ever knows exactly how something is going to go. 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.600 Carolyn couldn't have known that this would have been her life. 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:41.400 She knew that she would be in the public eye. 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:43.800 She had no idea she could walk out her front door. 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.920 And I just think, be a little gentler and kinder 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.000 with one another, and just know that we, even if 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:54.240 it may look like we have absolutely everything, that everyone's 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:54.879 got a battle. 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.680 Do you think John prepared her well enough. This reminds 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:02.240 me a little bit of Megan Markle and Prince Harry. 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:07.520 You know, somebody entering this public sphere and having a 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:12.120 certain appreciation for what was to come, but not truly 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:19.000 experiencing or understanding the level of intensity that takes place. 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:25.800 And I'm curious if he helped her enough acclimate to 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.600 this new normal they experienced. 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:31.920 Let's see. Well, you know, the funny thing is is 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.320 it ramped up after they got married, and that was 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.720 exactly when they were expecting it to settle down. There 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:41.840 was interest and it was incoming, but once they got married, 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.200 it went into overdrive. And I really don't think there 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:49.680 was any way to anticipate that it would be exactly 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.000 like that. And I think John did try to sort 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:57.359 of teach her. He was a gracious, kind man. 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.760 And it's something he was so used to because he 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:00.920 had grown up with it. 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:05.359