Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to book f Daily with
Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the home Bunker.
Speaker 1: You know, folks, over the last couple of years, since
Speaker 1: the beginning of COVID until now the return to work,
Speaker 1: there have been so many conversations and so many headlines
Speaker 1: that are looking at how we work and what kinds
Speaker 1: of conditions we've allowed ourselves to tolerate, because that's just
Speaker 1: quote unquote the way things are. And from the great
Speaker 1: resignation to the condemnation that comes at Generation Z for
Speaker 1: being quote unquote lazy they don't want to work hard.
Speaker 1: I've recognized something which is that every generation has its
Speaker 1: fight when it comes to how we work. Prior generations
Speaker 1: believe that you just keep your head down, you take
Speaker 1: the abuse, and that's how you ascend the corporate ladder.
Speaker 1: What I recognize is that younger people have seen their
Speaker 1: parents and their grandparents be treated in a certain type
Speaker 1: of way. They've grown up with a lot of information
Speaker 1: and are just like, why would I work for this person?
Speaker 1: Why would I work for this company? Why would I
Speaker 1: work for this place that demeans me, that makes me
Speaker 1: feel small, where I feel like I'm living to work right,
Speaker 1: and you know, as somebody who has had the great
Speaker 1: fortune over the last few years to work for myself,
Speaker 1: and it is not without its struggles. It's not without
Speaker 1: its headaches alike. For instance, you know, we have the
Speaker 1: market place here in New York that allows me to
Speaker 1: get health care, but the healthcare is pretty shitty, right,
Speaker 1: and that if I were employed by an organization or
Speaker 1: a company, then I would have great health care, depending
Speaker 1: on the organization or the company that I was working with.
Speaker 1: But it's sure as s buck would be better than
Speaker 1: what I'm paying for out of pocket. But there is
Speaker 1: a level of autonomy. There is a level of ease
Speaker 1: in which I am able to work these days that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case four five years ago. So for me,
Speaker 1: I have made certain trade offs in being an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: in being independent. While I watch some of my friends
Speaker 1: make tons of money because they are in corporate jobs,
Speaker 1: but some of them are really miserable. And I think
Speaker 1: that what we learned during our time at the height
Speaker 1: of COVID would which is our time is not promised, right,
Speaker 1: like life can literally go in the blink of an eye,
Speaker 1: And so how do we really want to be spending
Speaker 1: our time, and if we're supposed to be in these
Speaker 1: jobs eight to ten hours a day, shouldn't there be
Speaker 1: some joy? Shouldn't there be some humanity that is centered
Speaker 1: in them. And I'm not saying that work needs to
Speaker 1: be like one of your hobbies, but it shouldn't absolutely
Speaker 1: should not be a place that causes emotional and physical diuress.
Speaker 1: And so the conversation that I have today bringing back
Speaker 1: our friend Kim Kelly, the author of Fight Like Hell,
Speaker 1: The Untold Story of American Labor, to talk about the
Speaker 1: strikes that are ongoing, the Hollywood strikes with the writers
Speaker 1: and the actors, the UPS strike that was just diverted
Speaker 1: because the unions and the company came to an agreement
Speaker 1: that would provide UPS workers raises and air conditioning in
Speaker 1: their fucking trucks. Right, because you know, think about the
Speaker 1: UPS delivery person who is working in say Oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Texas, Arizona, Florida, any of these places California
Speaker 1: that have seen extreme heat, and they're in an unair
Speaker 1: conditioned car for eight to ten hours a day. Right. So,
Speaker 1: when we look at the way that unions are having
Speaker 1: a moment again to try and create conditions that are
Speaker 1: livable right for workers. And we think about the last
Speaker 1: three years and a lot of places having gone to
Speaker 1: hybrid work right, having downsized their commercial real offices and
Speaker 1: have allowed workers to work partly at home because guess what.
Speaker 1: The great resignation came because people were just like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't really have to do this job in an
Speaker 1: office five days a week, away from my family, away
Speaker 1: from friends, like locked in this cubicle, and not able
Speaker 1: to actually live my life, like go for a walk,
Speaker 1: run an errand make some food in the middle of
Speaker 1: my day. Now we know that just being fully remote
Speaker 1: doesn't work for a lot of people. It works for
Speaker 1: me because I feel like I talk to people all
Speaker 1: day long, every single day, so I don't actually need
Speaker 1: to be in physical contact. The conversations that I have
Speaker 1: every day all day are enriching enough. But that's me right.
Speaker 1: And so the conversation that I have today with Kim
Speaker 1: Kelly is talking about work, talking about Generation Z and
Speaker 1: whether or not we are in the midst of a
Speaker 1: true movement, a true dynamic shift, or if this is
Speaker 1: just another fleeting moment. That conversation with Kim Kelly is
Speaker 1: coming up next, Folks, I am so excited to welcome
Speaker 1: back to woke af Kim Kelly, who is just an
Speaker 1: all around badass when it comes to understanding American labor workers' rights,
Speaker 1: is the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History
Speaker 1: of American Labor and as a freelance journalist. Kim, It's
Speaker 1: like this summer has been this summer in a lot
Speaker 1: of way of strikes or potential strikes. In a lot
Speaker 1: of ways. We have seen, you know, from three years ago,
Speaker 1: how COVID began, the initial shift, and how people work,
Speaker 1: how they see themselves as workers, how they see themselves
Speaker 1: appreciated or not as workers. And then now we are
Speaker 1: looking at a historic strike that is happening in Hollywood
Speaker 1: where writers and actors for the first time, I think
Speaker 1: in forty years, have linked arms to demand better from
Speaker 1: the studios and the networks. You had a ups strike
Speaker 1: that was diverted. I think there is still a vote
Speaker 1: that is happening in that space, but there was an
Speaker 1: agreement that was reached and that was going to be
Speaker 1: devastating to the country in terms of deliveries. So I
Speaker 1: just want to open up with what is your feeling,
Speaker 1: what is the vibe that is happening right now in
Speaker 1: the American workforce.
Speaker 2: People are fed up. Yeah, I think we're It's funny
Speaker 2: because I'm certainly not an economist, so I would not
Speaker 2: even venture to try and understand all of that. But
Speaker 2: you keep seeing so many stats and like very liberal
Speaker 2: blogs about how the economy is doing great. We're doing great, everyone,
Speaker 2: All the numbers are good, but regular people working with
Speaker 2: us people aren't feeling that. You know, we're still feeling
Speaker 2: the pinch. Groceries are still expensive, Rents too damn high.
Speaker 2: Like as much as you know, the government numbers might
Speaker 2: look nicer to some people than they did a year
Speaker 2: or two ago, that's not filtering down to regular human beings.
Speaker 2: And I think so much of what's driving this wave
Speaker 2: of strikes that we're seeing that it's it's too expensive
Speaker 2: to be alive in this country right now. Too much money,
Speaker 2: too much capital, too many resources that have filtered out
Speaker 2: to the people at the top, the you know, CEOs
Speaker 2: and corporations and rich politicians. And I'm sure like half
Speaker 2: of it went to Elon Musk while I was just
Speaker 2: talking right now, like there's just this gaping inequality it's
Speaker 2: impossible to ignore at this point and like you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 2: early in the pandemic, there was I think a very
Speaker 2: real shift in the way that people saw the value
Speaker 2: of their lives and their labor. And we had the
Speaker 2: essential worker discourse. We had the Great resignation as it
Speaker 2: was called, when people were like, oh, I can maybe
Speaker 2: get a better job all of a sudden because the
Speaker 2: government actually helped out for like five minutes. You know,
Speaker 2: I think this shift is still very much in play.
Speaker 2: I think there's not really any putting that lightning back
Speaker 2: in a bottle. I think that the way workers are
Speaker 2: seeing things now, especially after seeing all of the gains
Speaker 2: that have been made and the big contracts that are
Speaker 2: being secured, the big organizing efforts were seeing you know,
Speaker 2: all eyes around the team stairs for a while. I
Speaker 2: feel like that store was covered very closely, and the
Speaker 2: rhetoric that we heard from their leadership and from rack
Speaker 2: and file workers about you know, nothing gets done without
Speaker 2: us need to win a historic contract. We need so
Speaker 2: much better, We need basic health considerations like air conditioning.
Speaker 2: I think just putting that into the public consciousness as
Speaker 2: much as it was that helped too. And you know,
Speaker 2: we're at this moment where a lot of people are
Speaker 2: on strike. A lot of very visible workers are on strike.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the Hollywood on strike situation, that is like
Speaker 2: that is a big deal, and not just because it's
Speaker 2: you know, my union's one of the unions involved. I
Speaker 2: think one thing that is really kind of tipping the
Speaker 2: scale is that so many of these big strike actions
Speaker 2: we're seeing are hyper visible, like Hollywood one that's getting
Speaker 2: tons of attention, as it should, and people are paying
Speaker 2: attention to you know, these the funny protest signs, or
Speaker 2: the celebrities doing this, or the studio bosses saying incredibly
Speaker 2: evil stuff in a very public way, Like that's a big,
Speaker 2: easy one to pay attention to. Meanwhile, you have Starbucks
Speaker 2: workers in multiple cities off on a bus tour and
Speaker 2: launching strike actions all the time. It's all very public
Speaker 2: and immediate. So I think folks that maybe necessarily wouldn't
Speaker 2: be reading labor stories or looking out for strike news,
Speaker 2: you kind of can't avoid it. And I think that's
Speaker 2: having an impact on people's you know, just ability to
Speaker 2: imagine what is possible for themselves, Like if all these
Speaker 2: people are out on strike and they're not making that
Speaker 2: much money and they're not you know that privileged. Sure
Speaker 2: in the in the Writer's Guild and the Screen Actors Guild,
Speaker 2: some of them are doing fine, but even they're the minority,
Speaker 2: like most people are struggling. And I just think that
Speaker 2: hammered home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say about the writers.
Speaker 1: That was the thing that I learned through the strike.
Speaker 1: That the average writer is making like sixty nine thousand
Speaker 1: dollars a year, right, Like we only as consumers really
Speaker 1: only know the big names, right, but then folks who
Speaker 1: are just like honestly, when you think about your you know,
Speaker 1: the movies that you like or the shows that you like,
Speaker 1: do you really know who is writing those?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Do you remember those names? And then to think that
Speaker 1: they're making a far cry, like we see Hollywood as
Speaker 1: this glitz and glamour and red carpets, and it's an
Speaker 1: entire engine of people that are literally being grind so
Speaker 1: that you can see the glitz and glamour, right that
Speaker 1: is sprinkled around, like those are people hops like, you know,
Speaker 1: inability to like to be homeowners, their inability to like
Speaker 1: really provide for themselves and their family in a stable way.
Speaker 1: And I think that this strike in particular has really
Speaker 1: changed how people see this industry, you know, as a whole.
Speaker 1: And I guess on that on that note, you're talking
Speaker 1: about how public things have been, and that in this
Speaker 1: moment people are just like set up. What is it
Speaker 1: about this moment in particular? Do you think that are
Speaker 1: having people set up?
Speaker 2: Well? Everything? Like I mentioned before, I think it's just
Speaker 2: too expensive to live. Like things are harder than they
Speaker 2: should be, you know, like we see companies every day
Speaker 2: announcing record profits or so and so buying another yacht
Speaker 2: or so and so making another dirty deal with some CEO.
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, people you know, can't afford childcare, can't afford groceries,
Speaker 2: can't afford rent, you know, with the writers' strike. Most
Speaker 2: of our members live in LA or New York, you know,
Speaker 2: famously cheap places to live. I mean, it's I think
Speaker 2: it really just comes down to that very basic feeling
Speaker 2: of this is bullshit, Like things that we're told we're
Speaker 2: living in this age of great prosperity, great economic you know, solvency,
Speaker 2: things are going great. But why am I not seeing that?
Speaker 2: Why is my neighbor not seeing that? Why is my
Speaker 2: mother not seeing that? It just seems like there's a
Speaker 2: great disconnect between what we're being told to celebrate about,
Speaker 2: you know, the state of the Union, and what people
Speaker 2: are actually feeling. Like, Yeah, Mazrell is still like seven
Speaker 2: bucks of ball Let the act me in South Philly,
Speaker 2: and that impacts me. You know what I'm doing better
Speaker 2: than some people are. It's I think just the rampant
Speaker 2: inequality in this country has gotten to such a brutal
Speaker 2: point that even folks who do work and have solid
Speaker 2: jobs are feeling the pinsion a way there's impossible to ignore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that to your I mean, you're totally
Speaker 1: right in so many ways, and I want to get
Speaker 1: your thoughts on. I mean, it's like listening to some
Speaker 1: of these studio executives who spoke like in in interviews
Speaker 1: at the Billionaire's Camp, right Bobe Augur Bob Eiger from
Speaker 1: Disney interviewed at the Billionaire's Camp and saying that the
Speaker 1: desires of the unions are unrealistic, that what it is
Speaker 1: that they what it is that they are asking for,
Speaker 1: is unrealistic. This is a man I just want to
Speaker 1: say again, he makes seventy five thousand dollars a day.
Speaker 1: He just had an extension on his contract with CBS
Speaker 1: and Disney for another I think two or three years, right,
Speaker 1: because he came in to quote unquote save the Day.
Speaker 1: He had signed that contract in two for two or
Speaker 1: three years at twenty six million dollars, right, and so
Speaker 1: he's it's extended, So he's getting another twenty six or
Speaker 1: twenty you know whatever million dollars. So we're talking about
Speaker 1: the average writer making sixty nine thousand dollars a year
Speaker 1: and this CEO who makes seventy five thousand dollars a
Speaker 1: day telling folks that the requests that they have are unrealistic.
Speaker 1: What do you say to that.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of ways to lose your house? Oh man,
Speaker 2: what in this calculation? Well, I think it's not. Even
Speaker 2: when people like that say things like that, they don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't think they think it through in a way like, oh,
Speaker 2: this might make people mad at me, this might inflame
Speaker 2: the strikers. I think that they actually believe these things.
Speaker 2: They believe they are entitled to all of that. Well,
Speaker 2: they believe they're indispensable. They're the ones doing all the
Speaker 2: hard work. What are all these little people complaining about?
Speaker 2: I think they just maybe you just lose your humanity
Speaker 2: once you become that rich. I cannot think of any
Speaker 2: other way that you could get like that and say
Speaker 2: something like that, or to say like we would rather
Speaker 2: starve them out than acquiesce to their incredibly reasonable demands
Speaker 2: and lose a couple million here and there of our profit,
Speaker 2: Like who do you think is doing all the work?
Speaker 2: You would not have those millions, You would not have
Speaker 2: that nice house, you would not have that gold plated
Speaker 2: you know, healthcare plan without the people on the picket
Speaker 2: lines right now who are losing their healthcare, Like it
Speaker 2: is just I mean, I don't understand what is wrong
Speaker 2: with these people. Fundamentally. It's the same mentality that we
Speaker 2: heard from coal bosses in the Deep South who are
Speaker 2: trying to starve out coal miners last year in Brooklyn, Alabama.
Speaker 2: It's just this, it's just so ugly and it's so disconnected,
Speaker 2: like you will like this great Man syndrome perhaps like
Speaker 2: oh well, nothing known, this would happen without me. You
Speaker 2: are the only person in this scenario who could be
Speaker 2: automated out of existence with AI in a reasonable way.
Speaker 2: Like you don't do anything. You make decisions about other
Speaker 2: people's lives, and for this you're paid, Like the GDP
Speaker 2: of a small nation. I think that is part of
Speaker 2: what is fueling so much of the righteous anger. It's like,
Speaker 2: not only are the studios and their heads refusing to
Speaker 2: bargain in really in genuine good faith, they're refusing to
Speaker 2: listen their workers' concerns, They're refusing to acknowledge their workers.
Speaker 2: They're acting as though these workers who create all the
Speaker 2: value are a bunch of whiny little brats.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Like how dare you?
Speaker 2: You mess? How dare you? And it's like, bro, who
Speaker 2: you are nothing without them? And it's unfortunately it took
Speaker 2: a historic strike to get them to really kind of
Speaker 2: realize like, oh boy, we kind of need people to
Speaker 2: make our shit.
Speaker 1: You mentioned AI, and I want to talk about that
Speaker 1: for a moment too, because I mean I have done
Speaker 1: several interviews around AI, and you know, us building the
Speaker 1: tools for our own destruction is essentially like where we're headed.
Speaker 1: And I know that people are like, oh, well, it's great,
Speaker 1: like it helps me do this and it helps me
Speaker 1: do that. And I'm like, do you never read sci fi?
Speaker 1: Like have you never seen like one movie? Have you
Speaker 1: not listened to the creators of AI that have said
Speaker 1: that AI is incredibly dangerous in the world. Like are
Speaker 1: we not paying attention? But we are a nation of
Speaker 1: people who don't pay attention. But one of the things
Speaker 1: that was said, and again just sticking on Hollywood for
Speaker 1: a moment, was Oh, we can get AI to do
Speaker 1: this will come in, We'll you know, to photograph your face.
Speaker 1: We'll be able to use it into perpetuity. We'll be
Speaker 1: able to have, you know, to program said AI to
Speaker 1: create you know, the next friends or the next you know,
Speaker 1: living single, or the next like whatever, and you know,
Speaker 1: and you'll be out of a job. So you should
Speaker 1: be thankful and kissing our feet that you have one
Speaker 1: right now, because we see your replacement in the next
Speaker 1: five to ten years. So what do you make of
Speaker 1: how the weaponization of technology to go against the actual
Speaker 1: human creative, content creator and builder.
Speaker 2: It's so you think humanity would learn from their past mistakes.
Speaker 2: I think my friend Brian Merchant just wrote a really
Speaker 2: brilliant new book called Blood and Machine, all about the
Speaker 2: Ludite uprisings in England and like it was like the
Speaker 2: seventeenth or eighteenth century way back, and it was so
Speaker 2: similar to what's happening right now in broad strokes because
Speaker 2: there was a class of talented workmen like artisans, weavers
Speaker 2: and spinners, people that created the thread and the fabric
Speaker 2: that became closed that you know, they had a whole
Speaker 2: cottage industry. People had good jobs, they had a whole
Speaker 2: cultural tradition of doing these jobs. And then machines came
Speaker 2: in and the factory owners started bringing these machines and
Speaker 2: cutting their word and taking away these people's jobs. And
Speaker 2: the way that those workers responded was by smashing the
Speaker 2: machines and launching an entire movement to destroy the machines
Speaker 2: that were destroying their way of life. And it took
Speaker 2: the entire force of the British government to put that
Speaker 2: rebellion down. And I'm not saying we need to be
Speaker 2: going into where you know, tech offices and smashing their algorithms,
Speaker 2: but I'm not not saying it. You know, just because
Speaker 2: we can does not.
Speaker 1: Mean we should should.
Speaker 2: Come on, Yeah, I like, you don't even need to
Speaker 2: be a like a voracious sci fi reader to know,
Speaker 2: you know, you can't always trust robots. That's that's the
Speaker 2: whole thing. Like we that's one thing we could generally
Speaker 2: agree on as a deeply divided people, you can't always
Speaker 2: trust the robots. So why would you hand over your
Speaker 2: entire industry, your entire livelihood, your entire just way of
Speaker 2: being to like a human creation because.
Speaker 1: They don't because they don't require healthcare, because they don't
Speaker 1: require you don't have to have HR, you don't have
Speaker 1: to you don't have to feed a robot, you don't
Speaker 1: have to abide by hours, right. Like, But it's just
Speaker 1: like when I think about this, and I mean, you
Speaker 1: can look at any any goddamn movie, write any read
Speaker 1: any any novel. It's like, when you automate write every
Speaker 1: single thing and you put people out of work, who
Speaker 1: the fuck do you think is buying those goods with
Speaker 1: the lack of resources that they have? Right, So you
Speaker 1: are mass producing all of this ship and you've put
Speaker 1: millions of people out of work. Who is buying it?
Speaker 2: Right? It's like the the there's so many moves to automate.
Speaker 2: We've seen already in factories throughout the Midwest. We see
Speaker 2: the trucking industry dealing with this as a threat. There
Speaker 2: are so many jobs that have disappeared because of automation,
Speaker 2: because of technology. I saw some some jackets on Twitter saying,
Speaker 2: you know, we lost the job of telephone operator because
Speaker 2: now we automate it, And isn't that a good thing?
Speaker 2: And I don't know, maybe, but maybe not. Like, just
Speaker 2: because we have the technological ability to change things, we
Speaker 2: need to make sure that we're focusing on the human
Speaker 2: aspect first, because otherwise who is it for? And like
Speaker 2: you said, who's going to be able to buy all
Speaker 2: of this cheaply produced content, these cheaply produced goods, if
Speaker 2: no one has a job anymore, it's just very it
Speaker 2: feels very shortsighted, even in the most cynical capitalistic way.
Speaker 2: Like if you want to have a market to exploit,
Speaker 2: if you want a product to sell to people, if
Speaker 2: you want there to be consumers for you to make
Speaker 2: money off of, they need to have money and they're
Speaker 2: not going to have any money if they don't have
Speaker 2: a job, because that's the way things are set up.
Speaker 2: By embracing AI and automation to the extent that they
Speaker 2: seem to be hinting at, they're just kind of automating
Speaker 2: themselves out of a market too. So who even wins
Speaker 2: besides the robots?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think, Kim? Like where do we
Speaker 1: where do you see workers? Across industries because we're seeing
Speaker 1: shortages everywhere, shortages and teaching right, Well, we know that
Speaker 1: we don't pay teachers anything, and now we expect them
Speaker 1: to have combat specialty right and be able to do
Speaker 1: a tourniquit on a kid that was shot, and you know,
Speaker 1: to turn their whiteboard into a bulletproof safe room. Like
Speaker 1: we're expecting all of these things, but not giving and
Speaker 1: giving teachers any more money. So there's a massive shortage
Speaker 1: that we're seeing across the country. It's the same way
Speaker 1: that COVID tapped out the medical and the health industry
Speaker 1: with people being like, yeah, I don't actually want to
Speaker 1: do this anymore. Right, it is a thankless in many ways,
Speaker 1: had turned into a thankless kind of position and job
Speaker 1: and so and recognizing that this pandemic that we you've
Speaker 1: had is probably not going to be the last one.
Speaker 1: Given us how we've seemed to learn nothing right over
Speaker 1: the last three years. And so when you see these
Speaker 1: different pockets, right, whether it's help, whether it's education, whether
Speaker 1: it's entertainment, whether it is you know, truck drivers and
Speaker 1: factory workers and all of these similar things, like where
Speaker 1: what do you think can good? I should say, can
Speaker 1: come from this moment.
Speaker 2: In terms of Okay, I love, I love to look
Speaker 2: on the bright side, but that one took me a second.
Speaker 2: But I think that right, because shit's grim. But I
Speaker 2: think the most valuable lesson that we're learning, or that
Speaker 2: people are learning about themselves, is that they deserve better,
Speaker 2: you know, the that they should not have to put
Speaker 2: up with this ship, that they should not be effected to,
Speaker 2: you know, pull a full Victorian orphan and say please,
Speaker 2: or may have some more for like their five dollars
Speaker 2: paycheck after some parents spit in their face for teaching history,
Speaker 2: you know, like, I think it goes back to people
Speaker 2: being fed up because they they know that they're worth
Speaker 2: more than this and they deserve better. And I think
Speaker 2: that is something that is fueling this this rise in
Speaker 2: organizing and striking and you know, worker organizing outside of
Speaker 2: the union structure, because people realize that I shouldn't be
Speaker 2: expected to live like this. I am valuable, my skills
Speaker 2: are valuable, my personhood is valuable, and I'm not being
Speaker 2: treated as though those things are true. So what can
Speaker 2: I do about that? And for a lot of people,
Speaker 2: it seems like that answer has been Okay, let me
Speaker 2: talk to my coworkers, let me talk to my neighbors,
Speaker 2: let me talk to some folks on my block, and
Speaker 2: try and organize and change that, because I think so
Speaker 2: many people have just been beaten down and isolated and
Speaker 2: felt as though they got mad. And one of the
Speaker 2: only existing mechanisms we have to combat that is organizing
Speaker 2: and building collective power and taking care of our neighbors
Speaker 2: and our coworkers, because we know nobody else is they
Speaker 2: just want to automate us out of existence and make
Speaker 2: it as if we never were here in the first place. Oh,
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's what gives me hope that people
Speaker 2: are realizing just how much they're worth and how much
Speaker 2: better they deserve.
Speaker 1: You know, My last question for you is about Generation Z, right,
Speaker 1: the generation that is just leaving college, leaving vocational schools
Speaker 1: and entering into the workforce. And there's a lot that's
Speaker 1: being said about Gen Z. Oh they don't want to work.
Speaker 1: Oh they're lazy. Oh they're entitled. Oh they're this, that
Speaker 1: and the other thing. And I realize that now, given
Speaker 1: the age that I am, that happens to pretty much
Speaker 1: every fucking generation.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The older generation has some hot shit to say about
Speaker 1: their yeah, about about their about their entry and all
Speaker 1: forgotten and all and all the ship. And I wonder,
Speaker 1: you know, because they are coming in with so much
Speaker 1: access to information, with so much understanding of technology, with
Speaker 1: the world where they're going to be the generation that
Speaker 1: is less better off than their parents and their grandparents.
Speaker 1: What do you make of their understanding of labor and
Speaker 1: capitalism and how that is going to shift culture in
Speaker 1: in in in the workforce.
Speaker 2: I think they're right. I don't want to work either.
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to work. I mean, I'm a mentally lucky
Speaker 2: and privileged that I enjoy the work that I do.
Speaker 2: But there's still some downsides, you know, and seeing that
Speaker 2: this younger generation got hers to not be the younger
Speaker 2: generation anymore. But but I'm so proud of them and
Speaker 2: inspired by them and fascinated by them because it seems
Speaker 2: like the increased access to information and fluidity with digital
Speaker 2: systems and technology, that's that's an asset, right, Like having
Speaker 2: a worker come into your place of employment who is
Speaker 2: not going to allow themselves to be trampled on or
Speaker 2: her ass who's going to advocate for their rights and
Speaker 2: their coworkers' rights, who can open the PDF for you
Speaker 2: and are willing to learn like that seems like an
Speaker 2: ideal worker for me. We are far past this idea
Speaker 2: of you know, the you work in one place your
Speaker 2: entire life and you retire with a gold watch and
Speaker 2: a pension. Who that's the fairy tale. At this point,
Speaker 2: those jobs aren't there, and if they are, they're not
Speaker 2: there for the vast majority of us. Therefore, a guy's
Speaker 2: name Jeff who went to Harvard, and I don't really
Speaker 2: care what happens to those guys. The thing that I
Speaker 2: really love about gen Z too, that I see online,
Speaker 2: which is really where I interact with them because I
Speaker 2: fear them, you know, is just how loudly and unequivocally
Speaker 2: they've embraced labor and organizing really, the way that they've
Speaker 2: honed in on how intersectional so much this organizing needs
Speaker 2: to be. You know, the same kids, well not kids,
Speaker 2: the same young people who are organizing their workplaces are
Speaker 2: also marching for racial justice. They're also calling out the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court for destroying our lives constantly, are also standing
Speaker 2: out for their queer and trance coworkers whenever possible, Like
Speaker 2: it's all so connected. That's something that I tried to
Speaker 2: convey in my book. That's something that I think really
Speaker 2: fuels this current moment in labor, at least the good parts,
Speaker 2: the parts that are moving, you know. Just realizing how
Speaker 2: connected we all are. That's something that is not unique
Speaker 2: to the younger generation, but it seems much more common
Speaker 2: among them. Realizing that, you know, abortion is a worker's issue,
Speaker 2: transrid to a worker's issue. You know, it's all everything's
Speaker 2: a worker's issue. The climate crisis is definitely a worker's issue.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: I think it takes a little bit more efforts sometimes
Speaker 2: to make those connections when you're a little more set
Speaker 2: in your ways, or you've been doing things for a
Speaker 2: long time, or you just don't have as many younger
Speaker 2: friends who are chronically online. And that's okay, that's why
Speaker 2: we talk to each other and we organize between generations.
Speaker 2: But gen Z, they're fucking red man. Like, I'm excited
Speaker 2: to see what they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I feel the same way. I'm very
Speaker 1: excited to see what they do. I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: they have the best of every generation, like in terms
Speaker 1: of their intellectual capacity, their emotional capacity, their empathy, and
Speaker 1: they're really understanding of interlocking systems, and so what they
Speaker 1: choose to do with the information that is so readily
Speaker 1: at their fingertips, I think will be something, you know,
Speaker 1: a site to see. And they've already begun to shift
Speaker 1: culture in terms of yeah, I don't want to work
Speaker 1: like this, right, Like I don't want to work in
Speaker 1: this oppressive you know, fashion and you know, and we
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to, right, And so just because you did
Speaker 1: it in a generation before me, this is the right
Speaker 1: of passage. Shouldn't be work or abuse. And that's what
Speaker 1: a lot of us, I think, have experienced throughout our time.
Speaker 1: If we really think back, and we're just like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: I was aggressively taken advantage of when I was twenty
Speaker 1: five years old, right, and didn't know anything about you know,
Speaker 1: about the organization or the company that I was in. Right,
Speaker 1: And so given that, it's like, well I went through it,
Speaker 1: you should go through it, and it should be like, no,
Speaker 1: we should actually want better.
Speaker 2: Yeah. By the same argument, we should all be working
Speaker 2: in unventilated garment factories with locked doors for fourteen hours
Speaker 2: a day. Not all of us have to do that anymore.
Speaker 1: And unless you live in Alabama because.
Speaker 2: Or La or yeah, yes, yeah, the thing everything old
Speaker 2: is new again, right, But at least just.
Speaker 1: Like child labor, which I'll have you back on to
Speaker 1: talk about that.
Speaker 2: God which never went away either. You know, sometimes it's
Speaker 2: hard to hold onto my my pozi vibes. But I
Speaker 2: do think that the younger generation and the one below them,
Speaker 2: because what Gen Alpha, Yep, they're like they're like people now,
Speaker 2: like they're.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll be they're they're they're roughly like they're ten
Speaker 1: years I think away from the workforce, do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like in a in a substantial way,
Speaker 1: like Gen Alpha are tweens right now, right, So in
Speaker 1: ten years, right, they'll be twenty one.
Speaker 2: And that is going to be a whole different world,
Speaker 2: hopefully in a good way, probably in a bad way,
Speaker 2: but at least they know that their parents and I
Speaker 2: guess their grandparents will have put some work in to
Speaker 2: try and make it better.
Speaker 1: And shallah, we'll see Kim Kelly. It is always such
Speaker 1: a pleasure when I get to have you on woke app.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you so very much. Please tell the people
Speaker 1: where they can follow you.
Speaker 2: I am regrettably still on Twitter. I groomed Kim. I
Speaker 2: have a Patreon I have. My book is coming out
Speaker 2: in paperback at the end of the month. On August
Speaker 2: twenty ninth, I'm doing a couple book events in New
Speaker 2: York and Philly, then on the West Coast and Yeah, I,
Speaker 2: like many members of my generation, I am aggressively online.
Speaker 2: So give me Wesle. You'll find me awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, appreciate you, Oh.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke
Speaker 1: af as always power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fun