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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that case at the Supreme Court where

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Speaker 1: they are talking about whether or not to put safeguards

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Speaker 1: back into place for the what we know as the

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Speaker 1: abortion pill. And I think that people have gotten confused

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Speaker 1: by what this case actually is because you've heard a

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Speaker 1: lot of the media saying, Oh, this is going to

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Speaker 1: take away freedoms for women, this is going to take

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Speaker 1: away the pill, It's going to reduce access.

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Speaker 2: That's not what it's going to do.

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Speaker 1: But there are real reasons to have these safeguards in place,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that I feel like we're not actually

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Speaker 1: hearing from the mainstream media. So I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: a few folks on today that could talk to us

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Speaker 1: about this and kind of educate us on this, because honestly,

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Speaker 1: even when I was running I'm going to be totally

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Speaker 1: open here, I had some folks come to me and

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Speaker 1: talk to me about the abortion pill, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: fully understand how the abortion pill works. I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're talking about plan B and this is something

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Speaker 1: that happens very early on in pregnancy, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: all of the details. But from what I understand, this

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Speaker 1: is up to eleven weeks, you're actually going through labor,

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Speaker 1: you are having to give birth at home. I think

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Speaker 1: people think, well, this is early on, it's like a miscarriage,

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Speaker 1: but it is pretty significant. And that's why we have

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Speaker 1: doctor Christina Francis here with us, and we also have

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Speaker 1: Kelly Fedrik.

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Speaker 2: She is here with us.

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Speaker 1: She doctor Francis is the CEO of the American Association

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Speaker 1: of Pro Life Obstetricians and Guynecologists, and Kelly is a

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Speaker 1: senior counsel and the government affairs director for the Alliance

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Speaker 1: Defriending Freedom, a nonprofit legal organization.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to you both.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely So, I saw your interview with Caitlin Collins and

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Speaker 1: that was I was watching it and I'm like, this

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Speaker 1: is someone who can actually speak about this, that has

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Speaker 1: this experience. So I want to just kind of break

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Speaker 1: down what I was just talking about, because I I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of misinformation about what exactly this

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Speaker 1: lawsuit is and people are saying this would take away

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Speaker 1: the pill completely. But doctor Francis, can you explain why

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Speaker 1: you decided to go to the Supreme Court with this

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Speaker 1: and what it actually is that you're asking for Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, well, again, thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 4: And I do think it's important to explain to your

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Speaker 4: listeners exactly what it is we're talking about when we

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Speaker 4: talk about the abortion drug, but also then what exactly

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Speaker 4: this case was about. And so as you brought up,

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of people think that the abortion

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Speaker 4: drug is the same thing as something like Plan B,

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Speaker 4: you're an emergency contraceptive, but it's important for people to

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Speaker 4: understand it's actually a very different drug. So it's a

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Speaker 4: specific drug called mifipristone that the FDA approved in the

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Speaker 4: year two thousand that is meant to cause an abortion

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Speaker 4: of an established pregnancy. So that's very different than say

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Speaker 4: Plan B. And the drug works by interfering with a

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Speaker 4: key hormone in pregnancy called progesterone, and it essentially leads

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Speaker 4: to the starvation of the embryo or the fetus, and

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Speaker 4: that's what typically then leads to the death of that

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Speaker 4: preborn child. And then a woman takes a second drug

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Speaker 4: called mesaprostal that puts her into labor. As you said,

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Speaker 4: it causes the uterus to contract, and it puts her

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Speaker 4: into labor and causes her to deliver her preborn child

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Speaker 4: then typically at home alone, and now with what the

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Speaker 4: FDA has done without any sort of medical oversight or

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Speaker 4: medical supervision. And so that's actually what led the changes,

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Speaker 4: these reckless changes that the FDA made to the safety

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Speaker 4: precautions that it had put in place surrounding this drug

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Speaker 4: when it approved it is what led us to file

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Speaker 4: this lawsuit. And you know, just very briefly, not to

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Speaker 4: go into all of the details, but very briefly, what

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Speaker 4: the FDA did, it's reckless actions that endangered women and girls,

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Speaker 4: was initially to expand the range and pregnancy that these

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Speaker 4: drugs could be used from seven weeks of pregnancy up

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Speaker 4: through ten weeks of pregnancy, knowing that that was going

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Speaker 4: to increase complications, and then also saying initially a woman

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Speaker 4: had to have three in person visits with a physician,

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Speaker 4: so one before she took the drugs, and then two

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Speaker 4: follow up visits to ensure that her abortion was complete

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Speaker 4: and to ensure that she wasn't having significant complications related

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Speaker 4: to the drugs. They took those two follow up visits

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Speaker 4: away initially, and then at the same time that they

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Speaker 4: did all of that, they said, now you don't need

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Speaker 4: to report complications to us anymore. And now all you

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Speaker 4: need to do is report deaths to us. Apparently that's

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Speaker 4: all that matters to the FDA, is whether or not

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Speaker 4: a woman dies. And then in twenty twenty one, the FDA,

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Speaker 4: we think most egregiously took away that final really important safeguard,

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Speaker 4: which was that initial in person visit.

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Speaker 3: And that visit is so important for many many reasons.

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Speaker 4: One, the only way a woman can actually receive fully

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Speaker 4: informed consent and understand the potential risks of taking these

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Speaker 4: drugs that are specific to her in her particular situation.

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Speaker 4: It's also the only way that a life threatening condition

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Speaker 4: called an e topic pregnancy can be ruled out with

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Speaker 4: either an ultrasound or an exam. And it's also the

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Speaker 4: only way we can screen for other sort of complications

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Speaker 4: that might arise, like whether or not she's our H

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Speaker 4: negative or whether or not she's being coerced or forced

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Speaker 4: into this abortion.

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Speaker 1: So what happens if you are what happens if you

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Speaker 1: are our age negative or have an topic pregnancy or

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Speaker 1: a topic I'm saying that wrong pregnancy Because in those cases,

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Speaker 1: is this something that could be dangerous if you take

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Speaker 1: this pill?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: So, First if a woman has a negative blood type,

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Speaker 4: we know that she needs to receive a medication called

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Speaker 4: rogam in order to prevent complications in future pregnancies. So

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Speaker 4: many women who have been pregnant who maybe have a

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Speaker 4: negative blood type might know, might remember that typically at

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Speaker 4: about twenty eight weeks of pregnancy, there you go, there

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Speaker 4: you go, and then again oftentimes after delivery, you have

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Speaker 4: to receive this medication rogain to prevent problems in future pregnancies.

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Speaker 4: But we also know for women that have procedures in

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Speaker 4: the first trimester of pregnancy, whether that be treatment for

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Speaker 4: a miscarriage or whether it be an abortion, they need

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Speaker 4: to have rogim then also to prevent them from having complications. Really,

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Speaker 4: the very dangerous thing, as you said, Tutor, is ec

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Speaker 4: topic pregnancy. So that's a condition where the embryo implants

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Speaker 4: somewhere outside of the cavity of the uterus, the inside

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Speaker 4: of the uterus where it's supposed to implant, and that

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Speaker 4: is still the leading cause of maternal mortality in the

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Speaker 4: first trimester. Even in the US it occurs in one

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Speaker 4: in fifty pregnancy, so this is not uncommon.

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Speaker 3: And the reason it's particularly.

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Speaker 4: Dangerous for women take these drugs when they don't know

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Speaker 4: that they have an ectopic pregnancy is twofold. One is

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Speaker 4: that these drugs don't treat an ectopic pregnancy, so that

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Speaker 4: pregnancy will continue to grow and then can lead to

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Speaker 4: the two bursting and causing life threatening bleeding inside of

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Speaker 4: a woman's abdomen.

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Speaker 3: The other reason why it's so.

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Speaker 4: Dangerous is because the symptoms that a woman experiences with

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Speaker 4: an ectopic pregnancy are the same symptoms she's going to

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Speaker 4: experience from her chemical abortion, and that is vaginal bleeding

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Speaker 4: and abdominal pain. And so she's going to be told

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Speaker 4: she don't even know that are going along with your abortion.

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Speaker 4: She won't even know that she's having life threatening bleeding,

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Speaker 4: and that delay and care. I've seen it myself that

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Speaker 4: delay and care can mean the difference between life and

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Speaker 4: death for a woman with an ectopic pregnancy. And so

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Speaker 4: this is so dangerous, and it's why we have said

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Speaker 4: so many times that it really shouldn't matter where someone

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Speaker 4: stands on the issue of abortion. Everyone should be in

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Speaker 4: support of this case. Everyone should be in support of

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Speaker 4: these essential safeguards being put back into place for these drugs.

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Speaker 1: That's the part I don't understand because it's like taking

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Speaker 1: healthcare out of the equation here. I mean, for me,

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Speaker 1: for example, now I know that this is up to

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Speaker 1: did you say up to ten weeks? Yeah, So my

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Speaker 1: question is what happens if you take it when you're

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Speaker 1: twelve weeks?

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Speaker 2: How do you know that you're ten weeks?

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Speaker 1: What are the complications of you started taking this later

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Speaker 1: in pregnancy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question.

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Speaker 4: So we know from even the earliest studies that were

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Speaker 4: done when this drug was approved that the farther along

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Speaker 4: a woman is in her pregnancy when she takes these drugs,

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Speaker 4: the higher the risk of complication, up to the point

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Speaker 4: that at about thirteen weeks of pregnancy, somewhere between thirty

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Speaker 4: and forty percent of women will need.

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Speaker 3: A surgical completion of their abortion, and.

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Speaker 4: That could mean life threatening hemorrhage or bleeding infection because.

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Speaker 3: Of routine tissue.

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Speaker 4: So it's very significant how far along a woman is

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Speaker 4: in her pregnancy when she takes these drugs.

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Speaker 3: And what the abortion industry and what.

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Speaker 4: The FDA will say is that, well, you can just

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Speaker 4: ask women how far along they are, and you can

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Speaker 4: just base it off of that.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, there's many problems with that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, one, who's to say that the woman isn't lying.

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Speaker 3: The other thing is she really may not know how

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Speaker 3: far along she is.

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Speaker 4: So even the American College of obidu Ayan's APAD says

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Speaker 4: that up to fifty percent of women will be wrong

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Speaker 4: about how far a long they are based on their

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Speaker 4: last minstrual period, and that any pregnancy that is not

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Speaker 4: dated by an ultrasound should be considered suboptimally dated. And

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Speaker 4: so what that means is that when a woman isn't

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Speaker 4: even seeing a physician in person, she's not having an

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Speaker 4: exam to judge how big is her uterus, how far

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Speaker 4: along do we think she is based on that or

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Speaker 4: getting an ultrasound that would give very important information. There

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Speaker 4: is a significant risk that she could have many more

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Speaker 4: complications than she could even imagine because she's farther along

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Speaker 4: in her pregnancy. And that's why that in person visit

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Speaker 4: is so important for informed consent, Because how I would

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Speaker 4: counsel a woman about the risk of these drugs if

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Speaker 4: she's six weeks pregnant, It's very different than how I

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Speaker 4: would counsel her if she's twelve weeks pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I kind of think that people don't understand

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Speaker 1: when you talk about the risk, they don't understand how

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Speaker 1: significant this is. I actually lost a baby at eighteen

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Speaker 1: weeks and we knew the baby was gone. We went

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Speaker 1: into the hospital. They induced labor. It took three days

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Speaker 1: of me sitting in the hospital, but I was monitored

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Speaker 1: the entire time, and we had the baby. We held

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Speaker 1: the baby, we waited for the placenta never came, never came,

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Speaker 1: And then suddenly the nurse looked at me and said, honey.

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Speaker 1: I remember looking at my husband and saying, I think

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Speaker 1: I'm dying and he was like, You're fine, and I said,

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Speaker 1: something's wrong. It's like I could feel life slipping away

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Speaker 1: and the nurse. I said that to the nurse and

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Speaker 1: she did an exam and she was like, honey, you

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Speaker 1: have to go into surgery right now. We're calling the doctor.

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Speaker 1: We're taking down to ther and they had to. They

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Speaker 1: had to do a DNC. I would not have survived.

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Speaker 1: I would not have survived. It was truly me feeling

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Speaker 1: life slip away. What would I have done had I

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Speaker 1: been at home? And that to your point, I was

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Speaker 1: further along, obviously, But how do you know women in

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Speaker 1: a desperate situation aren't going to what's the difference between

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Speaker 1: this and a.

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Speaker 2: Back alley abortion.

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Speaker 1: If that's what we're protecting, If we want abortions to

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Speaker 1: be safe, then what's the difference if a woman can

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Speaker 1: die in her own home. And it's that moment that

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Speaker 1: you realize that that you're nearly too late to do anything.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely well to First of all, I'm so very sorry

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Speaker 4: for your loss, and I know from having sat with

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Speaker 4: patients how how.

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Speaker 3: Difficult that must have been.

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Speaker 4: But you know, you've hit the nail on the head

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Speaker 4: with exactly what can happen and does happen when women

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Speaker 4: take these drugs farther along in pregnancy. Even when women

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Speaker 4: take them earlier in pregnancy, that very same thing can happen,

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Speaker 4: but certainly the risk of that happening.

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Speaker 3: Is significantly worse the farther along they are.

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Speaker 4: And this is what we are seeing in our emergency rooms. Myself,

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Speaker 4: my colleagues are over seven thousand members that belong to

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Speaker 4: the organization that I represent. This is what we're seeing

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Speaker 4: in increasing numbers in our emergency rooms. Is women hemorrhaging,

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Speaker 4: you know, And it's interesting that you bring up how

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Speaker 4: you felt that's actually something I've had patients tell me too.

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Speaker 4: There is something women understand. They know when something is

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Speaker 4: wrong with them. And so imagine that happening, like you said,

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Speaker 4: and you are in rural America, where your closest hospital

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Speaker 4: with adequate blood products or the ability to perform an

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Speaker 4: emergency dancy is two hours away, you will bleed to

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Speaker 4: terrify or are you all right? Exactly exactly, And this

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Speaker 4: is something that happened to you, you know, very very unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: because of something that spontaneously happened with your pregnancy.

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Speaker 3: What we are trying to hold to account is the

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Speaker 3: FDA who is.

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Speaker 4: Inflicting this on women, because they have removed the safeguards

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Speaker 4: that they said we're necessary around these drugs to ensure

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Speaker 4: that at the very least, if women make the choice

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Speaker 4: to take these drugs to have an abortion, that at

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Speaker 4: the very least the appropriate safeguards are in place. And

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Speaker 4: it's completely reckulous with women's health and with women's lives

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Speaker 4: what they've done.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

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Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. Why remove these safeguards? And I

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Speaker 1: asked that because it seems like something that I'm even

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Speaker 1: hearing politicians say Gretchen Whitmer the other day came out

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Speaker 1: and said, we want to remove the healthcare appointment for

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Speaker 1: birth control.

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Speaker 2: We want birth control to be over the.

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Speaker 1: Counter, and that to remove barriers to getting mifipristone. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, this is weird because now

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Speaker 1: suddenly you're saying you don't want a doctor involved in

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Speaker 1: birth control, which I think also, I was a young

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Speaker 1: person who suffered from CISS and I had I was

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Speaker 1: on different birth controls and constantly monitored by my physician

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Speaker 1: to see how that was affecting my body.

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Speaker 2: And it does.

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Speaker 1: It does have major effects on your body. But then

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Speaker 1: to say to remove barriers to the abortion drug sounds

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Speaker 1: like we've got a governor of a major state in

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Speaker 1: the United States pushing to make this abortion drug over

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Speaker 1: the counter as well. I mean, do you see this

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Speaker 1: potentially happening in the future and why take healthcare out

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, you're exactly right, and that and even

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Speaker 4: birth control pills, you know, certainly have their risk.

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Speaker 3: But we are talking about with the drug myth of pristone.

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Speaker 4: We are talking about a very high risk drug that

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Speaker 4: the FDA recognized was high risk when they approved it.

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Speaker 4: That's why they put these safeguards in place in the

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Speaker 4: first place, and left them in place for sixteen years.

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Speaker 4: And so the fact now that we're talking about removing

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Speaker 4: even one in person visit, I mean, of course we

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Speaker 4: were asking for those three in person visits to be reinstated.

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Speaker 3: But you know, the fact that a.

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Speaker 4: Woman is not even seeing a physician even one time

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Speaker 4: surrounding taking these drugs is so dangerous and I think

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Speaker 4: that it shows the abortion industry cares about profits. We

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Speaker 4: heard that from Dan COO's the manufacturer's lawyer in the

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Speaker 4: oral argument. They care about profits more than they care

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Speaker 4: about women and women's health and women's safety.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's not only reckless, it's also unlawful, and that's

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Speaker 5: why we've sued the FDA to hold them accountable for

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Speaker 5: what they did. They're all the FDA's own label states

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Speaker 5: that roughly one in twenty five women will end up

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Speaker 5: in the emergency room from taking these drugs.

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Speaker 2: Wow, one in twenty five, one.

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Speaker 3: In twenty five. That's there.

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Speaker 5: That's the FDA's own label that says that and more.

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Speaker 5: And in addition to that, there are data states that

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Speaker 5: without an in person visit, up to three hundred percent

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Speaker 5: more women and will have complications seven percent will need

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Speaker 5: surgical intervention. The risks to these drugs are incredible, and

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Speaker 5: yet the FDA not only remove these very common sense,

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Speaker 5: common sense safeguards, which you're right, everyone regardless of your

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Speaker 5: views on abortion, should agree. Women deserve quality healthcare. They

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Speaker 5: deserve to have a doctor when they're pregnant and facing

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Speaker 5: difficult circumstances. But the FDA said, no, you don't deserve this.

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Speaker 5: And not only that, but was so shocking during our

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Speaker 5: argument is that the FDA argue that no one can

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Speaker 5: even have challenge their actions. We know that no federal

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Speaker 5: agencies above the law and that women absolutely deserve better.

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Speaker 1: Isn't this also, I mean, doesn't this go beyond just

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Speaker 1: healthcare and it goes to safety because we have a

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Speaker 1: serious problem in this country. I think we're the number

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Speaker 1: two in the world for sex trafficking. You are putting

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Speaker 1: people in a situation where you don't have a doctor

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Speaker 1: saying are you safe? I mean, when I go into

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Speaker 1: the doctor, even if I go into my cancer doctor,

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Speaker 1: I get a form to fill out do you feel safe?

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Speaker 1: At home? My kids get a formed to fill out.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel safe at home. This is a very

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Speaker 1: a very aggressive and like you said, dangerous procedure, and

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Speaker 1: what caused the pregnancy is a big part of why

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Speaker 1: you're getting rid of it could potentially be a big

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Speaker 1: part of why you are getting rid of the pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: And yet you have no discussion with a doctor to

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Speaker 1: find out if this woman is safe well.

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Speaker 5: And that's why the majority of Americans agree that the

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Speaker 5: FDA acted recklessly, that they believe that women deserve the ongoing,

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Speaker 5: in person care of a doctor when taking high risk drugs.

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Speaker 3: You know, you think about the.

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Speaker 5: Safety component of this.

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Speaker 3: What the FDA has done.

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Speaker 5: It's left women and young girls to take these abortion

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Speaker 5: drugs at home, alone in their dorm rooms, without ever

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Speaker 5: having seen a doctor in person. And that that's heartbreaking

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Speaker 5: to think about women anywhere, but especially young girls in

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Speaker 5: their dorm rooms who don't know who to turn to,

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Speaker 5: who don't have a doctor required to see them by

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Speaker 5: the FDA. It's reckless, it's unlawful, and we're very hopeful

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court will hold this agency accountable and reinstate

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Speaker 5: these very very common sense safeguards.

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Speaker 2: There's so much involved in this.

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Speaker 1: There's not only your physical health, but I think there's

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Speaker 1: a huge mental health component to this too, And you

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Speaker 1: have never had the opportunity to sit down with a

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Speaker 1: physician who can say, do you need anything else? But

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Speaker 1: I've also heard stories, and you can correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, and this is just you know, an old

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Speaker 1: wives tale, But we've heard the stories that there are

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Speaker 1: women who did not understand that this would be giving birth,

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Speaker 1: that when they see the actual fetus, when they see

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Speaker 1: the embryo, they are shocked that this is in their

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Speaker 1: home and they go into a complete panic mode.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard these stories?

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Speaker 5: We have so many women's stories who come forward and

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Speaker 5: shared that that they were not are told what would happen.

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Speaker 5: They were never told that this would cause them to

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Speaker 5: deliver their baby at home by themselves, that they would

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Speaker 5: just bleed for weeks and weeks. But women are told

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Speaker 5: is that this is easy, this is safe. It's just

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Speaker 5: like having a heavy period and that you know, maybe

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Speaker 5: you'll bleed for a couple of days. And yet the

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Speaker 5: reality of what women suffer, both physically, emotionally psychologically.

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Speaker 3: Is so different than that. What really concerns me.

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Speaker 5: Is the FDA has argued that these drugs are just

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Speaker 5: as safe as advil, and that's really laughable because one

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Speaker 5: in twenty five women don't go to the emurgency room

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Speaker 5: from taking an advil. And I think the women that

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Speaker 5: who have shared their experiences with these chemical abortion drugs

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Speaker 5: share the reality and the pain that these drugs have

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Speaker 5: caused them, and that they've never been told what could

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Speaker 5: happen by those who are prescribing them.

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Speaker 1: I think that was the shocking part about your interview

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Speaker 1: with Caitlyn Collins. She kept going back to this drug

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Speaker 1: has proven safe. They are telling you this is safe.

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Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of us have said, well,

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Speaker 1: we're a little bit concerned about some of these organizations.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen some of the other organizations in

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Speaker 1: the US be contradicted by European organizations that are like

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Speaker 1: the counterpart over in Europe when they've said this is safe,

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Speaker 1: this is safe, and the other side is saying, actually,

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Speaker 1: we don't think you should do that until you're this

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Speaker 1: age or whatnot. But now, why do we have to

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Speaker 1: just say we trust the FDA on this. Why can't

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Speaker 1: we say, well, wait a minute, there can be people

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Speaker 1: outside of that that are seeing these effects after the fact.

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Speaker 1: This is now I mean it's not the approval process anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's out there. We don't have questions. It's not testing.

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Speaker 1: We know this is happening. Why is it so hard

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Speaker 1: to say, just put the safeguards back in place.

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Speaker 4: Great well, and as Kelly said, you know, we don't

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Speaker 4: even have to go outside of the FDA. Actually, the

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Speaker 4: FDA admits that one in twenty five women will end

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Speaker 4: up in the emergency room. And you know, I think

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Speaker 4: for me it's helpful to put a number on that. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, Bootlecker just came out with their twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: three abortion numbers recently and said that for the first

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Speaker 4: time ever, we're now above sixty percent of abortions in

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Speaker 4: this country.

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Speaker 3: We're done via these drugs.

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Speaker 4: And so that equaled roughly six hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 4: chemical abortions last year. Well, if you use the FDA's

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Speaker 4: own numbers, which are likely conservative, but if you use

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Speaker 4: the FDA's own numbers of one in twenty five women,

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Speaker 4: that means over twenty five thousand women likely went to

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Speaker 4: the emergency room last year because of complications related to

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Speaker 4: these drugs. These are not safe. And I can tell

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Speaker 4: you that my colleagues and I as we're running to

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Speaker 4: the emergency room when we're being called for a woman

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Speaker 4: who's hemorrhaging.

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Speaker 3: Can attest to.

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Speaker 4: The fact that this is not rare and that it

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Speaker 4: is impacting women in a very real way, not just

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Speaker 4: from a physical standpoint, but as you said, Tutor, also

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Speaker 4: from a mental health standpoint, as they are faced with

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Speaker 4: delivering their baby when they weren't prepared to do that.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, for people who say that this

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Speaker 3: is rare, they are not.

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Speaker 4: People who are on the front lines like myself and

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Speaker 4: my colleague Pep, who are seeing women come into our

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Speaker 4: emergency room and droves across this country suffering very significant

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Speaker 4: complications related not only to these drugs, but to the

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Speaker 4: reckless way that they are.

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Speaker 3: Being dispensed thanks to the thanks to the FDA.

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Speaker 5: Well, and keep in mind too, this is the same

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Speaker 5: FDA that approved opioids not too long ago and said

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Speaker 5: that they wouldn't cause addiction. So the FDA is not

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Speaker 5: a trusted resource on this, and they they are failing women.

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Speaker 5: They're betraying women women and women deserve better, and they

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Speaker 5: really need to reinstate these safeguards if they care at

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Speaker 5: all about women's health.

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Speaker 1: You know, you brought up the comparison to advil, that

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Speaker 1: this is as safe as taking an advil. So the

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Speaker 1: numbers six hundred twenty five thousand women in six hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand are ending up in the hospital potentially potentially even more.

442
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: How do those numbers compare to other drugs?

443
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: Is that something that if you are a researcher, you

444
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: look at this and you say, Okay, the sirens are

445
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: going off.

446
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 2: This is alarming.

447
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 3: So if you.

448
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 4: Compare it to the number of people who take advil

449
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 4: across the country, I mean, it's millions of people who

450
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 4: take advil every year. And yes, some people end up

451
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 4: in the emergency mostly because of overdoses related to advil

452
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 4: or other medical conditions. But the numbers are you know,

453
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 4: I think we calculate it's a thousandth of a percent

454
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 4: that related to taking advil that go into the emergency

455
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 4: room versus one in twenty five who take these drugs

456
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 4: and an FDA approved dose, I should add.

457
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 5: So Yeah, in addition to that, there is no label

458
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 5: on advil that says roughly one in twenty five women

459
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 5: who take these drugs will end up in the emergency room,

460
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 5: so the risks are known. That's why the FDA. Originally,

461
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 5: when the FDA approved these drugs back in two thousand,

462
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 5: they said, look, certain safeguards are vital. They're necessary to

463
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 5: ensure women's health, and those include three, at least three

464
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 5: in person doctor visits both before and after. Those are

465
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 5: those are essential for women and girls. So the fact

466
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 5: that they decided to remove those that they themselves deemed

467
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 5: necessary early on is shocking that they would take those

468
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 5: away and remove that important in person visit with a

469
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 5: woman who is pregnant and who is considering abortion.

470
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

471
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. You are not saying you want

472
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: to restrict access. You're saying you want safe access. You

473
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: want to make sure that the patient is cared for,

474
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: which is just completely crazy that we're even arguing about this.

475
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: But I want to talk a little bit about what

476
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: you're protecting them from, because we've talked about hemorrhaging and

477
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: the problems that people can have. I don't know that

478
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: folks really fully understand. You know, if you're not medical,

479
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: what does that mean. I mean, we're hearing about infertility,

480
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: we're hearing about sepsist we're hearing about kidney injuries, hemorrhaging,

481
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: all of these things.

482
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 2: How common are those issues?

483
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,120
Speaker 1: Because I think if a woman is choosing not to

484
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: have a baby at this time, that doesn't necessarily mean

485
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: she's signing up for no baby in the future at all,

486
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: but that could be the case here.

487
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Well, you know, just even to use an

488
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 4: example of a patient that I cared for in my

489
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 4: emergency room who had obtained these drugs online without an

490
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 4: in person visit prior to getting them, and she presented

491
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 4: to our emergency room because she was about eleven weeks

492
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 4: or so long when she took these drugs by the

493
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: time they got to her, and she presented to the

494
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 4: emergency room with profound anemia or a low blood count

495
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: because of all of the blood that she had lost.

496
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 4: She required a blood transfusion. She also had retained tissue

497
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: that was causing an infection. She required an emergency surgery

498
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 4: to finish getting that tissue out of her uterus. And

499
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 4: she also had the early stages of what we call

500
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 4: a cute kidney injury or injury to her kidney, so

501
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 4: it had impacted the blood loss and the infection had

502
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 4: impacted her kidneys. She was not told because she didn't

503
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: interact with a medical professional first of all, but she

504
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 4: was not told that these were possibilities if she took

505
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 4: these drugs.

506
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: And as you said, you know, she.

507
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: Had a young baby and wasn't ready for another baby,

508
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 4: and so took these drugs thinking that this would help her,

509
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 4: and in fact it caused her significant harm. And so

510
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 4: you're right, you know, women are not being told about this,

511
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: and you know, we know what baseline, these drugs are

512
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 4: inherently risky. That's why the FDA put these safeguards in

513
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 4: place to try to minimize those risks. But now they

514
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 4: have removed all of those safeguards, and you know, I

515
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: think another important point to make is that many people

516
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 4: envision that, oh, well, you know, women are going online

517
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 4: and they're having like a telemedicine visit with a with

518
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 4: a physician or with a medical professional before they're being

519
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 4: given these drugs. In large part, that is not what's happening.

520
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: They're going onto a website, they're filling out a form,

521
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: and these drugs are being mailed to them. There is

522
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 4: no significant interaction with anyone in the medical field, much

523
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 4: less a physician, and so you know, they're not being.

524
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: Told about this possibility.

525
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: And as you said, to the risk of bleeding, I

526
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 4: used to tell my medical students that you have to

527
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: respect the pregnant uterus because there is so much blood

528
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 4: flow going to a uterus with a baby inside of it,

529
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: you know, by design, because that developing baby needs that

530
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 4: blood flow. But the flip side of that is when

531
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 4: a uterus starts bleeding in pregnancy, it can cause really

532
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: profound bleeding really really fast. And you know this this

533
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: way of dispensing these drugs. One of the arguments that

534
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 4: was made of why this should be available like this

535
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 4: is because, oh what about women who don't have access

536
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 4: to healthcare. They need to be able to access these

537
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 4: drugs without seeing a healthcare professional. But those are exactly

538
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 4: the women that are at the highest risk of suffering

539
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: these complications and having you know, lasting as you said,

540
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 4: they could lose their uterus as a result of this,

541
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 4: meaning they'll never be able to have children.

542
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: And this is something that at the very least they

543
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 3: deserve to know going.

544
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 4: Into it, and we know that they're not being given

545
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: this kind of informed consent.

546
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: Well, and just how do you have an ultrasound on

547
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: a telehealth visit? You know, when I hear about a

548
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: tele medicine visit, I'm like, this is not what you

549
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: use this visit for. I mean, this was, you know,

550
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: after we lost the baby. Our visits were obviously much

551
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: different than my last pregnancy was twins, and so that's

552
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: a different pregnancy as well, and that I also think,

553
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: how do you know it's not twins? How do you

554
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: know you don't have multiples? And then what happens when

555
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: you're at home and you're giving birth on your own?

556
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I just you know, like you said, and

557
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: I think that it is important to clarify no matter

558
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: where you stand on abortion, you should be for protecting

559
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: women no matter what right. So what do you think

560
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: that will come out Before I let you go, What

561
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: do you think will come out of this Supreme Court hearing?

562
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 5: The Supreme Court will recognize how reckless and unlawful that

563
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 5: the FDA violated the law when they remove these basic

564
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 5: common sense safety standards, and will require them to reinstate

565
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 5: it so that women are protected. And I think at

566
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 5: the bottom line really is that regardless of your views

567
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 5: on abortion, women deserve better healthcare. They deserve to have

568
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 5: safety standards when taking these high risk drugs. And the

569
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 5: f day should always put women's health over the pharmaceuticalceutical

570
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 5: company's bottom line.

571
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: It's fascinating to think that it is it comes down

572
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: to money, but oftentimes it does come down to money.

573
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: I think that we would say that as we watch

574
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: the political world, even though this should not be a

575
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: political issue, we see folks that are pushing for reduced healthcare,

576
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: even though they're claiming that this is healthcare, and I

577
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: don't know that this is I'm not saying that that

578
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: is a malicious thing, but I think it is import

579
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: that we have people out there who understand healthcare in

580
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: a way that politicians never will to say, well, wait, wait, wait,

581
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: we actually have to have healthcare visits. We have to

582
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: have a healthcare provider, which I think is so funny. Literally,

583
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: it's called a healthcare provider. They're providing the healthcare, and

584
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: you want to take the provider out of it.

585
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: It just seems bananas.

586
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: It's so backwards.

587
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 5: Well, even Planned Parenthood says that if you have you know,

588
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 5: the best way to check for a topic pregnancy is

589
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 5: through ultrasound. Ultrasounds are so essential to check for a

590
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 5: topic pregnancy, to check for the gestational age of the baby.

591
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 5: And to your point, ultrasounds cannot happen over zoom.

592
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: They have to happen in person.

593
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 5: And that's just that's just basic common sense for any

594
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 5: for any woman. And so it just is it is

595
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 5: staggering that the FDA would just care so little about

596
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 5: women's health that they would take away the requirement that

597
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 5: the doctors provide this to women.

598
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: Is there a fear that if you have the ultrasound

599
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: that you'll be closer to the child and then you

600
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: might not want to buy the drug. I mean, I

601
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: just it seems very weird because there have been groups

602
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: that have said, well, we want to push for an

603
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: ultrasound beforehand, but most of the time, regardless, you are

604
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: getting that first ultrasound to check to make sure this

605
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: is not there's not some sort of anomaly or danger

606
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: in the pregnancy.

607
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: Isn't that right?

608
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

609
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: Absolutely well, And ultrasound is a key part of providing

610
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: medical care to a pregnant woman. And you know, I

611
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 4: think we definitely know that ultrasounds show the reality of

612
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 4: what's going on inside of a woman. And but again,

613
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 4: I think that's part of fully informed consent. If she's

614
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 4: going to end her pregnancy, she should understand, you know,

615
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: everything about her pregnancy, including where it's at, as you said,

616
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 4: whether or not it's multiples or not. But also, you know,

617
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: I think this is another example of how the abortion

618
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: industry tries to cut corners to save themselves money and

619
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 4: to escape regulations and at the expense of women's health.

620
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: And we see this time and time and again.

621
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 4: And we heard that in oral arguments in this case

622
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 4: again from the manufacture of the drug, that they oppose

623
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: these regulations because it means that they sell fewer drugs,

624
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 4: and it means that they have to do more for

625
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 4: the health and safety of women. And you know, so

626
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 4: if I can just say too, one more thing is

627
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 4: I really wonder where are the women's groups. I think

628
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: women should be demanding better health care than this. This

629
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 4: is medical malpractice that is being done to women. I

630
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 4: had a conversation with a colleague of mine about this,

631
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 4: who is pro choice, and she said, I would never

632
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: treat my patients like that. Why is this being allowed?

633
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 4: She recognized, you though, again she supports women being able

634
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: to choose abortion, but she recognized that this is shoddy

635
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: medical care. And I think that women should be joining

636
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 4: together and demanding that the FDA be held accountable because

637
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 4: we as women deserve better health care than this.

638
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I wanted to talk to you today

639
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: because I really I've watched how this has been presented

640
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: on the media, and the media has presented this to

641
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: women as they're going to make your healthcare away, and

642
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: I just so appreciate what you both have done to

643
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: fight to make sure women understand this isn't taking a

644
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,959
Speaker 1: choice away. This is protecting your body, protecting your future,

645
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: and making sure you're healthy. And it just is so

646
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: meaningful to me that you're willing to do this. Thank

647
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on today, Doctor Christina Francis

648
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: and Kelly Fedoric.

649
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: You guys are doing God's work.

650
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: Thank you for having us.

651
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Tutor absolutely and thank you all

652
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: for joining us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. As always,

653
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: for this episode, go to tutordisonpodcast dot com, or you

654
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: can head over to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

655
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts and join us next time

656
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: on the Tutor Dixon Podcast.

657
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: Have a blessed ding