1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from house Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And today on the podcast, we are 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: celebrating Grandparents Day, which is happening on September seven, and 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: we're focusing in the first half of the podcast on 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: grandmothers and particularly how grandmother's, at least according to one 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: evolutionary theory, are to thank for kind of everything. That's right. 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: Grandmothers are responsible for their being people, which makes sense, 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: but they're also responsible for people living longer, being healthier, 10 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: having bigger brains, and also eating chocolate chip cookies. That's right. 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: My grandmother's never made me chocolate chip cocase. My grandmother 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: may she rest in Eas used to make me and 13 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: my siblings what she called cowboy cookies, which are basically 14 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: oatmeal cookies with chocolate chips in them, and I have 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: the recipe, but they still don't taste like the ones 16 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: that she made because they're not infused with GRANDMAA. I know, 17 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: I know, but I digress. Let's get out of out 18 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: of my nostalgic kitchen and my brain and get down 19 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: to the grandmother hypothesis because This is super fascinating and 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: we'll give I hope all listeners a newfound appreciation for 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: this role. That's right. And so if we're going to 22 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: look at evolutionary theories and how grandmothers are basically responsible 23 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: for all of humanity surviving and succeeding in life. When 24 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: you look at animals, female animals typically don't live past 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: their reproductive years by much. Among humans, however, we have 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: grandma's and they outlive their reproductive years by a cup 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: of decades and so um. Evolutionary theorists and researchers have 28 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: looked into this and found that grandmothers have really played 29 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: a critical role in the evolution of our human longevity. Yeah, 30 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: because it really doesn't make all that much sense that 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: women go through menopause and then hang out because you know, 32 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: grandfather's exists in quotes, because they can keep reproducing at infinitum. 33 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: Whereas you after, you would think of going to evolutionary 34 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: theory once women have hit their reproductive peak and then 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: gotten a whole series of hot flashes and all of 36 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: these to go along with that, that we would soon 37 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: thereafter die off. But no, so if you go back 38 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: to nineteen fifty seven, there's this evolutionary biologist named George 39 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: Williams who proposes something called the stopping early hypothesis, and 40 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: his idea was, at middle aged women men needed baby 41 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: free time in order to usher their younger children into adulthood. Right, 42 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: and so this is a theory that's definitely focusing on 43 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: the children, not the grandchildren in particular. And then Williams 44 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties is followed by American anthropologist Kristen Hawks, 45 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: who had a slightly different explanation for why women stick 46 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: around after menopause. She was actually inspired by the Hasda 47 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: culture of Tanzania. She noticed that older women spent their 48 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: days collecting tubers and other food for their grandkids. But 49 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: in doing so, they were working harder and longer than 50 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: the younger women, and they collected way more food than necessary. 51 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: So what is the deal? Why were they doing this? 52 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: So she took her notes and ended up studying other 53 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: modern hunter gatherer societies in places like Tanzania, Venezuela, and 54 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: eastern Paraguay. And she measured the muscle strength of men 55 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: and women in these communities and Wade will basically the 56 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: loads of food and resources that they were carrying. Found 57 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: out that women in their sixties were just as strong 58 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: as women in their twenties. She also noted, which is 59 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: very key, that the children with grandmothers or great aunts 60 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: had faster growth rates than their counterparts the kids who didn't. 61 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: And so the theory shifts from hey, women stick around 62 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: to usher their children into adulthood to oh, look at this, 63 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: these these older ladies are sticking around to help their 64 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: grandchildren succeed. They're super strong, and they are carrying just 65 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: armloads of tubers, their bench pressing tubers over their heads. 66 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: Giant tuba. Yes, and so. Based off these observations in 67 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: these modern hunter gatherer societies, Hawks develops what is known 68 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: as the grandmother hypothesis, which maintains that menopause exists in 69 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: order to divert older women's energy and resources into caring 70 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: for not only her kids, but also her grandkids, thereby 71 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: providing her descendants with a survival advantage. Right, and so, 72 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: in looking at these cultures and in looking way way 73 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: back in ancient societies, etcetera, etcetera, grandmothers by helping out 74 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: around the house or hut, we're basically freeing up their 75 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: daughters to have more children quickly as opposed to if 76 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: you look at chimpanzees who weighed about five years to 77 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: have more offspring, and so that means that you have 78 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: the most evolutionarily fit grandmothers having the most grandchildren and 79 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: therefore passing on the longevity jeans. Evolution dropped the mic. 80 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: And on top of passing on those longevity jeans and 81 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: of course gathering all those two hawks has written that 82 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: grandmother and gave us quote a whole array of social 83 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: capacities that are the foundation for the evolution of other 84 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: distinct human traits, including pair bonding, bigger brains, learning new skills, 85 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: and our tendency for cooperation. Well, thank you, grandmother, thank 86 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: you so much. That's right. I mean, so basically, if 87 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: you look back at like our ape ancestors, you know 88 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: there was a point when certain apes with larger brains 89 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: started going off and getting tools and using tools and 90 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: going farther for resources and food, and so those big 91 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: brained grandma's had to stick around and help their big 92 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: brained grand grand apes. I guess grand grow up happy 93 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: and healthy and eating all those tubers. Now, not everybody 94 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: is on board with the grandmother hypothesis, because that would 95 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: mean that science is too easy. There's been plenty of 96 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: people who have said, I don't know, because with the 97 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: grandmother hypothesis, you're discounting the impact in these hunter gatherer 98 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: societies of men going out and hunting and bringing back 99 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: this important energy low to the families as well. So 100 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: there was a paper particularly in two thousand ten that 101 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: came out called Grandmothering and Natural Selection, which basically said 102 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: that the grandmother hypothesis is too weak of a force 103 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: to really explain longevity. But then Hawks went back to 104 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: the drawing board and created a mathematical model to test 105 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: the hypothesis, right, And she used a hypothetical primate like 106 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: population um showing the advantages of quote, even a little 107 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: bit of grandmother, even just half of a cowboy cookie 108 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: my case. Yeah, so even just a quarter a crumb 109 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: of that cookie increased longevity into from ape like longevity 110 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: into the human range of about how long we live now, 111 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: And so that ended up doubling in this model the 112 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: human life span. Oh and there's a fascinating side note 113 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: to this theory because it also applies to whales, which 114 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: are another exception in terms of species that live past menopause. 115 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: And this was something uncovered by evolutionary biologists at the 116 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: University of Cambridge Rufus Johnson, who said they're the only 117 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: other mammal apart from us, where females have a comparable 118 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: post reproductive lifespan. What up whales? That's right? Uh? And 119 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: speaking of mathematical models, Johnson and Dr Michael Kent at 120 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: the University of exit A developed a model to study 121 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: the kinship dynamics that exist in Orca's short finned pilot 122 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: whales and humans. We don't have fins, but we we 123 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: fit into the same model. And these guys found that 124 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: as the post menopausal females in all of these species aged, 125 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: they actually ended up developing closer ties to infants. And 126 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: so they wrote, our analysis can help explain why I've 127 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: all long lived social mammals. It is specifically among great 128 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: apes and toothed whales. And I guess people too that 129 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: menopause and post reproductive helping have evolved whales. They're just 130 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: like us who knew so. While the grandmother hypothesis is 131 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: certainly intriguing evolutionary food for thought, is there a modern 132 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: day application to it? Gerontologists Linda Freed, who is the 133 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: Dean of Columbia University School of Public Health told the 134 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: New Republic that, eah, there could be a modern day 135 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: application to this, because, as she said, older adults constitute 136 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: the only increasing natural resource in the entire world. So 137 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: what if we symbolically, metaphoric, metaphorically figuratively sent our grandmothers 138 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: out collecting tubers in our modern in our modern society. Yea, 139 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: so to speak, Well, she looked at it in terms 140 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: of school free. It actually started a program that put 141 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: retirees in at risk public schools in nineteen cities and 142 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: found that kids who had retirees in their classrooms actually 143 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: did a lot better. And maybe this is because the 144 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: retirees are helping teachers or they're keeping kids in line. 145 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: But significantly also for the elderly participants in this program, 146 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: they actually did a lot better themselves too. They performed 147 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: better on health tests, happiness tests, probably because they felt useful. 148 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: I know that my dad's dad, after he retired, did 149 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: not do so well anymore. He got actually really depressed 150 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: because he had been the family man, the provider, the 151 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: working man, you know, had a great career, and once 152 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: he retired he just kind of felt shoved to the side. Sure, well, 153 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: and if we look more at the developing world, there 154 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: have been studies finding that it's the grandmother's in particular 155 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: who tend to benefit their families financially. So Free To 156 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: offered the example of when older black people in South 157 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: Africa first began receiving pensions from the post apartheid government, 158 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: the grandchildren who were living with grandmothers and particularly their granddaughters, 159 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: grew taller and gained more weight, which essentially was a 160 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: sign that they were getting healthier because the grandmothers were 161 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: allocating more of that pension back into their households. Right. 162 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: But interestingly, when it was the grandfathers who received the pensions, 163 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: the grandkids did not grow at all. And I thought 164 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: this whole concept sounded familiar in terms of like micro 165 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: loan programs in Africa and other regions of the world, 166 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: where it shows that when women received these loans, they 167 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: are the money is spent kind of more wisely. Yeah. Well, 168 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: and this also hearkens back to Kristen hawks initial research 169 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: in the eighties looking at, you know, the Hausa culture 170 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 1: of Tanzania and other places where those grandmothers who were 171 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: living you know with and helping out with their grandchildren, 172 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: the grandkids had those faster growth rates. So there is 173 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: something powerful about grandmother's and this is of course nothing 174 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: against grandfather's, but it is something incredible about grandmother's and 175 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: so we should definitely take a look speaking of grandpa's 176 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: as well, we should take a look at what being 177 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: a grandmother or grandfather entails today in terms of numbers 178 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: and are they happy. We have to find this out, 179 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about it when we get right back 180 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: from a quick break. So when it comes to being 181 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: a grandmother grandfather in the US in particular today, because 182 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of these statistics are going to 183 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: come from, it's becoming more and more common for that 184 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: to involve caring for your grandchildren and not just having 185 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the grandkids dropped off for a few weeks during the summer, 186 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: perhaps in fact, the grandkids living with you full time. 187 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: Because in fact, as of Sensus stated from two thousand eleven, 188 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: seven million grandparents in the US had grandchildren under eighteen 189 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: living with them, and nearly half of those grandkids were 190 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: under the age of six, which that is talking about 191 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: a full time childcare load. Right. But if you look 192 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: at those seven million grandparents who have grandkids under eighteen 193 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: living with them, two point seven million were responsible for 194 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: the basic needs of one or more grandkids under eighteen, 195 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: and so that means that they are custodial grandparents. They're 196 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: raising the grandkids. And in terms of the grandmother grandfather 197 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: split in that you do tend to have more grandmother 198 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: is possibly because, as we know, men do tend to 199 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: die at earlier ages than women. But one point seven 200 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: million of that two point seven million we just mentioned 201 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: were grandmothers and one million were grandfathers, right, And when 202 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: you put these numbers in context, what they're telling us 203 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: is that more grandparents are raising their grandkids in the 204 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: United States. In fact, over the past forty years, the 205 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: share of US children living in a grandparents household has 206 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: more than doubled, from three percent in nineteen seventy to 207 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: seven percent in And if you look at the more 208 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: recent rise of grandkids living with grandparents, a lot of 209 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: people pinpoint it as a side effect of the Great Recession, 210 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: because a lot of times when you have that kind 211 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: of custodial situation, it's due to the fact that the 212 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: child's parents can't afford to take care of them in 213 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: their house, or they might be dealing with situations such 214 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: as UH, drug addictions, or they might be incarcerated. They 215 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: might also be deployed uh in a military capacity. There 216 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: are all sorts of reasons for that to happen, but UH, 217 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: financial reasons often come up again and again. Yeah, and 218 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: if you look at those reasons for these cohabitating living 219 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: situations specifically, there is a September national survey by the 220 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: nonprofit Generations United that looked at living situations that involved 221 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: the parents being there too, so it's a multigenerational household 222 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: versus when the grandparents are the custodians of the children. 223 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: And they found that the reasons for a multigenerational living 224 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: situation when the parents are there too, uh, that typically 225 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: involves unemployment or unemployment, healthcare costs, and home foreclosure. So 226 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: you're moving in together to save resources. But when the 227 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: grandparents are the sole caregivers for the grandkids, that tends to, 228 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: according to the survey, come about because of the grandchild 229 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: fields parents, substance abuse, but also things like incarceration, death, 230 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: mental illness, or child neglect. These kids are also more 231 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: likely to have a disability, be teenagers, and have family 232 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: income below the poverty line, so a lot of potential 233 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: family hardships that could lead to maybe a parent not 234 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: being able to appropriately care for a child and having 235 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: to get the grandparents help well. And to add to that, 236 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: because a lot of times when grandparents are, you know, 237 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: the soul custodians of their grandchildren, it's due to not 238 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: so favorable circumstances. And adding to that is the fact 239 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: that the media and family income in families where the 240 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: grandparent is responsible for children under eighteen when the parents 241 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: are not present, when you're not in that multigenerational household 242 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: set up, the meeting income is only thirty three thousand 243 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: and six D twenty seven, So there's usually a big 244 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: financial strain within the household as well. And there's been 245 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: a lot of research to on the ethnic and community 246 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: breakdowns of who is likelier to have grandchildren living with grandparents, 247 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: and particularly grandmothers, because again, grandkids are likelier to live 248 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: with grandmothers um and there was a research project looking 249 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: at stats in the US which found that black and 250 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: Hispanic grandmothers are more likely than white grandmothers to live 251 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: with grandchildren, and black grandmothers are more likely than Hispanic 252 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: grandmothers to be the primary caregivers. So there's a lot 253 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: of nuance though, even in just that sentence, because grandmother's 254 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: living with grandchildren could denote all sorts of things like 255 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: a grandmother not able to fully care for herself living 256 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: with her children, or maybe it's a situation where there 257 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: is someone who's incarcerated or dealing with the substance abuse problem, 258 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: and so that grandmother has sole custody. Right. And as 259 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: far as the effect on kids and grandparents in these 260 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: custodial grandparents situations, this is coming from the National Institute 261 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: of Mental Health. They found that custodial grandchildren have higher 262 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: levels of emotional and behavioral problems than children in the 263 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: overall US population. But I mean, I would think that, 264 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, we just talked about a lot of the 265 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: scary reasons that a grandchild could live with a grandparent, 266 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: and so you know, it's I don't know the correlation 267 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: and causation relationship here exactly, but it seems like if 268 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: you've had something terrible happened in your family that has 269 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: led you to live with a grandparents instead of just like, oh, 270 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: I want in state tuition a college, so you know, 271 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: like they want cowboy cookies every day, right, So it 272 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: seems like these kids might have emotional turmoil in their 273 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: lives regardless, just because of the difficult circumstances that led 274 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: to the living situation. Yeah, they probably didn't go there 275 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: by choice. And Gregory C. Smith from Kent State University 276 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: is someone who's looked into this, and he found that 277 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: one comes to the grandmother grandchild relationship, boys do tend 278 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: to present many more difficulties than girls, and he thinks 279 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: that it might be because boys are likelier to have 280 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: externalizing behavior problems, So you know, it's it's sort of 281 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: self explanatory. Their emotional and behavioral difficulties are expressed outwardly 282 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: in the form of acting up or talking back or 283 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: don't mean nice to your grandma exactly, and so she'll 284 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: probably withhold the cookies. Who Whereas with girls, Smith says 285 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: that they're likelier to have internalizing problems where they channel 286 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: those difficulties into anxiety, fear, depression. So it's the other 287 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: side of the same coin, really. And also when it 288 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: comes to younger children between ages two and six, Laura Pittman, 289 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: whose researcher at Northern Illinois University found that they did 290 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: lag behind their peers in developing academic skills, right, But 291 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: they found it for preschoolers in particular, having a caring 292 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: adult who attends to their needs can help avert problem 293 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: behaviors in addition to anxiety and depression. And that makes sense, yeah, 294 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: And I mean we also have to give credit to 295 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: these custodial grandparents too, who according to that research project 296 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: I mentioned a minute ago, which found that in particular, 297 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: African American grandparents are likelier to impart religious and spiritual 298 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: beliefs and also discuss what they term uncomfortable issues such 299 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: as drugs, peer pressure, sex with their grandchildren in other words, 300 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: to help them navigate through daily challenges. And they were 301 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: also likelier to report that they spend money on their 302 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: grandchildren to help with everyday living expenses. So there are 303 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: in other words, they're doing everything that they can to 304 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: these kids, right, And that can lead to a lot 305 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: of strain on these custodial grandparents. I mean, there's so 306 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: many good things about having a close relationship with your 307 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: grandparents as a grandchild, but um, there's a lot of 308 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: strain that can come out of that as well. Uh Smith. 309 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: The researcher looked at things like strained relationships with birth parents, 310 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: social stigma, financial pressure, and their own increasing age related 311 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: health concerns. So I mean, they don't stop having to 312 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: worry about their own lives just because they're caring for 313 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: these grandkids. But often I think Smith was talking about 314 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: how easy it is to sort of overlook your own 315 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: problems when you have to when you have a kid 316 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 1: to take care of. And Smith also talked about studies 317 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: showing that a caregiver, in this case of grandparent and 318 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: even moderate distress can have an impact on a child's adjustment. 319 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: So a kid who might already be having emotional problems, 320 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: behavior problems, if grandma is super stressed out about your issues, 321 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: that's gonna make yours even worse. There's like a spiral 322 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: of ad negative things that can happen. Well, And there 323 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: was an article in the Chicago Tribune not too long 324 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: about the health impacts on these full time you know, 325 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: grandparents parenting their grandchildren and talk about how they tend 326 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: to have higher rates of depression, high rates of higher 327 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: blood pressure, and other health issues that come up simply 328 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: because they are so focused on being a caregiver, they 329 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily taking as good of care of themselves as 330 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: they might need to. And it's also Caroline reminds me 331 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: of our episode a while back on child caregivers. I 332 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: have a feeling that that relationship can come up as well, 333 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: where you have a grandparent who might be caring for 334 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: a child, but also a child caring for that grandparents 335 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: if he or she has any sort of health problem, disability, um, 336 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: things like that. So there are a lot of different 337 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: dynamics within these relationships, and that issue of stigma too 338 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: that comes up is one that is particularly troubling because 339 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's we we tend to uh, you know, 340 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: grandparents send to hold this laudable position in our society. 341 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: They're very revered or hopefully we would hope that they 342 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: are revered. Um. But it seems like, at least in 343 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: the US, if a child is living full time with 344 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: a grandparent, it's usually it's not frowned upon. It's not 345 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: the right word, but it's like a signal that owe something, 346 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: something is not exactly as it should be, rather than 347 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe providing more resources to those grandparents 348 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: and grandchildren. Well yeah, and I mean we'll get more 349 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: into this in a in a second, but I mean, 350 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: it's just not in our culture anymore. To to have 351 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: multi generational households, to have grandparents living with us. I 352 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: think that is changing a little bit because of things 353 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: like the Great Recession a couple of years ago. I 354 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: think more people are culturally starting to have those multigenerational 355 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: healthholds that aren't coming from a place of just like 356 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: I can't take care of my children, I need to 357 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: give them to my parents. But um, but anyway, it's 358 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: not all terrible. There is stigma, there are health issues 359 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: to worry about, a mental and emotional strain to worry about, 360 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: but it's not all terrible. There was a two thousand 361 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: seven study in the Journal of Social Issues that found 362 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: that greater cohesion with grandparents actually decreased depressive symptoms, particularly 363 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: among grandchildren raised in single parent families. And that's not 364 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: necessarily a cohabitating situation. That could just simply be you 365 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: are a grandchild and have grandparents, but they found that 366 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: it was key having those extra supports in your life. However, 367 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: the study found that that cohesive grandparent relationship reduced oppressive 368 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: symptoms more in the presence of stronger ties to parents. 369 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: So those are two keys. Basically, if you have a 370 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: strong family, you're not going to be as depressed and 371 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: grand parents are a key part of that. Yeah, that 372 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: makes total sense. And along those same lines, there was 373 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: a study that came out in Children and Youth Services 374 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: Review in two thousand nine which highlighted frequent contact, greater 375 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: grandparent involvement, and better parent grandparent relationships as being key 376 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: to kids reports on higher levels of emotional closeness to 377 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: the importance of and respect for their closest grandparents views. Yeah. So, 378 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I would think absolutely if you are in 379 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: a family where the elderly members of that family, the 380 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: grandparents are great ants or whoever, if they're valued, then 381 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: that would make you value other people outside your family too. 382 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like a lot of times 383 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: elderly people in our culture are just like, yeah, get 384 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: out of the way, get out of the way, but 385 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: leave leave me some cookies. Um. There is one place though, 386 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: that stood out in contrast to a lot of what 387 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: we were reading about grandparent custodial situations in the US, 388 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: and that is in China. And in a past podcast 389 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: episode we did talk about how um parenting models in 390 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: China obviously different from American models of parenting, but there's 391 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: a lot of reverence for your elders in Chinese society, 392 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: and as part of that, if you look at China, 393 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: grandparents are far more ingrained in the family unit to 394 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: begin with, and particularly grandmothers as child caregivers. Yeah, and 395 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: this is coming from a really interesting article in The 396 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: Atlantic um that talked about how, according to the Shanghai 397 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: Municipal Population and Family Planning Commission, of Shanghai's young kids 398 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: are being looked after by at least one grandparent, and 399 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: half of those grandparents provide exclusive care. And this is 400 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: a number that's only increasing. And a lot of it 401 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: has to do with economics family like parents moms and 402 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: dad's getting jobs far away earlier retirement age. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, 403 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: a lot of it. There are several reasons why this 404 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: is happening, but like a like Kristen said, a big 405 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: part of it is the fact that it's already sort 406 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: of ingrained in their culture that grandparents are probably going 407 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: to help take care of kids. Yeah. And the story 408 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: in The Atlantic is framed around this grandmother who goes 409 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: she does a double double duty. Uh, in the morning, 410 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: she goes and takes care of her son and daughter 411 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: in law's kids because both parents work from seven am 412 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: to ten pm, and then after they get home, then 413 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: she heads over to her other son's house to take 414 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: care of their kids. And the grandmother talks about how 415 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: she sees it as her duty to support their career trajectories. 416 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: And that does stand out in the way that it's 417 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: not just supporting her son's career trajectories and also her 418 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: daughters in law's career trajectories as well, right, And so 419 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: what I thought was so interesting, especially considering how much 420 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: christ and I have talked about issues of women in 421 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: the workplace and lean in len in gets called out 422 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: specifically in this article by these women. The daughter in 423 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: law um of this this um grandmother who's being focused on, 424 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: talks about how like, yeah, you know, it would be 425 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: great if I could go into work and just say, look, 426 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: I want my quality family time just as much as 427 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: I want my quality career time. But she's like, I 428 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: can't lean in, and so thank goodness, I have my 429 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: husband's mom here to help me take care of these 430 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: kids too when I when I can't be there. And 431 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: she talked about how her own mother, who no longer 432 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: lives in China now lives in Los Angeles, has become 433 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: very Americanized and doesn't want the responsibility of taking care 434 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: of grandkids. Well, because there is a difference between you know, 435 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: American grandparents stereotypically being more hands off in the sense 436 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: that we don't expect them to automatically live with their 437 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: kids or in this case serve as daily daycare for 438 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: their grandchildren. Um. And that was a process that really 439 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: started to happen more so in the fifties when you 440 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: get more urbanization and sort of part of that whole 441 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: American dream thing of having your house, having your family, 442 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: and then seeing your kids off and they go out 443 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: and get their own houses and their own families, and 444 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: then you have this fabulous thing called retirement. And while 445 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: it might have a little bit of empty nest syndrome, 446 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: you're alone in Haran, then you're gonna go retire in Florida, right. 447 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: And so it is more since the post war period 448 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: is more ingrained in our culture that you have the 449 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: nuclear family, which is literally just mom, dad and the kiddos. 450 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: Grandma and grandpa are somewhere else. Um. But you know, 451 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: in China, it's interesting because as they industrialize more and more, 452 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: they're also seeing this rise in families splitting up. So 453 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: it's it's just interesting to look at all the factors 454 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: in play. But one of the things that they talked 455 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: about this article to speaking of leaning in and people 456 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: in business, is that of senior management positions in China 457 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: are held by women. Half of the world's female self 458 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: made billionaires are from China. A lot of women are 459 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: in these high power, high paying positions, whereas in America 460 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: we have, you know, we can't even get paid for 461 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: maternity leave, you know. And it's like so in terms 462 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: of of leaning in and being successful and having having 463 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: it all, quote unquote, nobody can really have it all. 464 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: But Chinese women certainly seem like their career trajectories are 465 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: skyrocketing in comparison, and a lot of these women do 466 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: attribute it to the presence of their you know, grandmothers, 467 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: in particular taking care of the kids, because then you 468 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about the cost of childcare. You 469 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: don't worry I have to worry about finding daycare. There 470 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: are even grandparents schools that apparently have popped up all 471 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: over China, teaching grandparents things such as how to stand 472 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: up to your whining grandchild, and also teaching about to 473 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: understand internet technology, but there's still though this issue. I 474 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: think it has to be in China and the US, 475 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: like where you have this massive aging, older population, but 476 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: you also have all of these kids, and so it's 477 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: almost like both the bottom and top rungs of society 478 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: age wise, that we have this massive need in the 479 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: US for affordable childcare, quality childcare, daycare, etcetera. And in 480 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: the top we have this ever growing, you know, baby 481 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: boomer aging population that also as they get older, is 482 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: needing their own daycare. So that sort of ties me back, 483 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: at least to Linda freed Over at Columbia University saying, Hey, 484 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: you know what, let's apply the grandmother hypothesis to modern 485 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: day society. Let's link up these kids and these grandmothers, 486 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: and it's potentially a win win. Yeah. I mean, I 487 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: think if you're looking at it from that healthy perspective 488 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: of like, we're doing this willingly and we're going to 489 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: benefit each other. And I'm a giving, loving grandmother who's 490 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: gonna take care of a little timmy while moms at work, 491 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: I think that has a lot of benefits. But as 492 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: we've talked about, I think when you're sort of forced 493 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: together because of traumatic family situations well, and they're probably 494 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: understandably situations too, when grandmothers and grandfathers alike have raised 495 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: to their kids and they don't care to raise any 496 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: more kids. Like seeing kids on the you know, their 497 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: grandchildren on holidays is fine, but doing it every single 498 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: day and having to be a parent again when you're 499 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: a bit older. I know that's not an appealing proposition 500 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: for all the grandparents out there, but I think there 501 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: could still be still be more on a community community 502 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: basis of at least maybe more programs set up for 503 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: that kind of totally. I love the idea of that 504 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: program bringing grandparents into schools because you know that one 505 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: study that you talked about from two thousand nine showing that, 506 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, kids who have close relationship with their grandparents 507 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: have greater respect for their grandparents views and opinions and existence. 508 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: And so I think and then that could be extrapolated 509 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: outward to the rest of society, you know, if we're 510 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: getting all lofty and everything, but I mean, I think 511 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: that's great to to get more interaction to not only 512 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: help kids develop a healthy respect for their elders, but 513 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: also to give our elders purpose. I know, like I said, 514 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, my grandfather lost his purpose and so I 515 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: don't know that he would have wanted to go into 516 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: a school and help kids, but he wanted to stay 517 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: involved with everything around him, and so I don't know, 518 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: maybe maybe that could be something that could really help us. Well, 519 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: I'm just saying if there needs to be some kind 520 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: of public awareness campaign for this, just you, I mean, 521 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: the grandmother hypothesis is I mean, there's your marketing right there, tubers. No, 522 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want a tagline, Oh, hey, kids, 523 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: you like your big old brains, thank Grandma. Done, Go 524 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: go play with grandma and thank her if for your 525 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: giant brains. In fact, that you don't have to be 526 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: so scared dying at thirty two because we live long 527 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: thanks to her. Okay, that might be a little bit 528 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: of an aggressive, too aggressive an approach. We'll work on 529 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: the language, will soften the message, we'll stop it. We're 530 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, picture of a clay of cookies, 531 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: cookie too. But but now we want to hear from 532 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: listeners about their grandmothers, their grandparents. Do you or have 533 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: you lived with a g and parents and what is 534 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: the role of the grandparents or grandparents like in your family, 535 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: let us know your thoughts and hey, if there are 536 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: any grandparents listening to us, Happy grandparents Day and thanks 537 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: for being awesome. Write to us too because we'd like 538 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: to hear from you as well. Mom and Stuff at 539 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com is our email address, and 540 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: you can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 541 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we got a couple of messages 542 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So we've got a 543 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: couple of letters here about our Science of BFFs episode, 544 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: and this one is from Abby, who writes your podcast 545 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 1: on the Science of best Friendship. Came at a fitting 546 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: time since my bff Allison got married August eighteen. I'm 547 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: immensely blessed to have a lifetime best friend. We've been 548 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: palace since I came into the world twenty seven years ago, 549 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: several weeks after she was born. Our moms became friend 550 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: when they're pregnant with us, and our entire families have 551 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: been friends ever since. Second families to each other. Our 552 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: brothers have been close all their lives as well. We 553 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 1: were to school together, grew up in the same church 554 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: where college roommates, traveled to Europe together. You get the picture. 555 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: Growing up, we were regularly called by each other's names, 556 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: and we had more than one of those best friend 557 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: necklaces you mentioned. Allison introduced me to stuff mom never 558 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: told you, and we enjoyed connecting over the podcast. Like 559 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: your episodes on the d i Y Revival of Craft, 560 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: she has been amazingly artistic, taking after her parents and 561 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: creates for a living. Her handmaid felt a decor can 562 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: be found at House of Moss on Etsy Shameless Plug. 563 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: She married her love Eric this week and to our delight, 564 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: war mine now our wedding dress, and would you believe 565 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: it fit perfectly? Yes, it was meant to be. The 566 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: honor was all mine to be her maid of honor, 567 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: and the wedding was just right, so meaningful, beautiful and fun. 568 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: Her husband, Eric is a terrific man who supports her well. 569 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: I love them both dearly. Would you give Alison Eric 570 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: a celebratory marriage shout out on the podcast? It would 571 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 1: delight them and me, So here you go. Alison and Eric, 572 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: congratulations on your nuptials, and to Allison and Abbey, congratulations 573 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: as well on your lifetime of bff ship. So sweet, 574 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: and they shared a wedding dress you found your person. 575 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: I know that I love friends all like a deli 576 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: penguins with friends. They don't have wings. No, they can't 577 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: fly also, which is also similar to penguins. But anyway, 578 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from Lauren who said 579 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: that towards the end of our podcast about BFFs, we 580 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: mentioned that women should also look for female friends outside 581 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: of their age window, and she says I couldn't agree more. 582 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: One of my best female friends over sixty five, and 583 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 1: I don't know what I would do without her. Right 584 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: out of college, I landed a job teaching middle school 585 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: English at a person de just private school in North Carolina. 586 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: I was seven hours from my parents, three hours from 587 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: my boyfriend, no fiance, and I literally only knew one 588 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: person in the city where I lived. A few weeks 589 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: into my job, the school's administrative assistant asked me if 590 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: I would house it and take care of her aging 591 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: adorable husky, and thus a friendship was born. We have 592 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: shared countless bottles of wine together, helped one another with 593 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: our respective guy problems, and she even threw a bridle 594 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: shower for me. I recently relocated to Dallas, Texas, so 595 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: my fiance and I can attend law and medical school. 596 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: Saying goodbye to my friend was definitely full of tears. 597 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: My friend, or my North Carolina Mom as I like 598 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: to call her, still talk weekly. I strongly encourage young women, 599 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: especially those who have just relocated, to keep an open 600 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: mind when looking for new female friends. The next classy 601 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: older woman you come across might be your new best friend. 602 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: Plus they can definitely teach you how to pick an 603 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: excellent bottle of wine and how to arrange a rocking 604 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: bouquet of flowers. Ah So, thanks Lauren, that was a 605 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,919 Speaker 1: great email. Both great emails to get so many great 606 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: emails and if you want to send us a great email, 607 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: Mom sa of it. How stuff Works dot com is 608 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: where you can do it and for links to all 609 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: of our social media blog post, videos, and podcasts, there's 610 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: one place to go, and it's stuff Mom Never Told 611 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: You dot com. For more on this and thousands of 612 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com