1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 2: I did not tell, not my lover, not my parents, 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: and they said I couldn't tell a friend. I remember 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: my terror that the psychiatrist would not believe me. I'm 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: sure I cried. I'm sure I told him I did 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: not want to marry the father and was certain I 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: could not care for a child. All of this complicated 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: further because I'd unwillingly had sex with a man other 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: than my lover, so I never knew who the father was, 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: and there was no way to find out. My lover 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: was one of my professors. In those days, there was 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: no taint of the criminal in such a relationship, nor 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: were they unusual. You could not have persuaded me then 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 2: that what I felt was not love, but a desire 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: to be him, to seize his talent for myself. 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: That's Honor More poet, memoist, professor, and author, most recently 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: of the memoir A Termination Honors is the story of 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 3: one woman's choice, the kind of choice many of us 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 3: keep secret, and the way that choice ripples quietly throughout 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: a lifetime. It's also a story about freedom, connection, expression, 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 3: and the making of a singular life. I'm Danny Shapiro, 22 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 3: and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept 23 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 24 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: secrets we keep from ourselves. So tell me about the 25 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: landscape of your childhood. Where did you grow up, What 26 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: did it look like, what did it feel like. 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: I was born in New York City, the oldest of 28 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: nine children, so I was alone for two years. We 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: moved to Chelsea in Manhattan, where my father was in 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: Divinity School on twenty first Street at General Seminary. 31 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 4: I was born in the end of nineteen forty five. 32 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: And then we moved when I was five to Jersey City, 33 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 2: where my parents had what was then called an inner 34 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: city parish, with a great diversity of people, many different 35 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: kinds of people. And then when I was eleven, we 36 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: moved to Indianapolis, where my father continued that inner city work. 37 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 2: When we left Jersey City there were seven children, but 38 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: when we left Indianapolis. 39 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 5: There were nine. 40 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: It was a rather populated and chaotic childhood, but also 41 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: very rich, and the church was next door, and that's 42 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: where I learned my love of language and music, and 43 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: I suppose also an interest in standing up in front 44 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: of people and telling stories. My mother had grown up 45 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: in a very I mean, I suppose you would now 46 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: call a dysfunctional family, but I think that's a kind 47 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: of sterile version of it. Her mother was bipolar and 48 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: alcoholic and an artist and a great beauty, and she 49 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: was brought. 50 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: Up that way. 51 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: She and my father were determined he had the same 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: kind of wasp upper class, wealthy background. They had this 53 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: ideal after the war, he'd been a war hero. They'd 54 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: married at the end of the war, and she always 55 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: wanted nine children, she said, a baseball team or a 56 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: small orchestra. So we were timed more or less every 57 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: two years. They were very open and proud of belonging 58 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 2: to planned parenthood. 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 4: And you have to remember then that birth. 60 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: Control was illegal in most states, even for married people 61 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: until nineteen sixty five, and then for unmarried people until 62 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. So they were kind of out there 63 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: and they were quite vocal about it. And when my 64 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: second to youngest sister was born, the columnist in what 65 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: passed for a liberal newspaper and very conservative Indianapolis made 66 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: a joke. You know, I understand the Moors belonged to 67 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: plant parenthood, but they just had their eighth child, so, 68 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: you know, and this. 69 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 4: Was the baby boom. 70 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: And my mother, who was competitive in sports and ambitious 71 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: competitive you know, she wasn't mean and competitive, I don't 72 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: mean that. 73 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 4: But she was. 74 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: She played great tennis, She climbed mountains, she rode horses 75 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: in won ribbons, and I just think she wanted to 76 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: have the most children, and there was the money to 77 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: do it, she did. So it was sort of part 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: of her identity to be this very beautiful woman with 79 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: all these children, whom she seemed to take care of effortlessly, 80 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: and she took great pleasure in keeping that household and 81 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: always reading books and always you know, very smart, interesting, 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: literary kind of person. In nineteen sixty four she started 83 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: writing a book which she published in nineteen sixty eight, 84 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: which was a memoir of the life and the world 85 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: of Jersey City, and went on a book tour and 86 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: suddenly competed with my father for the limelight. And she 87 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: was at that point forty five. And then she was 88 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: in a near fatal automobile accident which damaged her liver. 89 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: She recovered only two two years later have contract colon 90 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: cancer which metastasized to the liver, and she was dead 91 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: six months after that at the age of fifty, leaving 92 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: nine child of the youngest, of whom was eleven. 93 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 3: Tell me a bit about your father. 94 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 4: Well, he was. 95 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: Very tall and very handsome, and every Sunday he would 96 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: put on glistening robes and speak the liturgy and preach. 97 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: And at home he would tell us stories or read 98 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: us stories, and carry us around on his shoulders, which 99 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: was a lot of excitement. But you know, they were 100 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: very busy parents. You know, there was a kind of remoteness, 101 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: but he had a kind of sweet, charming, funny quality. 102 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: You know. 103 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun until things start to 104 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: fall apart. 105 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 106 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: When Honor goes off to college at Radcliffe, which in 107 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine became part of Harvard, she has a 108 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: boyfriend and she tells her mother that they're planning to 109 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: have as she would have put it at the time, intercourse, 110 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: her mother, by way of offering advice, tells her just 111 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: don't come home pregnant. By this, her mother does not 112 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 3: mean don't you dare, but rather protect yourself, your body, 113 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: your future, use birth control. In college, Honor majors in English, 114 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: but she spends all of her time in the theater department, 115 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: specifically theater administration. 116 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: I had a secret wish to be a writer, and 117 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: I had taken a writing class and the professor announced 118 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: my story as the best of the semester, and it 119 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: was actually the beginning of my writing. And I was 120 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: also writing, but not studying poems. 121 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: I was a. 122 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: Secret writer, and the girls produced and stage managed the 123 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: boys plays, and there was no support for me to 124 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: be one of the artists. I couldn't imagine it. Basically, 125 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,119 Speaker 2: the girls did the housework and the boys did the performing, 126 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: much like at home. But you know, I was very 127 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: good at it, so it was gratifying. And my memories 128 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: are not awful, except for the ones that were awful, 129 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: you know, except for on reflection, you look back and 130 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: you see what was really going on. 131 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 3: Right, you just use the word reflection. I kept on 132 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: experiencing the past and the present, like overlaying transparencies. And 133 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 3: another guest on this podcast at one point a couple 134 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: of seasons ago, said, when you bury a secret, you 135 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 3: bury it alive. 136 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 4: Oh interested. 137 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: I just kind of loved that idea because it feels 138 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 3: very true to me. But in a way, there's a 139 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 3: way in which two our pasts can be secrets from ourselves, 140 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 3: or secrets we keep from ourselves, or ways in which 141 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 3: we don't get until we can until whatever seem opens up, 142 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: and then there it is, it remains somewhat obscured or inaccessible. 143 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: Well, when I got to the Drama School, I had 144 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: quite a lot of confidence. I mean, the productions we'd 145 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: done at Harvard had gotten rave reviews in Boston newspapers. 146 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: There had been a review in the New York Times. 147 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: I was kind of a star. So I had a 148 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: lot of confident. That's when I got there. And although 149 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: there had been sexism, what we didn't have a word 150 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: for then, the thing of the boys directing and writing 151 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: and the girls doing the stage managing and assistant directing 152 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: and so on, it was nothing compared to what the 153 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: Drama School was like, which I didn't understand quite The 154 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: theater administration department was run by New York professional theater 155 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: people who happened to be not sexist, so I didn't 156 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: feel the sexism there, but the entire sort of esthetic 157 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: of the place in terms of how women were treated 158 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: that there was, you know, one or two directing students 159 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: who were women, one playwright who was a woman per year. Actresses, 160 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: of course, you know, because actresses were necessary. But it 161 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: was a very patriarchal situation, and it was a little 162 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: bit disguised by the fact that Robert Brustein, who was 163 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: the Dean, was known as the quote unquote red Dean 164 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: because he had written a book called Theater of Revolt 165 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: about you know, avant garde theater in New York. However, 166 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: he was actually quite conservative in ways having to do 167 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: with men and women and having to do with race, 168 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: and having to do with various other things. So you know, 169 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 2: it was sort of a culture shock. The phrase I 170 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 2: want to use is put in my place. It wasn't 171 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 2: exactly that simple. I mean because, as I said, the 172 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: theater administration people were very supportive of me, except that 173 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 2: wasn't what I wanted to do. The biggest secret was 174 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 2: that I had a whole life, a whole inner life, 175 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: and a whole beginning to be a life, and a 176 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: whole life with my body that you know, we didn't 177 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: talk about those things then. I mean, think about a 178 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: world where there had been no consciousness raising you know, 179 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: there was now, but that was for our mothers so 180 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: we were sort of on the verge of the sexual revolution. 181 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: The Vietnam War was happening, which put more emphasis on 182 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: the boys because they were in danger of being drafted. 183 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 2: Although I became a second wave feminist when I came 184 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,479 Speaker 2: to the drama school, you know, I was sort of bifurcated. 185 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: I mean, part of me wanted to write, had this 186 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: dream of writing, but the other part of me was 187 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: definitely going to get married and have kids and the 188 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 2: rest of it. 189 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: This picture of a future was simply that a picture. 190 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 3: It wasn't a desire necessarily, nor was it a plan. 191 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 3: It was an abstraction, an inevitability. It was what women did, 192 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: except that Honor didn't want to be a mother. She 193 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: assumed she'd have babies, she assumed she'd become a mother. 194 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,359 Speaker 3: So in April of nineteen sixty nine, when Honor discovers 195 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: that she's pregnant, this abstraction becomes all too real and 196 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 3: deeply at odds with what she most desires, which is 197 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: to become a writer. 198 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: Getting an abortion was in nineteen sixty nine illegal, so 199 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 2: it took some doing to figure out how to get one. 200 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: And on the other hand, our brothers were getting out 201 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: of the draft, and it was. 202 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 4: An equivalent of that for women. 203 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 2: There was none of this anti abortion, anti choice rhetoric, ideology, philosophical. 204 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 4: None of that was in the culture. 205 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: So it was like instant I knew I wanted to 206 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 2: get an abortion. I wanted not to be pregnant, and 207 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: I had money. I was privileged and white, and I 208 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: was seeing a therapist and had heard about this thing 209 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: called a therapeutic abortion, which is an exception for the 210 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: life of the mother. And I had heard that the 211 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: life of the mother included emotional health. And I had 212 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: an emotionally ill grandmother, so I was familiar. 213 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 4: With my genes. 214 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: And I just talked to this psychiatrist and got the 215 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: prescription for a therapeutic abortion. 216 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: And you told the psychiatrist that you were sure you'd 217 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: go crazy. 218 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: I mean, he was no idiot. He was the head 219 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: of the Child's Study Center at Yale. His name was 220 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 2: doctor Albert Solned. Decades later, I was asked to speak 221 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: at Vasser and I was introduced at the end to 222 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: this man. It was Albert Sulnan that I I said, 223 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: Oh my God, I have never gotten to thank you 224 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: for saving my life. I didn't feel I was lying, 225 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: you know. I mean I was exaggerating, perhaps, but I 226 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: didn't feel I was lying. I knew that there was 227 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: no way that I could be a mother. You know, 228 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: my mother had had nine children, and I thought, well, 229 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: she had one child and she ended up at nine, 230 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: what's going to happen to me? 231 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 4: You know. 232 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: So that's kind of magical thinking, but one does think 233 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: that way. 234 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 4: So we think back through. 235 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: Our mothers if we were women, says Virginia Wolf. 236 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 4: So you know I wasn't going to do that. 237 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: To complicate an already complicated situation. Honor does not know 238 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 3: who the father is. There are two possible men. The 239 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 3: experience puts Honor in an emotional pressure cooker. She writes, 240 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: no matter how many times I did the mouth, I 241 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: couldn't sort it out. You know, I think so much 242 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: of our lives, as we moved through them, at some 243 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: point involves forgiving ourselves and coming to terms with all 244 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: the selves we've ever been, and in one way or another, 245 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: making peace with those selves, understanding those selves. And so 246 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: if you're saying to a psychiatrist, I was sure I'd 247 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 3: go crazy, that wasn't a lie. It was something that 248 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: you knew that you needed to say to get a 249 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: therapeutic abortion, but that twenty three year old young woman 250 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: was trying to save her own life, which is then 251 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 3: what you say to doctor Soulnett all those years later. 252 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 3: So that process, what did it feel like? 253 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: I was told not to tell anyone, which I took 254 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: to me in any person, including you know, the family. 255 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 4: I mean, I would not have told my parents. 256 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: We'd never talked about abortions, so I couldn't be sure 257 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: what they would do. I didn't think I could argue 258 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: my position very adequately, so I was told not to 259 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: tell anyone. And the sense I had was that although 260 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: this bad legality as a process, Connecticut was you know, 261 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: it was the site of Griswold versus the state of Connecticut, 262 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 2: which finally allowed birth control for married people just maybe 263 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: three or four years before my abortion, and I think 264 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: that he was scared, you know, you didn't want to 265 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 2: lose his license. He you know, he didn't want to, 266 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: like have to defend in court what he'd done, despite 267 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: you know, the psychiatrist and the this and the that. 268 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: I mean, what was communicated to me was somehow if 269 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: I told anybody, I might not get the abortion. 270 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 3: And that was where your fear resided. 271 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really did not want to be pregnant. As 272 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: I try to explain to people who don't really understand 273 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: or didn't live through the sexual Revolution, a time when 274 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: everybody was sleeping with everybody all the time. 275 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 4: You know, it's actually wild, you know. So it felt 276 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 4: like part of that. 277 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: And when I would reach these markers in which I 278 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: would realize I probably wasn't going to have children, I 279 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: had no regrets, you know, I really didn't. And when 280 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: I said I always get sad in April, it was 281 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 2: really sort of thinking it in my seventies. 282 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 4: I wonder if that's why I get sad in April. 283 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 4: I always thought it was just the change. 284 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: Of season, and then it would be sad, not so 285 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: much that I didn't have children, but about the passage 286 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: of time. 287 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 4: About who was. 288 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: That young woman who didn't have a care in the world, 289 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: who then suddenly had a real care and suddenly had 290 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: to make a decision, and who had a rather jolting 291 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: confrontation with herself. Her It's like, oh, I have a self, 292 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: Oh I better protect this self. That was really what 293 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: was at stake, and that was really what I came 294 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 2: to consciousness of I didn't like to say, oh, now 295 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: I have a self. It wasn't like that. It was 296 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: just I had made this decision. I knew that I 297 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: could somehow take care of myself in a way. Not 298 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: that I didn't have ups and downs in life, but 299 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: it was a real decision for myself on my own, 300 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: and in that sense, it was a gift that I 301 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: was told I couldn't tell anyone, even though that made 302 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: it lonely. 303 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about shame because 304 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: it comes up, and it comes up for all of us. 305 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: I think if we're thinking and we're you know, feeling 306 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: back into the selves that we were. You write at 307 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 3: one point about being in a zoom meeting. I think 308 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 3: with this biography group that you're part of, and everybody 309 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 3: was talking about what they're working on and what their 310 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: subjects were, and you know, you really you have this 311 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: kind of like hot flash of shame. We just kind 312 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: of don't want to say. 313 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 4: It, right. 314 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: I'm wondering, and there are other places where shame makes 315 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: in an appearance, and I'm wondering whether that surprised you 316 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 3: or where that resided for you. 317 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: I resided in the same place that leaking during menstruation resided. 318 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: You know, it's shame of the body, shame of I mean, 319 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: what I've come to call it in the process of 320 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: publishing this book and talking about this book is I 321 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: think it's a cultural silence about the inner lives of women, 322 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: including their inner physical lives, and we're just not you know, 323 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: it's just not in the discourse. That's why for me 324 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: the Democratic Convention, when those four women told their abortion stories, 325 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: I thought that was a sea change in the culture. 326 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: I mean, that was extraordinary. This idea of a cultural 327 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: silence has come upon me in the last month as 328 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: I've traveled. What I'm talking about is the shame of 329 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: admitting I have a female body in a context in 330 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: which I don't feel entirely. It's not that I don't 331 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: feel welcome, but I feel other. So that's the shame. 332 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: And it's what I discovered in writing the book, really 333 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: is that this decision I made was a moment in 334 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: my inner life. I mean, it was a kind of 335 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 2: opening to my inner life and the interior of a 336 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: woman's imagination and the interior of her body are linked. 337 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 2: And are we going to allow this conversation to take 338 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: place or not? 339 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. When Honor's memoir comes out, she 340 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 3: goes on book tour, traveling in the country to talk 341 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: about something that had previously felt verboten, nearly impossible to 342 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 3: talk about. This could have been daunting, it might even 343 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 3: have felt undoable. And yet what Honor discovers while she's 344 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: on the road is the beautiful, alchemical, communal response to 345 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: truth telling. As Audrey and Rich once wrote about Emily Dickinson, 346 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 3: it is that which is under pressure, especially the pressure 347 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 3: of concealment, that explodes into poetry. And by poetry here, 348 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 3: I'm mean profound human connection. 349 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: When I was working on the book, and women would say, 350 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: what are you working on? And I'd say, you know, 351 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: a book about my pre row abortion. 352 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 4: And there would be a. 353 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: Moment, and then she would tell me, I mean, this 354 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: is ninety eight percent of the time she would tell 355 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 2: me her abortion story. And then there would be another 356 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 2: beat and she would say, you're the first person I've 357 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: ever told the latter maybe eighty percent of the time, 358 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: but so shockingly frequently that it caught my attention since 359 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: the book has been published. It's the lift driver, It's 360 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: the woman sitting next to me on the airplane, who 361 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 2: overhears me talking to a friend with whom I'm doing 362 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: a gig, and I'm using the word abortion rather loudly, 363 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: and she notices that everyone in the plane is kind 364 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: of looking strangely at me, and she leans over and says, 365 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: thank you for what you're doing. It's like that, you know. 366 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: It's reading at a bookstore in Minneapolis, where my sister lives, 367 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: and all of us, many of us, go back to 368 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: her house afterward. In all the conversations, virtually all the 369 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: conversations after the readings have to do with women sharing 370 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: their experiences. And then we go back to her house 371 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: and it continues. And these are women who know each other. 372 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 4: I mean, these are a. 373 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: Community of friends, and they're saying things that they've never 374 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 2: told anyone before. And so what I have come to. 375 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 4: Is that every woman. 376 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: It's not about oh they had such a terrible time. 377 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: Oh it hurt the next day. I mean there's that too, 378 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: but it's more I wanted my life, I wanted my freedom. 379 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 2: It was completely shocking to me that so many people 380 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: shared my exact experience. So that was when I started thinking, 381 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: a thinking, calling it a cultural silence, and I just 382 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: knocked on the door. 383 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 4: That's how I feel. 384 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: And it's been stunning and very moving to me that 385 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: women I've known, even women in my community of friends, 386 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 2: I may have known they had an abortion, but that's 387 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 2: different from what was it? 388 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 4: What was it that made you decide to have an abortion? 389 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: What was it like to get the abortion? How did it? 390 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 4: You know? 391 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 2: And then they always talk about how it affected their life. 392 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 2: I wanted to be a writer. I was not going 393 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: to let this stand in my way. I had plans, 394 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: you know. I had a plan to spend a year 395 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 2: in Europe. I had a top fellowship in history at Columbia. 396 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: I was going to study with Henry Steele Commager. Did 397 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 2: you think I was going to have a baby instead? No? 398 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's sort of or the lift driver. I 399 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: you know, I raised two children. I had a son 400 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: at seventeen and a son at you know, twenty three, 401 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: and I was done and I came to Los Angeles 402 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: from Texas for a new life, and. 403 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 4: I didn't want another child, you know. 404 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: And this was after she had said kind of when 405 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: she asked me what my book was about, she kind 406 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: of timidly said, did you feel the great empty news? 407 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: After I said no, I did not. All I felt 408 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: was relief that I wasn't pregnant. And then she opens 409 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: up with, yes, I moved to Los Angeles for freedom. 410 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 4: I wanted my own life. 411 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: So these are like these real conversations with women I'd 412 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: never met. 413 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: How is that sitting with you now? 414 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 2: It's fantastic. I mean, it's it's a gift, you know. 415 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 5: It makes me tear up every time I tell someone 416 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 5: about it because it's so huge and it's so much 417 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 5: bigger than me, and I feel honored, privileged that I 418 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 5: have been able to write my story in such a 419 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 5: way that women can hear it. 420 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, really, I am so grateful that I've 421 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: been able to communicate. And it's a lesson. I tell 422 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 2: this to my students. But the deeper the truth you write, 423 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: the more you reveal about the nature of being human. 424 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 3: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacure is 425 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 426 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 427 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 3: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 428 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 429 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 3: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 430 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 431 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 3: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 432 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 3: check out my memoir Inheritance. 433 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 434 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.