1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: I guys wanted to take a minute to check in 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: on the state of the housing market as we head 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: into twenty twenty three, and as with all things in 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: the economy, the picture is kind of mixed and a 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: little bit complicated. Let's go and put this up on 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: the screen, this analysis from the Wall Street Journal. They say, 7 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: why this housing downturn is not like the last one? 8 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: If you could leave this up on the screen, because 9 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: there's a chart there on the screen that you can 10 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: see the levels of equity this time around, even as 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: we have experienced a huge housing downturn, including a decline 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: in prices that started sometime around May. But you have 13 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: much more equity with homeowners, so there are fewer people 14 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: who are in the category of potential foreclosure. You have 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: people with a lot more sort of wiggle room in 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: terms of their financial picture. Now, on the one hand, 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: that's good. Obviously you don't want people losing their homes 18 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: being foreclosed on. That's like a seminal event event in 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: people's lives. It's extraordinarily traumatic. It's horrific. People still have 20 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: the scars and are still recovering from what happened last 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: time around. On the other hand, the reason why people's 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: equity is so high compared to their debt is because basically, 23 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: at this point, you have to be rich in order 24 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: to be able to purchase a home. So people who 25 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: were able to purchase homes, who had the massive amount 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: of cash they needed upfront in order to get their 27 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: foot in the door and compete with private equity and 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: all these permanent capital players who are in the markets 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: by definition are sort of financially better off. So it 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: may mean that you're not going to have a mass 31 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: foreclosure crisis, but you have another crisis on the other 32 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: side of a total lack of housing affordability, which has 33 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: obviously been wildly exacerbated and intentionally so by the FED 34 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: and their interest rate hiking. Yeah, and I was actually 35 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: looking right now as predicted, even with the rise of 36 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: interest rates and the tripling and quadrupling in some cases 37 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: of some of the payments that the average person would 38 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: have to make, the average price of a home is 39 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: only dropped by like one or two percent on the 40 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: overall index. So the price is staying stagnant while the 41 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: cost is going up through the roof. So it is 42 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: a complete crisis of affordability. Yeah, I don't really know 43 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: what exactly people can do at this point, Like and 44 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: even we've talked about this well with the interest rates, 45 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: where they are actually disincentivizing even building new housing because 46 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: a lot of builders are like, nobody's going to buy 47 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: in this environment, or they're not going to buy as much. 48 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: People are not going to leave their old house and 49 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: buy a new one and finance it. So it means 50 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: that both the price remains high and housing stock is 51 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: actually arguably going to shrink as a result of all 52 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: of this, right, And it's not just they're anticipating like, Okay, 53 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: people aren't going to buy, which is correct, and they 54 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: won't be able to fetch as high of quite as 55 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: high of a price because you know, people won't be 56 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: able to afford it. But they also have their own 57 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: borrowing costs that they have to factor in as well. 58 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: So as interest rates go up, if they are going 59 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: to borrow in order to finance a big development or 60 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: a big project, they're much less likely to do that 61 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: just because it's monetarily makes a lot less sense. So 62 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: what the FED is doing right now really is exacerbating 63 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: the one of the core issues in terms of the 64 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: housing market, which is just a lack of stock, and 65 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: especially a lack of affordable housing stock. I remember seeing 66 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: some statistics about how much of our housing now is 67 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, basically like the sort of suburban mcmanagers the 68 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: like upper middle class housing is the bulk of what 69 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: is ultimately created, or if you're in an urban setting 70 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: like the more high end condos, there is so little 71 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: what used to be called like a starter home. There's 72 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: so little of that stock being created and which remains 73 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: in existence. So for young people, for new families trying 74 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: to get their foot in the market, this is a massive, 75 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: massive issue that you know, there's no obvious solution in sight, 76 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: and I do think it's going to continue to sort 77 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: of royal our politics, and I don't think policymakers, I 78 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: don't think that the press has really paid sufficient attention 79 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: to it. Because having a place of your own and 80 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: having that sort of stability and security from having home ownership, 81 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: the type of wealth that you're able to build then 82 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: over generations. I mean, this is really the class to 83 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: that sort of the path to that sort of middle 84 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: class prosperity. Having that cut off is really a seminal 85 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: moment in terms of American economic history. It really changes 86 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: our conceptions of ourselves, our conceptions of our society, and 87 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's going to continue to be a 88 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: massive issue going forward into twenty twenty three. Absolutely right. 89 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: It's one of those undercurrent sleepers that is going to 90 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: explode one day. And some of us told you so. 91 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: All right, guys, So turns out the Pentagon has failed 92 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: an audit again. Let's go and put this up on 93 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 1: the screen, they say. Here, Defense spending reaches record high 94 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: as Pentagon fails its audit for the fifth time. Now, 95 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: let me give you the backstory here. Back in nineteen ninety, 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: apparently Congress passed a law that directed all federal agencies 97 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: to produce regular audited financial statements. I'm reading from the 98 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: piece here. More than thirty years later, the Department of 99 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: Defense is the only agency that has never passed a 100 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: single audit, and now the Pentagon has just announced that 101 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: they have failed their fifth attempt. By the way, these 102 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: audits themselves are tremendously expensive, enormous undertaking, acquiring sixteen hundred 103 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: auditors that costs back in twenty nineteen about four hundred 104 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: and twenty eight million dollars to conduct, and another four 105 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: and seventy two million to try to fix the problems 106 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: that the audit uncovered. Obviously, that attempt to fix the 107 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: issues is completely failed. So as audit costs, they say, 108 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: approach a billion dollars a year with no meaningful change. 109 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: The conclusion is obvious audits are not enough to bring 110 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: the Pentagon's book keeping back into order. Much more than 111 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: incremental improvement is needed to create transparency. But for now 112 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: the Department of Defense seems intent to try and keep 113 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: trying the same thing and hope for different results. This 114 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: comes on the heels of Congress passing an eight hundred 115 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: and fifty eight billion dollar budget for the Department of Defense, 116 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: and when they can't pass it pass an audit, it 117 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: just shows you this is a gigantic slush fund. This 118 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: is a higher defense budget than at any point during 119 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: the Cold War. It gets voted for overwhelmingly. There are 120 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: a few handful of uh defense of of uh what's 121 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: the word I'm looking for objectors? Yes, to the massive 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: amounts that get sent spent here. Ultimately, and there is 123 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: an effort by a group by Parson group of eight 124 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: senators to pass something called the Audit. The Pentagon Act 125 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: would require any entity within the Department of Defense that 126 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: fails on audit to surrender one percent of its budget 127 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: a year, So at least there would be some incentive 128 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: for them to get their act together and have some 129 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: sort of transparency and accountability. But you know, SACER, this 130 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: is one of these stories that it'll be a blip 131 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: on the radar. It will not even really get covered 132 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: by the mainstream press because it happens so routinely. But 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: we should continue to be shocked and out raged that 134 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: this much money is going to an agency that cannot 135 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: even account for where the funds are ultimately, And the 136 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: crazy thing is it's still costing a billion dollars a 137 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: year to keep doing these failed audits, so clearly the 138 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: entire system has to be revamped. And yeah, look, I 139 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: mean we should all care, like, if you're gonna spend 140 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: all this, you're going to spend nearly the GDP of 141 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: like several nations combined, Like you should at least find 142 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: out if it's being spent properly and or well, like 143 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: are we getting anything for this? Something has always been 144 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: one of my major criticisms too, of the military industrial 145 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: Like it's not even they're particularly good at what they 146 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: do right at the F thirty five program or many 147 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: of these others which have had massive cost overruns without 148 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: being actually effective, and then the Chinese will just steal 149 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: it and do it for like one twentieth of the cost. 150 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: I'm well, hold on a second, like, what did we 151 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: just do here? I don't know. It's a failure on 152 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: so many levels, and of course it doesn't get any 153 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, even the close the amount of coverage that 154 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: it deserves, even from the so called defense press, like 155 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: they just look past the stuff. Yeah, mostly because they 156 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: funded Yeah, that's right, and they just accept it as like, oh, 157 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: well that's the fifth but this is old news. They 158 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: failed an audit for five years now, so what's the 159 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: big deal. It's like, well, that in itself is a 160 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: big deal. That's a huge, huge story. And so there 161 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: is no way ultimately to have any sort of accountability 162 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: on an agency when you are just willing to funnel 163 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: them billions of billions they can account for it, and 164 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: so of course they're not going to get their act 165 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: together when they can just go and get an even 166 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: larger defense budget increase the next time around. This is 167 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: bipartisan Republicans, Democrats really doesn't matter, and the fact that 168 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: there is no sort of shock and outrage over this 169 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: is itself extraordinarily telling. Ultimately, absolutely, Hey, folks, I'm Ken Clippinstein. 170 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: This is breaking points to the Intercept edition. I'm joined 171 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: today by my colleague, investigative reporter for The Intercept, Dan 172 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: bogus Law, who broke a very important story a couple 173 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: weeks back that we know significantly more about today that 174 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: we want to talk to you about. That story was 175 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: about the War Powers resolution advanced by Bernie Sanders and 176 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: ultimately blocked by the White House. What we know now 177 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: that we didn't know then was a lot of what 178 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: was going on behind the scenes in Congress, how this 179 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: story came to pass, how that resolution was killed, what 180 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: its current status is, which we're talking with Dan about today. 181 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: And what's really interesting about all this to me is 182 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: the fact that Dan really caused this entire firestorm to 183 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: take place by just walking up to Senator Sanders asking 184 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: him about the status of that legislation. Sanders made a 185 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: comment saying, yes, I have the votes for it, We're 186 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and pursue it. Unbeknownst to us, 187 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: or at least to me, and probably much of the 188 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: public at the time was the fact that Bernie actually 189 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: had no plans to do that, and that that question 190 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: actually triggered this entire range of events. So, Dan, can 191 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: you tell us how that happened? And really, why are 192 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: media not doing this more imposing these questions and because 193 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: this is really pressed at its best is posing questions, 194 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: putting pressure on senators. And I think what we saw 195 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: here was he really strong armed Senator Sanders by just 196 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: asking him about the status of that thing he's talked 197 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: about before and got him to have to do something 198 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, well, I think that, you know, a 199 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: lot of what you see with congressional reporting is this 200 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: sort of horse race to break small crumbs of news 201 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: to beat out other large news outlets. For you know, 202 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: information is probably gonna come out in one respect, one 203 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: way or another. And so for me, the really exciting 204 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: thing about congressional reporting is the opportunity to kind of 205 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: do your background research, talk to staffers, try to get 206 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: as much intel about what's happening behind the scenes as possible, 207 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and then you know, go into the hill with a 208 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: game plan to try to ferret out information that you 209 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: know is simply not going to come from mainstream. Well, 210 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: you're describing just sounds like the job of journalism to me, 211 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: Why does that not happen? Why was there no one 212 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: else of the entire press pool. I mean, your a 213 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: relatively young guy, you're still fairly new to congression reporting. 214 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: Why were you the first person to walk up to him? 215 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: My understanding from our conversations offset was that the centator 216 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: was just standing there and he thought, hey, well here's 217 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: an important question. I'll just ask him it. Why did 218 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: no one else do that? It's shocking you when you're 219 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: in there and you see US senators walking by and 220 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: you have these journalists waiting in the wings, and sometimes 221 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: they'll just let you know, a senator walk right by 222 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: them because they're sort of waiting to pounce on, you know, 223 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: Appropriations chair for you know, spending bill, or the Foreign 224 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: Relations chair if there's a you know, a foreign policy 225 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: debate leading the news cycle. But really what you see 226 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: is just these competing factions to break news that's going 227 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: to come out one way or another, and you know, 228 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: critical piece of legislation like a a bill like the 229 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: War Powers Resolution, which is taking power away from the president, 230 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: and you know, trying to create some mode of accountability 231 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: for another nation which has been waging a war that 232 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: has led millions to the brink of starvation. There's no 233 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: there's there's no appetite, there's no appeal that's not running 234 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: the news cycle, and so these critical issues just get 235 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: completely pushed to the wayside, and it's I do think 236 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: it's a sort of abdication of responsibility for reporters. At 237 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: the same time, I think the incentive structure for corporate 238 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: media is such that you know, they're all trying to 239 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: beat one another out for their editors to break that chrome, 240 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: that kernel of news before everyone else. So, I mean, 241 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: how much of this is political? Because I know that 242 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: it's very clear that the White House didn't want the 243 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: War Powers Resolution to pass, and just to give folks 244 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: a sense of what that is, you allated to it before. 245 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: It's basically making it so that Congress has say in 246 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: what the White House decides with regard to military conflicts 247 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: wars that we become engaged with, which to me is 248 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: like so uncontroversial. I mean, this was the whole point 249 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: of the Constitution is the president is not a king. 250 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: We're going to have checks and balances, We're going to 251 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: have different in theory now different different branches of government, 252 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: and the decision to go to war is very explicitly 253 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: the domain of Congress. So it's crazy to me that 254 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: we even need legislation for this. But be that as 255 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: it may. The White House began whipping votes, as you reported, 256 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: against it to try to stop this ultimately succeeded in 257 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: doing so. Senator Sander says he's going to try again, 258 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: and from sources that I know in Congress, that's not 259 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: a bluff. He really is going to reintroduce this. And 260 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: that's what makes this relevant now to folks is that 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: you know they're going to introduce this again, and the 262 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: question is going to be what is the language going 263 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: to look like, will be the same, what will it 264 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: change for him to try to get support? But this 265 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: ball is very much up in the air. How do 266 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: you see media responding to to the second bide at 267 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: the Apple when they bring this back. I mean, I 268 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: hope that it's been I hope that my reporting has 269 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: kind of re elevated it into the consciousness of uh oh, 270 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: clearly no one was talking about it. And again, this 271 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: is the reporters core constitutional question. Sure, but I think 272 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, the Way has basically said, you know, 273 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: we don't want to deal with this, We don't want 274 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: this in the in the in the news cycle. You know, 275 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: we have other priorities. And it's shocking given the fact 276 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: that you know, Saudi leadership has walked all over Biden 277 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: and Lucy and the football over and over again. And 278 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: this is one more instance. I mean this, this had 279 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: bipartisan buy in. You know, you had senators and representatives 280 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: from both parties saying, this is this is the least 281 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: we can do to pull uh, you know, military support 282 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: back in this one instance. And you know, the bidendministration 283 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: said that's too much. You know, that's that's seeding too 284 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: much control, despite the fact that that it's in clean 285 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: are over and over and over again that Saudi Arabia 286 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: has no intention of acting in good faith and negotiating 287 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: in good faith you know with the US. Yeah, that's 288 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: something we've covered pretty extensively here at the intercept. Another 289 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: issue that media doesn't like to touch. And you know, 290 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: I can speculate as to why, but the reality is 291 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: the administration is getting walked all over. They're making oil 292 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: production decisions that just fly in the face of not 293 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: just norms, in the past, but specifically what the administration 294 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: is asking for, and so you would think that this 295 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: would be a layup. You know, that's to say nothing 296 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: the fact that the White House itself has said that 297 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: there are going to be cool consequences. You report in 298 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: your story that the Senate Foreign Relations Chair, very powerful figure, 299 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: Senator Bob Menendez, said that we were going to stop 300 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: military sport. Here's the prime opportunity to go ahead and 301 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: do that uphold you know, one of the core components 302 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: of the Constitution on an issue that I got to 303 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: say is really bipartisan. I know a lot of conservatives 304 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: in the military and in the national security world, not 305 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: to mention just ordinary people that are you know, completely 306 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: on our side in terms of being very opposed to 307 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: this war and our involvement on this war, which, as 308 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: you said, has added devastating and just profound humanitarian effect. 309 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: Millions of people food and secure, going hungry, thousands of 310 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: children maimed, as the UN pointed out last week. So 311 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: this just seems like a lamp. Why is the White 312 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: House whipping against it, and why are Senate Democrats not 313 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: standing behind Sanders in this proposal? Well, you know, I 314 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: think you know, when White House calls you up and 315 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: tells you to do something, you know, people often do it. 316 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean I've I've had the White House called me 317 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: up and tell me not to run a story, and 318 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: I revel in telling them, no, I'm going to run 319 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: with the story. Is this why media doesn't ask these 320 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: things and put these things and put these things on 321 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: the I mean, I think I think there's there is 322 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: an extension of that logic. I mean, you see these 323 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: reporters forming these really cozy relationships with senators. You know, 324 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: there's there's no aggression, there's no hostility. You see their 325 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: body language when the approach senators, the total reverence and 326 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: willingness to to take you know, no comment for an 327 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: answer instead of this is so interesting to hear this perspective. Yeah, 328 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean it's shocking to me. I mean, these people 329 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: are supposed to be representing Americans, they're supposed to be 330 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: working for us, and so the notion that you know, 331 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: and and it worked tirelessly to build, uh, these protections, 332 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: these these senses of awe and fear and grandeur. And 333 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, if you have the privilege of being accredited 334 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: press and you have the ability to push them on 335 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: on obvious conflicts of interests, or push them on moments 336 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: where they are prioritizing their donors or their political fortunes 337 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: above the interests of the American people, and you don't 338 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: take those opportunities. I mean, it's shocking to me. I mean, 339 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: there is there's so few people who have that type 340 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: of access, and to be cowed by these people who 341 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: are public servants never ceases to amaze me. It's incredible 342 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: changing gears for just a minute. You more recently had 343 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: a story on a piece of legislation before Congress now 344 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: that would put protections in place for journalists that report 345 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: on classified and information to protect them from being subpoenaed 346 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: by courts under various conditions. And that again sounds like 347 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: something that's pretty uncontroversial to me in terms of maybe 348 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: in Washington, maybe it's controversial, but across the country, I 349 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: would imagine most people would be open to something like that. 350 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: You had heard through your sources that Senator Grassley had 351 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: a role alongside Senator Cotton and stopping that piece of 352 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: legislation from advancing. You just walked up to them, just 353 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: like the standards war powers example. Put the question to 354 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: him any more or less cop to it. So once 355 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: again I ask you, why are you the one doing 356 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: these things? Weren't other reporters to get I picture them 357 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: being a little more evasive and clever about watching these things, 358 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: and they just aren't. Well, I think you there's different spreads. 359 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's different uh uh, you know, overarching 360 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: pressures that these reporters face from the corporate structure of 361 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: of their outlets. I think some are much more egregious 362 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: and provide far less flexibility than others, and there's a 363 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: pressure to you know, try to squeeze out you know, 364 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: whatever breaking news about Omnibus spending, uh or whatever that's possible. 365 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: But again, I'm always shocked sort of like you know, 366 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: I remember on the Hill yesterday, I saw Senator Feinstein, 367 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, going to the elevator and you know, at 368 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: this point, her staff basically, you know, runs the entire operation. 369 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: You know, she's she's really not all there and yet 370 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: it's just incredible, but she's but she's a US center, right, 371 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: And it was shocking watching these reporters kind of glance 372 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: over at her instead of seeing that as an opportunity 373 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: to press someone, you know, and to you know, try 374 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: to highlight, you know, the fact that you know, here 375 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: is again one of the most powerful people in the 376 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: world walking by and an opportunity to try to get 377 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: information and at the very least highlight you know, the 378 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: current state that she's in. You know. Instead, it's like, oh, well, 379 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: like we can't get anything on the Omnibus out of her, 380 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, we can't get anything on this news cycle. 381 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: So they just got to like her chief of staff 382 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: and so yeah or or just whatever, we're just completely 383 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, ignore her. And I think, yeah, I just 384 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: think that there's a increasingly perverse set of incentives. You know, 385 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: with the speed of the news cycle and with you know, 386 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: the competition between corporate outlets, there's just really not an 387 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: incentive to push centers in this way. It's a shame 388 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: because it doesn't have to be that way. As you've shown. 389 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: You can just post things, walk up to them. They're 390 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: not cordone behind glass walls or anything. They're not hiding away, 391 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: and I mean they're just out there and you can 392 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: walk up to them. That's what's extraordinary to me is 393 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: that that suggests that they face so little pressure they 394 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about hiding these guys behind walls 395 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: of aids and things like that. It's just because nobody 396 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: comes up to them and asks these things. Yeah, yeah, 397 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: it's it's it's shocking, but it's also somewhat shocking too, 398 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: especially some of these more seasoned people. You know, the 399 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: sort of caution and reverence they hold is this like 400 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: a west wing sort of like you got to show 401 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: this deference and they're just in awe of the of 402 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: the of the stature of the office. I think so. 403 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of these people, uh, 404 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: you know, have spent their entire lives, you know, dreaming 405 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: about being able to talk to septagenarian uh you know, 406 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: lawmakers and and sort of bow down before them. But 407 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: I think that you know, there is this conditioning then 408 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: that happens. You know, there's conditioning. You know, there's tremendous 409 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: condition to try to make it seem like these people 410 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: can't be held accountable ever, and that these people don't 411 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: don't even try for us, you know, and that they 412 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: are uh in transigen and they know exactly what is 413 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: going on, They know exactly what they're saying at all times. 414 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of them have no idea about 415 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: their policy portfolios. You know, so if you push them 416 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: on that, that's their job, right, that is what you know, 417 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: that is what they were elected to do, and so 418 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: they have a responsibility to answer your questions. And you 419 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: know that that that applies to all sorts of things, 420 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: not just whatever's dominating the news cycle. Okay, well this 421 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: is really helpful and insightful look at I think why 422 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: congressional reporting uh doesn't produce what what you know, people 423 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: really need and what would be very interesting. So that's 424 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: Dan Bogoslav the Intercept. Thanks so much for joining us, 425 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: Thanks kidd. Time now for our weekly partnership segment with 426 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: our great friends. At the lever of joining us today 427 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: is Matthew Cunningham cut great to see as always, Matthew, 428 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me on Crystal. I really 429 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Of course. So you have this great look, 430 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: let's go and put it up on the screen. On 431 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: the potential infection of the crypto collapse into the rest 432 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: of the economy. Your headline here is crypto Bros want 433 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: your four O one K subhad. Despite fcx's collapse, a 434 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: lawsuit linked the exchange's investor is trying to force regulators 435 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: to allow crypto into the retirement market. What did you 436 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: find here, Matthew. Yeah, so we knew about this lawsuit 437 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: that was trying to overturn a great guidance from the 438 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: Department of Labor that just said, basically, if you're a 439 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: fiduciary like Fidelity and you're adding crypto to your four 440 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: RO and K lineup, you better watch out. And so 441 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: that was what the guidance said, and immediately there was 442 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: a lawsuit. And what we revealed is that the company 443 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: behind this lawsuit for us all and say case Services 444 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: company is also backed by Ribbit Capital, which is one 445 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: of ftx's backers as well. And then we go into 446 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: the whole broader problem, which is that crypto is highly speculative, 447 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: subject to huge price wings, doesn't have any underlying value 448 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: like stock in a blue chip company or bonds in 449 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: a blue chip company, and so really has no place 450 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: in a four owing K lineup. But the largest fourrowing 451 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: K service provider, Fidelity, has started to do that, and 452 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: that's why it's all the more important that the Department 453 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: of Labor be aggressive on this matter. So I have 454 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: obviously been distressed about the people who have been hurt 455 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: by crypto's collapse, who thought that they were getting in 456 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: on the ground floor of something that was new and exciting, 457 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: that was going to bring them sort of stability and 458 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: prosperity into their lives, and who have really been hurt 459 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: by this. But I think the silver lining is that 460 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: it happened when it did because there has not been 461 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: a lot of broader economic contagion, precisely because these cryptosecurities 462 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: hadn't been integrated into things like for a one case. 463 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: Because one thing we've learned from previous financial collapses is 464 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: once you get big enough, once you're integrated into all 465 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: facets of the economy, then guess what, you're too big 466 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: to fail. And when you collapse, regulators don't just and 467 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: lawmakers don't just let you collapse. They then go in 468 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: and bail you out. This seems to me to be 469 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: one piece of a broader scheme in the crypto world 470 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: to get themselves integrated into the mainstream economy so that 471 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: they would have those same types of fail safe protections 472 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: as the big banks do. Yeah, and that's what we 473 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: go So Sam bankman Free was on this Bloomberg podcast 474 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: earlier this year where he basically admits that his whole 475 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: strategy is to get a huge amount of people's retirements money. 476 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: He calls it locked up money. He doesn't specifically say 477 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: it's retirement money, but that's the implication of what he's 478 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: saying to drive up the price of an asset that, 479 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: again fundamentally has no value. So, I mean the closest 480 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: analogs to crypto are gold, or platinum or silver, all 481 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: of which have major, highly important industrial usages in addition 482 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: to kind of their historic value as a precess metal. 483 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: None of that applies to crypto. It's indescribably more speculative 484 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: than even the most speculative assets. Gold is not an 485 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: appropriate investment, I believe for a four to one care 486 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: or retirement plan, and crypto is many orders of magnitude riskier. Yeah, 487 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: I think that's very well said. Who are the lawmakers 488 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: that have been carrying water for crypto in this town? Yeah? So, 489 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: I mean Cynthia Lummis and Senator Kirsten Gillibrand have been 490 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: the main champions. Lummis is a crypto investor. We're planning 491 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: on digging into her personal financial relationships with the crypto industry. 492 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: More at levernews dot com and Senator Jillibrand is from 493 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: New York, and I think that the main reason why 494 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: she's so interested in this is because the same large 495 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: New York based banks like Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan 496 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: that really were behind the two thousand and eight financial crisis, 497 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: really see a huge opportunity in crypto. There's very large 498 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: fees that can be gained from it, There's large a 499 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: huge new customer base that can emerge from the crypto market, 500 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: and that's what the big banks are really trying to do. 501 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: And I think Senator Jilli brand has really always seen 502 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: Wall Street as part of one of her core constituencies, 503 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: and I think that more than anything, that's it's showing 504 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of how interested Wall streed is in this latest scam, 505 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: and I think really also undercuts arguments about how crypto 506 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: is disruptive or a threat to the establishment in any way, 507 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: because I think, you know, the senator from New York 508 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: would not be champaoning championing crypto if if it wasn't 509 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: any way a threat to the establishment. That is such 510 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: a great point another question for you. I see some 511 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: efforts to paint SBF like he's this sort of like 512 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: soul bad actor rather than emblematic of an industry that's 513 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: basically built on fraud and scams. Do you see in 514 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: DC has the downfall of SBF put a chill through 515 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: some of the greater crypto enthusiasts on the Hill. In 516 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: addition to Senator Jillibrand and Senator Senator Loomis, there have 517 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: been others, of course, who've taken a lot of cash 518 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: from various crypto players. There was a group of lawmakers 519 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: who I think you guys were the ones that reported 520 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: on wrote a letter basically saying like, hey, sec let's 521 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: let this Sam Bankman freed guy. He's a great guy. 522 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: Don't take a look at what he's doing over there 523 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: at FTX. Has there been a rethinking of that posture 524 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: towards the industry overall or are they seeing it more 525 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: as just sort of one bad apple. I think that 526 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: the biggest roadblock this is this investigation into Sam Bankman freed. 527 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: So I think when it was just the collapse, before 528 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: the arrest, I think that you basically saw this, there 529 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: was no impact on Capitol Hill. But now that he's 530 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: been arrested and there's this investigation into his political straw 531 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: donor scheme, that has implicated some people like Sean mckelwey. 532 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: I think that now you're going to see much greater 533 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: scrutiny of the crypto contributions to Congress, and as a result, 534 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: a slowing down of any type of pro crypto regulation 535 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 1: that helps integrate it into people's retirement funds. I think 536 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: you're going to see that swing done because Sam Bakman 537 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: Fried was the largest donor from the crypto industry on 538 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: the Democratic side and potentially on the Republican side as 539 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: well due to his dark money contributions. Yeah, and it's 540 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: clear that prosecutors are now examining those contributions, and as 541 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: a result, I think that, yeah, the zeiitgeist has slowed significantly. 542 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: But to your point, when it was just the collapse 543 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: and not before the arrest, I think it was status quo. 544 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: At you wow, I mean that political piece. I know 545 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: you guys are going to continue to follow up on 546 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: and report on because I'm very interested in that. I'm 547 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: interested in who got money from him. I'm interested in 548 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: Some of the allegations are that there were corporate contributions 549 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: using stolen customer funds going to these politicians. There are 550 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: allegations that they were using straw donors. So there are 551 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: a lot of other pieces to come into place here 552 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: and sort of players and names to be revealed. So 553 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: I know you guys will be keeping your eye on 554 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: that as I will be as well. H Right, I'm 555 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor in chief of the Real 556 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: News Network and host of the podcast Working People, And 557 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: this is the art of class war on breaking points. 558 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: There are a lot of businesses out there that claim 559 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: to be progressive, that claim to be inclusive and responsible, 560 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: and that claim to care deeply about their employees. And 561 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: make no mistake, marketing yourself as a progressive and socially 562 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: conscientious company can be very lucrative and it can help 563 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: you secure a loyal customer base. But as we have 564 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: seen time and time again, you really see a company 565 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: these true colors. You see how committed they really are 566 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: to their ostensibly progressive values when their workers band together 567 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 1: and say we're forming a union from Starbucks, waging a 568 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: scorched earth union busting campaign, firing union organizers left and right, 569 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: to beloved vegetarian staple Amy's Kitchen shutting down an entire 570 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: California plant earlier this year, where workers were organizing. Many 571 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: so called progressive companies have set their public image on 572 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: fire and shown us all who they really are in 573 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: their ruthless efforts to crush their workers back into subservience. 574 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: Another nominally progressive brand with a seriously tarnished reputation that 575 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: I've reported on at the Real News is the vegan 576 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: meat alternative company No Evil Foods. In twenty twenty, workers 577 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: famously tried to unionize with the United Food and Commercial 578 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 1: Workers during a pandemic at No Evil's main production plant 579 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: in Asheville, North Carolina, and management infamously and successfully busted 580 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: up that union drive, only to turn around a year 581 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: later and thank the workers who had gotten the company 582 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: through COVID by abruptly shutting down the plant, moving to 583 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: a new state, and laying everyone off with no severance 584 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: pay well. Earlier this year, on the Evolved CpG podcast 585 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: Sadra Schedel, co founder and CEO of No Evil Foods, 586 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: reflected openly on the union drive at the Ashville plant 587 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: and spoke about some of the lessons management has learned 588 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: along the way. Let's take a listen. At some point 589 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: in that process, you know, we thought we were building 590 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: this company that had this culture. We actually won an 591 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: award in twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, I can't 592 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: remember now it's late twenty twenty as the best startup 593 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: to work for in our area because of you know, 594 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: the culture that we built. But despite all of that, 595 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: our team did have interest in forming a union. I know, 596 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: we had a very we're a very small company, and 597 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: we were trying to get a fairly substantial investment in 598 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: a new manufacturing facility off the ground. You know, they're 599 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: trying to scale up into this new space, which had 600 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: a lot more overhead than when we previously had. We 601 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: were still not profitable by quite a long shot. We 602 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: had a cash burn of you know, hundreds of thousands 603 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: of dollars every month. As we were trying to scale 604 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: up and a ramp into this manufacturing Our team grew 605 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: from about sixteen to sixty overnight, just this rapid kind 606 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: of critical point of growth and change for our company. 607 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: And you know, at the same time, we're bringing up 608 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: to raise more money and investors and some of our 609 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 1: board members are staying to us, you know, we've we've 610 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: never seen a company with a union raise VC capital 611 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: and that's really that was really scary for us to 612 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: hear being people that were not seasoned entrepreneurs. These are 613 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: the experts that we have in the room too to 614 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: learn from and to take guidance from. And so you know, 615 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: we did hold meetings to not discover, I mean and 616 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: from our perspective at the time, and have learned a 617 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: lot about this movement and a lot about how you know, 618 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 1: power structures and imbalance are at play in these situations 619 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: that we weren't really keyed into at the time. And 620 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: it sounds naive, but it's very true. But we, you know, 621 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 1: held held meetings from our perspective to educate and help 622 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: kind of share the pros and comms of what unionization 623 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: might mean for our company at this stage of our growth. Later, 624 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: we learned that that's you know, termed union busting, and 625 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: it's really frowned upon and we we just didn't know, 626 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's kind of crazy to look 627 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: back on now. You guys know me, I'm a patient, 628 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: understanding guy, and I know that no one's perfect. Everyone 629 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: makes mistakes, I mean, hoost among us hasn't screwed up before, 630 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: and wished we could go back and do things differently 631 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: if we had the chance, And I mean, sadri Chedel 632 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: certainly seems genuine in that clip. If you just stumbled 633 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: upon the interview on YouTube, you'd have no real reason 634 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: to doubt what she's saying there. And maybe she and 635 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: co founder Mike Wolanski and the whole No Evil Foods 636 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: management team truly didn't know that they were union busting 637 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: during those mandatory captive audience meetings that they made workers 638 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: attend at the Ashville plant two years ago. Maybe they 639 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: really did just want to, you know, sit down and 640 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: level with their employees and give them the basic pros 641 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: and cons of unionization so they can make an informed 642 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: decision about whether or not a union was right for them. 643 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: I mean, we just have to take her at her word, right. 644 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: It's not like we were physically there during the captive 645 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: audience meetings that management made workers attend to hear a 646 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: litany of anti union propaganda's speeches. And it's not like 647 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: we have leaked audio recordings from those meetings that we 648 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: could check to see if Shadell's account of events even 649 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: holds up. Oh wait, we totally do. As it just 650 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: so happens. North Carolina is a one party consent state. 651 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: And it just so happens the former no Evil Foods 652 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: employee leaked their recordings of those captive audience meetings to 653 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: me and a few other journalists a couple of years ago, 654 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: And it just so happens that I publish clips from 655 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: the recordings on my podcast two years ago. And it 656 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: just so happens that no Evil Foods tried to abuse 657 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to get the episode of 658 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: Working People permanently taken down, but they failed. The episode 659 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: is still up. So let's go to the tape. So 660 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: here is Shaell speaking to now former employees at no 661 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: Evil Foods during a twenty twenty captive audience meeting at 662 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: the Asheville, North Carolina Plants. UFCW has over three hundred 663 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: and forty million dollars in assets. It brought in two 664 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: hundred and ninety two million dollars in twenty eighteen, and 665 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: it spent or two hundred and seventy eight million dollars. 666 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: So for me, that raises two questions. One how did 667 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: they make two hundred ninety two million dollars? And two 668 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: how did they spend that much money as well? So 669 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: where did the money come from? That's what makes unions 670 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: very unique. And I say this from having worked in 671 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: a union facility before, and I'm promising to say that 672 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: I don't think unions are bad conceptually. I think there's 673 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: a hell of a lot of people and industries that 674 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: work in very shitty ways. I don't think that comparent 675 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: apples to oranges. Saying that this union represents a meat 676 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: packing plant is equivalent. I just don't. So that is 677 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: my personal stance and my personal belief going into this. 678 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: That also raises my thought that unions already need they 679 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: don't provide. With most businesses, you provide a service, or 680 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: do you provide a product? We make plant meat, We 681 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: sell plant meat. That's how we make our money. Our 682 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: customers expect something when they get money, they get a product. 683 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: Unions don't go over make a product, sell a product, 684 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: and they don't provide a guaranteed service. With unions, they 685 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: make their money off of dues. That's it. So how 686 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: does the union keep on making so much money if 687 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: they can't promise anything? How do they get people to 688 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: keep paying paycheck after paycheck? Maybe this is not so, 689 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: this is guarantee. They make it really really really hard 690 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: to stop paying dues. This reminds me of like a 691 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: really shouty GM membership that you just want to get 692 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: out of the stipulations on it are now. I don't 693 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: know about you, but to me, that sure as hell 694 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like someone who didn't know goddamn well that 695 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: they were union busting. So let's talk about this with 696 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: someone who was also there and experienced that not union 697 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: busting firsthand. I'm honored to be joined today on Breaking 698 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: Points by Megan Sullivan, a former employee of No Evil 699 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: Foods who worked at the production plant in Ashville and 700 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: participated in the union drive there. Megan, thank you so 701 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: much for joining us today on Breaking Points. Thank you 702 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Well, 703 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: we really really appreciate you taking the time to chat 704 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: with us, and let's start by introducing you to the 705 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: good Breaking Points viewers and listeners. So could you talk 706 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you did at No Evil 707 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: Foods and what it was like to work there, what 708 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: it was like to be part of that unionization effort, 709 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know if your memory of what 710 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: happened during that union drive syncs up with sadr. Sheha 711 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: Dell's description of events in that interview that she did 712 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: earlier this year. So, I worked for No Evil Foods 713 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: on their production line, which included making the product, packaging, 714 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: and boxing their vegan food product. And if I'm being honest, 715 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: I truly enjoyed the work itself. I really liked the 716 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: way that place ran as far as like who I 717 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: worked with and what we did on the floor with 718 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: the other rank and file workers. That was one of 719 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: my favorite jobs as far as that goes. But Sadri's 720 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,399 Speaker 1: depiction of events during the union drive is not what 721 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: I would call accurate by any means. When the rank 722 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: and file workers at the Asheville facility filed for a 723 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: union election, No Evil Foods owners waged war on the 724 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: efforts like you name it, captive audience meetings, anti union posters, 725 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: just intimidating vulnerable employees. They're just textbook union busting. And 726 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: they even hired a prominent union busting lawyer, Canstangie. And 727 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: so it's like this, this shit doesn't happen by accidents, right, like, 728 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: like you know more than anybody, they abused the copyright 729 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: law to try to censor your coverage about it. So 730 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,439 Speaker 1: it's just wild to me that she pretends like she's 731 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: this innocent bystander in all of it when she was 732 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: running those meetings. It's it's pretty astounding to me me too. 733 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: And the other like telling thing from that interview is 734 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: she admits before she says, oh, you know, apparently what 735 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: we were doing was called union busting, but we just 736 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: didn't know that. But right before that, she admits that 737 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: they're you know, board members and shareholders were telling them like, 738 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: you're not going to raise money without a union, like 739 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: essentially giving them marching orders to bust the union drive. 740 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: Like so you know, goddamn well, what you were doing. 741 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: You can't have it both ways. You can't pretend like 742 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: you're just some awe shucks startup just trying to figure 743 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: this stuff out and at the same time, you know, like, 744 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, just just actively try to kind of kill 745 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: this union effort so that you can please your you know, 746 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, venture capital backers or future venture capital backers. 747 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: Well it's crazy too because her and the other owner, 748 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: Mike Woollyanski, for the last two years, essentially they've been 749 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: running around saying that it was a free and fair election. 750 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: Any criticism that they were faced with it. They would 751 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: just deny, deny, deny. But as soon as they didn't 752 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: have any employees at that facility to answer to, that's 753 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: when this pivot started to happen where they're saying, oh, well, 754 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: we just didn't know, you know, we know better now, 755 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: we wouldn't do that again. It's because they don't have 756 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: employees to answer to. And so, just to be clear, 757 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: is it say to say that you know? Again, in 758 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 1: that interview, Sadri Schedel claims that they did not know 759 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: that what they were doing was union busting. So I'm 760 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: getting from you that you're calling bullshit on that. And 761 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: again we played the clip. We played the clip from 762 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: one of the captive audience meetings. They seem pretty clear 763 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: about what they're doing in those meetings. Yeah, absolutely there was. 764 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: It was entirely transparent the way that they were just 765 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: busting a union. You know, companies, it's not even just 766 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: no able foods like companies will use this line. We 767 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,320 Speaker 1: just want to have you be informed, we want to 768 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: give you this information. They treat it like this educational sermon. 769 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: They're just trying to tell you not to use your 770 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: collective power. Just what everything she said there was nonsense. Well, 771 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,959 Speaker 1: and you know, like I think, what there are many 772 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: things that infuriate and anger and sadden me about this. 773 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: And you know, obviously I'm not the only one. But 774 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, the last time that we spoke on my podcast, 775 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: Working People, it was right after they closed down the 776 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: Ashville plant, And sadly, if workers had had a union 777 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: at that point, then the founders would not have been 778 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: able to just unilaterally say we're closing. Everyone's laid off, 779 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: no severance pay, sorry, thanks and good luck. Right, if 780 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: you have a union, you have to, like, if you 781 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: have a unionized workforce, you have to negotiate the terms 782 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: of that kind of move. But workers who had labored 783 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: throughout a pandemic, who had saved that company through working 784 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: through a deadly pandemic, and who had had their efforts 785 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: to unionize squashed by the company, were left completely holding 786 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: the bag when Willyanski and Schaedl decided to close that 787 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: plant and move to a new facility in Illinois. So 788 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask, since that was the last time 789 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: that we spoke for viewers and listeners, could you just 790 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: say a little more about what's happened to everyone since then? Like, 791 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: what's happened to the company, and what's happened to your 792 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: co workers. So, yes, the last time we spoke, my 793 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: partner John and I who he was actually fired from 794 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: No Evil Foods as well for his organizing activity. We 795 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: had set up a fundraiser for these people who had 796 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: been laid off, and we were talking to you right 797 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: around the time. We were just you know, trying to 798 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: platform that everywhere and get the word out. We were 799 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: able to raise about thirty five hundred dollars and it 800 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: got split between twelve of the employees there who reached 801 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: out and needed it most. So that was something that 802 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: was really great that we were able to help with 803 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: in the immediate aftermath of that. Of course, time marches on. 804 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, people found new jobs, but the struggle continue. 805 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know as well as I do, the 806 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: struggle continues for the working class. It's not so much 807 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, these people, yes, they were affected by No 808 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: Evil Foods, but it's going to be the same problem 809 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: anywhere that you go working in these service industry industry jobs, 810 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: in these non unionized workplaces. But to answer the rest 811 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: to your question, No Evil Foods did end up moving 812 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: to a co manufacturing facility, in Illinois, where things went 813 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: so horribly wrong that they're now being sued for failing 814 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,719 Speaker 1: to pay over two hundred thousand dollars that they owe 815 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: for their least equipment. So, I mean, that's a whole 816 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: mess of just leaving a trail of destruction everywhere that 817 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: they go. And for the last month, they've been shamelessly 818 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: fundraising to regain shelf space and Whole Foods and open 819 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 1: up their new online store, and they were only able 820 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: to raise about half of their goal. It still stings 821 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: though that they didn't have that kind of enthusiasm for 822 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: the people that they laid off while we were fundraising. 823 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 1: You know, I remember going on and talking to David 824 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: Feldman and being like, hell, help us out with this. 825 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 1: I would collaborate. I hate you guys, but I'll collaborate 826 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: with you on this, Like we should help these workers together. 827 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: We both supposedly care about them, and I was only 828 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: met with radio silence. So really where we're at right 829 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,359 Speaker 1: now with the company is they've been on a tour 830 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: begging for money and they're trying to make a comeback, 831 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: but we don't want that to happen. Well, and on 832 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: just kind of picking up on that and by way 833 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: of I guess rounding us out because I can't keep 834 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,439 Speaker 1: you for too long. But yeah, I mean that's that's 835 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: something that has really stood out to me. Right Listen, 836 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: like I said in the beginning, like I get that 837 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: people make mistakes. I get that, you know, people, you know, 838 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: need to do what they can do to kind of 839 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: like keep their business alive. I would argue that busting 840 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 1: your union drive, treating your workers this way, tarnishing your reputation, 841 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: that's on you. Maybe you wouldn't be in this position 842 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: if you hadn't treated your workers that way. But who 843 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: am I I'm just an outside observer, right, But you're right, 844 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,879 Speaker 1: it did, like you know, really sort of strike an 845 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,240 Speaker 1: odd tone to see, you know, the founders out there 846 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: furiously fundraising at the same time that they're doing interviews 847 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,839 Speaker 1: like the one that we played in the intro where 848 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: they're trying to whitewash, you know, their their shitty history 849 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: of union busting. At the same time that when workers 850 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,399 Speaker 1: they are workers, the workers who got them through a pandemic. 851 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 1: You know, we're told abruptly last year that the plant 852 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: was closing, that everyone was going to be without a 853 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: job all the any benefits that they had accrued and 854 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: that you know, there was no there was going to 855 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: be no severance pay. Like you said, there's a real 856 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: dissonance there between the kind of current fundraising efforts for 857 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: No Evil Foods and the lack of fundraising for those 858 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,799 Speaker 1: employees this time last year or a little earlier who 859 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,839 Speaker 1: really needed help paying rent, you know, and who have 860 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: kids and and all that stuff. And we can't just 861 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: let that go by, right like, you know, yeah, No 862 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,000 Speaker 1: Evil Foods. You know, you gotta do what you got 863 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: to do, but we cannot just let this stand. Right 864 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: If you want to claim that you are both a 865 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: progressive company, that you're that you know you care about 866 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,319 Speaker 1: your workers and everything like that, then you need to 867 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: hold yourself to that standard and the rest of us 868 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: are going to do the same. So, Megan, like in 869 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: that vein, I wonder if you could just say a 870 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: little bit about what people out there can do to help, 871 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, I guess where you see things going from 872 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: here for for No Evil Foods. Yeah, and how we 873 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,240 Speaker 1: can kind of keep that struggle going as you mentioned. 874 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, to me, it's really important not to forget 875 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: what this company did, you know, in them trying to 876 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: kind of rebrand and re emerge. You know, from the 877 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: ashes and all the scandals. You know, facts don't expire. 878 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,280 Speaker 1: You know, what they did is never going to be different, 879 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: and until real accountability, until they actually hold themselves accountable 880 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: and take accountability publicly, I just can't fathom why somebody 881 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: would support this company. And to stay up to date 882 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: on everything you know that no Evil Foods might be doing, 883 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: how they may be treating their workers, and updates like that, 884 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: Moevilfoods dot com is a great resource. There's also an 885 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 1: Instagram page so Evil Foods where you can stay up 886 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,959 Speaker 1: to date specifically on no Evil And even though there's 887 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: no current fundraising going on for former no Evil Foods workers, 888 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: I would encourage folks to donate money to individuals or 889 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,879 Speaker 1: group stripe funds. John and I have been working with 890 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,799 Speaker 1: this nonprofit union busting watchdog Labor Lab, where he and 891 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 1: I are able to give interviews and a platform to 892 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: working class organizers going through union elections and are actively organizing. 893 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: And what's more aggravating than anything is more often than not, 894 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: many of these people and organizers face retaliation for their 895 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: organizing activity. So I guess the short answer I'm sorry, 896 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,879 Speaker 1: is that you can. You can go to Labor Lab 897 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: dot us slash forty three fifteen and you can always 898 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,120 Speaker 1: stay up to date on what John and I are 899 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: currently fundraising on because there's always a cause out there 900 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,920 Speaker 1: it's worth putting your money towards as far as the 901 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: working class goes. And you know, people are really starting 902 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 1: to wake up to the reality that unless frank and 903 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: file workers come together collectively to advocate better paying conditions, 904 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 1: than those things aren't going to happen. And the best 905 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,240 Speaker 1: way to help this collective fight continue is to really 906 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: just organize your workplace. Hell yah, I'm gonna said it 907 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: better myself. So that is Megan Sullivan. Meghan was a 908 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:00,840 Speaker 1: former or is a form I'm her employee of No 909 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: Evil Foods. She was involved in the unionization effort there, 910 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, you can find the work that 911 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,360 Speaker 1: she and her partner John are doing over at Labor Lab. Megan, 912 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today on Breaking Points. 913 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. 914 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for watching 915 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 1: this segment with Breaking Points, and be sure to subscribe 916 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: to my news outlet, The Real news with links in 917 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: the description. See soon for the next edition of the 918 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 1: Art of Class War. Take care of yourselves, take care 919 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,800 Speaker 1: of each other. Solidarity forever,