Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well,
Speaker 1: just a couple of months ago, I sat down with
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be
Speaker 1: his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the
Speaker 1: occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John
Speaker 1: and his sister every year. As it happened, we did
Speaker 1: not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to
Speaker 1: share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK
Speaker 1: Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking
Speaker 1: about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't
Speaker 1: believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months
Speaker 1: before he.
Speaker 2: Parented for both of them, and I think she was
Speaker 2: deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his serns were
Speaker 2: part of our upbringing and some of her own which
Speaker 2: were not his, And I think there was a dynamic
Speaker 2: there that was healthy.
Speaker 1: Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all
Speaker 1: these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary.
Speaker 1: Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior,
Speaker 1: his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing
Speaker 1: piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three,
Speaker 1: and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today,
Speaker 1: on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of
Speaker 1: companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors
Speaker 1: of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by
Speaker 1: journalist Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy.
Speaker 1: Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection
Speaker 1: of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by
Speaker 1: Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as
Speaker 1: well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time,
Speaker 1: no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much
Speaker 1: about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding
Speaker 1: among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it
Speaker 1: seems like many people who knew them are now willing
Speaker 1: to open up and tell some stories about their lives.
Speaker 1: What was it about John and Carolyn that made people
Speaker 1: so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent
Speaker 1: both the past and the future. Was it a combination
Speaker 1: of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I
Speaker 1: was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them,
Speaker 1: and of course one of the millions of women besotted
Speaker 1: by John. Seeing that come to a sudden senselessness and
Speaker 1: was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books,
Speaker 1: in many ways, we get to know them all over
Speaker 1: again and have a much better sense of who they
Speaker 1: really were. First of all, thank you for talking to
Speaker 1: me about this book and about Carolyn Bissett, because like
Speaker 1: most people of my generation, I was absolutely fascinated by
Speaker 1: her admired her from afar. She was such an enigma,
Speaker 1: I think to so many of us. Why did you
Speaker 1: decide you wanted to write this book, Elizabeth?
Speaker 3: I decided after the twentieth anniversary of the accident because
Speaker 3: all this information sort of came in my inbox when
Speaker 3: they were alive. I of course knew who they were,
Speaker 3: but I only saw them on newsstands, you know, or
Speaker 3: in the Delhi and I didn't really read that much
Speaker 3: about them at the time. It's just a different culture
Speaker 3: now and the media is very different. So I was
Speaker 3: getting stories in my inbox, and I began to read,
Speaker 3: and I noticed a huge discrepancy between the way that
Speaker 3: people who knew her spoke about her and the way
Speaker 3: certain tabloids spoke about her. And the more I read,
Speaker 3: the more I noticed it, and then I felt compelled
Speaker 3: to sort of change the narrative. For example, Rose Marie
Speaker 3: trenzia book Fairytale Interrupted, and then Carol Radzewill's book What Remains,
Speaker 3: both incredible books really show a different picture than certain
Speaker 3: tabloids that were painting her out to be a harvey
Speaker 3: or a gold digger or you know, and after the fact,
Speaker 3: many years later, sort of trying to lay blame for
Speaker 3: the accident at her feet, which felt wrong.
Speaker 1: Why did you find yourself gravitating toward the contours of
Speaker 1: Carolyn's story and what do you mean exactly by that?
Speaker 3: Let's see, I think the contours that drew me to
Speaker 3: it were I was very interested in someone, especially in
Speaker 3: an age where we're so saturated by pictures of people
Speaker 3: and putting up their platform. I was very interested in
Speaker 3: somebody who was not interested in fame. In fact, she
Speaker 3: saw it as sort of the thief of joy, and
Speaker 3: that restraint was very interesting and actually attractive. I think
Speaker 3: we're at a very interesting crux in society where I
Speaker 3: hope that we are starting to realize that a little
Speaker 3: bit of the internet's sort of toxic herd mentality can
Speaker 3: start to change a bit, and we're beginning to understand
Speaker 3: that things aren't exactly the way they seem from the outside,
Speaker 3: and everybody has their own battle, and whether we can
Speaker 3: see it visually or not, it's there, and I hope
Speaker 3: this can represent a little bit of a change in
Speaker 3: the way that we treat people in the public eye.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the process, because you did extensive reporting, Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: you talked to so many people. Tell me who you
Speaker 1: reached out too, if you spoke with and were there
Speaker 1: people who did not want to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Yes, there were. It was a long process and it
Speaker 3: took a lot of time. Some people ended up speaking
Speaker 3: to me sort of after getting to know me a
Speaker 3: bit and realizing the types of questions that I was asking,
Speaker 3: and then when that was the moment I believe they
Speaker 3: realized I was looking for the contours of her story.
Speaker 3: I was looking to understand a human being that held
Speaker 3: back quite a bit. There were eventually, thank goodness, a
Speaker 3: lot of people who really wanted to participate in studying
Speaker 3: the record straight and showing what a compassion based person
Speaker 3: she was. She was a caretaker. And the ones who
Speaker 3: did didn't decide to speak. I actually respect that too.
Speaker 3: I mean, they want to protect the fact that they
Speaker 3: asked them to not speak to people about their private
Speaker 3: lives when they were alive, and I find it beautiful
Speaker 3: that people want to honor that. But I also equally
Speaker 3: find it beautiful that they At this point, it's about
Speaker 3: legacy and we want to change it. We don't want
Speaker 3: it to let it stand that she was some heartbee
Speaker 3: who made their You know, it's her fault that the
Speaker 3: plane took off late because she was getting a pedicure
Speaker 3: for three hours. You know, these kind of fallacies.
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about that day
Speaker 1: in a moment, but first I want to go back
Speaker 1: to the nineties when they were at the white hot
Speaker 1: epicenter of popular culture. I don't think there were two
Speaker 1: more famous people back then then. John F. Kennedy Junior
Speaker 1: and Carolyn Bissett. Take us back and describe to someone
Speaker 1: who perhaps wasn't around then, what their lives were like,
Speaker 1: and how they occupied such a huge role in the
Speaker 1: media landscape.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think they were one of the first celebrities
Speaker 3: who were sort of chased in that and that kind
Speaker 3: of way. In the nineteen nineties, John had just sort
Speaker 3: of come into age, and it was a sport and
Speaker 3: a pastime to have JFK. Junior sightings around New York City.
Speaker 3: He really was. You know, everybody would talk about it. Oh,
Speaker 3: John was here, John was there.
Speaker 1: I saw him running in the park. I saw him
Speaker 1: kicking a soccer ball without his shirt. I mean part
Speaker 1: of the deal was I mean, if I had to
Speaker 1: be brutally Frank is just he was so handsome. He
Speaker 1: was just a beautiful man.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, obviously he was. I the one of
Speaker 3: the few times I saw him, he was rollerblading up
Speaker 3: Columbus Avenue and as we know, columb heads down and
Speaker 3: you get a shirt off, and was holding a pizza
Speaker 3: box above his head. Everybody on the street steps and
Speaker 3: was like, what was that? What was it? And then
Speaker 3: you realize later, Oh, it was JFK. Junior. And you know, yes,
Speaker 3: obviously looks very different than most people. But I think
Speaker 3: one of the things about him is that he was
Speaker 3: gracious and kind and took that attention with such grace.
Speaker 3: He learned from the best his mother, right, and he
Speaker 3: kind of learned from osmosis. There unfortunately, was not a
Speaker 3: handbook that he could hand to Carolyn to learn how
Speaker 3: to take that, you know, attention in stride. But also
Speaker 3: I think it's important to keep in mind that there
Speaker 3: was so much surrounding John that the attention going to
Speaker 3: her was maybe sort of a mother in law mentality
Speaker 3: or you know, what do you mean, who was this woman?
Speaker 3: Why is she the one white her? So then you
Speaker 3: you know, then the media started to sort of pick
Speaker 3: her apart and buy her looks and where she was from,
Speaker 3: what her career was. There were even comments that, you know,
Speaker 3: Calvin Klein pr wasn't proper enough for Kennedy wife, and.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a serious enough job, correct, right.
Speaker 3: And the thing was is, you know, they seemed to,
Speaker 3: according to friends, fallen in love because they were both
Speaker 3: combastionion based people and they liked to laugh a lot together.
Speaker 3: They were devoted to their family and friends, and I
Speaker 3: you know, and but when he started dating her, a
Speaker 3: lot of that attention went on to her too, and
Speaker 3: even more so after they were married. I don't think
Speaker 3: there was any way that anyone could have had any
Speaker 3: idea exactly what that was going to be like.
Speaker 1: After this quick break, Elizabeth takes us back to the
Speaker 1: moment met Carolyn and John met. If you want to
Speaker 1: get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news
Speaker 1: and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture,
Speaker 1: sign up for our daily newsletter wake Up Call by
Speaker 1: going to Katiecouric dot com. Now more with author Elizabeth Beller,
Speaker 1: tell us about how they first met and if it
Speaker 1: was an immediate attraction. Take us back to that moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, nineteen ninety two and John was coming in to
Speaker 3: look at some suits, and they kind of decided Carolyn
Speaker 3: would be the best person at Calvin Kleine to show
Speaker 3: him the suits. She was probably the most effervescent, but
Speaker 3: also the least likely to be intimidated by celebrity. Celebrity
Speaker 3: was not high on her her list, or fame was
Speaker 3: not high on her list. I know she wanted to
Speaker 3: do something important with her life and meaningful, but she
Speaker 3: was not focused on those kinds of things, so she
Speaker 3: was unfazed by celebrities. Who Cape men. So they immediately
Speaker 3: hit it off and then there was about two years
Speaker 3: of back and forth and back and forth. You know,
Speaker 3: they were very young at the time.
Speaker 1: How old were they.
Speaker 3: I think she was twenty six and he must have
Speaker 3: been almost thirty two, my math, and but he was
Speaker 3: very He was in a state of fux. He was
Speaker 3: working in the DA's office still in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 3: I understand coming to the understanding that he did not
Speaker 3: want to be a lawyer and figuring out what was next,
Speaker 3: and George was just an idea. Slowly, it was more
Speaker 3: so that he was working on it. And by the
Speaker 3: time I think he felt settled into what he knew
Speaker 3: he was going to do, because, let's face it, what
Speaker 3: he going to do was a big burden for him.
Speaker 3: He had to do with that last name. There was
Speaker 3: an enormous pressure for him to do something big and
Speaker 3: to make it stand out. And turns out George was
Speaker 3: quite precient because culture and politics do go hand in
Speaker 3: hand today. But it took him a while to get
Speaker 3: settled in that, and I think he needed to feel
Speaker 3: that he knew what his trajectory was going to be
Speaker 3: before he settled down. And by then Jackie got sick,
Speaker 3: and unfortunately he did not get to introduce Carolyn and Jackie,
Speaker 3: which he told several friends that was one of his
Speaker 3: biggest regrets.
Speaker 1: Do you think he would have gone into public service ultimately.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, he told several friends. And he also he
Speaker 3: was going to run for senator, and then when Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 3: they were friendly with the Clinton family. When Hillary Clinton
Speaker 3: went into that senatorial race, he sort of backed out,
Speaker 3: but then he started to eye governorship. It was definitely
Speaker 3: in the plan, and one of the things that he
Speaker 3: was working on. One of the many weights they had
Speaker 3: was that, you know, George, it initially did very well,
Speaker 3: and then, like a lot of magazines, it takes quite
Speaker 3: some time to make money financially, and he was under
Speaker 3: a lot of financial burden with that. And it was
Speaker 3: David Becker who was the head of Hush at Philipacci
Speaker 3: at the time, and they would trot John out for dinners,
Speaker 3: for bringing in advertising money and lunches and appearances, and
Speaker 3: it turned out they weren't one hundred percent sure that
Speaker 3: money was going into George. So it was a very
Speaker 3: tricky time.
Speaker 1: I don't want John's memory to overshadow Carolyn's because after all,
Speaker 1: this is a book about her life. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about her childhood, about her family life, about
Speaker 1: going to Boston University. Just give us a thumbnail sketch
Speaker 1: of who this young woman was.
Speaker 3: Yes, so she was born in White Plains and she
Speaker 3: lived there until she was eleven. A lot of that
Speaker 3: time was with her single mother and her two older sisters,
Speaker 3: who were twins. Her mother was a powerhouse, and actually
Speaker 3: all three girls were too. They took her example to heart,
Speaker 3: and she not only taught them to work hard, but
Speaker 3: she taught them a lot about empathy and not leaving
Speaker 3: people behind. And that was one of the things that
Speaker 3: prompted me to want to write this book, that she
Speaker 3: really was a caretaker, very compassion based. If someone had,
Speaker 3: you know, an issue. In third grade, a friend was
Speaker 3: getting bullied, she you know, put this person under her
Speaker 3: wing and took care of them. In fifth grade, there
Speaker 3: was a boy whose mother had died, and children can
Speaker 3: sometimes not be quite sympathetic or and they you know,
Speaker 3: were saying, you know, oh, your mom died, and Carolyn
Speaker 3: was the one to come to him and say no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: don't listen to them. They don't really know what they're
Speaker 3: talking about and comforted him, took him under her wing.
Speaker 3: That this was behavior that she always had her mother's family.
Speaker 3: Her mother was a first generation Italian American. Her grandfather
Speaker 3: came from Italy, a very strong work ethic. I like
Speaker 3: to think it has to do with her impeccable eye
Speaker 3: and fashion and style as well. She did have some
Speaker 3: times where she felt like her father was not around enough.
Speaker 3: But one of the beautiful things was later on in
Speaker 3: her life and even at the encouragement of John, that
Speaker 3: they had a reprochement. And it was lovely because she
Speaker 3: began to understood more that it wasn't that her father
Speaker 3: didn't want to be there, but if you're living apart,
Speaker 3: and it was the seventies and his work took him
Speaker 3: away quite often, and then kids get caught up in
Speaker 3: their lives and it was more about circumstances. But were
Speaker 3: they divorced, Yes, the parents divorced when Caroline nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 3: They divorced and Carolyn's mother, Anne Freeman, who was a
Speaker 3: teacher beloved by her students by the way, remarried an
Speaker 3: orthopedic surgeon and then they relocated to Greenwich, Connecticut. So
Speaker 3: people often like to say she's from an affluent background.
Speaker 3: She was more from a middle class background, but with
Speaker 3: a very strong work ethic and highly intelligent and empathetic people.
Speaker 3: I like to put it that way, and I think
Speaker 3: that was a lot of her appeal for John.
Speaker 1: She went on to Boston University. Tell us about her
Speaker 1: college years and how she was shaped by them.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. I just met someone the other
Speaker 3: day who went to college with her that I didn't
Speaker 3: get a chance to speak to for the book. They
Speaker 3: all spoke about how down to earth she was. That
Speaker 3: kindness was definitely there. Taking care of her roommate lost
Speaker 3: her mother, she sat down next to her on the
Speaker 3: couch and just, you know, held her hand in a
Speaker 3: way that is unusual for someone at that age. She
Speaker 3: studied education, which is what her mother studied, and she
Speaker 3: adored children, absolutely adored them, and had an excellent way
Speaker 3: with them. They often immediately felt comfortable in her presence.
Speaker 3: But a lot of her classmates noted that she was
Speaker 3: very down to earth. Most of the time. She was
Speaker 3: in sweats or you know, scrambled her hair on top
Speaker 3: of her head. She was not a fashion plate at
Speaker 3: the time. She was buried down to Earth and from
Speaker 3: Boston University. She was getting out of a cab at
Speaker 3: Chestnut Hill Mall and she was spotted by a Calvin
Speaker 3: Klein regional representative who said, hey, you you to come
Speaker 3: and work in this store. So, I you know, she definitely,
Speaker 3: you know, and a fashion icon, an impeccable eye. But
Speaker 3: I don't think that was what she had always planned
Speaker 3: to do with her life. And I think her values
Speaker 3: were often comse elsewhere.
Speaker 1: So you think she wanted to be a teacher like
Speaker 1: her mom, ideally until the fates intervened, and so the
Speaker 1: faiths intervened.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think I think she did. You know, she
Speaker 3: got a degree in education. There's an adorable story in
Speaker 3: the book about she and another woman student teaching and
Speaker 3: it's Boston and December and they've got to get three
Speaker 3: year olds outside and then back inside without tears. So
Speaker 3: they duct taped there were going to just duct tape
Speaker 3: these little kittens to their mittens, you know, the cop
Speaker 3: to the mittens, and then just kind of cut them
Speaker 3: off when they come back in. She just loved and
Speaker 3: one of the things that she was thinking about doing
Speaker 3: before the accident, she was really thinking about getting back
Speaker 3: into teaching in any way that she could to work
Speaker 3: with underserved communities. It was important to her, and so
Speaker 3: she needed time. Though. She needed time to figure out
Speaker 3: how what exactly that would be and exactly how it
Speaker 3: would look. Because they had so many eyes on them,
Speaker 3: she felt like she needed to have everything locked and
Speaker 3: loaded because she knew that if she didn't the way
Speaker 3: the tabloids had been that she would get torn apart
Speaker 3: for it. So she was being careful about her next steps.
Speaker 3: But they had not even been married three years. So
Speaker 3: when we think about all the iterations and career changes
Speaker 3: that we've all had over the many years, you know,
Speaker 3: it would have been lovely to be able to see
Speaker 3: what she would have done. I think it would have
Speaker 3: made a difference.
Speaker 1: You know, when I look back at photos of that
Speaker 1: time when she is dating and then married to John,
Speaker 1: I think how terrifying and borderline miserable it must have
Speaker 1: been to just be hunted like that everywhere you went.
Speaker 1: They couldn't leave their apartment. I think they had a
Speaker 1: place in Tribeca, and every time they left their home
Speaker 1: or walked down the street, I mean, it was just
Speaker 1: these vultures descending on them. And I'm sure and by
Speaker 1: the way, some of the people, the paparazzo's I guess
Speaker 1: that's the plural, are actually fine and nice people. This
Speaker 1: is how they make a living. But it's just so
Speaker 1: constant and so intrusive. How did she feel about being
Speaker 1: on display? Pretty much twenty four to seven, or whenever
Speaker 1: she ventured out in public, she.
Speaker 3: Was terrified, absolutely terrified. And they treated her differently if
Speaker 3: she was when she was with John and if she
Speaker 3: was on her own. If John was around, it was
Speaker 3: a little bit more like, Hi, how are you guys doing?
Speaker 3: Can you give us a smile? You know, keeping a
Speaker 3: respectful distance. If she was on her own, they would
Speaker 3: often close in and yell out epithets to try to
Speaker 3: get a face of unhappiness that they could then add
Speaker 3: a story of, you know, trouble in the marriage, you know,
Speaker 3: create that narrative. She became further and further frightened. It
Speaker 3: was terrible. I mean, I'm hoping that with this book
Speaker 3: that the difference between how someone was painted and who had,
Speaker 3: you know, had to live in the public eye. The
Speaker 3: difference between how they were painted and the reality is
Speaker 3: something that we can all start to maybe keep in
Speaker 3: our minds when we sort of that toxic herd mentality
Speaker 3: that we have towards people in the public eye. You know,
Speaker 3: everyone free to comment, and it's you know, let's elevate
Speaker 3: a little bit and keep in mind that these are
Speaker 3: human beings trying to live a real life, and we
Speaker 3: have an opportunity now. I think, you know, everyone's saturated
Speaker 3: with images. People feel obligated to have a platform by
Speaker 3: putting pictures of themselves out there. Maybe it's I'm hoping
Speaker 3: the book sort of shows a way that people can
Speaker 3: empathize a little bit more understand that people never no
Speaker 3: one ever knows exactly how something is going to go.
Speaker 3: Carolyn couldn't have known that this would have been her life.
Speaker 3: She knew that she would be in the public eye.
Speaker 3: She had no idea she could walk out her front door.
Speaker 3: And I just think, be a little gentler and kinder
Speaker 3: with one another, and just know that we, even if
Speaker 3: it may look like we have absolutely everything, that everyone's
Speaker 3: got a battle.
Speaker 1: Do you think John prepared her well enough. This reminds
Speaker 1: me a little bit of Megan Markle and Prince Harry.
Speaker 1: You know, somebody entering this public sphere and having a
Speaker 1: certain appreciation for what was to come, but not truly
Speaker 1: experiencing or understanding the level of intensity that takes place.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if he helped her enough acclimate to
Speaker 1: this new normal they experienced.
Speaker 3: Let's see. Well, you know, the funny thing is is
Speaker 3: it ramped up after they got married, and that was
Speaker 3: exactly when they were expecting it to settle down. There
Speaker 3: was interest and it was incoming, but once they got married,
Speaker 3: it went into overdrive. And I really don't think there
Speaker 3: was any way to anticipate that it would be exactly
Speaker 3: like that. And I think John did try to sort
Speaker 3: of teach her. He was a gracious, kind man.
Speaker 1: And it's something he was so used to because he
Speaker 1: had grown up with it.
Speaker 3: You'd grown up with it and learned by watching from
Speaker 3: the time that he was a young toddler, right, and
Speaker 3: the fact that the public knew him from the time
Speaker 3: he was a young toddler also made the public and
Speaker 3: the media have a different attitude towards him than a
Speaker 3: female coming in and being seen as an intertloper. And
Speaker 3: as we know, you know, marrying into any family can
Speaker 3: be you know, can bring out the mother in law
Speaker 3: mentality as who is this person? Are they good enough,
Speaker 3: and when you marry into a very large public family
Speaker 3: and that way, that that doubles. And it seems like misogynist, classist,
Speaker 3: and racist tropes can be thrown at these women because
Speaker 3: it's just too easy when they're coming in from the outside.
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, there is no handbook to hand over to
Speaker 3: someone because you just don't know exactly what the attention
Speaker 3: is going to be.
Speaker 1: Or what they're going going to write, or how you're
Speaker 1: going to be received, or the tricks of the trade,
Speaker 1: as you said, getting her to scal or look sad
Speaker 1: so good accompany some bs story.
Speaker 3: Yes, oh exactly, over and over, and you know who
Speaker 3: isn't going to look afraid and angry if you're being
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to use the word, if you're someone shouting
Speaker 3: out to you that you're a whore and a gold
Speaker 3: digger when you're just trying to go to the grocery store.
Speaker 3: There was an incident where she fell on the steps
Speaker 3: and groceries went everywhere, and no one helped her. No
Speaker 3: one tried to help her gather her groceries or help
Speaker 3: her up. They just got closer and took more pictures.
Speaker 3: And I just think there's there's no way to be
Speaker 3: prepared for that, even if you did have a handbook.
Speaker 3: That hurts and you see that they're treating John one
Speaker 3: way and you another, and it made her frightened, and
Speaker 3: it made her reclusive. That worsened they treated her. You know,
Speaker 3: it became a little bit of a vicious circle. I
Speaker 3: do feel like and hope that this was the case.
Speaker 3: Is she was beginning to work through a lot of that.
Speaker 3: Towards the end. She very one of the very few
Speaker 3: times that she spoke to any publication. She spoke to
Speaker 3: Women's Wear Daily in March of ninety nine, explaining that
Speaker 3: she no longer read about herself and felt that not
Speaker 3: only was she a happier person because of that, but
Speaker 3: maybe a better person because of that.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that she was terrified with the onslaught of attention,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious how that impacted their marriage. Were they
Speaker 1: happily married? From what you were able to glean.
Speaker 3: I think that they they loved each other very much.
Speaker 3: I mean from what I was able to glean. I
Speaker 3: was not there, and this is talking to people after
Speaker 3: the fact. I think there was no doubt that they
Speaker 3: really loved one another. They enjoyed time together they laughed
Speaker 3: a lot together. That was one of the main things.
Speaker 3: Is their sense of humor was very in accord and
Speaker 3: they valued their friends, They were devoted to their family.
Speaker 3: All of these things brought them together. Now, when something
Speaker 3: like public and media attention intrudes on a private life,
Speaker 3: it becomes very difficult. We've seen over and over many
Speaker 3: marriages sort of implode under that kind of pressure. I
Speaker 3: spoke with Karl Radziwill once, and you know, she explained
Speaker 3: to me that even old friends might call you and say, oh,
Speaker 3: my gosh, I read this. Is that true? And you say, no,
Speaker 3: of course it's not true that of course.
Speaker 1: That didn't happen.
Speaker 3: But then that little thing becomes part of the narrative
Speaker 3: in your life and your marriage, but also in navigating
Speaker 3: those friendships and those other relationships if they're worried about
Speaker 3: you because they read something absolutely cuckoo.
Speaker 1: And people, I think can't delineate, you know, fact from fiction.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've experienced this in a very small way
Speaker 1: in my life and career, and it can be very destabilizing.
Speaker 1: And of course you multiply that a million times for
Speaker 1: poor Carolyn Beset, and you think, gosh, it just really
Speaker 1: can have the impact of just really screwing you up
Speaker 1: and not knowing who you can trust, who's talking to
Speaker 1: the press, feeling insecure. You know, it's just it's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff to manage.
Speaker 3: It's so much to manage, and it really does intrude
Speaker 3: And I think one of the hard things for them
Speaker 3: was the difference in the ways that they wanted to
Speaker 3: handle that. And of course they're different people. They're different
Speaker 3: people from different backgrounds, coming at it with a different
Speaker 3: set of tools. But also John is used to it
Speaker 3: and he just kind of had to learn to, you know,
Speaker 3: you just wave and move on. And I think because
Speaker 3: he was so busy with his magazine and under his
Speaker 3: own pressure, he probably got frustrated with the fact that
Speaker 3: it was taking her a while. But then when we
Speaker 3: look at it from her point of view, it was
Speaker 3: a very different experience for her in many different ways,
Speaker 3: and it was destabilizing. She was hurt by what they
Speaker 3: were saying. I don't think she expected them to portray
Speaker 3: her as a heartbeat or a gold digger, which is
Speaker 3: a word that I really despise, gold digger. And I'd
Speaker 3: like to point out that it seems like if a
Speaker 3: woman is you know gold Digger one oh one is
Speaker 3: have a baby right away right because that feels like
Speaker 3: some kind of something, and her reluctance to have a
Speaker 3: child until things settled down more it shows what her
Speaker 3: values are there. She wanted the marriage like in a good,
Speaker 3: stable place, and she wanted it to be a situation
Speaker 3: where a child wouldn't be traumatized by walking out and
Speaker 3: having their picture taken the moment they stepped out their
Speaker 3: front door.
Speaker 1: Did they ever think about leaving New York? I feel
Speaker 1: like if they hadn't been in the epicenter of New
Speaker 1: York City and you know, Hipsterville, they might have been
Speaker 1: able to enjoy a little more privacy. Did they think
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 3: I think that was one of the things that they
Speaker 3: were talking about. I don't you know. I only heard
Speaker 3: that from a couple of friends. But it seems very
Speaker 3: logical that they would have been searching for another property
Speaker 3: where they could have the apartment in the city but
Speaker 3: also have another home to have more of a base
Speaker 3: for raising children. And I do think they were thinking
Speaker 3: about that. But John had to make sure that George
Speaker 3: was solvent before he had moved on to the next thing,
Speaker 3: and in fact, he was touching base with a close
Speaker 3: friend about how to turn it into more of an
Speaker 3: internet magazine, which what it was new at the time,
Speaker 3: which is also interesting because it's like Carolyn was almost
Speaker 3: that first internet celebrity that was hounded in an Internet way,
Speaker 3: and I think it was just very frightening for her.
Speaker 3: And I think that if you know, there were issues,
Speaker 3: you know, as in every married couple, I think the
Speaker 3: first couple of years of marriage or the hardest, it's
Speaker 3: not about the toothbrush and you know, it's it's about
Speaker 3: what ways are you going to grow? And what great
Speaker 3: ways are you going to help me grow? And what
Speaker 3: ways are we going to have to also learn to
Speaker 3: accept and tolerate and be patient with because nobody grows
Speaker 3: at light speed. But I really do think they loved
Speaker 3: each other. I'd like to think that they would have
Speaker 3: made it. I do think the fact that he very
Speaker 3: much wanted her to accompany him to Rory Kennedy's wedding
Speaker 3: and the fact that she did make the decision to
Speaker 3: go ahead and do it, I think that shows you know,
Speaker 3: that they were still committed. But it takes a huge toll,
Speaker 3: as you know, right it's being in the public eye is,
Speaker 3: and it was something that she never she never wanted
Speaker 3: when she hesitated with his engagement, with his proposal, it
Speaker 3: was about that. It was about, you know, she hadn't
Speaker 3: been interested in a public life and was she willing
Speaker 3: to take it on to be with him.
Speaker 1: July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine, was the day that that
Speaker 1: plane went down off Martha's vineyard. And I think everyone
Speaker 1: remembers Elizabeth where they were when they heard the news.
Speaker 1: And I remember my sister Emily, who was dealing with
Speaker 1: cancer at the time, calling me. It was a Saturday
Speaker 1: morning and I think it must have been like ten
Speaker 1: thirty or eleven, and she called me and said, did
Speaker 1: you hear about John Kennedy's plane? And I wondered if
Speaker 1: you could just take us back to that day because
Speaker 1: there have been a lot of urban legends about what happened.
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I've heard the stories about
Speaker 1: she needed a manicure, she was late, and all these things.
Speaker 1: So I would love you to put some of those
Speaker 1: stories to rest. What did you discover had happened that day?
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, And that was part of why
Speaker 3: I wrote the book. I wanted to put some of
Speaker 3: those stories to rest when we lose someone, and everybody
Speaker 3: felt like they knew John, and in a way, Carolyn,
Speaker 3: when we lose someone, people often want to assign blame.
Speaker 3: It's not our best feature as human beings, but it's
Speaker 3: a natural one. John was working that day, Carolyn, who,
Speaker 3: like any woman, who did decide, oh, yes, I am
Speaker 3: going to go to this wedding, and it's a summer wedding.
Speaker 3: She did go get a pedicure, but she was not
Speaker 3: there for any elongated amount of time, changing the shade
Speaker 3: of tonail color three times. And in fact, the gentleman
Speaker 3: who initially said he saw her getting the pedicure did
Speaker 3: come back later and said I saw her leaving this
Speaker 3: salon no later than five o'clock. And then they were
Speaker 3: all in cars at the same time heading to the airport.
Speaker 3: So there became and this was years after. There became
Speaker 3: a lot of books, some written by men that really
Speaker 3: tried to place the blame on her and say it
Speaker 3: was her fault that they were late. That's just not
Speaker 3: the case. They were all in a car at the
Speaker 3: same time headed to the airport. It was a sticky,
Speaker 3: hot New York City Friday. As we know, they can
Speaker 3: be and somehow sometimes it feels like the city just
Speaker 3: doesn't want to let you leave it bumper to bumper traffic.
Speaker 3: And then the other thing about when people try to
Speaker 3: say John was careless or that he flew illegally, that's
Speaker 3: not the case either. He was not careless with his wife.
Speaker 3: He flew legally for visual flight rules that night. Visual
Speaker 3: flight rules require five to ten miles of visibility, and
Speaker 3: he checked the weather report in the afternoon before he
Speaker 3: went to the airport. He checked it again and it
Speaker 3: said that there was that much visibility. Unfortunately, that can
Speaker 3: change very quickly over those islands. But the what I
Speaker 3: focus on is the fact that the two of them
Speaker 3: were going to this together. And you know, accidents are
Speaker 3: called accidents for a reason. That's a couple. You know,
Speaker 3: it takes several things going wrong, and it was, you know,
Speaker 3: it was devastating and sad for everyone. People thought, you know,
Speaker 3: people felt they'd known John since he was a toddler.
Speaker 3: It was. It was quite sad. I kind of at
Speaker 3: that moment. I remember I was working at Sethy's at
Speaker 3: the time, and I was going in on a Saturday,
Speaker 3: and I don't remember what it was for, but I
Speaker 3: was going in, saw the news there, and from there
Speaker 3: I just kind of pulled away. I didn't want to
Speaker 3: watch it anymore. And I didn't really look at the
Speaker 3: story again until twenty nineteen, on the twenty eth Ani versary,
Speaker 3: when the news had changed so much, and it's coming
Speaker 3: in my inbox instead of something that I would have
Speaker 3: had to seek out by picking up a magazine and reading.
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't watch TV at the time, and
Speaker 3: so it was very interesting to sort of read all
Speaker 3: of that many years later, and, like I said, noticed
Speaker 3: that discrepancy and how Carolyn was portrayed between those who
Speaker 3: knew her and what the tabloids wanted to make out
Speaker 3: and even years after their deaths, how they wanted to
Speaker 3: sort of lay blame at her feet.
Speaker 1: When we come back, there was a third person on
Speaker 1: the plane with John and Carolyn that fateful night. Carolyn's
Speaker 1: sister Lauren will remember her. Right after this, we're back
Speaker 1: now with Elizabeth Beller, author of Once Upon a Time.
Speaker 1: One person you haven't mentioned is Carolyn's sister Lauren, who
Speaker 1: was on that plane, and I feel like she is
Speaker 1: the forgotten victim of all this. I often thought about
Speaker 1: their mom and the heartache and tragedy of losing two
Speaker 1: of your daughters in an instant and I know, I
Speaker 1: guess Lauren's twin is still alive, and gosh, were you
Speaker 1: able to talk to anyone who knew Carolyn and Lauren's mom.
Speaker 3: I did end up speaking with Carolyn's family on her
Speaker 3: father's side, not her surviving sister, not her surviving sister,
Speaker 3: you know, I out of respect, I didn't even reach
Speaker 3: out to her surviving sister. I did write a handwritten
Speaker 3: letter to her mother and both her father, I guess
Speaker 3: her mother and stepfather and her biological father at the
Speaker 3: very beginning, letting them know that I was writing the book,
Speaker 3: who I was, sort of what my take was, and
Speaker 3: if they had any questions about me or the book,
Speaker 3: to please feel free to reach out. I did not
Speaker 3: hear from them, and I completely expected that and understood that, Yes, Lauren,
Speaker 3: all of these girls were powerhouses like their mother, highly intelligent,
Speaker 3: highly motivated. One of the reasons Lauren came back to
Speaker 3: the United States from Hong Kong, who's worked for Morgan Stanley,
Speaker 3: high powered finance executive. But one of the reasons she
Speaker 3: came back was to be with Carolyn. When Carolyn was
Speaker 3: going through this very difficult time, not in a sort
Speaker 3: of i'll sit next to you every moment and hold
Speaker 3: your handway, but to be there for her and spend
Speaker 3: time with her. And I think that helped Carolyn a lot.
Speaker 3: And it's heartbreaking that these girls who were taught to
Speaker 3: never leave anyone behind and be caretaking. It's very heartbreaking
Speaker 3: to think that that's part of what Lauren was doing
Speaker 3: when she was also taken, and part of the reason
Speaker 3: that I wasn't really paying attention that I looked away
Speaker 3: from the story on July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine. I
Speaker 3: looked away and couldn't. It was just the heartbreak of
Speaker 3: thinking about their family, what became of Carolyn's parents, well,
Speaker 3: her mother and stepfather. But I don't know how you
Speaker 3: get asked that. It's heartbreaking. If I had gotten a
Speaker 3: note back from any one of the family members saying
Speaker 3: please don't do this, I would have stopped. But they
Speaker 3: are still alive, and I did speak with, like I said,
Speaker 3: her paternal uncle and aunt and nephew. And it's a
Speaker 3: heartbreaking moment, very heartbreaking moment, and you know that day itself.
Speaker 3: I don't have too much to comment on other than also,
Speaker 3: you know, saddened and shocked. But then I felt like
Speaker 3: I needed to look away immediately because how large it
Speaker 3: was in the media. Could not have it must have
Speaker 3: made mourning them even harder.
Speaker 1: How would you describe the Carolyn you got to know
Speaker 1: during the process of writing this book. You said she
Speaker 1: was compassionate, she was funny. It sounds like she was
Speaker 1: down to earth. That quality continued, but she I think
Speaker 1: her physicality I think worked against those qualities because she
Speaker 1: was so uniquely beautiful and had so much style that
Speaker 1: I think for some people they might have perceived that
Speaker 1: as haughty or off putting or you know, superior. And
Speaker 1: I'm just curious because I would then like to ask
Speaker 1: you about her style, because I know you write a
Speaker 1: lot about that, and you talk about the fashion she
Speaker 1: was wearing, et cetera. But tell us about who she
Speaker 1: really was.
Speaker 3: She was very funny and fun loving. Like I said,
Speaker 3: a lot of her relationship with John was based on
Speaker 3: laughing together in merciless teasing and laughter and making a joke,
Speaker 3: even when it was tabloid interests. You know, there was
Speaker 3: some tabloid saying, oh, she's jealous. You know, John was
Speaker 3: seen with so and so Carolyn, as a joke, sent
Speaker 3: a bunch of posters into George with a pretend note
Speaker 3: saying from Claudia Schiffer, I love you, you know, and
Speaker 3: she ha ha ha. She thought it was funny, and
Speaker 3: John could be heard laughing in his office, but she
Speaker 3: was joyful, and so that humor went with it, but
Speaker 3: that sense of joy. One of her friends commented that
Speaker 3: every day, you know, sort of before she got very frightened,
Speaker 3: Carolyn looked at life with this, what great thing? What
Speaker 3: fun thing is going to happen today? What can we
Speaker 3: make happen? And she commented that that was a trait
Speaker 3: that Carolyn held on to for a very long time.
Speaker 3: And that's unusual, right, It's unusual because life kind of
Speaker 3: but she did manage to hold on to it. She
Speaker 3: did manage to still laugh and joke when she was
Speaker 3: comfortable and in private with friends and remain that caring
Speaker 3: person who spent a week helping someone out with a problem.
Speaker 3: Or when John's cousin, Anthony Radziwill was sick, going to
Speaker 3: the hospital with Anthony and Carol all the time and
Speaker 3: sticking a picture of Friday up on the wall, their
Speaker 3: dog Friday, you know, here, this will cheer you up,
Speaker 3: you know, half leaving it and half being facetious, but
Speaker 3: keeping it light and honestly, I think that is something
Speaker 3: that comes out in the photographs, and that's part of
Speaker 3: why we are so entranced with these photos of her.
Speaker 3: And when we talk about the style, obviously she had
Speaker 3: an impeccable eye. I think she stressed very differently in
Speaker 3: private than she did in public. It was almost as
Speaker 3: if she put on a uniform of all black, hoping,
Speaker 3: you know, if she's always wearing black, they wouldn't be
Speaker 3: interested in taking the pictures. And one of the things
Speaker 3: Yogi Yamamoto, she was often wearing his pieces when she
Speaker 3: had to do public events. And what was interesting is
Speaker 3: he had mentioned at an earlier time that his work
Speaker 3: was almost like armor for women to keep them safe,
Speaker 3: and I found that very interesting. I don't know if
Speaker 3: Carolyn had ever heard that quote, but I think maybe
Speaker 3: she sensed that that's what that clothing was like and
Speaker 3: felt like she needed that armor, which is it's unfortunate,
Speaker 3: and I really do hope that, you know, as a
Speaker 3: culture and as a public and in media, we can
Speaker 3: take that and like learn from it and not make
Speaker 3: people who are in the public eye feel like every
Speaker 3: second is scrutinized and tear them apart unthinkingly. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 3: as someone is hurting someone, yes we call attention to
Speaker 3: that and ask them to stop. But if someone's going
Speaker 3: about their day, you know that we really do need
Speaker 3: to keep in mind that everyone has a battle something
Speaker 3: that is very hard for them.
Speaker 1: She's having a bit of a renaissance on social media,
Speaker 1: on TikTok, and I think a lot of young women
Speaker 1: are looking at her with fascination about sort of the way,
Speaker 1: you know, her whole look and the choices she made
Speaker 1: and her sense of style. What do you make of
Speaker 1: this renaissance we're seeing on TikTok and other social media
Speaker 1: platforms of Carolyn Bessett, the style like.
Speaker 3: On I think it is about that restraint. We've gone
Speaker 3: through a lot of years where it was about very
Speaker 3: revealing clothes and heavy, heavy makeup, you know, contouring to
Speaker 3: make your face look completely like a completely different shape
Speaker 3: than it actually is. And I think, you know, even
Speaker 3: though Carolyn was you know, she had on the red
Speaker 3: lipstick and her hair might be back tight, she looked
Speaker 3: she had a natural look. And I think in an
Speaker 3: age where we're saturated with images. I think that that
Speaker 3: becomes even more appealing.
Speaker 1: She's a anti Kardashian in a way.
Speaker 3: That's definitely one way to put it. Yes, Like you know,
Speaker 3: the false eyelashes, it's you know, she had advised one
Speaker 3: young woman that she was friends with, you know, just
Speaker 3: push your hair up when it's what put on some
Speaker 3: lip gloss. You know, mascara wasn't really used. It was
Speaker 3: a very natural look, which you know, it's it's very appealing.
Speaker 1: She was a very beautiful, interestingly beautiful woman too. You know,
Speaker 1: she wasn't perfect. She wasn't you know, perfectly symmetrical. You know,
Speaker 1: she had kind of a longer nose, but for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: And I also think she had, you know, a wonderful
Speaker 1: companion and just together, they were an incredibly dashing couple.
Speaker 1: And I think people also were longing for what JFK
Speaker 1: and Jackie represented, just an incredibly good looking couple that
Speaker 1: had an extraordinary sense of stuff, who made you feel
Speaker 1: good looking at them, made.
Speaker 3: You feel good looking at them. You know, the sixties
Speaker 3: seemed to the early sixties felt to be a very
Speaker 3: hopeful time. I think that in the nineties, people people
Speaker 3: were wanting that hope as well. They were an entrancing
Speaker 3: couple to look at. And I do love that Carolyn
Speaker 3: was unusual looking. I think it adds to her beauty.
Speaker 3: It's sort of like an like I mean, like a
Speaker 3: Linda evangelistaway rights. She's not your cookie cutter either, but
Speaker 3: all the more beautiful for it. And one of the
Speaker 3: friends of Carolyn's from Greenwich commented on that Carolyn was
Speaker 3: just striking and beautiful, but not in this sort of
Speaker 3: cookie cutter way that a lot. You know, she didn't
Speaker 3: have the winged hair, you know, she or the perms
Speaker 3: that were in the eighties. You know, her hair was
Speaker 3: always sort of like a natural way, and her beauty
Speaker 3: was unusual, and which is often all the more so
Speaker 3: for being unusual.
Speaker 1: How old would John be today? Sixty four? Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 1: And I'm sixty seven, So yeah, it's our generation. And
Speaker 1: I just realized Carolyn, she and I had the same birthday,
Speaker 1: January seventh.
Speaker 3: You're kidding, Oh, yow, interesting, that's great.
Speaker 1: And we both had crushes on her husband.
Speaker 3: A lot of women had crushes on her husband was
Speaker 3: so you know that time did become very hopeful again.
Speaker 3: And you know, there were their deaths, and then for
Speaker 3: our generation, right and then nine to eleven and what
Speaker 3: we were afraid of with y two K. We didn't
Speaker 3: need to fear that it was all going to stop.
Speaker 3: I think we probably needed to fear that we weren't
Speaker 3: prepared to use it properly. And hopefully we're learning more
Speaker 3: and more now, but it just feels like a huge
Speaker 3: change happened after that.
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Once Upon a Time, The
Speaker 1: Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessett Kennedy Elizabeth Feller. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for telling us all about the person we
Speaker 1: thought we knew but really didn't.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having me on and
Speaker 3: forgiving me the opportunity to talk about it even more,
Speaker 3: and that people realize, you know what lovely people and
Speaker 3: compassion based people they both were.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
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