1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: the world, it's so great to have you here. Back 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: for another episode as we break down the psychology of 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: your twenties. We have a guest on today that I 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: I pursued. I'm gonna say it that way. I pursued her. Sorry, Ellie, 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: I just spoiled who you are, but you would have 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: read it in the title. I was like, I need 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: this person on for this topic. She is the perfect 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: person to discuss this, to discuss ADHD autism in our twenties. 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: She has such a unique story and an incredible voice 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: to this matter that I think is both personal but 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: also very informed and a little bit different. So welcome 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: Ellie Middleton. It's so great to have you here. 15 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, so nice to be here. Thanks 16 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 2: for the lovely introduction. I feel like I always sit 17 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: here like blushing at the style and people are saying 18 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: nice things about me. 19 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, yeah, that's me, Thank you so much. 20 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: No, I get that it's something you kind of have 21 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: to learn to take sometimes. But imagine if someone like 22 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: sat here and I was like, yeah, I'm not that 23 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: keen on this, like, thanks for coming on. I guess 24 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: like that would even more imparison. Yeah, that's true. And 25 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: you're calling in from the UK, so we got like 26 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: an international podcast crew going on here. 27 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know worldwide. 28 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: I know, missus worldwides here. So I kind of introduced 29 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: you briefly. You're Ellie Middleton. You have this incredible story. 30 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: You've just released a book on Masked, which is available 31 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: in the UK right now, hopefully by the time people 32 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: are listening to this internationally because it's incredible. But for 33 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: those of the listeners who don't know you, can you 34 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: just talk briefly about who you are, your story, your work, 35 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: kind of a free space to just chat Ellie, I. 36 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: Guess, yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'm Ellie. 37 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 2: I'm an artistic and ADHD content creator, speaker and writer. 38 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: So I guess the short version is that I got 39 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: diagnosed with both ADHD and autism when I was twenty four. 40 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: So up until that point, I'd always struggled with my 41 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: mental health, had quite a rough time in my teenage years, 42 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: but I'd always been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and 43 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: like anxiety related depression and panic disorder and agrophobia and 44 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: all that good stuff in the mental health space. But 45 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 2: then when I was kind of twenty four, kind of 46 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: realized that that didn't seem to really fit, like it 47 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: wasn't really explaining my experiences properly. Like I wasn't an 48 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: anxious person. I just became really overwhelmed really frequently, So 49 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: it wasn't like anxiety, it was overwhelmed. But I think 50 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: those two things are so closely linked that all the 51 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: doctors I'd seen in the past had kind of just 52 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: assumed that it was anxiety. But yeah, anyway, when I 53 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: was twenty four, I finally got diagnosed with both autism 54 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: and ADHD, and getting those diagnoses just like changed my 55 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: life completely, Like it just made everything made sense. It 56 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: made me kind of understand who I was, and I 57 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: kind of, I guess I've just felt so grateful that 58 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: I got those answers that I was like, oh, my goodness, 59 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: like I can finally like be myself now, I can 60 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: finally like work out how to make my mental health 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: better like all of this stuff. That I just felt 62 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: that there must be so many other people out there, 63 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: especially women, who were like in the same boat that 64 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: I was. So they had always been diagnosed with anxiety. 65 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: They knew that they were different somehow, like they knew 66 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: that something else was going on, but they just didn't 67 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: know what that thing was, and they just never had 68 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: been picked up by their doctors or their teachers or whatever. 69 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: It might be. 70 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: So I started speaking about it online, just like hoping, 71 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: like knowing that, like if I'd have seen me speaking 72 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: about it like a few years earlier, then it might 73 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: have been like, oh, that kind of sounds similar to me, 74 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: So maybe I should look into that as well, and 75 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: maybe I would have got diagnosed like a whole lot 76 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: sooner than I actually did. So kind of wanted to 77 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: try and at least like just make one person think, oh, 78 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: maybe that that could be me, and I could go 79 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: away and look into that as well, and then it 80 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: all kind of spiral from there, I guess. So I 81 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: kind of very quickly grew quite a big audience online 82 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: and then I go into quite a lot of companies 83 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: talking about how they can be more inclusive, and then yeah, 84 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: as very kindly mentioned, I've just written a book about it, 85 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: which is like my baby is like the protesting that 86 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: I've ever done. I'm so happy with it. I'm so 87 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: grateful that I've had the chance to do it. But yeah, 88 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I guess basically, I shout about the importance of like 89 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: understanding the way that your brain works and like being 90 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: gentle with yourself, but also kind of advocate for people 91 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 2: having the chance to get those answers because so many people, 92 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: like women, people marginalize their gender, people of color, where 93 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: people especially are spending so much of their lives undiagnosed 94 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: and just kind of being missed completely by the system. 95 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: So it's like honors to advocate for ourselves. So yeah, 96 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: that's a a long and short version. 97 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: I guess I love it. It's really interesting what you said. 98 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: What you just said about how you had this litany 99 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: of diagnoses before you got to the right one, And 100 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's even the right way of 101 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: saying it, Like it's almost like the answer seems quite 102 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: obvious now. I'm sure like you're probably questioning, like, how 103 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: come no one ever said this to me? How come 104 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: it was never an option, how come it was never 105 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: on the table. I'm sure that must have been so frustrating. 106 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: And speaking from like the experience of friends, I was saying, 107 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: I had a close friend who was recently diagnosed. And 108 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: when you said everyone just told me I was anxious, 109 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: I just immediately thought of her and how much that 110 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: that was always the reason given to her for this 111 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: pattern of behaviors, this pattern of tendencies, and it wasn't 112 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: the right answer. No one thought to look deeper into 113 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: it. It must be like so mentally frustrating. 114 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's like a couple of stories in 115 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: particular from my childhood and teenage years that I look 116 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: back now and I'm like, how the heck did nobody 117 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: like notice what was going on there? Like there's one 118 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: I think my mom like struggles with this one a lot, 119 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: Like I think she feels a lot of guilt. When 120 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 2: I'm an August baby, so I was always the youngest 121 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: in my year group. In the Uki year group's run 122 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: for I don't if it's same over there, but we 123 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: run from like September to August. So I'm like the 124 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: youngest in my year. And when I was at nursery, 125 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: so I was like three and the rest of the 126 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: kids in my year were four and we were about 127 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: to go up to primary school. The nursery teacher like 128 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,679 Speaker 2: pulled my mum in and was like Okay. Academically, Ellie's 129 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: definitely ready to go up to school, Like she's really bright, 130 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: she knows what's going on. But socially, you might want 131 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: to consider holding her back a year. 132 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: Like she's very shy. 133 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: She doesn't really interact with the other kids, like she's 134 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: just not really interested. Like we've tried to encourage her 135 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 2: to play in their games and do all these different things, 136 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: but all she really wants to do is like she 137 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: just comes in every day and I would like sit 138 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 2: in the same room, on the same table and just 139 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: do like painting every single day. And that was all 140 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: that was interested in. And I look back at that 141 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 2: now and it was kind of just like, oh, okay, well, 142 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: you know, she's just the youngest girl in the year, 143 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: so she's just a bit shy, Like it'll be fine, 144 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: it'll come with age, Like it's no, like, no worry. 145 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: She's just like a shy little girl. 146 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: And I look back and I'm like, if that was 147 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: like Elliott rather than Ellie or Ethan or whatever, it 148 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: might be like a little boy, a young boy that 149 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: is like very academically bright but struggles socially, does the 150 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: same thing every single day, Like I don't know, he's 151 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: lining up his dinosaurs in a row every single day. 152 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: He doesn't want to talk to anybody. They've tried to 153 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: encourage him to, like straight away, that would be like 154 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: alarm bells. They'd be looking into it, they'd be trying 155 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: to find out what was going on. They'd be thinking 156 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: that was autism. But because it was a little girl, 157 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: it was like, oh, she's just a bit shy, Like 158 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: it's fine, she's just a young girl. And it's like 159 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: that was like I was three years old at that point. 160 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: Like if I'd have been diagnosed at that point or 161 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: even had it looked into at that point, like my 162 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: whole life could have been so much different. And then 163 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: there's like kind of similar stories in high school where 164 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: teachers were saying that, like I was being had a 165 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: really hard time like socially and was kind of being 166 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: bullied quite badly. And one of my teachers had said, like, oh, well, 167 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: Ellie says things that are rude sometimes, so she can't 168 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: be upset when other people are rude back to her. 169 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: And my mum was like, well, what does she say 170 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: that's rude, because like she's not she's not a nasty person, 171 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: like she wouldn't she wouldn't do that, and then be like, oh, well, 172 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: she had got like an A rather than a star 173 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: in one of her exams, and she was kind of 174 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: saying to the other girls like, oh, I'm so annoyed 175 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: that I didn't get the A star that I wanted, 176 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: whereas some of the other girls had struggled to scrape 177 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: a C or a D and they were like, that's 178 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: kind of, you know, inappropriate. You shouldn't be saying that, 179 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: And I was like, well, I didn't know that that 180 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: was rude. Like I'm not saying that they should have 181 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: got an A or and a star. I'm just saying 182 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: that I'm upset with myself and not being able to 183 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: read those social cues is like a key sign of 184 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: autism as well. But instead it was like, oh, no, 185 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: she's just rude, she's just a bit, she's just whatever. 186 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: Like I think so much of it is closely tied 187 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: to misogyny unfortunately, but yeah, I think looking back, there's 188 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: like so many things where it is like, yeah, what 189 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: the heck, Like it was literally like I might as 190 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: well have had a neon sign flashing above my head. 191 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: That was like this girl is autistic, But no one 192 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: like ever kind of considered that that was what was 193 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: going on. 194 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: It's so interesting you point to misogyny and how I 195 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: think one of the deepest problems in how we approach neurodivergence, 196 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 1: particularly ADHD and autism, is that the entire diagnoses criteria 197 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: is built around the behavior of boys and the behavior 198 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: of men. And we know that culturally those two you know, 199 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: binaries that society often sees. They're raised different, they are 200 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: taught differently as to how to behave their personalities, their 201 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: temperaments are different. But when you have this kind of 202 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: systematic bias and the healthcare system, it's no wonder that 203 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: people such as yourself slip through and it's kind of 204 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: a tragedy. And I know you're like, the things that 205 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: you've done now is so amazing, But what if you 206 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: had had the opportunity to start at that earlier, What 207 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: if you had had that opportunity to actually get the 208 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: help you need, not experience so much self blame and 209 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: negative self belief when you were three, when you attend 210 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: when you were fifteen, Like, I'm sure that's really rough. 211 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: So I think you've kind of already touched on it. 212 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: But why do you think so many women in particular 213 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: struggle to receive a diagnosis, have their symptoms recognized, and 214 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: kind of alongside that, why is it always that they 215 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: get the anxiety diagnosis first before people consider other options, 216 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: other potential things going on. 217 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like you kind of nailed it really 218 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: well there, that the diagnostic criteria is just not set 219 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: up to account for the experiences of women, the experiences 220 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: of people marginalized for their gender, the experiences of people 221 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: of color. They're based on basically, like the easy way 222 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: to explain it is like the only people that these 223 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: psychologists were basing the research on was like the young 224 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: middle class white boys whose parents could have thought basically, 225 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 2: if they had a young boy that wasn't behaving in 226 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 2: the way that they wanted him to, they would pay 227 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: to take him to this private psychiatrist. And then they 228 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: were the people that the research was based on. So 229 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: anyone outside of that, their experiences are just not accounted 230 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: for in the diagnostic criteria. So I think one example, 231 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: like for me, this is a question that I had 232 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 2: to answer as a twenty four year old woman trying 233 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: to get diagnosed, and the question is, like, you know, say, 234 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: if this is like a highly highly true, a bit true, 235 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 2: not true, or slightly true, whatever, And it's like I 236 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 2: collect information about categories of things, for example, types of birds, 237 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: types of planes, types of car, types of plants or something. 238 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 2: So me reading that question, I'm like, well, no, I 239 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: don't collect information about any of those type of things. 240 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: And then like the more research you do, it's like, well, yeah, 241 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: that's because I'm not an eight. 242 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: Year old boy. I'm a twenty four year old woman. 243 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: Like I collect information about I don't know, if I 244 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: like a certain band, I will listen to their albums 245 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: over and over and over again. If I like a 246 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 2: certain fashion creator, I will like constantly be checking to 247 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 2: see if they've uploaded new content because I want to 248 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: see what's going on. Or if I like a certain 249 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 2: clothes brand, then I will like be obsessed with when 250 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: the new drops are coming out and checking the website 251 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: and like wanting everything to do. Like I do still 252 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 2: do the same thing of like having these really strong 253 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: interests that I become like obsessed with, but they're just 254 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: not birds, cars, trains, or planes, because they're very like 255 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: stereotypically like young boy interests. And I think that's like 256 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 2: a really good example of like just how much the 257 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: diagnostic criteria is not designed, Like it's like you could 258 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: sit there as a fully like one autistic person and 259 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: still get a really like low score on these tests 260 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: that they're doing, just because the questions don't explain your experience. 261 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 2: And there's other ones where it's like would you prefer 262 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: to go to a museum or to a party? And obviously, well, 263 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 2: I guess the correct answer is like they think that 264 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: you'd rather go to a museum as an autistic person, 265 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: And it's like, well, it kind of depends on on 266 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 2: the museum, Like am I going to Yeah, Like it's 267 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: like am I going? Like what sort of party is it? 268 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: Am I going with friends? Am I going with strangers? 269 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: Like it's like that question does not in any way 270 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: kind of explain whether I'm autistic or not. And I 271 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: think it's the same like with ADHD as well that 272 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 2: like I think it's like this like ditsy blonde stereotype 273 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: is one that I speak about in the book quite 274 00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 2: a lot, which I think is the reason why a 275 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: lot of girls go undiagnosed, because I mean, previously it 276 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: was kind of said that a lot more girls would 277 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 2: have like the inattentive type of ADHD, which is the 278 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: more like forgetfulness and struggling to concentrate and doodling and 279 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: rather than the hyperactive type, which is more like outwardly visible. 280 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: I guess so that was kind of an idea of like, well, 281 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: they're presenting a different type of ADHD which isn't as 282 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: outwardly visible. But I think we've kind of moved on 283 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: from that as well, to be like, maybe they're not 284 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: presenting any differently, like the experiences that they have on 285 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: any differently, they're just socialized in a different way. Like 286 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: I'm hyperve I have combined ADHD, which means I'm both 287 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: hyperactive and inattentive, but my hyperactivity is very much internal, 288 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: like my brain is like a million miles an hour 289 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 2: all of the time. So it wasn't ever at school 290 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 2: that I was like rocking backwards and forwards on my chair, 291 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: like causing chaos, Like the teachers were like finding me 292 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: annoying all of this stuff because girls are told to 293 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: behave to be quiet, whereas boys it's like, oh, boys 294 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: will be boys, like they're allowed to be a bit 295 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: more chaotic, and girls are very much socialized to fit 296 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: in to be well behaved, to be polite, to be sensible, 297 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,239 Speaker 2: to be like so much more mature, I guess, like typically, 298 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 2: So I think it's like a combination of the fact that, 299 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: like one, we're not getting diagnosed at a young age 300 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: because the diagnostic criteria aren't accounting for how we show up. 301 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: And then secondly, because we're not like learning that we're 302 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: different at a young age, we're then being socialized in 303 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: the way that kind of this patriarchal system socializes all 304 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: of like women and people marginalize for their gender. So 305 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: by the time, like by the time we get any older, 306 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: we're not showing any differences because we've learned how to 307 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: mask them and cover them up, Like my mum. We 308 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: have like a lot of conversations where it is obviously 309 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: that thing of like the grief I guess of getting 310 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: diagnosed later in life, where it's like what could have been, 311 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: Like I had to drop out of school, I had 312 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: to decline my offers, like I've had to quit jobs, 313 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: all of this stuff, and I'm like, that wouldn't have 314 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: happened if I'd have been diagnosed early. And like we've 315 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: had the conversation with my mum where my mum has 316 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: been like, but when I was fifteen was when I 317 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: first got referred to the mental health services in the UK, 318 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: And at that point they wouldn't have been able to Like, 319 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: I'm like, how could they not have seen like I 320 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: was seeing a psychiatrist every week? Like how like how 321 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: could they have not noticed that that was what was 322 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: going on for me? And it's like, well, by that point, 323 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have been able to see it in you 324 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: because you were doing such a good job of covering 325 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: it up. Like by that time, you'd have like you 326 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: were in high school, you'd learned that you had to 327 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: fit in, you had to make friends, you had to survive, 328 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: so you weren't showing any differences for them to pick 329 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: up on. 330 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: All that they were being able to visibly. 331 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: See was the fact that you were having these like 332 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: meltdowns and shut downs and becoming overwhelmed because it was 333 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: almost like you were keeping it all in for such 334 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: a long time that then it had all just like 335 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: burst out in these like intense things that would look 336 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: a lot like pan attacks, because it was just that 337 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: I like would become so overwhelmed, I won't be able 338 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: to speak, I would be crying I'd be overwhelmed, and 339 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: it's like, well, that's all that they had to work 340 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: with because they couldn't see all of that that you 341 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: were holding it in, like containing it. 342 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: Most of the time. 343 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: They just saw these kind of like volcano eruptions of 344 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: when it came out. So yeah, I think it's a 345 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: really it all like ties into it as well, and 346 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: it's like equally as well. 347 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 3: The more that. 348 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: The diagnostic criteria only account for the experiences of these 349 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: like young white CIS boys, the more that they're the 350 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: only people that do get diagnosed. So it's like they're 351 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: the only people that are going about life with a diagnosis. Yeah, 352 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: So then it's like that kind of reinforces it of 353 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: like they're the only people, like the only people that 354 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: you would meet I guess that would know that they 355 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: were autistic, and ADHD is those people. So then in 356 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: your head you're like, oh, well, everyone that I've met 357 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: that's autistic is a young white boy, so maybe it's 358 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: just young white boys. And it kind of goes like 359 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: it goes on for such a long time, Like now 360 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: I think we're seeing a wave of like, yeah, people 361 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: in their twenties, thirties, forties getting a diagnosis and realizing 362 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: for themselves and you know, whether that's medical diagnosis or 363 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: self diagnosing or all of these things, like, but they're 364 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: realizing later in life. And I think that's amazing that 365 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: we're like catching all of these people that were missed. 366 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: But I still don't know if we're getting any better 367 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: at picking up the girls like the Elliot three in 368 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: the Like, I don't. Yeah, I still it's almost like 369 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's amazing that we're finding out now, 370 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: but we we need to fix it so we don't 371 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: have to find out, like the next group of people 372 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: don't have to find out in their twenties they find 373 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: out at the same time. 374 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really like tricky one. 375 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: I think to fix without they basically just need to 376 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: like redo the whole research and the whole diagnostic criteria. 377 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: I guess it honestly sounds like that and also like 378 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: to avoid that grief that you spoke about. But from 379 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: what you've said, it's like, yeah, it doesn't account for 380 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: differences and gender, in sex, in ethnicity, in really anything. 381 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: And then it also sounds like they kind of haven't 382 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: adapted it for like a new generation that has a 383 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: new and vironment like social media, like technology, and something 384 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: you said really stood out for me there. It was, 385 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, going online and following a certain influencer or 386 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: following a certain fashion company. That is a whole new 387 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: way of kind of processing our environment and how symptoms 388 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: might show up. And I think that that profile that 389 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: we spoke about is only going to be exacerbated if 390 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: you don't have those nuances, not just for different groups, 391 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: but for different generations that are also growing up more 392 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: aware of it. The final thing that I that I 393 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: think is actually really interesting if you've ever spent much 394 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: time looking into neurodivergence ADHD, autism, but autism in particular, 395 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: the idea of masking is really fascinating. And your book 396 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: is Unmasked, fabulous title, big shout out to that, But 397 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: can you explain what that means? Because I think that 398 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the time, and this is one of 399 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: my biggest pet peeves with discussions in the mental health 400 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: CAMUT is that terms that actually have a real clinical 401 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: and personal meaning for people get adapted to mean something 402 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: a lot more colloquial and a lot more every day. 403 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: So for people who've maybe heard that term don't know 404 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: what it means, what does it mean to mask? What 405 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: does it mean to unmask? I guess as well. 406 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, so masking put very kind of simply is covering 407 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 2: up your neurodivergent traits to appear more neurotypical. 408 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: So it was typically and like. 409 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 2: First used by the autistic community, so basically covering up 410 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: your artistic traits to appear realistic or non autistic. But 411 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: I guess it's kind of yeah, spread out to be 412 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: used more widely by the neurodivergent community. But I guess 413 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: the important thing is to say, like, it's not a 414 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 2: choice a lot of the time, like it's a safety 415 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: thing of like I have grown up learning that I 416 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 2: have to behave a certain way to be accepted, to 417 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: avoid being ostracized, like to get through situations like And 418 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's both. It's both conscious behavior and 419 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: like subconscious or unconscious behaviors. So it can be things 420 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: that are super simple, like for example, as an artistic person, 421 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: I struggle with eye contact. Like eye contact to me 422 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: just it feels like I'm literally you're starring into my soul. 423 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: Like it feels so uncomfortable. 424 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: But when I was growing up, I was told you 425 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: have to look at people in the eye when you're 426 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: speaking to them, like, that's a polite thing to do, 427 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: Like look at me when I'm talking to you, show 428 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 2: me that you're listening to me. All of these things. 429 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: So I just learned, Okay, that's the right thing to 430 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: do talking to people. 431 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: So I would just. 432 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: Force myself to do that, and that's just the way 433 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: that I learned to behave even though that's not a 434 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: natural thing for me at all. But I almost didn't 435 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: know at that point that it wasn't a natural thing 436 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 2: for me because I didn't know that I was autistic. 437 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: So it was like, oh, everyone must find it. There's uncomfortable, 438 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 2: and everyone must just force themselves to do it because 439 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: it's polite. 440 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 3: So I've got to do that as well. 441 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: So it can be like things as simple as that 442 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: all the way through to things like the things that 443 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: you're talking about. So we kind of touched on, like before, 444 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: the special interest autistic people have where you'd have like 445 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 2: one topic that you like a ride and die for, 446 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: basically like you're obsessed with this topic, you love it, 447 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: you are so interested in it, but you might have 448 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 2: learned that if you talk about it all the time, 449 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: then people are like God, can we talk about something else, please, 450 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: like or not this again, Like so you've learned to 451 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: do the small talk that other people do, or you've 452 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: learned that I don't know at high school, like when 453 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: you're a teenager, like oh, it's it was supposed to 454 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: talk about the boys that we fancy, and we're supposed 455 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: to talk about the clothes that we wear. So I'll 456 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 2: talk about those things instead because that people like me 457 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: if I talk about those things and like yeah, it's 458 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: like a whole range of experiences and it's something that 459 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: is so I guess ingrained as well. Like for me, 460 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: I guess I thought when I got my diagnosis that 461 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: I was like woho, Like I'm on mask now, like 462 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: I can be myself, Like I've learned that I'm adehg. 463 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 2: I've learned that I'm autistic, Like here we go, Like 464 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: I can be myself, but still like to this day, 465 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: I'm masks so so heavily, like now I'm I'm masking. 466 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 2: Probably I'm like speaking in a way like my natural 467 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 2: tone of voice is quite like blunt and quite monotonous. 468 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: Whereas I've learned that that's not well received by It's 469 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: not easy for people to listen to it's not easy 470 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: to get my point across. So I've kind of learned 471 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: to speak in a more up and down way, in 472 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: a more bubbly way. But it's not meming. I've not 473 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: go on this call and been like I need to 474 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: you know, come on, Ellie, let's like, let's put our 475 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: best accent on and talk in this certain way. It's 476 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: just a natural thing that when I talk to people 477 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: it comes out like this now because it's so ingrained 478 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: in the way that I am. And I think, yeah, 479 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: that's something that I underestimated so much of like how 480 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: difficult it would be to unmask? Like I think I 481 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: was like, you know, I've got the answers now, like 482 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: here we go, like let's be ourselves. And it's like, actually, no, 483 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: Like it's it's so I don't even know who's under there, really, 484 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: because I've spent my whole life being ye some like 485 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: being someone else and copying the people around me and 486 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: doing what I've been told to do, and it's like 487 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to be. 488 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 3: Like it's so it's so much easier to slip into 489 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 3: this car that has. 490 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: Been so defined and you've had twenty four years of 491 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: practicing this character to then actually being yourself, which is 492 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: like your real self, is so much more like I 493 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: don't know how to explain this, Like there's no black 494 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: and white, really, it's very much more gray areas. It's 495 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: very nuanced, it's very flowing, like we're all kind of fluid, 496 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: Whereas that character was clearly defined, like this is what 497 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: Ellie likes, this is what Elle doesn't like, this is 498 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: how Ellie behaves, this is how Ellie doesn't behave. So 499 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 2: it's so much easier to fall into that, like you've 500 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: got the rules of how to behave, whereas if you're 501 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: trying to actually I guess it's the same for everybody. 502 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: When you're trying to be yourself, it's you don't know 503 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: exactly what that looks like, but I think it's the 504 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: same thought unmasking of like I know that I naturally 505 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: speak in a certain way when I'm around other people, 506 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: but how do I like, I don't know how I 507 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 2: speak naturally because I don't speak to myself when I'm 508 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: at home on my own, do I Like? That's when 509 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: I'm the most unnasty is when I'm at home on 510 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: my own, not being perceived by other people not interacting 511 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 2: with other people, but then I'm not having conversations then 512 00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: because I'm on my own. So it's like, how do 513 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: I even get to know that kind of thing? But yeah, 514 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: it's I guess it's it. That's the kind of a 515 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: very long explanation, but basically covering up your your neurodivergent 516 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: traits to appear neurotypical, and a lot of the time 517 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: it's like done without realizing or done for safety or 518 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 2: And I think it's like important to point out as 519 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: well that like I'm quite lucky that I'm able to 520 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: unmask in certain ways because I'm very like non threatening. 521 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: I guess, like I'm a small white woman. I you know, 522 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 2: I have got pretty privilege. I'm like quite slim, I'm 523 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 2: quite small, Whereas like a six foot five black man 524 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: can't do that in the same way that I can, 525 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: because where I'm stood outside rocking backwards and forwards, feeling 526 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: stressed out, and that's like, oh, look at this poor 527 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: young lady who's having a difficult time, Whereas if a 528 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: black man does the same thing, it's like he's getting aggressive, 529 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: he's been dangerous, like that could be like, you know, 530 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: that could be a I risk for his safety. 531 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: It could it could end up. 532 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: In him being in prison, it could end up it 533 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: getting really like dangerous situations. So unmasking is like a 534 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 2: necessary thing for us to do to be able to 535 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: be healthy because it is so draining, like do it 536 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: like covering yourself up all of the time without realizing. 537 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: But it's also a huge privilege to be able to 538 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: do that as well, because it can be like perceived 539 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: in different ways for different people depending on what you 540 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: look like. It can you know, be yeah, like even 541 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: even me sometimes, like I've had times where I've been 542 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: super tired and I've had loads going on, so I've 543 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: been more in mass and I've kind of spoken more 544 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: bluntly to people without realizing just that I'm kind of 545 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: my tank is so empty that i don't have it 546 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: in me to like cover it up anymore. And people 547 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: have been like, you know, you're being rude, like why 548 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: are you being off with me? And I'm like, I'm 549 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: not being off with you. I'm just like all I've 550 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: got in me to do right now is communicate in 551 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: the most concise and like natural way, Whereas that can 552 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 2: like be end up in people thinking you're behaving a 553 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: certain way, And yeah, I think it's a it's like 554 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: a it's both like the thing that I guess a 555 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: lot of people are aiming for being able to unmask, 556 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: but it's also comes with like dangers for certain people, 557 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: and it comes with being misunderstood and like maybe being 558 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: kind of yeah, yeah, misunderstood. 559 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: A discriminated against. Yeah, I think that's the thing. Like, 560 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: that's so interesting. When you said that, I was like, 561 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: I actually had never thought about that before. I've never 562 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: thought about that, And I think it's such an interesting thing, 563 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: once again, an argument to retire the profile of like 564 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: we it's it's so linked to not just misogyny, like 565 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: we've spoken about like racism, like prejudice in so many 566 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: in so many like intricate ways. And I think also 567 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: because we as a society have really been taught from 568 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: a young age how you are supposed to act, which 569 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: has contributed to the masking. Right, there is a I think, 570 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: very defined formula of like correctness and politeness that people 571 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: are taught from a very young age. That also means 572 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: that not only have you kind of forced yourself to 573 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: take upon what sounds like a character, what sounds like 574 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: a persona no wonder you don't know who's underneath that 575 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: you've been method acting for twenty four years, like method 576 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: acting to like an A plus standard, like to the 577 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: point where doctors couldn't even see through it. Like that's 578 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of like insane, that that's just that's it, like 579 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: so hard for me to even comprehend how exhausting that 580 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: must be. 581 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: But I think it. 582 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: Also from what I'm hearing from you, comes from this 583 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: idea that we actually don't know a lot as a 584 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: general population about what this looks like because of how 585 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: we've been taught to say it. So that kind of 586 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: leads to my next question, which is, like, what are 587 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: some of the elements of neurodivergence that you think there 588 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: needs to be more conversations around that is excluded from 589 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: the narrative that is maybe less comfortable to speak about 590 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: or people are less informed about, not because it's rare, 591 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: just because we aren't having conversations about it. 592 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think think so. 593 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: In the book, I have like chapter the first couple 594 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: of chapters are where I go through like the kind 595 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 2: of scientific basics of like what actually is ADHD, what 596 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: actually is autism? And what is the diagnostic criteria that 597 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: a doctor will go through to decide if you have 598 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: it or not. But then the next chapter after that 599 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: is like translating those traits to how they show up 600 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 2: in real life, because I think that's where the education 601 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: is missing in society of like we understand to a 602 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: certain level the traits like on paper, but we don't 603 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: understand how that translates to real life experience, especially in 604 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: people that aren't the young white boys. So, like, one 605 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: example is literal thinking is I think one that we 606 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: all know that autistic people are literal thinkers, but the 607 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: way that we've been told of that is like that 608 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: they don't understand jokes or we don't understand sarcasm, or 609 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: we don't understand like sayings you know where it's like 610 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: I don't know break a leg and stuff like that, 611 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: And they're the examples that are given on like the 612 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: medical website and stuff like that. But actually, literal thinking 613 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: and literal processing for me means that I take words 614 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: as gospel. Like if someone tells me something, I will 615 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: believe it because they've told me it, so I take 616 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: it very literally that it must be true. So even 617 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: if you know someone when I was younger, my parents 618 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: couldn't say McDonald's out loud because if they said, like, oh, maybe, well, 619 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: you know, if you're good, maybe we'll get a McDonald's 620 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: on the way home, I'd be like, but you said 621 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: if I was good, we could have McDonald's, and I've 622 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: been good, so we need to go and get McDonald's, 623 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, Like I would take it very like literally 624 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: what they said, but also like it goes the other 625 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: way of like if you haven't told me something, I 626 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: won't know it to be true because I'm a very 627 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: literal person. So whereas other people might assume that something's 628 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: like going on in the background, or like that someone 629 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: else has got something going on, for example, or that 630 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: things are happening. If you don't tell me something, then 631 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: I don't know it. So like for example, like recently, 632 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: my dad's had quite a lot going on at work, 633 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: and like the rest, like my mum will be like, 634 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: you know, if he's stressed at home, it's because he's 635 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: got a lot going on at work. 636 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 3: But I'm like, but. 637 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: If he doesn't tell me, you know, other people might 638 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: be able to think, oh, he's acting different, maybe something's 639 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: causing him to act different, whereas I'm like, but if 640 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: you don't tell me that you've got a lot going 641 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: on at work, I don't know that you've got a 642 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: lot going on at work. So I'm thinking, why is 643 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: my dad not talking to me? Or why is my 644 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: dad seeming stress? Like what's going on? Like I'm trying 645 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: to solve that problem, but I don't have the information 646 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 2: because no one has said, your dad's got a lot 647 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: on his plate at the moment. So it's that like, 648 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, people think, oh, yeah, I understand the autistic 649 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 2: people literal thinkers, but it's like, okay, no, but you 650 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: think that I can't understand sarcasm, But actually it's that 651 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: I can only process the world with the information that 652 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: I am like physically given, like in black and white basically. 653 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: So I think that's like, yeah, people don't understand how 654 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: the traits actually show up in real life. So I 655 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: think that's like a big one that I have tried 656 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: to kind of go through each trait and that way 657 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 2: of being like, Okay, this is what you know, what 658 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: we think it is, and this is how it actually 659 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: shows up for people. And then I think another really 660 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: big one, especially with ADHD, is RSD, which is rejection 661 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: sensitive dysphoria, and it's basically like real bad emotional dysregulation, 662 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: and it's like this basically very extreme response in response 663 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: to kind of perceived or real rejection. So if you 664 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: think that someone's upset with you, or you think that 665 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: you're being rejected, or you think that you haven't done 666 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: a good job or anything is like pointing you in 667 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: the direction of some sort of perceived rejection, then it's 668 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: like a full body like it feels like the world 669 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: is closing in on you because you've just been rejected 670 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: in that way. And I think that's I think that's 671 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: a big one as to why so many women don't 672 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 2: get diagnosed or they do throw the young sciety card 673 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: or the depression card, because all they're seeing again is 674 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: these like extreme emotional reactions and they're like hormones, anxiety 675 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 2: or like all of these things. 676 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: Or BPD as well, Like, yeah, that would be another 677 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: one where I'm like, so that sluts in. 678 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I actually yeah, when I so, before I 679 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 2: got to my actual diagnosis, when I kind of got 680 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: to the point where I was like, anxiety is not 681 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: quite right, but I didn't have the answers yet. I 682 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: actually went through there was like a couple of months 683 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: where I was convinced that I had BPD. I was like, 684 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: I started researching online and that was the first thing 685 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: that came up, like you know, mood swings going from 686 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: being really high to being really low, like kind of 687 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: irrational behavior and like when someone's leaving, like you know, 688 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: having abandonment issues. And I was like, that's me. I 689 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: was like, all of these things are me. I've found 690 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: the answer, like I've got BPD. And I was like 691 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: literally going to my doctors. I was like, I need 692 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: to be referred for a BPD assessment, like I've got BPD, 693 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 2: Like I found the answer, this is it. And they're like, no, Elliott, 694 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: it's not, like that's not you. And I was I 695 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 2: was like, no, but it is. It is, and like, 696 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it isn't, but yeah, the experiences, 697 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: Like I read those traits and I was like, that's me. 698 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 3: That's me, that's me, that's me. But yeah, yeah exactly. 699 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: And I think what makes it even more I was 700 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: actually having this conversation with a friend yesterday. What makes 701 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: it even more difficult is that things like BPD and 702 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: CPTSD are caused by trauma and growing up as an 703 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: undiagnosed autistic person or undiagnosed person with ADHD that is 704 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: trauma in itself. You're you're masking all the time, You're 705 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: living in a world that's not designed for you. You're constantly misunderstood, 706 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: You're constantly told that what you're like, if you're yourself, 707 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: it's wrong. You're constantly told that you're lazy, or that 708 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: you're sensitive or all of these things. Like growing up 709 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: as an undiagnosed you're ad divergent person is trauma. And 710 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: these other conditions that are so similar in their experiences 711 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: are caused by trauma. So it's like, how the heck 712 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 2: are you supposed to disentangle? Like it's so common for 713 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: people to have a combination of all of these things. 714 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: Like I am almost certain that I've got CPTSD because 715 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: just the things that happened in my teenage years and 716 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: the way that I respond now to things that happen 717 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: versus like it's I'm not just dealing with the thing 718 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: that's happening, I'm dealing with all of the stuff that 719 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 2: happened when I was undiagnosed, but that the actual experience 720 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: it like it'd be really difficult for me to get 721 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: diagnosed with CPTSD because they could probably explain away all 722 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: of the experiences that I was having through ADHD emotional dysregulation, 723 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: protecting sensitive dysphoria, through autism, like being hypervigilant. That's again 724 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 2: like I'm autistic, so I have Yeah, I'm autistic, so 725 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 2: i pick up on things really easily, and I'm really 726 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: sensitive to sound, and I'm really sensitive to change, and 727 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 2: I like to have a routine and all of those 728 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 2: things also our behaviors that people with CPTSD would show 729 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: because it's hypervigilance, it's protecting yourself, it's all of those 730 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: Like it is just a minefield of like over laugh 731 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 2: and complication, and I think, yeah, that's a really kind 732 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 2: of big, big thing that a lot of people face 733 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: of like what is going on here? And a lot 734 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 2: of the time it's probably a bit of a combination 735 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: of everything. 736 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: So interesting as well, because it's only been recently that 737 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: people can actually get more than one diagnosis, like it 738 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: used to be like here, you have bipologus order, you 739 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: have borderline personality disorder, you have autism. There's your box, 740 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: sit in it now, And I think you point to 741 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: a really interesting point that a lot of people don't understand, 742 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: which is that your experience with mental illness can actually 743 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: create further mental illness and actually can be a trigger 744 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: for things like complex post traumatic stress disorder. I think 745 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: we often think about that in particular. It's really a 746 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: really like that you brought that in. We think about 747 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: trauma in the sense of something really really terrible, external, 748 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: violent happening to you. But trauma is just like the 749 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: disruption of security and peace and you know, safety that 750 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: is as simple as it is, and that can come 751 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: from so many different things, including like an experience of 752 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: growing up in as you said, a world that is 753 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,479 Speaker 1: not designed for you. That is so traumatic, and it's 754 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: not just one of it. It's a continuous cumulation of stress, 755 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: of anxiety, of as you said, masking. So I'm glad 756 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: that you brought that up, and I think it literally 757 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: leads into this next thing, which is if I'm sure, 758 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: I'm so sure that there is probably someone listening to 759 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: this right now who is like, holy shit, why is 760 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: this describing me? I thought I had VPD. Everyone told 761 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: me I had anxiety. I was said rude things when 762 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: I was a teenager without realizing it, without even consciously knowing. 763 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: So what would your advice be to someone who thinks 764 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: that they have ADHD they have autism in the same 765 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: position you now that they're an adult in their twenties. 766 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: Like you said, there's going to be so many more 767 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: people who are coming through in the next few decades 768 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: who could have received a diagnosis at three, nine, ten, 769 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: but aren't going to do so until they're twenty. What's 770 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: your advice as someone who kind of lived that. 771 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a really really tricky one now 772 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: because because of the fact that so many more people 773 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 2: are realizing, it means that services and support just aren't there. 774 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: Like the waiting lists to get an actual diagnosis are 775 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 2: so long, it's so tricky to get diagnosed. And also 776 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 2: the medical professionals are kind of a lot of the 777 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 2: time behind us in our understanding. Like they were trained, however, 778 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 2: many years ago, when they were at university or whatever 779 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: it might be, they were taught the stereotypical diagnostic criteria. 780 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 2: They were taught that it was more common in CIS 781 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 2: boys than it was in anybody else. You know, they 782 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 2: maybe don't have the understanding to be able to see 783 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 2: your experiences and see them for what they are even 784 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: if that's if you're even kind of lucky enough to 785 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: get in the room with somebody, Like now, waiting lists 786 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 2: are really long, like private assessments are really expensive. Like 787 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: it's a really tricky time at the moment because it's 788 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 2: like so many people are having these realizations and then 789 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: they can't really go away and do anything with that. 790 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 2: So I would say, like my first point is like 791 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: that self diagnosis is completely valid and is kind of 792 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 2: necessary in the current world that. 793 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 3: We live in. 794 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: I think with ADHD it's slightly different because medication can 795 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 2: be helpful, and obviously you would need to see and 796 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: have a medical diagnosis and see a professional for that. 797 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 2: But other than that, like you are the expert of 798 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 2: your own experiences. If you're going through all of this information, 799 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: if you're doing all of these online tests and you're 800 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 2: seeing that, yeah, this is right for me, this is 801 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 2: who I am, then you can tell you can give 802 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 2: yourself that ance that you don't need to have like 803 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: a green tick of approval from a medical professional, because 804 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 2: it's just. 805 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 3: You know, in an ideal world, yes. 806 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 2: We would all be able to go and see a 807 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 2: psychiatrist and get those answers, but we don't live in 808 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: an ideal world. We live in a world where it's 809 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: impossible to do that for a lot of people at 810 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 2: the moment, and it's a privilege to be able to 811 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 2: do that. So like, firstly, yeah, that's completely a valid 812 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 2: thing to do, and also like remembering that it's not 813 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 2: a piece of paper from a doctor that changes your life. 814 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 2: It's changing your life that changes your life. So it's like, I, 815 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: you know, anyone can change the way that they're working. 816 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 2: They can work more flexibly, they can give themselves more rest, 817 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: they can honor their sensory needs more, they can wear 818 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,439 Speaker 2: ear defenders when they're in noisy venues, they can buy 819 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 2: planners that will help them manage their time better. They 820 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 2: can you know, all of these things that are the 821 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: reason that my life is so much better now. Anyone 822 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: can do it. 823 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: Does need a. 824 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 2: Doctor to go, Yes you are autistic. Yes you have 825 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: ADHD for you to be able to do those things. 826 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: So I think it's really you know, the narrative at 827 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 2: the moment that like, oh, everyone's self diagnosing and you 828 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: have to you know, you don't know, but you do know, 829 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 2: like you can do that for yourself. And I would 830 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 2: say the main thing as well. That helped me in 831 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 2: terms of like validation and actually understanding and feeling comfortable 832 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 2: in knowing that that was what was going on for 833 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 2: me was looking like searching out the experiences of other 834 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 2: people that had similar lived experience to mine. So, like 835 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 2: we were saying, when I was reading through the diagnostic criteria, 836 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 2: there were some things where I was like, hmm, you know, 837 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,280 Speaker 2: maybe that's me, but it doesn't one hundred percent sound 838 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: like me. But then I would go onto social media 839 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 2: and I would find another twenty twenty something year old 840 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 2: woman talking about her experience of that thing, and I'd 841 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: be like, oh, yeah, that's just like me. 842 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 3: I do that, I'm exactly the. 843 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: Same as that because obviously if we're both the same age, 844 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 2: the same gender, and we have similar interests, then the 845 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 2: way that our traits show up are going to be 846 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: more similar as well. So I think that's a really 847 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 2: helpful thing to do. You know, if you're a woman, 848 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 2: look for the experiences of women. If you're a person 849 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 2: of color, look for the experiences of people of color. 850 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 2: If you're a mother, looks for the experiences of other mothers, 851 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: Like look for people who have similar like a wider 852 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: range of similar experience to yours than the way that 853 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 2: their trade show up is probably more likely to going 854 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: to be more similar to yours as well. So I 855 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 2: think that's a really helpful that for me, that was 856 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 2: like what kind of tipped me over the edge from hmm, 857 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 2: maybe maybe I should look into these things to Yeah, 858 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 2: I'm confident that this is what's going on for me 859 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 2: was seeing other people who were similar to me talking 860 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 2: about their experiences because they were obviously a lot more 861 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 2: similar to mine. 862 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 3: So I would say. 863 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: That that is like the best, the best thing that 864 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: I could recommend. It's like a far from ideal situation 865 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 2: because it's like I obviously would love for everybody to 866 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 2: be able to get the actual answers and the support 867 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: that they need and the medication that they need for 868 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 2: ADHD if they choose to do that, but it's a 869 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 2: tricky time at the moment where these services are just overloaded. 870 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 2: So I think just like knowing like that it's okay 871 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 2: to self diagnose that it's okay to put these things 872 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 2: in place for yourself without someone telling you that you're 873 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: allowed to do that, and then also seeking out the 874 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 2: experience and even like connecting with other neurodivergent people where 875 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: you can like for me, obviously, I'm kind of very 876 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 2: public about it. It's my job to talk about it online. 877 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 2: But the friends I have made through doing that and 878 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 2: having autistic friends ADHD friends has literally been the best 879 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life. 880 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 2: Like I've always had such a hard I've had such 881 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 2: a hard time with friendships, Like school was awful for me, 882 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: Like I think I massively underestimate it actually, where it's 883 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: been one of those things where I've just had to 884 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 2: survive it. So I just I'm like, we don't talk 885 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 2: about school, we don't think about it, like I dropped 886 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 2: out of school. I had I was bullied awfully, Like 887 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: I just had an awful time, And I guess I 888 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 2: just kind of got used to the fact that, Okay, 889 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 2: maybe I'm never gonna find their friendship group, maybe I'm 890 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 2: never gonna fit in anywhere, because it just doesn't seem 891 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: to have happened up to now, Whereas now I'm like, 892 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 2: oh no, I actually can find people that I relate to, 893 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 2: where I was just not finding the right people. So 894 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 2: I think if you can join communities, I have another 895 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 2: Instagram account called We Are Unmasked, which is a community 896 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 2: for your divergent people, and we try and set up event. 897 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 2: It's kind of on the back burner at the moment 898 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 2: because I've been writing a book and stuff, but yeah, 899 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 2: hopefully we'll be doing more like online events and things 900 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 2: like that, and even just looking through the comments, you'll 901 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 2: be able to find people who are in a similar 902 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 2: position to you. And I think finding those friendships is 903 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: like a huge thing that you can do for validation 904 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 2: as well. 905 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I honestly love that, not just I 906 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: obviously don't have ADHD or autism, but like even from 907 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: my perspective, if you can relate to that, like the 908 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: best is yet to come, Like you're not going to 909 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: find your people in a high school of six hundred people, 910 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: Like maybe you will, but the world is so much 911 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: bigger and broader and wider than that you have no 912 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: idea what's coming, and not in an anxious sense, in 913 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: like the most beautiful sense. And also I really like 914 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: that point because I think in the cycle the point 915 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: you made earlier, like the psychology community, there is a 916 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: big fuss around like ADHD is so overdiagnosed. Everyone's on 917 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, Riddlin or adderall whatever. And I'm like, okay, great, 918 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: are you their doctor? No, So you have no opinion 919 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: on this. Literally, you're someone on the internet who has 920 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: made their mind up around what this does and doesn't 921 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: look look like. And I think that is so insulting. 922 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: And it's additionally the thing of like I always think 923 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: about the comparison to depression. You can know you're depressed 924 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: without a doctor telling you, and you can do things 925 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: in your life to mitigate that. What is to say 926 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: that you can't do that for other things as well? 927 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: And obviously medication comes into it. You might need a 928 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: helping hand in that sense, but it doesn't mean that 929 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: you have to wait until someone goes Yeah, you're like 930 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: approved for a diagnosis to be making the changes that 931 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: you think are going to benefit your life. So I 932 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: think that's such a beautiful message. One final question but 933 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: I would love for you to answer, is you've just 934 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 1: released a book. I know we've talked about it so much, 935 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: and I honestly hearing your story of being like I 936 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: had to drop out of high school. I was bullied. 937 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: I never for what I was going to get that far. 938 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: That's and here you are now is like honestly quite emotional. 939 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: So what would you tell that person, that kind of 940 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,280 Speaker 1: younger version of you who was really struggling for answers? 941 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a big one is like focus on 942 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 2: the people that love you rather. 943 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 3: Than the ones that don't. 944 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 2: So I think, like, especially through high school, I think like, 945 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 2: obviously I didn't know that I was asking. I didn't 946 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 2: know that was autistic. Was that I had ADHD, but 947 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 2: I always had it was almost like an internal thing 948 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 2: where I always tried to become friends with the popular people. 949 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 2: I think it was like this innate need to fit in, 950 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 2: this innate need to be liked, to be approved of, 951 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,879 Speaker 2: like to be validated, that I would always like try 952 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,959 Speaker 2: and be friends with the popular group and it would 953 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 2: always end badly for me, like I had so many time. 954 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 2: I can literally could probably point to like ten different 955 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 2: times in my life where I've sat down with my 956 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 2: mum and she's been like, Ellie, why do you always 957 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 2: try to be friends with like the loud girls, the 958 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,280 Speaker 2: popular girls, Like they're not like you, like you're you're soft, 959 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,399 Speaker 2: you're gentle, Like it's it doesn't end well for you, 960 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 2: like why? And it was almost like I think like 961 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 2: all kind of women and people marginalized for the gender 962 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 2: that have gone through high school know that feeling of 963 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 2: like it's a rock and a hard place, Like it's 964 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 2: like the plastics Inminger, Like if you're friends with them, 965 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 2: then it's life as hell, but if you're not friends 966 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 2: with them, then it's even worse. So I think it 967 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 2: was that thing of like I would always try to 968 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 2: be liked by everybody and by the popular people, whereas actually, 969 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 2: if I'd have got there on my first day in 970 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 2: year seven and gone, I actually really like maths, I 971 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 2: actually really like puzzles. I you know, maybe I should 972 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 2: make some friends that maybe other people are gonna call 973 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 2: us weird. Maybe we're not gonna have the nicest time either, 974 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 2: but I'm at least gonna have these three solid friends 975 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 2: that we all love each other for our weirdness and 976 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 2: our geekiness and our strangeness and all of whatever it 977 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 2: might be like that would have been. It still wouldn't 978 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 2: have been easy, right, because no one has a nice 979 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 2: time at high school, especially if you're like different in 980 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 2: any way. But at least I would have had like 981 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 2: the like that solid group of friends that would have 982 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 2: loved me for me whereas I was still like focused 983 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 2: on making everybody like me or trying to fit in 984 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 2: with the popular people that I kind of denied myself 985 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 2: the opportunity to make friends that might not have been 986 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 2: as popular, but they would have been friends. So I 987 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 2: think that would be my thing of like focus on 988 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 2: finding people that love you for you rather than being 989 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,919 Speaker 2: like it's that thing of like, don't be everyone's cup 990 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 2: of tea, be like someone's shot of whiskey, or I 991 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 2: don't know whatever the saying is of like basically. 992 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 1: I never heard that, but I love that. I'm gonna slide. 993 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 3: I don't even know if that's right. We've made it 994 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 3: up now it's we'll go with it. 995 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, kind of that thing of like trying to 996 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 2: focus on finding a place rather than being like mass liked, 997 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 2: I think would have been a good one for me 998 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 2: to know. And I think almost like I think it's 999 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,919 Speaker 2: one of those things where it's like it's a worse 1000 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 2: thing that someone can say to you at the time, 1001 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 2: but over time you realize that it's so true of 1002 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 2: just like trusting the process, Like I genuinely thought that 1003 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 2: because I didn't go to union, because I dropped out 1004 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 2: of school, like that was it. I was never going 1005 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 2: to get anywhere in life, Like I was going to 1006 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 2: be miserable. I was going to do low paid jobs. 1007 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 2: I was never going to be successful. I was going 1008 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 2: to be overworked. Like when actually, you know, I've been 1009 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 2: really lucky. I'm really grateful for what's happened. But I've 1010 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 2: not needed a degree for any of this, Like I've 1011 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,240 Speaker 2: not needed high school. 1012 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 3: Qualifications for any of this. 1013 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 2: It has all worked out in the end, and like 1014 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 2: maybe it could have worked out a lot sooner. But 1015 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 2: I think just like trusting that you don't have to 1016 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 2: do things the way that everyone else is doing them, 1017 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 2: Like you can do what it's better that you drop 1018 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 2: out and you're still healthy and you're well, you're working 1019 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 2: on becoming healthy again, and you're looking after yourself and 1020 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 2: you're being gentle with yourself. Then forcing yourself to do 1021 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 2: things because you think that you should do them and 1022 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 2: you think that's the only way that you're going to 1023 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 2: achieve anything, and all of that stuff, and I guess, yeah, 1024 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 2: reading like the Path and redefining what success is I 1025 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 2: think was because I think, yeah, at school, there's so 1026 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 2: much pressure of like you have to be the top 1027 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 2: grade student, you have to go to UNI, you have 1028 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 2: to get a good job you have, and that doesn't 1029 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,879 Speaker 2: work for everybody, Like life happens, and also that life 1030 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 2: is not the life that everyone wants. So I think 1031 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,439 Speaker 2: if someone would have been like, it's okay if you're 1032 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,760 Speaker 2: not top of the class, it's okay if you don't 1033 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 2: go to UNI, that would have been a really helpful 1034 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 2: thing for me to know as well. 1035 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: Hmmm, I'll trust the process. I love that also totally true, 1036 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: Like it's there is such a different path than the 1037 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: jobs that we might be working in like twenty years 1038 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: probably don't exist. Yet what you and I are doing 1039 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: did not exist twenty years ago. Like maybe what I'm doing, 1040 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: like technically podcast did exist, but not to this level. 1041 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: Like the world is evolving, and I think that's so important. 1042 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: Something I always think is like I'm most grateful for 1043 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: the things that I wanted and didn't get, Like I'm 1044 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,399 Speaker 1: so grateful for the things that I like begged for 1045 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: that I thought were going to make me happy, like 1046 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: that internship that like, you know, university entry that boyfriend 1047 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: and I didn't get them, And at the time, I 1048 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 1: was like, I'm so miserable that this is the end 1049 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,359 Speaker 1: of my life and everything I know. I hate saying 1050 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason, because I don't think it does. 1051 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: But there are some things that happen for you, not 1052 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: to you. I think that's like, yeah, a beautiful way 1053 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: to end things. So I want to say thank you 1054 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: so much for coming on, thank you for being one 1055 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 1: of our guests for this like wonderful December holiday series. 1056 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: It's just like such a beautiful perspective, one that I 1057 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,319 Speaker 1: think more people need to hear. And I'm so so 1058 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: thankful that you were able to make time to talk 1059 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: to us. 1060 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been 1061 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,320 Speaker 2: so nice to have a very nice, wholesome chat to 1062 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 2: start the day for me. 1063 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and to end the day for me. Look at that. 1064 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: It's like a beautiful bookmark for our days. I'm gonna 1065 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: put all of Ellie's links in the description here. Please 1066 00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 1: go and buy her book if you if you resonated 1067 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: with any of this, if you have a friend, a 1068 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,120 Speaker 1: family member who this sounds like them, buy it for them. 1069 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,600 Speaker 1: It's Christmas time, why the fuck not? You know, Share 1070 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: the joy around, share the information around, and as always, 1071 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave 1072 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,839 Speaker 1: a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're 1073 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: listening right now, Share it with a friend if you 1074 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: think they'd like it, and if you have any further 1075 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,280 Speaker 1: questions comments. If you have an opinion on this episode 1076 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: or an episode suggestion, please feel free to follow us 1077 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: at that Psychology podcast and we'll see you again later 1078 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:31,479 Speaker 1: this week.