1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: It is almost overnight, So they just showed up. They 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: just showed up. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: Were y'all immediately suspicious of that? 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: Yeah. 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: On the last episode of Bear Grease, we learned about 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: the black market caviar trade in the United States and 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: how the number one source is the American paddlefish, an 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: ancient beast older than the dinosaurs that can reach up 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: to one hundred and sixty pounds, and females often produce 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: up to twenty percent of their body weight in black eggs, 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: almost worth their weight in gold. We've learned about how 12 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife created a controversial program that 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: allowed anglers to donate their eggs to the state. Then 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: caviar was made and sold on the legal market to 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: raise money for conservation, and it raised over ten million dollars. 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: But this week we're transitioning in the chronology of the 17 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: caviar black market, and the players were completely shocking to me. 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: It was none other than the Russians. This is a 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: wild story about the cultural value of caviat and what 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 2: some people were willing to do to get it. I 21 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 2: really doubt that you're gonna want to miss this one, 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: and I want to let you know that soon you'll 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: be able to watch video. That's right, video of the 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 2: Bear Grease Render Podcast, which is our every other week 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: podcast where we dissect the actual bear Grease podcast. I 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: know it's confusing. All this you'll be able to see 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: on meat Eater's new YouTube channel with just podcasts on it. 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: Brent will be there in his overalls, and I'll probably 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 2: be wearing a coonskin cap, probably even have some music too. 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: It's gonna be a lot of fun. Onto the episode. 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: They knew we were watching them, We knew they were 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 3: watching us, and we'd go down and sit down on 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 3: the bank and just talk to them. You know, they 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: are jolly people, a lot of them. 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: It's just a man. They wanted them paddlefree schick. 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: They wanted that caviar at all costs, and it's kind 37 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: of like we ever doing it. Catch us if you can. 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: My name is Klay Nukem, and this is the Bear 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: Presented by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and 43 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the 44 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: place as we explore. On November twenty seventh, nineteen eighty five, 45 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: America's awareness of the Cold War with the then Soviet 46 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: Union reached an all time high after almost forty years 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 2: of jockeying for global power in this ideological and geopolitical struggle. 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: That November date was the release of a hit box 49 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: office movie, bo Gets out of the Corner Island. 50 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 4: Now, What's moves? 51 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 5: Driver backing Rocky Babo up with a jab, and Balbolla 52 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 5: is not staying on. 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: That is because in a long job of. 54 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: The Russian. 55 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: Tiger, Rocky four starred Sylvester Stallone as Rocky, the virtuous, simple, 56 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: tough as nails American hero pitted against the villainous antagonists. 57 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: Actor Hans Lundgren planned the tall, ridiculously good looking and 58 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: jacked Russian boxer Ivan Drago, who had killed Apollo Creed. 59 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: It was an epic battle portrayed as good versus evil, 60 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: especially if you lived in America. 61 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 5: Driver, continuing to punish Rocky balbois the throng. Rocky Balboa, 62 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 5: who's on the corner like a rag tod on to 63 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 5: firstwe minutes to Rocky Balboa. He's not only fighting what 64 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 5: appears to be an invincible opponent, he's. 65 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: Also fighting a very hostile cloud. It's been a one 66 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 2: sided fight so far. 67 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 6: You need to take more than that. 68 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: If you recall, Rocky had agreed to fight the Russian 69 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: in Moscow. Adrian. Rocky's wife knew that that was a mistake, 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: and most of us did too. The viewer spends most 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 2: of the film anxious about Rocky fighting this guy in Russia, 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: wondering how he's going to pull it off. Now, it 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: might be a stretch to say that this scene played 74 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: out in real life in Oklahoma in the two thousands, 75 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: just the roles were reversed. The fight took place in 76 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: the USA, But the boxers in the Ring of the 77 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: Black the Arctic Caviar World were from the former Soviet Union, 78 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: and we'll learn that often the Oklahoma game wardens and 79 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: federal agents pitted against these Russians in this boxing match 80 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 2: on the River felt like they were box and Ivan 81 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: Drago an almost unbeatable foe. But to go back a 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: little more into real history, not Hollywood history, the Soviet 83 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: Union would collapse in nineteen ninety one, and the ripples 84 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: would roll into Oklahoma's fisheries. 85 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 7: Behind me stands a wall that encircles the free sectors 86 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 7: of this city, part of a vast system of barriers 87 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 7: that divides the entire continent of Europe. General Secretary Gorbachev. 88 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 8: If you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the 89 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 8: Soviet Union in Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come 90 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 8: here to this gate, Mister gorba Open this gate. Mister 91 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 8: Gerbashov teared down this wall. 92 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: The last thing on Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev's mind 93 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: was how tearing down the wall and the collapse of 94 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union would affect the biologically rich American rivers 95 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: of the Midwest, teeming with the ancient polydon spathulah, the 96 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: majestic spoonbill, or the paddlefish. It seems like it might 97 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: have been the first thing they considered, but it wasn't. 98 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: I'm joking, But it's interesting when global politics intersect wildlife management, 99 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: and it did just that. We learned that a trade 100 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: embargo with Iran and the collapse of the Soviet Union 101 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: essentially shut down the sturgeon caviar coming into the United States. 102 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: Sturgeon caviar is the best in the world. K caviar 103 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: had been important cultural staple in much of Europe for 104 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: over one thousand years. Their rich, sturgeon filled rivers had 105 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: made caviar as common on the tables as butter in 106 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: many areas. That's true, and because of that, it made 107 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: its way deeply into the culinary and even religious culture 108 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: of Europe. But the rivers were overfished, sturgeon populations collapsed, 109 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: trade embargoes came on the world, the Soviet Union collapsed, 110 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: and the world was now looking for a new source 111 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: of black caviar. That is the pivot point of this 112 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: whole story, and it didn't take them long to learn 113 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: about our unexploited Midwestern rivers rich with caviar. But these 114 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: Europeans weren't the first ones to illegally trade paddlefish eggs 115 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: in Oklahoma. On the last episode, we heard about a 116 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: bunch of good old boys from Oklahoma doing it. The 117 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: stuff can be worth up to thirty five dollars an ounce, 118 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: which adds up to over five hundred dollars a pound. 119 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: This stuff is expensive. We also learned that paddlefish caviar 120 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: is in the top three to four caviars in the world. 121 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: The demand was there. This black market American story starts 122 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: in the late nineteen eighties when paddlefish caviar first began 123 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: to be exploited and illegally sold to fill in the 124 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: gaps left by this global caviar vacuum. You'll remember game 125 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: Warden Keith Green on the first episode talking about catching 126 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: Billy Wishart on Fort Gibson Lake and the incredible story 127 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: of redemption of Billy later working with the Department as 128 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: their lead legal egg producer. That was just part one 129 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: of our story. Jeff Brown is a retired Oklahoma game warden. 130 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: He's an incredible guy and a legendary lawman in the 131 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: Sooner State. He spent his career protecting Oklahoma wildlife, but 132 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: in Eastern Oklahoma, a paddlefish were the dominant player in 133 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: his career. Here's Jeff introducing us to Operation Russian Snag. 134 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: We really got ramped up and started and started Operation 135 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: Russian Snag. That was that was the you know the 136 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: federal government, federal agencies, they like to put names on everything. 137 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 3: So we come up with with Operation Russian Snag and 138 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: that started in about two thousand and eight. It had 139 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: been going on we'd been working on for a couple 140 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: of years, so let's say two thousand and five through 141 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen. 142 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: So from for about a decade. Yep, it was hot 143 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: and heavy. 144 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 3: It was eighteen it was eighteen twenty hours a day 145 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 3: as far as I know, with the exception of one 146 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 3: fishery up on the Missouri River. And there's no other 147 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: place you can sport fish for paddlefish like you can 148 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: here in Oklahoma. 149 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: So it all had to do with the regulation. And 150 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: this is kind of the paddlefish hub of the US, 151 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: is that right? 152 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, at the time, we had a we went through 153 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: a progression of limits, so there was a period of 154 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: time there where you could catch a fish a day, 155 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: so you could care if you fished every day, you 156 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: catch three hundred and sixty five fish. Well, they would 157 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: show up with ten or fifteen people and that's how 158 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: many fish they took. 159 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 6: That. 160 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: It was a. 161 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: Collaboration between the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the 162 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: ODWC Oklham Department Wildlife or Enforcement Division. It was just 163 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 3: a concerted effort to address this group of fishermen and 164 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: try to figure. 165 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: Out just exactly what was going on. 166 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 3: We knew that there was commercial nexus there, we weren't 167 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: one hundred percent sure what it consisted of. 168 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: It's tricky business in modern times telling the true stories 169 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: of how things actually happen, especially when it involves other nationalities. Oddly, 170 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, telling the story that places Russia 171 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: in a fairly negative light is socially acceptable because of 172 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: the general disapproval in the West of Vladimir Putin and 173 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: Russia's war against Ukraine. I've even heard that Brent Reeves' 174 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: squirrel hunted with Putin. That's not true, but you should 175 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: see my Instagram meme. It's hilarious. But seriously, it's not 176 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: lost on me that if this story was about another nationality, 177 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: perhaps it would be viewed as inappropriate to directly talk 178 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 2: about the offenders and make assumptions about their culture. I'd 179 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: just like to say from the start that I'm certain 180 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: I don't fully understand the dynamics of the situation, these 181 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: people's culture and their motivations, And my starting place is 182 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: an assumption that the majority of Russians residing in the 183 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: United States today are hardworking, honest people. But in this story, 184 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: a select group of them, we're breaking the law, and 185 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: that's an interesting story, so we're going to talk about it. 186 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: Here's Jeff. 187 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: I started September one, nineteen eighty five, went to work 188 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: as a game warden for the Wildlife Department. They shipped 189 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 3: me to western Oklahoma and I stayed out there five years. 190 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: I'm from this part of the state, from down around Tulsa, 191 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 3: So the first opportunity I got, I moved back close 192 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 3: to home. I've been here in this area since September 193 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: of ninety and immediately was immersed into the paddlefish wars. 194 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: As we officially called them. 195 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 3: We spent and I say we, I mean game wardens 196 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: in this district overall in the springtime. That's all we 197 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: did was paddlefish work. That's all we did. You know, 198 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 3: we'd make literally thousands of cases a year just on paddlefish. 199 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: You know, people not tagging their fish. You have to 200 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: tag your fish, you have to fill out a recorded game, 201 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: you have to check in your fish, people catching over limits, 202 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 3: the whole gamut. But most of our work was done 203 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 3: on paddlefish enforcement in this district. At full Staff District one, 204 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: which includes northeast Oklahoma. Here ten counties in the northeast, 205 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: which ninety percent of the paddlefish resources and where the 206 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: sport fishing takes place. At full staff, they're including the 207 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: district captain. There was seventeen of us and man, it 208 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: was all hands on deck for three months. That's all 209 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: we did. There was one one year there where we 210 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: I want to say, there was like twenty some thousand 211 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 3: paddlefish permits were issued and the very next year that 212 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 3: doubled in size in the number of battlefish. 213 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: In the nineteen nineties and. 214 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: Eight it is when we really saw the paddlefish caviard 215 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: deal really coming into play. 216 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: So in the nineteen nineties, most of your violations with 217 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: paddlefish were just just recreational fishermen, just like catching too 218 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: many fish. Yeah, then you started to see actual poachers 219 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: taking their paddlefish into Arkansas. 220 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 3: In the nineties, we saw that going on too, but 221 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 3: it was local people doing it. So we started really 222 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 3: paying attention to people poaching paddlefish for their caviar and 223 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 3: caught several groups resident people who were doing just that. 224 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: We had some laws introduced and passed that were made 225 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: it illegal to possess over so many pounds of caviar. 226 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: And when that happened, we didn't have to wait for 227 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: them to leave the state. As soon as they loaded 228 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: a vehicle up and looked like they were running, as 229 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 3: soon as they got on the interstate like they were 230 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: headed out. We would stop them anywhere from an eighteen wheeler. 231 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: We've stopped eighteen wheelers and gone through them, and they'd 232 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: have the caviar hidden underneath the vegetables and a roofer 233 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: truck or whatever. We just unload them on the side 234 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: of the highway and take their caviar and ride them 235 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 3: a bunch of tickets and let them go. There's a 236 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: whole progression there when we kind of waded through the locals. 237 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: We called them above is affectionately, just for lack of 238 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: anything else, you know, the local guys we kind of 239 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: got all. So that waded through, caught all of those 240 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: that we knew the players, and sent some of them 241 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 3: to prison. Some of them were some bad actors, but we. 242 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: Went some to prison. So some of these guys were violating. 243 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, or or put so many restrictions on 244 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 3: them that they couldn't fish anymore, maybe suspend their fishing license, 245 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: you know, made it so that if they showed back 246 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: up on the riverbank, they could get in trouble. 247 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: In the nineteen nineties, most of the paddlefish violators, including 248 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: egg poachers, were locals, and the department felt like they 249 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: had the situation under control. But in the early two 250 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: thousands they took notice of an interesting change in demographics. 251 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: In one year, it went from like twenty some thousand 252 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 3: paddlefish permits issued to like fifty thousand. It doubled in 253 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 3: one year. Wow, we went through the through all the 254 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: paddlefish permit holders. It's one thing good about it. We 255 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: go through there and compared our numbers to the number 256 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 3: of Eastern Europeans that had a paddlefish permit, and it 257 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: was like at one time its high as like five 258 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: hundred Eastern Europeans had paddlefish permits from all from various 259 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 3: states all over all over the United States are coming here. 260 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: So you know, that's something we realized we was up against. 261 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: How did you first did you come aware? I mean, 262 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: is it just like a game ward and walking down 263 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: the bank checking fishing license talking to people And for 264 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: decades since the dawn of time, it was people from 265 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: Oklahoma that your meeting, and all of a sudden you 266 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: shake hands with the guy from Russia. 267 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they and they've got Russian sounding names. I mean, 268 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: for lack of a better way of. 269 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: Having, did that like phase in or was it just 270 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: like all of a sudden, It's just like the officer, 271 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: did you realize that half the people we talked to 272 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: they were Russian? 273 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: It was almost overnight. 274 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: So they just showed up, They just showed up. Were 275 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: y'all immediately suspicious of that? 276 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's a cultural thing to them, you know, 277 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: it's a big deal. And they they would and we 278 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: talked to several of them, and they tell us all 279 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: the all the healing properties and and how all the 280 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: great things that that, how good they were for your body, 281 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: you know, to eat these eat these fish eggs, and 282 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 3: they loved it. 283 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: It's just it's clear that it meant more to them 284 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: in their culture than it did in ours. 285 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: Oh. 286 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So they were willing to sacrifice anything they found, 287 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: like a bird nest on the ground when they came up. 288 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 3: And up until then, all the all the local people 289 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 3: we dealt with was taking the pattlefish and and running 290 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: it through uh commercial fishermen in other states. They weren't 291 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 3: using it themselves. The Eastern Europeans. Not only were they 292 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 3: catching it for themselves, but they were catching it for 293 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: all their extended family. There were there were big Russian 294 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: communities and cities. And the way it was put to 295 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 3: us by other federal agencies that we contacted to help 296 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: us with this was that you know, they were as 297 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: a community, they were real tight. All the Eastern European 298 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: community in Tulsa had real tight connections to all the 299 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: other Eastern European communities and vice versa. And when the 300 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: when the Soviet Union disintegrated as as a block, a 301 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: lot of these people were displaced. They immigrated to the 302 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 3: United States to get away from persecution or whatever whatever 303 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: they were doing, and the old Soviet Union wasn't going 304 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: to work for them anymore. And they immigrated to the 305 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 3: United States and with that they brought their culture, and 306 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 3: part of that culture was with caviat and they found 307 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 3: a really ready source for it, and man, they started 308 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 3: exploiting it just overnight. 309 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: I wonder how much awareness they would have had, because 310 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: you know, people coming out of the Soviet Union going 311 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: to different big cities in the US, and these people 312 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: end up in Tulsa and they and they start working 313 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: and doing what they do and maybe have business or whatever. 314 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: And then I wonder how aware they were if they 315 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: were like, man, spoon bill populations are good in the Midwest, 316 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: especially over there in Oklahoma, let's move there, I mean, 317 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: or if it was like they just ended up in 318 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 2: Tulsa by random chance, let's say, and then they're like, 319 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: holy cow, the hill abilities aren't using the eggs? 320 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, no, And that was a big part 321 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: of It's kind of like all of a sudden, somebody 322 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: threw a light switch on and they realized what they 323 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: had or what they were close to. 324 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 6: Yeah. 325 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 3: Well, then the Eastern European community in Tulsa would bring 326 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: in members from other Eastern European communities and other states, 327 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 3: and we started seeing lots of Colorado people, lots of 328 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 3: people from Minnesota. 329 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: We made some good cases on those from the Northwest. 330 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: These people had relocated in various big cities, and when 331 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 3: they realized that Oklahoma had caviar and the game was on, 332 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 3: they were on it. 333 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: They were on it. 334 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: A lot of it was for their own personal consumption, 335 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 3: but then they started peddling it amongst themselves. 336 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: A lot. 337 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: We noticed that when they would come here and they 338 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: would they would line the bank and be fishing and 339 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: say a local person down the creek there, down the 340 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: bank there caught a paddlefish, and they'd go over there 341 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: and try to buy it from him. We knew that 342 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: we had a problem, and we was trying to get 343 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: ahead of it, and and it took a long time. 344 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: And what we found out is that we were fighting 345 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 3: a losing battle and the only way we were going 346 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: to get this stop probably was to legislate it to 347 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: the point of where it would make it too hard 348 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: for him to do it. 349 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: Like Rocky Balboa, by the start of the second round 350 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: with Drago, he knew he was in trouble. So did 351 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 2: the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife. Here's some more details on 352 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: how the paddlefish wore proceeded. 353 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 3: Starting out, there were we identified three different groups or 354 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 3: family groups that we felt like we're really involved in it, 355 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: and they were in the Tulsa area, and even to 356 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: the extent that people would not come, people that came 357 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 3: from out of state would go through them. They would 358 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: either either stay with them while they were here or 359 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: or took direction from them, and we would we would 360 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 3: just sit and watch them fish. And one particular group, 361 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 3: there were several family members they would show up on 362 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 3: the river bank and it was all business. They had 363 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 3: some of the Somebody was in charge of fishing. Somebody 364 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 3: was in charge of checking the fish when they got 365 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 3: it to the bank to see whether it had eggs 366 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: in it or not. Another one was in charge of 367 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: ripping the eggs out of the fish. Another one was 368 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 3: in charge of getting the eggs to the truck. I 369 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: mean it was an assembly line. Once those eggs made 370 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: it to a vehicle, man, boom, they're gone. And they 371 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: had counter surveillance. They would have vehicles that would run interference. 372 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 3: They knew that we were watching them, and they would 373 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: have vehicles that would cut us off when we were 374 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: trying to follow them. They went out of their way 375 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 3: not to get caught. When all this started, we went 376 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: to the FBI to see if we could get some help, 377 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 3: and they weren't interested in helping us because there wasn't 378 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: enough money involved. 379 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: It wasn't a big. 380 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: Enough fish for them to fry, so to speak. But 381 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: they did tell us say, look, we're not surprised at 382 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 3: all because and it had to do with the system 383 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: they were brought up in, you know, the old Soviet block. 384 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 3: That's how they if they wanted to be affluent and 385 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: have money in the old Soviet block, they had to 386 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 3: learn how to scheme the system. And they brought that 387 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: with them to the United States. 388 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: Wow. 389 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 3: And you know, and we go back to talk about 390 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: how organized they were. There was one particular ular guy 391 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: that we kind of recognized as the king pin out 392 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 3: of the whole thing. And there may be some Eastern 393 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: Europeans that would come down here from Minnesota or whatever, 394 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: and so and so would be on the bank down there. 395 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: Every Eastern European who was here fishing would go and 396 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, and pay homage to him. 397 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: They would go up to him and someone would bow 398 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 3: to him. Really yeah, And and come to find out 399 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: that a lot of these people were real big in 400 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 3: the Russian Orthodox Church. And I think this guy was 401 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: a church leader. 402 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: And and so y'all noted like from your surveillance, like 403 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 2: that guy, everybody that comes here is going to that guy, 404 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: going to go watch how they treated him. 405 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: He was. 406 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 3: He was the daddy rabbit for somehow, some way, you know, 407 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: he either found. 408 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 2: Was he not a focal point of the investigations? 409 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, did you ever catch him? No, Some of 410 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: this people, some of the people. Now, no, he probably 411 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 3: got some citations for doing He probably got some citations 412 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 3: for violations. But as far as he facilitated everything, as 413 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: far as we could tell, the eggs that went to 414 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 3: Seattle were his group. 415 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, his group. 416 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: There was a big paddlefish caviar bust in Seattle that 417 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: had a lot of Oklahoma eggs in it. Okay, let's 418 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: play a little game here. So Eastern Europeans come to 419 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: rural Oklahoma. Game wardens are watching them that they stand 420 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: out because they're from a different culture. 421 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: Oh, you could, you could, you could see them. We 422 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: would look. Our vantage point was across the river. The 423 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: river right there was real wide, so they're a half 424 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 3: mile away. We'd have to watch them with binoclars. You 425 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 3: could pick everyone of them simply by the way they 426 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 3: were dressed. 427 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: Oh really, yeah, really yeah, how would they dress? 428 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 3: A lot of them wore workout clothes, jogging apparel, cut suits, 429 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: or they'd be mismatched, badly mismatched. 430 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: Really yeah, you could just you could just peek. 431 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: Pick them out. 432 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 3: Very rare, very rarely, very rarely could we not wow, 433 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 3: But but you could look across there and say, yep. 434 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: Rush, and you just you just knew it is it? Okay, 435 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: So let's let's this plays right into my game. So 436 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: let's say the roles were reversed and that people from 437 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 2: rural Oklahoma went to Russia and we're doing something some 438 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: illegal fishing in Russia. Okay. So when you're watching these 439 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: guys through binos, they're going to this kingpin and like 440 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: kissing his ring and bowing to him, and you know, 441 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: they're doing whatever, and their culture makes sense for them 442 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: to do to the big dog. What would what would 443 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: how would the Russians pick out the rural Oklahoma's over there. 444 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 3: There again, probably by the way they were dressed. Yeah, yeah, 445 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 3: camo and yeah, real real tree camo. It's it's funny 446 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: and this that that made me think of something. So 447 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: when all this was first really getting ramped up and 448 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: went to the Feds, and when we got to have 449 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 3: some help, well they brought in Feds from all over 450 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 3: the country, and there was about ten or so of 451 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: them showed up one day that the federal agents, and 452 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: they're going to go down and go fishing with them. 453 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: I kind of see what's going on. They picked everyone 454 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: on them mount. 455 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: The Russians picked out the agents. 456 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: Every one of them really to the point that they 457 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 3: finally said, we're doing no good here, We're leaving. 458 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: Wow. 459 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, even went up to them and said, we know 460 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 3: you're the police. 461 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 2: Picked them out, picked them out. 462 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: Wow, that's right. We corned. The phrase sticks out like 463 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: a fed at a. 464 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 2: Snagging hole, sticks out like a fed at a snagging hole. 465 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 2: I like that. That's funny. That's what we'd call getting 466 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: the tea, as the young kids say these days. And 467 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to generalize too much, but it seemed 468 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 2: clear from all the information they were getting, even from 469 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: the federal government, that this group of people knew how 470 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: to get around systems. 471 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 3: The Eastern Europeans. They knew what they knew. We were 472 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 3: watching them, and they were watching us. One incident in particular, 473 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: we were going to try to set a pole camera 474 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 3: up on one of the places in Tulsa, and a 475 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: lady come outside and she knew exactly what was going on. 476 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: She knew what we were doing. 477 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: It was a utility company out there putting this pole 478 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: camera which looked like I mean, you can't tell it's 479 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: a camera to look at it. It was a camera 480 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 3: made it look like a actually made it look like 481 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 3: an electric transformer or something. 482 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: Anyway, she picked up on it immediately. 483 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 2: What'd she say? 484 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 3: She come outside and looked up here and said, what 485 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 3: are y'all doing? And you know that business dried up? 486 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: I think we used it, just maybe some background. We 487 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 3: were told by the FBI that some of these people, 488 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 3: if they've got a hand in it, they have made 489 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 3: their living getting around the rules, and they come by 490 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 3: it honestly because that's what they had to do. In 491 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 3: the old Soviet Union. We had spreadsheets of phone numbers 492 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 3: and there would be a phone. There'd be a phone 493 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 3: that's registered to this your eastern year pen, but this 494 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 3: guy uses it and seemingly they're not connected, but yet 495 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: he's using a phone that this guy pays for. 496 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of that. 497 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 3: And I had a whole bunch of names at one 498 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 3: time that was using an analyst in Washington, d C. 499 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 3: She worked for one of the federal agencies. And I 500 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: called her on the phone. I don't remember her name now, 501 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 3: and I said, can you check these peoples out for me? 502 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 503 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: So she called me back. She goes, what are y'all doing? 504 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: And I told her. She goes, this is the bad 505 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 3: of the bad. So I don't know what y'all are 506 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 3: getting into. So, but these people are on lots of 507 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 3: different agencies, you know, radars. She knew, she didn't know them, 508 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 3: but she knew the names. 509 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: And these were people down here Capilar fishing. Yeah, that's interesting. 510 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: Here's Jeff describing the overall strategy of Operation Russian Snag. 511 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: The US Fish and Wildlife Service had been brought in 512 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: as a partner on this, and they took the lead. 513 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: And what they wanted to do was let these eggs 514 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 3: go and hoping that they could find where they were 515 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: going on the other end, to kind of cut the 516 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 3: head off the snake, so to speak, which was a 517 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: good idea in theory, but it was so hard to 518 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 3: be able to get that done. When I say we, 519 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: I mean that I was in charge of Loose Lee 520 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 3: along with Matt Bryant, the federal agent here in the 521 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: state at the time. Together we kind of ran this 522 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 3: task force and followed eggs all the way to the 523 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 3: Seattle area Portland, followed eggs to Denver area, trying to 524 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: figure out where they were ending up. Where they were 525 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: going had some success. Followed one group of eggs all 526 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: the way to New York City, got up there lost them, 527 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 3: but we knew that's where they ended up. Well, just 528 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: a few days later, that same group of eggs we knew, 529 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 3: We knew right down to the pound, how many eggs 530 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: they should have, knew how many fish they caught, how 531 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 3: many eggs, how many pounds of eggs those fish should 532 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 3: have produced. The Canadian government confiscated those eggs going over 533 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: into Canada. We weren't able to make the case on it. 534 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: The Canadian government wasn't interested in it. They took the 535 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 3: guy's eggs, but they didn't fall charges on him, and 536 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: the US attorney was reluctant to fall charges on them 537 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: under whatever circumstances. 538 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: Was there any pinnacle charges brought on any one particular 539 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: person that would be like the hallmark of Russian snag, 540 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: just like we got these guys. 541 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were. 542 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: Like I said, when we finally started side decided that 543 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 3: we were not going to start keep letting these eggs 544 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 3: go out of state. We started stopping when we got 545 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 3: some substantial fines off of some of them. We stopped 546 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: a vehicle over on I thirty five, headed up into 547 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: Kansas and eventually over the Denver area. They had three 548 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 3: hundred and some pounds of processed eggs of caviaar if 549 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: they ended up. 550 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: Paying over one hundred thousand dollars rough the caviar. 551 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 3: And they ended up they ended up paying almost twenty 552 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: thousand dollars in fines and restitution. 553 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: What happened to the caviar? You confiscate that three hundred 554 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: punds of what happened to it? 555 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: As far as I know, it was kept as evidence 556 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: for a long time and then it was disposed of. Really, yeah, 557 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 3: we couldn't. 558 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 2: Not even a single dip of the cracker into it. 559 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: H No, you know, and I wouldn't. 560 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: What would become instrumental in actually being able to catch 561 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: and convict paddlefish egg violators would come down to a 562 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 2: simple change in the law, which was spearheaded by Jeff. 563 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: It seems like stuff like this would be easier to do, 564 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: but sometimes the systems just aren't that nimble. However, the 565 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: problem was almost completely solved with one simple change. 566 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 3: At that time, if you wanted to catch a paddlefish, 567 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: you had to go to the Grand River System to 568 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: do it. At the same time, all this was going 569 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 3: on in the Wildlife Department and the US Fish Wildlife 570 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 3: Service was reintroducing paddlefish into a lot of different lakes. 571 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: Ulagall Lake, which is right here close, was one of them. 572 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: But all the lakes in northeast Oklahoma now have viable 573 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 3: population and paddlefish in them. So now that pressure is 574 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 3: being spread out over the whole northeastern part of the 575 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: state as opposed to just one river system. Well what 576 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: that did is maybe take some of the pressure off 577 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 3: that Grand River system, but it made Game Warning's life 578 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 3: that much harder because now instead of us being able 579 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 3: to concentrate on a particular river system, now we had 580 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 3: it going on all over at Call Lake, at Uligul Lake, 581 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: at Keystone Lake, you follow lake just everywhere Navigation Channel. 582 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 3: I went to the Wildlife Department in about two thousand 583 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 3: and thirteen or fourteen, said we got to have some help, 584 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: so we can't do this anymore, and I met a 585 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 3: lot of resistance. My proposal was we shut snagging down 586 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 3: at nighttime, after dark, we don't want any snagging. Well, 587 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: we can't do that because you know, we're taking away 588 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 3: opportunity from Joe fishermen. So there's no family out there 589 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 3: at midnight paddle fishing, so it's not happening. If they're 590 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 3: doing it. You know they old adage if it's if 591 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: it's happening after midnight, there's no good in it. There's 592 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: a lot of truth to that, man. They just really 593 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 3: really fought against it, and finally we come up with 594 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 3: a compromise. We're in northeast Oklahoma. We made it illegal 595 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 3: to fish snag for paddlefish from ten o'clock at night 596 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 3: to I think at six o'clock in the morning, with 597 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 3: the exception of one place. That one thing did more 598 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 3: than anything to shut this down or at least at 599 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 3: least keep it where we could keep a keep a 600 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: lid on it. Because if they couldn't do it under 601 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 3: the cover of darkness, they were. 602 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: Going to do it. 603 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 3: That validated our already suspicion or what we knew to 604 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: be is that they weren't sport fishing. They were doing 605 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 3: it for the eggs and the egg only. That's how 606 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: important it was to us. It's a unique fish, it 607 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 3: can and is exploited, and that's one way that I 608 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 3: really pushed this rule, this regulation change to our fisheries people. 609 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 3: As look said, historically, the game ardens in this part 610 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: of the state. We've dedicated our life to protecting these fish. 611 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 3: If you want that level of protection to continue, we've 612 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 3: got to make some real changes because we cannot as 613 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: a group keep up this pace. That's all we did 614 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 3: for twenty hours a day for sixty ninety days out 615 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 3: of every spring, and I went ten fifteen years and 616 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 3: never got into the Turkey woods because it happens at 617 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 3: the same time in Oklahoma, we've got big sam bass 618 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 3: fisheries and sambas fishermen went several years without ever seeing 619 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 3: a game arden because we were concentrating on powdlefish because 620 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 3: they are so susceptible to exploitation. Anytime, and this is 621 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 3: my belief wholeheartedly. Anytime wildlife and money are involved, wildlife 622 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 3: loses every time. I mean, you go back to the 623 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 3: turn of the century, and that's what got us in 624 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 3: the position we were in. It was the commercial harvest 625 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 3: of wildlife and that still goes on today, not on 626 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 3: that scale, but absolutely if left unchecked, you know, the 627 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 3: wildlife comes out on the short end of stick every time. 628 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 3: So finally we got some rules changed, and the biggest 629 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 3: thing is that they now could not do it under 630 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 3: the cover of darkness. Now what that did for is 631 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: is for the game warden is before we'd have to 632 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 3: sit on them all night long and wait for them 633 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 3: to make a violation. Well, if they couldn't be there 634 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 3: to begin with, that made our job easier because and 635 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: it happened some. 636 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: We still worked all night. 637 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 3: But if we saw somebody snagging and we didn't have 638 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 3: to wait for them to violate, they were already, they 639 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: were already in violation, we just go get them. Yeah, 640 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 3: and it didn't take very much you that, I'm gonna 641 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 3: say two years in. 642 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: We've got good. We had good compliance. 643 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: A lot of a lot of those Eastern Europeans there again, 644 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 3: they knew we were watching them. We knew they were 645 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 3: watching us. And we go down and sit down on 646 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 3: the bank and just talk to them and they you know, 647 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 3: they are jolly people, a lot of them. 648 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a man. They wanted them Battlefie sings. 649 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 3: They wanted that Cavia at all costs, and it's kind 650 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 3: of like, yeah, we're doing it. Catch us if you can. 651 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 3: And you know, we finally got to where we could 652 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 3: in it and it hurt them some. 653 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: I want to ask Jeff a question I'm compelled to 654 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: ask almost every law enforcement officer. I encounter. Did you 655 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: ever feel in danger or anything and doing your undercover 656 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: work with any of this. 657 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 3: Not with the Russians, so to speak, they always felt 658 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: like they had their apprehend and they did actually. But 659 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 3: with the Bubba's there was some some of that bunch 660 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 3: with that were dangerous and there was there was one 661 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 3: particular guy that I had a big party in arresting. 662 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 3: We put him in prison. He had been arrested a 663 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: few times before for the same thing over the years. Uh. 664 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 3: We followed him the Sylum Springs. As soon as he 665 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 3: crossed the line at Sylum Springs, we arrested him. He 666 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 3: was a convicted felon, and we knew everybody knew that 667 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 3: was one person that if we ever if he ever 668 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 3: caught you right by yourself, it. 669 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: Was a gunfight. But we what'd you get him for? Paddlefish? Oh? 670 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 2: He was dealing in eggs? 671 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he I was. I was sitting I was sitting 672 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 1: on his house. One night. I sat on his house. 673 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 3: He lived in an area and and I got dumped 674 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: out along with other people several several nights over two 675 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 3: or three years, until finally one morning I was sitting 676 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 3: on his house and here comes a pickup and they 677 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 3: start loading ice chests in the back of it, and 678 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 3: I radioed Keith and I said, we're on and we 679 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 3: got everybody. We got everybody rounded up and followed him 680 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 3: the Ring Spring or Silent Springs. As soon as he 681 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 3: crossed the line in Thesylum Springs, we stopped him. He 682 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 3: was a convicted felon and what we ended up sending 683 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 3: him to prison for is that he had one shotgun 684 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 3: shell in his vehicle, which violated his probation. 685 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 686 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 3: And even though all that stuff and he wouldn't get 687 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 3: him on anything, he went to prison because of that 688 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 3: one shotgun shell. Really, well, we didn't care and we 689 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 3: didn't care how we caught him, as long as we 690 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 3: caught him. 691 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: What's what's wrong with the system when you can't really 692 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 2: prosecute real criminals? I mean, like as a as a 693 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 2: game board, and who has committed your life? 694 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 3: And you know, and and I can make sense of 695 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 3: it only this way. Why life isn't that big of 696 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 3: a deal to most prosecutors and judges. 697 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: And I understand it. 698 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 3: You know, you've got people that are murdering, raping, you know, robbing, stealing. 699 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're looking at the high. 700 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: If you're looking at the high, if you're. 701 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 3: Looking at the hierarchy, powder fish smuggling is what down here. 702 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: I get cut. I get that. 703 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 3: Over the years, we've had some good prosecution locally when 704 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 3: we would catch some of these these guys with eggs 705 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 3: and we would stop them, you know, we quit letting 706 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 3: them go out of state, and we would stop them 707 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 3: and and take their eggs and stuff. We got some 708 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 3: good prosecution on them. But on a big scale, if 709 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 3: that is my opinion, if that attorney needed to was 710 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 3: going to have to invest a lot of time in 711 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 3: figuring it out, it. 712 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: Wasn't worthing to really. 713 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, if we brought if we brought him up, 714 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 3: if we brought him a case that was locked solid, 715 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 3: we caught him, here's the eggs, we wrote him these tickets, 716 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: max him out. 717 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: He's all about it. 718 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 3: But if it was something like a conspiracy deal or 719 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 3: some big long investigation that he was going to have 720 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 3: to weed through a stack of papers. 721 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: That thick, it wasn't gonna happen. Wow Wow, And. 722 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 3: It's still that way today, And it wasn't only pati 723 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 3: fishs just that way. 724 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 2: Think that's an injustice or do you feel like that's 725 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 2: just part of the game. 726 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: That's just part of it. 727 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 2: So you don't get your feelings hurt by that. 728 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: No you can't, Yeah you can't. 729 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 2: But people that like us, that like you, like like me, 730 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 2: like the people that value wildlife so much and have 731 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 2: dedicated a big section of their life. Like when I 732 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 2: hear about a paddlefish criminal, I mean, that's like high 733 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: level offense. 734 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 3: You know, it is. 735 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: It is a game. It's interesting to hear you say that. 736 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 2: I've never had anybody sell me that as good as 737 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 2: you just did. Yeah, most people's radar, this is not 738 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 2: that big of a violation to society. And yeah, and 739 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 2: that's hard, that's hard for me to hear because you know, 740 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 2: we love all this stuff so much. It's a big 741 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: part of our lifestyle. 742 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 3: There are some prosecutors and some judges that are wildlife 743 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 3: or outdoor people. 744 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: They're hunter and fishermen. 745 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 3: They get it, and consequently we would get better cooperation 746 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 3: from them. Honestly, there's not that many of them that 747 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 3: are like that, And especially on the federal side, they've 748 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 3: got they've got so many on the federal side. They're 749 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 3: dealing with the bad or the bad and uh and 750 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 3: a paddlefish. It's like the guy that we caught in 751 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 3: Sylum Springs with the eggs and he had that one 752 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 3: shotgun shill that that used attorney was all over that 753 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 3: because that's a that's a big deal. He by a lady, 754 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 3: just federal probation. So we're sending him back to the pen. 755 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 3: Eggs that is, that's immaterial, you know. And we didn't 756 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 3: care why he went back to the pen. We just 757 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 3: don't even went back to the pin. Got him out 758 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 3: of our hair for a little bit. Yeah, and he 759 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 3: came out of the pen. So he come out of 760 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 3: the pen too old to paddlefish anymore, and that was 761 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 3: a blessing to us. But he was he was a 762 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 3: dangerous individual. 763 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 2: It's hard for me to wrap my mind around serious 764 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 2: wildlife criminals not being treated by the judicial system as 765 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: legit criminals. But really, I don't know if that's good 766 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 2: or bad. Should someone be able to have, let's say, 767 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 2: a life sentence for a wildlife violation, and with all 768 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,439 Speaker 2: the problems in the world, and as thinly stretched as 769 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 2: all our law enforcement and judicial systems are, I guess 770 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 2: it makes sense. I just don't really like it, because 771 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 2: wildlife is so important to me and my culture, our culture. 772 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 2: Probably if you're listening to this, I'd like to wrap 773 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 2: up this series by one last conversation about caviar. I'm 774 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 2: really intrigued by and at the time of this recording, 775 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 2: I've never eaten caviar. It's scarcity, it's financial cost, its 776 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 2: perception is a status symbol of wealth and luxury. Is 777 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: endlessly fascinating to me, kind of like mules in my culture. 778 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 2: Mules are kind of like the caviar of the hillfolk. 779 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: But I have one more question. Let me ask you 780 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 2: about consumption of caviar kind of in the United States. 781 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: That would be when I think about wildlife resources and 782 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 2: eating wild game and eating fish we catch, there is 783 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 2: not caviar in my cultural rolodex of stuff that we 784 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: would eat like It wouldn't even if I caught a 785 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: big fish that had a bunch of fish eggs in it, 786 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 2: that would be the last thing that I would want 787 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: to eat. Are there people in Oklahoma that is that 788 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 2: somewhere in the cultural knowledge of people to eat caviar. 789 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 2: So basically the Eastern European and kind of the wealthy 790 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 2: elite that ate caviar have influenced absolutely people where they 791 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: get it. And so you think there's a lot of 792 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 2: caviar fans in Oklahoma. 793 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 3: No, No, it's the more influential crowd. Kind of a 794 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 3: status deal, I guess, and that would be clear. But 795 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 3: people who are like that have the money to go 796 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 3: buy it anyway. You can buy paddlefish caviar on the 797 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 3: legal open mark all day long. Most of it comes 798 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 3: from legal sources. Some of it is illegal sources that's 799 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,320 Speaker 3: been laundered through legal. 800 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 2: Where could you go buy paddlefish caviar? 801 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: Could? 802 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 2: In New York City? Could you buy paddlefish caviar? 803 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: Yes, there are caviar shops. 804 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 3: One of them is I've been to New York City 805 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 3: one time in my life and it just so happened 806 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 3: accidentally walking down the street and I look and there 807 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 3: is a caviar shop, and I recognize the name on 808 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 3: it because it was one of the names that had 809 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 3: come up in our investigation and stuff. Even a lot 810 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 3: of this unlawful caviar ended up in legal caviar shops, 811 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 3: and the Fish and Wildlife Service has been working on 812 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,879 Speaker 3: a way to do DNA testing on caviar to tell 813 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 3: where it comes from, to tell what watershed did it 814 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 3: come from? 815 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 2: You'll remember retired Oklahoma game board and Keith Green from 816 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 2: the last episode. He's a caviar expert. I had one 817 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 2: last question for him. How do you eat it? 818 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: What do you what? 819 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 2: Do you eat it on a cracker? 820 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you really taste you have. 821 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 2: To put your pinky up in the air when you 822 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 2: hold the cracker. 823 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 5: If you're really tasting testing it, and you want to 824 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 5: know what it's really tasting like. 825 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 4: But take this a little bit out and put this 826 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 4: a little bit right. 827 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 2: Here and put it on your thumb. 828 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe fifteen eggs. 829 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 2: Do you think that caviar it has become a cultural 830 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 2: phenomena here with the local people? 831 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 4: No? Why we're just too redd in it? You know, 832 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 4: I've bet. 833 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,919 Speaker 2: If it's so good? Does it not? Would I? I've 834 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 2: never had it? Would I not? Like why it seems 835 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 2: like it's people make such a fuss about it. It 836 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 2: would be good anywhere, you know what I mean? 837 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, but here you got people cleaning fish every day 838 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 5: and they're throwing away all the eggs, and they've seen 839 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 5: those eggs thrown away, And how can you eat fish eggs? 840 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 4: How can are you? Are you kidding me? 841 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 2: I'm really interested in this caveat. We're going to try 842 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,879 Speaker 2: to get some Oklahoma caveat. Where can we get it? Well, 843 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 2: it's ending right now, can we buy it something? It 844 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 2: doesn't exist anymore. There is no Oklahoma caviar anymore. Really, 845 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 2: so right, we can't buy it anywhere now. 846 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 4: You could have last year at this time. 847 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 2: How do I get it? 848 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 4: Then you don't? 849 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 5: You got to catch you catch a fish and make 850 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:29,280 Speaker 5: it yourself. 851 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,959 Speaker 4: Really yeah. 852 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 2: What Keith means by it ended last year is that 853 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,320 Speaker 2: they've shut down the Paddlefish Research Center, so the state 854 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 2: no longer deals commercially in paddlefish eggs. Their creation of 855 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 2: the program was never about money, and after almost fifteen 856 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 2: years of research, they had all the data they needed. 857 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 2: So the program that Keith pioneered has come to an end. 858 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 2: It only seems appropriate to me to end this series 859 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 2: with one of the greatest American speeches of reconciliation ever made. 860 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,240 Speaker 6: I came here tonight. I didn't know what to expect. 861 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 6: I wish it can get your mate a dream. I 862 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 6: see a lot of people hating me, and I didn't 863 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 6: know what to feel about that. So I guess I 864 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 6: didn't like you much. 865 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: Not either. 866 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 6: During this fight, I've seen a lot of changing. 867 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: The change. 868 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 6: The way you felt about me and the way I 869 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 6: felt about you. 870 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: Is meaningless. 871 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 6: In here there were two guys showing each other. But 872 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 6: I guess that's better and twenty. 873 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,359 Speaker 1: Million, So you have to move? What's dollars? What else? 874 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 6: Trying to say it? If I can change, you have 875 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 6: to move, and you can change. 876 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:15,919 Speaker 1: We move. 877 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 6: Everybody to change. 878 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for listening to bear Grease. 879 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 2: Please leave us a review on iTunes and share a 880 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 2: podcast with your friends and family and tell them about 881 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 2: the wild stories you're hearing on Bear Grease and Brent's 882 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 2: This Country Life. Truly, we appreciate you guys listening to us, 883 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 2: and we love y'all. Don't forget about being able to 884 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,839 Speaker 2: watch the Bear Grease Render podcast on Meat Eater's new 885 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 2: YouTube channel.