1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to our classic episode, Conspiracy Realist. Hey, guys, do 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: you sometimes think that rich people might be rigging the game? No, 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: just a little. I just choose to believe the narrative. 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: Yes, is the answer to that question. 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Kay, are right, I'm being coy. 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 2: They've been doing it since the dawn of time. And 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: this episode, y'all, is a very specific one about the 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: death of a journalist who was covering this very thing. 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: We call it the Panama Papers. Let's get to it. 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is our compatriot, 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: are Better Third is on a bit of an adventure, 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: but he will return shortly. 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: Better Third, Crucial, Third, Crucial Third. In the meantime, they 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: call me Ben. We were joined as always with our 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: super producer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: want you to know. A little bit of true crime today. 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: Matt, Yeah, very true and very crime. 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: Yes, and very much ongoing. So longtime listeners will remember 23 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: that back in the day we had Alex Winter on 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: this show. That's right, Do you remember that? 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: Well? 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It was one of my favorite interviews we've 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: ever done, one of the Bill and Ted of the 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, and was the other one. 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: The Bogus Journey fogust Journey, Bogus Journey featuring Death. 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: But he's not just some silly young kid running through 31 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: time and trying to finish papers for a history class. No, 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: that gentleman Alex Winter. He is a documentarian and he 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 2: has put out some great work. One was on the 34 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: Deep Web or the dark Net, and that's what we 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: interviewed him for. 36 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: And this this guy incredibly nice, very generous with his time, 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: loves hot pockets. I think that's still my favorite part 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: of the interview. Did that make it onto the air. 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: I don't know if I think we may. 40 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: Have cut that part. There was a part in the 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: interview just backstage off Mic. It was probably off Mike 42 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: because we're professionals now or what. Yeah, he said, hang on, guys, 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: he's making a very good point about something. He said, 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, hold on, he said what And 45 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: then we hear Dan in the background He's like, I'm 46 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: making hot pockets, Like. 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: Don't eat him, it's too hot yet. Yeah, just wait, 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: wait for a second. 49 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, the weight it was the worst part. We really bonded. Yeah. 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: He did Deep Web, which was a fascinating exploration of 51 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: something that I think a lot of people get wrong 52 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: when they read about it in the news. But that 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: is far from his only film. He also released a 54 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: documentary recently on the Panama Papers. 55 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: Yes, the Panama Papers. This is a topic that we've 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: done an episode on before. In the past. It was 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: called money Mystery and Millionaires. 58 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: It was a very illiterative phase for us. 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. But the Panama Papers were is 60 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: a very serious thing. It was a leak, the largest 61 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: leak in human. 62 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: History, something around eleven point five million files from dating 63 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: back to the seventies to twenty fifteen or so. That's 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: two point six terabytes of data detailing these secret financial 65 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: relationships and attorning client privileged information, the kind of stuff 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: you would never ordinarily see. 67 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was dealing. You're talking about shell companies and 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: offshore accounts and secret just money moving, almost laundering almost 69 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: in some cases. 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: It was definitely laundry. Yes, so this This all comes 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: from a law firm in Panama called Massik Fonseka. 72 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: Yep, that's that's the one. And so you might wonder, well, 73 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: why on earth would someone at music Fonseica send out 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: that much information. Well, there was a person who was 75 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: identified as John Doe. They were given to a German 76 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: newspaper by this anonymous person, and then there was a landslide, 77 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: essentially a very secretive landslide of information, and people investigating 78 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: kind of in the shadows because this seemed like very 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: dangerous stuff to have. 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed it did, because this involves over two hundred 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: thousand different offshore entities. And this John Doe spoiler alert folks, 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: that's probably not this person's real name. 83 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: Gonna, you know, gonna go ahead and say, I probably. 84 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: Agree, Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't ordinarily profile. But this, this character, 85 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: this John Doe person said that they themselves feared for 86 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: their lives because the nature of the evidence, just the facts, 87 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: the information that's involved in this leak. In some cases 88 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: it confirmed long suspected crimes. We know this person is 89 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: maybe doing something very white collar like tax avoidance, Yeah, 90 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: but we can't quite prove it, We can't quite follow 91 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: the money due to different different countries ways of handling 92 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: financial transactions. That's a big thing, yes. 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: And these types of financial transactions a lot of times 94 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 2: in our minds, I think collectively, we think of this 95 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: as something that maybe a drug lord would participate in, 96 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 2: maybe somebody who is doing some kind of illegal activity 97 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: that needs to, like we said, launder money for some reason. 98 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: But what we found out in these Panela papers is 99 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: that these kinds of activities are just kind of par 100 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: for the course for anyone who has enough money. 101 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, above a certain threshold, it is normalized to engage 102 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: in these sorts of practices. And in our previous episode, 103 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: which you absolutely should listen to if you haven't checked 104 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: it out yet, in our previous episode, we explore how 105 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: the German paper came to find the safest way to 106 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: disseminate and analyze this info. We also found just how 107 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: many people had been to your point, Matt, how many 108 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: people had been named. These financial movements through shell companies 109 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: involve athletes, involve bankers, involve criminals you know as in 110 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: like drug cartel overlords and stuff, but it also involves politicians. 111 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: British Prime Minister David Camberon was implicated in this. Yeah, 112 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: and the Icelandic Prime Minister Sigmunder Goonluk Sun had to resign. 113 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: I believe he ultimately stepped down. Also, a lot of 114 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: these transactions that we see moving money from one shell 115 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: company to another to get the best tax position. That 116 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: stuff's legal. It's a legal thing. 117 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, then what are you gonna do about it? Right? 118 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just we're the big players of the 119 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: world and this is what we're doing. If it's if 120 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: it's proven to be tax avoidance, then it's illegal. If 121 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: it's just moving money around and make sure it's safe 122 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: in Switzerland somewhere, or Panama, it's fine. 123 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Sure, it's just gambling. And you know, Vegas baby, that's 124 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: what That's probably what people say. 125 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: That's what they That's what they all say in Panama. 126 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: Vegas baby, that's what they all say. 127 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: That's what they all say. In the country of Panama. 128 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: They'll say, Vegas baby. Why is this a big deal? Though? 129 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: If these things are legal, if it's just a depiction 130 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: of a confidential yet still legal financial process, what gives 131 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: where's the beef? 132 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: Well, because not all of it is legal. 133 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: That's right. 134 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 135 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, In multiple cases, the transactions indicate some pretty heavy stuff. 136 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: Perhaps most importantly, the Panama papers show the clear process 137 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: through which these sorts of financial crimes occur. It's possible 138 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: using this information to follow money from point A to B, 139 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: to C to Z and so on. That is in 140 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: itself extraordinary. So from a criminal perspective, this exposes a 141 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: large industry built entirely to hide money, whether it's a 142 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: legal form of tax avoidance, whether it's out and out fraud, 143 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: whether it's bribery disguised as a loan, which I thought 144 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: was interesting. 145 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you're hitting the nail on the 146 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: head here, Ben. It's not even so much about the 147 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: players that are essentially the clients moving money. It's about 148 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: the system like the at Masak Fonseka that was built 149 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: to do this thing, the giant, I don't know what 150 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: we call it, the machine that ends up processing everything. 151 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: That's where that's that can be dangerous. 152 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking too. So for instance, 153 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: let's let's go with the automobile analogy. Okay, all right, 154 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: So the people riding in the car, or are the 155 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: people named in these transactions, got a gasoline or petrol 156 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: or whatever is the money. 157 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: Just got pumping in. 158 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: Okay, And what the Panama Papers showed us was the engine. 159 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: It took us under the hood. And so we see 160 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: how the money moves, and we know it takes these 161 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: people to certain places. Right. 162 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 3: I don't want to overthink this comparison. 163 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: Maybe the passengers are the money, Okay, the engine is 164 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: the machine that's moving it to somewhere because the money 165 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: is going places, right yeah. 166 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 3: Okay, then and you're spending money to do it. 167 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, that's right. So the money is also the gas. 168 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get a whiteboard. Paul, do we have a whiteboard? Wait? 169 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: Wait, Paul's been writing all this down. He's just been 170 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: etching it into the wall. Oh wow, that's very helpful. 171 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: We are going to have to replace that to Paul. 172 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: You know, it needs to be transparent. This terrible comparison 173 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: we've created should exist for all time. It wasn't that bad. 174 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was great, But the release of these 175 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: papers was not great for the folks involved. It was 176 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: not all sunshine and rainbows on their end. No. 177 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you can kind of feel that Ben and 178 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: I are having fun in the studio and this is 179 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: one of those topics that is going to get very heavy. 180 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: We just I think that's something that Ben you and 181 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: I do when we're talking about something that's pretty heavy. 182 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: Just give a little lightness to it, but prepare yourself. 183 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. This is a bit of the 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: I called it. I used to call it the MPR 185 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: story formula, but it's not not really MPR. It's more 186 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: programs that are on MPR, like the Moth or something. 187 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: So what you do is you start out with a 188 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: lighthearted statement or something very bold in one sentence, got it, 189 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: and then you save the heavy stuff for the turn 190 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: at the end. And this is where we're approaching the 191 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: turn to our second half, folks, because when that German 192 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: paper student Deutsche Zeitung received the original leak and they 193 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: realized the size of the stuff they were dealing with, 194 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: they started, as you said, Matt, secretly asking for help 195 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: throughout the journalistic community. Yes, because we need multiple sources 196 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: to confirm this stuff is true. First off, do we 197 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: know this is even real? If so, how that's a long, arduous, 198 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: tedious process. And John Doe complicated it because John Doe, 199 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: fearing for their life, had certain conditions. 200 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they could only com or. He could only communicate 201 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: with them and them back through encrypted channels, which is 202 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: I would say, kind of standard for this kind of thing, 203 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: is very Edward Snowden in a way, almost like digitally 204 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: putting your cell phone in the freezer. They could also 205 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: never meet face to face, so neither side would know 206 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: exactly I guess who they were talking to. Well, in 207 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 2: this case, I'm sure John Doe knew some of the 208 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: names of the journalists, and you could definitely see through 209 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 2: his actions just how scared this John Doe was about 210 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: his actions and about the power that these papers held. 211 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: And as of today, we still know very very little 212 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: about this individual or this group of people pretending to 213 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: be an individual. We simply know that they treated this 214 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: situation with enormous gravity, and we still publicly don't know 215 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: their motivation for disseminating this knowledge. But as it turns out, 216 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: John Doe, whoever he or she or they may be, 217 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,479 Speaker 1: was absolutely correct. This was indeed a life or death situation, 218 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: and the story continued after we did our original episode. 219 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: So what do we mean when we say life or death? 220 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor. Here's 221 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. We'd like to introduce you to 222 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: Daphne Karuna Galizia. 223 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: She was born August twenty sixth, nineteen sixty four. She 224 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: was a Maltese journalist. She was an author and an activist, 225 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: and she was also a just a prolific blogger. She's 226 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: basically the you could call her a classic trope of 227 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: the no excuses I'm gonna tell truth to power investigative journalists, 228 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: essentially just functioning on her own and with organizations, but 229 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: definitely you could read you could read her passion for 230 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff in her blog, and if you're 231 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: interested in it right now, you can, like, as we're 232 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: talking about this up yeah, yeah, you can go over there. 233 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: Let me just pull it up really fast. The website 234 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: is Daphne d A p h n E Karuna c 235 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 2: A r u A n A Galiza g A l 236 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: I z i A dot com and you can go 237 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 2: there right now and you can just see all of 238 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: these posts that she made, and like I said, you 239 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: can you can see her passion. 240 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,479 Speaker 1: And she spent decades building her reputation in Malta and abroad, 241 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: primarily for investigations into what she saw as the corruption 242 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: riddled government society and industry of Malta. She examined things 243 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: like the link between Malta's online gambling and organized crime, 244 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: or something called the citizenship by investment scheme, also known 245 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: as golden visas. And this one was an interesting one 246 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: because this happens in a ton of countries. This happens 247 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: in the US, this happens in the UK if you 248 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: pay a certain amount of money, or you by paying 249 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: we mean in some cases, if you invest in a 250 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: company or something at a certain amount of money, maybe 251 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars, probably probably more. 252 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like it's a good starting point. 253 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: And then you get residency and eventually you get citizenship. 254 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: This is a legal thing. It's of course, it's incredibly unfair. Yeah, 255 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: most most citizenship requests that are granted every year are 256 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: not this. This is this is a wealthy person's loophole. 257 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 2: Yes, right. 258 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: So the problem with happening in Malta is that because 259 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: they're a member of the EU. Uh, there was concern 260 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: that they would they were essentially selling passports to people 261 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: who would be maybe unfriendly, uh, unfriendly to the West, 262 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: got it. But because they had an EU passport, they 263 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: could do things like travel to the US without a visa, 264 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: and they could also launder some money as well, because 265 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: with citizenship come certain rights. 266 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: Yes, she was on the trail of all kinds of 267 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: money laundering throughout her career, and also, you know, kind 268 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: of some other standard things like nepotism within government, within corporations, 269 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: government corruption, which is an old standby. 270 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: Yes, especially in Malta. 271 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was really speaking truth to power. 272 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: And she paid for it. Malta is not a large nation, 273 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: that's right. A lot of people know each other. She 274 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: was the target of intimidation, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits for 275 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: libel and so on for most of her career. She 276 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: was arrest by the multi police force twice. Someone set 277 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: the front door of their house on fire in ninety six. 278 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's really bad. The worst one is that 279 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: the family dog, her family's dog had its throat cut 280 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 2: and it was laid across her doorstep. 281 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: And then another dog got shot, I believe. Yeah, so 282 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: there was a murder attempt on her life. In two 283 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: thousand and six. The house was set on fire while 284 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: the family was asleep inside, and according to her son Matthew, 285 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: these threats occurred on an almost daily basis, so this 286 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: is a very high stakes life. Every day, thousands and 287 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: thousands of people are following her blog Running Commentary, and 288 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: she's also a regular contributor in Calmness for the Sunday 289 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: Times of Malta, the Malta Independent. 290 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 2: And just to point that out what Benja said there, 291 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 2: the Running Commentary is the name of the blog that 292 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier. 293 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah. The website is ww dot Daphne Karunagalizia 294 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: dot com, but the name of it is Running Commentary. 295 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: So far we've painted the picture of a fascinating journalist, 296 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: right and the largest leak in human history that we 297 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: know of. How are they related other than just accurate journalism. 298 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: They're related because it turns out that Galisio was the 299 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: first person to learn about Panamanian companies involved in various 300 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: crimes by Multese nationals and specifically politicians, specifically politicians, active politicians, 301 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: politicians and power. And she had put these pieces together 302 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: before the Panama papers leaked. They were transmitted to the 303 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: German paper in twenty fifteen. They went public in twenty sixteen, 304 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: but she had figured out some aspects of this and 305 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: the stuff she had figured out was confirmed by these 306 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: Panama papers leaking. 307 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, so back in February twenty sixteen, she was talking 308 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: about this guy, Conrad Mizzi or Measi. He was a 309 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: Maltese government minister and he had connections, or at least 310 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: she's hinting that he had connections to New Zealand and Panama. 311 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 2: Two of the places that we found in the Panama 312 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 2: papers were laundering money or at least involved in some 313 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: of those things. And then apparently he Mizzi revealed the 314 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 2: trust just two days after she started hinting at this stuff, 315 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: and he was claiming that it was meant to manage 316 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: his family's assets, which is one of his involvement with 317 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: these things. And that is one very common thing that 318 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: we see. The very very wealthy a lot of times 319 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: have assets that are tied up in familial relations, inheritance, 320 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: things like that, massive amounts of money and they have 321 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: to be protected. 322 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: And it's okay, right, trying to be nice, Yeah, I 323 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: get it. That same month, though, in February, this journalist 324 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: also revealed that the Prime Minister's chief of staff a 325 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: guy named Keith Shembrie, and the Prime Minister is Joseph 326 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: Musket At this time owned they owned a similar trust 327 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: in New Zealand, which in turn held a Panamanian shell company. 328 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: The leak confirmed that Missy Conrad Mizzy owned a company 329 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: called Herneville Incorporated, and that Missi and this guy Shembrie 330 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: had also opened another company, Tillgate Incorporated. These companies were 331 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: owned by the Orion Trust New Zealand Limited, which are 332 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: the same trustees of Mizzi and Shembrie's New Zealand Trust 333 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: and a couple of other things. 334 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so again that sounds really confusing. Sure, Yeah, basically 335 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: these guys opened front companies or shell corporations, not necessarily 336 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: front companies, those are different things. But there's shell corporations 337 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: that exist in these other companies other countries. And that's 338 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: what we know, right for sure. 339 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: That's what we know, that is proven, that is true. 340 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: And again Galicia was the person who exposed this information 341 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: in Malta, and she continued in twenty seventeen. She alleged 342 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: that another Panamanian company called a Grant was owned by 343 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: Michelle Mascott, the wife of the Prime Minister. These allegations 344 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: are what ostensibly compelled Mascott to call general elections in 345 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and he still won. He still won the election. 346 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 347 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: The last blog post that Galisia leaves, the last sentence 348 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: of the last blog posts that she would ever write, says, 349 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: there are crooks everywhere you look. Now the situation is desperate. 350 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: Then on October sixteenth, twenty seventeen, it was the last 351 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: time Matthew Karuna Galiza saw his mother alive. This is 352 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: this is her son. She was out running errands. She 353 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: was just heading to the bank in her car. It 354 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: was a gray Pougeot one eight. It's a type of vehicle. 355 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 2: And apparently a government minister had gotten the courts, you know, 356 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: perhaps out of some kind of backlash, I don't know, 357 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: but he had gotten the courts to freeze her bank accounts, 358 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: and she was intending to fight for access to her 359 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: funds because it's her money. Then her son, seemingly out 360 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: of nowhere, heard an explosion. He was only about eighty 361 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: meters away from where this explosion occurred, and according to Matthew, 362 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 2: he immediately knew, at least he felt at least that 363 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 2: this was a car bomb and it was meant for 364 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: his mother. 365 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: Yes, which is is something that sounds like maybe a 366 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: strange conclusion to jump to right away. 367 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 2: I imagine the I imagine there had to have been 368 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 2: some outward I don't want to say paranoia. I mean, 369 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: I'm sure it would manifest from the outside as paranoia, 370 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 2: but from the inside, it was just knowing the truth 371 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: of her situation. 372 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: Maybe this was also not the first time even that 373 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: year that a car bomb had been used as a 374 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: tool of assassination. This was the sixth time. There would 375 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: have been five more car bombing attacks, some with survivors 376 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: from one in January, September, October. Yeah, it was a messy, 377 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: messy business. What we're saying is he would have also 378 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: already have heard about something like a car bomb being 379 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: used this way. 380 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: So he's standing there, this explosion occurs, He's only eighty 381 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: meters away. He starts running down the road. He's barefoot. 382 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: He's frantically calling his mother's cell phone. He heard a 383 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: car horn blazing, he smelled burning fuel, and then he 384 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: saw it. It was his mom's car. It was on fire, 385 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 2: and it was just sitting there on fire in a 386 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 2: field of wildflowers, And he apparently saw pieces of flesh 387 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: laying on the ground, and he certainly feared the worst, 388 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: and he was right. And then Matthew her Son recounted 389 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: this horrific scene in a social media post. In there, 390 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: you know, within that post he's he's speaking to the 391 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: authorities in a negative manner, saying that they allowed for 392 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: this culture of impunity to fester and inside Malta, saying 393 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: that this guy Joseph Muscat, these other people that we've mentioned, 394 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: Keith Shembrie, Chris Cardona, Conrad Mizzi, even the Attorney General 395 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: Peter Gretch, basically this huge list of police commissioners. He 396 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: was saying all of these people took no action, and 397 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: he was saying that they were complicit in her death. 398 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: It's true that being a journalist is globally speaking, a 399 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: dangerous business. Dozens of journalists are murdered every year around 400 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: the world, and usually we're seeing that happen in places 401 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: that are war zones or spheres of conflict, or countries 402 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: with a weak rule of law or weak protections for 403 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: freedom of speech. This was a massive shock to a 404 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: lot of people in the West because the European Union 405 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: considers itself a haven for journalism in many ways, so 406 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: this felt blatant, public and grizzly it was not just 407 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: meant to remove a person, much like polonium poisoning. It 408 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: was meant to send a message. And I'm making the 409 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: polonium reference not to say that this was a Russian, 410 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: a Russian manufactured hit, but just to say, you know, 411 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: there was visibility was meant to be part of it. 412 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: It was condemned in editorials from some of the most 413 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: widely followed, well respected news sources around the world. You know, 414 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: all the hits, The New York Times, CNN, Financial Times, 415 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: The Guardian, the Economists, I believe. After her death, an 416 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: international consortium of journalists launched the Daphning Project, which was 417 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: coordinated by Forbidden Stories. Forbidden Stories as a Paris based 418 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: organization dedicated to continuing the work of killed or imprisoned journalists. 419 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: Even Julian Assange weighed in. 420 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he announced that he was going to pay twenty 421 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: thousand euro a reward essentially for any information leading to 422 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: the conviction of Karuna Galiza's killers. That's a huge deal 423 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: that Julia Saunders would step up and do that. Galiza's 424 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: family then filed a legal claim against the police force 425 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 2: in Malta and they allege that the investigation or whatever 426 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 2: investigation is occurring has not been independent or impartial because 427 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 2: of connections between a senior police investigator and a government minister. 428 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: Because again all those people she implicated and had things 429 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: to say about, they have the potential to have influence 430 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: within the law enforcement sphere, and both were subjects of 431 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: Karuna Gliza's block exactly. 432 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: And where does this leave us now? So the facts 433 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: so far are that the Panama papers leak, they confirm 434 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: what a long time investigative journalist slash activist has said 435 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: in the country of Malta, and after numerous attempts on 436 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: her life, she dies. One of the murder attempts works. 437 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: So what happens next, we'll tell you after a word 438 00:27:51,480 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. So fast forward. Ten people were arrested 439 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: in raids at dawn on December fourth, twenty seventeen, in 440 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: relation to this murder investigation, which was at the time 441 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: quite controversial because the journalists around the world and journalists 442 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: support associations the survivors of Galiza's death, they all are 443 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: convinced that there is a cover up a foot and 444 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: you can't really blame them. Eventually, three people were charged 445 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: for the murder for committing the acts of rigging a 446 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: car bomb and detonating it, and his brothers named George 447 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: and Alfred di Giorgio and Vincent muscatt Despite all these 448 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: protests in Malta and abroad, it appeared that the government 449 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: of the country was indeed factually was actually dragging its 450 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: feet in the investigation. The three suspects claimed their arrest 451 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and searches violated their fundamental rights, which in practice worked 452 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: as a way of delay in the trial. And now 453 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: it leads us to the Panama Papers in twenty nineteen, 454 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: because years after the leak, you have to wonder how 455 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: much this has actually changed the situation on the ground. 456 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: It's something you and I talked about in the first 457 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: episode of the Papers. I mean, these things, these things 458 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: blow up, right, and this information is revealed, but those 459 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: shell companies, except for a few egregious ones, are still around. 460 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. It definitely reminds me of the financial crash of 461 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, where we 462 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 2: as a human people saw the cracks in the system 463 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: and the blatant holes in the system, and the way 464 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: the machine itself was rigged, and yet nothing really changed. 465 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: I think there was one arrest I could tell I 466 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: know of and maybe they're a handful of arrests in 467 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: that situation. And it's the same with the Panama Papers. 468 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: There was a man named Richard Gaffney was He lived 469 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: in Massachusetts. He was an accountant. He was apprehended in 470 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, in December. That was the first the first 471 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: arrest occurred for the Panama Papers in the US. Yeah, 472 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: in December of twenty eighteen. I mean there have been 473 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: there again, there's been a handful of people who have 474 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: gotten in various levels of trouble throughout the world because 475 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: of the Panama Papers. Some politicians have stepped down at 476 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: least in part due to the Panama Papers coming out, 477 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: or at least had to apologize. I remember when David 478 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: Cameron had this whole story. It was the same thing 479 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: with you know, this is my family's money and it's 480 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: just in a trust and we're just moving it around. 481 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: But Vegas, baby, Yeah, there we go. That's what that 482 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: was what Cameron said. Yes, it's mostly his black track money. 483 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, But the United States is different from in Malta, 484 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: it's different from New Zealand, it's different from in Panama 485 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: where it's actually occurring, and in Malta. There is a 486 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: clear issue. 487 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: Yes, we'll put it simply. The people who are in 488 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: charge of investigating this murder are the people that Galizio 489 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: was investigating when she was alive, or they're closely affiliated 490 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: with the people that she accused of cover ups crime 491 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: and even things ranging into support of violent crime. 492 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: It's like a waterfall of paychecks. Basically, who signs your 493 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: paycheck well and goes all the way up. Oh yep, 494 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: it's that. 495 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: Guy, turtles all the way down. Yeah, and their terror 496 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: all the way down perhaps, And you can't blame people 497 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: for saying there's something screwy with this investigation. One. I 498 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: think the Prime Minister continued to pursue a libel case 499 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: against against Galicia after she was dead and said he 500 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: would drop it if everyone agreed that he. 501 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: That he's cool and he didn't do anything right. 502 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: And I'm laughing with a bitter note here, because you see, 503 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: at this point it's widely agreed that these three men 504 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: who are currently in custody for this crime, it's widely 505 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: agreed that they were not the brains behind the operation. 506 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: They are all are all slightly older, low level criminals, 507 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: most mostly known for their activity in the diesel smuggling business, 508 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: which is a big business in Malta. Yeah, so who 509 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: is at the top, you know, someone who would be 510 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: we were looking then in that case, we're looking for 511 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: someone who fits a couple of descriptions or couple of profiles. 512 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: We're looking for someone who has enough money or enough 513 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, financial clout such that they would be a 514 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: subject of something in the Panama papers. Yes, they have 515 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: to be shell company rich, right. 516 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: Probably not an elected official. It might be a one 517 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: step removed from elected official. 518 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, it might be somebody who bought a passport 519 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: who knows and travels internationally, but they're somehow involved in 520 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: Maltese business, because otherwise Dealisia wouldn't have run up against them, 521 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: you know what. Right, So it's someone who is probably 522 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: on an international sphere, maybe in politics, but definitely closely 523 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: related to someone in politics. Let's say they at the 524 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: very least have an interest in Maltese governance, right or 525 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: some regulations, and they're not the type of person to 526 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: go out and rig a carbon themselves. They probably are 527 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: quite possibly not to be unfair to this horrific excuse 528 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: for a person, but they probably don't know how to 529 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: break a car bomb. 530 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: I would agree with that. 531 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: So the investigation and the cover up continues. We mentioned 532 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: earlier these three criminals had said their rights were violated. 533 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: As of February twenty nineteen, when we're recording this, it 534 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: seems that the trial may finally begin. That's right, begin, yeah, and. 535 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: It's so it's good right. That was twenty seventeen when 536 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: they argued that their rights are being violated. Now two 537 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: years later later, the investigation is going on. The police 538 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: are actually trying to find more suspects connected with the murder, 539 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: so trying to go up that chain to see who 540 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 2: actually ordered it. And this includes people who are suspected 541 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: to be linked with the commissioning that's, like we said, 542 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: but not the putting together the bomb, but the commissioning 543 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: of the bomb. And foreign investigators have questioned the reluctance 544 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 2: of the Maltese police to kind of keep this trial 545 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: going and make it happen, and they've also questioned the 546 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: reluctance of them to proceed against more suspects because that's 547 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: where it could get really tricky, right for the police themselves. 548 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: That's where you get a little True Detective Season one 549 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: right following up the chain, up the food chain of crime. Yeah, 550 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: it's believed that there may be between three and five 551 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: other people who have who are known to the police 552 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: or known to law enforcement, but have not been publicly revealed. 553 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: The argument being that they're not slowing up the investigation 554 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: on purpose, they just need to gather more evidence at 555 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: this point. Again's controversial thing. A lot of people don't 556 00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: believe the story. A lot of European news outlets still 557 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: follow the investigation and the trial. There's an Italian daily 558 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: paper called La Republica and it's been following a it's 559 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: been barking up a specific theory tree that may be 560 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: of interest to people who are familiar with this case 561 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: or we're just learning about it. The suspects in the murder, 562 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: the diesel fuel smugglers. It seems a very strange and 563 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: specific type of crime. They apparently, according to this paper, 564 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: have a connection with someone called Christian Cardona, Malta's current 565 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: Minister of Economics economy minister. In the weeks leading up 566 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: to Galizia's assassination, this guy, Christian Cardona, was spotted in 567 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: a remote bar on Malta twice with one of the 568 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 1: guys who is later charged with detonating the car bomb. 569 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: Cardona responded calling this report baseless, conjecture and outright fabrication. Officially, 570 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: Kurt Ferugia, spokesperson for the Maltese government, stated, the government 571 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: is confident that anyone else responsible will be found and 572 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: brought to justice. We continue to support all efforts by 573 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: the police and investigating magistrate to find the truth. Malta 574 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: is committed to upholding human rights, freedom of speech, the 575 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: protection of journalist and the rule of law. Who who 576 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: doesn't agree? 577 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 2: It sounds like great pr But you know, Galizia's family 578 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 2: does not agree with this, I think fairly obviously. And 579 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 2: we know this because Matthew her Son was quoted in 580 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 2: The Atlantic who. By the way, Matthew is a Pulitzer 581 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: Prize winning journalist. Pretty awesome. Apple did not fall far 582 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 2: from the tree there, but he, Matthew and his two 583 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 2: brothers have been lobbying European lawmakers and like all these 584 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 2: international organizations for months and months and months, trying to 585 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: call attention to problems within the investigation itself. So let's 586 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 2: look at that quote. Matthew said, my mother was assassinated 587 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 2: for reporting on corruption in Malta and He also sent 588 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: out a tweet on the anniversary of her death. He said, 589 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 2: the people who did it are still free. They sit 590 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: in parliament and on private jets. It's this simple. 591 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it's heavy hitting. The investigation continues, as does 592 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: on some level, the cover up. 593 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 594 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: Some people are a little more optimistic than others and 595 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: think that ultimately the brains behind the operation will be 596 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: named or brought to justice. But for many other people, unfortunately, 597 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: this is just another day in Malta. I know, not 598 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: to sound Chinatown about. 599 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: It, well in it it's also another day in the 600 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 2: upper echelons of power and influence. 601 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: It's true. That is absolutely true. At this point, that's 602 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: where the story ends. For now, it continues, and hopefully 603 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: one day we can come back with an update showing 604 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: that justice was served. But for now we want to 605 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: hear from you. Why do you think these financial crimes 606 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: and these sorts of assassinations coming go so quickly in 607 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: the news. Why do you think there's not more following 608 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: up on the Panama papers here in the United States? 609 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? Please, we want to know those things. Do you 610 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: think it had something to do with the connection or 611 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 2: maybe a crossroad somewhere between politics and organized crime. We'd 612 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 2: like to hear from you if you know anything. Be 613 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 2: very careful about writing to us, but we would love 614 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 2: to hear it. You know. If not, send it to 615 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 2: a journalist somewhere within your country, just do it carefully. 616 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 2: If you want to find us on social media and 617 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: connect with us that way, we are at Conspiracy Stuff 618 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 2: in most places, at Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Ben 619 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 2: you have a personal Instagram. 620 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: That's true. It is at Ben Bolan in a burst 621 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: of unbridled creativity. 622 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: At Ben Bolan. Hs. No, it's at Ben Bolan. Oh, 623 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 2: that's awesome. I am not I have one, but you 624 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: will never find. 625 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: It right right, it's enormously difficult to locate. 626 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 2: You don't want to see it. It's just pictures of 627 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 2: my son and I. And if you don't want to 628 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 2: connect with us that way, you can find out our 629 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 2: Facebook group. 630 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: Ah. Yes, here's where it gets crazy, where you can 631 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: hang out with our favorite part of the show, your 632 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: fellow listeners. It's also a great spot to pitch us 633 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: some ideas for future topics, or to get some feedback 634 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: from other people about a weird thing you saw in 635 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: the news. Because it's cool to crowdsource. That's that kind 636 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: of fact checking, you know what I mean. And we 637 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: have the greatest mods on the planet, and we have 638 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: some top notch mods. That's right. Their MOTTERI is beyond compare. 639 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: And let's say you're someone who says, yeah, got something 640 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: you need to know. I want to tell you, but 641 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm more of an audio person. Well, we have good 642 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,720 Speaker 1: news for you. You can call us directly. 643 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 2: We are one eight three three std WYTK. That's right, 644 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: it's not that creepy. It's just an acronym for stuff 645 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: they don't want you to know, and it becomes numbers 646 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 2: when you type it in your phone you'll see okay, 647 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: so leave us a message there. We will listen to 648 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 2: it and it might get on the show if you 649 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: make it weird enough. And that's the end of this 650 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 2: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about 651 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 2: this episode, you can get into contact with us in 652 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 2: a number of different ways. One of the best is 653 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 2: to give us a call. Our number is one eight 654 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 2: three three st d WYTK. If you don't want to 655 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 2: do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email. 656 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 657 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You To Know is a production 658 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 659 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.