Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
Speaker 1: or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
Speaker 1: podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
Speaker 1: not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. In this episode, we are
Speaker 1: going to hear a recap of some of the stories
Speaker 1: we have been hearing on Navigating Narcissism. I want to
Speaker 1: begin by thanking all of you for listening and tuning in.
Speaker 1: Now let's dive into some updates from some of our
Speaker 1: memorable interviews on this show. I'm sure most of you
Speaker 1: know what we Work is, even if you didn't hear
Speaker 1: our episode was Ugo Umbawek, who talked about his experience
Speaker 1: working with we Work and sort of the fallout of
Speaker 1: what happened for him when everything fell apart. We Work
Speaker 1: is obviously the mastermind of someone named Adam Newman, who
Speaker 1: famously developed this company We Work from the ground up
Speaker 1: and built it a little bit too fast. This was
Speaker 1: a company that it's heyday had a forty seven billion
Speaker 1: dollar valuation, but they kind of got ahead of themselves.
Speaker 1: The entire thing fell apart. Adam made sure he walked
Speaker 1: off with a very very healthy dose of profits, but
Speaker 1: many many others who held onto those options did not
Speaker 1: benefit in the same way. And there was a tremendous
Speaker 1: of betrayal. And how could somebody let someone run a
Speaker 1: company like this into the ground without any oversight. In
Speaker 1: many ways, the story of We Work became a fable
Speaker 1: about corporate mismanagement and the sort of grandiosity that we
Speaker 1: were seeing in so many tech businesses that would rise
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and come crashing to the ground. So
Speaker 1: here's where this story gets really really interesting. You think, okay,
Speaker 1: Adam Newman made a mess of everything, Well, how about this, folks.
Speaker 1: In the last few months, Adam has secured a three
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollar investment from Anderson Horowitz for
Speaker 1: company called Flow, his new venture. This investment is the
Speaker 1: largest individual check Anderson Horowitz has ever written when funding
Speaker 1: a company, and it values flow at more than one
Speaker 1: billion dollars for it officially opens its doors. And this
Speaker 1: is in addition to another seventy million dollars he raised
Speaker 1: for yet another company, a billion dollars a billion. I
Speaker 1: have trouble getting an advance on my damn credit card,
Speaker 1: and this guy who already drove one company in the
Speaker 1: ground is getting a billion dollars. When I read that news,
Speaker 1: I chuckled to myself and I thought, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 1: we do keep enabling grandiose folks, don't we. But I
Speaker 1: also got a heaviness in me because I stopped to
Speaker 1: think about the many people who were harmed when we
Speaker 1: were crashed, people who had invested time to watch the
Speaker 1: founder who had made the mess walk away with a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of money, and many of them left with
Speaker 1: very little after that happened. I really stopped to think
Speaker 1: about what does this mean? And here's the thing, and
Speaker 1: this is where it gets real complicated, and why understanding
Speaker 1: these kinds of sort of grandiose, entitled folks gets very
Speaker 1: complicated in the business space. Nobody can deny that Adam
Speaker 1: Newman is a generator of fantastic ideas. His ideas are
Speaker 1: visionary and excellent. Is this guy's coming up with a
Speaker 1: better mouse trap all the time? I can't doubt it? Right?
Speaker 1: And this is where it gets so tricky. And one
Speaker 1: thing that can make understanding charismatic, grandiose, arrogant, and egocentric
Speaker 1: personalities so complicated is this concept of how multiple truths
Speaker 1: are operating. Adam Newman has great ideas and vision, that's
Speaker 1: one truth. Adam Newman mismanaged We Work, that's another truth.
Speaker 1: Adam Newman appeared to put himself before the folks who
Speaker 1: worked at We Work and helped We Work in its ascendancy.
Speaker 1: That appears to be a truth. Adam Newman's grandiosity got
Speaker 1: in the way of him being able to do the
Speaker 1: drudgery and discipline of running and sustaining a business. Basically,
Speaker 1: his were bigger than his stomach. His ego is bigger
Speaker 1: than his empathy. That appears to be a truth. All
Speaker 1: these things are happening at the same time. Now, what's interesting,
Speaker 1: and my read on on observing and reading everything I
Speaker 1: could on this case is that he appears to want validation,
Speaker 1: and so he may be very invested in getting it
Speaker 1: closer to right this time. However, the people who want
Speaker 1: to work for this company need to understand what they're
Speaker 1: signing up for. Something I have said in the past
Speaker 1: is that, especially when it comes to dating, for example,
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as YELP for people. We cannot
Speaker 1: read reviews of people to find out how they've been
Speaker 1: hurt by someone. So when we meet someone new, because
Speaker 1: we often don't have access to the people in their past,
Speaker 1: we're starting fresh. And can you imagine if you knew
Speaker 1: what their past relationships were really like the same thing
Speaker 1: happens here, except people know what this person's track record is.
Speaker 1: So anybody going into this workplace setting needs to you.
Speaker 1: So I would say, with eyes wide open, understand what
Speaker 1: they're signing up for. But the story of we work,
Speaker 1: the story of Adam Newman and the people who work there,
Speaker 1: they're a reminder as much as we want them to be,
Speaker 1: these stories are not black and white. If people with
Speaker 1: these personalities were just simple cartoon villains, then everyone could
Speaker 1: see these things coming. The multiple simultaneous truths mean that
Speaker 1: depending on who you are in this new endeavor, this
Speaker 1: this new company, you may prosper or you may get hurt.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure some of your things wasn't that every company, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think the level of which one could get
Speaker 1: hurt could be more extreme when these personalities are on board.
Speaker 1: When a person works with a visionary but undisciplined later
Speaker 1: someone like an Adam Newman, it's important to keep your
Speaker 1: eyes wide open and not get caught up in sort
Speaker 1: of the CULTI dynamics of it all. And for investors
Speaker 1: just a thought, hey, you may want to listen to
Speaker 1: our podcast episode. But for investors, I sure as hell
Speaker 1: hope that they put in sort of the grown up
Speaker 1: clauses in their deal that allow them to put the
Speaker 1: brakes on before it goes upside down or if it
Speaker 1: goes upside down. We very much are living in the
Speaker 1: era of the cult of personality, and so multiple endeavors
Speaker 1: like this. I can see it. You read anything about
Speaker 1: this investment, and people are saying, we like to believe
Speaker 1: in founders who may have learned from their mistakes. And
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because when we reproduce that dynamic in
Speaker 1: a relationship. I can't tell you how many times I've
Speaker 1: sat in a therapy room with someone where people are saying, well,
Speaker 1: they made a mistake, and I'd really like to think
Speaker 1: that they've learned from it. I'm sure you do. And I,
Speaker 1: as a therapist, don't get to tell someone how to
Speaker 1: live their lives, so I desperately often want to, and
Speaker 1: I have to say I'm just going to breathe and
Speaker 1: recognize that this client is going to get hurt again,
Speaker 1: and my role in their life is really to help
Speaker 1: them through navigating those broken pieces afterwards. This bet that
Speaker 1: somebody is going to change that significantly when it comes
Speaker 1: to these kinds of personalities is often not a good beat.
Speaker 1: I only wish any venture well. I think that this
Speaker 1: venture is actually very thoughtful and it could benefit a
Speaker 1: lot of people who, especially the way the housing market
Speaker 1: is now, really deserve that benefit. So I think the
Speaker 1: idea is great. The challenges, it's basically hubris. It's Icarus
Speaker 1: flying too close to the sun. Basically Adam has been
Speaker 1: given a new set of wings, and the question is
Speaker 1: is this time is he going to remember to not
Speaker 1: fly as close to the sun. I really really hope
Speaker 1: he does, because I can again his ideas are excellent.
Speaker 1: This new idea is actually a really good idea, and
Speaker 1: I hope again that the grown ups involved are not
Speaker 1: getting caught up in the grandiosity of it all and
Speaker 1: can look at this with a more critical lens, because
Speaker 1: I think in that way the only way something like
Speaker 1: this is going to work. But there's also another piece
Speaker 1: of fallout here. When somebody has been sort of harmed
Speaker 1: by the decision making of someone in this case in
Speaker 1: a workplace setting and actually took financial hits from that,
Speaker 1: and then watch the person who not only prospered getting
Speaker 1: to prosper again, it can feel like a re betrayal
Speaker 1: for people in these situations. The difficult thing with difficult
Speaker 1: emotions is sometimes you just have to lean into them
Speaker 1: and let them work their way through. You may just
Speaker 1: watch with bated breath to see if it all blows
Speaker 1: up again, or just sort of watch it and slowly
Speaker 1: learn to let it go and find your own peace
Speaker 1: and your own path in the world. But again, it
Speaker 1: is amazing to me what people are willing to look
Speaker 1: past when money is involved. I sincerely hope this dude
Speaker 1: has learned, because, like I said, his ideas are top flight,
Speaker 1: and this idea would be really good for other people
Speaker 1: if it takes off. But unfortunately, given what I know
Speaker 1: about these personality styles, I'm not so sure that this
Speaker 1: is a horse, I would confidently bet on my recap
Speaker 1: session will continue after this break. So, Heidi Russell was
Speaker 1: a roommate story gone wrong, and this was well beyond
Speaker 1: a roommate. This was a story of someone's home and
Speaker 1: life being fully infiltrated. She brought someone in to be
Speaker 1: a short, short, short, less than thirty day tenant, and
Speaker 1: then before she knew it, a pandemic happened, and various
Speaker 1: policies and procedures meant that Heidi lost her own home
Speaker 1: while a person who moved in and didn't pay rent
Speaker 1: got to live there rent free. You know how we
Speaker 1: often talk about how antagonistic people get to live in
Speaker 1: our minds rent free. Well, this was a case where
Speaker 1: a real person was living in her real apartment rent free.
Speaker 1: It was a complicated story, and when we left at
Speaker 1: the end of the episode with Heidi, this person, this grifter,
Speaker 1: was still living in her apartment rent free. Heidi had
Speaker 1: to find a new place to live and ended up
Speaker 1: staying with a friend. Well, I was hoping Heidi would
Speaker 1: get a good ending on this story, and I'd say
Speaker 1: we kind of got a partial good ending. Upon hearing
Speaker 1: what the end of the story was, it was sort
Speaker 1: of a half happy ending. So after finally getting a
Speaker 1: court order to be able to evict this person from
Speaker 1: her home, any of you listening would know this person,
Speaker 1: this grifter, did not leave easily, even with notice, even
Speaker 1: with getting a decent amount of time to leave, being
Speaker 1: told to pack, being told what the date was again
Speaker 1: and again, she didn't. And so when that day finally came,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, not one thing was packed up,
Speaker 1: and once again the chaos ensued, with the grifter trying
Speaker 1: to hide and get away with it, and all kinds
Speaker 1: of things had to happen to finally get the grifter
Speaker 1: out of the apartment. But it doesn't end there, because
Speaker 1: these things never do. What ended up happening then was
Speaker 1: because somebody lives in your apartment for three years, they're
Speaker 1: going to have stuff. Heidi was left holding the bag
Speaker 1: on paying for the move, paying for storage to the
Speaker 1: tune of thousands of dollars. Heidi has already financially wiped
Speaker 1: out and now she was having to pay for a move.
Speaker 1: She finally moved out over fifty boxes full of items,
Speaker 1: and still is having to endure ongoing contact from this
Speaker 1: grifter who had taken over her life. Sadly, during that
Speaker 1: period of time, Heidi was not able to access her apartment,
Speaker 1: and in that period of time damage happened to her apartment.
Speaker 1: So Heidi is also now having to hold the bag
Speaker 1: on repairing and fixing and trying to make her apartment
Speaker 1: habitable again, so she still doesn't have a place to live.
Speaker 1: Financially has been wiped out, is facing the cost of
Speaker 1: the repairs, is carrying the costs of the move. So
Speaker 1: Heidi will ultimately hopefully be able to return to her home.
Speaker 1: But after something like this, and when this person is
Speaker 1: still out in the world and still making contact with her,
Speaker 1: something like this changes you. It's not likely that Heidi
Speaker 1: will really really ever feel fully safe when it comes
Speaker 1: to these kinds of situations again. She may not be
Speaker 1: able to get her financial footing in the same way again.
Speaker 1: But the real legacy of loss for someone like Heidi
Speaker 1: after something like this is a loss of trust. This
Speaker 1: was such an extreme situation, the very place that any
Speaker 1: of us consider a sanctuary our home got literally infiltrated.
Speaker 1: As Heidi moves forward, I do hope she's able to
Speaker 1: find peace. Hers is a cautionary tale for many of
Speaker 1: us who desperately want to trust, but may find that
Speaker 1: after a narcissistic relationship, it's hard to and often have
Speaker 1: to be more discerning, because even in the episode, Heidi
Speaker 1: was honest about feeling like some things weren't right, but
Speaker 1: there were empathic parts of herselves seeing that the scripter
Speaker 1: had a child that led to Heidi really wanting to
Speaker 1: step up and do what felt like the right thing.
Speaker 1: We have very different relationships with empathy and compassion after
Speaker 1: these relationships happen in our lives, and I have no
Speaker 1: doubt that Heidi struggles with that from time to time
Speaker 1: as well. Interestingly, Heidi not only did get her place back,
Speaker 1: but not surprisingly, it wasn't easy. She's also now trying
Speaker 1: to work through the system to develop a roommate law
Speaker 1: that would protect people in the future who find themselves
Speaker 1: in these situations and are not able to remove a
Speaker 1: person that they may have brought in to share expenses
Speaker 1: into their homes but cannot remove from these situations. So, Heidi,
Speaker 1: I hope that you are able before long to be
Speaker 1: back in your home, make it your own, burn some sage, Hid,
Speaker 1: and I hope that you're able to find home, not
Speaker 1: only in your physical home again, but that you're able
Speaker 1: to sort of feel comfortable back in sort of your
Speaker 1: own skin and in your own mind and in your
Speaker 1: own body, because these relationships can really really feel like
Speaker 1: we no longer are safe anywhere anymore. I had the
Speaker 1: privilege of talking with Mark Vicente, who was featured prominently
Speaker 1: in the first season of The Vow, the HBO documentary
Speaker 1: about the Nexium Cult. It was a painful story because
Speaker 1: so many people were harmed by Nexium, and Mark had
Speaker 1: a very unique perch in all of this, a really
Speaker 1: complicated space where he really really believed in it. He
Speaker 1: had to grapple with the moral injury of recognizing that
Speaker 1: he brought people to it, and then the fear that
Speaker 1: came from doing something about it, and doing it against
Speaker 1: an organization that had absolutely no morals or ethics in
Speaker 1: terms of how they would come at people who spoke
Speaker 1: out against them. So you thought the story of the
Speaker 1: Vow was done, Oh no, no, there is much more,
Speaker 1: And in season two of The Vow we get to
Speaker 1: hear what happens after the Nexium cult is brought down.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as simple as there's a trial and then
Speaker 1: there's a sentence and everybody moves off into the sunset.
Speaker 1: What we often forget is some of the greatest grief, loss,
Speaker 1: and hurt can happen after what looks like a resolution
Speaker 1: to the world, as people have to grapple with lost friendships,
Speaker 1: of seeing people who are still psychologically stuck in a space,
Speaker 1: people who are still coming at you in an angry way,
Speaker 1: and then absorbing that this was once part of your life,
Speaker 1: and even the idea that you may have brought people
Speaker 1: into this situation that could have done them harm. As
Speaker 1: people watch season two of The Vow, feedback that Mark
Speaker 1: has been getting is that there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are mad at the Loyalist So like the
Speaker 1: people who still kind of are holding to the tenants
Speaker 1: of Nexium, the people who are still almost defending what
Speaker 1: folks central to this, Keith Vneery and others were doing,
Speaker 1: and they don't like that the Loyalists are getting airtime.
Speaker 1: I found that it was so interesting that Mark is
Speaker 1: so circumspect about why it was important for those Loyalists
Speaker 1: to get that air time, because he said, that's where
Speaker 1: you can see we can speculate on cognitive dissonance, on
Speaker 1: coercive control. But he said it's fascinating to see where
Speaker 1: they're still stuck in it. Mark made such an interesting comment.
Speaker 1: He actually has a podcast where he sort of breaks
Speaker 1: down not only episodes of The Vow, but really talks
Speaker 1: about these issues. And I highly recommend his podcast because
Speaker 1: he brings in some really unique insights of somebody who's
Speaker 1: been so close to cult like structures is he's doing
Speaker 1: these debunking episodes and he talks about it. One point
Speaker 1: that Mark makes, which is such an interesting point, is
Speaker 1: as you look at season two of The Vow, the loyalists,
Speaker 1: the people who are sort of in some way still believers,
Speaker 1: still defenders, they actually look really calm and well put together.
Speaker 1: But the people who are devastated by this, the people
Speaker 1: who are speaking out about it, the people who recognize
Speaker 1: the abuses, the gas lighting, the manipulation, and the coercion.
Speaker 1: He's absolutely right. In season two, you can really see
Speaker 1: how raw their emotion is. You can see the harm
Speaker 1: that this has done to them. And I agree with Mark.
Speaker 1: I'm actually really glad they portrayed it that way. People
Speaker 1: might think, like, why are you portraying the loyalist is
Speaker 1: looking well put together, because that's what cognitive dissonance does
Speaker 1: for us. When we justify a toxic situation, we can
Speaker 1: feel okay with it, like, well, of course this is
Speaker 1: right and those people are absolutely wrong and this is
Speaker 1: the truth and they have their issues, and however else
Speaker 1: the person's rationalizing it. Any of you, any of you
Speaker 1: who are listening to this, and maybe, for example, in
Speaker 1: a toxic family system, it maybe you who recognizes how
Speaker 1: toxic it is. That you're the one who may actually
Speaker 1: look far more frazzled when you're facing down the family
Speaker 1: members who are either toxic or enabling the toxic person
Speaker 1: and have totally doubled down, unbelieving that the unhealthy dynamics
Speaker 1: are actually healthy. It's the person who sees it more
Speaker 1: clearly that is often the one who is struggling and
Speaker 1: suffering more so, I actually thought that was really an
Speaker 1: interesting way to portray it, and I really agree with
Speaker 1: Mark's assessment of that. Mark has been doing this for years,
Speaker 1: so in many ways, even what we see in part
Speaker 1: two of The Vow is already in the past for him.
Speaker 1: But when that story becomes public again for all of
Speaker 1: us who are watching The Vow Part two, it's it's current,
Speaker 1: it's present, and he as Mark reflects on his life
Speaker 1: and what this has been and how this is unfolded
Speaker 1: for him, He reflects on You're reminded of the loss,
Speaker 1: your remind of the lost friendships. You are being called
Speaker 1: things like disloyal simply because he spoke out and he left,
Speaker 1: He left abuse, but he's being called disloyal. Mark reports,
Speaker 1: not surprisingly that he's having bad dreams about the experience.
Speaker 1: It's triggering, and what hurts most is watching the loyalists
Speaker 1: literally tripling and quadrupling down on their ideology. And what's
Speaker 1: hard is, after all that's happened, when the harms have
Speaker 1: been recorded, when the depths of how abusive and how
Speaker 1: harmful what was happening in Nexium really really is that
Speaker 1: people still think that the people who come out and
Speaker 1: speak the truth about what happened, that they're the ones
Speaker 1: who are bad, that they're the ones who are corrupt,
Speaker 1: and they still hold Keith Ranieri up as this great
Speaker 1: and knowledgeable man. Many people would think that that would
Speaker 1: leave Mark feeling angry, but the emotion that he reports
Speaker 1: feeling is sadness. However, the good thing is is that
Speaker 1: despite all of that, Mark is continuing to get really
Speaker 1: good feedback from survivors of all kinds. One way to
Speaker 1: really see where Mark is coming from in the wake
Speaker 1: of all that's happened, and even in the wake of
Speaker 1: season two of The Vow. And again, it's a real
Speaker 1: treat to listen to the podcast episodes after you watch
Speaker 1: each episode of season two of The Vow. His new
Speaker 1: podcast is called w t F is on My Mind?
Speaker 1: Do tune in his really fascinating insights. And what's so
Speaker 1: fascinating is all these things he's saying about a cult,
Speaker 1: if you listen to them from the perspective of being
Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship or a toxic family, it all
Speaker 1: rings true the same way Nexium, the way the sentences
Speaker 1: were handed down, it's one of those few success stories
Speaker 1: of justice, it really is. I remember when I heard
Speaker 1: Keith Ranieri's sentence. I almost fell out of my chair
Speaker 1: because I thought, for sure, either as every good cult
Speaker 1: leader does, he had tricked the jury, he had tricked
Speaker 1: his attorney, he had tricked the judge. Certainly he had
Speaker 1: tricked thousands of people before that, and so I was very,
Speaker 1: very worried that not only would there not be an
Speaker 1: appropriate sentence, that would mean that anybody who spoke against
Speaker 1: him would be living under a banner of fear for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. So to see a sentence
Speaker 1: that recognizes the number of people harmed and the depth
Speaker 1: and the breath of the harm, that delivery of justice
Speaker 1: is something we so rarely see in narcissistic relationships. So
Speaker 1: I was glad to see that. But once again, remember
Speaker 1: that just because the sentence is handed down, just because
Speaker 1: people separate from a toxic system, just because they get support.
Speaker 1: As Mark says, the nightmares continue, did hurt continues, the
Speaker 1: sadness continues, and the loss continues. Many survivors of narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationships actually walk a rather lonely walk after the relationship
Speaker 1: is done or something happens to end it. A lot
Speaker 1: of folks will say it's done, now, let it go.
Speaker 1: It's simply not that simple. That's not how our nervous
Speaker 1: systems work. We hold onto this stuff, and Mark and
Speaker 1: other survivors will have to walk this path of healing
Speaker 1: for a very very long time. So Keith Nieri, maybe
Speaker 1: in jail, and we'll be in jail for the rest
Speaker 1: of his life, and that might be part of the past.
Speaker 1: But like any traumatizing relationship. They never fully go away,
Speaker 1: and so if you're somebody this had happened to watching
Speaker 1: season two of a show or any news reports, it's
Speaker 1: like bringing up these feelings again. Mark is having an
Speaker 1: experience that many many survivors have, which is I still
Speaker 1: care about these people. I cared about them once. The
Speaker 1: care doesn't just go away, and a lot of people think,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? How can I care about people
Speaker 1: who are willing two call me names to tell me
Speaker 1: I'm terrible for merely speaking out about a truth that
Speaker 1: people were being harmed. And as Mark goes through his
Speaker 1: process of healing, and despite how angry the Loyalists are
Speaker 1: and the terrible things that they're saying, he does recognize
Speaker 1: that he did once care about them, and it's painful
Speaker 1: to watch them just saying so allied with harmful people
Speaker 1: and to keep doing harmful things to other people. It
Speaker 1: is very, very difficult, whether you're in a narcissistic cult,
Speaker 1: which is all cults, or you're in a narcissistic family
Speaker 1: that you cared and many times still care about those people,
Speaker 1: and it can be really really painful to watch people
Speaker 1: you care about still continuing to be harmed or doing
Speaker 1: harmful things because you want better for them. Part of
Speaker 1: the healing is grieving that and moving on from there.
Speaker 1: We can watch salacious TV series like this, and many
Speaker 1: people have said this about Nexium in the Vow is
Speaker 1: that it's so easy to sort of write off it's
Speaker 1: a sex cult. That's not what it just was. Certainly
Speaker 1: that sells people to look at it, and it makes
Speaker 1: people pay attention to it, but it was people who
Speaker 1: actually did enroll in something because they thought it was
Speaker 1: part of their personal growth. They actually were committed to
Speaker 1: trying to be better people. So it's really easy to
Speaker 1: turn it into sort of something to kind of poke
Speaker 1: fun at. But it's not and that salacious TV series.
Speaker 1: That's real people and real feelings. And in many ways,
Speaker 1: when we watch shows like this and let ourselves sort
Speaker 1: of be carried away by the salacious part, we run
Speaker 1: that risk of dehumanizing survivors of these stories, which then
Speaker 1: runs a risk of society at large dehumanizing the story
Speaker 1: of survivors. And what's actually really really unsettling is that
Speaker 1: the arm of Nexium that was responsible at that time
Speaker 1: for branding these women, for bringing women in in this
Speaker 1: really coercive, unhealthy way called DOSS, that sub organization of
Speaker 1: nexium DOSS that still exists. So these toxic groups, toxic patterns,
Speaker 1: they all die hard. But I really do wish Mark
Speaker 1: the best in all of his ventures. He has become
Speaker 1: sort of a one man narcissism wrecking machine, and I'm
Speaker 1: just really honored to join him on parts of this
Speaker 1: journey and watch him flourish in this space. We will
Speaker 1: be right back with this recap session now. I just
Speaker 1: want to offer some briefer updates on other guests that
Speaker 1: we had on navigating narcissism. Vanessa Riser, who famously ran
Speaker 1: two d and eight five miles in her wedding dress
Speaker 1: once before to spread awareness about narcissistic abuse, was back
Speaker 1: at it again. Remember Vanessa is also a therapist and
Speaker 1: she really works not only with her individual clients, but
Speaker 1: has a public voice speaking out about narcissistic abuse. And
Speaker 1: she did another run in her wedding dress in the
Speaker 1: state of New Jersey. She did it back in September
Speaker 1: into October two and she ran from Trenton to Atlantic Highlands.
Speaker 1: The money she raised. Because this was also a virtual run,
Speaker 1: there were people participating from all over the country, running
Speaker 1: as it were the same lengths and distances or in
Speaker 1: the same on the same days as Vanessa. As part
Speaker 1: of this of this fight against not only narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: and recognizing these patterns relationships, but also raising awareness about
Speaker 1: domestic abuse and how narcissistic abuse and domestic abuse are
Speaker 1: very closely allied situations. The money that was raised by
Speaker 1: her run is going to her nonprofit fit organization, tell
Speaker 1: a Therapist dot com. And the nice thing about her
Speaker 1: organization is that it provides a listing of therapists who
Speaker 1: know how to work with clients experiencing narcissistic abuse and
Speaker 1: has lists of referrals for folks all over the country.
Speaker 1: I just think it's fantastic and as a real clincher,
Speaker 1: Vanessa also has a book deal where she'll be talking
Speaker 1: more about her knowledge and wisdom about narcissistic abuse and
Speaker 1: parts of her own story. So congrats, Vanessa. It's been
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be in touch with you, to watch
Speaker 1: all you're doing in this area and in a very
Speaker 1: innovative and very evocative way, taking that wedding dress and
Speaker 1: instead of it being a symbol of oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: I might be getting stuck in something reminding us that
Speaker 1: we can find our voices and we can also set
Speaker 1: those boundaries and allow ourselves to thrive. So thank you, Vanessa,
Speaker 1: and let's we visit the story of Rebecca Humphries. Rebecca
Speaker 1: Humphries is an actress and a writer based in the UK.
Speaker 1: Rebecca had one of those interesting experiences which was sort
Speaker 1: of the ultimate turning off of the gaslight, after being
Speaker 1: gaslighted for years about her concerns and her suspicions in
Speaker 1: a relationship and being told repeatedly how psychotic and she
Speaker 1: was and what's wrong with her, and slowly but surely
Speaker 1: making herself smaller and smaller to survive in the relationship.
Speaker 1: Her story played out publicly when her suspicions were confirmed
Speaker 1: because a photograph of her partner kissing the woman that
Speaker 1: Rebecca suspected that he was having an inappropriate relationship with
Speaker 1: ended up on the cover of all of the newspapers
Speaker 1: in the UK. So it was a moment when everything
Speaker 1: she knew to be true was true, and armed with
Speaker 1: that new clarity and the strength, she really did find
Speaker 1: her voice. And rebecca story, in a very big way
Speaker 1: shows us how people flourish when they get rid of
Speaker 1: the voices that are invalidating them and silencing them. So
Speaker 1: her career flourished, and she not only went on to
Speaker 1: a role in season four of The Crown Check her Out,
Speaker 1: she also has a hit acclaim play in London, and
Speaker 1: most importantly to me, her book is called Why Did
Speaker 1: You Stay? A memoir about self worth. It was a
Speaker 1: book where you find yourself on any given page crying
Speaker 1: because you're both laughing and sad. You feel like you're
Speaker 1: sitting with your best girlfriend just kicking it and laughing
Speaker 1: and crying about what they went through. I can't think
Speaker 1: of a person out there who's been in a narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationship who won't see pieces of themselves in rebecca story.
Speaker 1: It is witty. I hope to goodness it gets turned
Speaker 1: into a film because it's just really that good. But
Speaker 1: Rebecca has now not only flourishing as a creative, as
Speaker 1: a writer, as a performer, She's even spoken, as she
Speaker 1: said in front of the House of Comments, and there's
Speaker 1: no doubt that Rebecca's voice in the space is going
Speaker 1: to continue to proliferate and teach us that abuse in
Speaker 1: relationships goes beyond physical abuse, and that she is now
Speaker 1: again has worked with people at policy levels in highlighting
Speaker 1: the insidious effect of gas lighting. So Rebecca is doing great,
Speaker 1: and stay tuned because I have a feeling we're going
Speaker 1: to see more and more of her. And when you
Speaker 1: do see her performing, you'll really see this light that
Speaker 1: came out and you feel this tremendous pride because you
Speaker 1: know what it came from and where she came from
Speaker 1: and all of that. And so I find her story
Speaker 1: inspiring and just watching her kill it ever since she
Speaker 1: she got out of that toxic relationship. So those are
Speaker 1: the stories where we do know what has happened, and
Speaker 1: as we can see more than anything else, these are
Speaker 1: people who are not only healing themselves, but you'll notice
Speaker 1: another thing. Almost all of them have gone on to
Speaker 1: create amazing thing books, podcasts, work within the realm of policy.
Speaker 1: What we see amongst survivors is inevitably they simply want
Speaker 1: to pay it forward, and that is the work and
Speaker 1: that is the growth. A reminder that these relationships do
Speaker 1: not steal our empathy, they do not steal our compassion.
Speaker 1: But for the first time, we sometimes allow that empathy
Speaker 1: and compassion not only do a U turn and we
Speaker 1: take a little of it in for ourselves. Survivors will
Speaker 1: continue to care about the people they left behind, even
Speaker 1: when they were hurt about them, and above all, they
Speaker 1: remain focused on paying it forward to people who are
Speaker 1: continuing to endure these experiences. So I think it's a
Speaker 1: wake up call for all of us who have been
Speaker 1: through narcissistic relationships or are supporting people in narcissistic relationships
Speaker 1: that there is not only life after these relationships. It's
Speaker 1: a life with wings. It's a life where people thrive
Speaker 1: and grow and finally get to realize the potential that
Speaker 1: they often silenced while they were in these relationships. We
Speaker 1: will continue to keep having these conversations with survivors of
Speaker 1: all kinds, with stories of all kinds, to remind all
Speaker 1: of us that even though the world feels like a
Speaker 1: toxic place, the survivors are the ones who keep the
Speaker 1: lights on. Thanks again, a big thank you to our
Speaker 1: executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethro, Ellen Rakaton, and
Speaker 1: Dr Rominey de Vassila. And thank you to our producer
Speaker 1: Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling.
Speaker 1: And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers,
Speaker 1: Devin Donnaghee and Calvin Bailiff,