1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man, the myth, 4 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: the legend, our very own Willy Wonka level super producer, 5 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. 6 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Hello, Hello, Hello. The enthusiasm is killing me. 7 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: Max. They call me Ben Bullen, our brother in arms, 8 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: our brother and podcast crime Noel is on an adventure, 9 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: but will be returning soon. In the meantime, Ridiculous Historians, 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: we have something incredibly special for you today. As you 11 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: may recall from some earlier episodes, we have long been 12 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: fascinated and in no small way disturbed by the life 13 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and times of the legendary author Roald Dall. He has 14 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: written some of the most popular children's books in all 15 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: of Western canon. Excuse me. He was a strident anti semi. 16 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: He's a fighter ace, he was a legitimate spy. We 17 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: are not the only people who share this obsession with 18 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: the larger than life character. Today, folks, we are thrilled 19 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: to be joined with none other than the best selling writer, producer, podcaster, 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: the founder of Parallax, none other than Aaron Tracy, also 21 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: the creator of the new hit podcast The Secret World 22 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: of rold dng Eric, thank you so much for coming 23 00:01:59,000 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: on the show man. 24 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me. I appreciate the enthusiasm of 25 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: that intro. I hope I can live up to it. 26 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: Well, we hope that we can live up to your accolades, 27 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: because in our research for this now, I know it 28 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: can always be maybe a little bit embarrassing. So we're 29 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: not going to fan boy too much. But you have 30 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: quite a pro You're quite prolific. You have a ton 31 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: of work under your belts. We're going to talk about 32 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: some of your additional work as well. And I have 33 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: to admit, when I'm looking through your CV and your 34 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: bona fides, I thought, how does this guy do so 35 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: much stuff? And then I learned you also lecture at Yale. 36 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah, I've been teaching at Yale for a while. 37 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: I don't know. 38 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: I mean, if you don't have a real job, like 39 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: I don't have a real job, right my job is 40 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 3: to sit around and write all day. You can get 41 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: a lot of writing done. I mean, it adds up 42 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: over time, so it definitely does not feel like a 43 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: lot to me. But you're sweet to say that I've 44 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 3: got a lot done. 45 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, well, one of the one of the things 46 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: that we've got to get right into it, man. But 47 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that amazes me so much about 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: your latest project is the depth of research, right, the thoroughness, 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: the objectivity. It's really like it's a cinematic audio documentary. 50 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: And I've got to ask, given all your previous work 51 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: and the amount of projects that you've done in the past, 52 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: across multiple genres, what drew you to Roll Dall in particular, 53 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: out of all the people that you could have done 54 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: a deep dive on. 55 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: I love writing true stories. I love writing about interesting 56 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: historical figures. I've written. I wrote a TV show about 57 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: Audrey Hepburn in the sixties. I wrote a show about Jagger. 58 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: Roll Dall is one of those figures kind of like 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: Hepburn and Jagger Hoover, who has, you know, a really 60 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: important place in the public consciousness. Like everybody knows him, 61 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 3: a lot of people have read him to go even further. 62 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 3: For a lot of people, he shaped their childhoods. But 63 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: nobody knows anything about the guy. I mean, he had 64 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: such a noisy life and so as I started researching 65 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 3: him and discovered all of these really strange chapters of 66 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: his life that I didn't know about. I just became 67 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 3: I became totally obsessed. I mean, the guy is most 68 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 3: famous for writing children's stories. Of course, he didn't start 69 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: writing them until his late forties, so he had all 70 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 3: these different lives before then, which all sort of informed 71 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 3: his later books. 72 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was That was something I learned from you, 73 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: the idea of that sudden switch that shape in a 74 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: profession or vocation over time. And I can't wait to 75 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: get into it. One question that all of our audience 76 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: members are going to have for you directly, Aaron, is 77 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: do you have a favorite role doll book? 78 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? I love Matilda. 79 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 3: I probably came into this, came into the project with 80 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: Charlie and Chocolate Factory being my favorite. I love the 81 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one Gene Wilder movie. I used to, you know, 82 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 3: watch on VHS as a kid, and I still do 83 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: love that book. But Matilda rereading it for this project. 84 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: It's just such a good story. He's so good writing her. 85 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 3: It's such a sweet story. I mean, there's the sort 86 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 3: of typical doll gruesomeness that exists in all of his books, 87 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 3: of course, but I just I just think it's a 88 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 3: It's such a winner. 89 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: I love the point you're making about the gruesomeness, how 90 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: there seems to be a subtle thread of darkness that 91 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: a lot of kids don't necessarily clock on their first read. 92 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: It reminds me of another one of his books, not 93 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: not his most famous, but a book called George's Marvelous Medicine, 94 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: which is I would argue, a quintessential example of that 95 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: darkness through what is ostensibly whimsical work. I mean, folks, 96 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: if you haven't read it, go to your local bookstore 97 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: and get ready for a weird afternoon. It's a short story, 98 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: or it's a you know, it's a short work. It 99 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: is literally about an eight year old boy who tries 100 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: to kill his grandmother and accidentally makes her a giant. 101 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: Which I reread that one as as an adult several 102 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: years back, and I was kind of shocked that my 103 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: parents allowed me to have a copy of that. You know, 104 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: how do you how do you feel about because your father, 105 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: how do you feel about your kids reading role Doll? 106 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm a little bit torn. On the podcast, 107 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: I bring on a bunch of incredibly smart people to 108 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: have a discussion about whether or not it's okay to 109 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: allow kids, impressionable kids to read work by someone that 110 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: we now know is a bigot, is an anti semi. 111 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: I think it's a complicated thing. I can't really locate 112 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: the bigotry or the anti semitism on the page. I 113 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 3: think if I could, there'd be no question. Like I 114 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: just absolutely would not give him to my kids because 115 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: I can't. And some people say that they can see 116 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 3: some antisemitic tropes in the Witches. I'm not sure I 117 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: agree with that. But because I can't see it on 118 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: the page, is it hypocritical for me to sort of 119 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: deprive my kids of Doll's work when I don't deprive 120 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 3: myself of a lot of filmmakers and novelists who we 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: now know were total monsters. It's something I'm grappling with. 122 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: And I'll also say, I mean, you asked me my 123 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: favorite book, you know, I immediately went to the children's 124 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: books Charlie and Chocolate Factory in Matilda. But Dahl also 125 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: wrote a ton of stuff for adults. He wrote a 126 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: novel called My Uncle Oswald, which is you know, hard 127 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: r rated. He wrote a bunch of short stories for 128 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: places like Playboy. He wrote lots of short stories for 129 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: The New Yorker. One of my favorites of his is 130 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: the Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar, which was adapted by 131 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: Netflix recently, which is absolutely for adults. So, you know, 132 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: the guy absolutely wrote things that even if you're you're 133 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: not a parent, or you're looking for, you know, something 134 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 3: that you can just enjoy on your own. Uh, you 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: know you can find something in Doll. 136 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. That's that's amazing because I love the point you've 137 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: made in in the podcast and in several other interviews 138 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,359 Speaker 1: where where you kind of establish that for the majority 139 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: of people who are aware of Roald Dahl, it's really 140 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: just two words on the cover of one of their 141 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: favorite childhood books. Right, we don't know very much about 142 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: the creator himself, and I have to applaud you for 143 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: not shying away from some of that deeply, you know, personally, 144 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: I believe deeply and profoundly disturbing stuff, those aspects of 145 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: his character that are inseparable from his identity as a 146 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: person and a writer. I also, on the point of writing, 147 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: I was astonished to learn from your research that Roald 148 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: Dahl had this entire other life as a screenwriter. Yeah. 149 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: I mean I think like you, I'm a big movie 150 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 3: buff and fascinated by Hollywood in the sixties and seventies 151 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: and earlier, and so I didn't I didn't know this either. 152 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: I mean Dolluh. After his time in the war, Dall 153 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 3: went out to Los Angeles. He was flown out by 154 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: Walt Disney himself and put up at a at a 155 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: fancy Beverly Hills hotel and given a driver and given 156 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 3: a place to stay, all by Walt Disney because Disney 157 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 3: loved this story that Doll had written, called The Gremlins. 158 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: It was one of Doll's first stories, and it was 159 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: and people don't really read it today. It's sort of 160 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: it feels kind of like a you know, the reason 161 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 3: Doll wrote it is it's a bit of propaganda, uh, 162 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: to show American and British forces working together against Germany. 163 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: And it's it's very creative. 164 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 3: It has nothing whatsoever to do, by the way, with 165 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 3: the Steven Spielberg produced classic The Grimlins. 166 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: He knew. 167 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: That was my first question too when I when I 168 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 3: first stumbled on it. But Disney brought Doll out to 169 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: Los Angeles because he wanted to turn the Gremlins into 170 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 3: a movie. And this is when Disney was absolutely on top. 171 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: I mean, Disney had just come off snow White and 172 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: Dumbo and Bambi and so many of his classics. So 173 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: here's Doll at twenty six years old, being feted by you, 174 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 3: unquestionably the king of Hollywood. And it didn't quite work 175 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 3: out for Doll. Disney sort of started a writer's room. 176 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 3: He brought in animators, and he brought in a director 177 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: and all these different people and started a writer's room 178 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: with Doll. But Dall was just not someone at least 179 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 3: at twenty six, but he could certainly argue as he 180 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 3: got older too. He was not someone who wanted to collaborate. 181 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: He had a very personal vision. He wanted to control 182 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: the work. And so eventually Disney dropped the project and 183 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: Doll wasn't able to get it set up anywhere else. 184 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: But Doll still had the bug. He wanted to make movies, 185 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: so he continued to write. He wasn't always living in Hollywood, 186 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 3: but he went back to New York. He made lots 187 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: of trips to Los Angeles and he just wrote screenplay 188 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: after screenplay. Many of them just not working. He had 189 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 3: won with the director Robert Altman called Oh Death, where 190 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: is Thy Stingle Ling a Ling, which is a yeah, 191 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 3: it's a crazy title, but it came closest to actually 192 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: getting made to becoming Doll's first credit. And they started 193 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: filming in fact, and Gregory Peck was in the lead role, 194 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: but as sometimes happens, the head of the studio looked 195 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: at the dailies and just said this is not working 196 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 3: and shut down production. And so after all that, it 197 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: was another sort of failed credit for Doll, but he 198 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: didn't give up and he kept working and eventually he 199 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: found the perfect vehicle for himself, which is the fourth 200 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: James Bond movie. Dall was a spy for I six, 201 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: which we can talk about, and so yeah, that James 202 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: Bond movie was very much informed by his experiences in Washington. 203 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: As we're moving through this, I would like, if it's 204 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: okay with you, Aaron, to emulate some of the formula 205 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: of your podcast, because one thing you do that I 206 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: think is superb is avoiding the straight up linear recounting 207 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: of born such and such, time lives and dies. And 208 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: I love how how you're jumping around in time and 209 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: theme in Oh thank you. 210 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 3: Who needs another cradle to the grave? Right, Like, what's 211 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 3: more boring that? I was just watching a documentary the 212 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: other day that that was just Cradles the Grave, and 213 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, there's even when you have a fantastic story, 214 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: there's just no surprises. 215 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's I think that that is a great 216 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: advantage in the structure of your creation here, because it 217 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: keeps going to sort of hook after hook with plot 218 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: twist after plot twist, and you have quite a well 219 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: established past and present as a screenwriter yourself now, Max 220 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: and Noel and yours truly here we are not screenwriters 221 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: by trade, but we know a lot of people in 222 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: the business, and it just seems incredibly challenging, right to 223 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: have to have so many projects that end up for 224 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: variables beyond our control, kind of languishing, even if it's 225 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: a really great story. I'm saying this mainly to ask 226 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: if Doll's experience in Hollywood when he was just twenty 227 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: six or so, is that something that is common to 228 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: a lot of screenwriters or did he get did he 229 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: get the especially dirty end of the stick there? 230 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: No, it's incredibly common. My favorite quote about Hollywood is 231 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 3: by the Great New Yorker critic Pauline Kale. She said, 232 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,239 Speaker 3: it's the only place where you can die of encouragement, 233 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: and that's just so true. People go out there, everybody 234 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: tells you how talented you are, Everybody wants to meet 235 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: with you, and it's like your next project is going 236 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: to go forward, and you know this is a done deal, 237 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: and this movie star is super interested. And there's something 238 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: obviously kind of nice about a town that is that 239 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: optimistic and hopeful. But it's incredibly hard when you're struggling 240 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: in your career and you keep getting your hopes up 241 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: and then they just get dashed. So this happens all 242 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: the time. And I think what's most interesting about dol 243 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: is that many of his heroes, the novelists who he 244 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 3: was trying to emulate, did the exact same thing. They 245 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: went to Hollywood and they struggled and they completely fell apart. 246 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 3: So they're these great stories about people like f Scott Fitzgerald, 247 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: who Dahl loved, the great novelist who actually loved movies, 248 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 3: Unlike some of the other novels who went out there 249 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: for the money. F Scott Fitzgerald loved movies and just 250 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: couldn't make it happen. He just screenwriting didn't come naturally 251 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: to him. He started drinking more and more. He ended 252 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: up really not getting his name on scripts that he, 253 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,359 Speaker 3: you know, put work into, because he was completely rewritten 254 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: over and over again, and he eventually drank himself to death. 255 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: And the same thing is true of, you know, the 256 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: sort of the failures of other great novelists. Aldis Huxley 257 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: had a lot of trouble, Faulkner went out there and 258 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: had a lot of trouble. You could go on and on, 259 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: and it's it's easy to imagine that Doll could have 260 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: sort of fallen into the same hole after all the 261 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: years of struggle that he had trying to break into Hollywood, 262 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 3: but he refused. He had something inside of him that 263 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: allowed him to keep going and push past all the 264 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: failures and all the disappointments, which eventually led to the 265 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: James Bond screenplay, and then finding his perfect spiritual brother 266 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: in Hollywood, who is Alfred Hitchcock. They're just so similar 267 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: in tone and sensibility, and Dall eventually wrote a bunch 268 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: of stories for Hitchcock that Hitchcock turned into episodes of 269 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 3: his TV show. 270 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: Oh Wow, that's fascinating because you know, we're often tempted 271 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: in the modern era to think of historical figures as 272 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: existing somehow separate from the world of which they live. 273 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's always surprising to learn that folks like 274 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: Alfred Hitchcock and Rule Doll not just got along, but 275 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: actually work together. That's that's something that I did not clock. 276 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: At all. 277 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Doll has got to be I think 278 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 3: it's an extraordinary thing. He's got to be the only 279 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: guy who's ever written for both Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, 280 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: I mean, two opposite dudes. But that's that's all. He 281 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: had an incredibly wide range, and Hitchcock was just so 282 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 3: just so natural to everything that that worked about Doll, 283 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: all the gruesomeness, all the darkness, all the surprising twist endings, 284 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 3: it all was was sort of perfect for Hitchcock, and 285 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: Hitchcock just fell in love with his work. 286 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: And they they share a similar kind of gallows. 287 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: Humor, you know, absolutely not in a wink. 288 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: And there's there's something we should also get back to, 289 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: just a thread in while we're talking about his time 290 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: in Hollywood and working in these established systems that can 291 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: be you know, quite brutal at times. I remember you 292 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: mentioned You and several other sources have mentioned a specific 293 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: issue he had about control in general, not just his 294 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: scripts in Hollywood, but his published works. He apparently mandated 295 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: that publishers treat his material as sacro sanct something like 296 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: don't even touch a comma or you'll get the crocodile, 297 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: whatever that means. Right. This leads us to a fairly 298 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: recent controversy that might be unfamiliar to some people. After 299 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: Doll passed away, his publisher, Puffin Books in twenty twenty three, 300 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: started making a lot of changes to his work, Like 301 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: I think censorship based on sensitivity readers who said, hey, 302 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: this is you know, discriminatory, this is racist, this is insensitive, 303 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: so on and so forth, or offensive just straight up defensive. 304 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: I think we don't be interested in your your take 305 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: on that. Did Puffin do the right thing? Or should 306 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: they have left it as is? 307 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? 308 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: I certainly come down on the side of hating censorship, right, 309 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: Puffin should not have done this. Uh. And just to 310 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 3: be sort of clear about what they were doing, they 311 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 3: were they were removing words like fat and ugly. There 312 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 3: were even instances where they took out the words black 313 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: and white, regardless of what contexts they were in, because 314 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: you're right, they were they were being overly sensitive. We 315 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 3: were going through this this period in culture where everyone 316 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 3: was being just incredibly sensitive, and so lots of other 317 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 3: writers came to you know, doll. Doll of course had 318 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 3: had passed away, but a lot of writers came to 319 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: his defense and said, no, no, no, you cannot touch 320 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: the work. He would not have wanted these changes. We 321 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: see this a lot with with writers and filmmakers too. 322 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I think of someone like George Lucas going 323 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 3: back in and changing things that happened in Star Wars 324 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: to sort of, you know, work with with modern day sensibilities, 325 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: and it's kind of always a bad idea. I think 326 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: the much better solution is to keep the work as is, 327 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 3: but try to provide context, right, try to have a 328 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 3: conversation with people about why some of these words might 329 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: be triggering or offensive. But just going in and taking 330 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: out the word fat or changing the word ugly to 331 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: something else, it just it undermines the work. 332 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think as as a writer as well, 333 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm severely tempted to to come down on the same 334 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: side as you or be on the same page there, 335 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: because when we hear things like a censorship controversy, we 336 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: assume it may be similar to you know, the old 337 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: Agatha Christie use of racial epithets or something very very 338 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: serious stuff. But that and ugly seems like they might 339 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: be fighting the wrong battle, you know what I mean. 340 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 3: And you bring up a good point. I mean, I 341 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: think that's one of the reasons that this issue, which 342 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 3: I explore on the podcast, is just so so media 343 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: and so interesting because the Agatha Christie story that you 344 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: brought up, she has a racial epithet in her title, 345 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: and I do think that it was a good idea 346 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: to get rid of that. They did that after her death, 347 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: and so she wasn't able to approve it. But if 348 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: they had not done that, if her state had not 349 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 3: done that, that book would absolutely be unreadable. You couldn't 350 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: sell it, you couldn't put it on shelves, which I 351 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: you know, agree with, we should not be selling it 352 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: with that title. And getting rid of the title changing 353 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: it does allow that extraordinary story to be you know, 354 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 3: I think it's still her most popular story. It allows 355 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: people to continue reading it, which is a great thing. 356 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well said well, said, and uh with that, 357 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: with that mind, I have a little bit of an 358 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: anecdote to share with you that may be familiar to 359 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: a lot of our audience members. 360 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 4: And before we do that, Ben, can I jump in 361 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: with a with a weird fact I got for us, 362 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 4: Aaron h you said that that Doll might have been 363 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 4: the only person you know of that wrote for Disney 364 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 4: and Hitchcock, which I found somebody else is mister four 365 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 4: to fifty one himself, Ray Bradberry with Walt Disney and 366 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 4: also wrote for Hitchcock Presents. It's funny because I used 367 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 4: the Google AI to help me, like start with the bread. 368 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 4: And they also said Robers Yeah exactly. Yeah, well, I 369 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 4: said Robert Stevenson, which is funny because that's not true. 370 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 4: Robert Stevenson and worked with Disney and a guy named 371 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 4: Robert Stevens worked with Hitchcock. But to the best of 372 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 4: my knowledge, or at least Google Ais knowledge, only Ray 373 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 4: bat Bradberry can join Doll in that distinction. 374 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: Wow, right, cool, that's I mean, that's a good company. 375 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh, Max, I think you've earned it. 376 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 2: Max. 377 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: With the facts. 378 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 3: That sneaking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge, it's 379 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: just for you right now. 380 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: Here with the fact. 381 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: We have a sal que that plays the part where 382 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: I said, okay, don't worry, we have a sod que. 383 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: So uh, this is okay. So here's here's this, uh 384 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: anecdote that may be familiar to a lot of us. 385 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: We have we have co workers who are never stressed 386 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: about anything really uh. And it's because they were actual 387 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: veterans and saw war and saw colmback and so after 388 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: you've lived through events like that, you're a lot less 389 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: likely to worry too much about sending an email late. Right, 390 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: You've got a perspective, And I'm wondering. I'm wondering if 391 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: Doll's earlier experiences informed his perspective and his creative approach 392 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: to writing, which is just you know, my long winded 393 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: way of saying, please share the spy story, just a 394 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: little bit of the spy so people can't wait to 395 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: hear this. 396 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I think, like all writers, his experiences growing 397 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: up and his formative experiences as a twenty something unquestionably 398 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: informed the writing. It just has to for anyone that's 399 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: not just writing sort of genre fiction or and completely 400 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 3: removed from themselves, and even people who who think they 401 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: are doing that. I think the life experiences always get 402 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: onto the page. So for doll, Yeah, his twenties and 403 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 3: his thirties, before he ever wrote for children, were really 404 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 3: about a search for identity. He was trying to figure 405 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: out who he was. He was trying to figure out 406 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 3: what kind of man he was, and I think you 407 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: could even argue he was trying to figure out what 408 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 3: it meant to be a man. In his part of 409 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 3: the century, he grew up without a father. His father 410 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: died when he was three, and so that was the 411 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: first sort of formative experience of his life. When he 412 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: was just three years old, his father and his sister 413 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: died within three weeks of each other. So just gruesome, 414 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 3: just so incredibly sad. And then he got older and 415 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 3: he became a businessman. That was his first sort of 416 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 3: attempt to figure out who he was. He worked for 417 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 3: Shell Oil and they send him to Africa, and so 418 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 3: it was this incredible adventure. But he sort of grew 419 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: tired of it after a little while, and so he 420 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 3: decided to volunteer for the RAF, the Air Force during 421 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: the war, and he flew some harrowing combat missions and 422 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 3: that was an incredible adventure for him, but he kept 423 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: getting shot down, including one time that was a really 424 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: devastating crash in the Libyan desert that he barely walked 425 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 3: away from. And so it's time to figure out what's next, 426 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 3: his next sort of search for identity, and the powers 427 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 3: that be noticed that he was incredibly tall. He was 428 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: six foot six, incredibly handsome and dashing, a great storyteller, 429 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: incredibly charming. So they had a job for him. They 430 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 3: decided he should go work for British intelligence, so they 431 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 3: sent him to DC, where he was ostensibly working for 432 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 3: the British embassy, but in reality he was recruited into 433 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 3: a group called the Irregulars, which is this group headed 434 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 3: up by William Stevenson, who's sort of a legendary figure 435 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 3: in spy circles. They worked out of thirty Rockefeller Center 436 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: in New York where Sorry Night Live is tape now, 437 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 3: which is a really strange place for you know, a 438 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 3: top secret spy organization, but that's where they were, and 439 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: they had agents in New York and d C. Doll 440 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 3: started off in DC, like I said, and he was 441 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 3: working as a spy doing whatever needed to be done. 442 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 3: This was a time before America got into the war, 443 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 3: and so Churchill and Britain they're in their darkest hour. 444 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: Things are going horribly of course in the war, and 445 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: they would do anything to get America to come to 446 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 3: their side. So they were using outside the box ideas 447 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 3: to try to get, you know, the America to come 448 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 3: to their aid. And so one of those ideas was 449 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: start the irregulars. And so what the irregulars were doing 450 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: were you know, a lot of propaganda, a lot of 451 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 3: sort of really strange ideas that you could imagine Doll 452 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 3: and his fellow twenty somethings coming up with out at 453 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 3: a bar, you know, and George Shannon late at night, 454 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: like one of them was, they came up with this 455 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: idea to hire a psychic named Louis de Wall to 456 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: go around the country and tell everyone that he has, 457 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: you know, looked at the stars and the third Reich 458 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: he is determined is going to fall. And so it 459 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: made Americans feel more comfortable about getting into the war 460 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 3: because it was written in the stars that they were 461 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 3: going to win. 462 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: Stuff like that. 463 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: And then sort of the most salacious, you know, arguably 464 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 3: most interesting thing that Dahl did for the regulars was 465 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: he was tasked with seducing the wives of powerful Americans 466 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: who were not yet on the Allied side. So one 467 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 3: of them was the wife of Henry Lose. Henry LuSE 468 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: was the most powerful man in media. He owned Time magazine, 469 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: and Life Magazine and Sports Illustrated, on and on, and 470 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 3: these magazines were printing a lot of anti British stuff, 471 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 3: which Churchill sort of could not allow because it was 472 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: not helping their cause of getting the Americans into the war, 473 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: and they couldn't really get through to Henry Loose. But 474 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 3: his wife was a different story. His wife was a 475 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 3: woman named Claire Booth Loose, which I love that sort 476 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: of whimsical name. It sounds like a name that Doll invented. 477 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 3: And she was incredibly formidable and influential in her own right. 478 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: Besides being married to Henry, she was also a Broadway playwright. 479 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: She wrote a play called The Women, which was adapted 480 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: twice for the movies. She was a war correspondent for 481 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 3: a Vanity Fair, and she worked for other magazines. She 482 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 3: was a great journalist. And then she ran for Congress 483 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: and won and became one of the few women in Congress. 484 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: And this is who Doll targeted, and Doll was successful. 485 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: They had a long term affair, with Doll's goal being 486 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: to sort of turn down the anti British rhetoric. 487 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: Wow, it's okay, So that it itself already already feels 488 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: like a subplot in an amazing film, right startup spycraft 489 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: with the twenty year olds who who come up with 490 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: their best ideas three beers in or somebody. 491 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 3: I haven't even told you who was in this group. 492 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 3: I mean it was William Stephens said had an incredible 493 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: eye for talent, so he had Rolled Doll. He also 494 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: had Ian Fleming, who would go on to create James Bond. 495 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: He had David Ogilvie, who had become the father of 496 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: modern advertising and the inspiration for Don Draper. He had 497 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 3: Noel Coward, the great playwright. So you got to picture 498 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 3: Noel Coward, Roll Doll, James Bond, and Don Draper all 499 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: just like hanging out in DC in their mid twenties, 500 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: all just incredibly gorgeous and dash. 501 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: That's what it was like. 502 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm struck by the psychic pitch, because, yeah, I think 503 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: it would probably it feels like that something like that 504 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: might even work to a degree here in the modern day, 505 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, which is both astonishing and in 506 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: no small way kind of frightening. I've got to ask 507 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: you this though, erin so our spy mechanism, right, the 508 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: quote unquote juiciest part of this part of his noisy life, 509 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: And again I love that turn of phrase of yours. 510 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: Is him attempting to garner us support by seducing the 511 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: spouses of VIPs. Does that not seem like it could 512 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: backfire in a pretty powerful way, like if the affair 513 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: is exposed. 514 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you're You're absolutely right. It absolutely 515 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 3: could have. But Churchill's back was against the wall. I 516 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: mean is we've all seen the movies and listened to 517 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: the podcast and read the books like this was their 518 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 3: darkest hour. They were not going to survive the onslaught 519 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: by the Nazis, and so he was doing anything he 520 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 3: possibly could to try to get America into the war. 521 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 3: And so you're absolutely right that this was a gamble, 522 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: but luckily it's one that paid off. 523 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: Ah, folks, hold the phone, get your everlasting gob stoppers ready. 524 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: We made an audible call as we were having our 525 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: conversation with Aaron Tracy, the creator of the secret world 526 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: of Role Doll we realized this is a two barter 527 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: max because we just have so much more stuff we 528 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: want to. 529 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 4: Get to, right, I mean, this is just a great interview, 530 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 4: and you know, Aaron's is a fond of knowledge and 531 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 4: he's just so great telling the story that you know, 532 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 4: both you and me big role dollphans. So we can't 533 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 4: get enough of this stuff, especially the spy stuff. 534 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: I had to Yeah, I forget to ask you, what 535 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: what is your favorite rule doll book? Obviously you can 536 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: tell I love George's Marvelous Medicine. 537 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I actually looked up the list because 538 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 4: I have to remember all of them. There's so many on there. 539 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 4: I'm gonna go with the BFG Big Friendly Giant. I 540 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 4: love that one as a kid. That's one of that. 541 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 4: I had my dad read me multiple times because it 542 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 4: was just like, this one's great, but in so many 543 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 4: obviously James and the Giant Peach, the what is the 544 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 4: Glass Elevator one? Oh yeah, yeah, Second, Charlie that that 545 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 4: one's under underrated, under hit. 546 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: Yes, and and again Aaron and Max and I are 547 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: not joking about that. What did Aaron call it? That 548 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: somewhat gruesome nature? I called it a subtle darkness in 549 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: the works of Doll. With that mind, folks, we can 550 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: confirm to you that whatever age you are at, honestly 551 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: those books still slap. I'm just gonna say there a 552 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: lot of them are great on a reread, even as 553 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: an adult. Thank you for tuning in. Please check in 554 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: with us this coming Thursday when we will have part 555 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: two of the Secret World of World Doll with Aaron Tracy, 556 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: thanks to our super producer, none other than the Willy 557 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: Wonka podcasting mister Max Williams, and Max thanks to your 558 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: brother Alex Williams for composing the track. Noel will be 559 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: returning from his adventures very soon. In the meantime, you 560 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: know the score, my friend? Who else? Who else? Who 561 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: else do we think? 562 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 4: Let's see, Let's thank Christopher Haciotis of Eves Jeffcoat here 563 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 4: in spirit, the people over at Ridiculous Crime, They're amazing. 564 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 4: Check them out. 565 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: Aj Bahamas Jacobs. We were talking about him a little 566 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: bit off air. His ears might be tingling, Doctor Rachel 567 00:35:54,239 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: Big Spinach Lance and of course two point three out 568 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: of five reluctant acknowledgement not quite a thank you to 569 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: the one and only Max. 570 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: You got it. 571 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: You gotta give them the shout. 572 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 4: Out, oh the uh, the child getting sucked up the 573 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 4: tube or floating to the spinning ceiling. Fans of our podcast, 574 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 4: Jonathan Strickland. 575 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 2: Hey a A the Wizard. 576 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, folks, As as Noel always likes to say, 577 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: we'll see you next time. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 578 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 579 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.