1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,600
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,400
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norrie with

3
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,319
Speaker 2: you back with Garrett graf UFO the inside story of

4
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 2: the US government search for alien life here and out

5
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,320
Speaker 2: there we were talking about the case of police Officer

6
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,599
Speaker 2: Lonnie Zamora, and that is the case that got the

7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,479
Speaker 2: late doctor J. L. And Hydek, who headed up Project

8
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 2: Blue Book for the government to believe that UFOs maybe

9
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 2: coming from extraterrestrial places. Garrett, it was an incredible story.

10
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was starting to say before the break,

11
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,879
Speaker 3: you know, the challenge for me is that witnesses like

12
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,160
Speaker 3: Lannie Zamora are uniquely credible, because what you had in

13
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:52,880
Speaker 3: his case was there were other witnesses who appeared very

14
00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,959
Speaker 3: quickly into the New Mexico State trooper who was on

15
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 3: the scene just minutes after his encounter. There was some

16
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 3: physical evidence that something happened, and it seems very clear

17
00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 3: that sort of something happened and upset Jannie Zema, and

18
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,960
Speaker 3: that he is not someone who sort of had previous

19
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 3: encounters or any subsequent encounters. And in fact, you know,

20
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,440
Speaker 3: he's not someone he was widely respected in the community,

21
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,760
Speaker 3: well life in the community, went on to sort of

22
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:35,240
Speaker 3: have a normal life after his encounter, and there's sort

23
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 3: of no reason for him to have invented the story

24
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 3: of an encounter like the one that he had. That's

25
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 3: one of the things that stood out to Jay Allen Heinek.

26
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 3: It stood out to me reading that history and testimonials

27
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 3: and reports years later, and you know, there are those

28
00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 3: category of witnesses that you see over and across the

29
00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,280
Speaker 3: years who have encounters who have no reason to make

30
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 3: up the story and in fact have quite a lot

31
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,640
Speaker 3: potentially to lose for reporting a UFO or UAP encounter.

32
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 3: I would put by the way, those navy pilots today,

33
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 3: the naval aviators today in recent years come forward with

34
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:28,000
Speaker 3: the same type of category. And to me, those types

35
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 3: of encounters, those types of stories, really are what convinced

36
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 3: me that there is something here that is real, that

37
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 3: is worth talking about, and would you know that our

38
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,120
Speaker 3: government should be more interested in figuring out what is

39
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 3: actually going on.

40
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 2: When I first heard the Lone Zamora case, which occurred

41
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 2: in sixty four, and I heard about it years later.

42
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 2: But when I first heard about the case, Garrett, I

43
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 2: thought maybe what he saw was a test land of

44
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,360
Speaker 2: the lunar module, because this was five years before we

45
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,359
Speaker 2: landed on the Moon. Maybe he saw astronauts testing this

46
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 2: thing taking off, flying down and landing and it sounded right.

47
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 2: But dunnan, it hit me that Nah, he saw something else.

48
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, in some wadys at the time,

49
00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 3: you could have said that that was the easy, simplex explanation.

50
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 3: He was close to the White Sands proving grounds in

51
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 3: New Mexico. It was the heart of the Apollo program,

52
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 3: the heart of the space race. But the challenge is

53
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,960
Speaker 3: here we are, fifty sixty years later. We have never

54
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 3: seen a craft emerge from the US government archives. We've

55
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 3: never seen sort of declassified evidence of a craft that

56
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 3: operates anything close to the way that what Janie Zamora

57
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,760
Speaker 3: explained that you saw.

58
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 2: Did your research in this book convince you otherwise that

59
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,560
Speaker 2: the US government is holding back information?

60
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 3: Well, this is a complicated story, and you know, sort

61
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,040
Speaker 3: of a complicated set of facts to try to untangled,

62
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 3: because we know that there is a US government cover

63
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,360
Speaker 3: up about UFOs. You know, there are sort of several

64
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,760
Speaker 3: obvious cloaks of secrecy that we know exist in this world.

65
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,719
Speaker 3: You know, as we discussed previously, some chunk of these

66
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:46,039
Speaker 3: sightings are the US government's own secret plans, projects, experiments,

67
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 3: and operations.

68
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 2: No question.

69
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 3: The CIA goes, you know, went back and tallied up

70
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 3: that they think almost half of all sort of publicly

71
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 3: reported UFOs in the nineteen fifties were the U two

72
00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 3: spot plane as it was being secretly developed during that decade,

73
00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,320
Speaker 3: which was very much a UFO. It was a plane

74
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 3: that flew a multitude that plane did not fly at,

75
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,240
Speaker 3: that did not look like any known plane, flying at

76
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 3: speeds that its planes were not known to fly. You know,

77
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 3: if you were a commercial airline pilot in the nineteen

78
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 3: fifties winging your way across the country and you saw

79
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 3: a YouTube spyplane above you, that was a true UFO,

80
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 3: and we know that sort of some chunk of today

81
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,640
Speaker 3: you're sort of stumbling across similar efforts. We also know

82
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,480
Speaker 3: that there's a cloak of secrecy around, as we discussed

83
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:46,000
Speaker 3: that advanced adversarial technology that's being tested against US by

84
00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,599
Speaker 3: foreign governments China, Russia, Iran, you know, maybe other governments.

85
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 3: And we know that because the Pentagon has said that

86
00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:00,159
Speaker 3: it has detected some of this as adversarial technology. But

87
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,000
Speaker 3: the government just does squirrely about what its sensors pick up,

88
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 3: what it detects, what it doesn't detect, and it doesn't

89
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 3: really necessarily want to let on everything that it knows

90
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 3: about some of these UAP sighting for the purposes of

91
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440
Speaker 3: not sort of sharing with China and Russia what it

92
00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 3: sees and what it doesn't. So you know, you have

93
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,599
Speaker 3: sort of those cloaks of secrecy that we know about

94
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:32,280
Speaker 3: at the heart of the government cover up. Though. I

95
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,840
Speaker 3: think John Brennan, as I mentioned earlier in the show,

96
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 3: when he said in December twenty twenty, that there's stuff

97
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,680
Speaker 3: up there that he's puzzled by, that he doesn't know

98
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 3: what it is, I think that that was an honest

99
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:53,919
Speaker 3: comment that I think he I think that US government

100
00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 3: leadership is honestly confused and unsure of what a lot

101
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 3: of these UFOs and UAPs actually are. And one of

102
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 3: the things that sort of bothers me as a taxpayer

103
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 3: and a citizen writing about this subject is the lack

104
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 3: of curiosity and serious study about what these things actually are.

105
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 2: Unless it's going on clandestinely, it could be it could

106
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 2: be clandestined.

107
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 3: Yes, but I don't think that, you know, when you

108
00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 3: see these high level figures making comments that are sort

109
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 3: of as genuinely puzzled as what John Brannan was saying,

110
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 3: I think that there is at least some chunk of

111
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 3: this phenomenon that they are still quite puzzled by, and

112
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 3: I think they should care more about what the what

113
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 3: the answers are.

114
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 2: Do you think it's still conceivable within government that the

115
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,640
Speaker 2: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

116
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and we have all sorts of evidence across the

117
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 3: eighty years that I really sort of spent the eighty

118
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,440
Speaker 3: years that I really try to study in this book

119
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 3: of the government not knowing what the government was doing.

120
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 3: You know, you have the very famous case from the

121
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 3: dawn of what was sort of then still called the

122
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 3: Flying Saucer Age, when Captain Thomas Mantle, who was a

123
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 3: Kentucky Air National Guard pilot, is dispatched in a P

124
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:49,200
Speaker 3: fifty one to chase a UFO over the skies of Louisville, Kentucky,

125
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:56,559
Speaker 3: and he is He and a couple of flight mates

126
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:02,840
Speaker 3: are dispatched and they race after what they see as

127
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,560
Speaker 3: a giant object. This is January seventh, nineteen forty eight

128
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 3: in the skies over central Kentucky and Captain Thomas Mantle

129
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 3: ends up flying you know, the official government report later

130
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,160
Speaker 3: is that he ends up flying too high in the

131
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,439
Speaker 3: sky without oxygen, trying to chase whatever this object is,

132
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:34,080
Speaker 3: and that he ends up passing out and his plane

133
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 3: crashes and he's killed. And there's this a real moment

134
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 3: of panic in inside the government that, you know, whatever

135
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 3: these UFOs are, whatever these flying saucers are, you know,

136
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 3: did they shoot down Captain Thomas Mantle? You know, are

137
00:09:52,640 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 3: they actively hostile against US aircraft? And it's actually Project

138
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 3: blue Book years later, about four years later, nineteen fifty two,

139
00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 3: finally pieces together what they think happened to Thomas Mantle,

140
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 3: and Edward ruppolt a name I'm sure your listeners know

141
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,320
Speaker 3: who's the head of Project blue Book at the time,

142
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 3: figures out that there was a secret Navy research balloon

143
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,640
Speaker 3: that he was chafing after and that sort of the

144
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 3: Navy never mentioned to the Air Force that it had

145
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 3: this capability, and that it had that he had died,

146
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 3: you know, chasing the US government's own project.

147
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 2: It was an incredible case. What did you think of

148
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 2: the late Harvard the professor John Mack, who spent part

149
00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,600
Speaker 2: of his career chasing down alien abduction cases.

150
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I spent a couple of chapters sort of wrestling

151
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,559
Speaker 3: in in the book with the stories of alien abductions,

152
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 3: and you know, all of those names that I'm sure

153
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 3: your listeners no, John Mac, Bud Hopkins and others, and

154
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 3: you know, to me it was one of the more

155
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 3: fascinating corners of this subject because you know what what

156
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,719
Speaker 3: John Mack and Bud Hopkins and others who look at

157
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:32,840
Speaker 3: this phenomenon come away convinced is that some real trauma

158
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 3: has happened to these people who report these types of encounters,

159
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 3: that they you know, that they share all of the

160
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 3: hallmarks of trauma victims, and that there is not a

161
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:55,320
Speaker 3: shared psychology behind them before they experienced their encounters. You know,

162
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,439
Speaker 3: these were not necessarily people you know, for instance, who

163
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 3: all all had a type of mental illness before they

164
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:10,319
Speaker 3: had uh, you know, reports of their encounters with aliens.

165
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 3: Where I think I settle is, you know that at

166
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 3: a certain level we have to believe them, that you know,

167
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,760
Speaker 3: that they are coming forward and telling the truth, that

168
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 3: they understand it, that they have had some type of

169
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:34,240
Speaker 3: encounter that at least for now, remains unexplainable to us.

170
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily end up concluding that. I think that

171
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 3: you know, that necessarily means that they are being abducted

172
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 3: by aliens, but that they're they are having an encounter

173
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 3: of some time. We have a force that we don't

174
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:52,079
Speaker 3: yet understand.

175
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,679
Speaker 2: What is it about Harvard? Now we have Professor A.

176
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 3: VI Lobe doing his thing, yes, and you know, I

177
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 3: actually was, uh did an event with Abby Lobe last

178
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 3: week at the Chicago Humanities Festival, and you know, one

179
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 3: of the things that sort of kept going through my

180
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 3: mind was, you know, the sort of main figure arguing

181
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 3: against the you know, the sort of early UFO and

182
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 3: early UFO and early flying saucer age was Auvy Lobe's predecessor,

183
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,480
Speaker 3: sort of the debunker in chief, Harvard astronomer, Donald Menzel.

184
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,319
Speaker 3: And I was thinking about sort of how far we

185
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 3: have come in astronomy in fifty years that you go

186
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,440
Speaker 3: from Donald Menzel, who was the you know, the the

187
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,839
Speaker 3: arc type skeptic, to Azvy Lobe, who you know, is

188
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 3: about as close to to a curious believer as you

189
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,960
Speaker 3: can find these days.

190
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 2: When you read the context of the Bible Garrett, and

191
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,080
Speaker 2: it talks about fallen angels and things like that. If

192
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:18,440
Speaker 2: you add in and replace them with extraterrestrials, it still

193
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense.

194
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 3: You know, then, yes, And I think one of the

195
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 3: things that it is very clear is that they're you know,

196
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,800
Speaker 3: you go but sort of through almost any civilization in

197
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 3: human history, and they report weird things in the sky

198
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 3: and they you know, this is not something that was

199
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 3: totally invented in the summer of nineteen forty seven by

200
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 3: Kenneth Arnold in the Pacific Northwest. This is sort of

201
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 3: something that human have wondered about and struggled with for

202
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 3: their entire for our entire existence. And to me, part

203
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 3: of what makes this story so interesting is the way

204
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 3: that it mixes spirituality and science. You know that this

205
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 3: question of are we alone? Is one of the two

206
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 3: or three most profound questions of human existence, you know,

207
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 3: right up there with is there a God? And what

208
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 3: happens to us after death? And I don't know that

209
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 3: we will ever solve you know, those latter two questions,

210
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 3: but I am very optimistic that we will solve that

211
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 3: first question of are we alone? You know, if humanity

212
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 3: pursues it in, and we sort of give ourselves as

213
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 3: a civilization the chance to live long enough to explore it.

214
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

215
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 1: one am Eastern, and go to Coast to coastam dot

216
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: com for more