Speaker 1: You are listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair.
Speaker 2: Here at Ruthie's Table four, we have something exciting to
Speaker 2: tell you. Our new substack has just launched. You will
Speaker 2: find all kinds of extra material from the River Cafe,
Speaker 2: including recipes, our latest news, and bonus content from the podcast.
Speaker 2: If you enjoy listening to this series as much as
Speaker 2: I enjoy talking with our guests, visit the River Cafe
Speaker 2: dot substack and subscribe. See you there. One of the
Speaker 2: questions I'm often asked is where and when did you
Speaker 2: meet Sir Johnny I've the person whose designs changed the world. Well,
Speaker 2: the answer is we met in the White House at
Speaker 2: a spectacular state dinner when Barack Obama was president and
Speaker 2: Hope was in the air. We were kind of orphans.
Speaker 2: Neither my husband Richard nor Johnny's wife Heather could come,
Speaker 2: and we'd both recently lost our best friends of work
Speaker 2: partners for him, Steve Jobs and for me Rose Gray.
Speaker 2: It was the beginning of one of the most important
Speaker 2: friendships I have. Johnny's designs for Apple with Steve Jobs
Speaker 2: transformed the way we live. On my wrist is the
Speaker 2: Apple Watch, counting my steps, checking my heartbeat on facetap.
Speaker 2: Last night I read a bedtime story to my granddaughter.
Speaker 2: Often the last thing I read is a text from
Speaker 2: Johnny on my iPhone asking how are you Ruthie? How
Speaker 2: was your day? But today my friend is not five
Speaker 2: thousand miles away, but here in the river cafe next
Speaker 2: to me, as close as can be, Ruthie. So how
Speaker 2: was making the pizzas? What was that like?
Speaker 1: It was warm? The ovens is He's pink and warm
Speaker 1: and smelt gorgeous. That teledio whnette starts to bubble smells extraordinary.
Speaker 1: But we used to have a a wood fired oven,
Speaker 1: an apple very often I would have had the pizza
Speaker 1: and to see something actually because of the little door
Speaker 1: you put it in, to see something actually being cooked,
Speaker 1: not going behind the door, and just then it becomes
Speaker 1: about time. But when you actually see it, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think is particularly special.
Speaker 2: So would you like to read the recipes? Did not?
Speaker 1: Did you going to eat? I'm going to eat it later.
Speaker 1: So this recipe is for teleggio pizza with herbs or herbs.
Speaker 1: So we need one batch of tuscan pizza dough, three
Speaker 1: tablespoons of extra olive oil, four hundred grams of telegio
Speaker 1: cut into pieces, and then a bunch of time. Now
Speaker 1: we didn't have time earlier, so we had what we
Speaker 1: just had was basil gorgeous zucchini flowers. We had merrygolds
Speaker 1: which if you hold that the orange of the merrygolds,
Speaker 1: hold it up again. Pink and orange are this beautiful,
Speaker 1: very fizzy combination. So I love the merrygolds to look
Speaker 1: at it, and I haven't eaten them yet. Sea salt
Speaker 1: and some freshly ground pepper. I put the sea salt on.
Speaker 1: Preheat your oven to two hundred and thirty degrees. Divide
Speaker 1: the dough balls into eight balls and roll each one
Speaker 1: out into twenty five centimeter or two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: millimeter discs if you, if you have any precision in you, Ruthie.
Speaker 1: And it was very very thin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do very thin. When we were in the
Speaker 2: south of Italy though, they were very thick. You know.
Speaker 2: They're thick the further we go, which are also really delicious,
Speaker 2: you know, but if you're having a if you're having
Speaker 2: dinner and then you want something, you wouldn't want a
Speaker 2: big thick that.
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I do love the very thin, no
Speaker 1: it's and then cover each pizza base with a single
Speaker 1: layer of tillegio, drizzle with olive oil. Finally scatter with
Speaker 1: seasonal herbs such as thyme, basil, or zucchini flowers. Place
Speaker 1: the pizza in the oven and cook until the base
Speaker 1: is crisp at the edges and the cheese has melted.
Speaker 1: And serve hot.
Speaker 2: Pizzas need to be hot. So did you pizza set up?
Speaker 2: We can order? We can order a pizza. So when
Speaker 2: you were growing up and you're you were born where
Speaker 2: Johnny so?
Speaker 1: I was born in North London, right where London up,
Speaker 1: in a place called Chingford, and it's right where London
Speaker 1: was halted in its growth by the green Belt, which
Speaker 1: was epping forest. So literally the road ended and the
Speaker 1: forest began.
Speaker 2: So what was the food like in your house? What
Speaker 2: was a kitchen like? Let's start with a kitchen.
Speaker 1: We had a big bread mixer that was made by
Speaker 1: Brown and was probably the most beautiful thing I think
Speaker 1: we owned.
Speaker 2: Why was that? Was your mother or father a breadmaker?
Speaker 2: Did they?
Speaker 1: Well? They were. I was brought up primarily vegetarian. A
Speaker 1: lot of bread was made, most of it it wasn't
Speaker 1: very nice actually, I'll tell you that's something absolutely dreadful.
Speaker 1: It was made probably weakly, but my parents worked, and
Speaker 1: so she would make sandwiches for me to take to
Speaker 1: school on Sunday and then freeze them and then take
Speaker 1: the sandwich out the night before and it would dethor
Speaker 1: in time for the next day. Just just so. The
Speaker 1: sandwiches were always chilly, but they were always wet because
Speaker 1: there was something about tomatoes and lettuce defrosting that I
Speaker 1: think caused havoc in the sandwich departs.
Speaker 2: As you were describing a woman who worked, a woman
Speaker 2: who had to go to work in the morning and
Speaker 2: see that her children had something to eat at lunchtime,
Speaker 2: what did she do?
Speaker 1: She was a teacher, so she was philosophy. But my grandparents,
Speaker 1: because both of my parents worked, I was essentially raised
Speaker 1: by my father's mom and dad, and they were vegetarian
Speaker 1: and grew or made almost everything that they ate in
Speaker 1: a tiny garden. There was a greenhouse, and digging up potatoes.
Speaker 1: My favorite, without a doubt, is you know, harvesting taken
Speaker 1: the peas, shelling peas. I've shown thousands of peas and
Speaker 1: probably yielded about ten percent that got to the table.
Speaker 1: And tomatoes, but all their garden and chingfri. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that's what was odd. It was the difference between something
Speaker 1: that was ten minutes ago was growing and to watch
Speaker 1: on the tiny little My grandmother had a little electric
Speaker 1: oven made by company called Belling. Such a tiny kitchen
Speaker 1: she had and still some of the most extraordinary dinners
Speaker 1: and lunches.
Speaker 2: I remember what she made with potatoes. Do you remember
Speaker 2: how she would cook the potatoes.
Speaker 1: Yes, so she absolutely so. They would only be scrubbed
Speaker 1: and quite gently boiled, but with mint she you know
Speaker 1: it also put well know that I picked after digging
Speaker 1: up the potatoes, and it was as simple as just potatoes,
Speaker 1: and then tomatoes if it was good, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: eaten them, more peas.
Speaker 2: And your father what was his what was his career?
Speaker 1: Well, he trained as a silversmith and a cabinet maker
Speaker 1: and then became a teacher and a professor. His specialism
Speaker 1: was art and design. And my Christmas present would be
Speaker 1: he would say, we will go into the workshops during
Speaker 1: during Christmas, which I'm sure was illegal, and we would
Speaker 1: go in for one day and he said, you know,
Speaker 1: we will make together whatever whatever you want with the
Speaker 1: one condition that you design it, and to me, he
Speaker 1: didn't actually say designed, what would have been I think
Speaker 1: I started doing that when I was probably about seven
Speaker 1: or eight, so very But what was curious. He didn't
Speaker 1: say design it, He said think about it and explain
Speaker 1: it to me, probably with a drawing. And what a
Speaker 1: wonderful definition of.
Speaker 2: Design explaining by a drawing. Also, what you've described is
Speaker 2: how a vegetable grows about. You know, being in the
Speaker 2: workshop with your father is about process, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I think it's part of the human condition that we
Speaker 1: assume everything that is made, everything that grows, is inevitable. Now,
Speaker 1: maybe it's necessary because if we're truly startled and full
Speaker 1: of the joy and celebration of everything around us, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't get much done. Perhaps, But I think probably one
Speaker 1: of the things that defines people that I love is
Speaker 1: the simple joy and curiosity about this chair, How did
Speaker 1: it get here? How was it made? The pizza, seeing
Speaker 1: this floppy dough change into something rigid and crispy. And
Speaker 1: I think when you understand process and you celebrated, the
Speaker 1: glorious thing is that you end up I think, connecting
Speaker 1: to your environment, to the world in a much deeper way,
Speaker 1: And I think it also brings a humility you just realize,
Speaker 1: and I think you become very aware of your small
Speaker 1: part as part of humanity, you know, part of our species.
Speaker 2: So when you left the nurturing and the note of
Speaker 2: your grandparents being nearby, of your mother making that effort
Speaker 2: to make bread, your father taking you into the workshop,
Speaker 2: and then you went to university. When I left that,
Speaker 2: did you create a kind of home for yourself and
Speaker 2: you met Heather quite soon or did you were so
Speaker 2: absorbed in working and designing that food became maybe secondary
Speaker 2: or something you grabbed. What was the food like for you?
Speaker 1: I think food certainly at art school it was functional
Speaker 1: and sadly rather joyless. And I got married when we
Speaker 1: were up in Newcastle. We came back and lived in
Speaker 1: Greenwich for a few.
Speaker 2: Years and we've had an apartment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just had a small apartment. But I used
Speaker 1: to then. I used to work in Shoreditch for Tangerine.
Speaker 2: And Small Design.
Speaker 1: It's just a very small design group, but it was
Speaker 1: near Possibly the best thing about it was it was
Speaker 1: close to brick Lane and I love Curry. I mean,
Speaker 1: the culture of brick Layne was so interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: many of the restaurants didn't have the licensed to sell alcohol,
Speaker 1: and so you were typically going by alcohol at the
Speaker 1: you know, the off license next door and just then
Speaker 1: go into the restaurant. But I've had some just just
Speaker 1: extraordinary dinners there.
Speaker 2: And when you went to San Francisco, it was for
Speaker 2: me San Francisco with Alice Walters, and with Judy Rogers
Speaker 2: and now with Quins with Napa Valley. It's such a
Speaker 2: food culture. Or was that also? Were you not in
Speaker 2: a phase where you could actually just go no food.
Speaker 1: There was a culture of eating out which I had
Speaker 1: never never been part of before, and so we would
Speaker 1: eat out all the time. I mean, Japanice was incredible on.
Speaker 2: The farm to the table, a bit like you're grandparents,
Speaker 2: you know that you take something from farm.
Speaker 1: I moved in ninety two, so I've been there for
Speaker 1: you know, well over thirty years.
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Speaker 3: Now I'm joined on the phone now with Mark Newson,
Speaker 3: a very close friend of Johnny Ive a very close
Speaker 3: friend of mine, to talk to us about Johnny and
Speaker 3: working with him. Mark, how did you and Johnny end
Speaker 3: up working together?
Speaker 4: Johnny and I started out being friends. You know, we
Speaker 4: were both designers, and we didn't work together originally. Johnny was,
Speaker 4: you know, had just started working at Apple with Steve
Speaker 4: Job back in I guess early to mid nineties. Johnny
Speaker 4: effectively invited me to come to Apple to help work
Speaker 4: on the Apple Watch. And that's a particular project that
Speaker 4: I think is a really fascinating example in terms of.
Speaker 1: How he thinks.
Speaker 4: Johnny always loved watches, and he was always fascinated by watches,
Speaker 4: and he always said he wanted to do a watch.
Speaker 4: He wanted to do a watch at Apple. But you know,
Speaker 4: we're talking more than a decade before it was even
Speaker 4: sort of muted as a possibility, and no one could
Speaker 4: least of all me. Actually, no one could quite get
Speaker 4: their head around.
Speaker 1: What it was.
Speaker 4: He was thinking, you know how, in the context of Apple,
Speaker 4: would you kind of create a watch? Did the world
Speaker 4: need a watch? This wasn't long after the iPhone, the
Speaker 4: iPad had not long been invented, but he had this
Speaker 4: vision to create a watch, and clearly he managed to
Speaker 4: convince everyone, the powers that be at Apple, to proceed
Speaker 4: with this project. You know, clearly it was going to
Speaker 4: look good, most likely was going to be a success,
Speaker 4: although I guess that wasn't entirely clear at the time.
Speaker 4: You know, the idea of bringing back a product which
Speaker 4: your parents or grandparents would have been very comfortable with,
Speaker 4: yet you know children of that generation simply didn't know
Speaker 4: or didn't own, was stunning. And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: people are wearing watches again. It was like reintroducing this
Speaker 4: whole new thing, which actually wasn't new, that you wear
Speaker 4: on your wrist. But now I'm amazed. You see them
Speaker 4: on people on television, you see them all around the world.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a device like the iPhone or the
Speaker 4: iPad that cuts through every conceivable geographical, socioeconomic, almost background.
Speaker 4: So you know, it's an incredibly accessible thing. I guess
Speaker 4: safe to say, it's the most produced watch in the
Speaker 4: history of watches. So that was born out of a
Speaker 4: kind of a desire that Johnny had that no one
Speaker 4: else could identify or even see. He's sort of cut
Speaker 4: from a slightly different cloth from the rest of us.
Speaker 4: I think, Mark, what do.
Speaker 2: You think is unique about Johnese's approach to design?
Speaker 4: Most designers really wish they could kind of look into
Speaker 4: a crystal ball and see the future, because you know,
Speaker 4: what you're doing is creating. You know, ideally you're creating
Speaker 4: products that people want and maybe even people need, But
Speaker 4: most importantly, you want to create products that sort of
Speaker 4: somehow stand the test of time. And in many ways
Speaker 4: it does require being able to look into the future.
Speaker 4: But clearly that's a very difficult or most impossible thing
Speaker 4: to do, except probably if you're Johnny. Because being able
Speaker 4: to somehow envisage where we'll be in say, ten years time,
Speaker 4: and imagine the world around and what it will be like,
Speaker 4: you know, how it will be different to where we
Speaker 4: are right now. That's where he's really, really, really clever.
Speaker 4: And you know, the Apple Watch was a great case
Speaker 4: in point. There are lots of products that he's been
Speaker 4: involved in designing that I think really clearly demonstrate that.
Speaker 1: One of the things I feel particularly fortunate having such
Speaker 1: a close relationship with Steve. I got to grow up
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley, benefiting from seeing the area through his eyes.
Speaker 1: Now he grew up in Silicon Valley, he remembers when
Speaker 1: the valley was Johnny that used to be an orchard
Speaker 1: of apricotrees, and the way that he understood though the
Speaker 1: valley in relationship to San Francisco. So his sense of
Speaker 1: the importance of San Francisco was quite beautiful, and you
Speaker 1: then got a sense of, you know, even though it's
Speaker 1: fifty miles away, you then also have a sense of Okay,
Speaker 1: Napa Valley where you have extraordinary wine, and the vineyards
Speaker 1: up in Napa Valley are really really beautiful.
Speaker 2: What was Steve jobs your relationship? You know, I can
Speaker 2: said how we both lost our partner. So Steve was
Speaker 2: so important in your life. And I know you've spoken
Speaker 2: about what it was like as a friend, as a
Speaker 2: colleague working every day with him, but can we also
Speaker 2: talk about what was his relationship to food? Did you
Speaker 2: two eat together? Did you share meals? And did he
Speaker 2: care about food?
Speaker 1: We had lunch together nearly every day, so we were
Speaker 1: Monday to Friday. We would either have lunch in the
Speaker 1: canteena apple, or we would go out together. And he
Speaker 1: was sort of vegetarian, maybe pescatarian. I mean he did
Speaker 1: love sashimi and he had I think, an extraordinary palette.
Speaker 1: I mean, we would love going for sashimi together. But
Speaker 1: he I think we could both eat a tomato and
Speaker 1: just a tomato with great olive oil and be could
Speaker 1: never be happier than that. But in his kitchen he
Speaker 1: had a wood fired other than that you at home
Speaker 1: that he used primarily for pizzas.
Speaker 2: Would you work over lunch or work? Was it seamless
Speaker 2: you just worked in e and eate and work those No.
Speaker 1: It was all one one Monday. I think it was
Speaker 1: all one thing, isn't it. It's when we talk and
Speaker 1: we exercise and interrogate and wonder about the world and
Speaker 1: the people around us, and it's that fluency of just
Speaker 1: all being one almost one conversation. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: danger that we will talk about things that are easy
Speaker 1: to measure, you know, characteristics that are easy to measure
Speaker 1: with a number, because that's a conversation that's inclusive. You know,
Speaker 1: we will talk about speed or hie or weight or
Speaker 1: and people, particularly with products, will do that. What do
Speaker 1: you mean, well, I mean, if you're talking about a
Speaker 1: product own people will be and you have a broad
Speaker 1: diverse collection of people engineers, marketing people, designers, certain things
Speaker 1: like well, how much does this way? How fast is
Speaker 1: this how much is it going to cost? These are attributes.
Speaker 1: These are characteristics that you can measure with a number.
Speaker 1: So those are easy conversations, and Steve and I understood that,
Speaker 1: and we understood that. The insidious danger is that you,
Speaker 1: because they're easy conversations, you make the terrible mistake to
Speaker 1: think they're important. And there are many, many really important
Speaker 1: things that are ignored because there aren't easy measures.
Speaker 2: When we think about food, we think about health, we
Speaker 2: think about the health that you've given us for measuring
Speaker 2: on your watch. What were you know from Calies, as
Speaker 2: I said, to a heartbeat to our is that a
Speaker 2: measure that you think about when you do?
Speaker 1: I think there's something. I've spent a lot of my
Speaker 1: life working on tools, and I'm very clear in my
Speaker 1: mind that design that my practice is applied are and
Speaker 1: so it's really making tools. The thing that I think
Speaker 1: is so extraordinary about food is that, of course there
Speaker 1: is a a functional imperative around food in terms of nourishment,
Speaker 1: but how incredible that it doesn't stop there.
Speaker 2: And when you have a problem that you want to solve,
Speaker 2: or a discussion that you have, would you go to
Speaker 2: a restaurant to do that at a table?
Speaker 1: I have frequently and become private, isn't it? I mean,
Speaker 1: it's so curious when you're sat at the table. The
Speaker 1: table is in front of you, but actually it protects
Speaker 1: your back as well, doesn't it. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: remember Child's renamed Macintosh. It does very tall you know,
Speaker 1: some of the dark Devaux equivalent, but the chairs with
Speaker 1: the very high back. And I remember art school and
Speaker 1: I'm actually remember visiting the Glasgow School of Art and
Speaker 1: so curious how those tall backs created a space and
Speaker 1: a volume. But what I love about sitting at a
Speaker 1: table when you're eating, there's something about I mean, it's
Speaker 1: very unusual to have a horizontal plane in front of you,
Speaker 1: but when it has food on, it signals that the
Speaker 1: world can sort of miss you and you can just
Speaker 1: be with the you know, the people there are a
Speaker 1: table with. But it does creates I think a sort
Speaker 1: of sacred space in a way that's different from a
Speaker 1: picnic or eating on a park bench. Different in so
Speaker 1: many ways.
Speaker 2: An open kitchen in the River Cafe means we as
Speaker 2: chefs are able to talk to our guests dining in
Speaker 2: the restaurant, sharing how we cook their food, where the
Speaker 2: ingredients come from, as well as hints and advice for
Speaker 2: cooking the recipes in the books. And now we're bringing
Speaker 2: that same ethos to our podcast, a Question an Answer
Speaker 2: episode with me and our two executive chefs, Sean Winnowen
Speaker 2: and Joseph Travelli. All we need is to hear from
Speaker 2: you about what you would like to know. Send a
Speaker 2: voice note with your question to Questions at Rivercafe dot
Speaker 2: co dot uk and you might just be our next
Speaker 2: great guest on Ruthie's Table four. When Steve became ill
Speaker 2: did the lunch's stall was a very different experience of
Speaker 2: food for you when seeing somebody through their illness and food.
Speaker 1: They certainly didn't stop. I mean there was a point
Speaker 1: when he was too ill.
Speaker 2: It's a connection of food and lunch time and being
Speaker 2: together that.
Speaker 1: Was still really important. Heartbeat. I mean, isn't it funny
Speaker 1: even if even if you're not going to eat much,
Speaker 1: it's lunchtime. I mean, I think that speaks so speaks
Speaker 1: so clearly to just the importance of stopping and pausing
Speaker 1: and being with someone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, You've spent a lot of time in Italy. I've
Speaker 2: been with you in Italy. We were in Venice together,
Speaker 2: We've been in a Malfi together. But you also we
Speaker 2: could talk from them about Ferrari. Ferrari is from a
Speaker 2: fantastic region of Italy. You were in Mo dinner or
Speaker 2: in more in Marinello, Marinella, and what was food like there?
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel so lucky because I've experienced food
Speaker 1: to start with in Italy being on vacation, and so
Speaker 1: you're right, you see, you have a particular attitude and
Speaker 1: you're in a particular your consciousness is different, isn't it
Speaker 1: when you're on vacation. And I've been fortunate to be
Speaker 1: able to also enjoy being in Italy working and being
Speaker 1: in Marinello and going to the restaurant that Enzo Ferrari
Speaker 1: went to.
Speaker 2: What was that like?
Speaker 1: It's fabulous. So John al cam has refurbished and restored.
Speaker 3: But I.
Speaker 1: Love eating in Italy. I really do you love about it?
Speaker 1: That it's important, and that it's the food is so good. Particularly,
Speaker 1: I love simple and it's not fussy. I love when
Speaker 1: it's not fussy, when it's simple and the basic ingredients
Speaker 1: are so good. I stayed, actually I stayed once working
Speaker 1: with John A. Ferrari at a I guess a farm,
Speaker 1: but it will wear balsamic vinegar, yes it may. And
Speaker 1: the hotel you could not escape the smell of vinegar.
Speaker 1: But there were these gorgeous rooms where these great wooden
Speaker 1: vats are where the vinegar was resting. But that you
Speaker 1: could go from that to seeing the farms that you
Speaker 1: would drive past on the way into the factory.
Speaker 2: I would like to ask you about the Royal College
Speaker 2: of Art, because that is education, it's culture, it's young people,
Speaker 2: it's communication. You've been the Chancellor of the Royal College
Speaker 2: and that is a huge honor and also someone that's
Speaker 2: chosen to really do it in a very serious way.
Speaker 2: What does that mean to you.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the most remarkable days of my
Speaker 1: year is as chancellor, watching hundreds and hundreds of students
Speaker 1: receive their certificate and their degrees, and I'm so struck
Speaker 1: by you know, when you see just one person and
Speaker 1: you just think that their journey is only theirs, and
Speaker 1: that they fell off a bike and they had to
Speaker 1: struggle to read and they but you're so aware of
Speaker 1: how particularly unique everybody's journey is. And then when you
Speaker 1: see hundreds and hundreds of people in community celebrating an
Speaker 1: important chapter close, I think that's remarkable.
Speaker 2: And so we talked about food as curiosity, exploring different foods,
Speaker 2: growing food in the soil, picking peas. It's also food
Speaker 2: is comfort and so what Johnny I've sir Johnny I
Speaker 2: would be your comfort food?
Speaker 1: I would say it would be one of your pizzas,
Speaker 1: be peas, just peace. But I quite like, if I'm honest,
Speaker 1: and a chocolate digestive, because I don't have the.
Speaker 2: Minimum like the milk ones or the plaines.
Speaker 1: I see, I know what you're thinking.
Speaker 2: There are two different times.
Speaker 1: I know, I quite like the milk on the milk one.
Speaker 2: I'll give you any time I'll get you.
Speaker 1: Please don't go with the pizza. Okay, thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 2: Ruth
Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership
Speaker 4: with Montclair