WEBVTT - Gaping Inequality 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to book f Daily with 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.400 Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the home Bunker. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.439 You know, folks, over the last couple of years, since 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.680 the beginning of COVID until now the return to work, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.680 there have been so many conversations and so many headlines 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:38.440 that are looking at how we work and what kinds 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:44.080 of conditions we've allowed ourselves to tolerate, because that's just 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.800 quote unquote the way things are. And from the great 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:54.200 resignation to the condemnation that comes at Generation Z for 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.640 being quote unquote lazy they don't want to work hard. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:03.840 I've recognized something which is that every generation has its 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:08.600 fight when it comes to how we work. Prior generations 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.640 believe that you just keep your head down, you take 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.400 the abuse, and that's how you ascend the corporate ladder. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.440 What I recognize is that younger people have seen their 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.560 parents and their grandparents be treated in a certain type 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.400 of way. They've grown up with a lot of information 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.600 and are just like, why would I work for this person? 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.640 Why would I work for this company? Why would I 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.360 work for this place that demeans me, that makes me 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.680 feel small, where I feel like I'm living to work right, 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:47.280 and you know, as somebody who has had the great 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:52.200 fortune over the last few years to work for myself, 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.560 and it is not without its struggles. It's not without 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.560 its headaches alike. For instance, you know, we have the 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.480 market place here in New York that allows me to 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.559 get health care, but the healthcare is pretty shitty, right, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.760 and that if I were employed by an organization or 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.440 a company, then I would have great health care, depending 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.040 on the organization or the company that I was working with. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:16.760 But it's sure as s buck would be better than 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.080 what I'm paying for out of pocket. But there is 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:26.600 a level of autonomy. There is a level of ease 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:31.400 in which I am able to work these days that 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.440 wasn't the case four five years ago. So for me, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.359 I have made certain trade offs in being an entrepreneur, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:46.320 in being independent. While I watch some of my friends 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.200 make tons of money because they are in corporate jobs, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.919 but some of them are really miserable. And I think 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.440 that what we learned during our time at the height 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:03.919 of COVID would which is our time is not promised, right, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.160 like life can literally go in the blink of an eye, 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.440 And so how do we really want to be spending 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.720 our time, and if we're supposed to be in these 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.079 jobs eight to ten hours a day, shouldn't there be 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.959 some joy? Shouldn't there be some humanity that is centered 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.320 in them. And I'm not saying that work needs to 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.440 be like one of your hobbies, but it shouldn't absolutely 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.880 should not be a place that causes emotional and physical diuress. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.320 And so the conversation that I have today bringing back 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.160 our friend Kim Kelly, the author of Fight Like Hell, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:50.640 The Untold Story of American Labor, to talk about the 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.960 strikes that are ongoing, the Hollywood strikes with the writers 0:03:55.000 --> 0:04:00.880 and the actors, the UPS strike that was just diverted 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.600 because the unions and the company came to an agreement 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.520 that would provide UPS workers raises and air conditioning in 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:14.200 their fucking trucks. Right, because you know, think about the 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.320 UPS delivery person who is working in say Oh, I 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:25.360 don't know, Texas, Arizona, Florida, any of these places California 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.680 that have seen extreme heat, and they're in an unair 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:35.800 conditioned car for eight to ten hours a day. Right. So, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.240 when we look at the way that unions are having 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:45.320 a moment again to try and create conditions that are 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.400 livable right for workers. And we think about the last 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.240 three years and a lot of places having gone to 0:04:55.360 --> 0:05:01.680 hybrid work right, having downsized their commercial real offices and 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.839 have allowed workers to work partly at home because guess what. 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:11.040 The great resignation came because people were just like, Yeah, 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.520 I don't really have to do this job in an 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.840 office five days a week, away from my family, away 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:23.360 from friends, like locked in this cubicle, and not able 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.360 to actually live my life, like go for a walk, 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.360 run an errand make some food in the middle of 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.960 my day. Now we know that just being fully remote 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.680 doesn't work for a lot of people. It works for 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.840 me because I feel like I talk to people all 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.640 day long, every single day, so I don't actually need 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.200 to be in physical contact. The conversations that I have 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:51.360 every day all day are enriching enough. But that's me right. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.920 And so the conversation that I have today with Kim 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:59.240 Kelly is talking about work, talking about Generation Z and 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.280 whether or not we are in the midst of a 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:08.040 true movement, a true dynamic shift, or if this is 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.159 just another fleeting moment. That conversation with Kim Kelly is 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:20.360 coming up next, Folks, I am so excited to welcome 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:25.400 back to woke af Kim Kelly, who is just an 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:31.159 all around badass when it comes to understanding American labor workers' rights, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.640 is the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:40.719 of American Labor and as a freelance journalist. Kim, It's 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:46.560 like this summer has been this summer in a lot 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.240 of way of strikes or potential strikes. In a lot 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.919 of ways. We have seen, you know, from three years ago, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:07:00.400 how COVID began, the initial shift, and how people work, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.880 how they see themselves as workers, how they see themselves 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:09.600 appreciated or not as workers. And then now we are 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:14.080 looking at a historic strike that is happening in Hollywood 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.840 where writers and actors for the first time, I think 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:22.160 in forty years, have linked arms to demand better from 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.320 the studios and the networks. You had a ups strike 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.680 that was diverted. I think there is still a vote 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.400 that is happening in that space, but there was an 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.760 agreement that was reached and that was going to be 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:40.280 devastating to the country in terms of deliveries. So I 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.120 just want to open up with what is your feeling, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:48.400 what is the vibe that is happening right now in 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.800 the American workforce. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.080 People are fed up. Yeah, I think we're It's funny 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.320 because I'm certainly not an economist, so I would not 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.480 even venture to try and understand all of that. But 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.520 you keep seeing so many stats and like very liberal 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.200 blogs about how the economy is doing great. We're doing great, everyone, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.240 All the numbers are good, but regular people working with 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.360 us people aren't feeling that. You know, we're still feeling 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.440 the pinch. Groceries are still expensive, Rents too damn high. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.800 Like as much as you know, the government numbers might 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.000 look nicer to some people than they did a year 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.640 or two ago, that's not filtering down to regular human beings. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:35.560 And I think so much of what's driving this wave 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.079 of strikes that we're seeing that it's it's too expensive 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.240 to be alive in this country right now. Too much money, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.320 too much capital, too many resources that have filtered out 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.239 to the people at the top, the you know, CEOs 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.800 and corporations and rich politicians. And I'm sure like half 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.800 of it went to Elon Musk while I was just 0:08:54.840 --> 0:09:01.120 talking right now, like there's just this gaping inequality it's 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.160 impossible to ignore at this point and like you mentioned earlier, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.160 early in the pandemic, there was I think a very 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.960 real shift in the way that people saw the value 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.480 of their lives and their labor. And we had the 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.960 essential worker discourse. We had the Great resignation as it 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.360 was called, when people were like, oh, I can maybe 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.959 get a better job all of a sudden because the 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.160 government actually helped out for like five minutes. You know, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.000 I think this shift is still very much in play. 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.080 I think there's not really any putting that lightning back 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.760 in a bottle. I think that the way workers are 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.880 seeing things now, especially after seeing all of the gains 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:41.920 that have been made and the big contracts that are 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.320 being secured, the big organizing efforts were seeing you know, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.640 all eyes around the team stairs for a while. I 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.000 feel like that store was covered very closely, and the 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.880 rhetoric that we heard from their leadership and from rack 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.280 and file workers about you know, nothing gets done without 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.920 us need to win a historic contract. We need so 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.559 much better, We need basic health considerations like air conditioning. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.560 I think just putting that into the public consciousness as 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.560 much as it was that helped too. And you know, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.880 we're at this moment where a lot of people are 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.160 on strike. A lot of very visible workers are on strike. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.000 You mentioned the Hollywood on strike situation, that is like 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.240 that is a big deal, and not just because it's 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.240 you know, my union's one of the unions involved. I 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:32.960 think one thing that is really kind of tipping the 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.720 scale is that so many of these big strike actions 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.800 we're seeing are hyper visible, like Hollywood one that's getting 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.360 tons of attention, as it should, and people are paying 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.360 attention to you know, these the funny protest signs, or 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.880 the celebrities doing this, or the studio bosses saying incredibly 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.120 evil stuff in a very public way, Like that's a big, 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.280 easy one to pay attention to. Meanwhile, you have Starbucks 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.880 workers in multiple cities off on a bus tour and 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.680 launching strike actions all the time. It's all very public 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.400 and immediate. So I think folks that maybe necessarily wouldn't 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.720 be reading labor stories or looking out for strike news, 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.120 you kind of can't avoid it. And I think that's 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.199 having an impact on people's you know, just ability to 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.800 imagine what is possible for themselves, Like if all these 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.280 people are out on strike and they're not making that 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.000 much money and they're not you know that privileged. Sure 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.800 in the in the Writer's Guild and the Screen Actors Guild, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:38.160 some of them are doing fine, but even they're the minority, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.439 like most people are struggling. And I just think that 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:42.760 hammered home. 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.960 Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say about the writers. 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.360 That was the thing that I learned through the strike. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.800 That the average writer is making like sixty nine thousand 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:59.720 dollars a year, right, Like we only as consumers really 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.360 only know the big names, right, but then folks who 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.320 are just like honestly, when you think about your you know, 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.840 the movies that you like or the shows that you like, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.319 do you really know who is writing those? 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:11.640 You know? 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.520 Do you remember those names? And then to think that 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.880 they're making a far cry, like we see Hollywood as 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.880 this glitz and glamour and red carpets, and it's an 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.000 entire engine of people that are literally being grind so 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.560 that you can see the glitz and glamour, right that 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.800 is sprinkled around, like those are people hops like, you know, 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.640 inability to like to be homeowners, their inability to like 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.079 really provide for themselves and their family in a stable way. 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.360 And I think that this strike in particular has really 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.800 changed how people see this industry, you know, as a whole. 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.400 And I guess on that on that note, you're talking 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.480 about how public things have been, and that in this 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.600 moment people are just like set up. What is it 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.360 about this moment in particular? Do you think that are 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.319 having people set up? 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.400 Well? Everything? Like I mentioned before, I think it's just 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.439 too expensive to live. Like things are harder than they 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.360 should be, you know, like we see companies every day 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.959 announcing record profits or so and so buying another yacht 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.400 or so and so making another dirty deal with some CEO. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:37.120 And meanwhile, people you know, can't afford childcare, can't afford groceries, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.520 can't afford rent, you know, with the writers' strike. Most 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.760 of our members live in LA or New York, you know, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:49.840 famously cheap places to live. I mean, it's I think 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.200 it really just comes down to that very basic feeling 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:57.240 of this is bullshit, Like things that we're told we're 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:02.079 living in this age of great prosperity, great economic you know, solvency, 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.320 things are going great. But why am I not seeing that? 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.360 Why is my neighbor not seeing that? Why is my 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.560 mother not seeing that? It just seems like there's a 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.760 great disconnect between what we're being told to celebrate about, 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.439 you know, the state of the Union, and what people 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.760 are actually feeling. Like, Yeah, Mazrell is still like seven 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.280 bucks of ball Let the act me in South Philly, 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.800 and that impacts me. You know what I'm doing better 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:30.840 than some people are. It's I think just the rampant 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.160 inequality in this country has gotten to such a brutal 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.480 point that even folks who do work and have solid 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.480 jobs are feeling the pinsion a way there's impossible to ignore. 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.360 Yeah, I think that to your I mean, you're totally 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.440 right in so many ways, and I want to get 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:51.160 your thoughts on. I mean, it's like listening to some 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:56.320 of these studio executives who spoke like in in interviews 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.920 at the Billionaire's Camp, right Bobe Augur Bob Eiger from 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:07.240 Disney interviewed at the Billionaire's Camp and saying that the 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.400 desires of the unions are unrealistic, that what it is 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.120 that they what it is that they are asking for, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.600 is unrealistic. This is a man I just want to 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.680 say again, he makes seventy five thousand dollars a day. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:29.800 He just had an extension on his contract with CBS 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.000 and Disney for another I think two or three years, right, 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.240 because he came in to quote unquote save the Day. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.240 He had signed that contract in two for two or 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.520 three years at twenty six million dollars, right, and so 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.280 he's it's extended, So he's getting another twenty six or 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.480 twenty you know whatever million dollars. So we're talking about 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:55.040 the average writer making sixty nine thousand dollars a year 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.520 and this CEO who makes seventy five thousand dollars a 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:07.080 day telling folks that the requests that they have are unrealistic. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:08.680 What do you say to that. 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:15.520 There's a lot of ways to lose your house? Oh man, 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.320 what in this calculation? Well, I think it's not. Even 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:23.200 when people like that say things like that, they don't think. 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.840 I don't think they think it through in a way like, oh, 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.280 this might make people mad at me, this might inflame 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.480 the strikers. I think that they actually believe these things. 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.680 They believe they are entitled to all of that. Well, 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.880 they believe they're indispensable. They're the ones doing all the 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.440 hard work. What are all these little people complaining about? 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.280 I think they just maybe you just lose your humanity 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.320 once you become that rich. I cannot think of any 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.560 other way that you could get like that and say 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.040 something like that, or to say like we would rather 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.560 starve them out than acquiesce to their incredibly reasonable demands 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:03.040 and lose a couple million here and there of our profit, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.200 Like who do you think is doing all the work? 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.199 You would not have those millions, You would not have 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.520 that nice house, you would not have that gold plated 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.000 you know, healthcare plan without the people on the picket 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.919 lines right now who are losing their healthcare, Like it 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:23.880 is just I mean, I don't understand what is wrong 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.199 with these people. Fundamentally. It's the same mentality that we 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.959 heard from coal bosses in the Deep South who are 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.280 trying to starve out coal miners last year in Brooklyn, Alabama. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.080 It's just this, it's just so ugly and it's so disconnected, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:43.560 like you will like this great Man syndrome perhaps like 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.199 oh well, nothing known, this would happen without me. You 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.679 are the only person in this scenario who could be 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.560 automated out of existence with AI in a reasonable way. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.560 Like you don't do anything. You make decisions about other 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.720 people's lives, and for this you're paid, Like the GDP 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.639 of a small nation. I think that is part of 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.480 what is fueling so much of the righteous anger. It's like, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:10.240 not only are the studios and their heads refusing to 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.800 bargain in really in genuine good faith, they're refusing to 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.640 listen their workers' concerns, They're refusing to acknowledge their workers. 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.879 They're acting as though these workers who create all the 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.840 value are a bunch of whiny little brats. 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.040 Yeah yeah, Like how dare you? 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:30.680 You mess? How dare you? And it's like, bro, who 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.840 you are nothing without them? And it's unfortunately it took 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:37.919 a historic strike to get them to really kind of 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.960 realize like, oh boy, we kind of need people to 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:41.600 make our shit. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.359 You mentioned AI, and I want to talk about that 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.400 for a moment too, because I mean I have done 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.720 several interviews around AI, and you know, us building the 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.879 tools for our own destruction is essentially like where we're headed. 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:02.480 And I know that people are like, oh, well, it's great, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:04.520 like it helps me do this and it helps me 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.960 do that. And I'm like, do you never read sci fi? 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.000 Like have you never seen like one movie? Have you 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.200 not listened to the creators of AI that have said 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.160 that AI is incredibly dangerous in the world. Like are 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.440 we not paying attention? But we are a nation of 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.719 people who don't pay attention. But one of the things 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.080 that was said, and again just sticking on Hollywood for 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.160 a moment, was Oh, we can get AI to do 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.040 this will come in, We'll you know, to photograph your face. 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.919 We'll be able to use it into perpetuity. We'll be 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.480 able to have, you know, to program said AI to 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.280 create you know, the next friends or the next you know, 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:46.160 living single, or the next like whatever, and you know, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.440 and you'll be out of a job. So you should 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.720 be thankful and kissing our feet that you have one 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.280 right now, because we see your replacement in the next 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.920 five to ten years. So what do you make of 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:04.840 how the weaponization of technology to go against the actual 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.320 human creative, content creator and builder. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:15.280 It's so you think humanity would learn from their past mistakes. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.120 I think my friend Brian Merchant just wrote a really 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.560 brilliant new book called Blood and Machine, all about the 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.679 Ludite uprisings in England and like it was like the 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.480 seventeenth or eighteenth century way back, and it was so 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.359 similar to what's happening right now in broad strokes because 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:40.040 there was a class of talented workmen like artisans, weavers 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.720 and spinners, people that created the thread and the fabric 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:45.880 that became closed that you know, they had a whole 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.960 cottage industry. People had good jobs, they had a whole 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.720 cultural tradition of doing these jobs. And then machines came 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.359 in and the factory owners started bringing these machines and 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.760 cutting their word and taking away these people's jobs. And 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.960 the way that those workers responded was by smashing the 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:11.520 machines and launching an entire movement to destroy the machines 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.240 that were destroying their way of life. And it took 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.560 the entire force of the British government to put that 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.680 rebellion down. And I'm not saying we need to be 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.480 going into where you know, tech offices and smashing their algorithms, 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.440 but I'm not not saying it. You know, just because 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:31.720 we can does not. 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:32.840 Mean we should should. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.119 Come on, Yeah, I like, you don't even need to 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.480 be a like a voracious sci fi reader to know, 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.280 you know, you can't always trust robots. That's that's the 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.119 whole thing. Like we that's one thing we could generally 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.960 agree on as a deeply divided people, you can't always 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.240 trust the robots. So why would you hand over your 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.359 entire industry, your entire livelihood, your entire just way of 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.760 being to like a human creation because. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.480 They don't because they don't require healthcare, because they don't 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.800 require you don't have to have HR, you don't have 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.880 to you don't have to feed a robot, you don't 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:13.560 have to abide by hours, right. Like, But it's just 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.560 like when I think about this, and I mean, you 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:20.200 can look at any any goddamn movie, write any read 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:25.679 any any novel. It's like, when you automate write every 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.840 single thing and you put people out of work, who 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.639 the fuck do you think is buying those goods with 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.840 the lack of resources that they have? Right, So you 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.720 are mass producing all of this ship and you've put 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.640 millions of people out of work. Who is buying it? 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.160 Right? It's like the the there's so many moves to automate. 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.080 We've seen already in factories throughout the Midwest. We see 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.200 the trucking industry dealing with this as a threat. There 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.840 are so many jobs that have disappeared because of automation, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.720 because of technology. I saw some some jackets on Twitter saying, 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:04.440 you know, we lost the job of telephone operator because 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.280 now we automate it, And isn't that a good thing? 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.399 And I don't know, maybe, but maybe not. Like, just 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.439 because we have the technological ability to change things, we 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.480 need to make sure that we're focusing on the human 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:21.040 aspect first, because otherwise who is it for? And like 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:22.840 you said, who's going to be able to buy all 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:27.960 of this cheaply produced content, these cheaply produced goods, if 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.280 no one has a job anymore, it's just very it 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.440 feels very shortsighted, even in the most cynical capitalistic way. 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.200 Like if you want to have a market to exploit, 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:41.359 if you want a product to sell to people, if 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:43.280 you want there to be consumers for you to make 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:47.280 money off of, they need to have money and they're 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:49.520 not going to have any money if they don't have 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.920 a job, because that's the way things are set up. 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.920 By embracing AI and automation to the extent that they 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.440 seem to be hinting at, they're just kind of automating 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.439 themselves out of a market too. So who even wins 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:03.960 besides the robots? 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:08.400 Yeah, what do you think, Kim? Like where do we 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.560 where do you see workers? Across industries because we're seeing 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:18.560 shortages everywhere, shortages and teaching right, Well, we know that 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.640 we don't pay teachers anything, and now we expect them 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:25.520 to have combat specialty right and be able to do 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:28.520 a tourniquit on a kid that was shot, and you know, 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:33.560 to turn their whiteboard into a bulletproof safe room. Like 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:37.120 we're expecting all of these things, but not giving and 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:40.440 giving teachers any more money. So there's a massive shortage 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:42.800 that we're seeing across the country. It's the same way 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.679 that COVID tapped out the medical and the health industry 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.439 with people being like, yeah, I don't actually want to 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:52.920 do this anymore. Right, it is a thankless in many ways, 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:56.280 had turned into a thankless kind of position and job 0:24:56.359 --> 0:25:00.200 and so and recognizing that this pandemic that we you've 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:02.600 had is probably not going to be the last one. 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.880 Given us how we've seemed to learn nothing right over 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:08.800 the last three years. And so when you see these 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:13.399 different pockets, right, whether it's help, whether it's education, whether 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.919 it's entertainment, whether it is you know, truck drivers and 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:21.679 factory workers and all of these similar things, like where 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:26.200 what do you think can good? I should say, can 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.880