WEBVTT - Jony Ive 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.680 You are listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:08.680 Here at Ruthie's Table four, we have something exciting to 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.879 tell you. Our new substack has just launched. You will 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.800 find all kinds of extra material from the River Cafe, 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:21.000 including recipes, our latest news, and bonus content from the podcast. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:24.239 If you enjoy listening to this series as much as 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.640 I enjoy talking with our guests, visit the River Cafe 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:36.440 dot substack and subscribe. See you there. One of the 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.000 questions I'm often asked is where and when did you 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.000 meet Sir Johnny I've the person whose designs changed the world. Well, 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.839 the answer is we met in the White House at 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:51.279 a spectacular state dinner when Barack Obama was president and 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.440 Hope was in the air. We were kind of orphans. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.760 Neither my husband Richard nor Johnny's wife Heather could come, 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.000 and we'd both recently lost our best friends of work 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.280 partners for him, Steve Jobs and for me Rose Gray. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.560 It was the beginning of one of the most important 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.600 friendships I have. Johnny's designs for Apple with Steve Jobs 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.920 transformed the way we live. On my wrist is the 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.520 Apple Watch, counting my steps, checking my heartbeat on facetap. 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.440 Last night I read a bedtime story to my granddaughter. 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.080 Often the last thing I read is a text from 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.920 Johnny on my iPhone asking how are you Ruthie? How 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.920 was your day? But today my friend is not five 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.480 thousand miles away, but here in the river cafe next 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.880 to me, as close as can be, Ruthie. So how 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:44.760 was making the pizzas? What was that like? 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:50.320 It was warm? The ovens is He's pink and warm 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:57.200 and smelt gorgeous. That teledio whnette starts to bubble smells extraordinary. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.080 But we used to have a a wood fired oven, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:07.520 an apple very often I would have had the pizza 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.040 and to see something actually because of the little door 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.400 you put it in, to see something actually being cooked, 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.440 not going behind the door, and just then it becomes 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.240 about time. But when you actually see it, yeah, I 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.120 think is particularly special. 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:29.200 So would you like to read the recipes? Did not? 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.000 Did you going to eat? I'm going to eat it later. 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:40.040 So this recipe is for teleggio pizza with herbs or herbs. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.760 So we need one batch of tuscan pizza dough, three 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:51.640 tablespoons of extra olive oil, four hundred grams of telegio 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:56.080 cut into pieces, and then a bunch of time. Now 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.840 we didn't have time earlier, so we had what we 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:05.760 just had was basil gorgeous zucchini flowers. We had merrygolds 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.600 which if you hold that the orange of the merrygolds, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.200 hold it up again. Pink and orange are this beautiful, 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:19.120 very fizzy combination. So I love the merrygolds to look 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.080 at it, and I haven't eaten them yet. Sea salt 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.480 and some freshly ground pepper. I put the sea salt on. 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:32.120 Preheat your oven to two hundred and thirty degrees. Divide 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.720 the dough balls into eight balls and roll each one 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.920 out into twenty five centimeter or two hundred and fifty 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.480 millimeter discs if you, if you have any precision in you, Ruthie. 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:47.920 And it was very very thin. 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.240 Yeah, you do very thin. When we were in the 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.240 south of Italy though, they were very thick. You know. 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:59.080 They're thick the further we go, which are also really delicious, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.160 you know, but if you're having a if you're having 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.360 dinner and then you want something, you wouldn't want a 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:04.960 big thick that. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.360 I thought, well, I do love the very thin, no 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:13.680 it's and then cover each pizza base with a single 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:19.839 layer of tillegio, drizzle with olive oil. Finally scatter with 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:26.239 seasonal herbs such as thyme, basil, or zucchini flowers. Place 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.480 the pizza in the oven and cook until the base 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.239 is crisp at the edges and the cheese has melted. 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:35.440 And serve hot. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:41.320 Pizzas need to be hot. So did you pizza set up? 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.839 We can order? We can order a pizza. So when 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.680 you were growing up and you're you were born where 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:47.920 Johnny so? 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.520 I was born in North London, right where London up, 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.440 in a place called Chingford, and it's right where London 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:01.200 was halted in its growth by the green Belt, which 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:06.400 was epping forest. So literally the road ended and the 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:07.200 forest began. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.839 So what was the food like in your house? What 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.839 was a kitchen like? Let's start with a kitchen. 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:17.160 We had a big bread mixer that was made by 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:22.120 Brown and was probably the most beautiful thing I think 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:22.680 we owned. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.320 Why was that? Was your mother or father a breadmaker? 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:26.720 Did they? 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.200 Well? They were. I was brought up primarily vegetarian. A 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.280 lot of bread was made, most of it it wasn't 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.800 very nice actually, I'll tell you that's something absolutely dreadful. 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:44.400 It was made probably weakly, but my parents worked, and 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:49.120 so she would make sandwiches for me to take to 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:54.960 school on Sunday and then freeze them and then take 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.680 the sandwich out the night before and it would dethor 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.680 in time for the next day. Just just so. The 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.239 sandwiches were always chilly, but they were always wet because 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:12.800 there was something about tomatoes and lettuce defrosting that I 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.159 think caused havoc in the sandwich departs. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.000 As you were describing a woman who worked, a woman 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.640 who had to go to work in the morning and 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.360 see that her children had something to eat at lunchtime, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.240 what did she do? 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:32.279 She was a teacher, so she was philosophy. But my grandparents, 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:38.479 because both of my parents worked, I was essentially raised 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:44.760 by my father's mom and dad, and they were vegetarian 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:49.600 and grew or made almost everything that they ate in 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:56.080 a tiny garden. There was a greenhouse, and digging up potatoes. 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.479 My favorite, without a doubt, is you know, harvesting taken 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.840 the peas, shelling peas. I've shown thousands of peas and 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.360 probably yielded about ten percent that got to the table. 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.400 And tomatoes, but all their garden and chingfri. Yeah, but 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:20.400 that's what was odd. It was the difference between something 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:26.840 that was ten minutes ago was growing and to watch 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:32.840 on the tiny little My grandmother had a little electric 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.560 oven made by company called Belling. Such a tiny kitchen 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:45.160 she had and still some of the most extraordinary dinners 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:46.280 and lunches. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.520 I remember what she made with potatoes. Do you remember 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:50.840 how she would cook the potatoes. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.280 Yes, so she absolutely so. They would only be scrubbed 0:07:55.680 --> 0:08:00.720 and quite gently boiled, but with mint she you know 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.360 it also put well know that I picked after digging 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.760 up the potatoes, and it was as simple as just potatoes, 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.280 and then tomatoes if it was good, and I hadn't 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:14.960 eaten them, more peas. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.720 And your father what was his what was his career? 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.120 Well, he trained as a silversmith and a cabinet maker 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:28.120 and then became a teacher and a professor. His specialism 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:33.080 was art and design. And my Christmas present would be 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.840 he would say, we will go into the workshops during 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.320 during Christmas, which I'm sure was illegal, and we would 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.320 go in for one day and he said, you know, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.800 we will make together whatever whatever you want with the 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.280 one condition that you design it, and to me, he 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.080 didn't actually say designed, what would have been I think 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.640 I started doing that when I was probably about seven 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:05.000 or eight, so very But what was curious. He didn't 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.719 say design it, He said think about it and explain 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.600 it to me, probably with a drawing. And what a 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:14.920 wonderful definition of. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:19.400 Design explaining by a drawing. Also, what you've described is 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.040 how a vegetable grows about. You know, being in the 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.520 workshop with your father is about process, isn't it. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.560 I think it's part of the human condition that we 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:37.959 assume everything that is made, everything that grows, is inevitable. Now, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.480 maybe it's necessary because if we're truly startled and full 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.760 of the joy and celebration of everything around us, we 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.240 wouldn't get much done. Perhaps, But I think probably one 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:55.040 of the things that defines people that I love is 0:09:55.280 --> 0:10:02.160 the simple joy and curiosity about this chair, How did 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:07.319 it get here? How was it made? The pizza, seeing 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:16.240 this floppy dough change into something rigid and crispy. And 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:22.319 I think when you understand process and you celebrated, the 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.600 glorious thing is that you end up I think, connecting 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.800 to your environment, to the world in a much deeper way, 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:38.200 And I think it also brings a humility you just realize, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.080 and I think you become very aware of your small 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.960 part as part of humanity, you know, part of our species. 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.520 So when you left the nurturing and the note of 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.120 your grandparents being nearby, of your mother making that effort 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.280 to make bread, your father taking you into the workshop, 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.560 and then you went to university. When I left that, 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.920 did you create a kind of home for yourself and 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.240 you met Heather quite soon or did you were so 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:11.480 absorbed in working and designing that food became maybe secondary 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.920 or something you grabbed. What was the food like for you? 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.880 I think food certainly at art school it was functional 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:26.160 and sadly rather joyless. And I got married when we 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.000 were up in Newcastle. We came back and lived in 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:31.920 Greenwich for a few. 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.480 Years and we've had an apartment. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.600 Yeah, we just had a small apartment. But I used 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:41.600 to then. I used to work in Shoreditch for Tangerine. 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:42.240 And Small Design. 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.440 It's just a very small design group, but it was 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.160 near Possibly the best thing about it was it was 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.720 close to brick Lane and I love Curry. I mean, 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.400 the culture of brick Layne was so interesting. I mean, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.920 many of the restaurants didn't have the licensed to sell alcohol, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.560 and so you were typically going by alcohol at the 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.480 you know, the off license next door and just then 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.960 go into the restaurant. But I've had some just just 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:14.360 extraordinary dinners there. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.880 And when you went to San Francisco, it was for 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:21.239 me San Francisco with Alice Walters, and with Judy Rogers 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.840 and now with Quins with Napa Valley. It's such a 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.599 food culture. Or was that also? Were you not in 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.000 a phase where you could actually just go no food. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.320 There was a culture of eating out which I had 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.920 never never been part of before, and so we would 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:43.680 eat out all the time. I mean, Japanice was incredible on. 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.479 The farm to the table, a bit like you're grandparents, 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.480 you know that you take something from farm. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.080 I moved in ninety two, so I've been there for 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.360 you know, well over thirty years. 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.640 Imagine a state bottled olive oil chosen and bottled for 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.600 the River Cafe, arriving at your door every month. Our 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.600 subscription is available for six or twelve months, with each 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.160 oil chosen personally by our head chefs and varying with 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.520 each delivery. It's a perfect way to bring some River 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.800 Cafe flavor into your home, or to show someone you 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.480 really care for them with a gift. Visit our website 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.440 shop the Rivercafe dot co dot uk to place your order. 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:37.840 Now I'm joined on the phone now with Mark Newson, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.320 a very close friend of Johnny Ive a very close 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.640 friend of mine, to talk to us about Johnny and 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.800 working with him. Mark, how did you and Johnny end 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:49.760 up working together? 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.920 Johnny and I started out being friends. You know, we 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.720 were both designers, and we didn't work together originally. Johnny was, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.640 you know, had just started working at Apple with Steve 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.320 Job back in I guess early to mid nineties. Johnny 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.320 effectively invited me to come to Apple to help work 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.760 on the Apple Watch. And that's a particular project that 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.839 I think is a really fascinating example in terms of. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:14.560 How he thinks. 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.280 Johnny always loved watches, and he was always fascinated by watches, 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.240 and he always said he wanted to do a watch. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.000 He wanted to do a watch at Apple. But you know, 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.600 we're talking more than a decade before it was even 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.440 sort of muted as a possibility, and no one could 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.640 least of all me. Actually, no one could quite get 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:35.640 their head around. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:36.000 What it was. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.920 He was thinking, you know how, in the context of Apple, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.920 would you kind of create a watch? Did the world 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.960 need a watch? This wasn't long after the iPhone, the 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.160 iPad had not long been invented, but he had this 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.040 vision to create a watch, and clearly he managed to 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.640 convince everyone, the powers that be at Apple, to proceed 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.000 with this project. You know, clearly it was going to 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.840 look good, most likely was going to be a success, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.560 although I guess that wasn't entirely clear at the time. 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.800 You know, the idea of bringing back a product which 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.800 your parents or grandparents would have been very comfortable with, 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.240 yet you know children of that generation simply didn't know 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.720 or didn't own, was stunning. And then all of a sudden, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.240 people are wearing watches again. It was like reintroducing this 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.600 whole new thing, which actually wasn't new, that you wear 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.880 on your wrist. But now I'm amazed. You see them 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.480 on people on television, you see them all around the world. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.040 I mean, it's a device like the iPhone or the 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:37.920 iPad that cuts through every conceivable geographical, socioeconomic, almost background. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.280 So you know, it's an incredibly accessible thing. I guess 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.400 safe to say, it's the most produced watch in the 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.840 history of watches. So that was born out of a 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.520 kind of a desire that Johnny had that no one 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:57.240 else could identify or even see. He's sort of cut 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.560 from a slightly different cloth from the rest of us. 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.240 I think, Mark, what do. 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.240 You think is unique about Johnese's approach to design? 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.320 Most designers really wish they could kind of look into 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.960 a crystal ball and see the future, because you know, 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.280 what you're doing is creating. You know, ideally you're creating 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:19.000 products that people want and maybe even people need, But 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.560 most importantly, you want to create products that sort of 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.040 somehow stand the test of time. And in many ways 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.080 it does require being able to look into the future. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.680 But clearly that's a very difficult or most impossible thing 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:35.920 to do, except probably if you're Johnny. Because being able 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:42.720 to somehow envisage where we'll be in say, ten years time, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.440 and imagine the world around and what it will be like, 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.400 you know, how it will be different to where we 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.120 are right now. That's where he's really, really, really clever. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.440 And you know, the Apple Watch was a great case 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.200 in point. There are lots of products that he's been 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:00.240 involved in designing that I think really clearly demonstrate that. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:09.680 One of the things I feel particularly fortunate having such 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:15.119 a close relationship with Steve. I got to grow up 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:20.600 in Silicon Valley, benefiting from seeing the area through his eyes. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.800 Now he grew up in Silicon Valley, he remembers when 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.080 the valley was Johnny that used to be an orchard 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:33.240 of apricotrees, and the way that he understood though the 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:39.640 valley in relationship to San Francisco. So his sense of 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:45.280 the importance of San Francisco was quite beautiful, and you 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.120 then got a sense of, you know, even though it's 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.320 fifty miles away, you then also have a sense of Okay, 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:57.280 Napa Valley where you have extraordinary wine, and the vineyards 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.280 up in Napa Valley are really really beautiful. 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.399 What was Steve jobs your relationship? You know, I can 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.480 said how we both lost our partner. So Steve was 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.679 so important in your life. And I know you've spoken 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.879 about what it was like as a friend, as a 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.240 colleague working every day with him, but can we also 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.800 talk about what was his relationship to food? Did you 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.600 two eat together? Did you share meals? And did he 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:23.560 care about food? 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.159 We had lunch together nearly every day, so we were 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.399 Monday to Friday. We would either have lunch in the 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:38.480 canteena apple, or we would go out together. And he 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.160 was sort of vegetarian, maybe pescatarian. I mean he did 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:48.600 love sashimi and he had I think, an extraordinary palette. 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.959 I mean, we would love going for sashimi together. But 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:57.760 he I think we could both eat a tomato and 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:03.119 just a tomato with great olive oil and be could 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.919 never be happier than that. But in his kitchen he 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.800 had a wood fired other than that you at home 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.240 that he used primarily for pizzas. 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.200 Would you work over lunch or work? Was it seamless 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.800 you just worked in e and eate and work those No. 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:22.879 It was all one one Monday. I think it was 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.640 all one thing, isn't it. It's when we talk and 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:31.760 we exercise and interrogate and wonder about the world and 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.879 the people around us, and it's that fluency of just 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.359 all being one almost one conversation. You know, there's a 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.840 danger that we will talk about things that are easy 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.199 to measure, you know, characteristics that are easy to measure 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:54.080 with a number, because that's a conversation that's inclusive. You know, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.919 we will talk about speed or hie or weight or 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.800 and people, particularly with products, will do that. What do 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.919 you mean, well, I mean, if you're talking about a 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.000 product own people will be and you have a broad 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:13.960 diverse collection of people engineers, marketing people, designers, certain things 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.560 like well, how much does this way? How fast is 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.280 this how much is it going to cost? These are attributes. 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.800 These are characteristics that you can measure with a number. 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:29.600 So those are easy conversations, and Steve and I understood that, 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:36.760 and we understood that. The insidious danger is that you, 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.000 because they're easy conversations, you make the terrible mistake to 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.480 think they're important. And there are many, many really important 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.720 things that are ignored because there aren't easy measures. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.439 When we think about food, we think about health, we 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.600 think about the health that you've given us for measuring 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.760 on your watch. What were you know from Calies, as 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.240 I said, to a heartbeat to our is that a 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:06.560 measure that you think about when you do? 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.199 I think there's something. I've spent a lot of my 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.600 life working on tools, and I'm very clear in my 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:20.280 mind that design that my practice is applied are and 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.640 so it's really making tools. The thing that I think 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.800 is so extraordinary about food is that, of course there 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:34.240 is a a functional imperative around food in terms of nourishment, 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.680 but how incredible that it doesn't stop there. 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.679 And when you have a problem that you want to solve, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.159 or a discussion that you have, would you go to 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.199 a restaurant to do that at a table? 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:50.760 I have frequently and become private, isn't it? I mean, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.119 it's so curious when you're sat at the table. The 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.080 table is in front of you, but actually it protects 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:57.800 your back as well, doesn't it. I mean, you know, 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.280 remember Child's renamed Macintosh. It does very tall you know, 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.720 some of the dark Devaux equivalent, but the chairs with 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:10.560 the very high back. And I remember art school and 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.119 I'm actually remember visiting the Glasgow School of Art and 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:21.000 so curious how those tall backs created a space and 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.240 a volume. But what I love about sitting at a 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.440 table when you're eating, there's something about I mean, it's 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:32.560 very unusual to have a horizontal plane in front of you, 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:38.240 but when it has food on, it signals that the 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.000 world can sort of miss you and you can just 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.760 be with the you know, the people there are a 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:48.360 table with. But it does creates I think a sort 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:53.359 of sacred space in a way that's different from a 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.439 picnic or eating on a park bench. Different in so 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:57.119 many ways. 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.399 An open kitchen in the River Cafe means we as 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.080 chefs are able to talk to our guests dining in 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:13.040 the restaurant, sharing how we cook their food, where the 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.800 ingredients come from, as well as hints and advice for 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.119 cooking the recipes in the books. And now we're bringing 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.639 that same ethos to our podcast, a Question an Answer 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.480 episode with me and our two executive chefs, Sean Winnowen 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.520 and Joseph Travelli. All we need is to hear from 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.320 you about what you would like to know. Send a 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:37.480 voice note with your question to Questions at Rivercafe dot 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:40.879 co dot uk and you might just be our next 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:52.960 great guest on Ruthie's Table four. When Steve became ill 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.600 did the lunch's stall was a very different experience of 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:03.040 food for you when seeing somebody through their illness and food. 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.160 They certainly didn't stop. I mean there was a point 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.800 when he was too ill. 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:14.360 It's a connection of food and lunch time and being 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:14.800 together that. 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.280 Was still really important. Heartbeat. I mean, isn't it funny 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.320 even if even if you're not going to eat much, 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:27.480 it's lunchtime. I mean, I think that speaks so speaks 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.960 so clearly to just the importance of stopping and pausing 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:33.280 and being with someone. 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.800 Yeah, You've spent a lot of time in Italy. I've 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:37.679 been with you in Italy. We were in Venice together, 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.320 We've been in a Malfi together. But you also we 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.080 could talk from them about Ferrari. Ferrari is from a 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.960 fantastic region of Italy. You were in Mo dinner or 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:51.720 in more in Marinello, Marinella, and what was food like there? 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:57.119 I mean, I feel so lucky because I've experienced food 0:24:57.200 --> 0:24:59.720 to start with in Italy being on vacation, and so 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.359 you're right, you see, you have a particular attitude and 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:08.479 you're in a particular your consciousness is different, isn't it 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:12.639 when you're on vacation. And I've been fortunate to be 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:17.880 able to also enjoy being in Italy working and being 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:22.320 in Marinello and going to the restaurant that Enzo Ferrari 0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:22.760 went to. 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:23.600 What was that like? 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:28.320 It's fabulous. So John al cam has refurbished and restored. 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:29.199 But I. 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:33.920 Love eating in Italy. I really do you love about it? 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:39.760 That it's important, and that it's the food is so good. Particularly, 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.680 I love simple and it's not fussy. I love when 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:49.359 it's not fussy, when it's simple and the basic ingredients 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.760 are so good. I stayed, actually I stayed once working 0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:59.159 with John A. Ferrari at a I guess a farm, 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.760 but it will wear balsamic vinegar, yes it may. And 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:08.440 the hotel you could not escape the smell of vinegar. 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:13.960 But there were these gorgeous rooms where these great wooden 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.840