1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well,

2
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: just a couple of months ago, I sat down with

3
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be

4
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 1: his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the

5
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,599
Speaker 1: occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John

6
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 1: and his sister every year. As it happened, we did

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,639
Speaker 1: not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to

8
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,640
Speaker 1: share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK

9
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,160
Speaker 1: Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking

10
00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen

11
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,200
Speaker 1: ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after

12
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't

13
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,479
Speaker 1: believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months

14
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 1: before he.

15
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,640
Speaker 2: Parented for both of them, and I think she was

16
00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 2: deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his serns were

17
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 2: part of our upbringing and some of her own which

18
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 2: were not his, And I think there was a dynamic

19
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,320
Speaker 2: there that was healthy.

20
00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all

21
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary.

22
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,319
Speaker 1: Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior,

23
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,800
Speaker 1: his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing

24
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,120
Speaker 1: piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts.

25
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three,

26
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 1: and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today,

27
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,040
Speaker 1: on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of

28
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,120
Speaker 1: companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors

29
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 1: of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by

30
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,920
Speaker 1: journalist Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy.

31
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection

32
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by

33
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,399
Speaker 1: Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as

34
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 1: well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time,

35
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 1: no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much

36
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 1: about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding

37
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 1: among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it

38
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,959
Speaker 1: seems like many people who knew them are now willing

39
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,679
Speaker 1: to open up and tell some stories about their lives.

40
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: What was it about John and Carolyn that made people

41
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,679
Speaker 1: so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent

42
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,960
Speaker 1: both the past and the future. Was it a combination

43
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 1: of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I

44
00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 1: was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them,

45
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 1: and of course one of the millions of women besotted

46
00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,040
Speaker 1: by John. Seeing that come to a sudden senselessness and

47
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,800
Speaker 1: was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books,

48
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 1: in many ways, we get to know them all over

49
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,839
Speaker 1: again and have a much better sense of who they

50
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 1: really were. First of all, thank you for talking to

51
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 1: me about this book and about Carolyn Bissett, because like

52
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,799
Speaker 1: most people of my generation, I was absolutely fascinated by

53
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 1: her admired her from afar. She was such an enigma,

54
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 1: I think to so many of us. Why did you

55
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: decide you wanted to write this book, Elizabeth?

56
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 3: I decided after the twentieth anniversary of the accident because

57
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 3: all this information sort of came in my inbox when

58
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 3: they were alive. I of course knew who they were,

59
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 3: but I only saw them on newsstands, you know, or

60
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 3: in the Delhi and I didn't really read that much

61
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 3: about them at the time. It's just a different culture

62
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 3: now and the media is very different. So I was

63
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,840
Speaker 3: getting stories in my inbox, and I began to read,

64
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 3: and I noticed a huge discrepancy between the way that

65
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 3: people who knew her spoke about her and the way

66
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,719
Speaker 3: certain tabloids spoke about her. And the more I read,

67
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 3: the more I noticed it, and then I felt compelled

68
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 3: to sort of change the narrative. For example, Rose Marie

69
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 3: trenzia book Fairytale Interrupted, and then Carol Radzewill's book What Remains,

70
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 3: both incredible books really show a different picture than certain

71
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 3: tabloids that were painting her out to be a harvey

72
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 3: or a gold digger or you know, and after the fact,

73
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 3: many years later, sort of trying to lay blame for

74
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 3: the accident at her feet, which felt wrong.

75
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 1: Why did you find yourself gravitating toward the contours of

76
00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,120
Speaker 1: Carolyn's story and what do you mean exactly by that?

77
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,320
Speaker 3: Let's see, I think the contours that drew me to

78
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 3: it were I was very interested in someone, especially in

79
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 3: an age where we're so saturated by pictures of people

80
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,360
Speaker 3: and putting up their platform. I was very interested in

81
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,280
Speaker 3: somebody who was not interested in fame. In fact, she

82
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,839
Speaker 3: saw it as sort of the thief of joy, and

83
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 3: that restraint was very interesting and actually attractive. I think

84
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,719
Speaker 3: we're at a very interesting crux in society where I

85
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 3: hope that we are starting to realize that a little

86
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,920
Speaker 3: bit of the internet's sort of toxic herd mentality can

87
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,800
Speaker 3: start to change a bit, and we're beginning to understand

88
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,840
Speaker 3: that things aren't exactly the way they seem from the outside,

89
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 3: and everybody has their own battle, and whether we can

90
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 3: see it visually or not, it's there, and I hope

91
00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,479
Speaker 3: this can represent a little bit of a change in

92
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,279
Speaker 3: the way that we treat people in the public eye.

93
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 1: Tell me about the process, because you did extensive reporting, Elizabeth,

94
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 1: you talked to so many people. Tell me who you

95
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 1: reached out too, if you spoke with and were there

96
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,600
Speaker 1: people who did not want to talk to you.

97
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 3: Yes, there were. It was a long process and it

98
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 3: took a lot of time. Some people ended up speaking

99
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,359
Speaker 3: to me sort of after getting to know me a

100
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,719
Speaker 3: bit and realizing the types of questions that I was asking,

101
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 3: and then when that was the moment I believe they

102
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,600
Speaker 3: realized I was looking for the contours of her story.

103
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,039
Speaker 3: I was looking to understand a human being that held

104
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 3: back quite a bit. There were eventually, thank goodness, a

105
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 3: lot of people who really wanted to participate in studying

106
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,760
Speaker 3: the record straight and showing what a compassion based person

107
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 3: she was. She was a caretaker. And the ones who

108
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 3: did didn't decide to speak. I actually respect that too.

109
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,839
Speaker 3: I mean, they want to protect the fact that they

110
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 3: asked them to not speak to people about their private

111
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,920
Speaker 3: lives when they were alive, and I find it beautiful

112
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 3: that people want to honor that. But I also equally

113
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 3: find it beautiful that they At this point, it's about

114
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,240
Speaker 3: legacy and we want to change it. We don't want

115
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,640
Speaker 3: it to let it stand that she was some heartbee

116
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 3: who made their You know, it's her fault that the

117
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 3: plane took off late because she was getting a pedicure

118
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 3: for three hours. You know, these kind of fallacies.

119
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about that day

120
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,679
Speaker 1: in a moment, but first I want to go back

121
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: to the nineties when they were at the white hot

122
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: epicenter of popular culture. I don't think there were two

123
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: more famous people back then then. John F. Kennedy Junior

124
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 1: and Carolyn Bissett. Take us back and describe to someone

125
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 1: who perhaps wasn't around then, what their lives were like,

126
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: and how they occupied such a huge role in the

127
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: media landscape.

128
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 3: Yes, I think they were one of the first celebrities

129
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 3: who were sort of chased in that and that kind

130
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,280
Speaker 3: of way. In the nineteen nineties, John had just sort

131
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,040
Speaker 3: of come into age, and it was a sport and

132
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 3: a pastime to have JFK. Junior sightings around New York City.

133
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 3: He really was. You know, everybody would talk about it. Oh,

134
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,840
Speaker 3: John was here, John was there.

135
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 1: I saw him running in the park. I saw him

136
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,920
Speaker 1: kicking a soccer ball without his shirt. I mean part

137
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,320
Speaker 1: of the deal was I mean, if I had to

138
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 1: be brutally Frank is just he was so handsome. He

139
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 1: was just a beautiful man.

140
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, obviously he was. I the one of

141
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 3: the few times I saw him, he was rollerblading up

142
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 3: Columbus Avenue and as we know, columb heads down and

143
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 3: you get a shirt off, and was holding a pizza

144
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,839
Speaker 3: box above his head. Everybody on the street steps and

145
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 3: was like, what was that? What was it? And then

146
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 3: you realize later, Oh, it was JFK. Junior. And you know, yes,

147
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,000
Speaker 3: obviously looks very different than most people. But I think

148
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 3: one of the things about him is that he was

149
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,440
Speaker 3: gracious and kind and took that attention with such grace.

150
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 3: He learned from the best his mother, right, and he

151
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,320
Speaker 3: kind of learned from osmosis. There unfortunately, was not a

152
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 3: handbook that he could hand to Carolyn to learn how

153
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 3: to take that, you know, attention in stride. But also

154
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 3: I think it's important to keep in mind that there

155
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 3: was so much surrounding John that the attention going to

156
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,160
Speaker 3: her was maybe sort of a mother in law mentality

157
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 3: or you know, what do you mean, who was this woman?

158
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 3: Why is she the one white her? So then you

159
00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,960
Speaker 3: you know, then the media started to sort of pick

160
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,760
Speaker 3: her apart and buy her looks and where she was from,

161
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,480
Speaker 3: what her career was. There were even comments that, you know,

162
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 3: Calvin Klein pr wasn't proper enough for Kennedy wife, and.

163
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 1: It wasn't a serious enough job, correct, right.

164
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,599
Speaker 3: And the thing was is, you know, they seemed to,

165
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 3: according to friends, fallen in love because they were both

166
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,080
Speaker 3: combastionion based people and they liked to laugh a lot together.

167
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:40,120
Speaker 3: They were devoted to their family and friends, and I

168
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 3: you know, and but when he started dating her, a

169
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 3: lot of that attention went on to her too, and

170
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 3: even more so after they were married. I don't think

171
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 3: there was any way that anyone could have had any

172
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 3: idea exactly what that was going to be like.

173
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 1: After this quick break, Elizabeth takes us back to the

174
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 1: moment met Carolyn and John met. If you want to

175
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,560
Speaker 1: get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news

176
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 1: and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture,

177
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 1: sign up for our daily newsletter wake Up Call by

178
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: going to Katiecouric dot com. Now more with author Elizabeth Beller,

179
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 1: tell us about how they first met and if it

180
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,960
Speaker 1: was an immediate attraction. Take us back to that moment.

181
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, nineteen ninety two and John was coming in to

182
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 3: look at some suits, and they kind of decided Carolyn

183
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 3: would be the best person at Calvin Kleine to show

184
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,080
Speaker 3: him the suits. She was probably the most effervescent, but

185
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 3: also the least likely to be intimidated by celebrity. Celebrity

186
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 3: was not high on her her list, or fame was

187
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 3: not high on her list. I know she wanted to

188
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,840
Speaker 3: do something important with her life and meaningful, but she

189
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,760
Speaker 3: was not focused on those kinds of things, so she

190
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 3: was unfazed by celebrities. Who Cape men. So they immediately

191
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 3: hit it off and then there was about two years

192
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 3: of back and forth and back and forth. You know,

193
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 3: they were very young at the time.

194
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 1: How old were they.

195
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 3: I think she was twenty six and he must have

196
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:36,360
Speaker 3: been almost thirty two, my math, and but he was

197
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 3: very He was in a state of fux. He was

198
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,640
Speaker 3: working in the DA's office still in nineteen ninety two.

199
00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 3: I understand coming to the understanding that he did not

200
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 3: want to be a lawyer and figuring out what was next,

201
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 3: and George was just an idea. Slowly, it was more

202
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 3: so that he was working on it. And by the

203
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 3: time I think he felt settled into what he knew

204
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,640
Speaker 3: he was going to do, because, let's face it, what

205
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 3: he going to do was a big burden for him.

206
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 3: He had to do with that last name. There was

207
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 3: an enormous pressure for him to do something big and

208
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 3: to make it stand out. And turns out George was

209
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 3: quite precient because culture and politics do go hand in

210
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,560
Speaker 3: hand today. But it took him a while to get

211
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 3: settled in that, and I think he needed to feel

212
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 3: that he knew what his trajectory was going to be

213
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 3: before he settled down. And by then Jackie got sick,

214
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 3: and unfortunately he did not get to introduce Carolyn and Jackie,

215
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,840
Speaker 3: which he told several friends that was one of his

216
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 3: biggest regrets.

217
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 1: Do you think he would have gone into public service ultimately.

218
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, he told several friends. And he also he

219
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,439
Speaker 3: was going to run for senator, and then when Hillary Clinton,

220
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 3: they were friendly with the Clinton family. When Hillary Clinton

221
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,559
Speaker 3: went into that senatorial race, he sort of backed out,

222
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 3: but then he started to eye governorship. It was definitely

223
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 3: in the plan, and one of the things that he

224
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,400
Speaker 3: was working on. One of the many weights they had

225
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 3: was that, you know, George, it initially did very well,

226
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 3: and then, like a lot of magazines, it takes quite

227
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 3: some time to make money financially, and he was under

228
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 3: a lot of financial burden with that. And it was

229
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 3: David Becker who was the head of Hush at Philipacci

230
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 3: at the time, and they would trot John out for dinners,

231
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,480
Speaker 3: for bringing in advertising money and lunches and appearances, and

232
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,120
Speaker 3: it turned out they weren't one hundred percent sure that

233
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 3: money was going into George. So it was a very

234
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 3: tricky time.

235
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't want John's memory to overshadow Carolyn's because after all,

236
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 1: this is a book about her life. Tell us a

237
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 1: little bit about her childhood, about her family life, about

238
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,200
Speaker 1: going to Boston University. Just give us a thumbnail sketch

239
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 1: of who this young woman was.

240
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 3: Yes, so she was born in White Plains and she

241
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 3: lived there until she was eleven. A lot of that

242
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 3: time was with her single mother and her two older sisters,

243
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 3: who were twins. Her mother was a powerhouse, and actually

244
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 3: all three girls were too. They took her example to heart,

245
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 3: and she not only taught them to work hard, but

246
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,840
Speaker 3: she taught them a lot about empathy and not leaving

247
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 3: people behind. And that was one of the things that

248
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 3: prompted me to want to write this book, that she

249
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 3: really was a caretaker, very compassion based. If someone had,

250
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 3: you know, an issue. In third grade, a friend was

251
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 3: getting bullied, she you know, put this person under her

252
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 3: wing and took care of them. In fifth grade, there

253
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 3: was a boy whose mother had died, and children can

254
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 3: sometimes not be quite sympathetic or and they you know,

255
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 3: were saying, you know, oh, your mom died, and Carolyn

256
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 3: was the one to come to him and say no, no, no, no,

257
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,080
Speaker 3: don't listen to them. They don't really know what they're

258
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 3: talking about and comforted him, took him under her wing.

259
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 3: That this was behavior that she always had her mother's family.

260
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 3: Her mother was a first generation Italian American. Her grandfather

261
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 3: came from Italy, a very strong work ethic. I like

262
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 3: to think it has to do with her impeccable eye

263
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 3: and fashion and style as well. She did have some

264
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 3: times where she felt like her father was not around enough.

265
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 3: But one of the beautiful things was later on in

266
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 3: her life and even at the encouragement of John, that

267
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 3: they had a reprochement. And it was lovely because she

268
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 3: began to understood more that it wasn't that her father

269
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,400
Speaker 3: didn't want to be there, but if you're living apart,

270
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 3: and it was the seventies and his work took him

271
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 3: away quite often, and then kids get caught up in

272
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,920
Speaker 3: their lives and it was more about circumstances. But were

273
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 3: they divorced, Yes, the parents divorced when Caroline nineteen seventy four.

274
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 3: They divorced and Carolyn's mother, Anne Freeman, who was a

275
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 3: teacher beloved by her students by the way, remarried an

276
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,439
Speaker 3: orthopedic surgeon and then they relocated to Greenwich, Connecticut. So

277
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 3: people often like to say she's from an affluent background.

278
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,840
Speaker 3: She was more from a middle class background, but with

279
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 3: a very strong work ethic and highly intelligent and empathetic people.

280
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,400
Speaker 3: I like to put it that way, and I think

281
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 3: that was a lot of her appeal for John.

282
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 1: She went on to Boston University. Tell us about her

283
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 1: college years and how she was shaped by them.

284
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,160
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. I just met someone the other

285
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 3: day who went to college with her that I didn't

286
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,520
Speaker 3: get a chance to speak to for the book. They

287
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 3: all spoke about how down to earth she was. That

288
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 3: kindness was definitely there. Taking care of her roommate lost

289
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 3: her mother, she sat down next to her on the

290
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 3: couch and just, you know, held her hand in a

291
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 3: way that is unusual for someone at that age. She

292
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 3: studied education, which is what her mother studied, and she

293
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 3: adored children, absolutely adored them, and had an excellent way

294
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 3: with them. They often immediately felt comfortable in her presence.

295
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 3: But a lot of her classmates noted that she was

296
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 3: very down to earth. Most of the time. She was

297
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 3: in sweats or you know, scrambled her hair on top

298
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 3: of her head. She was not a fashion plate at

299
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 3: the time. She was buried down to Earth and from

300
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 3: Boston University. She was getting out of a cab at

301
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 3: Chestnut Hill Mall and she was spotted by a Calvin

302
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,400
Speaker 3: Klein regional representative who said, hey, you you to come

303
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 3: and work in this store. So, I you know, she definitely,

304
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 3: you know, and a fashion icon, an impeccable eye. But

305
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 3: I don't think that was what she had always planned

306
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 3: to do with her life. And I think her values

307
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 3: were often comse elsewhere.

308
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: So you think she wanted to be a teacher like

309
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 1: her mom, ideally until the fates intervened, and so the

310
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: faiths intervened.

311
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 3: Yes, I think I think she did. You know, she

312
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 3: got a degree in education. There's an adorable story in

313
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 3: the book about she and another woman student teaching and

314
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 3: it's Boston and December and they've got to get three

315
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 3: year olds outside and then back inside without tears. So

316
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 3: they duct taped there were going to just duct tape

317
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 3: these little kittens to their mittens, you know, the cop

318
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 3: to the mittens, and then just kind of cut them

319
00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,880
Speaker 3: off when they come back in. She just loved and

320
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 3: one of the things that she was thinking about doing

321
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 3: before the accident, she was really thinking about getting back

322
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 3: into teaching in any way that she could to work

323
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 3: with underserved communities. It was important to her, and so

324
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 3: she needed time. Though. She needed time to figure out

325
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 3: how what exactly that would be and exactly how it

326
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 3: would look. Because they had so many eyes on them,

327
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 3: she felt like she needed to have everything locked and

328
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,160
Speaker 3: loaded because she knew that if she didn't the way

329
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 3: the tabloids had been that she would get torn apart

330
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,640
Speaker 3: for it. So she was being careful about her next steps.

331
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 3: But they had not even been married three years. So

332
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 3: when we think about all the iterations and career changes

333
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 3: that we've all had over the many years, you know,

334
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 3: it would have been lovely to be able to see

335
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 3: what she would have done. I think it would have

336
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 3: made a difference.

337
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 1: You know, when I look back at photos of that

338
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 1: time when she is dating and then married to John,

339
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 1: I think how terrifying and borderline miserable it must have

340
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 1: been to just be hunted like that everywhere you went.

341
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: They couldn't leave their apartment. I think they had a

342
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: place in Tribeca, and every time they left their home

343
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: or walked down the street, I mean, it was just

344
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: these vultures descending on them. And I'm sure and by

345
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: the way, some of the people, the paparazzo's I guess

346
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: that's the plural, are actually fine and nice people. This

347
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: is how they make a living. But it's just so

348
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: constant and so intrusive. How did she feel about being

349
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 1: on display? Pretty much twenty four to seven, or whenever

350
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: she ventured out in public, she.

351
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 3: Was terrified, absolutely terrified. And they treated her differently if

352
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: she was when she was with John and if she

353
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: was on her own. If John was around, it was

354
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 3: a little bit more like, Hi, how are you guys doing?

355
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 3: Can you give us a smile? You know, keeping a

356
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 3: respectful distance. If she was on her own, they would

357
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 3: often close in and yell out epithets to try to

358
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 3: get a face of unhappiness that they could then add

359
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 3: a story of, you know, trouble in the marriage, you know,

360
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 3: create that narrative. She became further and further frightened. It

361
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 3: was terrible. I mean, I'm hoping that with this book

362
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 3: that the difference between how someone was painted and who had,

363
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 3: you know, had to live in the public eye. The

364
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 3: difference between how they were painted and the reality is

365
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 3: something that we can all start to maybe keep in

366
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 3: our minds when we sort of that toxic herd mentality

367
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: that we have towards people in the public eye. You know,

368
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: everyone free to comment, and it's you know, let's elevate

369
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 3: a little bit and keep in mind that these are

370
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 3: human beings trying to live a real life, and we

371
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 3: have an opportunity now. I think, you know, everyone's saturated

372
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 3: with images. People feel obligated to have a platform by

373
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: putting pictures of themselves out there. Maybe it's I'm hoping

374
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 3: the book sort of shows a way that people can

375
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 3: empathize a little bit more understand that people never no

376
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: one ever knows exactly how something is going to go.

377
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: Carolyn couldn't have known that this would have been her life.

378
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 3: She knew that she would be in the public eye.

379
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: She had no idea she could walk out her front door.

380
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 3: And I just think, be a little gentler and kinder

381
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 3: with one another, and just know that we, even if

382
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: it may look like we have absolutely everything, that everyone's

383
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: got a battle.

384
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: Do you think John prepared her well enough. This reminds

385
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: me a little bit of Megan Markle and Prince Harry.

386
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: You know, somebody entering this public sphere and having a

387
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: certain appreciation for what was to come, but not truly

388
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: experiencing or understanding the level of intensity that takes place.

389
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if he helped her enough acclimate to

390
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: this new normal they experienced.

391
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 3: Let's see. Well, you know, the funny thing is is

392
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: it ramped up after they got married, and that was

393
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 3: exactly when they were expecting it to settle down. There

394
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: was interest and it was incoming, but once they got married,

395
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: it went into overdrive. And I really don't think there

396
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 3: was any way to anticipate that it would be exactly

397
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: like that. And I think John did try to sort

398
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: of teach her. He was a gracious, kind man.

399
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: And it's something he was so used to because he

400
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: had grown up with it.

401
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 3: You'd grown up with it and learned by watching from

402
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: the time that he was a young toddler, right, and

403
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: the fact that the public knew him from the time

404
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 3: he was a young toddler also made the public and

405
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: the media have a different attitude towards him than a

406
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 3: female coming in and being seen as an intertloper. And

407
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: as we know, you know, marrying into any family can

408
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: be you know, can bring out the mother in law

409
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: mentality as who is this person? Are they good enough,

410
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: and when you marry into a very large public family

411
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 3: and that way, that that doubles. And it seems like misogynist, classist,

412
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 3: and racist tropes can be thrown at these women because

413
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 3: it's just too easy when they're coming in from the outside.

414
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, there is no handbook to hand over to

415
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: someone because you just don't know exactly what the attention

416
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: is going to be.

417
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: Or what they're going going to write, or how you're

418
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: going to be received, or the tricks of the trade,

419
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: as you said, getting her to scal or look sad

420
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: so good accompany some bs story.

421
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: Yes, oh exactly, over and over, and you know who

422
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: isn't going to look afraid and angry if you're being

423
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to use the word, if you're someone shouting

424
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: out to you that you're a whore and a gold

425
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 3: digger when you're just trying to go to the grocery store.

426
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: There was an incident where she fell on the steps

427
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: and groceries went everywhere, and no one helped her. No

428
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 3: one tried to help her gather her groceries or help

429
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: her up. They just got closer and took more pictures.

430
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 3: And I just think there's there's no way to be

431
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: prepared for that, even if you did have a handbook.

432
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 3: That hurts and you see that they're treating John one

433
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 3: way and you another, and it made her frightened, and

434
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: it made her reclusive. That worsened they treated her. You know,

435
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: it became a little bit of a vicious circle. I

436
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: do feel like and hope that this was the case.

437
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: Is she was beginning to work through a lot of that.

438
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: Towards the end. She very one of the very few

439
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: times that she spoke to any publication. She spoke to

440
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 3: Women's Wear Daily in March of ninety nine, explaining that

441
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: she no longer read about herself and felt that not

442
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 3: only was she a happier person because of that, but

443
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: maybe a better person because of that.

444
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: You mentioned that she was terrified with the onslaught of attention,

445
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: and I'm curious how that impacted their marriage. Were they

446
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: happily married? From what you were able to glean.

447
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 3: I think that they they loved each other very much.

448
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: I mean from what I was able to glean. I

449
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 3: was not there, and this is talking to people after

450
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: the fact. I think there was no doubt that they

451
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: really loved one another. They enjoyed time together they laughed

452
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: a lot together. That was one of the main things.

453
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: Is their sense of humor was very in accord and

454
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 3: they valued their friends, They were devoted to their family.

455
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 3: All of these things brought them together. Now, when something

456
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: like public and media attention intrudes on a private life,

457
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 3: it becomes very difficult. We've seen over and over many

458
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: marriages sort of implode under that kind of pressure. I

459
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: spoke with Karl Radziwill once, and you know, she explained

460
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 3: to me that even old friends might call you and say, oh,

461
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: my gosh, I read this. Is that true? And you say, no,

462
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 3: of course it's not true that of course.

463
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: That didn't happen.

464
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: But then that little thing becomes part of the narrative

465
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: in your life and your marriage, but also in navigating

466
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: those friendships and those other relationships if they're worried about

467
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: you because they read something absolutely cuckoo.

468
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: And people, I think can't delineate, you know, fact from fiction.

469
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I've experienced this in a very small way

470
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: in my life and career, and it can be very destabilizing.

471
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: And of course you multiply that a million times for

472
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: poor Carolyn Beset, and you think, gosh, it just really

473
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: can have the impact of just really screwing you up

474
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: and not knowing who you can trust, who's talking to

475
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: the press, feeling insecure. You know, it's just it's a

476
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: lot of stuff to manage.

477
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: It's so much to manage, and it really does intrude

478
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: And I think one of the hard things for them

479
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: was the difference in the ways that they wanted to

480
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: handle that. And of course they're different people. They're different

481
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: people from different backgrounds, coming at it with a different

482
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: set of tools. But also John is used to it

483
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 3: and he just kind of had to learn to, you know,

484
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: you just wave and move on. And I think because

485
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: he was so busy with his magazine and under his

486
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 3: own pressure, he probably got frustrated with the fact that

487
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: it was taking her a while. But then when we

488
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: look at it from her point of view, it was

489
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: a very different experience for her in many different ways,

490
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: and it was destabilizing. She was hurt by what they

491
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: were saying. I don't think she expected them to portray

492
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: her as a heartbeat or a gold digger, which is

493
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: a word that I really despise, gold digger. And I'd

494
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: like to point out that it seems like if a

495
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: woman is you know gold Digger one oh one is

496
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: have a baby right away right because that feels like

497
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: some kind of something, and her reluctance to have a

498
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: child until things settled down more it shows what her

499
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: values are there. She wanted the marriage like in a good,

500
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: stable place, and she wanted it to be a situation

501
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: where a child wouldn't be traumatized by walking out and

502
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: having their picture taken the moment they stepped out their

503
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: front door.

504
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Did they ever think about leaving New York? I feel

505
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: like if they hadn't been in the epicenter of New

506
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: York City and you know, Hipsterville, they might have been

507
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: able to enjoy a little more privacy. Did they think

508
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: about that?

509
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: I think that was one of the things that they

510
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: were talking about. I don't you know. I only heard

511
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: that from a couple of friends. But it seems very

512
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: logical that they would have been searching for another property

513
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: where they could have the apartment in the city but

514
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: also have another home to have more of a base

515
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 3: for raising children. And I do think they were thinking

516
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: about that. But John had to make sure that George

517
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: was solvent before he had moved on to the next thing,

518
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: and in fact, he was touching base with a close

519
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: friend about how to turn it into more of an

520
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: internet magazine, which what it was new at the time,

521
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: which is also interesting because it's like Carolyn was almost

522
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: that first internet celebrity that was hounded in an Internet way,

523
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: and I think it was just very frightening for her.

524
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: And I think that if you know, there were issues,

525
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: you know, as in every married couple, I think the

526
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: first couple of years of marriage or the hardest, it's

527
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: not about the toothbrush and you know, it's it's about

528
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: what ways are you going to grow? And what great

529
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: ways are you going to help me grow? And what

530
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: ways are we going to have to also learn to

531
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: accept and tolerate and be patient with because nobody grows

532
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 3: at light speed. But I really do think they loved

533
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 3: each other. I'd like to think that they would have

534
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: made it. I do think the fact that he very

535
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: much wanted her to accompany him to Rory Kennedy's wedding

536
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: and the fact that she did make the decision to

537
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: go ahead and do it, I think that shows you know,

538
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: that they were still committed. But it takes a huge toll,

539
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: as you know, right it's being in the public eye is,

540
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 3: and it was something that she never she never wanted

541
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: when she hesitated with his engagement, with his proposal, it

542
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: was about that. It was about, you know, she hadn't

543
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: been interested in a public life and was she willing

544
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: to take it on to be with him.

545
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine, was the day that that

546
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: plane went down off Martha's vineyard. And I think everyone

547
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: remembers Elizabeth where they were when they heard the news.

548
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,239
Speaker 1: And I remember my sister Emily, who was dealing with

549
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: cancer at the time, calling me. It was a Saturday

550
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: morning and I think it must have been like ten

551
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: thirty or eleven, and she called me and said, did

552
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: you hear about John Kennedy's plane? And I wondered if

553
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: you could just take us back to that day because

554
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: there have been a lot of urban legends about what happened.

555
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I've heard the stories about

556
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: she needed a manicure, she was late, and all these things.

557
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: So I would love you to put some of those

558
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: stories to rest. What did you discover had happened that day?

559
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, And that was part of why

560
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 3: I wrote the book. I wanted to put some of

561
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: those stories to rest when we lose someone, and everybody

562
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: felt like they knew John, and in a way, Carolyn,

563
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: when we lose someone, people often want to assign blame.

564
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: It's not our best feature as human beings, but it's

565
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: a natural one. John was working that day, Carolyn, who,

566
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: like any woman, who did decide, oh, yes, I am

567
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: going to go to this wedding, and it's a summer wedding.

568
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: She did go get a pedicure, but she was not

569
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: there for any elongated amount of time, changing the shade

570
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 3: of tonail color three times. And in fact, the gentleman

571
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 3: who initially said he saw her getting the pedicure did

572
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 3: come back later and said I saw her leaving this

573
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 3: salon no later than five o'clock. And then they were

574
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 3: all in cars at the same time heading to the airport.

575
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: So there became and this was years after. There became

576
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: a lot of books, some written by men that really

577
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: tried to place the blame on her and say it

578
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 3: was her fault that they were late. That's just not

579
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: the case. They were all in a car at the

580
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: same time headed to the airport. It was a sticky,

581
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 3: hot New York City Friday. As we know, they can

582
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 3: be and somehow sometimes it feels like the city just

583
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: doesn't want to let you leave it bumper to bumper traffic.

584
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 3: And then the other thing about when people try to

585
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 3: say John was careless or that he flew illegally, that's

586
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: not the case either. He was not careless with his wife.

587
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 3: He flew legally for visual flight rules that night. Visual

588
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 3: flight rules require five to ten miles of visibility, and

589
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 3: he checked the weather report in the afternoon before he

590
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: went to the airport. He checked it again and it

591
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 3: said that there was that much visibility. Unfortunately, that can

592
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: change very quickly over those islands. But the what I

593
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: focus on is the fact that the two of them

594
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: were going to this together. And you know, accidents are

595
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 3: called accidents for a reason. That's a couple. You know,

596
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: it takes several things going wrong, and it was, you know,

597
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: it was devastating and sad for everyone. People thought, you know,

598
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 3: people felt they'd known John since he was a toddler.

599
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 3: It was. It was quite sad. I kind of at

600
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 3: that moment. I remember I was working at Sethy's at

601
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 3: the time, and I was going in on a Saturday,

602
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: and I don't remember what it was for, but I

603
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: was going in, saw the news there, and from there

604
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: I just kind of pulled away. I didn't want to

605
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: watch it anymore. And I didn't really look at the

606
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: story again until twenty nineteen, on the twenty eth Ani versary,

607
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: when the news had changed so much, and it's coming

608
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: in my inbox instead of something that I would have

609
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: had to seek out by picking up a magazine and reading.

610
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't watch TV at the time, and

611
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: so it was very interesting to sort of read all

612
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 3: of that many years later, and, like I said, noticed

613
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: that discrepancy and how Carolyn was portrayed between those who

614
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: knew her and what the tabloids wanted to make out

615
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: and even years after their deaths, how they wanted to

616
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: sort of lay blame at her feet.

617
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: When we come back, there was a third person on

618
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: the plane with John and Carolyn that fateful night. Carolyn's

619
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: sister Lauren will remember her. Right after this, we're back

620
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: now with Elizabeth Beller, author of Once Upon a Time.

621
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: One person you haven't mentioned is Carolyn's sister Lauren, who

622
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: was on that plane, and I feel like she is

623
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: the forgotten victim of all this. I often thought about

624
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: their mom and the heartache and tragedy of losing two

625
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: of your daughters in an instant and I know, I

626
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: guess Lauren's twin is still alive, and gosh, were you

627
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: able to talk to anyone who knew Carolyn and Lauren's mom.

628
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: I did end up speaking with Carolyn's family on her

629
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: father's side, not her surviving sister, not her surviving sister,

630
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 3: you know, I out of respect, I didn't even reach

631
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: out to her surviving sister. I did write a handwritten

632
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: letter to her mother and both her father, I guess

633
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 3: her mother and stepfather and her biological father at the

634
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: very beginning, letting them know that I was writing the book,

635
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: who I was, sort of what my take was, and

636
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: if they had any questions about me or the book,

637
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 3: to please feel free to reach out. I did not

638
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: hear from them, and I completely expected that and understood that, Yes, Lauren,

639
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 3: all of these girls were powerhouses like their mother, highly intelligent,

640
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: highly motivated. One of the reasons Lauren came back to

641
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: the United States from Hong Kong, who's worked for Morgan Stanley,

642
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: high powered finance executive. But one of the reasons she

643
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: came back was to be with Carolyn. When Carolyn was

644
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: going through this very difficult time, not in a sort

645
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 3: of i'll sit next to you every moment and hold

646
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: your handway, but to be there for her and spend

647
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: time with her. And I think that helped Carolyn a lot.

648
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: And it's heartbreaking that these girls who were taught to

649
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 3: never leave anyone behind and be caretaking. It's very heartbreaking

650
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 3: to think that that's part of what Lauren was doing

651
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: when she was also taken, and part of the reason

652
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: that I wasn't really paying attention that I looked away

653
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 3: from the story on July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine. I

654
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 3: looked away and couldn't. It was just the heartbreak of

655
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 3: thinking about their family, what became of Carolyn's parents, well,

656
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: her mother and stepfather. But I don't know how you

657
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 3: get asked that. It's heartbreaking. If I had gotten a

658
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 3: note back from any one of the family members saying

659
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: please don't do this, I would have stopped. But they

660
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: are still alive, and I did speak with, like I said,

661
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: her paternal uncle and aunt and nephew. And it's a

662
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 3: heartbreaking moment, very heartbreaking moment, and you know that day itself.

663
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: I don't have too much to comment on other than also,

664
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: you know, saddened and shocked. But then I felt like

665
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: I needed to look away immediately because how large it

666
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 3: was in the media. Could not have it must have

667
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: made mourning them even harder.

668
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: How would you describe the Carolyn you got to know

669
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: during the process of writing this book. You said she

670
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: was compassionate, she was funny. It sounds like she was

671
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: down to earth. That quality continued, but she I think

672
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: her physicality I think worked against those qualities because she

673
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: was so uniquely beautiful and had so much style that

674
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: I think for some people they might have perceived that

675
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: as haughty or off putting or you know, superior. And

676
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm just curious because I would then like to ask

677
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: you about her style, because I know you write a

678
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: lot about that, and you talk about the fashion she

679
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: was wearing, et cetera. But tell us about who she

680
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: really was.

681
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: She was very funny and fun loving. Like I said,

682
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: a lot of her relationship with John was based on

683
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 3: laughing together in merciless teasing and laughter and making a joke,

684
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: even when it was tabloid interests. You know, there was

685
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: some tabloid saying, oh, she's jealous. You know, John was

686
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: seen with so and so Carolyn, as a joke, sent

687
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 3: a bunch of posters into George with a pretend note

688
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: saying from Claudia Schiffer, I love you, you know, and

689
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 3: she ha ha ha. She thought it was funny, and

690
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: John could be heard laughing in his office, but she

691
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: was joyful, and so that humor went with it, but

692
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 3: that sense of joy. One of her friends commented that

693
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 3: every day, you know, sort of before she got very frightened,

694
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 3: Carolyn looked at life with this, what great thing? What

695
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: fun thing is going to happen today? What can we

696
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 3: make happen? And she commented that that was a trait

697
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: that Carolyn held on to for a very long time.

698
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: And that's unusual, right, It's unusual because life kind of

699
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: but she did manage to hold on to it. She

700
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: did manage to still laugh and joke when she was

701
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: comfortable and in private with friends and remain that caring

702
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: person who spent a week helping someone out with a problem.

703
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 3: Or when John's cousin, Anthony Radziwill was sick, going to

704
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 3: the hospital with Anthony and Carol all the time and

705
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 3: sticking a picture of Friday up on the wall, their

706
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 3: dog Friday, you know, here, this will cheer you up,

707
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: you know, half leaving it and half being facetious, but

708
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: keeping it light and honestly, I think that is something

709
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: that comes out in the photographs, and that's part of

710
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 3: why we are so entranced with these photos of her.

711
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: And when we talk about the style, obviously she had

712
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 3: an impeccable eye. I think she stressed very differently in

713
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 3: private than she did in public. It was almost as

714
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 3: if she put on a uniform of all black, hoping,

715
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: you know, if she's always wearing black, they wouldn't be

716
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 3: interested in taking the pictures. And one of the things

717
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: Yogi Yamamoto, she was often wearing his pieces when she

718
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: had to do public events. And what was interesting is

719
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: he had mentioned at an earlier time that his work

720
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: was almost like armor for women to keep them safe,

721
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: and I found that very interesting. I don't know if

722
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: Carolyn had ever heard that quote, but I think maybe

723
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: she sensed that that's what that clothing was like and

724
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:18,959
Speaker 3: felt like she needed that armor, which is it's unfortunate,

725
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 3: and I really do hope that, you know, as a

726
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 3: culture and as a public and in media, we can

727
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: take that and like learn from it and not make

728
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: people who are in the public eye feel like every

729
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: second is scrutinized and tear them apart unthinkingly. I mean, obviously,

730
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 3: as someone is hurting someone, yes we call attention to

731
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: that and ask them to stop. But if someone's going

732
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: about their day, you know that we really do need

733
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: to keep in mind that everyone has a battle something

734
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: that is very hard for them.

735
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: She's having a bit of a renaissance on social media,

736
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: on TikTok, and I think a lot of young women

737
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: are looking at her with fascination about sort of the way,

738
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, her whole look and the choices she made

739
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: and her sense of style. What do you make of

740
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: this renaissance we're seeing on TikTok and other social media

741
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: platforms of Carolyn Bessett, the style like.

742
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 3: On I think it is about that restraint. We've gone

743
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 3: through a lot of years where it was about very

744
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: revealing clothes and heavy, heavy makeup, you know, contouring to

745
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: make your face look completely like a completely different shape

746
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 3: than it actually is. And I think, you know, even

747
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: though Carolyn was you know, she had on the red

748
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 3: lipstick and her hair might be back tight, she looked

749
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 3: she had a natural look. And I think in an

750
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 3: age where we're saturated with images. I think that that

751
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 3: becomes even more appealing.

752
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: She's a anti Kardashian in a way.

753
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: That's definitely one way to put it. Yes, Like you know,

754
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 3: the false eyelashes, it's you know, she had advised one

755
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 3: young woman that she was friends with, you know, just

756
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 3: push your hair up when it's what put on some

757
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 3: lip gloss. You know, mascara wasn't really used. It was

758
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 3: a very natural look, which you know, it's it's very appealing.

759
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: She was a very beautiful, interestingly beautiful woman too. You know,

760
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: she wasn't perfect. She wasn't you know, perfectly symmetrical. You know,

761
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: she had kind of a longer nose, but for whatever reason.

762
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: And I also think she had, you know, a wonderful

763
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: companion and just together, they were an incredibly dashing couple.

764
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: And I think people also were longing for what JFK

765
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: and Jackie represented, just an incredibly good looking couple that

766
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: had an extraordinary sense of stuff, who made you feel

767
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: good looking at them, made.

768
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 3: You feel good looking at them. You know, the sixties

769
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: seemed to the early sixties felt to be a very

770
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 3: hopeful time. I think that in the nineties, people people

771
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: were wanting that hope as well. They were an entrancing

772
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 3: couple to look at. And I do love that Carolyn

773
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 3: was unusual looking. I think it adds to her beauty.

774
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 3: It's sort of like an like I mean, like a

775
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: Linda evangelistaway rights. She's not your cookie cutter either, but

776
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 3: all the more beautiful for it. And one of the

777
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: friends of Carolyn's from Greenwich commented on that Carolyn was

778
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: just striking and beautiful, but not in this sort of

779
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 3: cookie cutter way that a lot. You know, she didn't

780
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 3: have the winged hair, you know, she or the perms

781
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: that were in the eighties. You know, her hair was

782
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: always sort of like a natural way, and her beauty

783
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 3: was unusual, and which is often all the more so

784
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 3: for being unusual.

785
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: How old would John be today? Sixty four? Isn't that crazy?

786
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: And I'm sixty seven, So yeah, it's our generation. And

787
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: I just realized Carolyn, she and I had the same birthday,

788
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: January seventh.

789
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: You're kidding, Oh, yow, interesting, that's great.

790
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: And we both had crushes on her husband.

791
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 3: A lot of women had crushes on her husband was

792
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: so you know that time did become very hopeful again.

793
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 3: And you know, there were their deaths, and then for

794
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: our generation, right and then nine to eleven and what

795
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 3: we were afraid of with y two K. We didn't

796
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 3: need to fear that it was all going to stop.

797
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 3: I think we probably needed to fear that we weren't

798
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 3: prepared to use it properly. And hopefully we're learning more

799
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 3: and more now, but it just feels like a huge

800
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 3: change happened after that.

801
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Once Upon a Time, The

802
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessett Kennedy Elizabeth Feller. Thank you

803
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: so much for telling us all about the person we

804
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: thought we knew but really didn't.

805
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for having me on and

806
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: forgiving me the opportunity to talk about it even more,

807
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 3: and that people realize, you know what lovely people and

808
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 3: compassion based people they both were.

809
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

810
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

811
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

812
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

813
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: oh nine five point two five to five oh five,

814
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I

815
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next question is a

816
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers

817
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer

818
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and

819
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more

820
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter,

821
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,

822
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also

823
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.

824
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

825
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,