WEBVTT - John Eterno and David Kennedy on Nuanced Policing 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.680 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.840 My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers, 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:15.080 to hear their stories. What inspired their creations, what decisions 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:21.079 change their careers, what relationships influence their work. There are 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.560 thirty four thousand police officers in New York City and 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.440 hundreds of thousands more in departments across the country. We 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.200 give the police a lot of responsibility and a lot 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.680 of power. How they use that power, more specifically, how 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.879 they use force is central to the quality of our 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.640 democracy and one of the hottest topics in our society today. 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.760 The deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:54.120 Garner in New York City, both killed during controversial police encounters, 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.920 led to massive protests across the country and in New 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.600 York City to the apparent retaliity Tory assassination of two 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.680 police officers, Wenjin Lou and Rafael Ramos in late December, 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.520 the New York City Police Union had Patrick Lynch responded 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.600 to the officers deaths with this there's blood on many 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.679 hands tonight. Lynch went on to blame protesters and even 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.679 New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio that blood on 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:25.640 the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.360 the Office of the Mayor. Last week in The New 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.640 York Times, Isabel Wilkerson wrote that the protests across the 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.440 country quote are a response to unprosecuted police brutality, but 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.839 are also a plea for recognition of African Americans humanity unquote. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.200 How people feel about police and policing maybe as divisive 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.440 now as it has ever been. I wanted to know 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.280 how we came to this point and how we might 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.480 make things better. I started by talking to two people, 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.440 John Eterno and David Kennedy, who have been working on 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.360 policing issues long before the conversation became the current front 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.400 page shouting match. Both have deep street experience. Johnny Turno, 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.680 my first guest, teaches criminal justice at Malloy College. He 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.000 is a retired New York City Police captain and once 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.720 defended stop and frisk, but not how it came to 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.520 be used. Under the Bloomberg administration. After two thousand and 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.440 two through two thousand and eleven, we climb from less 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.280 than a hundred thousand stops to seven hundred thousand stops, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:33.440 mostly in minority neighborhoods. And this this is the problem. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.320 The police became like an army of occupation in these neighborhoods. 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.920 And this is what the Floyd case stands for. Floyd 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.920 is a case where the Center for Constitutional Rights sued 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.920 the city regarding their stop behaviors. Who is Floyd and 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.040 what happened in the case, Well, these are minority individuals 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:58.000 who are stopped illegally by the police. One was a 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.320 medical student um and Judge Sinlan in the case essentially 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:07.280 finds that the police department, through its policy, was the 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.280 facto racist in what it was doing. Do you think 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.800 the New York City Police Department is the factor racist? 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.959 I don't. I don't think officers individual or do you 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.520 think that the policies can result in racists? I think 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:24.080 the policy of stopping first did result in an and 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.639 in the fact of racist pattern that Judge Sinlan talks about. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.799 And she's very clear in her finding. The officers uh 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.079 And again I talked to many officers, most almost all 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:40.680 all officers are very high upstanding, honest working citizens doing 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.280 a very very tough job. But what officers swear an 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.320 oath to They don't swear an oath to bring down crime. 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.240 They swear an oath to protect the Constitution of the 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.280 United States, and that means that you have to allow 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.200 free speech. You have to allow people the maximum freedom 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.280 that you can within the law. So you have to 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.360 enforce the law while at the same time following law. 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.440 And in this case, would stop and frisk officers went 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.120 too far? Why because they're under these heavy quotas. Rookie 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.400 officers are sent out there told we want you to 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.600 do ten stop in first today, so they would go 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.760 out then they stopped like ten people that they saw. 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.920 Officers were doing this because of all of these pressures, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.720 according to Judge Finlin, and I would agree with that. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:27.560 And because of all these pressures, they're stopping innocent, mostly 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.360 minority youth. They're finding very few violations of the law. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.479 They're finding very few guns, which was what Commissioner Kelly 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.280 at the time stated was the reason why they were 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.000 doing all this, but they weren't getting much. It wasn't 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.400 really an effective thing. Now, with Commissioner Bratton back, we've 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.440 gone down to less than a hundred thousand stops, and 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.760 they're more effective stops. They're finding guns more often than 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.640 they did under Commissioner Kelly. And I would also say 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.440 that under Commissioner Kelly, crime was also dropping, So that's 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.080 that's a good thing. But with crime dropping, they're or 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.400 less criminal suspects on the street, or there should be 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.960 less criminal suspects. So how do you go from a 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.359 hundred thousand stops or legally doing a hundred thousand stops, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.039 or to doing seven hundred thousand stops if there are 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.159 less criminal suspects? The law requires officers to have something 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:21.800 called reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is a level of proof 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.600 that people needed, like you have to be kind sure 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.279 that the person is is doing something wrong. So you 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.080 can't just, like on a mere hunt, say I'm gonna 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.880 stop that guy. That's illegal. It's unconstitutional. You need to 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:39.080 have reasonable suspicion to legally stop someone. And this court 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.960 found that the stops being made by the New York 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:46.160 City Police Department war unconstitutional according to the fourth and 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:51.440 fourteenth And the result of that ruin well, there's frisking. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:57.440 Well that's a good question because Commissioner Kelly was continually 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.800 saying I'm not changing the policy even after this was rendered. 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.920 And you have to understand though that during the time 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.080 of Bloomberg. It's kind of like a a steam being 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.400 put in a bottle. There's all the steam and minority 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.720 communities and building and building and building, and then the 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.520 Blasio comes in and he kind of pops the cork 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.360 and all the steams coming out and people are all. 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.919 You know, people didn't complain under Kelly and Bloomberg, because 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.880 what was the point. I think people have a right 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.800 to say what they're as long as it's peaceful. You 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.599 know that, And I'm fine with that. I'm even fine 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.960 with the police officers themselves. Um, as long as it's 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.839 peaceful and it's in the spirit said that the Blasio 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.839 had blood in his hands. Well, what was your reaction 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.839 when you heard them? Um? There is a rhetoric in 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.840 in in this game. Sometimes the rhetoric goes a bit 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.280 too far, and uh, I think they've never seen it. 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.120 It's a bit far. But I do think Pat lynch 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.960 Is is more much more concerned more about how his 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.719 officers are perceived. He wants that respect that officers deserve, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.240 and I agree with that. Uh, these officers are out 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.719 there doing a tough job and he's right, they need 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.240 to be respected. And he felt a mad to Blasio 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.040 disrespected them. Did he go a bit far with his rhetoric. Yes, 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.560 you know, things have gotten out of hand and we 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.880 need somebody to, you know, bring the level back down. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.040 Minority communities are upset because of the unconstitutional stops that 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.880 were done over years and years. We're not talking about 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.040 it a day or or a few unconstitutional stops. We're 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:34.400 talking about wholesale stops done in um mostly minority neighborhoods 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.480 that have been done. Seven stops in one year is 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.960 to me is incredulous. Uh, And it seems like a 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:45.200 waste of money too. Most people I know look at 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.040 the police. They realize it's a tough job. They realized 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.360 they're not paid very much money. They see what happened 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.400 with Eric Garner, and they think, why the finest police 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.280 department in the world has four guys that can't bring 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.960 down some guy that's selling lucy cigarettes on the ground. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.160 Why can't they bring him down without killing him? Well, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.880 when you saw the Eric Garner footage, what did the 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.760 first thing you thought? Well, first, it's a lot more complicated. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.680 If somebody doesn't want to be handcuffed, that's whoever it is. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.320 It's very difficult to handcuff them. It is. And now 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.960 these officers, these officers. When I saw the film, um, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:24.640 I didn't have a problem with the use of force. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.000 But here's my problem. I hear I can't breathe. I 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.640 can't breathe, and it's very audible on the tape about 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.360 eleven times, and they ignore that Eric Graner is cuffed. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.320 Now it's over. They haven't coughed and they didn't do anything. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.480 That's my problem getting him cufed. I understand you have 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.080 to do what you have to do to get him coughed. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.840 There should have been a shift, that's right, and that 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.960 didn't happen. But didn't happen, you'd have to ask the officers. 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:53.920 I don't know. There was a sergeant on the scene too, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.679 I don't know. But what should have happened at the 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.200 end of that is that Eric Ghana Mr Ghanna should 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.360 have immediately immediately without without stop. He should have been 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.520 sat up, and he should have been taken to the 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.840 hospital immediate without any hesitation. When you hear something like 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.160 my I have hard palpitations on my I can't breathe, 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.920 or anything like that, that is the queue for the 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.559 officers to do. Something. So in terms of the use 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.720 of force, I didn't have a problem. Do you find 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.040 that that's the difficulty is for them in an instant 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.400 to shift from being the aggressor and the police officer 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.040 who's trying to incapacitate you and handcuff you too in 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:31.600 a split sitt of the in turner and then care 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.560 for you and become like a QUEZ I E. M. S. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.840 Technician and make sure you're okay. That is the difficulty. 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.599 That is one of the most difficult things for a 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:41.760 police officer to do it. I'm glad you you you 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.160 pointed that out. How hard it is for police officers 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.960 to initially get very aggressive and then switch it off 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.960 and become the helper. That is one of the most 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.040 difficult things that for police officers to do. But on 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.400 the flip side, they should have. That is what being 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.200 a democrat trained to do. That they are and that's 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.800 what being a democratic police officer is all about. And 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:08.160 and but understand Alec that being a police officer is 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:12.720 not a clean, easy, simple Yeah it's you. You want 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.360 to say. Remember, I'm from south Shore, Long Island, Okay, 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.640 I'm from Massa Pekra, which is the NYPD Rivieria. I'm 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.560 someone that if I didn't end up doing for a 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.120 living what I ended up doing now, there's every chance 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:26.880 to believe I'd be running down an alley but with 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.480 a gun in my hand of a narcotic squad. All 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.559 the men who are in that job. I'm so different 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.440 than them. Who's to say how I would I acknowledge that. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.080 All I'm saying is is that people in this city 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.560 believe that when the cops do something wrong, they never 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.000 get punished. And here's the PS. Guess who's gonna pay 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.079 Garner's family in a civil settlement? Well, I agree, how 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.400 much money is spent every year by the city to 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.160 settle cases against the cops? How much it's ridiculous. There's 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.880 hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, and I understand that. 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.320 But let's let's just go back, of course, So let's 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.640 go back to to Pat Lynch. Though for for a 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.600 second he does talk about money. But I think sometimes 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.600 rightfully so, I think that officers deserve um a race, 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:12.480 and I would I would be out there and I 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.959 would say, yes, they doss ave more money. Their job 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.520 is that tough. But on the flip side, we have 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.439 to be reasonable and responsible with the coffers of the city. 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.640 But the city right now is in very good shape. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:25.360 You know, it's not like we're back. I don't care 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:26.920 if the city was in good shape or bad ship. 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.200 They shouldn't have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:34.320 settling the cases. Just get a fair wage. What I 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.000 believe is I want to go even further, meaning I 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.040 want there to be less cops and they're better trained. 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:42.880 I want to sit there and I want to talk 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.920 about the physical requirements, the fitness requirements, the language requirements. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.160 I want cops to have a starting salary of a 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.120 hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a person. But you 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.440 want to know something, They've got four years of college. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.400 They can pass the physical fitness test like nobody's I mean, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.280 I want these guys, men and women to be ready. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.680 Do you think you have that in the police department now? Well, 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.800 being a police officer is a lot more complicated than 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.560 than It's not necessarily just being you can, not necessarily 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:16.920 being superman. It's it really does require the ability to 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.600 not only fight crime, but also the ability to be understanding, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.760 the ability to work with communities. Uh So, you're not 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.680 just out there, you know, enforcing the law. You're also 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.360 a community officer. You're an officer, and that would be 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.000 part of the training I'm talking about. They would have 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:35.959 more of that training as well. Yeah. I don't want 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.640 anybody to be Batman, That's that's one. I want them 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.440 to have capabilities in all aspects. I think we should 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.880 have better cops and we have slightly fewer of them 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.640 and pay them more money, a lot more money. Yeah, 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.840 that's a possibility. The job a very difficult job to get. 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.920 Understand that the city is already down about six thousand 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.720 cops from its high point where they had forty. It's 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.319 a thing. Yes, I do. I think. I think you 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.920 need officers out there, officers is back up or officers 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.840 who can be trained in very specific types of work, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.960 domestic violence officers, officers who are capable at all different 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.640 types of things. So we're not necessarily looking for, you know, Batman, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.559 as you say, We're looking for people who are uh educated, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.559 who are understanding, who are willing to keep the discretion, 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.200 who have that's the key, and I think that discretion 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:33.440 has been taken away. And I'm glad you said that 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.800 back in my day, there was far more discretion, and 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.640 there were times when you'd stop somebody and you know, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.520 you'd say to them, have a nice day, and you 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.760 wouldn't give him a summons. But for quite a while 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.480 there officers were stopping people and just giving them something. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.120 Let me give you a couple of examples. Chess players 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.000 and in wood these guys are just playing, you know, 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.360 the cement board. They're just playing chess in in the 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.320 city and along coome a couple of cops. What do 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.360 they do They write them summons is for being in 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.960 the park without children. You gotta be kidding me. Back 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.439 in my day, a couple of guys playing chest but 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.760 I wouldn't even looked at it. And then they have 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.000 the donut caper in uh in Brooklyn. These are women. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:11.760 They're eating donuts in a park, but they don't have 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.400 children with them. Officers run up to them because they 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.600 don't have children. There is a law about this. They 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.760 all get summons is for eating donuts. One of the 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.640 most egregious ones is in Queens where a woman and 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.600 a man, an elderly woman and a man. They're driving 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.640 in their cards. She doesn't have a seatbelt on. She's 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.200 going to get prescription drugs. The officers stopped the car. 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.600 They asked for identification, and the woman says, I'm sorry, 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.920 I don't have identification. It's it's it's not on me. 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.520 I I don't know. So they order the man her husband, elderly, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:41.840 to go get it the houses a few blocks away, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.240 and meantimes she gets her prescription drugs, comes out the 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.800 right every summons for the no seat belt, using her 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:51.400 prescription drug bottle as the identification. The man then comes back, 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.760 exhausted on a freezing cold night. I mean it's like 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.560 you know today, it's cold outside. Um, and he gets 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.640 back he was here, I have the identification on. The 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.880 officers say, oh, we don't need it. We already wrote 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.760 the summons. The man subsequently died and had a heart 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.040 attack from his exertion. Well, I was working. If you 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.680 stopped an elderly couple, you know, you might escort them home, 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:14.840 or you might just say, gee, I'm sorry, just put 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.280 you see about on have a nice day. But officers 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.840 had to reflect these things in their numbers, and at 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.840 the time Pat Lynch, to his credit, said, don't blame 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.240 the beat cop, blame NYPD management. And he took out 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.400 full page ads, which I agreed with it. This was 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:33.160 certainly a policy developed by the higher ups telling officers 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.400 you're gonna do this, so that discretion that you brought 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.400 up has been lost for years. Where did you grow 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.320 up bayside Queens and anybody in the family in the department? 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.920 Uh No, nobody the first Yeah, how did that come about? Well? 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.880 I needed a job like anyone else, and I took 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.520 the test service tests. I did. I went to Queen's 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.200 College history degree. You got a four year degree from 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.080 Queen's College. I did. He had a four year a 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.000 degree from Queen's College, a really, really good school. And 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:04.400 you wanted to you decide you want to go to 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.480 the department. Why I did? Well, Like most people, I 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.160 felt a calling. I felt that I wanted to help people. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.560 I felt it's something that's um very important job where 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.320 I've believed in the Constitution of the United States. I 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.960 believe in democracy, I believe in our rights. I think 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.120 many people have died for us to live the way 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.680 we are. And I'm not just talking about officers. I'm 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.440 talking about soldiers. We're talking about World War Two. My 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.840 uncle was in the Battle of the Bulge, got a 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:38.520 purple heart there my cousin fort in Vietnam. I mean, look, 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.960 I believe that democracy is the best form of government 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:44.240 that that that's out there now. And I think that 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.640 as a police officer, you are the front line of 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.560 democracy at work. And you attached a lot of pride 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.000 to wearing that uniform, you know, of being a New 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.440 York City police officer. That was a job with a 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.680 lot of integrity. Absolutely, So describe your career. Do you 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.640 were there twenty one years? So you're a patrolman, right, 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.960 I wonder what happened. Yeah, I worked in the tenth Precinct. 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.960 That worked in tenth is On in Chelsea. There's a 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.040 lot of prostitution um in the area. Made made a 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.639 lot of arrests in that and then I got my 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.600 master's degree from New York Institutent Technology, got promoted to 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.959 sergeant and went to South Jamaica and I worked there 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.360 for a while. I also worked in uh the one 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.040 on nine and Flushing Queens. From there, I won a 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.280 scholarship for my PhD and eventually on one of the 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:34.200 few officers that managed to get the PhD. Yes, yes, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.040 I am you got. You got your PhD in Criminal Justice. Yes, 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.080 from New York Tech as well. No, that's from Sunni 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.040 Albany from UH you know, very respected UH criminal Justice school. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.320 Eventually got promoted to captain, and as captain I did 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.480 my UH I was in Queens, South uh is where 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.600 I worked, and eventually I was brought back into do 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.879 a very large project which was defending stop and frisk 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.440 for the department back in which I did and I 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.680 felt h pretty strongly that the department was doing the 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.040 right thing back then. They were not abusing their authority. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.359 At the time, we were doing less than a hundred thousand, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.680 and I was very confident we were doing the right thing. 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:17.679 After that, I retired and went to Malloy College in 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.240 Rockville Center, Queens, where I'm currently a professor and Associate 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.040 dean of criminal Justice. So you were in the department 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.240 what years from I was in there from three through 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.479 two thousand and four. During the time that you were 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.520 a police officer, did you or anybody you work with 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.000 ever have to put a chokehold on anybody? There were 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.240 times it wasn't illegal. I mean, it's still not illegal. 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.679 It's just something that UM is against the department guidelines. Right, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.480 So if you do it you can get fired. I've 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.040 seen chokeholds being done. I personally have not done them. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.520 But when you saw that done, you realize that this 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.880 would had to be done under those circumstances. It did 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.400 absolutely and I have to say at the time when 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.439 I saw the chokeholds done, I have to say that 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.400 they were a pretty successful way of bringing somebody down. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.480 But there was a danger in doing that, and that's 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:12.600 why the department eventually said chokeholds uh must not be done. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.520 You know, listen, I'm going to bring up the worst 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.320 cliche of all because it's nonetheless truer now than ever, 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:20.920 which is, you know, you always bitch about the cops 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.399 until you need one. My father's brother was in New 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.639 York City police officer years ago in the sixties. My 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:31.439 sister's former husband's family or police officers. My question for 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.919 you is what makes a good cop today? Um, I 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.320 do want to see educated officers. I think that's something. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.800 There's a two year requirement. Now there is a two 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.920 year and that that was also something that I helped 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:43.520 put in while I was on the place, and that's 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.240 been on the book since swim. This is since the nineties. 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.119 So I would like to see a four year degree. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.639 But I think more importantly what an officer needs is 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.280 an open mind. To be a democratic officer, you have 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.679 to balance the rights of people with the ability to 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.439 fight crime. And there's an interesting book called Tempered zeal And. 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.879 I think that describes exactly what a police officer needs. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.840 We want somebody that can think, Somebody that gets out 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.280 there and knows when it's enough. Somebody that gets out 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.040 there and says, Okay, I can arrest this guy. But 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.520 maybe I don't have to today. Maybe you know what, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:22.800 I don't have to write that summons today. Maybe not 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.800 giving a summons to these people playing chess is a 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.280 good thing. I need somebody out there that can think 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.440 like that the best choice long term, Yeah, what is 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.840 the best choice long term? Not these short term fixes 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:34.960 that that you know, we're gonna stop somebody riding a 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.119 bicycle in the city. Who's but the officer needs to 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.439 have that discretion, and that officer needs to be a 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.679 thinking officer, not somebody that's just a an automaton, not 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.520 a robot, Not somebody that just says, Okay, I'm gonna 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:49.680 get out there and and and I'm gonna call the boss. 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:51.840 Every time you know this, we're gonna write a summons, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:53.600 We're gonna make an arrest. And that's what's been going 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.879 on for twelve years. We've got to get away from 0:20:55.920 --> 0:21:00.520 that very very robotic. They've taken the discretion out eactly right. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.760 We need to get away from that robotic police officers. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.600 So I want to see a police officers that can think. 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.720 But more importantly, I want to see a police department 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.679 that's more transparent. This, I think is the most important 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.160 thing that the police department can do is open up. 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.480 You know, if you're so great, you know you have 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.080 to say, and you're the greatest, what are you doing 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.120 to address these problems? Show us let us in. Look, 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.280 why can't I anyone visit a CompStat meeting or or 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:27.680 a walk into the police academy. You know, you should 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.359 be welcome. You may have to get you know first 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.400 or whatever to make sure it's safe, but you're a citizen. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.919 You should be open up. Data, data, information. All of 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.520 these things are closed the department. The New York Times 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.800