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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers,

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Speaker 1: to hear their stories. What inspired their creations, what decisions

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Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influence their work. There are

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Speaker 1: thirty four thousand police officers in New York City and

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands more in departments across the country. We

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Speaker 1: give the police a lot of responsibility and a lot

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Speaker 1: of power. How they use that power, more specifically, how

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Speaker 1: they use force is central to the quality of our

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Speaker 1: democracy and one of the hottest topics in our society today.

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Speaker 1: The deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and Eric

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Speaker 1: Garner in New York City, both killed during controversial police encounters,

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Speaker 1: led to massive protests across the country and in New

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Speaker 1: York City to the apparent retaliity Tory assassination of two

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Speaker 1: police officers, Wenjin Lou and Rafael Ramos in late December,

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Speaker 1: the New York City Police Union had Patrick Lynch responded

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Speaker 1: to the officers deaths with this there's blood on many

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Speaker 1: hands tonight. Lynch went on to blame protesters and even

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Speaker 1: New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio that blood on

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Speaker 1: the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in

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Speaker 1: the Office of the Mayor. Last week in The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, Isabel Wilkerson wrote that the protests across the

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Speaker 1: country quote are a response to unprosecuted police brutality, but

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Speaker 1: are also a plea for recognition of African Americans humanity unquote.

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Speaker 1: How people feel about police and policing maybe as divisive

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Speaker 1: now as it has ever been. I wanted to know

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Speaker 1: how we came to this point and how we might

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Speaker 1: make things better. I started by talking to two people,

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Speaker 1: John Eterno and David Kennedy, who have been working on

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Speaker 1: policing issues long before the conversation became the current front

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Speaker 1: page shouting match. Both have deep street experience. Johnny Turno,

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Speaker 1: my first guest, teaches criminal justice at Malloy College. He

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Speaker 1: is a retired New York City Police captain and once

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Speaker 1: defended stop and frisk, but not how it came to

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Speaker 1: be used. Under the Bloomberg administration. After two thousand and

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Speaker 1: two through two thousand and eleven, we climb from less

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Speaker 1: than a hundred thousand stops to seven hundred thousand stops,

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Speaker 1: mostly in minority neighborhoods. And this this is the problem.

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Speaker 1: The police became like an army of occupation in these neighborhoods.

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Speaker 1: And this is what the Floyd case stands for. Floyd

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Speaker 1: is a case where the Center for Constitutional Rights sued

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Speaker 1: the city regarding their stop behaviors. Who is Floyd and

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Speaker 1: what happened in the case, Well, these are minority individuals

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Speaker 1: who are stopped illegally by the police. One was a

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Speaker 1: medical student um and Judge Sinlan in the case essentially

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Speaker 1: finds that the police department, through its policy, was the

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Speaker 1: facto racist in what it was doing. Do you think

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Speaker 1: the New York City Police Department is the factor racist?

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think officers individual or do you

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Speaker 1: think that the policies can result in racists? I think

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Speaker 1: the policy of stopping first did result in an and

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Speaker 1: in the fact of racist pattern that Judge Sinlan talks about.

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Speaker 1: And she's very clear in her finding. The officers uh

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Speaker 1: And again I talked to many officers, most almost all

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Speaker 1: all officers are very high upstanding, honest working citizens doing

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Speaker 1: a very very tough job. But what officers swear an

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Speaker 1: oath to They don't swear an oath to bring down crime.

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Speaker 1: They swear an oath to protect the Constitution of the

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Speaker 1: United States, and that means that you have to allow

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Speaker 1: free speech. You have to allow people the maximum freedom

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Speaker 1: that you can within the law. So you have to

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Speaker 1: enforce the law while at the same time following law.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, would stop and frisk officers went

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Speaker 1: too far? Why because they're under these heavy quotas. Rookie

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Speaker 1: officers are sent out there told we want you to

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Speaker 1: do ten stop in first today, so they would go

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Speaker 1: out then they stopped like ten people that they saw.

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Speaker 1: Officers were doing this because of all of these pressures,

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Speaker 1: according to Judge Finlin, and I would agree with that.

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Speaker 1: And because of all these pressures, they're stopping innocent, mostly

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Speaker 1: minority youth. They're finding very few violations of the law.

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Speaker 1: They're finding very few guns, which was what Commissioner Kelly

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Speaker 1: at the time stated was the reason why they were

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Speaker 1: doing all this, but they weren't getting much. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: really an effective thing. Now, with Commissioner Bratton back, we've

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Speaker 1: gone down to less than a hundred thousand stops, and

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Speaker 1: they're more effective stops. They're finding guns more often than

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Speaker 1: they did under Commissioner Kelly. And I would also say

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Speaker 1: that under Commissioner Kelly, crime was also dropping, So that's

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing. But with crime dropping, they're or

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Speaker 1: less criminal suspects on the street, or there should be

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Speaker 1: less criminal suspects. So how do you go from a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand stops or legally doing a hundred thousand stops,

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Speaker 1: or to doing seven hundred thousand stops if there are

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Speaker 1: less criminal suspects? The law requires officers to have something

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Speaker 1: called reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is a level of proof

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Speaker 1: that people needed, like you have to be kind sure

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Speaker 1: that the person is is doing something wrong. So you

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Speaker 1: can't just, like on a mere hunt, say I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: stop that guy. That's illegal. It's unconstitutional. You need to

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Speaker 1: have reasonable suspicion to legally stop someone. And this court

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Speaker 1: found that the stops being made by the New York

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Speaker 1: City Police Department war unconstitutional according to the fourth and

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Speaker 1: fourteenth And the result of that ruin well, there's frisking.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a good question because Commissioner Kelly was continually

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Speaker 1: saying I'm not changing the policy even after this was rendered.

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Speaker 1: And you have to understand though that during the time

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg. It's kind of like a a steam being

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Speaker 1: put in a bottle. There's all the steam and minority

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Speaker 1: communities and building and building and building, and then the

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Speaker 1: Blasio comes in and he kind of pops the cork

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Speaker 1: and all the steams coming out and people are all.

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Speaker 1: You know, people didn't complain under Kelly and Bloomberg, because

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Speaker 1: what was the point. I think people have a right

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Speaker 1: to say what they're as long as it's peaceful. You

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Speaker 1: know that, And I'm fine with that. I'm even fine

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Speaker 1: with the police officers themselves. Um, as long as it's

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Speaker 1: peaceful and it's in the spirit said that the Blasio

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Speaker 1: had blood in his hands. Well, what was your reaction

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Speaker 1: when you heard them? Um? There is a rhetoric in

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Speaker 1: in in this game. Sometimes the rhetoric goes a bit

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Speaker 1: too far, and uh, I think they've never seen it.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit far. But I do think Pat lynch

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Speaker 1: Is is more much more concerned more about how his

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Speaker 1: officers are perceived. He wants that respect that officers deserve,

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Speaker 1: and I agree with that. Uh, these officers are out

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Speaker 1: there doing a tough job and he's right, they need

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Speaker 1: to be respected. And he felt a mad to Blasio

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Speaker 1: disrespected them. Did he go a bit far with his rhetoric. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, things have gotten out of hand and we

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Speaker 1: need somebody to, you know, bring the level back down.

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Speaker 1: Minority communities are upset because of the unconstitutional stops that

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Speaker 1: were done over years and years. We're not talking about

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Speaker 1: it a day or or a few unconstitutional stops. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about wholesale stops done in um mostly minority neighborhoods

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Speaker 1: that have been done. Seven stops in one year is

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Speaker 1: to me is incredulous. Uh, And it seems like a

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Speaker 1: waste of money too. Most people I know look at

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Speaker 1: the police. They realize it's a tough job. They realized

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Speaker 1: they're not paid very much money. They see what happened

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Speaker 1: with Eric Garner, and they think, why the finest police

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Speaker 1: department in the world has four guys that can't bring

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Speaker 1: down some guy that's selling lucy cigarettes on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Why can't they bring him down without killing him? Well,

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Speaker 1: when you saw the Eric Garner footage, what did the

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Speaker 1: first thing you thought? Well, first, it's a lot more complicated.

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Speaker 1: If somebody doesn't want to be handcuffed, that's whoever it is.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to handcuff them. It is. And now

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Speaker 1: these officers, these officers. When I saw the film, um,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a problem with the use of force.

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Speaker 1: But here's my problem. I hear I can't breathe. I

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Speaker 1: can't breathe, and it's very audible on the tape about

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Speaker 1: eleven times, and they ignore that Eric Graner is cuffed.

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Speaker 1: Now it's over. They haven't coughed and they didn't do anything.

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Speaker 1: That's my problem getting him cufed. I understand you have

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Speaker 1: to do what you have to do to get him coughed.

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Speaker 1: There should have been a shift, that's right, and that

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Speaker 1: didn't happen. But didn't happen, you'd have to ask the officers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. There was a sergeant on the scene too,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. But what should have happened at the

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Speaker 1: end of that is that Eric Ghana Mr Ghanna should

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Speaker 1: have immediately immediately without without stop. He should have been

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Speaker 1: sat up, and he should have been taken to the

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Speaker 1: hospital immediate without any hesitation. When you hear something like

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Speaker 1: my I have hard palpitations on my I can't breathe,

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, that is the queue for the

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Speaker 1: officers to do. Something. So in terms of the use

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Speaker 1: of force, I didn't have a problem. Do you find

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Speaker 1: that that's the difficulty is for them in an instant

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Speaker 1: to shift from being the aggressor and the police officer

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Speaker 1: who's trying to incapacitate you and handcuff you too in

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Speaker 1: a split sitt of the in turner and then care

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Speaker 1: for you and become like a QUEZ I E. M. S.

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Speaker 1: Technician and make sure you're okay. That is the difficulty.

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Speaker 1: That is one of the most difficult things for a

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Speaker 1: police officer to do it. I'm glad you you you

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Speaker 1: pointed that out. How hard it is for police officers

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Speaker 1: to initially get very aggressive and then switch it off

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Speaker 1: and become the helper. That is one of the most

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Speaker 1: difficult things that for police officers to do. But on

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Speaker 1: the flip side, they should have. That is what being

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Speaker 1: a democrat trained to do. That they are and that's

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Speaker 1: what being a democratic police officer is all about. And

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Speaker 1: and but understand Alec that being a police officer is

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Speaker 1: not a clean, easy, simple Yeah it's you. You want

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Speaker 1: to say. Remember, I'm from south Shore, Long Island, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm from Massa Pekra, which is the NYPD Rivieria. I'm

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Speaker 1: someone that if I didn't end up doing for a

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Speaker 1: living what I ended up doing now, there's every chance

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Speaker 1: to believe I'd be running down an alley but with

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Speaker 1: a gun in my hand of a narcotic squad. All

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Speaker 1: the men who are in that job. I'm so different

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Speaker 1: than them. Who's to say how I would I acknowledge that.

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Speaker 1: All I'm saying is is that people in this city

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Speaker 1: believe that when the cops do something wrong, they never

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Speaker 1: get punished. And here's the PS. Guess who's gonna pay

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Speaker 1: Garner's family in a civil settlement? Well, I agree, how

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Speaker 1: much money is spent every year by the city to

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Speaker 1: settle cases against the cops? How much it's ridiculous. There's

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, and I understand that.

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Speaker 1: But let's let's just go back, of course, So let's

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Speaker 1: go back to to Pat Lynch. Though for for a

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Speaker 1: second he does talk about money. But I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: rightfully so, I think that officers deserve um a race,

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Speaker 1: and I would I would be out there and I

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Speaker 1: would say, yes, they doss ave more money. Their job

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Speaker 1: is that tough. But on the flip side, we have

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Speaker 1: to be reasonable and responsible with the coffers of the city.

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Speaker 1: But the city right now is in very good shape.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not like we're back. I don't care

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Speaker 1: if the city was in good shape or bad ship.

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars

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Speaker 1: settling the cases. Just get a fair wage. What I

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Speaker 1: believe is I want to go even further, meaning I

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Speaker 1: want there to be less cops and they're better trained.

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Speaker 1: I want to sit there and I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the physical requirements, the fitness requirements, the language requirements.

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Speaker 1: I want cops to have a starting salary of a

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a person. But you

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Speaker 1: want to know something, They've got four years of college.

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Speaker 1: They can pass the physical fitness test like nobody's I mean,

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Speaker 1: I want these guys, men and women to be ready.

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Speaker 1: Do you think you have that in the police department now? Well,

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Speaker 1: being a police officer is a lot more complicated than

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Speaker 1: than It's not necessarily just being you can, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: being superman. It's it really does require the ability to

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Speaker 1: not only fight crime, but also the ability to be understanding,

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Speaker 1: the ability to work with communities. Uh So, you're not

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Speaker 1: just out there, you know, enforcing the law. You're also

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Speaker 1: a community officer. You're an officer, and that would be

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Speaker 1: part of the training I'm talking about. They would have

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Speaker 1: more of that training as well. Yeah. I don't want

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Speaker 1: anybody to be Batman, That's that's one. I want them

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Speaker 1: to have capabilities in all aspects. I think we should

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Speaker 1: have better cops and we have slightly fewer of them

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Speaker 1: and pay them more money, a lot more money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a possibility. The job a very difficult job to get.

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Speaker 1: Understand that the city is already down about six thousand

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Speaker 1: cops from its high point where they had forty. It's

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Speaker 1: a thing. Yes, I do. I think. I think you

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Speaker 1: need officers out there, officers is back up or officers

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Speaker 1: who can be trained in very specific types of work,

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Speaker 1: domestic violence officers, officers who are capable at all different

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Speaker 1: types of things. So we're not necessarily looking for, you know, Batman,

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Speaker 1: as you say, We're looking for people who are uh educated,

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Speaker 1: who are understanding, who are willing to keep the discretion,

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Speaker 1: who have that's the key, and I think that discretion

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Speaker 1: has been taken away. And I'm glad you said that

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Speaker 1: back in my day, there was far more discretion, and

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Speaker 1: there were times when you'd stop somebody and you know,

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Speaker 1: you'd say to them, have a nice day, and you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't give him a summons. But for quite a while

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Speaker 1: there officers were stopping people and just giving them something.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you a couple of examples. Chess players

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Speaker 1: and in wood these guys are just playing, you know,

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Speaker 1: the cement board. They're just playing chess in in the

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Speaker 1: city and along coome a couple of cops. What do

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Speaker 1: they do They write them summons is for being in

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Speaker 1: the park without children. You gotta be kidding me. Back

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Speaker 1: in my day, a couple of guys playing chest but

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even looked at it. And then they have

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Speaker 1: the donut caper in uh in Brooklyn. These are women.

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Speaker 1: They're eating donuts in a park, but they don't have

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Speaker 1: children with them. Officers run up to them because they

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Speaker 1: don't have children. There is a law about this. They

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Speaker 1: all get summons is for eating donuts. One of the

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Speaker 1: most egregious ones is in Queens where a woman and

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Speaker 1: a man, an elderly woman and a man. They're driving

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Speaker 1: in their cards. She doesn't have a seatbelt on. She's

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Speaker 1: going to get prescription drugs. The officers stopped the car.

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Speaker 1: They asked for identification, and the woman says, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I don't have identification. It's it's it's not on me.

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Speaker 1: I I don't know. So they order the man her husband, elderly,

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Speaker 1: to go get it the houses a few blocks away,

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Speaker 1: and meantimes she gets her prescription drugs, comes out the

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Speaker 1: right every summons for the no seat belt, using her

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Speaker 1: prescription drug bottle as the identification. The man then comes back,

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Speaker 1: exhausted on a freezing cold night. I mean it's like

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Speaker 1: you know today, it's cold outside. Um, and he gets

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Speaker 1: back he was here, I have the identification on. The

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Speaker 1: officers say, oh, we don't need it. We already wrote

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Speaker 1: the summons. The man subsequently died and had a heart

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Speaker 1: attack from his exertion. Well, I was working. If you

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Speaker 1: stopped an elderly couple, you know, you might escort them home,

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Speaker 1: or you might just say, gee, I'm sorry, just put

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Speaker 1: you see about on have a nice day. But officers

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Speaker 1: had to reflect these things in their numbers, and at

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Speaker 1: the time Pat Lynch, to his credit, said, don't blame

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Speaker 1: the beat cop, blame NYPD management. And he took out

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Speaker 1: full page ads, which I agreed with it. This was

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Speaker 1: certainly a policy developed by the higher ups telling officers

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Speaker 1: you're gonna do this, so that discretion that you brought

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Speaker 1: up has been lost for years. Where did you grow

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Speaker 1: up bayside Queens and anybody in the family in the department?

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Speaker 1: Uh No, nobody the first Yeah, how did that come about? Well?

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Speaker 1: I needed a job like anyone else, and I took

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Speaker 1: the test service tests. I did. I went to Queen's

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Speaker 1: College history degree. You got a four year degree from

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Speaker 1: Queen's College. I did. He had a four year a

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Speaker 1: degree from Queen's College, a really, really good school. And

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Speaker 1: you wanted to you decide you want to go to

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Speaker 1: the department. Why I did? Well, Like most people, I

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Speaker 1: felt a calling. I felt that I wanted to help people.

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Speaker 1: I felt it's something that's um very important job where

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Speaker 1: I've believed in the Constitution of the United States. I

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Speaker 1: believe in democracy, I believe in our rights. I think

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Speaker 1: many people have died for us to live the way

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Speaker 1: we are. And I'm not just talking about officers. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about soldiers. We're talking about World War Two. My

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Speaker 1: uncle was in the Battle of the Bulge, got a

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Speaker 1: purple heart there my cousin fort in Vietnam. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: I believe that democracy is the best form of government

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Speaker 1: that that that's out there now. And I think that

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Speaker 1: as a police officer, you are the front line of

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Speaker 1: democracy at work. And you attached a lot of pride

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Speaker 1: to wearing that uniform, you know, of being a New

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Speaker 1: York City police officer. That was a job with a

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Speaker 1: lot of integrity. Absolutely, So describe your career. Do you

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Speaker 1: were there twenty one years? So you're a patrolman, right,

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Speaker 1: I wonder what happened. Yeah, I worked in the tenth Precinct.

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Speaker 1: That worked in tenth is On in Chelsea. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of prostitution um in the area. Made made a

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Speaker 1: lot of arrests in that and then I got my

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Speaker 1: master's degree from New York Institutent Technology, got promoted to

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Speaker 1: sergeant and went to South Jamaica and I worked there

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Speaker 1: for a while. I also worked in uh the one

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Speaker 1: on nine and Flushing Queens. From there, I won a

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Speaker 1: scholarship for my PhD and eventually on one of the

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Speaker 1: few officers that managed to get the PhD. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I am you got. You got your PhD in Criminal Justice. Yes,

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Speaker 1: from New York Tech as well. No, that's from Sunni

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Speaker 1: Albany from UH you know, very respected UH criminal Justice school.

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Speaker 1: Eventually got promoted to captain, and as captain I did

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Speaker 1: my UH I was in Queens, South uh is where

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Speaker 1: I worked, and eventually I was brought back into do

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Speaker 1: a very large project which was defending stop and frisk

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Speaker 1: for the department back in which I did and I

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Speaker 1: felt h pretty strongly that the department was doing the

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Speaker 1: right thing back then. They were not abusing their authority.

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Speaker 1: At the time, we were doing less than a hundred thousand,

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Speaker 1: and I was very confident we were doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: After that, I retired and went to Malloy College in

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Speaker 1: Rockville Center, Queens, where I'm currently a professor and Associate

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Speaker 1: dean of criminal Justice. So you were in the department

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Speaker 1: what years from I was in there from three through

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four. During the time that you were

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Speaker 1: a police officer, did you or anybody you work with

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Speaker 1: ever have to put a chokehold on anybody? There were

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Speaker 1: times it wasn't illegal. I mean, it's still not illegal.

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Speaker 1: It's just something that UM is against the department guidelines. Right,

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Speaker 1: So if you do it you can get fired. I've

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Speaker 1: seen chokeholds being done. I personally have not done them.

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Speaker 1: But when you saw that done, you realize that this

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Speaker 1: would had to be done under those circumstances. It did

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Speaker 1: absolutely and I have to say at the time when

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Speaker 1: I saw the chokeholds done, I have to say that

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Speaker 1: they were a pretty successful way of bringing somebody down.

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Speaker 1: But there was a danger in doing that, and that's

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Speaker 1: why the department eventually said chokeholds uh must not be done.

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Speaker 1: You know, listen, I'm going to bring up the worst

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Speaker 1: cliche of all because it's nonetheless truer now than ever,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, you always bitch about the cops

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Speaker 1: until you need one. My father's brother was in New

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Speaker 1: York City police officer years ago in the sixties. My

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Speaker 1: sister's former husband's family or police officers. My question for

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Speaker 1: you is what makes a good cop today? Um, I

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Speaker 1: do want to see educated officers. I think that's something.

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Speaker 1: There's a two year requirement. Now there is a two

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Speaker 1: year and that that was also something that I helped

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Speaker 1: put in while I was on the place, and that's

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Speaker 1: been on the book since swim. This is since the nineties.

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Speaker 1: So I would like to see a four year degree.

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Speaker 1: But I think more importantly what an officer needs is

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Speaker 1: an open mind. To be a democratic officer, you have

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Speaker 1: to balance the rights of people with the ability to

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Speaker 1: fight crime. And there's an interesting book called Tempered zeal And.

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Speaker 1: I think that describes exactly what a police officer needs.

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Speaker 1: We want somebody that can think, Somebody that gets out

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Speaker 1: there and knows when it's enough. Somebody that gets out

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Speaker 1: there and says, Okay, I can arrest this guy. But

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't have to today. Maybe you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to write that summons today. Maybe not

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Speaker 1: giving a summons to these people playing chess is a

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Speaker 1: good thing. I need somebody out there that can think

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Speaker 1: like that the best choice long term, Yeah, what is

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Speaker 1: the best choice long term? Not these short term fixes

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Speaker 1: that that you know, we're gonna stop somebody riding a

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Speaker 1: bicycle in the city. Who's but the officer needs to

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Speaker 1: have that discretion, and that officer needs to be a

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Speaker 1: thinking officer, not somebody that's just a an automaton, not

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Speaker 1: a robot, Not somebody that just says, Okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get out there and and and I'm gonna call the boss.

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Speaker 1: Every time you know this, we're gonna write a summons,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna make an arrest. And that's what's been going

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Speaker 1: on for twelve years. We've got to get away from

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Speaker 1: that very very robotic. They've taken the discretion out eactly right.

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Speaker 1: We need to get away from that robotic police officers.

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Speaker 1: So I want to see a police officers that can think.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, I want to see a police department

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Speaker 1: that's more transparent. This, I think is the most important

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Speaker 1: thing that the police department can do is open up.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're so great, you know you have

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Speaker 1: to say, and you're the greatest, what are you doing

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Speaker 1: to address these problems? Show us let us in. Look,

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Speaker 1: why can't I anyone visit a CompStat meeting or or

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Speaker 1: a walk into the police academy. You know, you should

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Speaker 1: be welcome. You may have to get you know first

398
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Speaker 1: or whatever to make sure it's safe, but you're a citizen.

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Speaker 1: You should be open up. Data, data, information. All of

400
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Speaker 1: these things are closed the department. The New York Times

401
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Speaker 1: had to sue the police Department to get to get

402
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Speaker 1: data from them. That's unconscionable. This is data that that

403
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Speaker 1: that we the taxpayers are paying for that data should

404
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Speaker 1: be widely available. There's no reason not to. So this

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Speaker 1: way we if we have the data, we can do

406
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Speaker 1: these studies to test whether or not a new practice

407
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: might work. Stopping first data. The only reason that data

408
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Speaker 1: came out is because they were sued. But before they

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Speaker 1: were sued, that data was only in the police department

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Speaker 1: and nobody else could view it. That's wrong. We need

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Speaker 1: a police department. We need a different way of paradigm shift,

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Speaker 1: a way of thinking where we're transparent. And when I

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Speaker 1: tell you that being a police officer is a difficult thing,

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Speaker 1: I I mean that it's difficult, but I believe. I

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Speaker 1: believe in democratic society. I don't want to live in

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Speaker 1: Nazi Germany. I want to live into me. I love

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Speaker 1: my country, I love the constitution, I love this place.

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Speaker 1: That's why I became a police officer. And I think

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Speaker 1: most people become police officers they believe in our country.

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Speaker 1: If you're a police officer today, and I mean today,

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Speaker 1: like right this moment, in the wake of Ferguson and

422
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Speaker 1: Garner and uh the two police officers that were murdered

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Speaker 1: uh here in the city recently, you just look at

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Speaker 1: the way things are now, it's it's so hostile, it's

425
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Speaker 1: so tense. What do you think the average police officer

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Speaker 1: who's a good man or woman who wants to do

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Speaker 1: their job, what do you think that person wants the

428
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: citizens of New York to know about the police department.

429
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: They want to be supported by the by by most citizens.

430
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: And I think that that's that's something that they really crave.

431
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: They're out there defending, putting their lives on the line

432
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: every day, and I think officers, the typical officer, would

433
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: like to feel somewhat appreciated. So the next time you

434
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,479
Speaker 1: see a cop out there, you know, thank them for

435
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: for doing the job that they do, don't just carse them.

436
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 1: I do think that minority communities right now are up

437
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: in arms, and I think in some cases rightfully so.

438
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: And when we look at the situation in New York

439
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: City where we've seen all of these stopping frisks and

440
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: uh this building up over time, I think part of

441
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: the democratic process is allowing people to peacefully protest. And

442
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: I think that's part of what the police are doing

443
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: right now. They're peacefully probably they're exercising their democratic right

444
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: and it shows you what a great country we live in.

445
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: What do you miss about being a cup I missed

446
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: my friends. Actually that's that's really what I missed. A brotherhood.

447
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: It is, it is, it's a family. I do feel

448
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 1: it when I go away. I'll go to different places,

449
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: and if I say I'm a police officer there and

450
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: I talked to other police officers, there is a difference.

451
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: People's eyes open up when I testify your talk and

452
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: they realized that I was a cop. It does change things,

453
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: and I'm glad for that brotherhood. Johnny Turno is the

454
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: co author of the crime numbers game Management by Manipulation.

455
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: The protests against the police are in response to recent events,

456
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: but history plays a role to Brian Stevenson heads up

457
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: the Equal Justice Initiative in Montgomery, Alabama. He thinks history

458
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: and our response to historical events has a lot to

459
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: do with contemporary social problems. We've been acculturated into believing

460
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: that you never back down, you never never missed an absolutely,

461
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: and I think actually, as a country, that's our big

462
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: is problem. All we do is tell people around the

463
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: world how great we are. That's right, and that arrogance

464
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: actually sets us up for the kind of conflicts that

465
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: then follows. I used to get mad at my parents

466
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: for not taking me to town because we lived out

467
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: in the country there's nothing to do. But they didn't

468
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: want me to go with them in town because they

469
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: didn't want me to see them humiliated by any white

470
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: person that they encountered. And it accumulates these injuries, this burden,

471
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: this problem, and we haven't talked about it. And because

472
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: of that, we've now set ourselves up for the conflicts

473
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: and controversies that were still experiencing. Where the police are

474
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: the face of this racial order, and this presumption of

475
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: guilt haunts us and follows all these young people called.

476
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: The Bureau of Justice is now reporting that one in

477
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: three black male babies born in the twenty one century

478
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: is expected to go to jail for a prison that

479
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: wasn't during the twentieth century, wasn't during the nineteenth century.

480
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: It became it's only getting worse. That's Brian Stevenson from

481
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: the Equal Justice Initiative in Montgomery, Alabama. My full conversation

482
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: with him will be out next month. Coming up next,

483
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: I talked with David Kennedy, who brings communities and police

484
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: officers together to talk and the results are surprising. I'm

485
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. David

486
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,239
Speaker 1: Kennedy teaches criminal justice at John Jay College. He is

487
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: the architect of Operations Ceasefire, a pioneering violent crime reduction

488
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: strategy that continues to be implemented in big cities across

489
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: the country. Kennedy's work, which involves sit downs with police

490
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: and gang leaders, helps address what he considers the larger problem.

491
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: The broken relationship is pretty much with us all the time.

492
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: And that means it's not about stopping frisk, it's not

493
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: about this program, it's not about this policing fad. It's

494
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: much deeper than that. And I've been traveling this geography

495
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: for thirty years now, and I spent a lot of

496
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: time with cops, and I spent a lot of time

497
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: with what we think of as the good people in

498
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. And I spent a lot of time with

499
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: gang members and drug dealers. And if there's one one

500
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: thing that folks like us on the outside need to understand,

501
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: it's that when we have these moments, you know, white

502
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: folks and the cops, they talk about the incident, they

503
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: talk about the moment black folks talk about history and

504
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: they're historical experience. They're deeply historical anger, their present frustrations

505
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: that will crystallize around the moments. But it's not about

506
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: the moment. It's just that we see it in the moment. No,

507
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: what is it about your own background? I mean, from

508
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: what I read, you were raised in Detroit outside Detroit,

509
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: inside Detroit, And what is it about your background that

510
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: you went on to become And then this is a

511
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: glib uh maybe way of putting it, but to the

512
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: gang whisperer that you became. That's funny because the the

513
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: head of the New Jersey State Police once gave me

514
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: the highest compliment I think I've ever gotten, and he

515
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: said I was a cop whisper So, um, I've been

516
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: really lucky to play both sides of the fence. The

517
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: thing that got my attention thirty years ago, I was

518
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: a budding journalist. I wanted to be John McPhee and

519
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: work for the New York or something like that. And

520
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: the work that I was doing at the time, which

521
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: was staff writing for an academic institution. I was not

522
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: an academic. I wasn't professor, wasn't graduate student. I was

523
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: at Harvard at Harvard, at the Kennedy schoolt Harvard, and

524
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: the assignments I got at that time in the mid

525
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties got me into the most dangerous neighborhoods in

526
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: the country, and sort of outside actual insurrection or something

527
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: like that, South Central l A. And places like that,

528
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: Washington Heights and the very peak of the crack Heyres

529
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: when you could buy kilos of powder on the street

530
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: without getting out of your car. And the thing that

531
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: you see is an absolute horror show. You see violence

532
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: and despair and fear and hopelessness. And at that time

533
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: you know young men thick on the ground and wheelchairs

534
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: and walkers, and these are gunshot one survivors. The streets

535
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: look like a mash unit. But when you spend time

536
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: there and you really come to understand the experience of

537
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: those communities, what is the worst about those neighborhoods. So

538
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: we talk about schools and healthcare and economic opportunity and

539
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: all those things are really, really, really important, but the grinding,

540
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: day to day insults in the community are violence. Everybody's

541
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: getting arrest, didn't go into prison, which has changed over

542
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: the years. It's gotten much worse since I first set

543
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: foot into the streets. Um, it's an epidemic. Yeah, and

544
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: it is an absolutely broken relationship between people in those

545
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: communities and the criminal justice system. There's nothing of the

546
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: moment about that. That's not Eric Garner, it's not this,

547
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: it's not that, it's not Oscar Grant. It is pervasive.

548
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: And then these moments happened when the community and people

549
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: outside the community kind of find their posture and find

550
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: their voice, and those of us who aren't there say, ah,

551
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: something's changed. But the only thing that's changed is the crystallization. Well,

552
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: in the work that you did, the first job you have,

553
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: the first police department that you go to work with

554
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: in an official capacity was who Boston Police Department, So

555
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: you got to work with. But that's where the ceasefire

556
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: thing was. That's and that was your thing you created

557
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of others, with a team of people,

558
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: and you can and take us through essentially what was

559
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: but what was going on in Boston then? And what

560
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: was ceasefire? What did you propose? So the most obvious

561
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: worst issue in these neighborhoods is just spectacularly awful levels

562
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: of violence, so that the national homicide rate right now

563
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: is down to about four per hundred thousand. Where we've

564
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: been patting ourselves on the back for twenty years. We're

565
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: sitting in New York City, and especially in New York City,

566
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: but nationally as well, that crime is down and down

567
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,479
Speaker 1: and down and down and down, and it is that's right.

568
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: What we have been dealing with is this long decline

569
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: and the Crack era into the heroin epidemic. Things are

570
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: much better. We all know that for hundred thousand, I

571
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: work in neighborhoods where after the Crack declines and all

572
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: the rest of it, young black men are dying at

573
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: the rate of over five hundred per hundred thousand every

574
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: single year. And you walk those neighborhoods and there are

575
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, rain soaked street shrines to the dead on

576
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: the corner, and r I P. Chalked on the side

577
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: of buildings, and bullet holes in the buildings. And these

578
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: days it's fashionable for the young men to tattoo the

579
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: names of their dead on their forearms and their fingers

580
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and next year and these are places where there has

581
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: been no peace dividend. Twenty years ago, when Crack had

582
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: not received it, it was even worse. So we set

583
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: up in Boston to try to do something about that,

584
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: and very rapidly, not from you know, econometric research or

585
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: anything fancy, but from spending huge amounts of time with

586
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: street cops, in probation officers and hanging out with gang

587
00:32:52,800 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: members and just being there. It became immediately apparent that

588
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: what was going on was not what we on the

589
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: outside thought was going on. This was a conversation then

590
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: about drug markets and gun availability and cultures of violence

591
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: and cultures of poverty and the you know, dire impact

592
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: of being exposed to gangster rap and all this kind

593
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: of thing. In fact, what was going on on the

594
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: ground was that there was a very small number of

595
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: drug crews that were shooting each other. And if you

596
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: were in those drug crews and you were on the

597
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: street for ten years, about a seventh of you were

598
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: killed by guns, and statistically everybody left standing had been shot.

599
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: And it also turned out that nobody involved really liked

600
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: it very much. Right, we think the gang members are

601
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: getting rich, and there's a prison industrial complex and they

602
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: need the streets to feed the engine, and there are

603
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: no institutions left except the Black Church, and the community

604
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: doesn't really care about the violence and everything that everybody

605
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: thought about that was wrong. The kids didn't want to die,

606
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: they didn't want to go to prison. The cops were frustrated.

607
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: The community hates the violence, and nobody liked it. And

608
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: so what turned out to be possible, and what we

609
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: did was we created these interventions. We called them forums.

610
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: They get called collins now, but they're actually moments in

611
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: which the cops and social service providers and ministers and

612
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: ex gang members and the street guys all get together

613
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: in a room and everybody who's not a gang member

614
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: and a drug dealer looks at those who are and says,

615
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: this has gonna stop. You know, we know who you are,

616
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: and we know what you're doing. We actually don't think

617
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: you like it. You want to kill you. We don't

618
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: want to kill you. We don't want to lock you

619
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: any for We don't want you to kill each other.

620
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: We especially don't want to go knock on your mother's

621
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: door and tell her that you're dead. So this is

622
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: going to stop. Will help you if you let us?

623
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: There are all these social services there for you. Even

624
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: you don't take the services, your community needs you to

625
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: understand that there is no excuse for shooting each other.

626
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: So your community insists that you stopped that, and rather

627
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: than hiding in the bushes and bringing d e a

628
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: down on your head or stopping everybody that moves in

629
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: your neighborhood, we're just going to tell you today that

630
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: the next body that hits the ground, everybody in the

631
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: crew that did that is going to get our full attention.

632
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for your time, You're free to go. In Boston,

633
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: we saw a two thirds reduction in the youth killing

634
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: in about eighteen months in Kansas City. This year they

635
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: got thirty in New Orleans. Over the last two years

636
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: they've gotten in Boston. When you're talking about that period

637
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: that you were doing it then was what years began

638
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: in ninet The average number of homicides in the city

639
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: when we started was about a hundred annually, and in nine,

640
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: which was the last year they did it for real,

641
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: it was down to thirty one. And from I mean

642
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: a lot of what I pulled was from the New

643
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: Yorker profile on you from about five years ago or

644
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: at six years ago. In two thousand nine, you've been

645
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: in North Carolina. Even is this anti Boston, New York,

646
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: Los Angeles? If I missed a few maybe um I'm sorry,

647
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: but but you've been around. Where are they getting it right?

648
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: Where are they getting it better where they were? Is

649
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: there some innovation? Well, they're they're increasingly getting it right.

650
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: So we've been talking about stuff that's twenty years old

651
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: now and what was really pretty radical insurgent stuff just

652
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: isn't anymore. So there's a backbone to this way of

653
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: thinking about doing the work on the ground. The simple

654
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: operational backbone is, when you're talking about the worst stuff,

655
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: not many people do it, killing, killing your wife, standing

656
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: on a corner, selling drugs to pregnant women, you know,

657
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: in in the hardest hit communities, not very many people

658
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: do that. And because that's right, you can deal with

659
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: them in a very different way. You can load services

660
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: on them, you can load community influence on them, you

661
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: can put them on prior notice of their legal risk.

662
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: Those are not radical ideas anymore. What's so interesting about

663
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: that in the present moment is that from the beginning

664
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: it worked much better than anybody could possibly have reasonably bullieved.

665
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: We had two meetings like this in Boston and the

666
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: whole city changed ridiculous. As part of why people couldn't

667
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: believe it was real, just doesn't make I think that

668
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: was going to work. We didn't. We thought we were

669
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: at best. We thought we were up for years of

670
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: heavy lifting and uphill slog at the very best, and

671
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: the streets just flipped. What do you attribute that too?

672
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: So I already said nobody involved in this was what

673
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: anybody on the other side of the fence thought they

674
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: were right. And so that's one answer to each other

675
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: and know each other, and they profoundly misunderstood each other.

676
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: Kid goes a drive by, cops looks at that says, obviously,

677
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: you're an animalistic super predator with no morals and no

678
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: respect for human life. And then you sit down with

679
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: that young man and he says, I didn't want to

680
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: do it. Those guys are beefing with our guys. I

681
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: want to put my guns down, but they'll kill me anyway.

682
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: It seemed easier to do with than not to do it.

683
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: And my own boys will tear me up if I don't,

684
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: and they He looks at the entire Boston Police Department,

685
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: which they think of as able to do anything they want,

686
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: and literally would say they could have stopped me if

687
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: they wanted to. He really believes that, and the only

688
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: reason therefore that they that this happened is because they

689
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: don't care if we kill each other. And both sides

690
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: really believe that both sides are wrong, right, So mediating

691
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: some of that makes a big difference. But here's what

692
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: then turns out to be the lesson of the moment.

693
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: When you think the cops are your race enemy, when

694
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: they have always treated you with disrespect, when the community

695
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: sees them not being able to tell the difference between

696
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: the grandmother and the pastor and the guy on the

697
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: corner because they both get stopped and frisk you know,

698
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: all three of them get treated the same way, when

699
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: nobody you know, has ever gotten any help from the

700
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: police an occupying army. Then when you know who killed

701
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: your friend, when you know that somebody is coming to

702
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: get you, you don't call nine one one, You get

703
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: your friends, you get a gun, you take care of

704
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: it yourself. And then we look at that and the violence,

705
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: you know, the shooting that comes after that in retribution,

706
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: and the shooting that comes after that in retribution, and

707
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: we look at that and we say, this is a

708
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: broken community full of people with bad morals. What we

709
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: ought to be saying is this is a community that

710
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: has never trusted the police, doesn't expect any help from it,

711
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: and rather than working with the criminal justice system, is

712
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: taking care of itself. And when you sit down with

713
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: communities and say, we realize that almost everybody here is

714
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: fundamentally a good person, and even those who are misbehaving

715
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: aren't the monsters we think they are, and we're going

716
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: to treat you with respect, and we're going to begin

717
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: by saying to you, we want to keep you safe,

718
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: we want to keep you alive, we want to keep

719
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: you out of prison, and we want to work with

720
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: you so that we can do that. It turns out

721
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: that those communities are not nearly as broken as we think.

722
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: They don't really hate the police. They just don't want

723
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: the policing they've been getting, and when you give them

724
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: something different, they take it. Do you think that New

725
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: York right now is ripe for that kind of a program,

726
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: for a ceasefire type of program here now, or do

727
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: you think it's unlikely that will happen now in the

728
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: wake of those two killing And I certainly hope it's right,

729
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: because we started already. You have, Yeah, it's happening. The

730
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: first How did that get started? First? It started under

731
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: Bratton and the new Bratton administration, with the full support

732
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: of the mayor, who is looking at this even before

733
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: the election. So it's been a long time coming. But

734
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: the fact is that what the department is calling New

735
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: York ceasefire, their version of this is live in Brooklyn

736
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: North and a couple of associated precincts, And the first

737
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: of these face to face collins was held in Fort

738
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: Green and Brooklyn about a month ago. You describe how

739
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: that went. It was pretty amazing. Part of what's wonderful

740
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: about this is that this is really about people and

741
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: it's about relationships. The way you make this happen is

742
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: you identify the groups, the gangs, the drug cruise. You

743
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: look at the individuals in them. Each group has somebody

744
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: on probation and parole most days, most of the time.

745
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: To make the meeting happen, Probation parole reaches out to them,

746
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: says to them, you're going to be here at this time.

747
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: So they walk in and they see a roam full

748
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: of New York Police Department, the Brooklyn DA's representative, the U. S.

749
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office, Probation Parole, the Brooklyn North Patrol commander, ex

750
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: Gang member Service, providers cast of thousands, and they hear

751
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: some very very basic stuff. You are the most at

752
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: risk people in this city. Brooklyn right now is the

753
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: most dangerous borough in New York, beyond all the gentrification,

754
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: beyond all that fabled out there. Brown's Ville and East

755
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: New York are parallel universes. Might actually have been the

756
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: Bronx at the time, but Brooklyn and the Bronx are

757
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: where the action is right now in New York City.

758
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: We said earlier homicide risk four per hundred thousand for

759
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: everybody in the country. If you're in the street network,

760
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: it's three thousand per hundred thousand every single year. You know,

761
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: it's just astronomical. You are safer on the ground in

762
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: Afghanistan than being one of these guys. And everybody here

763
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: has organized to keep you alive and out of prison.

764
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: And we're about to sit down and talk to you

765
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: for an hour about how we're going to do that.

766
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: When we're done here, senior police representatives says, my officers

767
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: are going to serve your dinner. We would like you

768
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: to stay, will serve you pizza. We've got Soto, will

769
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: answer any of your questions. Please stay long, and brought

770
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: their mothers. Right, they were about and one of the

771
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 1: things that happened that night was that one of their

772
00:43:54,400 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: mothers came with them. Was furious, angry, suspicious doesn't cover it.

773
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: You're you're setting him up, this is this is a scam,

774
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: set him down in the chair. She went off to

775
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: where she was listened to this whole thing. He was

776
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: one of the first guys out the door when they

777
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: were free to go. She brought him back into the room,

778
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: made sure that he talked to everybody, thanked everybody for

779
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: making it happen, and anyway it works. Right, Scholars divide

780
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: some of what we're talking about into formal social control

781
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: and informal social control. And formal social control is the

782
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: cops and the badge and the gun, and the courts

783
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: in prison and probation and parol. Right, all that apparatus

784
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: of the state. We all think that's what controls crime. Right,

785
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: that's the thin blue line. The other scholarly categories informal

786
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: social control, and that's your mother, your your sense of shame,

787
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: your mother or your father, or your girlfriend, the girl

788
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: you want to be your girlfriend eighteen months from now,

789
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: and everything scholarship knows about this says that informal social control.

790
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: Trump's formal social control almost every time, and you and

791
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: your work and your programs have played off on them.

792
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: And we figured out how to teach this to practitioners, right,

793
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: and you can show the theory and the evaluations. None

794
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: of it punches through. Nobody believes it. So the the

795
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: public speaking version of this has been to say to

796
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: a room full of you know, season narcotics guys, when

797
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: you were growing up, who was afraid of the cops?

798
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: And like five to ten percent of the room will

799
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: raise their hand when you were growing up, who's afraid

800
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: of your mother? Right? And everybody in the room raises

801
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: their hand, because we're all afraid of our mothers. And

802
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: you get the mothers, you get the community, you get

803
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: that informal fabric going. That's what controls the violence and

804
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: what our history of policing the community, Jim Crow, the

805
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: Black Code, Separate but Equal, the FBI trying to blackmail

806
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, stop and frisk profiling. What all of

807
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: that has done is it has lost us the community,

808
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: and it has lost us that natural community crime control.

809
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: That's what we're dealing with right now, and that's what

810
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: we need to get back. I can't argue with you

811
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: about the informal social control because when I was pulled

812
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: over by the police for riding my bike the wrong

813
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: way on Ffth Avenue, it wasn't until I got home

814
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: and my wife said to me, please don't ride your

815
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: bike the wrong way on the streets anymore, because it's

816
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: only going to embarrass me and you and our family.

817
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: That was really the message that hit home. That's how

818
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: it really works, the informal I'm gonna remember that now.

819
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote you and say, let's say to my wife.

820
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: You know, David Kennedy said, it's informal social control you're

821
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: exercising on me. There is not just one way to

822
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: do policing. There are lots of ways to do policing.

823
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: And part of what's so awful out the shouting that's

824
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: going on around Garner and can't breathe and don't shoot

825
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: and all of that right now, is that the loudest

826
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: and dumbest voices on both sides have thephone the microphone.

827
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: And what a lot of us know is that there

828
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: is a huge middle that respects what everybody's got to say.

829
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: Crimes bad, violence is bad, locking everybody up is bad.

830
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: Stopping every black kid in troubled neighborhoods is bad. We're

831
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: going to deal with all of it, but we're going

832
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: to deal with it in a way that honors the

833
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: need for crime prevention, for public safety, and for not

834
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: expecting being sent to prison to be a normal part

835
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: of growing up. There's a moment that you in the

836
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: New Yorker article where they mentioned I don't know whether

837
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: it was in Boston or Cincinnati, where the the guy

838
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: that was a gang banger gets up in front of

839
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: the guys at the call and they bring the woman

840
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: in the wheelchair. Yeah, Cincinnati, that Wasntcinnati described what that

841
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 1: what happened there? Were you there? I was there. Yeah.

842
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: The guy who did that had been a serial strong

843
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: armed ar robber, so he was an old school guy.

844
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: This is before cracking stuff. He ran around Cincinnati with

845
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: a gun, putting in people's faces and saying, you know

846
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: what time it is. And this man stood up in

847
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: the call in and said, I did very bad things,

848
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: and they haunt me. I will never make up for them.

849
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 1: They will never leave me. And one of the things

850
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: I did was shoot this woman right here. And he

851
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: had and She was there in her wheelchair which he

852
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: had put her into, paralyzed from the chest down, and

853
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: she pulled her colostomy egg out and showed it to

854
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: all in assembled and said he did this to me.

855
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 1: And then I sat down with my brothers and said,

856
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 1: you are not going to go after him. This has

857
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: got to stop. It's really kind of the sermon for

858
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: our time right there's very very little common ground evident

859
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: out there right now, and I believe and pray, but

860
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: I do believe we'll get to it. I think the

861
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment will ease a little bit

862
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: and sanity will will emerge. The one thing that joins

863
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: everybody in this world right if you're on the corner,

864
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: or if you're in the neighborhood, if you're a cop,

865
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: if you're a prosecutor, the one thing I hear more

866
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: than anything else is everybody is sick of this. Without

867
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: knowing it, we have been backing each other into corners

868
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: that none of us want to be in. And the

869
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: way out of this is really to recognize what is

870
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: nascent out there that everybody involved in this wants to

871
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 1: be safe. They don't want to hurt anybody, They don't

872
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: want to be hurt. They don't want to get locked up.

873
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: You know, the cops themselves have been saying for forever,

874
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: we can't arrest our way out of this. They know

875
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: that ceasefire and things like that our moments in which

876
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: you can actually construct that common ground, and a lot

877
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: of us think that that is visible. Now you know

878
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: this this city is a good example of it, despite

879
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: the turmoil of the moment. You know, this is a

880
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: city where people said two years ago, we stop stopping

881
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: every black kid in the city, the gutters will be

882
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: running red with blood. And we have stopped stopping everybody

883
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: in the city and on a side continues to go down.

884
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: There are different ways to do this, and they actually

885
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,919
Speaker 1: begin to show the way out of this mess. Who

886
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: do you think is the person that can bring the

887
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: healing to the situation in New York? You had to

888
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: pick one? Where is it not one person? I don't

889
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: think it's one. I don't think this is, you know,

890
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 1: a man on a horse territory. I did not say that.

891
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: I think Bratton is going to be essential. I think

892
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 1: the mayor is going to be essential. I think there

893
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 1: are lots and lots and lots of people in positions

894
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: of you know, authority and respect and influence here who

895
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: can be part of fixing people have to play their part.

896
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do want to. I mean,

897
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: I've been in New York for ten years now and

898
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: I have worked all over the country. This city has

899
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: the highest quality criminal justice establishment, set of institutions of

900
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: anywhere in the country. It's amazing, which is not saving

901
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: us right at the moment. So I don't think it's

902
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: going to be one or two people. I think what's

903
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: going to happen is that some of the heat and

904
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: the extremism will leave the moment that we're in. The

905
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: moment will not go away, but I think the bonfire

906
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: will will tone down a little bit. And I think

907
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: then we have every bit the raw material we need

908
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: to fix this. And I think New York in fact

909
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: can be, needs to be, and is going to turn

910
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: out to be one of the central national laboratories on this.

911
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: I really do one last question. You have kids, not

912
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: money own, right, Okay? Have you raised kids? How old?

913
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: Different ages? But grown? Yeah, what do you tell them

914
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: about if the cops pull them over? Do you ever

915
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: have that conversation? Let me tell you what I do

916
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: when I get pulled over. Right, I spend my entire

917
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: life with law enforcement. When I get pulled over, I

918
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: stopped the car, I rolled the windows down, I turned

919
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: the ignition off, I turned the radio off. I put

920
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: the keys in plain sight on the dashboard, and I

921
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: put my wrists on top of the stirring wheel. Because

922
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: I spend all this time with cops. And I got

923
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: pulled over when I still lived in Boston while driving

924
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 1: around a lovely young lady with long blond hair, and

925
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: there wasn't any safe place to pull over. So we

926
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 1: pulled into a small stripmall parking lot, and I went

927
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: through my routine, and I looked over and my date

928
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: was getting out of the car, and I looked at her,

929
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: and I said, what are you doing? And she said, well,

930
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: we're going to a party. There's a liquor store right here.

931
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go get a bottle of wine. Sit down,

932
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: don't move, show your hands. Those are not moments where

933
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: you want to have this debate. You want to get

934
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: through those moments and then we can have the debate.

935
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about that myself, which is that

936
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: how do you send the signal of compliance to the

937
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: police well, like you said, hands on the plain side

938
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: of the dashboards, of the on the on the steering wheel.

939
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: What's the one thing you think, because I asked our

940
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: other guests, Johnny Turno from Maloit College, and I'll ask

941
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 1: you the same thing, what's the one thing in their hearts?

942
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: You think cops want most they want to go home

943
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: safe at the end of the day, just like all

944
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: the rest of us. And after that they want I

945
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,919
Speaker 1: was gonna say they want what I'm about to say,

946
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: I don't think that's right. I think I want this

947
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: for them. I think a lot of them are so

948
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: deep in what they do every day it doesn't really

949
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: occur to them to ask for this. But I don't

950
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: know any more accomplished people than good season cops. Not

951
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: all of them are good, not all of them are seasoned.

952
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: But most of the people on any force, they've been

953
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 1: there for a while. They've seen things that the rest

954
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: of us cannot imagine. They're smart, they're creative, they're capable,

955
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: they're physically skilled. They'll save your life in any number

956
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: of different ways and then turn around and do something

957
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: under and eighty degrees different and never never break stride.

958
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: And the ones who have been doing it for a

959
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: while and have not succumbed to cynicism or anger or

960
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: the bottle or whatever. They are some of the most

961
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: impressive human beings I have ever met in my life,

962
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: and I wish more people understood that David Kennedy is

963
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 1: the author of Don't Shoot One Man, a Street Fellowship,

964
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: and the End of Violence in Inner City America. This

965
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's the thing, M