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Speaker 1: Every nine years, nine men come into the house so

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Speaker 1: that I can free them from all evil. I hear

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Speaker 1: their footsteps or their voices far away in the galleries

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Speaker 1: of stone, and I run joyously to find them. The

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Speaker 1: ceremony lasts but a few minutes. One after another, they fall,

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Speaker 1: without my ever having to bloody my hands. Where they fall,

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Speaker 1: they remain, and their bodies help distinguish one gallery from

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Speaker 1: the others. I do not know how many there have been,

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Speaker 1: but I do know that one of them predicted as

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Speaker 1: he died, that some day my redeemer would come. Since then,

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Speaker 1: there has been no pain for me in solitude, because

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Speaker 1: I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end

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Speaker 1: he will rise and stand above the dust. If my

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Speaker 1: ear could hear every sound in the world, I would

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Speaker 1: hear his footsteps. I hope he takes me to a

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Speaker 1: place with fewer galleries and fewer doors. What will my

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Speaker 1: Redeemer be like? I wonder? Will he be bull or man?

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Speaker 1: Could he possibly be a bull with the face of

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Speaker 1: a man, or will he be like me? Welcome to

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Speaker 1: stot to blow your mind production of my heart Radio. Hey,

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Speaker 1: you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's been

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Speaker 1: a long time coming. We finally enter the labyrinth of

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Speaker 1: the Minotaur. That's right. We're gonna try and leave some

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Speaker 1: string behind us as we go through these episodes so

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Speaker 1: that you can find your way back out again. But

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Speaker 1: we figured this would be a perfect journey to take

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Speaker 1: during October when we frequently engage on Halloween themed episodes. Now,

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Speaker 1: that cold opening I want to point out was from

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Speaker 1: the the just fabulous short story The House of Hysterian

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Speaker 1: by Johey Luis Borges. This one is translated by Andrew

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Speaker 1: Hurley and I got this out of the Book of

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Speaker 1: Collected Fictions, which is put out by Penguin. The minotaur

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Speaker 1: is kind of the perfect monster. I think the minotaur

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Speaker 1: has very often been done injustice by by films and

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Speaker 1: TV shows, And one of the few exceptions I can

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Speaker 1: think of is Jim Hinson's Storyteller, where that minotaur I

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Speaker 1: think has has just the right balance of of pain

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Speaker 1: and terror and anguish and and and uh and menace

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Speaker 1: uh and and I like that. You you don't often

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Speaker 1: get a very full look at the minotaur in that story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they do the Hintston team does a fabulous job presenting

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Speaker 1: just the physicality of the minotaur, but then also the

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Speaker 1: minotaur is written and performed in such a way that

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Speaker 1: that he is this true hybrid. You know, he's not

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Speaker 1: just beast, but he is also uh human as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's this juxtaposition in his being. He stands

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Speaker 1: across this threshold because we we we find him both

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Speaker 1: both terrifying and tragic. You know, we fear the minotaur

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Speaker 1: even as we empathize with it um you know, and

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Speaker 1: and even as just an adversary in the myth it

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Speaker 1: can it is supposed to combine brute strength and savagery,

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Speaker 1: but also with this cunning, predatory nature. That story by

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Speaker 1: Jorge Luis Borges is quite good because it captures the

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Speaker 1: pity and the pathos that we should feel for him,

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Speaker 1: but it does it in an ironic way. It's like

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Speaker 1: that you feel pity for the minotaur because he's deluded,

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Speaker 1: like he he has a very his vision of his

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Speaker 1: role in in the culture is very confused, like he believes.

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Speaker 1: At one point, he says he gets out of his

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Speaker 1: labyrinth and he wanders around in streets and he says

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Speaker 1: the people are afraid of him, but he believes it's

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Speaker 1: because they recognize his royal blood and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's the you know, here's the powerful descendant

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Speaker 1: of the queen. We must defer. But of course, the

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Speaker 1: the implication once you get to the end of the

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Speaker 1: story and realize that it's about the minotaur, is that

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Speaker 1: I guess they were looking at his horns. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is as as perfect a short story as as

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Speaker 1: I can think of, and it is about really about

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Speaker 1: the perfect monster. And Borhes of course totally this was this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Borhes was was obsessed by by labyrinths and

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Speaker 1: uh and the like, so that this is the perfect

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Speaker 1: myth for him to consider. And indeed the labyrinth is

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Speaker 1: essential to understanding the minotaur. If you take the minotaur

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Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth, as so many works of fiction

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Speaker 1: and films and games do, and all you have is

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Speaker 1: like a pretty cool beast man, but just a beast man.

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Speaker 1: For for the myths to work, for the monster to

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Speaker 1: have its true terror and and and all of these

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Speaker 1: other emotions were attributing to it, he has to reside

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Speaker 1: within this maze, within this artificial habitat that is seemingly

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Speaker 1: designed to confuse us. Yeah, in a way, I think

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Speaker 1: it's almost a mistake to have made the minotaur into

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Speaker 1: um less of a less of a unique sort of

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Speaker 1: proper noun type monster, and more into a species of

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Speaker 1: monster that you might encounter in Dungeons and Dragons or

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Speaker 1: something like that, because it really does. It takes him

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Speaker 1: out of his proper context, right right, and and and

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to Dungeons and Dragons in a bit,

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Speaker 1: because I think there are cases where it can be

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Speaker 1: where there has been some correction applied. But for the

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Speaker 1: most part, yeah, you you you take me make the

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Speaker 1: minotaur into just a species, and you mostly just have

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Speaker 1: a beast man. Uh. The setting is key, and in

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Speaker 1: fact is as Borges pointed out in another work, The

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Speaker 1: Book of Imaginary Beings. This is also from translation by Hurley. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: the image of the labyrinth and the image of the

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Speaker 1: minotaur seemed to go together. It is fitting that at

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Speaker 1: the center of a monstrous house there should live a

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Speaker 1: monstrous inhabitant. I agree, And I think another uniting theme

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Speaker 1: here is confusion, Because what is the thing that makes

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Speaker 1: the hybrid scary. It's that it is a perversion. It

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Speaker 1: is a confusion of nature and what makes the labyrinth scary? Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the I guess, the more classic maze understanding

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Speaker 1: of the labyrinth, rather than the unidirectional labyrinth. We can

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Speaker 1: get into those distinctions in a bit. But the terror

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Speaker 1: there is also a confusion. It's a um it's you know,

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Speaker 1: having the stability of nature and of direction, uh, taken

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Speaker 1: out from under you. You are unmoored when dealing with

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Speaker 1: the minotaur because you don't know which way is which,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know what kind of beasts this is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and and in many ways, this basic idea reverberates

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Speaker 1: through a lot of our horror fiction. I mean, a

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Speaker 1: haunted house has a ghost in it, you know, like that,

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Speaker 1: That's that's how it works. So Leatherface lives in the

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Speaker 1: crazy Chainsaw house, you know, and uh uh, Leathers takes

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Speaker 1: Manhattan would not work right, Uh? You know. Freddie Krueger

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Speaker 1: occupies the realm of dreams. And even even Jason is

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Speaker 1: a is a creature of like of Crystal Lake, right,

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Speaker 1: He's a creature of the woods, of this environment that

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Speaker 1: is far into the various teenagers and what have you

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Speaker 1: that have that are visiting it. I guess That is

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Speaker 1: one reason Jason Takes Manhattan is so funny is because

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Speaker 1: like he just doesn't make any sense whatsoever out of

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Speaker 1: his context. And you actually see that in the tone

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Speaker 1: of the movie because in Jason Takes Manhattan, when he's

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Speaker 1: walking around Times Square, the movie at that point transitions

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Speaker 1: to become a full comedy, like on purpose comedy with

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Speaker 1: jokes where he just lifts his mask up at the

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Speaker 1: punks and scares them, you know, and everybody's now and

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Speaker 1: the kids are saying, like there's a maniac chasing us

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Speaker 1: in the waitress at the diners, like welcomed into York.

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Speaker 1: You know, I never thought of this before, but I'm

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Speaker 1: now assuming that movie came out after Crocodile Dundee, right, probably,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's Crocodile Dundee, but he's Jason. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: of course that's another fish out of water story. But

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Speaker 1: the minotaur is very much a fish in its own waters,

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Speaker 1: waters that are foreign and dark and mysterious to us.

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Speaker 1: And uh and I and I feel like like this

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Speaker 1: is a perfect metaphor for so many fears and anxieties

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Speaker 1: in life. And that's another huge reason that the minotar

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Speaker 1: myth and things that are like the Minetar myth resonates

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Speaker 1: so strongly the idea of a realm that we're uncertain

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Speaker 1: about and the things that might be in there that

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Speaker 1: can harm us. I don't think we've said it so far,

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Speaker 1: but we should acknowledge this is gonna be a two

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Speaker 1: part series because we've wanted to do the Minotaur for years.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why it took us so long to

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Speaker 1: get around to it, but we're gonna have two episodes

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Speaker 1: worth of Minotaur for you. And I think maybe at

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Speaker 1: first here we should just tell the myth, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should. We should just remind everybody what the story is,

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Speaker 1: who the major players are here and and what happens

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Speaker 1: now before we we get going. I do want to

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Speaker 1: to drive home, of course, that the Minetar emergence from

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Speaker 1: Greek myth, but as always, myths are amorphous. They change

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Speaker 1: over time, with different tellings, with different peoples and cultures.

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Speaker 1: Stories merged together, stories split apart, stories are finally recorded

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Speaker 1: and then re recorded and translated, ETCETERA real history, magical thinking,

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Speaker 1: and many other factors come into the creation of a myth,

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Speaker 1: and the Minotaur is no exception. That's right, and This

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Speaker 1: is one thing we talked about when we when we

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Speaker 1: did the Medusa episodes earlier this year that I find

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Speaker 1: often today, like kids are really insistent on knowing what

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Speaker 1: canon is, like what is what is technically canon and

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Speaker 1: what is not canon. I think that that's a product

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Speaker 1: of modern myth making, like Star Wars and stuff, where

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Speaker 1: you've got ideas of intellectual property and like one artist

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Speaker 1: or owner's control over what technically really happens in this

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Speaker 1: mythical universe. That's not how ancient myths are Ancient myths

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Speaker 1: or you know, there's a million different versions of them,

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Speaker 1: especially with like you know, the ones where we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of different sources over hundreds of years, like

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Speaker 1: the Greek myths. You know, you've got sources they go

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Speaker 1: back to a couple of centuries b C. And you've

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Speaker 1: got sources going way up into Some of our fullest

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Speaker 1: sources are from the earliest centuries c E. And so

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Speaker 1: you end up with tons of different variations and there's

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Speaker 1: no way to pick one and say, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: the real version of the myth. Yeah, And I feel

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Speaker 1: like it would be healthier for us if we approached

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Speaker 1: things like Star Wars in that way. I've thought about

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Speaker 1: this a little bit because I've been thinking way too

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Speaker 1: much about Star Wars this year. Uh. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like the Clone Wars, for instance, this is uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a mythic event. Uh. And You're

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Speaker 1: going to have various tellings and retellings of it, and

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Speaker 1: there will continue to be tellings and retellings of it,

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Speaker 1: and and and it's and the thing itself is going

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Speaker 1: to ultimately be shapeless and unformed at the center. The

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Speaker 1: fixed canon is a product of a society that operates

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Speaker 1: largely on the basis of fixed recorded media and has

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Speaker 1: a like capitalist conception of intellectual property. I think those

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Speaker 1: things are just death to mythology. You gotta let it breathe. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and certainly you see even with with with films

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Speaker 1: and whatnot, you see that energy there in the in

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Speaker 1: the fandom and people that follow, you know, we we

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Speaker 1: all want to have our own interpretations of what happened,

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Speaker 1: alternate interpretations. There's this yearning for for for for these interpretations,

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Speaker 1: for fan fictions, for additional fleshings out of mysteries. And

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Speaker 1: I think I think that's basically the same sort of

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Speaker 1: energy that you would see go into the deviation and

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Speaker 1: the and the recreation of myths over time. Now having

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Speaker 1: said all that, I guess we should also try to identify, though,

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Speaker 1: what are the main sources we would be looking at

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Speaker 1: for the closest thing to a canonical version of the myth.

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Speaker 1: I guess the closest thing to canonical would be the

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Speaker 1: version of the myth that most people know, right, And

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the modern understanding of

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Speaker 1: of the men at our story, like as without many

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Speaker 1: other myths, comes down down to of its metamorphosis. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so that was one of the key areas we

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Speaker 1: turned to here. As always, I I pick up Carol

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Speaker 1: Rose's uh books of Monsters and Fairies, because she she

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Speaker 1: did such a fabulous job, uh, you know, basically, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, nailing down that the essential myths, uh, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. But certainly what we're gonna about to

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Speaker 1: roll out here is not the It is not the cannon,

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Speaker 1: but it is maybe as close to the cannon as

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Speaker 1: we can sort of agree on for the purposes of

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Speaker 1: moving forward. Yeah. I just want to mention another major

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Speaker 1: source on this, I think would be pseudo Apolodorus. The

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Speaker 1: I think this is probably now believed to be like

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Speaker 1: a first or second century CE work. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the Biblioteca. It's tells a lot of classic Greek

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Speaker 1: and Roman myths, and it was traditionally attributed to an

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Speaker 1: author named a Polydorus. Now that authorship is questioned, so

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Speaker 1: it's largely known as pseudo Apolodorus. Now ask your doctors

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Speaker 1: about pseudo Apolodorus. Okay, Well, what's the story? Okay? Alright?

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Speaker 1: So so here we go on the isle of Crete.

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Speaker 1: There is a king who, like most kings, desires above

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Speaker 1: all else to ensure and extend his reign. And as

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Speaker 1: he lives in a world ruled by the gods and

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Speaker 1: is himself not entirely without divine blood, he seeks their support. Now,

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Speaker 1: given the creed is surrounded on all sides by the sea,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense to reach out to Poseidon getting into

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Speaker 1: bad company there. Yeah, But you know, kings, they're they're vain, uh,

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Speaker 1: and they see themselves as powerful enough to stand beside

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Speaker 1: such deities. So he asked the sea god to deliver

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Speaker 1: up a sign of his divine right to rule, as

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Speaker 1: well as a proper beast of sacrifice. And so the

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Speaker 1: god does just this. He delivers up this white bull

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Speaker 1: from the surf. It comes, comes, comes out, It's as

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Speaker 1: white as the frothing sea foam itself, and this beast

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Speaker 1: comes to be known as the Cretan Bull. I think

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Speaker 1: even this aspect of the myth is very interesting because

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Speaker 1: is what he does is King Minos asks Poseidon to

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Speaker 1: send him a bull that he can then turn around

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Speaker 1: and sacrifice to Poseidon. So he wouldn't even really be

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Speaker 1: giving of himself, he'd just be sort of returning the

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Speaker 1: favor in a way. Well, I guess it does kind

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Speaker 1: of remind me of like the the gesture of say

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Speaker 1: you you visit somebody's house for dinner, and you bring

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Speaker 1: a bottle of wine, and then the expectation is kind

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Speaker 1: of like that bottle of wine will then be opened

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Speaker 1: and shared with the guests. Okay, I can see that.

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Speaker 1: The analogy I was thinking of was checking the ball

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Speaker 1: in a game of basketball where you've only got one goal,

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Speaker 1: Check the ball. Check the ball, you know, like when

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Speaker 1: you never played half court basketball where you get to

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Speaker 1: the when possession changes you, you check the ball, you

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Speaker 1: throw it to the other team, you say check, and

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Speaker 1: then they throw the ball back to you. It is

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Speaker 1: a sign that possession has changed. Okay, I'll take your

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Speaker 1: word for it. Okay, so the Cretan bowl is fabulous,

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Speaker 1: is beautiful, and then the factors into some other myths

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Speaker 1: as well. But but so splendid is this beast, and

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Speaker 1: so self interested is King Minos that he decides to

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Speaker 1: keep this trophy for himself and instead to offer up

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Speaker 1: the blood sacrifice of immortal bowl so that Poseidon, you know,

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Speaker 1: will still be pleased. Uh. So it's like you bring

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Speaker 1: a really nice bottle of wine to dinner and the

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Speaker 1: host is like, oh thanks, and then gets out the

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Speaker 1: two buck chuck exactly. Yeah. But, as we've touched on before,

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Speaker 1: Poseidon is certainly nobody to trifle with um, even if

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Speaker 1: you do have a little bit of of royal blood

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Speaker 1: of Zeus in your system, as is uh supposed to

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Speaker 1: be the case with Minos. Okay, well, we know from

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Speaker 1: experience that Poseidon does not deal well with slides. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Poseidon does not even usually treat people well if they've

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Speaker 1: done nothing to him. So he is he's bad news.

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Speaker 1: How is he going to react to this? Well horribly?

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Speaker 1: But by comparing preparing it to other things, Besidon is done.

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Speaker 1: I mean he he was almost playing at softball here,

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Speaker 1: as we'll see, but that still he definitely has the

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Speaker 1: last laugh. So here's what Poseidon did. He bewitched Minos's wife, Pacific,

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Speaker 1: causing her to fall in love with the Cretan bull.

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Speaker 1: So she ends up belonging to be one with this beast.

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Speaker 1: And she convinces the master artificer Daedalus, who was then

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Speaker 1: residing in Crete, to craft for her this mechanical bovine

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Speaker 1: likeness that wouldn't enable her to then mate with the bull. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So Poseidon, by which is pacifically says you're gonna fall

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Speaker 1: in love with this bull? She does. She gets Deadalus

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Speaker 1: to build her robot bull so she can get inside

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Speaker 1: it and have sex with the white bull. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: this results in a monstrous pregnancy, producing a monstrous hybrid

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Speaker 1: part human part bull. This is the Bull of Minos,

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Speaker 1: or the Minotaur, also known as a stereon. Yes um,

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Speaker 1: And certainly that that gets back to the title of

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Speaker 1: that borhe story, the House of Hysteria. Now, the exact

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Speaker 1: form of the minotaur was not always well to find uh.

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Speaker 1: The The A. S. Klein translation of The Metamorphosis describes

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Speaker 1: a quote strange hybrid creature, a twin form of bull

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Speaker 1: and man and bores. Is actually in that passage that

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Speaker 1: I read, he's alluding to this a little bit, uh

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Speaker 1: the idea that sometimes there is this idea that maybe

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Speaker 1: the minotaur is more like the face of a man

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Speaker 1: on the body of a bull rather than the reverse.

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Speaker 1: So now we have the minotaur, and it's easy to

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Speaker 1: sort of overlook how strange this creature is and exactly

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Speaker 1: like what it's mixed lineage means, because this is a

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Speaker 1: monster of two worlds yet none. It's the It's a

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Speaker 1: product of minos Is blasphemy, Poseidon's wrath, Pacific's lust. It

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Speaker 1: was an unnatural being, and yet it also was sacred.

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Speaker 1: Minos could not simply just kill it and slaughter it,

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Speaker 1: or cast it out back into the sea. You know

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Speaker 1: where it's a it's it's father, the bull came from.

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Speaker 1: So instead he chooses to hide it away, and luckily

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Speaker 1: he had in his employ just the right man to

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Speaker 1: design a most elegant hiding place. I want to read

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Speaker 1: here from the Metamorphoses, the garthen Dryden translation that talks

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Speaker 1: about this part. So Avid writes, when Minos willing to

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Speaker 1: conceal the shame that sprung from the reports of tattling

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Speaker 1: fame resolves a dark enclosure to provide, and far from sight,

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Speaker 1: the two formed creature hide. Great Dadalus of Athens was

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Speaker 1: the man that made the draft and formed the wondrous

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Speaker 1: plan where rooms within themselves encircled lie with various windings

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Speaker 1: to deceive the eye. As soft meanders wanton current plays

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Speaker 1: when through the phrygian fields, it loosely strays backward and

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Speaker 1: forward rolls the dimpled tide, seeming at once two different

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Speaker 1: ways to glide when circling streams their former banks survey

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Speaker 1: and waters past succeeding waters sea now floating to the

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Speaker 1: sea with downward course now pointing upward to its ancient source.

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Speaker 1: Such was the work, so intricate, the place that scarce

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Speaker 1: the workman all its turns could trace, And Dadalus was

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Speaker 1: puzzled how to find the secret ways of what himself designed.

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Speaker 1: That's that's wonderful. Oh yeah, So he's describing this thing

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Speaker 1: that these galleries, this place that's often described as a

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Speaker 1: maze or a labyrinth, as as being as confusing as

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Speaker 1: waters that churned back and forth without apparent rhyme or reason. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love this. So he makes some comparisons to the

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Speaker 1: natural world here, But but it is the ultimate unnatural

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Speaker 1: environment to house the ultimate unnatural creature. But maybe I

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Speaker 1: should read the next two lines because that sets up

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Speaker 1: what we're getting into now, these private walls the minotaur

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Speaker 1: include who twice was glutted with Athenian blood. That's not

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Speaker 1: a good rhyme, is it. I guess that reflects how

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Speaker 1: English pronunciation has changed over time. This is a very

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Speaker 1: old translation. I think it's ultimately perfect too, that that

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Speaker 1: Minos has this constructed, you know, because ultimately again, think

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Speaker 1: of the of the minotaur as a creature representing the

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Speaker 1: shaming of Minos. You know, it is the revenge of

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Speaker 1: of Poseidon. But a king doesn't really suffer shame like

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Speaker 1: you or I. His awfulness is common knowledge, right. He

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Speaker 1: He can't just change the central vileness upon which everything spends,

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Speaker 1: but he can alter the surrounding reality. He can foster confusion, misinformation.

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Speaker 1: He can tear apart your faith in the ordered structure

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Speaker 1: of cosmos, of society, of law or order. In short,

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Speaker 1: a king builds a maze, or certainly he pays a

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Speaker 1: great inventor who is by the way, in the case

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Speaker 1: of data lists, fleeing his own shame to build it

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Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, and so it's kind of hard to

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Speaker 1: understand exactly what it means that Dadalusts, like the great craftsman,

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Speaker 1: builds this maze. The other things we know of Dalists

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Speaker 1: for creating are, for example, the wings that he uses

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Speaker 1: ultimately to escape the realm of King Minos or Minos.

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Speaker 1: I know, we keep saying it both ways, and we're

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Speaker 1: probably just gonna keep saying it both ways. I hope

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Speaker 1: you're all right with that. But yeah, he makes the

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Speaker 1: wings of the wax and the feathers that he and

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Speaker 1: Icarus used to to escape the island. That doesn't go

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Speaker 1: so well for for Icarus. We all know that story.

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Speaker 1: But he, you know, and he's also renowned to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, the great master craftsman who makes statues that

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Speaker 1: are so lifelike it seems as if they will they

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Speaker 1: will become quickened and walk away. But here he has

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Speaker 1: made this this sort of like Palace of Confusion, which

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00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: is ultimately some combination of prison and weapon, and it

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Speaker 1: is his ultimate creation. And is Ovid points out a

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Speaker 1: creation so well designed, the Datalus himself barely escapes it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and that of course plays more into the myth of Icarus.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, yes, the maze of the King becomes

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Speaker 1: not only a defensive ploy but weapon. And indeed the

385
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: Minoan mays came to feature into Minos's destructive policies. He

386
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Speaker 1: required tributes sent each year by other lands, including Athens,

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Speaker 1: and these individuals were thrown into the labyrinth, where they

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Speaker 1: were then hunted through the twisted halls amid the echoing

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Speaker 1: screams until they too confronted the minotaur and were torn

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Speaker 1: to bloody shreds and and presumably consumed as well. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so they demand tribute from Athens or is it just

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Speaker 1: from Athens or is it from other city states as well?

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00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: I believe other city states as well. But of course

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Speaker 1: this is the Athens is most central to the telling

395
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: of the myth, right because ultimately the hero of the story,

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Speaker 1: theseus will come from Athens. But from Athens. Every nine

397
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Speaker 1: years they demanded fourteen young people of sacrifice, seven maidens

398
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: and seven young men, and so they would be taken

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Speaker 1: away by ship to to the palace of of Minos,

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Speaker 1: and then they would be sent into the labyrinth to

401
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Speaker 1: meet their fate as a human sacrifice to the monster. Oh,

402
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: and of course the minotaur would eat them. I don't

403
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Speaker 1: know if he mentioned that part. The minotaur would devour

404
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Speaker 1: their flesh. Yum, yum. So inter theseius, Thepeus is the

405
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: fated one, the one, the fated slayer of the monster. Um.

406
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Speaker 1: And of course there's more to his story as well.

407
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Speaker 1: But basically what happens is he takes the place of

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Speaker 1: a tribute that is being sent to Crete. Right, He's

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Speaker 1: like one of these guys who would be sacrificed. No,

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Speaker 1: I'll go instead because I know what I can do.

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Speaker 1: I can kill that minotaur. Right. And of course he

412
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Speaker 1: is uh. You know, he's a handsome prince. So what

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Speaker 1: does he do he? You know, he impresses people with

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Speaker 1: his charisma. He makes an ally in Ariadne, the daughter

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Speaker 1: of King Minos. Right. Uh. It's often said that she

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Speaker 1: falls in love with him, though I don't know if

417
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,959
Speaker 1: that's in every telling. So for some reason they end

418
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Speaker 1: up allied, yes, and uh and what does she do? Well?

419
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: She she gives him privileged information. She gives him a

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Speaker 1: ball of string to unwind behind him as he travels

421
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: through the labyrinth, and She tells him the various twist

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00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: and turns that will lead him out of the labyrinth,

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00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 1: because that's what the string is for, but to the

424
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: heart of the labyrinth, to the place where the minotaur

425
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: can be found. Uh. In other words, turned the hunted

426
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: into the hunter instead of being in there just kind

427
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: of lost and hunted by the minotaur. He'll know how

428
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 1: to get straight to the monster and kill it. And

429
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happens. He follows her instructions, he slays

430
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: the minotaur and then follows the string back to the surface.

431
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: He ends up eloping with the daughter of King Minos,

432
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: but then ultimately abandons her, just totally maroons her on

433
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: an island. Yes, and and this is That's another great

434
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: thing about the the Jim Hinson Storyteller episode is that

435
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: it it definitely it doesn't just play Theseus up is

436
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: this perfect monster killer hero, but also shows this, I think,

437
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: to at least to modern interpretations and modern viewers, this

438
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: unsavory nature of the hero. You know, I was thinking

439
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: about how the story of Theseus and the Minotaur has

440
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: actually so much in common with the story of Percy

441
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: and Medusa, especially in the broad Strokes and in the

442
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: way modern audiences would react to it, and you have

443
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: to imagine, are we reacting to the story with different

444
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: values in a in a different way than ancient Greek

445
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: audiences would have reacted to it. But you know, some

446
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: of the broad contours that are the same are starts

447
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: with Poseidon doing something cruel because he's awful, and this

448
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: cruelty of Poseidon results in the creation of a monster.

449
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: The monster ends up living in some kind of secluded

450
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: underworld where it kills people, but only really when they

451
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: come to its domain. There is a young hero, the

452
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: son of a king of Sorts now in Perseus. He

453
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: is actually the son of Zeus. Theseus is the son

454
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: of a Gus, the king of Athens, but either way

455
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: the son of a king the son of a king.

456
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: Hero sets out to kill the monster. He receives tools

457
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: and strategies to help him from other people. Perseus gets

458
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: helped from Athena and hermi Is, giving him tools and

459
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: advice that will help him kill mad Usa. Theseus gets

460
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: tools and advice from Ariadney and Dadalus that will help

461
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: him kill the monster. The young hero succeeds in killing

462
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: the monster, then turns out at least on a critical

463
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: reading to be an absolute jerk. Remember Perseus going around

464
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: just showing the head of Medusa to random people. Oh yeah,

465
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: and then like if someone ticks him off, he'll just

466
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: turn him to stone with it. You know. He's just

467
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: kind of rampaging through the aisles surrounding aisles with that thing. Yeah,

468
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: and Theseus of course abandons Ariadney on the on the island,

469
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: And then in the end, at least as a modern

470
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: critical reader. For some reason, I in both stories end

471
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: up feeling more sympathy for the monster. The monster is

472
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: kind of pitiable. Yeah, there is this sense in in

473
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: some of the tellings that that the and and this

474
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: is also reflected in Borgees retelling that the monster doesn't

475
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: even necessarily put up much of a fight, or get

476
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: to put up much of a fight. He is just

477
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: dispatched by our hero here because you have to again,

478
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: I think you have to think of the minotaur not

479
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: only is an occupant of the maze, but a part

480
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: of the maze, a function of the maze, like the

481
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: killing center of the maze. And via this privileged information

482
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: that he gets Theseus, makes himself the center of the maze,

483
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: makes himself the killing function of the Manoan maze. Oh

484
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: and by the way, I also think it's fitting that

485
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: the the that's this whole episode ends up with with

486
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: this tragic turn of events for Minos his daughter as well,

487
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: which also feels a part uh somehow of Poseidon's grand design. Yeah, yeah,

488
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And there's more tragedy too because when um,

489
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: when Theseus is returning home to Athens, his father Agus

490
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: gets confused about what's happening because of the way the

491
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: boat is returning and ends up killing himself throwing himself

492
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: into the sea. Uh. And then that's how we get

493
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: the name of the A, G, and C. Yeah. So

494
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: there's so many interesting themes in this story that that

495
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: we can get into over the next couple of episodes.

496
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: It deals with, of course, this this hybrid bull human monster.

497
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: Of course, it deals with human sacrifice, It deals deals

498
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: with mazes and labyrinths. Uh. There's a lot of rich

499
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: territory here, yes, and and certainly in a one angle

500
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: on it too. Is is going to be just questions

501
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: of the the Noan civilization of Crete and the Greek

502
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: perceptions of that civilization. But I wanna I want to

503
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: stress that the episode following this one will get more

504
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 1: into that than this episode, So just just stay tuned

505
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: if you have a lot of of of of of

506
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: nagging questions about that aspect of the myth. Alright, on

507
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take a quick break, but

508
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: when we come back, we will venture into hell. Alright,

509
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: we're back. So I want to talk a bit about

510
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: how the figure of the minotaur developed after the Greco

511
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: Roman world. And one example that I've come across recently,

512
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: because I think we've talked about this on the show,

513
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: is that this year Rachel and I have been rereading

514
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: The Divine Comedy, which has been surprisingly fun. I know,

515
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: like to to modern readers that it seem kind of weird.

516
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: Oh really, you want to get into all this stuff about,

517
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, medieval Catholic theology and politics, But if you

518
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: have an addition that's got really good notes, filling you

519
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: in on the historical context is actually a really fun

520
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: and interesting and funny read. We've been reading from several translations.

521
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: We use the Pinskey translation of the Inferno. Uh, We've

522
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: been using the Gene Hollander translation of the Purgatorio and

523
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: the Paradiso, but using the notes by John Chiardi and

524
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: those notes. Charity's notes are fantastic. But so the minotaur

525
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: does appear in the Divine Comedy in Hell, of course,

526
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: And this is in Canto twelve, when Dante and his guide,

527
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: the the Latin poet Virgil, are descending into the Seventh

528
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: Circle of Hell. So, of course, Virgil is guiding Dante

529
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: through the different realms of the afterlife to sort of

530
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: educate him on what awaits after death and get him

531
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: to repent and turn more fully to God. And so

532
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: they're descending through Hell, and Dante's missing all the horrors

533
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: of Hell, and they're going down into the seventh Circle,

534
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: which is reserved for people whose nature is violence. And

535
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: they enter the circle by descending a fallen rock wall.

536
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: And here I just want to read from the RDI translation,

537
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: such was the passage down the steep, And there at

538
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: the very top, at the edge of the broken cleft,

539
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: lay spread the infamy of crete, the air of beast reality.

540
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: And the lecherous queen who hid in a wooden cow,

541
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: And when he saw us, he gnawed his own flesh

542
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: in a fit of spleen. And my master mocked, how

543
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: you do pump your breath? Do you think perhaps it

544
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: is the Duke of Athens who, in the world above

545
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: served up your death off with you, monster, This one

546
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: does not come instructed by your sister, but of himself

547
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: to observe your punishment in the Lost Kingdom. As a

548
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: bull that breaks its chains just when the knife has

549
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: struck its death blow, cannot stand nor run, but leaps

550
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: from side to side with its last life, So danced

551
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: the minotaur, and my shrewd guide cried out, run now

552
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: while he is blind with rage into the past, quick

553
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: and get over the side. This is great. And one

554
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: of the things I love about about like this, this

555
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: particular passage from Inferno, is that it almost is like

556
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: a Looney Tunes cartoon. Yes, you know, yeah, I mean

557
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the Inferno is that way.

558
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: It's like they run into a monster or a figure,

559
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: you know, an evil figure or something. Uh. There's a

560
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: great part where they come up to plute us who's

561
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: clucking at them, and uh, you know there are parts

562
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: where uh, the beasts menacing them in untranslatable languages of hell,

563
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, the tongue of the Inferno Poppy, Satan, Aleppe

564
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: and all that great stuff. But uh, but yeah, and

565
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: then and then Virgil will often like mock them, or

566
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: they'll kind of scramble away. And so what Virgil does

567
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: is he gets the minotaur really mad, and he's like

568
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: stomping and huffing like a bowl I guess, you know,

569
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: the like the Looney Tunes bowl, actually scratching the ground

570
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: and snorting. And then they scramble over the rocks and

571
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: get away. But I like the implication of them scrambling away.

572
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: This is never fully made clear in the Divine Comedy,

573
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: but it makes me wonder, like, was there a possibility

574
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: that Virgil and Dante could be killed while in hell

575
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: and would not get to complete the tour of the afterlife?

576
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, Um, it's certainly implied. You know, there

577
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: is this sense of danger at times where where virgils

578
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: having to urge him on and and is there as

579
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: a protector of sorts, so uh, you know, in addition

580
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: to guide. Uh So, yeah, I always got the sense

581
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: that that that that was a possibility. And oh and

582
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: by the way, um, I was always partial to the

583
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: robert Ian Durling translations of of Inferno and in Purgatory.

584
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: Uh As I recall when I was reading these they

585
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: had not yet come out with up or that they

586
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: had not yet published a translation of his of Paradise.

587
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: But that is out now as well, and has been

588
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: for for years. Oh interest thing. I don't know anything

589
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: about that translation. I'll have to look into it. I

590
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: feel like I'm almost without doing it on purpose, becoming

591
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: a sort of Dante translation nerd this year, just because

592
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: we've been we've been looking at so many different ones.

593
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: I don't remember the details on that translation so much,

594
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: but but when I um when I studied uh Dante

595
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: a little bit in college, they those were the additions

596
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: that our our teacher recommended. So that's the one we got,

597
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: and I found it quite I think. Earlier, without the

598
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: you know, the aid of a class environment, I had

599
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: tried reading some other translation, like a Penguin translation, and

600
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: I didn't get as much out of it. But I

601
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: really liked these these additions. One thing I will say,

602
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: if you want to make a go of reading the

603
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: Divine Comedy, I think it is absolutely crucial to seek

604
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: out one that has really good notes that absolutely it

605
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: helps explain everything because these books like this is this

606
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: is medieval epic poetry that is full of contemporary political

607
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: and historical and you know, theological mythological references. It's just

608
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: crammed with culture and cultural references that you're not gonna

609
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: understand unless you have some background. But if you do

610
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: get the background, it can become very like interesting and

611
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: funny watching like how you know again, like medieval Florentine

612
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: politics are projected into the afterlife. Oh yeah, there's a

613
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: lot of Dante settling old scores and picking at his

614
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: enemies and also like talking about friends who you know,

615
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: tragic things happen to and sort of remembering them like

616
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's a really beautiful work. And it

617
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: covers it does. It covers a lot of territory. Once

618
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: you even emerge from just the inferno, you'll feel like

619
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: you've had a crash course in in in the politics

620
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: and uh and uh and and religious and just cultural

621
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: world of the time. Totally. Now, I wanted to talk

622
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: about a couple of things about this passage that I

623
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: thought were interesting. One of them is, uh, why is

624
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: this where the minotaur is in hell? In the seventh circle?

625
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: I mean, one part is clear, because this is the

626
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: circle of violence, right, One part is clear, it's the

627
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: violence against others you know, the minotaur kills and eats people.

628
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: But I think there's like a threefold thing going on here,

629
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: which is that the minotaur is depicted as a violent

630
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: against others by killing and eating them, violent against himself

631
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: because it shows him knowing his own flesh and anger.

632
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: And then finally that this is the kind of thing

633
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: that shows up a lot in the Inferno. He is

634
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: violent against nature by way of his monstrous hybrid city.

635
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: The fact that he's part human and part bull is

636
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: a form of violence. Now you could say that's not

637
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: really the minotaur's fault, but uh, in the in the

638
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: medieval Catholic theology that places people in Dante's Hell, a

639
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: lot of people are there for things that we would

640
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: say are not really their fault, right right. But this

641
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: is also, interestingly one of the dozens, i'd say, probably

642
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: hundreds of instances throughout the Divine Comedy of what I

643
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: think would be called syncretism in any other context. Of course,

644
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: syncretism is the blending or mixing of different religious or

645
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 1: cultural traditions. Uh Adunte is supposedly writing Orthodox Catholic theology

646
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: and fantasy form, but throughout the Divine Comedy he takes

647
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: as real all the gods and heroes and monsters of

648
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: classical Greek and Roman mythology, which would have been considered

649
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: like Satanic paganism in a way, but by a lot

650
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: of you know, Christian thinkers. But it seems for Dante,

651
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: Greco Roman mythology is is just sort of rolled straight

652
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: up into Christianity as if they are the same thing

653
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: and part of the same tradition. So hell is full

654
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: of figures from Greek mythology as if they actually existed

655
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: and are real figures, you know, dealing with with the

656
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: ramifications of of Christian salvation and stuff. Yeah, it is

657
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: a It is a rich hell that Dante creates here,

658
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: full of full of all these mythological figures. Uh, these monsters,

659
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: also demons and devils, but also people he knew, people

660
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: he liked, people he hated, reviled Kara. There's from recent histories.

661
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, they're all there. I just find that so

662
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: interesting if anybody out there is a Dante scholar and

663
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: wants to get in touch with us about the syncretistic aspects,

664
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: like what, why was it seen as totally acceptable to

665
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: just essentially take all of these classic Greco Roman myths

666
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: as basically true, except unfortunately Odysseus was not afforded Christian salvation.

667
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: All right, well, we could, we could obviously keep going

668
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: on and on about Dante, and we should, we should

669
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: probably will definitely come back to Dante again in the future,

670
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: and maybe we should do a proper episode about about

671
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: Inferno as well. But let's come back to the meat here.

672
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: Let's come back to the minotaur. Okay, so maybe we

673
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: should talk about labyrinths and mazes. We alluded earlier to

674
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: the fact that these terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but

675
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: sometimes they're used to mean very distinct and different things. Yeah.

676
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: At times, there's this distinction between a branching assembly of

677
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: artificial paths and halls that are designed to confuse, and

678
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: in some cases these attributes are defined as a maze,

679
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: not a labyrinth. And then on the other hand, there's

680
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 1: the idea of this complex system that has but one

681
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: path through it. Uh, and this is sometimes described more

682
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: as a pure labyrinth. Uh. We need not get caught

683
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: up too much in the terminology here, because they are

684
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: used interchangeably today. But but this is this idea is

685
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: rather fascinating because you know, first and foremost, a labyrinth

686
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: or maze is generally an artificial environment um or at

687
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: least an artificial reworking of the natural environment in terms

688
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: of things like hedge mazees, hedge labyrinths, etcetera. But in

689
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: in there, in the purer sense of the word, a

690
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: labyrinth or maze has no other purpose other than to

691
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: confuse the individual with a complex system or to seamlessly

692
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: guide them through it. So the sort of labyrinth one

693
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: encounters on stones and church courtyards, for instance, there's only

694
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: one way through, there's not You don't have to make

695
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: any decisions. You just follow the path and it will

696
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: lead you through a complex system and back out again.

697
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: It's essentially a mindfulness exercise. Yeah, these are Sometimes the

698
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: terminology used is unicursive versus multi cursive. Was like, if

699
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: a labyrinth is the of the unicursive type, it means

700
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: there's only one path. It is very complicated, but you

701
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: can only basically go one direction unless you turn around

702
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: and go back the way you came from. The multi

703
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: cursive would be the ones where you have options about

704
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: which way to turn and can reach dead ends. Yeah,

705
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: in one you you lose your way and the other

706
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 1: one you sort of lose your your sense of self. Yeah,

707
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: and and and so the unicursive labyrinth. It's interesting to

708
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: think how that, like, you know, it could be thought

709
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: of as having metaphorical meanings, Like it's kind of fatalistic

710
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: in a way, there's only one way you can go.

711
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: It's also sort of an an act of submission in

712
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: a way, you're submitting to the designer of the labyrinth

713
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: and saying, like, I will just go the only way

714
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: there is to go. Yeah. And what I find interesting

715
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: is that ultimately both of these in repretations work well

716
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: with the minotaur myth. I mean, we we tend to

717
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: go with the version of the Minoan maze or the

718
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: labyrinth that the minetar resides in as being a place

719
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: of confusion, and then the master of confusion is the

720
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: minotaur that lives there. But you know, I also like

721
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: the idea of the labyrinth as a thing that is

722
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: complex but leads you down one path, and that one path,

723
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: of course, will take you to the mazes kill function

724
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: the minotar. Yeah, that's that's a different kind of terror.

725
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: You can instead of confusion, you can only go one

726
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: way and you know what lies that way, but you

727
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: can't go back. There's nowhere to go there. Yeah, you

728
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: can either go forward to death or not go at all. Yeah.

729
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: And again the data lists is the you know, the

730
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: master builder here, so you know, you can easily imagine

731
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: him creating this sort of structure that is about delivering

732
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: people onto the Minotaur. Which do you think deadalists would

733
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,879
Speaker 1: have been more likely to create? I mean, I think

734
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: it's often described explicitly as a maze, a multi cursive maze.

735
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: But if you have the option which is more dead

736
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: list like, I don't know, if he's more egotistical, if

737
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: he's more you know, obsessed with his own skill and

738
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: all that he might want to be the the ultimate

739
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: controller that sets you on a unicursal labyrinth where you

740
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: know you have to go the way he tells you

741
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: to go. Yeah. Um, you know, I think I like,

742
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: I think I can make a case for either way.

743
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: But ultimately I see the maze of the Minotaur as

744
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: being a place of multiple, multiple branching paths and confusion. Now,

745
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that you begin to

746
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: see though when you read about labyrinths and ancient accounts

747
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: of alleged labyrinths, aside from just how diverse the subject is,

748
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: is that there's often a description leveled at certain ancient

749
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: complexes and uh and and temples and structures like that,

750
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: and over time there's a transformation from a place that

751
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: has another purpose but is also confusing, into a place

752
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: that was clearly designed and built to confuse. And perhaps

753
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: we kind of observed the same sort of hyperbole when

754
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: considering confusing door layouts, you know, new cities and more,

755
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: you know where we think, oh man, they just they

756
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: just made this place to drive me crazy. Why is

757
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: this place constructed like this? Um is is like Walmart

758
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: a maze, whereas I Kea is a unicursal labyrinth. It's true,

759
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: I Kia does have that layout where you can you

760
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: you can cut directly through everything, but still they are

761
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: very much guiding your path. So I don't know. I

762
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: don't have much experience with Ikea. I went there once,

763
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: and I remember it being more more like that. There

764
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: is a minotar, oh really, but it's called flingbow with

765
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: an oom out probably. But coming back to what you

766
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: were saying about places with an original use being later

767
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: confused for a labyrinth, I think that that actually does

768
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: apply to some possible ruins in Egypt which UM have

769
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: been interpreted by some archaeologists, or maybe not archaeologist, by

770
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: some thinkers throughout history as something that was supposed to

771
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: be a confusing maze or labyrinth, but in fact was

772
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: probably just some kind of like temple or burial complex

773
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: that has been you know, massively degraded in a structural

774
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: sense over time and appears confusing to people who are

775
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: unearthing and exploring it. Now, yeah, this is the case

776
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: of the ancient Egyptian labyrinth. So it was often referred

777
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: I was reading about this in a book by William

778
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: Henry Matthews Amazes and Uh in Labyrinths. This is a

779
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: seminal work on the subject. UH. But he mentions just

780
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: the the evocative language of of using labyrinth quote a

781
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: structure which evoked so much wonder and admiration in ancient

782
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: times that can hardly fail to have roused the curiosity

783
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: of later generations. And so when he's talking about the

784
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: the ancient ancient Egyptian labyrinth, this is interesting because this

785
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: is the the oldest structure or place that apparently has

786
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: been described in these terms, and it was described by

787
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: the likes of herodotus Um. Now these these whatever, this

788
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: exactly was it did not survive destruction during Roman times. Uh.

789
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: And it seems though that it was some sort of

790
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: temple structure or some sort of temple compound. It definitely

791
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: was not created just to confuse foreigners, much like um,

792
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: foreign airports that you travel to were not designed just

793
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: to confuse you, even though that is the effects you

794
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: may feel. Um. But at any rate, the thing that

795
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: confuses foreigners becomes a thing that was built to confuse

796
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: them in these tellings. Oh, that's like one of those

797
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: egocentric biases we've discovered, where you think that the the

798
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: effect a thing has on you is the purpose it

799
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: was intentionally created for. Yeah. Uh. There's a quote that

800
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: gets into some of this too that ran across. This

801
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: is from Penelope read Dube from the idea of the

802
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: labyrinth from classical Antiquity through the Middle Ages. Quote, what

803
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: you see depends on where you stand. And thus, at

804
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: one and the same time, labyrinths are single. There is

805
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: one physical structure and double They simultaneously incorporate order and disorder,

806
00:44:54,680 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: clarity and confusion, unity and multiplicity, artistry and chaos, nice

807
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: much like the minotaur in his double nature. Yeah, and

808
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, I have to say I see another common

809
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: trend trend as well, if you write about mazes and labyrinths,

810
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: or even if you do a little podcast that covers them. Um,

811
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: if you're doing fiction or nonfiction, it doesn't matter if

812
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: you if you do something about mazes and labyrinths, you

813
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: can end up crafting or traversing this sort of literary

814
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: um maze or labyrinth as well. This is something that's

815
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: that's often you know, cited in these works like just

816
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: straight up either sometimes in ingest but other times as

817
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: part of the texture of the piece. Almost more than

818
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: any other physical object or structure in the world, the

819
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: maze or labyrinth just asks you to use it as

820
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: a metaphor. I mean, the maze is time, right, It's

821
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: like you can't see around the corner. Yeah, the mazes time.

822
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: I think that the mazes is the world, but it's

823
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: also our perception of the world. Um. And again I

824
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: think that's why this idea so engages us. There's like

825
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: there's basically no complex system in the world or in

826
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: our you know, information technology, et cetera that you cannot

827
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: apply the metaphor of the maze and the minotaur too

828
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: and get something memorable out of it. You know, there's

829
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: like any complex system, I don't I don't care if

830
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: it's the law, or politics, or or science. I mean

831
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: that whatever it is, there is conceivably a minotaur in there. Alright,

832
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break,

833
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: but we will be right back. Thank thank Alright, we're

834
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: back now. I think it's time that we talk a

835
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: little bit of minotaur biology, because one of the things

836
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: that I have always wondered about the minotaur is why

837
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: does it eat humans? Now, I could imagine if the

838
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: minotaur was not the minotaur, but say the minto croc

839
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: and it had the head of a crocodile, a crocodile

840
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: that could eat a human. And so you could totally

841
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: understand why the human with the head of a crocodile

842
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: would live at the center of a maze and eat

843
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: fourteen youths from Athens every year. But bulls do not

844
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: normally eat humans. A bull is a herbivore. It eats grass,

845
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: or it eats grain, or you know, it can of

846
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: course eat some animal protein supplemented grain if that's what

847
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: you're feeding it. But in the natural world, we do

848
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: not think of bow vines like bulls and cows as

849
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: hunting and eating other animals, certainly not other mammals. So

850
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: why doesn't the minotaur just eat grass? Well, I think

851
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: maybe we've got a good answer for you, and it's

852
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: along some lines that might be familiar to listeners of

853
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: the show. Now, we've already ruined squirrels for you. You know,

854
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: sometimes a squirrel just needs to eat a bird or

855
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: another rodent. How do you like that, Well, we're going

856
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: to do the same thing with cattle, Joe, I am.

857
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: I am happy to report that chipmunks have also developed

858
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: an appetite for the meal worms that I put out

859
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: for the squirrels. Uh um, that's that's been one of

860
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: my recent observations. Uh. Here in coin Tea, more beautiful

861
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: rodents getting in on the animal flesh action. Yeah, but

862
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: they're adorable when they do it. Chip Monks cannot help

863
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: the adorable. But but as far as the myth goes,

864
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: I guess I gathered that the minotaur has been starved.

865
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 1: He is down there like an animal in a pit. Uh,

866
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: so he's going to tear into whatever he gets. But then,

867
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: on the other hand, of course, he is not entirely bull.

868
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: He is also part human. In humans, eat meat. But yeah,

869
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: but if he was fully human, wouldn't that mean he

870
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: would eat twice as much meat as it. It just

871
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense that like adding part bull to him

872
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: would make him more desiring of human flesh, except in

873
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: the general logic of well, he's a monster and monsters

874
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: eat humans, so maybe he could also have the head

875
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: of a rabbit and he would eat humans. He would

876
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: not be as terrifying. But yeah, this brings us back

877
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: to some of the best of modern zoology, which is that, uh,

878
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: some of the animals, many of the animals that subsist

879
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: largely on plant based food, are actually able to eat meat.

880
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: We now know this in the modern world, especially with

881
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, modern video documentation, you can learn quite a

882
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: bit about what supposedly docile herbivores will do when given

883
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: the opportunity. Uh. And it appears that bovines are no exception.

884
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: So I want to start with a story that was

885
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: reported in Reuters from March seventh, two thousand seven. Uh.

886
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: This is a dateline Calcutta quote. When dozens of chickens

887
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: went missing from a remote West Bengal village. Everyone blamed

888
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: the neighborhood dogs. That would make sense right, you know,

889
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: the dogs get into the chicken coop, but it continues.

890
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: But Agia Ghosh, the owner of the missing chickens, eventually

891
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: solved the puzzle when he caught his cow, a sacred

892
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 1: animal for the Hindu family, gobbling up several of them

893
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: at night. That's gobbling up several of the chickens, not

894
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: of the family. We were shocked to see our calf

895
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: eating chickens alive, ghost told Reuters by phone from chand

896
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: Poor village. The family decided to stand guard at night

897
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: on Monday at the cow shed, which also served as

898
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: a hen coop, after forty eight chickens went missing in

899
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: a month. Instead of the dogs, we watched in horror

900
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: as the calf, whom we had fondly named Lal, sneak

901
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: to the coop and grabbed the little ones with the

902
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: precision of a jungle cat, said his brother gor Ghosh. Uh.

903
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: And then it goes on to describe how a local

904
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: television station in India went to the village to get

905
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 1: pictures of the cow grabbing and eating a chicken. Uh

906
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: and Uh. Then the article consults me here sat Pati,

907
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 1: who is a district veterinary officer, who said quote, we

908
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: think lack of vital minerals in the body is causing

909
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: this behavior. We have taken a look and ask doctors

910
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: to look into the case immediately. The strange behavior is

911
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: possible in some exceptional cases. So it says that hundreds

912
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: of villagers had come to chant poor to Uh to

913
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: watch the cow eat and sometimes eat chickens um And

914
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: it said that local veterinary authority is believe the cow

915
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: was probably suffering from some kind of disease that made

916
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: it eat these chickens, but ultimately they didn't really know. Now,

917
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: on one hand, I would say, Okay, this is a

918
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: Reuters report. I think of Reuter's is very credible reporting.

919
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: But also this story feels very daily mail. You know,

920
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: I I could easily react to this and say this

921
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: is I don't know. I don't trust this reporting. Except

922
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: that there's video. I don't necessarily recommend people watch it

923
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: because I don't know if if you are inclined to

924
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: feeling bad about watching a live chicken get eaten the

925
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: whole by a cow, if that sounds like something that

926
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: would upset you, don't check out this video. But if

927
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: you're interested, look at it. It just yeah, it's just

928
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: a chicken wanders up in front of the cow, and

929
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: the cow just bites it and eats its whole body.

930
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: Oh man, well, you know this, this brings a few

931
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: thoughts to mind. First of all, in terms of relatives

932
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: of the cow that eat meat. I mean, now you

933
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: can certainly point you know, not directly, but by know

934
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: if a few degrees removed to carnivorous whales. Yes, that

935
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: is interesting, And actually I wish I'd looked this up.

936
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if the ancestors of whales. Of course,

937
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating things about whale biology is

938
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: that we now know that whales evolved from a creature

939
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: that once dwelt on land. So the the ancestors of

940
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: whales going way back were land dwelling tetrapod mammals, four

941
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: footed mammals that walked around on the earth. And we

942
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: know that over millions of years they gradually adapted and

943
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: evolved to a sea based existence. And I don't know

944
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: if their ancestors on land were carnivorous or not, or

945
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,439
Speaker 1: if they transitioned to eating meat once they became full

946
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: time dwellers of the sea. Well, this makes me think

947
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: also of horses. Because there are tales of horses eating

948
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: meat as well. UM. And I was not familed with

949
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: the story previously, but even shackledon UM they explore UH

950
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: and noted his his his pony socks preferring meat based

951
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: diet in in some in the you know, the harsher climates.

952
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: This would have been in nineteen o eight, I believe. Yeah,

953
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of these little stories here

954
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: and there, and you wonder if you should believe the

955
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: stories now. In the case of the cow in the

956
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: West Bengal village, there's at least video or there's video

957
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: of a cow eating a chicken that I think is

958
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 1: video of that cow. I can't be a hud certain,

959
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: but whatever cow it is, it's eating a chicken. I

960
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: don't think there's any special effects involved. But but but no,

961
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 1: apparently this is it's not limited to just these few

962
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: weird cases described in the extreme UH. For example, I

963
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: was reading a paper in the Wilson Journal of Ornithology

964
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: from two thousand five by Jamie L. Knack and Christine A.

965
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: Ribbic or Ribbits R I B i C. Called apparent

966
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: predation by cattle at grassland bird nests. The authors here

967
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: were documenting pastures in southwestern Wisconsin during the years two

968
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: thousand to two thousand one which were used for cattle grazing.

969
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: So there's video documentation of what's going on in these pastures,

970
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: and uh, it was noticed there was something odd that

971
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: was noticed about this video. Cattle appeared to be mostly

972
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: grazing but also occasionally quote behaving as a vian predators,

973
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: removing nestlings and eggs from three active ground nests. So

974
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: with video documentation, they showed that cattle were removing eggs

975
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: and baby birds from bird nests that were on the

976
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: ground or at ground level and probably eating them. A

977
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: couple of the nests belonged to the savannah sparrow past

978
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: circulus sandwich insists that is its name. Uh. And in

979
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: one of these savannah sparrow nests, they removed three of

980
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: the four eggs from the nest and they damaged the

981
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: fourth egg. In the other savannah sparrow nest, they removed

982
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: all three of the nestlings. So these were baby birds,

983
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: they were already hatched there they took them out of

984
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 1: the nest. There was another nest that belonged to the

985
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: eastern meadow lark, which is Sternella magna, and the cattle

986
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: apparently took all four nestlings out of this nest uh

987
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: the author's right quote. We found only two of the

988
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: three missing eggs intact and one of seven missing nestlings

989
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: dead near two of the nests. Cows may have eaten

990
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: the egg and nestlings we were unable to account for. Alternatively,

991
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: the egg and nestlings may have been scavenged by predators

992
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: or removed from the area by the adult birds. Without

993
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: videotaped documentation, we would have attributed nest failure to traditional

994
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: predators and cattle would not have been implicated. We may

995
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: be underestimating the impact of cattle on ground nests by

996
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: not considering cattle as potential predators. This is almost like

997
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: you're wondering, you know, you find like your window broken

998
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: and several items missing from your house, and you assume

999
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: it is a burglar until the I don't know, until

1000
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: the can't security camera footage reveals it was your house cat. Yeah,

1001
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: I mean that the cow. They're out there in the field.

1002
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: They're easy to take for granted. UM. I also love

1003
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: how this feels very much like something from Gary Larson

1004
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: Far Side cartoons. This is exactly what his cows would

1005
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: be up to. They got out their cow tools and

1006
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: they went to town on the nests. Um, so what

1007
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: do we make of this? Well? I was reading about

1008
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: this on a blog post by the British paleo zoologist

1009
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: Darren Nice. He's got a blog called tetrapod Zoology. It's

1010
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: a very good blog and Nice makes the following points.

1011
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: First of all, a lot of animals that we understand

1012
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: as strict herbivores are just not really that strict. Uh.

1013
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: You know, they are primarily herbivores, but there are certain

1014
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: scenarios where eating of other animals is quote absolutely deliberate

1015
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: and likely motivated by a need for calcium. This brings

1016
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: us back to the squirrels, right. This came up in

1017
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: some of our research about squirrels gnawing on the bones

1018
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:58,479
Speaker 1: of other animals. A a leading hypothesis to explain why

1019
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: something that is most stilly herbivorous would sometimes need to

1020
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: like eat a bird skull or something, and the ideas

1021
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: that there are certain mineral deficiencies that can lead to it,

1022
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: primarily calcium, but deer and other hoofed animals in particular

1023
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: have frequently been observed eating the antlers and bones of

1024
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: other dead animals. Red deer or service a lap as

1025
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: sometimes eat seabirds, but Nice reports that they sometimes appear

1026
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: to intentionally avoid eating the flesh of the birds, sort

1027
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: of separating out the bones and just eating those bones.

1028
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: He also mentions the study that I just talked about

1029
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: where videotape caught domestic cattle raiding ground level bird nests

1030
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: and apparently eating the birds, eating the chicks and the eggs,

1031
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: and Nice says quote this behavior is likely opportunistic, but

1032
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: may well be common and widespread. It is difficult to

1033
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: document since it mostly occurs at night and no evidence remains.

1034
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: I guess unless you're just randomly picking through cow feecs

1035
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: to see if there are bird bones in it, and

1036
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: then there are just a bunch of other examples. It

1037
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: often appears to be opportunistic. A cow is not going

1038
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: to chase down a human and eat it, but small

1039
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: defenseless animals they might just sort of be in the

1040
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: why not zone. Now, there are a few other reasons

1041
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: that animals we think of as strict herbivores might sometimes

1042
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: eat meat. Nice points out to study from two thousand

1043
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: by B. B. And Griffiths that documented how cattle drinking

1044
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: from water sources often accidentally ingest lots of water dwelling life,

1045
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: say tadpoles, So they are eating the tadpoles, but it

1046
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be on purpose. They're just sort of

1047
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: like getting sucked into the mouth in the same way.

1048
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: I think probably grazing herbivores end up eating a lot

1049
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: of insects without meaning to. I think a lot of

1050
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: carnivory by herbivores is probably just a result of not

1051
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: being super picky or careful while eating plants or drinking water.

1052
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: So one option is that some herbvores deliberately eat other

1053
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: animals to make up for a mineral deficiency. Another option

1054
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: is it's just accidental. But then Nice goes on to

1055
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: say quote, but as shown by the studies cited below,

1056
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: bird eating in bovids and deer may actually just be

1057
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: a fairly normal bit of behavior that we're only beginning

1058
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: to document. I also think that individuals of herbivorous species

1059
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: sometimes learn quote accidentally that they can kill and eat

1060
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: other animals and then take to this habit as and

1061
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: when the opportunity arises. That is, because they can not

1062
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: because they need to. In fact, I'd go as far

1063
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: as saying that animals and other organisms likely do a

1064
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: lot of things simply because they can not because their

1065
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: anatomy or physiology is is specifically suited to that activity.

1066
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: So there seems to be quite possibly a role for

1067
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, almost like skin ay and

1068
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 1: kind of adaptation. Right, if you just happen to eat

1069
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: an animal one time and it works out just fine

1070
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: for you, you might well learn that like, oh, you know,

1071
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: this is a this is a beneficial activity I never

1072
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: thought of doing before, But I can just keep repeating

1073
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: it if it seems to yield a benefit. And I

1074
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: think sometimes when we consider ideas like being a herbivore

1075
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 1: or a carnivore, I think the metabolic bottleneck is is

1076
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: not nearly as likely to rule out meat as it

1077
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: is to rule out tough, fibrous, or chemically hostile plant matter.

1078
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, what what you need to have a really

1079
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: specialized digestive system to digest. I would think it's probably

1080
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: more likely to be plants than to be meat. Animal

1081
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: flesh is relatively energy rich and easy to digest. Yeah,

1082
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: I mean we certainly see that in in uh animals

1083
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: like the panda, which I would have adapted over time

1084
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: from this um more very diet to a very particular

1085
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: herbivorous diet. Yeah, exactly. So you know, obviously different animals

1086
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: have differently specialized digestive systems. Those are shaped by evolution

1087
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: like everything else. But without being sure, I'd imagine it's

1088
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: probably easier for more herbivores to get down on some

1089
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: available meat than it would be for carnivores to try

1090
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: to survive on leaves. Hm. That's interesting, But this I

1091
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: don't know. This is one of those many things where

1092
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: you start to wonder about what undocumented observations could have

1093
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: occurred in the ancient world. You know, if somebody suddenly

1094
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: had a cow like law that starts eating chickens, or

1095
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: somebody has a bull that starts eating I don't know,

1096
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 1: whatever kind of meat you give to it, could that

1097
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: give rise to the idea that that, well, maybe there's

1098
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: some kind of like hidden monstrous nature that is easy

1099
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: to unlock when you starve a bull and make meat.

1100
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: It's only opportunity to get calories. Huh. Well, you know,

1101
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: I'm not as well read on on this episode, but

1102
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: the minotaur would not be the only Greek mythological um

1103
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: herbivore to eat meat, specifically the meat of humans. Because

1104
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: you also have the mayors of Diomades, the man eating

1105
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 1: herd of horses that were one of the labors of Hercules. Right,

1106
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: he had to corral them or something, right, Uh yeah,

1107
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: and uh and I if I remember correctly, Like they're

1108
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: it's it's sometimes implied like this is part of their

1109
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: magical nature that they eat humans, but other times it's

1110
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: like it's the ideas they've been conditioned to do so

1111
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: because this is the way their master treats them. Yeah,

1112
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: that they feed unsuspecting guests on the island to these

1113
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: man eating horses. I mean, I would be surprised. Again,

1114
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would be surprised if a

1115
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: if a bovine could live entirely on meat. It does

1116
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: have a ruminant digestive system that is in many ways

1117
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: specialized to eating tough plant matter. But but yeah, I

1118
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, you could probably get by feeding

1119
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: feeding a well adapted bull or cow kinds of strange

1120
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: things if you give it an acquired taste. So uh

1121
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: so it's possible something like this lies behind the horror

1122
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: of the Minotaur. Yeah, if Ernest Shackleton gives you, um

1123
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: some feed with some some meat added to it, you

1124
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,919
Speaker 1: want seconds. Well, I think we're gonna have to wrap

1125
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: it up for part one here, but there is so

1126
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: much more fun minute our stuff to talk about. We

1127
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: need to talk about my knowing crete, We've got to

1128
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: talk about other weird scientific interpretations of the origin of

1129
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: the minotaur legend. I'm I'm so excited for part two.

1130
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: I can't wait. Oh and by the way, we originally

1131
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: intended for part two of our Minotaur series to come

1132
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:36,479
Speaker 1: out this following Thursday. Due to some scheduling issues, we're

1133
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: going to actually have to air Part two the next Tuesday,

1134
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: so it'll be a week out from this episode, so

1135
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: you have an extra week there to be lost in

1136
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: the maze. Since we're talking about myths uh and the monsters.

1137
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: First of all, we have other episodes in the vault

1138
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: dealing with these, such as the Medusa episodes. We have

1139
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: episodes that deal with data lists UH in more detail.

1140
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: But also if you go to stuff to Blow your

1141
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: dot com, that will shoot you over to our iHeart

1142
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,439
Speaker 1: page and if you look over to the right there

1143
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: you'll see some show links and you'll see something that

1144
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: says store. Click on that, see I'm guiding you through

1145
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: the labyrinth here. Click on that and you will go

1146
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: to our t public store and here you'll find we

1147
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: actually have some monstrous shirts available. We have, of course,

1148
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: the all Hail the Great basiliska shirt uh that relates

1149
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: to a monster episode. We have two different monstrous squirrel episodes,

1150
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,479
Speaker 1: one with a squirrel gnawing on a bone with death

1151
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: in its eyes. And then we have the Skug King

1152
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: of Rats shirt, and uh it I am I am

1153
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: to understand that there will soon be an additional Medusa

1154
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: shirt added that says petrifying gays with a with an

1155
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: illustration that my son created, uh of so it's like

1156
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: it's drawn by an eight year old and eight year

1157
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: old's uh dedicated idea of what the Medusa looks like.

1158
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: Lest it be forgotten, your son was also the origin

1159
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: of the phrase scug King of Rats, which I think

1160
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 1: might be my favorite shirt in our store. I love

1161
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: my Skug King of Rat's shirt. Yeah, he still wears

1162
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: he's wearing this the other day. Um, that's why he

1163
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: is a head of marketing. Well deserved promotion. Now wherever

1164
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: you get our podcast. We do just ask that you rate,

1165
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: review and subscribe, especially if those are positive ratings. Positive

1166
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: reviews um then you then you should do so. That's

1167
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: a way you can help us out huge thanks as

1168
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

1169
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1170
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

1171
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

1172
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: can email us at contact and Stuff to Blow your

1173
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is production

1174
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1175
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening

1176
01:05:54,520 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Point to four point four pop

1177
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 1: part fo