1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to text Stuff, a production from my Heart Radio. 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio, 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: and I love all things tech, and it is time 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: for a tech Stuff classic episode. This episode is titled 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Say My Name. It published originally on September two, thousand thirteen. 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: I'm guessing this one's about Heisenberg. That's right. I'm going 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: purely by the title here. I have not gone back 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: to listen to this episode. I'm going to experience this 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: again with you guys. Obviously not for the first time. 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: I was there in but dude, I can't remember last Tuesday. 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: So let's sit back and listen to this classic episode. 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: Werner Heisenberg. Right, I'm just not sure about this topic. Heisenberg, Right, okay, 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: wall I think I have some notes on him too, 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: are you? This is he was born on December five, 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: nineteen o one. Yes, that one, the physicist. Yes, the 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: famous theoretical physicist. All right, well, all right, maybe I 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: won't get a geek out about breaking bad, but that's fine. 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: We can talk about Vernon Heisenberg. I like that your 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: German pronunciation is better than the lady with the last 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: name vocal bomb. That's pretty that's pretty great. Um So 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: born on December five, nineteen o one, in Verzberg. Uh 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, Heisenberg has played an incredibly important role in 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: the establishment that that's the foundations of what is quantum mechanics. Right. 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: If you've heard of something something called the uncertainty principle, 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: that is a k A. Heisenberg's u certain new principle, 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: that that is, he is the operative Heisenberg. In this 28 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: we will we will explain what that uncertainty principle is 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: in certain terms, but that will be towards the second 30 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: half of the podcast. First we wanted to kind of 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: talk about who he was, sort of his background. His 32 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: father was an expert in Middle and modern Greek languages. 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: That's a Dr. August Heisenberg. His mother was any wink Lin. 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: Winklin wink Lin was w there's no W sound in German. 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: It's um, yeah, so vs or fs and and w 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: s or vs. That's easy to remember, simple, all right, Yeah, 37 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: so yeah, he he um. It's funny because I understand 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: that his his own background in Greek. His father was 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: an expert in Greek. His own background in Greek meant 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: that when they got to the point where physicists were 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: starting to name theoretical and he would correct people's use 42 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: of Greek, saying things like, you cannot spell it this 43 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: way because that's not how it would be actually spelled 44 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: if such a thing existed in the Greek language. So 45 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: so he was, um, you know, helping us stay on 46 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: the rails as far as the use of Greek, right 47 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: while he was growing up. When he was twelve, that 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: is when Neil's Bore presents did his general theory of 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: of quantum existence. Yes, so Bore would be incredibly important 50 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: during Heisenberg's education. But Niels Bore also known for making 51 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: the Bore model of the atom. So that was the 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: model the atom that suggested that you had a central 53 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: nucleus and then electrons that were orbiting nucleus. Yeah, so 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: that's you know, anyone who's taken any any class in 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: chemistry or physics has seen the Boor model. It's still 56 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: one of those things that um usually is. It's part 57 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: of the history of the development of particle physics and 58 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. Right. We we know now that it's a 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: little bit um simplified Yeah. In fact, Heisenberg would go 60 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: on to be the one who right exactly right, Uh, 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: he was. While he was in high school, there was 62 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: a major event that played out across the entire world 63 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: and particularly in Europe. World War One. Yeah, World War 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: One happened between nineteen fourteen and nineteen eighteen. So of 65 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: Heisenberg's academic contemporaries, or not even contemporaries, some of his 66 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: mentors had actually served in World War One, various officers 67 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: in the military, right right. Um, Heisenberg himself had to 68 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: leave school, leave high school to go help harvest crops 69 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: in Bavaria at the time. And um, by by the 70 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: time he got back after the war, he was deeply 71 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: involved in youth groups like the New Boy Scouts. That 72 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: we're trying to rebuild the science and artistic culture in Germany. Right, 73 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: So keep in mind, like at this time in Germany, 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: things are really tumultuous. I mean, World War One was 75 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: already one of those events that that played upon certain 76 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: sentiments in Germany, and after the war was concluded, that 77 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: got even more messy because you had the rest of 78 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: the world, uh, you know, trying to deal with this 79 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: situation and make sure that it could not happen again. 80 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this was one of those wars that no 81 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: one really expected whatever happened. But as the idea was 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: that everyone would be building up their armies to a 83 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: point that anyone would be crazy to attack anyone else. 84 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, humans are crazy, y'all. So um, yeah, 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: we it was. It was one of those things where 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: where as in an attempt to prevent this from happening again, 87 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: there were a lot of reparations demanded against Germany. This 88 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: in turn ended up fueling a lot of resentment in 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: Germany and would eventually give the Nazi movement sort of 90 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: the kind of foothold. Yeah exactly, It gave them that 91 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: that that place to build some support, because you had 92 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: all these Germans who felt that that their lives had 93 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 1: been ruined as a result of the actions that followed 94 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: World War One. Now that plays a big role in 95 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: Heisenberg's life because this is also a time when physicists 96 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: are making incredible discoveries. We are learning more about the 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: quantum world, that that atomic scale world than ever before. 98 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: The instruments that were being made were becoming precise enough 99 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: for us to look at things on a level that 100 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: we never could have seen before. So there is a 101 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: figurative explosion in physics at this time and a lot 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: of and sometimes literal explosions. But a lot of the 103 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: physicists that were active at this time, particularly in Germany, 104 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: were of Jewish descent. Now, of course that would cause 105 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: play another important role once we talk about the rise 106 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: of the Nazi movement and the entry into World War two. 107 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: Obviously that's going to to really shake things up. But 108 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: before we get to that point, we talk more a 109 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: little about about Heisenberg's educational background. Once World War One 110 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: had concluded, he attended the Maximilian School at Munich and 111 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: then eventually the University of Munich. He originally went to 112 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: study math, but according to reports, a professor wouldn't let 113 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: him into an advanced seminar, and that's when he switched 114 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: to physics. And just imagine what the world would be 115 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: like without that, I mean, quantum physics, for example, might 116 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: have a very different approach, particularly when you start talking 117 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: about people like Schrodinger, and we will and maybe we'll 118 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: even mention his cat so uh. At the university, he 119 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: studied physics with professors like Arnold Johannes Wilhelm Sommerfeld, who 120 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: was a theoretical physicist. Uh he was a physicist who 121 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: would stay on teaching even during World War Two, so 122 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: he stayed in Germany and continued to teach. He did 123 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: get a little upset that the well more than a 124 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: little upset that his departments were being completely yet purged 125 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: of anyone who had any sort of Jewish background, whether 126 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: they self identified as Jewish or if they had maybe 127 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 1: an ancestor the three generations back who was Jewish. Sure. Also, 128 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: according to some reports, the Nazis considered the theoretical physics 129 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: as a field to be Jewish. Yes, yes, because there 130 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: were there were so many Jewish inkers who were the 131 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: leaders of theoretical physics that the Nazis looked down upon 132 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: the entire discipline as being something that was impure and 133 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: should be completely purged. And in fact, instead they wanted 134 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: to have Deutsche physique that's German physics as a study 135 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to theoretical physics, so that would also disrupt 136 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: the advances that could have happened during that time. Another 137 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: professor was Wilhelm Karl Ferner Otto Fritz Franvien, you're just 138 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: enjoying saying these names, aren't you? Will Helm Vien is 139 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: usually how we we say that, but yes, you're The 140 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: answer to that question is yes, I love. I love 141 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: saying German names. Uh. He was a physicist and he 142 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: focused on black body radiation and electromagnetics magnetism rather and 143 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: he passed away in n So he died before World 144 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: War two began. He died before the Nazis had really 145 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: taken control of Germany. Um there was Alfred Pringsheim who 146 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: was a professor of mathematics and had Jewish roots. During 147 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: the Nazi regime, he would see his entire fortune taken 148 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: from him. Everything he had inherited a huge fortune and 149 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: everything he owned was taken by the Nazis. He was 150 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: eventually forced to change his name to Alfred Israel Prinsheim 151 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: because of his Jewish ancestry. One wonderfully racists, you know, 152 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: the Nazis were not known for being subtle with the 153 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: way that they treated any one of Jewish heritage. And 154 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: then a fourth professor was Arthur Rosenthal, who had a 155 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: focus on geometry as well as dynamical systems, also had 156 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: Jewish roots. He would be forced from his position in 157 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six by the Nazis and would eventually immigrate 158 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: to the United States and nineteen nine and taught at 159 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: the University of Michigan, which has come up a lot 160 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: in our conversations recently because that's where Sid went to. 161 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: But he taught at the University of Michigan, then eventually 162 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: taught at the University of New Mexico and then later 163 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: at Purdue University. So these were the four professors who 164 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: really kind of sparked Heisenberg's fascination with physics and mathematics, 165 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: and this is founding in in those subjects exactly, so Somerfeld, Veen, Pringsheim, 166 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: and Rosenthal Uh. Then in nineteen two Heisenberg went to 167 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: Goodingen Goodingen as a University of Goodingen to study physics 168 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: under some more famous physicists, including Max Bourne, whose focus 169 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: was on quantum mechanics, particularly in statistical interpretation of the 170 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: wave functioned which we will talk about again and a 171 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: little bit because Schrodinger was definitely a wave functioned guy. 172 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: As it turns out, Heisenberg was different. He did not 173 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: really look at the wave function of quantum physics. He 174 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: was looking at something else. And now I'll explain that 175 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: when we get there, because that's fun for me. UM. 176 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: The born Max Boorne was also the director of theoretical 177 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: physics at the university and was Jewish, so he immigrated 178 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: to the United Kingdom when the Nazis came into power 179 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: in Germany and could tinued to research particle physics, well 180 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: well not quite particle physics, quantum physics and theoretical physics, 181 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: as well as teaching in the UK. Then you had 182 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: James Frank who was a physicistant, studied atomic and subatomic collisions, 183 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: particularly electrons colliding with adams, and also was of Jewish heritage. 184 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: So he would leave Germany in nineteen thirty three for 185 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: the United States and would later participate in what was 186 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: known as the Manhattan Project. We could do a full 187 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: episode on the Manhattan Project that in fact, Yeah, it's 188 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: an amazing story. UM. And here's another great story with 189 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: James Frank. So he won the Nobel Prize in n 190 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: for physics. He left the gold medal, the Nobel Prize 191 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: medal back in Germany when he left to essentially flee 192 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: to the United States. Um. There was another physicist named 193 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: George de Heavasy, and I know I'm saying that name wrong, 194 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: So I greatly apologize, but for once, we're talking about 195 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: someone who's not German, so I can't say his name. 196 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: But he he in order to protect this gold medal 197 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: from being taken by the Nazis and melted down, he 198 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: dissolved the metal and acid and then put the solution 199 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: on a shelf, so it's a solution with dissolved gold 200 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: on the shelf. World War two is over, he goes back, 201 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: the solution is still on the shelf. He then precipitates 202 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: that solution, precipitateing the gold out of the acid, and 203 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: he used the gold to melt it back into the 204 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: metal and meant a new and meant a new metal 205 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: so that they can give it uh back to James Frank. 206 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: So that I thought was a really cool story. Then 207 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: there's another professor he studied under was David Hilbert, was 208 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: a mathematician who focused on geometry and functional analysis, who 209 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: retired in n So he lived to see the Nazis 210 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: purge Germany of Jewish mathematicians and physicists, and was later 211 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: asked at a state dinner. He was actually asked a 212 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: question about what was the state of mathematics after it 213 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: had been quote unquote free of Jewish influence, and his 214 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: response was, there's no study of mathematics anymore. He was 215 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: essentially saying that the actions of the Nazis had effectively 216 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: into the entire field because they had they had removed 217 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: or or had caused to flee all of the leading 218 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: thinkers and instead, including like Einstein. So they were turning 219 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: mathematics and science into a political thing, and by doing that, 220 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: they were saying that these other things that did not 221 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: fit that political regime as invalid. And that's not the 222 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: way science works, not the way mathematics works, but that's 223 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: how we're demanding. It can be a very effective means 224 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: of controlling a population by controlling their education. Sure, but 225 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: also it also ends up meaning that you really you, 226 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: you just throw a huge monkey wrench into any kind 227 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: of advancement in those fields. So before World War two, 228 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: this is this is all happening before World War two, 229 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: and Heisenberg is studying under these different professors, so during 230 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: these years he has the ability to really pursue his 231 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 1: interests in theoretical physics and mathematics. So, uh, this was 232 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: on the in the nineteen twenties so and so was 233 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: before even the Third Wreck was coming into power at all. Right, right, 234 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: so that these are in the years between World War 235 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: One and the Nazis rise to power. So during those years, 236 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: that's when Heisenberg was studying. And while many of his 237 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: professors would end up having to flee or would be 238 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: removed from their jobs, at this time none of that 239 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: was necessarily evident that that was going to happen. So 240 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: he spent his time really talking with some of the 241 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: leading thinkers of the day when it comes to theoretical 242 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: physics and mathematics, right, um so Ine he earned his 243 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: PhD from the University of Munich and um went to 244 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: become an assistant to his old professor Maxi Born at 245 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the University of getting In and so in he would 246 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: go to the University of Copenhagen and begin work with 247 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: Niels Henrik David Bore, who was Danish, not German, but 248 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: a Danish physicist and uh and of course he was 249 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: really interested in atomic radiation and atomic structure, and we 250 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: talked about the Boor model of the atom earlier in 251 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: the podcast um So. In nineteen six Heisenberg would go 252 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: to the University of Copenhagen for about a year and 253 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: then leave. But in ninety six there was a position 254 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: opening opening up at the University of Copenhagen for a 255 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: lecturer in theoretical physics. So Boor recommended Heisenberg, thinking that 256 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: Heisenberg was an up and coming leader in this space, 257 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: and so Heisenberg became the lecturer and theoretical physics at 258 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: the University of Copenhagen. Bore himself would be at Copenhagen 259 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: for quite some time until nineteen forty three, where he 260 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: would eventually flee to Sweden to escape the Nazis. Nineteen five, 261 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: that's when Heisenberg publishes his theory of quantum mechanics. So 262 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: he was of the ripe old age of twin d 263 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: three years old, twenty three years old, and he is, uh, 264 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: he is he is presenting a completely um well, he's 265 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: presenting his own, his own perspective on what quantum mechanics 266 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: actually is. As we'll see, that ends up getting kind 267 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: of assimilated into a unified view by looking at some 268 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: some other theories that Heisenberg did not necessarily agree with 269 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: at the time. Nope, not so much at all. As 270 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: it turns out, physicists, like any other type of human being, 271 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: can occasionally get very married to specific ideas and maybe 272 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: a little bit snarky. Yeah, there's some there's some great 273 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: quotes that we'll be reading. Yeah, but yeah, it turns 274 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: out that not everybody agreed on the behavior of particles 275 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: at that level because they were first of all, there 276 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: was no way to really directly observe them, so it's 277 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,119 Speaker 1: all hypothetical, and it was mostly things like your equations 278 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: are are not as easy to understand my equations, therefore 279 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: my equations are better. That kind of thing. In fact, 280 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: that really is one of the arguments. So in n seven, 281 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: at the age of twenty six, you know, he's he's 282 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: definitely hitting that that middle age there for physicists. Twenty 283 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: six years old, he becomes the professor of theoretical physics 284 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: at the University of Leipsig, and this made him the 285 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: youngest full professor in Germany at the time. Yeah, so 286 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,239 Speaker 1: he was certainly making a name for himself in the 287 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: in the academic world. In nineteen nine, he goes on 288 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: a lecture tour of the United States and Japan and India, 289 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: uh and in nineteen thirty two he receives the Nobel 290 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: Prize in Physics for his discovery of the allotropic forms 291 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: of hydrogen. It was is for from that paper that 292 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: he had published about quantum mechanics. Out of that one 293 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: of the applications was this discovery. Right. So, in case 294 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: you're wondering what the heck is an allotrope, it's a 295 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: different structural modification of an element. So let's take carbon. 296 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,719 Speaker 1: Carbon is a great example. When you have a certain 297 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: structure of carbon, it forms graphite. Different structure of carbon 298 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 1: forms diamond too, slightly different substances. Yeah, these these different 299 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: these different manifestations of the same element. I mean, it's 300 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: it's the exact same element. It's just the way that 301 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: it's been or the way that it arranges itself determines 302 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: its qualities. And graphite and diamond are like nine day 303 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: they're incredibly different. So that's what an allotrope is is 304 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: these different manifestations of an element that have very different qualities. 305 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: With the case of hydrogen, we're talking about ortho hydrogen 306 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: and parahydrogen. Don't ask me what that actually means because 307 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: I'm not a physicist or a chemist, so I am 308 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: incapable of answering me, neither I am. I'm at a 309 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: loss there, but I do know that in ninety seven 310 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: Heisenberg married Elizabeth Schumacher, who he would go on to 311 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: have seven children with over the course of their marriage. Wow. 312 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: Now this is also the time when we're starting to 313 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: see the Nazis come into power in World War two 314 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: is beginning, and this was This becomes a pretty muddy 315 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: area of Heisenberg's life because it's hard to know which 316 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: historical records are the most accurate. Right, There's there's a 317 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: lot of contention within the historical community about um, what 318 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: exactly Heisenberg's personal views and um and roles were. In 319 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: all of this, he had become the target of of 320 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: Johannes's Stark n I'm just entering apologize with our English. 321 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: Our English pronunciation in German pronunciation are different and and 322 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: to be fair, the vocal downside of my family is 323 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: is really more like Polish Russian. So Johannes Stark was 324 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: also a physicist, but he was and he was a 325 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: physicist in fact, who in his UH in the twenties 326 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: had published a paper by Einstein. He had actually the 327 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: um UH solicited Einstein to write a paper for the 328 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: publication that he was editing, and it was a publication 329 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: that would eventually lead Einstein to ruminate upon the general 330 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: theory of relativity. It was sort of a kind of 331 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: a precursor to his general theory, which meant that in 332 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: a way, Johannes Stark was very much part of what 333 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: made Einstein a worldwide phenomenon. Now, the reason why I 334 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: say that's really interesting, or perhaps he might even say ironic, 335 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: is that Johannes Stark would align himself with the Nazi regime. 336 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: He wanted essentially to be the fewer of physics, which 337 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: is that's I mean, that's exactly the way I saw 338 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: it worded when I was reading the biography, which is 339 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: kind of terrifying. But he he also aligned himself with 340 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: the Deutsche Physics movement, the the German physics movement, and 341 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: he said that because Heisenberg continued to teach Einstein's theories 342 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: and classroom in Einstein's theories, of course we're not part 343 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: of this Deutsche physics, uh movement. That he was what 344 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: what Stark would call a white Jew or an arian Jew, 345 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: someone who is not Jewish by heritage but is by 346 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: association because he continues to teach these thoughts that Jewish 347 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: mathematicians and physicists had come up with, so that somehow 348 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: that meant that he was a traitor. Yes, so um 349 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: So Stark was very much opposed to Heisenberg and didn't 350 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: feel that Heisenberg should should have any sort of position 351 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: of authority. That did not stop Heisenberg from having that position. 352 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: He was obviously very important to the university and was 353 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: one of the few protected. Of course, part of it 354 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: was that he did not actually have any Jewish ancestry 355 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: that anyone could determine, so that kept him somewhat safe, 356 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: right sure, um you know, there's part of the debate 357 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: about Heisenberg is whether or not he um he stayed 358 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: in order to uh to help preserve Germany's scientific and 359 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: cultural communities, or whether he was actually working for the 360 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: Nazi Party. Um. He was made the director of the 361 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: German Adam Bomb project and spent about five years working 362 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: on that, supposedly, during which another portion of the debate 363 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: is whether he was working towards a nuclear reactor or 364 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, and no one is really entirely sure. Supposedly 365 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: he gave a report to Nazi official Albert Spear um 366 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: that as of one or so, it would take three 367 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: or four years for them to build a nuclear weapon, 368 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: and that that is part of why the Nazi Party said, 369 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: I'll forget this nuclear weapon thing, let's go with nuclear 370 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: reactors to help drive sure. Um and uh so, but 371 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: but you know, that's that's there's been other research um 372 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: for for example, one Paul Lawrence Rose wrote an entire 373 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: book called Heisenberg and the Nazi Coomic Bomb Project that 374 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: stated that, uh, Heisenberg wasn't being evasive to the Nazi Party, 375 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: that rather he was being truthful due to a basic 376 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: misunderstanding of the way that nuclear fission worked, and that 377 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: by the time he figured it out, it was when 378 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: the war was already winding down and he started to 379 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: hear about the atrocities that the Nazi Party had committed 380 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: and kind of reactively recreated this image of himself as 381 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: as having been an anti Nazi the entire time. And 382 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: that's the thing is that it's it's impossible for us 383 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: to say one way or the other because there are 384 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: conflicting reports and and really it's you know, it's just 385 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: it's a it's a difficult thing. Again. Once again, we 386 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: take our our our podcasting hats off to our sister 387 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: podcast stuff he missed in history class that deals with 388 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff all the time. Oh sure, and 389 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: and especially you know, everything surrounding the Nazi Party is 390 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: incredibly sticky. Um. You know, some of my favorite favorite 391 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: stories about that time or stuff like like like like 392 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: Lenie Reefinstahl, who was one of the who was the 393 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: propagandist or a documentary filmmaker for the Nazi Party, And 394 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: I mean she she took tea with Hitler frequently and 395 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: has claimed forever that she never knew about the atrocities 396 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: that were going on. And so it's it's it's one 397 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: of those things like who do you believe? Yeah, and 398 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: uh yeah, getting back into into the what Heisenberg was 399 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: going through at this time. So there is there's an 400 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: argument to be made that he was trying to preserve 401 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: the scientific community in Germany as best he could, because 402 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: there were others who were also trying to do that. 403 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: Max Planck, for example, was also trying to um to 404 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: do that. Although Plank had hoped that the the rise 405 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: of the Nazis was just a temporary kind of kerfuffle 406 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: and that it wasn't going to balloon into this incredible 407 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: conflict that would span the entire globe. He just had 408 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: no He had no concept of that actually happening. So 409 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: he had to stay and to try and keep the 410 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: German departments of mathematics and physics as intact as possible. 411 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: So it could be that that's the case, We honestly 412 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: don't know. In ninety one, Heisenberg becomes the professor of 413 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: physics at the University of Berlin and the director of 414 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: the kaiserville Helm Institute for Physics. And in nineteen forty 415 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: five Heisenberg is taken prisoner by American troops and is 416 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: sent to England. UH. He's freed in nineteen forty six 417 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: and returns to Germany and helps rebuild the Institute for 418 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: Physics at Guttingen and then UH that eventually becomes the 419 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: Max Planck Institute for Physics, which would eventually relocate and 420 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: I believe I believe Heisenberg personally renamed the institute them 421 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: on Max Plunks. And he would continue to travel and 422 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: give lectures about his work, in fact doing so almost 423 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: right up to when he died. He died in on 424 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: February one, nineteen seventy six after developing cancer, so he 425 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: was very much active in the world of lectures and 426 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: academia well after the end of World War Two. Yeah, 427 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: towards the end of his life he became interested in 428 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: plasma physics and a thermonuclear processes. So see, it's uh, 429 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's certainly one of those interesting timelines. And 430 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: in a moment, we're going to really dive into what 431 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: his contributions were in the field of quantum mechanics and 432 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: give a full explanation or as as full as we 433 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: possibly can make it of what the uncertainty principle is 434 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: all about, as well as why it's important in technology, 435 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: because yes, this does have to do with tech. It's 436 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: just going to take us a while to get there. Okay, guys, 437 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure what's about to happen. You could 438 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: say I'm uncertain, So let's take a quick break, all right, 439 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: So now it's time to dive into quantum mechanics. I 440 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I'm not really certain about this. I'm 441 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: just gonna keep making that joke excellent until it's funny. Um. So, yeah, 442 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: he was. Heisenberg had worked in theoretical physics and quantum 443 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: mechanics during the early early days of the discipline, and 444 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: he was particularly interested in studying the radiation from an atom. 445 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: But here's the thing that he was also interested in 446 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: seeing what was actually observable, you know, really look at 447 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: the atom and see what you could actually see it 448 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 1: because we had all these hypothetical particles in these theoretical particles, 449 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: things that that should exist based upon the math involved. 450 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: But but but the science at the time was based 451 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: on on bombarding these these tiny, tiny, tiny sub atomic 452 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: particles with um with things like gamma radiation and then 453 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: observing what we could observe, right, And so he began 454 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: to differentiate between what you could observe and what you 455 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: could not, and then he started to notice things. He 456 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: said that, you know, we can't really always assign a 457 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: position in space to a specific electron at any given time, 458 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: and we can't follow electrons around their orbits. It's it's 459 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: not like a planetary orbit that we can watch continuously, right, 460 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: It's more like there's an area that an electron could 461 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: be in, as opposed to we can specifically point out 462 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: that this is where the electron is at any given moment, 463 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: or this is the direction it is traveling at any 464 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: given moment, and this would start to plant the seed 465 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: in his mind for the uncertainty principle. So first he 466 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: said that you know, bores postulation that the the the 467 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: orbits of electrons are around the nucleus was more or 468 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: less correct. You couldn't actually be certain of what those 469 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: orbits were because the unobservable nature of these electrons move. Yeah, 470 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: there's just no way to assign a figure to this. 471 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: You can't say the electron is in uh, this particular 472 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: quadrant around the nucleus UM and you couldn't talk about 473 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: really the electron's velocity either. Velocity, by the way, is 474 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: speed us direction, right, And so he started to say 475 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: that instead of using um classic numbers, the kinds of 476 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: numbers that we would use to describe human scale physics, 477 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: that that we needed to use matrices. Yeah, and a 478 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: matrix is essentially an abstract mathematical structure. So this was 479 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: almost like talking about probabilities. It's it's kind of fuzzy, 480 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: it's not specific, it's not precise. And in fact, that 481 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: was Heisenberg's argument, was that precision is something that you 482 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: could strive for, but you were never ever going to 483 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: get Uh, he kind of arrived at this gradually. So 484 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: in ninety he was involved in a bit of a spat, 485 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: a debate, if you will, about a theoretical spat actually 486 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: was real spat about theory, but it was on. So 487 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: you had two sides to this debate. You had Heisenberg 488 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: and his his fellow physicists, who I thought of quantum 489 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: mechanics in the term of these matrices, these this abstract 490 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: mathematic way of describing the position or motion of an electron, 491 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: because again he was arguing that you could not define 492 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: it in a way that was like it's at x, 493 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: y and z coordinates. You could not do that. I 494 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: was using the matrix. And there was another set of 495 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: scientists who were trying to describe some atomic particles as 496 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: as waves the way that we would electromagnetic radiation, unlike 497 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: or own Strodinger. Yeah, Schrodinger, Schrodinger, Yeah, he and his 498 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: kitty cat. Actually Schroedinger and the cat story is kind 499 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: of interesting, just a little side notes. So you've probably 500 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: heard of Schrodinger's cat, where Schrodinger was uh, kind of 501 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: giving a thought experiment kind of thing to explain how 502 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: how this this other form the matrix form of quantum 503 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: mechanics is a little weird. The idea that you have 504 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: a cat inside a box, and inside that box you 505 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: also have a little canister with poisonous gas estenate, and 506 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: there's some explosive that has a that that will go 507 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: off at some point and I am giving a variation classic. So, 508 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: so within half an hour there's a fifty chance that 509 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: the explosive inside that canstor has gone off and released 510 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: the poisonous gas and little killed the cat. Yes, kitty 511 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: is no more one life down, eight to go. There's 512 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: also a fifty percent chance that the that the explosion 513 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: has not yet happened, and that Kitty is fine but 514 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: possibly very bored inside this box. And so the thing 515 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: is that because of uh, this this weird quantum effect, 516 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: and keep in mind this is really something that only 517 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: happens at the quantum level. When you get up to 518 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: the macro level that we see this is not actually 519 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: the case. But the idea is that the cat is 520 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: both alive and dead at the same time, and superposition 521 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: that has both states and superposition, and it's only when 522 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: you open up the box and observe the cat that 523 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: one of those two possibilities becomes true, becomes true, and 524 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: the other one just becomes yeah, it goes away, and 525 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: that then you have either the live cat or the 526 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: dead cat, so that the cat is said to be 527 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: alive and debt at the same time until you observe it, 528 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: and that's when reality snaps into place and you suddenly 529 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: get one of the two results. And it was kind 530 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: of a way of saying like this is just, you know, 531 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: kind of crazy. It's turned out to be one of 532 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: those things we always refer to anyway. So Schroinger's cat 533 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: and Heisenberg's and certainty principle both are trying to explain 534 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: various weird things about the quantum level. There's another one 535 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: that we can touch on also that gets confused with 536 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: Heisenberg's and certainty principle, which is the idea that by 537 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: observing something you actually affect the outcome. So in other words, 538 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: when we're looking at sub atomic particles, simply shining light 539 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: onto them affects their movement, because we're talking about photons 540 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 1: impacting subatomic particles, which changes the pathway, which means just 541 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: by taking an observation in a measurement, you have changed 542 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: what has what was going to happen. So it makes 543 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: it even more impossible to predict things based upon the 544 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: behaviors of stuff, because just by observing it, you change 545 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: what that outcome actually is. Now that's not heisenberg'sun certainty 546 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: principle either, but it often gets confused. So we've got 547 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: this debate. We've got the wave mechanics debate, and that's 548 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: Schrodinger's side, and we've got the matrices debate, and that's 549 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: Heisenberg's side. And the debate was not always civil. Uh, 550 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: there was there. There was a quote that Heisenberg made 551 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: to another physicist, Wolfgang Ernst Pauli, which was, the more 552 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: I think about the physical portion of Schrodinger's theory, the 553 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: more repulsive I find it. What Schrodinger writes about the visualizability. Visualizability, Boy, 554 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: that's a hard word. Of his theory is probably not 555 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: quite right. In other words, it's crap thick burn. Yeah, 556 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: that was a little that was a little rough. So 557 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: here's what the difference was between these two. Stroutinger's approach 558 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: require less complicated math to explain the relationship of a 559 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: sub atomic particles movement and and and it's it's position 560 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: around a nucleus example, an electron around the nucleus as 561 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: an example, and it furthermore explained some of the things 562 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: that Heisenberg's theory couldn't really fully explain. It's sort of 563 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of pushed them under the rug in a way, 564 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: because Heisenberg's approach showed that there were these little quantum 565 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: jumps quantum leaps as if yes, exactly, there's quantum leaps 566 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: when you cannot quite solve the problem, or you solve 567 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: the problem and then you have to leap into the 568 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: next body and hopefully your next leap is the one 569 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: that takes you home. No, in this case, the quantum 570 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: jumps were the fact that you would see electrons behave 571 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: in a weird way, like suddenly an electron would behave 572 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: as if it had a higher amount of energy than 573 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: it normally would, and that was, you know, Heisenberg's approach 574 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: showed these well with Schroedinger's approach, because we're talking about 575 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: a continuous wave a wave function, it smooths everything out, 576 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: so you don't have these jagged, you know, jumps, you 577 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: have just a smooth transition um. So the Schroedinger's argument 578 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: was that, hey, you know, I've looked at the way 579 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: you are calculating this, and I look at the way 580 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: I'm calculating this, and it turns out the outcomes are 581 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: the same. We're getting the same results, but mine requires 582 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: less complicated math and not all this mathematic abstraction that 583 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: you are insisting upon. So therefore I'm right and you're wrong, 584 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: or at least mine is more eloquent. So you've got 585 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: these two parties of physicists getting a little caddy Schroedinger caddy. 586 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: Perhaps um, there are alive cats and dead cats. But then, uh, 587 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: it's interesting because you started getting into other physicists getting 588 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: into the game, including Ernst Pascal Jordan's or Jordan I suppose, 589 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: who was a German physicist who attact later joined the 590 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: Nazi Party, become part of that movement, in fact enlisted 591 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: in the Luftwaffe. Um. And then you had Paul de 592 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: Rak who was an English physicist who both created unified 593 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: equations that took the wave function approach and the matrices 594 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: approach and combine them into what was called a transformation theory, 595 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: which is the very basis of quantum mechanics. So again 596 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: this is all theoretical, it's essentially trying physicists trying to 597 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: figure out how to to apply the same sort of 598 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: observation that they had in classical interpretation of physics on 599 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: the macro scale to the quantum level, which is the 600 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: incredibly tiny scale the atomic or subatomic scale, at which 601 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: their rules do not apply. Right. So, but the transformation 602 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: theory ended up showing that there was a combination of 603 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: both Schroedinger's approach and Heisenberg's approach the sort of wave 604 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: particle duality that we know about with quantum mechanics. That's 605 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: kind of what was coming out of this discussion. So 606 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: instead of them both saying no, I'm right, now, I'm right, 607 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: these guys are like, well, actually you're both right. Technically, yeah, 608 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: light is a particle and a wave, and it gets boy, 609 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: toy doesn't get even more crazy, Like it seems magical 610 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: to those of us who are used to classical physics 611 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: on that macro scale, because if things on the macro 612 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: scale behaved the same way that things in the quantum 613 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: scale behaved, it would be like we were living in 614 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: Harry Potter World or something right right there, there would 615 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: be a lot of a lot of you know, people 616 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: suddenly jumping to the left right. Yeah, because you know, 617 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: or you can never really be sure where someone was 618 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: or how quickly they were moving and and emitting light 619 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: when they did it, they'd be half dead and half 620 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: alive until you looked at them. Yeah, there's a whole 621 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: bunch of things that would be pretty bizarre in our world. 622 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of this classic episode 623 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: of tech stuff after this quick break. So Heisenberg studied 624 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: Jordan and de Rocks papers and found that there were 625 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: probably ms whenever he tried to measure the basic physical 626 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: variables appearing in the equations. And by physical variables, I 627 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: mean an electrons position and its momentum. So that led 628 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: Heisenberg to create the famous principle of uncertainty, which he 629 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: did in nine seven. We usually call that Heisenberg uncertainty principle. 630 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: So here's here's how it breaks down. The more precisely 631 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: you determine the position of a sub atomic particle, for example, 632 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: an electron around the nucleus, So the more precisely you 633 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: determine its position, the less precisely you can know about 634 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: the momentum at that moment, and vice versa. So if 635 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: you more precisely determine the subotomic particles momentum, the less 636 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 1: precisely you can know its actual position, right um. So specifically, 637 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: he was saying that um that running the calculation for this, 638 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: for this determination of the position and the momentum um 639 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: necessarily contains errors, the product of which physically cannot be 640 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: less than the quantum constant h Plancks constant, which is 641 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: the smallest unit the quantum of action in an atom. Right. 642 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: And so what he's saying here is that it doesn't 643 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: matter how advanced your measurement apparatus is. In fact, there 644 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: was one point where More criticized Heisenberg's approach because he 645 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: said that he was using essentially microscopes that were not 646 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: precise enough, and in fact it made an error. And 647 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: then Heisenberg got really upset a Bore, and the two 648 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: of them had a falling out that lasted about a year, 649 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: and then Heisenberg eventually wrote a paper and acknowledge He said, 650 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, Bore has criticized this because of such and such, 651 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: an acknowledged that in fact there was an error, but 652 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: said that ultimately that error was beside the point because 653 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: it would not matter how precise that was the fact 654 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: remained that the more you would learn about one thing, 655 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: the less you could know about the other. That's the 656 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: uncertainty or complimentarianism is another way that some people have 657 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: said that there's this complementary relationship between the momentum and 658 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: the position. So in case you I want to know 659 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: what momentum is, that's mass times velocity. Velocity is that 660 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: speed and direction, So that's important to know. So on 661 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: the human scale, this uncertainty is completely negligible. There's you 662 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: might as well just throw it out the window because 663 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: on our scale it just doesn't that it doesn't factor 664 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: into it. It's such a tiny thing. But when you 665 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: look at the smaller scales, this tiny tiny thing becomes 666 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: huge because you're looking at things on an incredibly small scale. 667 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: And because we can't know but with precision both a 668 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: sub atomics particles, a position and its momentum, we cannot 669 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: really make predictions about what's going to happen in the future. 670 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: And in fact, uh this is where Heisenberg says causality 671 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: becomes a problem because if you cannot determine that subatomic 672 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: particles position and momentum, you cannot actually know what's going 673 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: to happen next. So if you were to expand this out, 674 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: now this is this is to the absurd, But if 675 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: you were to expand this out, you could say that 676 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: you cannot for certain know that by doing a certain action, 677 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: a particular effect is going to follow. That's not really 678 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: the case with classical physics again, because we're talking about 679 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: the macro scale, but on the qualm scale, that's the 680 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: case we cannot really know what will happen from one 681 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: moment to the next because we can't know enough about 682 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: all the factors to make that determination, which is which 683 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: is kind of wonderful and kind of terrifying right simultaneously, 684 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: and though it's a cat in a box yep. And 685 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: and then this also ties into that observation problem, right 686 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: because if we even if we observe the phenomenon, then 687 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: we're affecting, we're changing the phenomens. We're making it even 688 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: more impossible to determine what the effect is going to be. 689 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: The cause and effect at the scale is something that 690 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: becomes purely theoretical, because as soon as you try and 691 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: apply practical approaches to it, it all breaks down. And 692 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 1: we promise this really does relate directly to technology, we're 693 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: getting there. So we then show that light can be 694 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,479 Speaker 1: interpreted as both wave functions and as a particle. That's 695 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: with Boor and Heisenberg together working, they were able to 696 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: kind of come to this conclusion. And as soon as 697 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: you decide how to observe a particular experiment, that interpretation 698 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: become is true and the other interpretation collapses. So, in 699 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: other words, if you're looking at light as a wave, 700 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: you see it as a wave. If you look at 701 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: light as a particle, you see it as a particle, 702 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: and the other half of that interpretation goes away, which 703 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: is insane. They were talking about it about how how 704 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: you observe the experiment, we disturb untouched nature and we 705 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: become limited and learning about nature as it really is. 706 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 1: In other words, we have a very narrow view into 707 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: what reality is, and once we focus that view on something, 708 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: we cannot know everything else that's outside of that view. 709 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: So imagine that you have a telescope and you are 710 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: using that telescope to look at something that's on the 711 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: distant horizon, and you can see that you can see 712 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: the thing that's on the horizon, but everything else has 713 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: faded away. It's like all of that's just gone. That's 714 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: kind of what the sort of an analogy as to 715 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: what he was saying here, which is disturbing to think 716 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: about in a way, but that's how reality works, so 717 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 1: you gotta come of deal with it um. So Heisenberg's 718 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: uncertainty principle in Stringer's wave functions become the basis of 719 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:11,439 Speaker 1: the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. And the reason why 720 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: we even did this podcast besides the fact that I 721 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: think someone actually asked us to and Lauren's going to 722 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: look that up, but the reason why we're doing this 723 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: is because heisenberg'suncertainty principle plays into the way that we 724 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: use electronics today, because now we're working with electronics that 725 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: have components that are on this tiny, tiny skin at 726 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: least the nano scale, which is one one factor up 727 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: from atomic but far away. The flow of electrons is 728 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: critical for modern absolutely and while we're making these tiny 729 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: transistors or transistor elements that are part of these integrated circuits, 730 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, the whole purpose of transistors is to guide 731 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: the flow of electrons, to allow them to pass or 732 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: to not allow them to pass through a circuit. Well, 733 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 1: if you make the gates really thin. Heisenberg's and certainty 734 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: principle tells us that there is a kind of a 735 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: zone in which you might find an electron, and because 736 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: of the uncertainty about the electron's momentum or energy, sometimes 737 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: that electron can jump up an energy level because of 738 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: our uncertainty, we we you know, it just will pop 739 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: up an energy level and then pop back down, which 740 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: means they can be found in a slightly larger zone 741 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: than you would not necessarily expect based upon its actual 742 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: energy level, which can be problematic when when you've got 743 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: these incredibly thin gates that are supposed to be keeping 744 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: an electrons on one side, right, that that zone might 745 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: extend beyond the far side of that gate. And if 746 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: the zone extends beyond the far side of the gate, 747 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: that means that it's possible for an electron to appear 748 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: on the other side of the gate without having actually 749 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: passed through that circuit, which means called electron tunneling. And 750 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: since it's possible, it happens, which which means that, yeah, 751 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: unless we figure out ways of getting around these you know, 752 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: these these fundamental quantum phenomena that we you know, there's 753 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: a point where you cannot make the components any smaller 754 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: because the electrons just won't play ball. They're just gonna 755 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: go every way that the fundamental quantum traffic laws, as 756 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: you put it in our exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it means 757 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 1: that that you're you're gonna get errors in your various 758 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: chips because they will not be allowing the or or 759 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: preventing the electrons from flowing the way they're supposed to, 760 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: because the electrons are just going to be able to 761 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: tunnel right through when when those uh, those energy levels 762 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 1: bump up uncertainly. It's bizarre, it's so weird to think 763 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: about um. But engineers have found ways of working around that, 764 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: using different materials that uh that that minimize this so 765 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: that they can continue to make things smaller and smaller. 766 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: But we will reach a point when that is just 767 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: not going to be the way that chips will be 768 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: designed anymore. Either will will plateau and we won't be 769 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: able to make chips with smaller components, or will find 770 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: a different means of useing sub atomic particles to process information, 771 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: and we'll move away from electron based chips, which is 772 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,800 Speaker 1: hard to consider. It's really weird to think about. Yeah, 773 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: that's not that that that is beyond my entire brain 774 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, I'm actually starting to feel a nosebleed 775 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: coming on because I'm a I'm an English literature major. 776 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: Al Right, well, let's let's bring this back to something, 777 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: to something a little bit more peaceful and serene. I 778 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: have I have a quote from Heisenberg via via pds um. 779 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: He once said natural science does not simply describe and 780 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: explain nature. It's part of the interplay between nature and ourselves. 781 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,800 Speaker 1: It describes nature as exposed to our method of questioning. 782 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: That's pretty cool, which I thought was nice. I thought 783 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,760 Speaker 1: that that was a much less nosebleedy way of saying 784 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: that that we mess stuff up scientifically. And also it 785 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: also is less uh nasty than his note to U 786 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: or note about Shrodinger. Right. So um oh, I found 787 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: the name of the person who requested this via Facebook. 788 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: This was from listener Peter. So Peter asked us about this, 789 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: and I hope that we were able to answer your 790 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: questions to uh your satisfaction. It was certainly to the 791 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: best of our ability, keeping in mind that neither of 792 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,239 Speaker 1: us are theoretical physicists. Not by a long show mathematicians 793 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 1: for that matter. Uh fascinating subject, and there are a 794 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: lot of books out there that are really really good 795 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: about explaining Heisenberg's role and also the contributions of his contemporaries, 796 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: everyone from Einstein to Somerville, to Schroedinger to to all 797 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: all the great physicists of the nineteen twenties and thirties 798 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: who have really made modern technology possible through their discoveries. 799 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 1: And that wraps up another classic episode of tech Stuff. 800 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,359 Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoyed it. If you have any 801 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: suggestions for future topics, reach out to me. You can 802 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: get in touch on Twitter or on Facebook. The handle 803 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: at both of those is tech Stuff hs W and 804 00:47:55,239 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: I'll talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is 805 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from I 806 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 807 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.