1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Body Bus. But Joseph's gotten more. You know, over the 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: last few years, it seems as though that Kevin Costner 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: has popped onto both my newsfeed and my social media 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: feed more than I'd care to remember. It's not that 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: I necessarily have anything against him. It's just like super saturation, dude, 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: He's everywhere. And don't get me wrong, I am a 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Kevin Costner fan. Probably out of all of his movies, 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: my favorite one is A Field of Dreams. It always 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: gets me, you know, that last scene. I think that 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: those of us that may have longed to have had 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: a father when we were growing up, and he meets 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: up with his dad at the end, and he merely 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: looks at him and says, hey, Deck, can we have 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: a catch? And inevitably I cry. I cry every time 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: I see that scene. But for us today on Bodybags, 16 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: there are tears being shed right now in Iowa, and 17 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: they're not fiction. They're real. They're real because found in 18 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: a field or the remains of its seventeen year old 19 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: girl who has been brutally murdered. To make it all 20 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: the more horrific, her mother had gone out looking for 21 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: because she hadn't come home that girl's name is Michelle 22 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: Luna Jackson, and today we're going to talk about her homicide. 23 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott and Morgan and this is body backs, Dave. 24 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: You know, as far as I can see around this 25 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: area that I live in, up in the northern part 26 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: of Calhoun County, Alabama, not Calhoun County, Iowa, where our 27 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: case today takes place, not too dissimilar. Of course, the 28 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: land rolls a bit more than it does in Iowa. 29 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: But man, there are cornfields and cotton fields and alfalfa 30 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: and all kinds of other things that grow. It's a 31 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: farming community and that's really all there is up here. 32 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: We have university. But you start to get away from 33 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: the town that I live in in Jacksonville, Alabama, and 34 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: you come after you come across farm after farm after farm, 35 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: and how many of these little locations have you and 36 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: I both driven through over the years. It'll be like 37 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: a little crossroads and it'll be called a town. It 38 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: might have one one stop light, or maybe a flashing 39 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: yellow light if you're lucky. But you can look on 40 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: a map and it's identified there. This location where this 41 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: took place is. I don't know. It looks to be 42 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: roughly one hundred and twenty miles northwest of Des Moines, 43 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: and you know, you get out there, and people have 44 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: described that area as just being like a sea of 45 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: corn as far as I can see, and I don't 46 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: know if that's the case here, but it kind of 47 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: sounds like a. 48 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: Found fewer than four hundred people. And when we first 49 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: started looking at this story in particular, something caught my attention, Joe, 50 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: because oftentimes when we have a story that begins with 51 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: somebody missing, immediately people do things that make no sense 52 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: to me. But in this one, it is exactly what 53 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: I would do. When seventeen year old Luna doesn't come 54 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: home as expected, it's eleven o'clock on Sunday night, mother 55 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: picks up the phone and calls police. Now, in a 56 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: town that size, she probably knew somebody to call directly, 57 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: you know, not going through nine to point one, right, 58 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: and that's what So, Hey, Luna's not home. I don't 59 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: know where she is. She took off on her scooter. 60 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: She wasn't running away. We were expecting her right back 61 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: and please help. And so she makes the call, my 62 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: daughter's missing. And then she grabs her other daughter and 63 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: they go out looking. Now, they didn't hop in their 64 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: car to go looking. They started walking because Luna left 65 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: with her scooter, so they know, generally speaking, she's going 66 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: to be in an area where she can be found 67 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: by looking for her, right And that's exactly what happened, Well, 68 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: not exactly, I take that back, but they did. As 69 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: they were walking looking for Luna, they see a man 70 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: riding Luna's scooter. Taking a closer look, they realize the 71 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: man is covered in what appears to be blunt. I 72 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: don't know exactly what she felt in that moment, but 73 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: my heart broke. The mom seeing her daughter's scooter and 74 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: a man she doesn't know writing it looking like he's 75 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: covered in blood, calls police. They get involved, and immediately 76 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: the guy lawyers up before they can get any information. Joe, 77 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: he says, lawyer. We know his name, Nathaniel Beaver's McGivney. 78 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: He's twenty one. But Nathaniel Beaver's McGivney lawyered up right away. 79 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: We don't know of any relationship between the suspect and 80 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: the victim here. We don't know anything yet. It's a 81 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: new case, but that's where it sits right now. As 82 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: the mom on that Sunday evening finds her daughter scooter 83 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: the man in blood and does not find her daughter. 84 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: Introject something here I had you you've spurred some some 85 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: memories from me here, Dave, I think back. Not every 86 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: case that you work is a body that is simply found. 87 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: You know, some stranger in the public happens to walk 88 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: along and they come across a body, and maybe the 89 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: body has been there for a while. The individual is not, 90 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, not part of of the life's narrative of 91 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: the deceased. But you know, Dave, those cases where families 92 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: have been touched by death and certainly the horror, and 93 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: it can be even a perceived horror. You know, just 94 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: because Luna's mother saw the scooter that looked like her 95 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: daughters and just because she saw a guy ride in 96 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: along scooter that appears to have been covered in blood, 97 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean the two things are are related. However, 98 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: when you begin to look mathematically at the odds, and 99 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about how isolated this place is, how small 100 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: of a location it is, what are the odds that, 101 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: first off, your daughter would be missing, and that you've 102 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: got this guy who just I got to tell you 103 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: just the images that I've seen of him, he looks 104 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: big and powerful. He you know, he looks like what 105 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: you would think a farm boy looks like, you know, 106 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: and he's got what appears to be blood on him. 107 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: And it's in the evening. That's another thing. So if 108 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: it's in the evening, you're under dim light, she sees 109 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: what she thinks is blood. I don't know how close 110 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: he passed to her, but you begin to think about 111 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: this and you think, oh my word, it must have 112 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: been a copious amount of blood to be able to 113 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: make that recognition. Potentially in twilight, Tom, there's a lot 114 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: going on here, and Dave, I got to say one 115 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: more thing here. You know, this case is absolutely horrific. 116 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard anything about it. I didn't hear anything 117 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: about until my wife mentioned it to me because she 118 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: saw seventeen year old and that was the first thing 119 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: for her. And any of you folks that have met 120 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: Kimmy my wife, you know how she is. I mean, 121 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, she's like a bulldog with things many times, 122 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: and you've seen her crime con and these sorts of things, 123 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: and this really struck a note with her that this 124 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: is something that we needed to discuss, and it hasn't 125 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: been picked up, you know, broadly, I don't think in 126 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: the national discourse of true crime. But a horrific case. 127 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: And what makes it really striking for those of us 128 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: that live in small communities is that it actually happened 129 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: in a very small community where you wouldn't think that 130 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: something this horrific would go down, Dave. 131 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: No, and that's one of the safety nets we have 132 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: in a small community. If you've lived in other areas, 133 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: you know what it's like to be, you know, in 134 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: a city versus a small town environment, and they both 135 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: have their pros and cons. In this particular case, as 136 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: we mentioned, I was struck by the fact that Mom 137 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: did exactly what I would do. Yeah, I would take 138 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: off looking just I know about where she's going to be, 139 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: so boom, I'm going. And I want to point out 140 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: that while she did see the suspect here with her 141 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: daughter's scooter and other items of Luna's not just the scooter, 142 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: but other items as. 143 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: Well, which they have not identified yet. Just that statement 144 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: alone is chilling, Dave. 145 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: But there's no Luna and they can't find her, and 146 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: he's not telling so we don't know what time exactly, 147 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: Mom saw Nathaniel Beaver's McGivney. We don't know what time 148 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: that was. We just know that it was after eleven 149 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: pm and before nine am the next morning, and we 150 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: know that police took him into custody and talked to him, 151 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: which he lawyered up. And so it wasn't until the 152 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: next morning. Remember eleven PM on Sunday night, my daughter's 153 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: not home, she's missing. Help me find her. And then 154 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: the next morning, after sunrise, they being officials looking for Luna, 155 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: find her. She's not out in the open. She had 156 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: actually been hidden, Joe, put away in an area where 157 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: you didn't see her immediately. 158 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that goes to you know, when you think about 159 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. They're talking about things. I think 160 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: that one of the charges has to do with concealment 161 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: of human remains. Well, they talk about what was it, Dave. 162 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: One of the charges ABUSEI of. 163 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: Cor abusive a corpse, and I wondered what that meant. Joe. 164 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and that can come in a 165 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: variety of different degrees. You know, you can, you can 166 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: it's almost like almost like passive versus active. Okay, just 167 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: think about it. If someone were to actively abuse a corpse. 168 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: There's any number of ways that an individual can engage 169 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: in that kind of behavior, you know, And I think 170 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: you know, first one of the first things we think 171 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: about is maybe dismemberment, okay, but then you can kind 172 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: of passively do it. And I don't know if you've 173 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: given any thought to this, but that law in most 174 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: places is written with families in mind. Okay. So, like, 175 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: let me just pose this to you. If if you 176 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: have a loved one that dies, any reasonable person would 177 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: have an expectation that they would get those remains back 178 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: and that they could view the remains, and that they're 179 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: family and friends, the extended family and friends could view 180 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: the remains, that you could have awake for them. Perhaps, 181 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: so if you kind of passively do this, this means 182 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: that you obscure the body in some way. Well, what's 183 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: going on, Well, you are allowing, through your actions, the 184 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: body to become decomposed, and that in and of it that, 185 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: in and of itself, in a roundabout way, you're facilitating, well, 186 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: first off, almost a disfigurement of the body. And that's cruel. 187 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: It's it's very cruel. And so I think that when 188 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: these legislators pass these laws like that. That's part of it. 189 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: It's not merely about somebody that's a necrofile or somebody 190 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: that's into dismemberment or burning a body. It can be 191 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: that kind of passive action, you know, where you have 192 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: where when you know the family. Unfortunately had to deal 193 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: with families over the years where they will ask me, 194 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: and I'm no funeral director, but they will ask me, 195 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: do you think you can have an open casket? You know, 196 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: and I'll phrase it like, you know, look, I'm not 197 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: a funeral director, but there's a high probability you would 198 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: not want to subject yourself or your family or your 199 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: friends to this because the body is so far gone. 200 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: So we. 201 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: Don't know if that is all that this entails relative 202 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: to what was done with her body in the post 203 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: mortem state. Was it Disgui's intent to obscure her? And 204 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: so therefore they thought about what's going to happen to 205 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: the body afterwards, that no one is actually taking care 206 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: of the dead, and it's going to lead to the 207 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: family being absent that opportunity in her death. So there's 208 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: a different way, you know, to kind of to kind 209 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: of look at that and think about that. It doesn't 210 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: necessarily mean something more horrific that you could. You know, 211 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: I think many of us could go there in our 212 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: minds simply based on stuff we covered on our podcast, Dave, 213 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: they felt like that they had grounds to charge him 214 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: with this, Dave. 215 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: Never occurred to me. I just never thought of it 216 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: like that. I really thought abuse of a corpse would 217 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: be a dramatic, you know, active And yet that actually 218 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: makes sense because the way we've mentioned this is a 219 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: fresh news story and a lot of information has not 220 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: been released or is not available yet because we're not 221 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: in that not far enough down line to get the 222 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: actual police reports and search. They'll do search warms and 223 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: things like that as part of the investigation, but we 224 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: don't have any of that right now. We just know 225 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: that he specifically and on purpose put her body in 226 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: a place where it was not easily found. 227 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, right now at JSU, I'm teaching, 228 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: actually this semester, I'm actually teaching a class called clandestine burials. 229 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: And there's any number of ways that you can clandestinely 230 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: bury or obscure a body. And it's not just your 231 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: you're burying a body necessarily, but you are obscuring the 232 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: body you're maybe placing a body in a body of water. 233 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: I know that's rather redundant to say that, but that's 234 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: There's any number of ways that this can take place. 235 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: But here's the big thing. Was it his intent to 236 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: obscure her body so that he could put as much 237 00:15:39,440 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: distance between himself and the remains of a luna Dave. 238 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things, particularly when you're talking 239 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: about a homicide, if someone were to say, well, which 240 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: would you rather work? Would you rather work a homicide 241 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: inside of a structure or out in the woods slash 242 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: open field. I'm with the structure all day long. I'm 243 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: not saying that they're not complicated, because some of the 244 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: most complex cases I've ever been involved in have a 245 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: card in a structure. But you have that, you have 246 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: that containment. You know what I'm saying. You got the 247 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: four walls. That sounds like an old country song, doesn't it. 248 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: I think it actually was. You've got the four walls 249 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: that are surrounding you and things are protected. Right. You've 250 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: got a roof over your head. Now, I've been in 251 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: some structures that no longer had roofs, abandoned buildings and 252 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But you understand what I'm saying. 253 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: There's an area of containment that's kind of occurring that 254 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: the body is there. Start to get out into rural 255 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: areas where you've got a wooded area or an open field, 256 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: and it just absolutely becomes a nightmare to process the scene. 257 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: I go back to. This is from the actual documents. Okay, 258 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: the location of court documents. The location where the body 259 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 2: was discovered suggests that Beaver's McGivney intentionally hid the body 260 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: to conceal a crime, and then he failed to disclose 261 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: where she was after they were talking to him. Think 262 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: about it. He's been seen by her mother, you know, 263 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: with the girl scooter with what appears to be blood 264 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: all over his body, and he's not telling anybody where 265 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: the body is. 266 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the big word there is intent. Anytime you get 267 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: the eye word in there, that means that the police 268 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: have knowledge. They have knowledge because you know, intent is 269 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: very difficult to prove, you know, It's one of those 270 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: things that you know because you can say you know 271 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: that you intended to do something that somebody else intended 272 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: to do something. But if you're going to go into 273 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: court with this element of intent, then that's kind of 274 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: a a higher bar, you know, to kind of go across. 275 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: So obviously they have specific information related to this. But 276 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: I got to touch on something something here, Dave. I 277 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: want to go back just for a second. You talked 278 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: about multiple scenes, and there can be multiple scenes, and 279 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: this is kind of how we break them down in investigation. 280 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: So you will have a primary scene if you have 281 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: a body, a decedent, obviously your primary scene is going 282 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: to be where the body is found. And if you 283 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: use the idea of a wagon wheel with the hub, 284 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: the body is the hub. Everything else kind of radiates 285 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: out from there. And then you have secondary scenes, which 286 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: might be say, for instance, a conveyance like a car, 287 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: or maybe the initial uh, the initial location of where 288 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: they were killed. That would be secondary. And then you 289 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: have we're referred to as tertiary. I'll give you an 290 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: example of tertiary. You know, if you go back to 291 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: the oj Simpson narrative that people put out, you know, 292 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: like after the homicides occurred out there, one of the 293 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: things that people had talked about was that he was 294 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: in a car headed to the airport. Remember I think 295 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: famously he was in Chicago when the alarm went up 296 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: about this, and some people have stated that things were 297 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: thrown out of the window of the limos he's going 298 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: down the road that if you came across those items, 299 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: that would be like a tertiary scene. Okay, so that's 300 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: kind of how it breaks down. But here's the interesting 301 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: thing about Luna's case for me, is that he's on 302 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: her scooter. So if this guy has means, if this 303 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: guy has means, Dave, why would a twenty one year 304 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: old man, he looks like he's been, you know, living 305 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: off of off of steaks and corn his entire life, 306 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: Big fella, Why is a twenty one year old man 307 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: riding up and down the road on a scooter allegedly 308 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: covered with what appears to be blood. You know why? 309 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: Because that's almost like a clown show to me. If 310 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: you see it's some big guy riding down the road 311 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: on a scooter, that's kind of odd to me. It's 312 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: going to make me take notice. So and out in 313 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: the middle of what would be a very isolated area. Again, 314 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: you add that element to it, it's kind of a strange. 315 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: If you can, just for a moment envision this big 316 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: guy tooling down the road on a scooter. You know 317 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: where everybody else is driving what my son likes to 318 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: called broad dozers, you know, which are the jacked up 319 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, big old trucks and that sort of thing 320 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: going down the road. This would be an odd ball 321 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: and no wonder it called mama's attention. I mean, just 322 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: think about it. That's what she's witnessing this in real time. 323 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: She sees what she believes is her daughter's scooter. There's 324 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: a big fellow on it and he's covered with blood. 325 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: So how did Luna wind up in this field? She 326 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: killed somewhere else, or let's just say someone may have 327 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: been light and wait for her, knowing that she rides 328 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: her scooter along a roadway. You know, periodically, she's known 329 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: to do this. If somebody's watching, it's a crime of opportunity. 330 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: This doesn't sound like something necessarily Dave that's very well 331 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: planned out. The other thing to this, the other part 332 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: to this that is very disturbing. I think they have 333 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: referred to these items of Luna's that this fellow was 334 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: supposedly in possession of. So you know, when I hear 335 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: items that belong to the dead, the first thing in 336 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: my mind, my mind goes to her trophies. Now, is 337 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: that what's going on here or is there an attempt? 338 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: Is there an attempt to try at some kind of 339 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: rudimentary level to obscure not only her body, but also 340 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: who Luna was. So, Dave, I've got to begin to 341 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: try to understand in order to fully assess this case 342 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, just so that I understand where 343 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: we are here. The accused immediately lawyered up. He's not 344 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: like some font of information that's saying, oh, yeah, yeah, 345 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: I saw her. That's the reason I was on scooter 346 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: and yeah, she disappeared out into the cornfield like field 347 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: of dreams. You know. That's not what's going on here, 348 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: is it. No? 349 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: And the criminal complaint alleges that the location where the 350 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: girl's body was discovered quote suggest that Beaver's McGivney intentionally 351 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: hid the body to conceal a crime, and that he 352 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: failed to disclose the location with intent to conceal a crime. 353 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 2: That's the different charges that come into play. But when 354 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: they find the body. You mentioned a minute ago about 355 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 2: the different types of the scenes primary scene, secondary scene, 356 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: tertiary scene. When you're doing that, do you start at 357 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 2: the primary scene and go out in the investigation. 358 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you can't say that affirmatively like that that's 359 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: what is going to happen, because many times you'll find 360 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: the secondary or even the tertiary scene before you ever 361 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: find the primary scene with the body, and it leads 362 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: you to it then, and it leads you to it. Yeah, 363 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: And so if you're talking about someone that has been killed, 364 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: and I'll go ahead and make this big reveal here 365 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: and we can come back to it. But we do 366 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: know from the statements that have been made is that 367 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: Luna's throat has been cut. And so when we begin 368 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: to think about throats being cut, Dave, you're going to 369 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: have far more evidence most of the time than you 370 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: will even with gunshot wounds because the cutting of the throat, 371 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: and depend upon how deep and how extensive it is, 372 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: you're going to have a tremendous amount of bleeding that 373 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: will take place. So you could, let's just say that 374 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: she was attacked on the roadway and her throat was 375 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: cut there, where you could have a blood trail leading 376 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: literally from the shoulder of the road back into the field, 377 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: assuming that it took place there. And since he's not 378 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: driving a car, the accused is not driving a car, 379 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: I have to assume that the home side more than 380 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: likely took place approximating that field, unless there's some kind 381 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: of abandoned vehicle somewhere that they haven't led onto at 382 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: this point in time. And if that's the case, a 383 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: vehicle would be super saturated with blood. So you're going 384 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: to have from an evidentiary standpoint, how do you track 385 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: the body. Well, with a body that has been bled 386 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: like this, with this insult to the throat or the neck, 387 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: you could potentially have a trail, you could have pools 388 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: of blood. And then she's in a field. Well, we 389 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: have some clues here because they're talking about that there 390 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: has been an attempt to obscure the body. Well, if 391 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: you're obscuring the body, that means most of the time 392 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: there's kind of different levels to this. Have you shun 393 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: up with a shovel in hand and dug a hole 394 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: in the ground, maybe you've created a pressed area, it's 395 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: not a six foot deep grave, it's a shallow grave. 396 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: Or is it a surface disposal where you leave the 397 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: body on the surface of the ground. And then let's 398 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: and we don't know this for a fact. We know 399 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: she's in a field, we know they grow a lot 400 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: of corn, there was the corn harvest taking place. Yet, well, 401 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: it's time of year at the time of this recording, 402 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: we're in early October. This would have occurred at the 403 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: end of September. I would probably say that if it 404 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: hasn't that, if it hasn't taken place, it has at 405 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: least started to take place at this point. So where 406 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: are you going to have Well, you'll have discarded cornstalks 407 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: perhaps and other debris. Well, was there body placed out 408 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: there and then the cornstalks taken or whatever items were 409 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: out there and placed on top of the Was there 410 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: were there down limbs for instance. And listen, there's one 411 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: thing that I would doesn't necessarily have a lot of, 412 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: and that's trees. And most of the time, if you 413 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: have trees, they are going to be in towns, you know, 414 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: that have been planted by somebody. You're not going to 415 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: have like old growth forest around there. Because we're talking about, 416 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the planes here. So what is 417 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: the body being obscured with, How is the being obscured 418 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: and how how would the perpetrator know about this specific 419 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: location Dave? And how what was it that they assessed 420 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: this location to be where they knew that there would 421 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: be an opportunity to obscure a body, why not move 422 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: it somewhere else? Why not take it to a local 423 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: creek bed, or to a local quarry, or whatever the 424 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: case might be. No, the body was placed in a 425 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: field and left there. And this, these cases like this 426 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: become a nightmare to try to process. And here's why. 427 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: If we if we are to follow this line of 428 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: logic where mama has seen the accused on her scooter 429 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: and he's got blood on him, then let's just think about, well, 430 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: if we're trying to track him to determine which way, 431 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: which which location? Did he leave after he you know, 432 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: how did he depart the field? Did he just leave 433 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: the scooter on the side of the road after he 434 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: attacked her and then went back and fetched the scooter? 435 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 1: Did he was a scooter drug back there with her? 436 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: Did she take it back there with her? We don't 437 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: really know. But if he left and she's deceased and 438 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: her throat has been cut, did he leave a blue 439 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: blood trail leaving out? Also, he's a big guy. Are 440 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: there foot impressions in this soft dirt? We're talking about 441 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: a field, Dave? So is there an indication that he 442 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: walked out of the field and then got back onto 443 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 1: this roadway, which you know you said, mom, Mom and 444 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: sister are on foot looking for her. This cannot be 445 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: too far away from her domicile, you know, where they live. 446 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: It's got to be close. In approximation, I was looking 447 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: at some of the aerial photography of this place, and 448 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: you've got this. You've literally got this little town that 449 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: by my estimation has got one two, three, four, five 450 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: six dave it's got six north south streets total for 451 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: this little town. And if you break it down a 452 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: grid and running east and west there are through streets 453 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: you've only got like five. And you know what else 454 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: in that little sea, that little oasis of the little neighborhoods, 455 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: the town and everything else, it is completely surrounded by farms. 456 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,239 Speaker 1: You know, it's striking when you look at this on 457 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, on a map, a particularly satellite view, you 458 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: don't have this. This town would look like an oasis. 459 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: If you're kind of driving across this area, it would 460 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: just like pop up and then every end then it's 461 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: just engulfed in farms as far as you can see. 462 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: So any any wherever she was living, wherever the mom lived. 463 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: It's within easy walking distance of any field around there. 464 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: That's going to key with this case. 465 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: When the body is left in the field and they say, 466 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: you know it was hidden. The body is hidden with 467 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: the alleged perpetrator covered in blood, and we know that 468 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: she had her throat slit. The blood normally pools on 469 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: the surface, and when we're in a scene and it's 470 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: in a house, in the carpet or whatever, we got 471 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: dirt in a field as dirt you mentioned corn and 472 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: other things. But the will the blood then seep into 473 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: the ground and become part Does it make it harder 474 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: to determine what happened when the body is placed in 475 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: a field like this. 476 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. It all depends well with the unaided eye. 477 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: What I say is the unaided eye. That means that 478 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: I'm not using any kind of special lighting photography. Heck, 479 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: I'm not even using a magnifying lens at this point 480 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: in TOM I'm just eyeballing it. You can see a 481 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: contrast in soil between the blood, the blood and the 482 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: soil itself. You can get an appreciation of it. One 483 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: of the things that's very important to do. As you 484 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: can imagine from a forensic standpoint is you need to 485 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: take soil samples. And the beauty of a soil sample 486 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: is that, unlike perhaps maybe some other surface, like a 487 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: hard concrete surface, you can begin to talk about saturation. 488 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: How deep did this go? You know, how deep? Because 489 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, just imagine now that you might not give 490 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: them the exact volume of it, but just imagine what 491 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: kind of tool this is for prosecuting an attorney to 492 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: say she bled so much that our investigators at the 493 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: scene dug down one two, three four inches they were 494 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: still finding blood at that level. That took samples of 495 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: the soil out there, core samples where you just kind of, 496 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, almost like you're generating of a golf hole 497 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: on a golf green, where you take out that plug 498 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: like that and you can demonstrate how deep this thing went. 499 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: And that's that's going to be telling. And I think, 500 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: you know, for me, what would be the motivation behind 501 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: this because that brings in another level of physical evidence 502 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: to be left behind. And I think the most obvious 503 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: thing here is this a sexual assault on bat Did 504 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: he attack her, drag her out in the field and 505 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: sexually assault her? And I can promise you this when 506 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 1: Luna's body was examined by the friends of pathologists. They 507 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: will have done a rape kit. And I don't even 508 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: care if if she's in a state, if her clothing 509 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: is completely intact, because you have perpetrators that will redress bodies, 510 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: even after a sexual event has taken place. They will 511 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: redress bodies. So you cannot work on that assumption in 512 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: the morgue that you know, well, nothing happened, the clothing 513 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: wasn't disrupted. That's one of the worst decisions you could 514 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: ever made because once that evidence is gone, it's gone. 515 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: So they will have done a rape kit. You know, 516 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: in this particular case, when we think about the accused here, Dave, 517 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about you know, kind of footprints 518 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: and you know, and bloody trails and primary scene, secondary 519 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: and tertiary. But here's one other tertiary element here, Dave. 520 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: Where was he domiciled and what happened to his clothes? 521 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: Because I got to tell you something, brother, his clothes. 522 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: His clothes would have been I don't know if super saturated. 523 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: It's going to be the wording that we're going to use, 524 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: but he will probably have had some element of blood 525 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: on that clothing. DNA alone with that, you have to 526 00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: be able to answer this question, how did Luna's biological 527 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: signature wind up on this guy? You know? And what? 528 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: How was it? Trent? Is it blood you know? Is 529 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: it skin? You know? Is it hair? Well, if it's blood, 530 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: how did her blood wind up on you? Now he 531 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have to answer that question. Defense doesn't have to 532 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: answer that question. But that's not the important thing. What 533 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: you do is you put that question before the jury, 534 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: because Jerry twelve people, they're gonna be sitting there saying, hmm, yeah, 535 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: how did this young seventeen year old's girl's blood wind 536 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: up on his person? On his clothing? So they're going 537 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: to have to search his domicile from stem to stern. 538 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: I would imagine that they've done that, digging through anything 539 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: that he had. I can't imagine that he just rolled 540 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: into the house on her scooter and laid down the 541 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: bed in these dirty clothes. I can't imagine that maybe 542 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: there was an attempt to clean up after the fact. 543 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. There's there's more to dig into. 544 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: Here, they Joe. One of things that came out in 545 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: looking up who the victim is in this case, trying 546 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: to find out more about her seventeen year old junior 547 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: in high school. And one of the things that she 548 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: loved to do was to swing, you know, a swing set. Yeah, 549 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: And it was so known she would go to the 550 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 2: park and just sit in the swing. It was just 551 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: her thing to do. Everybody knew it. As a matter 552 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 2: of fact, they're decorating one of the swings in the 553 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 2: park in her honor. 554 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: If you think about just the idea of an observable location, 555 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: you know, where she would have been seen, She would 556 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: have been known to maybe be alone, maybe she went 557 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: out on her scooter, went specifically to the park to 558 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: sit on the swings, and if he has a point 559 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: of observation in that location, he can target her at 560 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: that point. But you know, there's any number of other 561 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: places he could have seen her throughout this town where 562 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: he had identified her. And here's one other question I 563 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 1: would have relative to the person that's accused in this case, Dave, 564 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,439 Speaker 1: I want to know if there have been any other 565 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: instances that could have linkage to him and inappropriate behavior 566 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 1: with uh with young ladies around the town. Was there 567 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: anybody else that he had come across that you know, 568 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: and sometimes you know people will say, you know, talk 569 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: about feelings and those sorts of things about he gave 570 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: me the creepy guy feeling or whatever. Was Well, that's 571 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: one thing, But had he ever acted on anything? Because 572 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: this is a big leap here. You know, you're not 573 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: you don't have somebody that's exposing themselves or making a 574 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: threatening comment, which I don't know. Maybe he did at 575 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: some point in time, but what we're seeing right now 576 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: now this is a huge leap. Yeah, and very personal too, man. 577 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about the cutting of a throat here. 578 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: That's that in and of itself is so incredibly intimate. 579 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: So you know, for investigators, they're gonna digging into all 580 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: of this. And again I go back to his home. 581 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: One of the things that's disturbing about this again is 582 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: the fact that he took her items. I want to 583 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: know what other items are in that home. There are 584 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: there any other items that are related to someone else 585 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: perhaps in that town. It wouldn't be hard to kind 586 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,439 Speaker 1: of whittle this down, if you will, and narrow down 587 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: your field here, you know, to kind of explore this 588 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: a little bit, to try to understand that, and you know, 589 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: when it's all stitched together and everything that's that's going 590 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: to be of interest. But there's one more thing I think, 591 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, talking about creating a case that you had 592 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: mentioned to me that I found kind of interesting. They 593 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: initially had did the prosecutor actually recuse themselves from this case? 594 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: When when we were looking at this this is something 595 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: popped up right away and I asked you, is this common? 596 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we're in a very small area where a 597 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: lot of people know you know you into It's like 598 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: you're living at Cheers. Everybody knows your name kind of thing. 599 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 2: And they filed court documents on Monday. I mean, we're 600 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: talking about the day of finding her body. Okay, Sunday night, 601 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: eleven o'clock she's reported missing. They find her body the 602 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: next morning, eight nine am, and they're filing paperwork because 603 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 2: they already have the suspect in custody. He's already lawyered up, 604 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: and they filed court papers where Smith the town prosecutor 605 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: or a county it's Calhoun County, Iowa, where he recuses 606 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: himself from the case and it's given over to the 607 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 2: state and the quote is due to a conflict of interest. However, 608 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: that sat there from Monday until Thursday, and you're going 609 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: conflict of interest? What the you know? But on Thursday 610 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: they amended the ruling the statement rather saying that it 611 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: was an air what it was was, instead of giving 612 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 2: the case over to the Attorney General's office, Smith asked 613 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 2: for the state to assist in the prosecution. It was 614 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 2: an air in filing, so it wasn't a conflict of interest. 615 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 2: Although I'm thinking this is like the hindsight being twenty twenty, 616 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: I think immediately went we all know each other. We 617 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: got to pull in the state for this, for cover ourselves. 618 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 2: We want look, man, no matter how bad you think 619 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 2: of anyone in law enforcement or prosecutorial stuff, ultimately the 620 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: honest ones just want the truth. 621 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want more eyes on you than not when 622 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: you're doing something like this, and this case in a 623 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: town the size, a county the size, you have to 624 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: I think you have to think that this is probably 625 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: one of the most ghastly things that's ever occurred. This 626 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: is something that's going to stay with this community for 627 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: a long long time. And I'm sure the prosecutor sounds 628 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: like they're very thoughtful about this. I would imagine that 629 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: they would want, they would probably welcome having maybe even 630 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: riding second. You know what, the people don't know this 631 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: about attorneys. They talk about first chair and second chair, 632 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: and that's a real thing when you see them like 633 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: at a table like prosecution's table and you see defense table. 634 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: If your first chair, if you're seated closest to the 635 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: aisle first, that means first chair. That means that you're 636 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: the lead on the case and you have second chair, 637 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: and that's how they're lined up. If people have ever 638 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: wondered about that. So that means that, you know, the 639 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: county prosecutor might want to ride second chair on it 640 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: and have you know, and have the state ag come 641 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: in and send one of their prosecutors from des Moines 642 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: or wherever it is that would come in and kind 643 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: of take the lead on it, but with the county 644 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: still having their hand on the wheel. And again, the 645 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: population is so small. I hate to keep, you know, 646 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: kind of going down this road, but it's an interesting 647 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,919 Speaker 1: piece to this case because the population is so very 648 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: small and you don't have a big pool to draw from. 649 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: These people know one another man, you know, it's not 650 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: it's not like you haven't run across them at some 651 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: point in time. And so I think that the prosecutor 652 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: probably wants to avoid any kind of appearance of wrongdoing 653 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: here on any level. I got to say, you know, 654 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: we we were talking just a moment ago. You had 655 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: mentioned that Luna was a junior in high school. Well, 656 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: she's a junior in high school, Dave. Just you can 657 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: only imagine her class. Her overall class size is very small. 658 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: Just the impact that it's going to have on those 659 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: kids that occupied her space. Maybe that same space has 660 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: been occupied by the same group of people since they 661 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: were all in kindergarten. That happens in any small communities 662 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: like this. This is something that will resonate for years 663 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: and years, you know, to come long after the you know, 664 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: the last switches flipped in the courthouse and the lights 665 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: go dim. This will continue in their memory. Every time 666 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: you drive by that field, they'll say, Ah, that's where 667 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: they found Luna, or yeah, that's where Luna lived, or 668 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: that's where the perpetrator lived. More to come on this case, 669 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: and we're going to keep an eye out because again 670 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: it's quite shocking. It's quite shocking to the people in 671 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 1: Calhoun County, Iowa. And we'll wait for more information to come. 672 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm Josephcott Morgan and this is body packs.