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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to book f Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the home Bunker.

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Speaker 1: You know, folks, over the last couple of years, since

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Speaker 1: the beginning of COVID until now the return to work,

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Speaker 1: there have been so many conversations and so many headlines

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Speaker 1: that are looking at how we work and what kinds

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Speaker 1: of conditions we've allowed ourselves to tolerate, because that's just

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Speaker 1: quote unquote the way things are. And from the great

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Speaker 1: resignation to the condemnation that comes at Generation Z for

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Speaker 1: being quote unquote lazy they don't want to work hard.

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Speaker 1: I've recognized something which is that every generation has its

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Speaker 1: fight when it comes to how we work. Prior generations

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Speaker 1: believe that you just keep your head down, you take

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Speaker 1: the abuse, and that's how you ascend the corporate ladder.

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Speaker 1: What I recognize is that younger people have seen their

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Speaker 1: parents and their grandparents be treated in a certain type

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Speaker 1: of way. They've grown up with a lot of information

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Speaker 1: and are just like, why would I work for this person?

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Speaker 1: Why would I work for this company? Why would I

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Speaker 1: work for this place that demeans me, that makes me

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Speaker 1: feel small, where I feel like I'm living to work right,

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Speaker 1: and you know, as somebody who has had the great

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Speaker 1: fortune over the last few years to work for myself,

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Speaker 1: and it is not without its struggles. It's not without

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Speaker 1: its headaches alike. For instance, you know, we have the

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Speaker 1: market place here in New York that allows me to

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Speaker 1: get health care, but the healthcare is pretty shitty, right,

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Speaker 1: and that if I were employed by an organization or

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Speaker 1: a company, then I would have great health care, depending

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Speaker 1: on the organization or the company that I was working with.

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Speaker 1: But it's sure as s buck would be better than

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Speaker 1: what I'm paying for out of pocket. But there is

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Speaker 1: a level of autonomy. There is a level of ease

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Speaker 1: in which I am able to work these days that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case four five years ago. So for me,

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Speaker 1: I have made certain trade offs in being an entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: in being independent. While I watch some of my friends

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Speaker 1: make tons of money because they are in corporate jobs,

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Speaker 1: but some of them are really miserable. And I think

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Speaker 1: that what we learned during our time at the height

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Speaker 1: of COVID would which is our time is not promised, right,

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Speaker 1: like life can literally go in the blink of an eye,

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Speaker 1: And so how do we really want to be spending

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Speaker 1: our time, and if we're supposed to be in these

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Speaker 1: jobs eight to ten hours a day, shouldn't there be

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Speaker 1: some joy? Shouldn't there be some humanity that is centered

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Speaker 1: in them. And I'm not saying that work needs to

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Speaker 1: be like one of your hobbies, but it shouldn't absolutely

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Speaker 1: should not be a place that causes emotional and physical diuress.

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Speaker 1: And so the conversation that I have today bringing back

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Speaker 1: our friend Kim Kelly, the author of Fight Like Hell,

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Speaker 1: The Untold Story of American Labor, to talk about the

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Speaker 1: strikes that are ongoing, the Hollywood strikes with the writers

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Speaker 1: and the actors, the UPS strike that was just diverted

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Speaker 1: because the unions and the company came to an agreement

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Speaker 1: that would provide UPS workers raises and air conditioning in

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Speaker 1: their fucking trucks. Right, because you know, think about the

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Speaker 1: UPS delivery person who is working in say Oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Texas, Arizona, Florida, any of these places California

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Speaker 1: that have seen extreme heat, and they're in an unair

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Speaker 1: conditioned car for eight to ten hours a day. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: when we look at the way that unions are having

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Speaker 1: a moment again to try and create conditions that are

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Speaker 1: livable right for workers. And we think about the last

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Speaker 1: three years and a lot of places having gone to

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Speaker 1: hybrid work right, having downsized their commercial real offices and

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Speaker 1: have allowed workers to work partly at home because guess what.

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Speaker 1: The great resignation came because people were just like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't really have to do this job in an

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Speaker 1: office five days a week, away from my family, away

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Speaker 1: from friends, like locked in this cubicle, and not able

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Speaker 1: to actually live my life, like go for a walk,

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Speaker 1: run an errand make some food in the middle of

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Speaker 1: my day. Now we know that just being fully remote

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Speaker 1: doesn't work for a lot of people. It works for

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Speaker 1: me because I feel like I talk to people all

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Speaker 1: day long, every single day, so I don't actually need

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Speaker 1: to be in physical contact. The conversations that I have

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Speaker 1: every day all day are enriching enough. But that's me right.

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Speaker 1: And so the conversation that I have today with Kim

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Speaker 1: Kelly is talking about work, talking about Generation Z and

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Speaker 1: whether or not we are in the midst of a

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Speaker 1: true movement, a true dynamic shift, or if this is

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Speaker 1: just another fleeting moment. That conversation with Kim Kelly is

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Speaker 1: coming up next, Folks, I am so excited to welcome

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Speaker 1: back to woke af Kim Kelly, who is just an

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Speaker 1: all around badass when it comes to understanding American labor workers' rights,

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Speaker 1: is the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History

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Speaker 1: of American Labor and as a freelance journalist. Kim, It's

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Speaker 1: like this summer has been this summer in a lot

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Speaker 1: of way of strikes or potential strikes. In a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. We have seen, you know, from three years ago,

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Speaker 1: how COVID began, the initial shift, and how people work,

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Speaker 1: how they see themselves as workers, how they see themselves

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Speaker 1: appreciated or not as workers. And then now we are

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Speaker 1: looking at a historic strike that is happening in Hollywood

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Speaker 1: where writers and actors for the first time, I think

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Speaker 1: in forty years, have linked arms to demand better from

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Speaker 1: the studios and the networks. You had a ups strike

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Speaker 1: that was diverted. I think there is still a vote

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Speaker 1: that is happening in that space, but there was an

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Speaker 1: agreement that was reached and that was going to be

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Speaker 1: devastating to the country in terms of deliveries. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to open up with what is your feeling,

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Speaker 1: what is the vibe that is happening right now in

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Speaker 1: the American workforce.

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Speaker 2: People are fed up. Yeah, I think we're It's funny

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Speaker 2: because I'm certainly not an economist, so I would not

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Speaker 2: even venture to try and understand all of that. But

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Speaker 2: you keep seeing so many stats and like very liberal

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Speaker 2: blogs about how the economy is doing great. We're doing great, everyone,

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Speaker 2: All the numbers are good, but regular people working with

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Speaker 2: us people aren't feeling that. You know, we're still feeling

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Speaker 2: the pinch. Groceries are still expensive, Rents too damn high.

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Speaker 2: Like as much as you know, the government numbers might

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Speaker 2: look nicer to some people than they did a year

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Speaker 2: or two ago, that's not filtering down to regular human beings.

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Speaker 2: And I think so much of what's driving this wave

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Speaker 2: of strikes that we're seeing that it's it's too expensive

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Speaker 2: to be alive in this country right now. Too much money,

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Speaker 2: too much capital, too many resources that have filtered out

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Speaker 2: to the people at the top, the you know, CEOs

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Speaker 2: and corporations and rich politicians. And I'm sure like half

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Speaker 2: of it went to Elon Musk while I was just

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Speaker 2: talking right now, like there's just this gaping inequality it's

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Speaker 2: impossible to ignore at this point and like you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 2: early in the pandemic, there was I think a very

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Speaker 2: real shift in the way that people saw the value

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Speaker 2: of their lives and their labor. And we had the

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Speaker 2: essential worker discourse. We had the Great resignation as it

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Speaker 2: was called, when people were like, oh, I can maybe

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Speaker 2: get a better job all of a sudden because the

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Speaker 2: government actually helped out for like five minutes. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think this shift is still very much in play.

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Speaker 2: I think there's not really any putting that lightning back

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Speaker 2: in a bottle. I think that the way workers are

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Speaker 2: seeing things now, especially after seeing all of the gains

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Speaker 2: that have been made and the big contracts that are

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Speaker 2: being secured, the big organizing efforts were seeing you know,

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Speaker 2: all eyes around the team stairs for a while. I

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Speaker 2: feel like that store was covered very closely, and the

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Speaker 2: rhetoric that we heard from their leadership and from rack

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Speaker 2: and file workers about you know, nothing gets done without

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Speaker 2: us need to win a historic contract. We need so

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Speaker 2: much better, We need basic health considerations like air conditioning.

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Speaker 2: I think just putting that into the public consciousness as

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Speaker 2: much as it was that helped too. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we're at this moment where a lot of people are

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Speaker 2: on strike. A lot of very visible workers are on strike.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the Hollywood on strike situation, that is like

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Speaker 2: that is a big deal, and not just because it's

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Speaker 2: you know, my union's one of the unions involved. I

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Speaker 2: think one thing that is really kind of tipping the

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Speaker 2: scale is that so many of these big strike actions

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Speaker 2: we're seeing are hyper visible, like Hollywood one that's getting

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Speaker 2: tons of attention, as it should, and people are paying

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Speaker 2: attention to you know, these the funny protest signs, or

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Speaker 2: the celebrities doing this, or the studio bosses saying incredibly

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Speaker 2: evil stuff in a very public way, Like that's a big,

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Speaker 2: easy one to pay attention to. Meanwhile, you have Starbucks

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Speaker 2: workers in multiple cities off on a bus tour and

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Speaker 2: launching strike actions all the time. It's all very public

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Speaker 2: and immediate. So I think folks that maybe necessarily wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be reading labor stories or looking out for strike news,

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Speaker 2: you kind of can't avoid it. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: having an impact on people's you know, just ability to

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Speaker 2: imagine what is possible for themselves, Like if all these

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Speaker 2: people are out on strike and they're not making that

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Speaker 2: much money and they're not you know that privileged. Sure

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Speaker 2: in the in the Writer's Guild and the Screen Actors Guild,

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Speaker 2: some of them are doing fine, but even they're the minority,

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Speaker 2: like most people are struggling. And I just think that

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Speaker 2: hammered home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say about the writers.

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Speaker 1: That was the thing that I learned through the strike.

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Speaker 1: That the average writer is making like sixty nine thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars a year, right, Like we only as consumers really

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Speaker 1: only know the big names, right, but then folks who

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Speaker 1: are just like honestly, when you think about your you know,

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Speaker 1: the movies that you like or the shows that you like,

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Speaker 1: do you really know who is writing those?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember those names? And then to think that

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Speaker 1: they're making a far cry, like we see Hollywood as

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Speaker 1: this glitz and glamour and red carpets, and it's an

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Speaker 1: entire engine of people that are literally being grind so

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Speaker 1: that you can see the glitz and glamour, right that

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Speaker 1: is sprinkled around, like those are people hops like, you know,

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Speaker 1: inability to like to be homeowners, their inability to like

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Speaker 1: really provide for themselves and their family in a stable way.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this strike in particular has really

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Speaker 1: changed how people see this industry, you know, as a whole.

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Speaker 1: And I guess on that on that note, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about how public things have been, and that in this

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Speaker 1: moment people are just like set up. What is it

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Speaker 1: about this moment in particular? Do you think that are

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Speaker 1: having people set up?

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Speaker 2: Well? Everything? Like I mentioned before, I think it's just

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Speaker 2: too expensive to live. Like things are harder than they

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Speaker 2: should be, you know, like we see companies every day

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Speaker 2: announcing record profits or so and so buying another yacht

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Speaker 2: or so and so making another dirty deal with some CEO.

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Speaker 2: And meanwhile, people you know, can't afford childcare, can't afford groceries,

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Speaker 2: can't afford rent, you know, with the writers' strike. Most

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Speaker 2: of our members live in LA or New York, you know,

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Speaker 2: famously cheap places to live. I mean, it's I think

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Speaker 2: it really just comes down to that very basic feeling

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Speaker 2: of this is bullshit, Like things that we're told we're

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Speaker 2: living in this age of great prosperity, great economic you know, solvency,

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Speaker 2: things are going great. But why am I not seeing that?

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Speaker 2: Why is my neighbor not seeing that? Why is my

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Speaker 2: mother not seeing that? It just seems like there's a

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Speaker 2: great disconnect between what we're being told to celebrate about,

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Speaker 2: you know, the state of the Union, and what people

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Speaker 2: are actually feeling. Like, Yeah, Mazrell is still like seven

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Speaker 2: bucks of ball Let the act me in South Philly,

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Speaker 2: and that impacts me. You know what I'm doing better

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Speaker 2: than some people are. It's I think just the rampant

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Speaker 2: inequality in this country has gotten to such a brutal

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Speaker 2: point that even folks who do work and have solid

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Speaker 2: jobs are feeling the pinsion a way there's impossible to ignore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that to your I mean, you're totally

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Speaker 1: right in so many ways, and I want to get

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on. I mean, it's like listening to some

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Speaker 1: of these studio executives who spoke like in in interviews

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Speaker 1: at the Billionaire's Camp, right Bobe Augur Bob Eiger from

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Speaker 1: Disney interviewed at the Billionaire's Camp and saying that the

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Speaker 1: desires of the unions are unrealistic, that what it is

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Speaker 1: that they what it is that they are asking for,

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Speaker 1: is unrealistic. This is a man I just want to

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Speaker 1: say again, he makes seventy five thousand dollars a day.

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Speaker 1: He just had an extension on his contract with CBS

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Speaker 1: and Disney for another I think two or three years, right,

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Speaker 1: because he came in to quote unquote save the Day.

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Speaker 1: He had signed that contract in two for two or

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Speaker 1: three years at twenty six million dollars, right, and so

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Speaker 1: he's it's extended, So he's getting another twenty six or

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Speaker 1: twenty you know whatever million dollars. So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the average writer making sixty nine thousand dollars a year

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Speaker 1: and this CEO who makes seventy five thousand dollars a

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Speaker 1: day telling folks that the requests that they have are unrealistic.

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Speaker 1: What do you say to that.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of ways to lose your house? Oh man,

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Speaker 2: what in this calculation? Well, I think it's not. Even

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Speaker 2: when people like that say things like that, they don't think.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they think it through in a way like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this might make people mad at me, this might inflame

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Speaker 2: the strikers. I think that they actually believe these things.

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Speaker 2: They believe they are entitled to all of that. Well,

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Speaker 2: they believe they're indispensable. They're the ones doing all the

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Speaker 2: hard work. What are all these little people complaining about?

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Speaker 2: I think they just maybe you just lose your humanity

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Speaker 2: once you become that rich. I cannot think of any

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Speaker 2: other way that you could get like that and say

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Speaker 2: something like that, or to say like we would rather

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Speaker 2: starve them out than acquiesce to their incredibly reasonable demands

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Speaker 2: and lose a couple million here and there of our profit,

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Speaker 2: Like who do you think is doing all the work?

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Speaker 2: You would not have those millions, You would not have

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Speaker 2: that nice house, you would not have that gold plated

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Speaker 2: you know, healthcare plan without the people on the picket

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Speaker 2: lines right now who are losing their healthcare, Like it

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Speaker 2: is just I mean, I don't understand what is wrong

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Speaker 2: with these people. Fundamentally. It's the same mentality that we

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Speaker 2: heard from coal bosses in the Deep South who are

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Speaker 2: trying to starve out coal miners last year in Brooklyn, Alabama.

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Speaker 2: It's just this, it's just so ugly and it's so disconnected,

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Speaker 2: like you will like this great Man syndrome perhaps like

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Speaker 2: oh well, nothing known, this would happen without me. You

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Speaker 2: are the only person in this scenario who could be

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Speaker 2: automated out of existence with AI in a reasonable way.

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Speaker 2: Like you don't do anything. You make decisions about other

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Speaker 2: people's lives, and for this you're paid, Like the GDP

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Speaker 2: of a small nation. I think that is part of

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Speaker 2: what is fueling so much of the righteous anger. It's like,

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Speaker 2: not only are the studios and their heads refusing to

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Speaker 2: bargain in really in genuine good faith, they're refusing to

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Speaker 2: listen their workers' concerns, They're refusing to acknowledge their workers.

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Speaker 2: They're acting as though these workers who create all the

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Speaker 2: value are a bunch of whiny little brats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Like how dare you?

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Speaker 2: You mess? How dare you? And it's like, bro, who

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Speaker 2: you are nothing without them? And it's unfortunately it took

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Speaker 2: a historic strike to get them to really kind of

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Speaker 2: realize like, oh boy, we kind of need people to

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Speaker 2: make our shit.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned AI, and I want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: for a moment too, because I mean I have done

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Speaker 1: several interviews around AI, and you know, us building the

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Speaker 1: tools for our own destruction is essentially like where we're headed.

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Speaker 1: And I know that people are like, oh, well, it's great,

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Speaker 1: like it helps me do this and it helps me

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Speaker 1: do that. And I'm like, do you never read sci fi?

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Speaker 1: Like have you never seen like one movie? Have you

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Speaker 1: not listened to the creators of AI that have said

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Speaker 1: that AI is incredibly dangerous in the world. Like are

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Speaker 1: we not paying attention? But we are a nation of

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Speaker 1: people who don't pay attention. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: that was said, and again just sticking on Hollywood for

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Speaker 1: a moment, was Oh, we can get AI to do

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Speaker 1: this will come in, We'll you know, to photograph your face.

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Speaker 1: We'll be able to use it into perpetuity. We'll be

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Speaker 1: able to have, you know, to program said AI to

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Speaker 1: create you know, the next friends or the next you know,

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Speaker 1: living single, or the next like whatever, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and you'll be out of a job. So you should

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Speaker 1: be thankful and kissing our feet that you have one

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Speaker 1: right now, because we see your replacement in the next

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Speaker 1: five to ten years. So what do you make of

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Speaker 1: how the weaponization of technology to go against the actual

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Speaker 1: human creative, content creator and builder.

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Speaker 2: It's so you think humanity would learn from their past mistakes.

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Speaker 2: I think my friend Brian Merchant just wrote a really

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Speaker 2: brilliant new book called Blood and Machine, all about the

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Speaker 2: Ludite uprisings in England and like it was like the

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Speaker 2: seventeenth or eighteenth century way back, and it was so

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Speaker 2: similar to what's happening right now in broad strokes because

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Speaker 2: there was a class of talented workmen like artisans, weavers

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Speaker 2: and spinners, people that created the thread and the fabric

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Speaker 2: that became closed that you know, they had a whole

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Speaker 2: cottage industry. People had good jobs, they had a whole

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Speaker 2: cultural tradition of doing these jobs. And then machines came

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Speaker 2: in and the factory owners started bringing these machines and

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Speaker 2: cutting their word and taking away these people's jobs. And

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Speaker 2: the way that those workers responded was by smashing the

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Speaker 2: machines and launching an entire movement to destroy the machines

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Speaker 2: that were destroying their way of life. And it took

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Speaker 2: the entire force of the British government to put that

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Speaker 2: rebellion down. And I'm not saying we need to be

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Speaker 2: going into where you know, tech offices and smashing their algorithms,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not not saying it. You know, just because

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Speaker 2: we can does not.

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Speaker 1: Mean we should should.

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Speaker 2: Come on, Yeah, I like, you don't even need to

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Speaker 2: be a like a voracious sci fi reader to know,

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Speaker 2: you know, you can't always trust robots. That's that's the

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Speaker 2: whole thing. Like we that's one thing we could generally

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Speaker 2: agree on as a deeply divided people, you can't always

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Speaker 2: trust the robots. So why would you hand over your

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Speaker 2: entire industry, your entire livelihood, your entire just way of

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Speaker 2: being to like a human creation because.

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Speaker 1: They don't because they don't require healthcare, because they don't

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Speaker 1: require you don't have to have HR, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to you don't have to feed a robot, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to abide by hours, right. Like, But it's just

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Speaker 1: like when I think about this, and I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can look at any any goddamn movie, write any read

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Speaker 1: any any novel. It's like, when you automate write every

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Speaker 1: single thing and you put people out of work, who

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Speaker 1: the fuck do you think is buying those goods with

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Speaker 1: the lack of resources that they have? Right, So you

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Speaker 1: are mass producing all of this ship and you've put

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Speaker 1: millions of people out of work. Who is buying it?

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Speaker 2: Right? It's like the the there's so many moves to automate.

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Speaker 2: We've seen already in factories throughout the Midwest. We see

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Speaker 2: the trucking industry dealing with this as a threat. There

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Speaker 2: are so many jobs that have disappeared because of automation,

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Speaker 2: because of technology. I saw some some jackets on Twitter saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, we lost the job of telephone operator because

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Speaker 2: now we automate it, And isn't that a good thing?

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, maybe, but maybe not. Like, just

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Speaker 2: because we have the technological ability to change things, we

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Speaker 2: need to make sure that we're focusing on the human

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Speaker 2: aspect first, because otherwise who is it for? And like

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Speaker 2: you said, who's going to be able to buy all

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Speaker 2: of this cheaply produced content, these cheaply produced goods, if

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Speaker 2: no one has a job anymore, it's just very it

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Speaker 2: feels very shortsighted, even in the most cynical capitalistic way.

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Speaker 2: Like if you want to have a market to exploit,

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Speaker 2: if you want a product to sell to people, if

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Speaker 2: you want there to be consumers for you to make

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Speaker 2: money off of, they need to have money and they're

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Speaker 2: not going to have any money if they don't have

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Speaker 2: a job, because that's the way things are set up.

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Speaker 2: By embracing AI and automation to the extent that they

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Speaker 2: seem to be hinting at, they're just kind of automating

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Speaker 2: themselves out of a market too. So who even wins

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Speaker 2: besides the robots?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think, Kim? Like where do we

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Speaker 1: where do you see workers? Across industries because we're seeing

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Speaker 1: shortages everywhere, shortages and teaching right, Well, we know that

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Speaker 1: we don't pay teachers anything, and now we expect them

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Speaker 1: to have combat specialty right and be able to do

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Speaker 1: a tourniquit on a kid that was shot, and you know,

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Speaker 1: to turn their whiteboard into a bulletproof safe room. Like

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Speaker 1: we're expecting all of these things, but not giving and

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Speaker 1: giving teachers any more money. So there's a massive shortage

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing across the country. It's the same way

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Speaker 1: that COVID tapped out the medical and the health industry

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Speaker 1: with people being like, yeah, I don't actually want to

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Speaker 1: do this anymore. Right, it is a thankless in many ways,

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Speaker 1: had turned into a thankless kind of position and job

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Speaker 1: and so and recognizing that this pandemic that we you've

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Speaker 1: had is probably not going to be the last one.

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Speaker 1: Given us how we've seemed to learn nothing right over

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Speaker 1: the last three years. And so when you see these

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Speaker 1: different pockets, right, whether it's help, whether it's education, whether

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Speaker 1: it's entertainment, whether it is you know, truck drivers and

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Speaker 1: factory workers and all of these similar things, like where

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Speaker 1: what do you think can good? I should say, can

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Speaker 1: come from this moment.

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Speaker 2: In terms of Okay, I love, I love to look

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Speaker 2: on the bright side, but that one took me a second.

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Speaker 2: But I think that right, because shit's grim. But I

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Speaker 2: think the most valuable lesson that we're learning, or that

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Speaker 2: people are learning about themselves, is that they deserve better,

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Speaker 2: you know, the that they should not have to put

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Speaker 2: up with this ship, that they should not be effected to,

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Speaker 2: you know, pull a full Victorian orphan and say please,

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Speaker 2: or may have some more for like their five dollars

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Speaker 2: paycheck after some parents spit in their face for teaching history,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, I think it goes back to people

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Speaker 2: being fed up because they they know that they're worth

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Speaker 2: more than this and they deserve better. And I think

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Speaker 2: that is something that is fueling this this rise in

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Speaker 2: organizing and striking and you know, worker organizing outside of

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Speaker 2: the union structure, because people realize that I shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: expected to live like this. I am valuable, my skills

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Speaker 2: are valuable, my personhood is valuable, and I'm not being

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Speaker 2: treated as though those things are true. So what can

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Speaker 2: I do about that? And for a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: it seems like that answer has been Okay, let me

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Speaker 2: talk to my coworkers, let me talk to my neighbors,

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Speaker 2: let me talk to some folks on my block, and

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Speaker 2: try and organize and change that, because I think so

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Speaker 2: many people have just been beaten down and isolated and

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Speaker 2: felt as though they got mad. And one of the

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Speaker 2: only existing mechanisms we have to combat that is organizing

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Speaker 2: and building collective power and taking care of our neighbors

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Speaker 2: and our coworkers, because we know nobody else is they

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Speaker 2: just want to automate us out of existence and make

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Speaker 2: it as if we never were here in the first place. Oh,

433
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's what gives me hope that people

434
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: are realizing just how much they're worth and how much

435
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: better they deserve.

436
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: You know, My last question for you is about Generation Z, right,

437
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: the generation that is just leaving college, leaving vocational schools

438
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: and entering into the workforce. And there's a lot that's

439
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: being said about Gen Z. Oh they don't want to work.

440
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: Oh they're lazy. Oh they're entitled. Oh they're this, that

441
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: and the other thing. And I realize that now, given

442
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: the age that I am, that happens to pretty much

443
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: every fucking generation.

444
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: Right.

445
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: The older generation has some hot shit to say about

446
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: their yeah, about about their about their entry and all

447
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: forgotten and all and all the ship. And I wonder,

448
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, because they are coming in with so much

449
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: access to information, with so much understanding of technology, with

450
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: the world where they're going to be the generation that

451
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: is less better off than their parents and their grandparents.

452
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: What do you make of their understanding of labor and

453
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: capitalism and how that is going to shift culture in

454
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: in in in the workforce.

455
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: I think they're right. I don't want to work either.

456
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to work. I mean, I'm a mentally lucky

457
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: and privileged that I enjoy the work that I do.

458
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 2: But there's still some downsides, you know, and seeing that

459
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: this younger generation got hers to not be the younger

460
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: generation anymore. But but I'm so proud of them and

461
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: inspired by them and fascinated by them because it seems

462
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: like the increased access to information and fluidity with digital

463
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: systems and technology, that's that's an asset, right, Like having

464
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: a worker come into your place of employment who is

465
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: not going to allow themselves to be trampled on or

466
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: her ass who's going to advocate for their rights and

467
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: their coworkers' rights, who can open the PDF for you

468
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: and are willing to learn like that seems like an

469
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: ideal worker for me. We are far past this idea

470
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: of you know, the you work in one place your

471
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: entire life and you retire with a gold watch and

472
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: a pension. Who that's the fairy tale. At this point,

473
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: those jobs aren't there, and if they are, they're not

474
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: there for the vast majority of us. Therefore, a guy's

475
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: name Jeff who went to Harvard, and I don't really

476
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 2: care what happens to those guys. The thing that I

477
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: really love about gen Z too, that I see online,

478
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: which is really where I interact with them because I

479
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: fear them, you know, is just how loudly and unequivocally

480
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: they've embraced labor and organizing really, the way that they've

481
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: honed in on how intersectional so much this organizing needs

482
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: to be. You know, the same kids, well not kids,

483
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: the same young people who are organizing their workplaces are

484
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: also marching for racial justice. They're also calling out the

485
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: Supreme Court for destroying our lives constantly, are also standing

486
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: out for their queer and trance coworkers whenever possible, Like

487
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: it's all so connected. That's something that I tried to

488
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: convey in my book. That's something that I think really

489
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 2: fuels this current moment in labor, at least the good parts,

490
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: the parts that are moving, you know. Just realizing how

491
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: connected we all are. That's something that is not unique

492
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 2: to the younger generation, but it seems much more common

493
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: among them. Realizing that, you know, abortion is a worker's issue,

494
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: transrid to a worker's issue. You know, it's all everything's

495
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: a worker's issue. The climate crisis is definitely a worker's issue.

496
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: Yep.

497
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: I think it takes a little bit more efforts sometimes

498
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: to make those connections when you're a little more set

499
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: in your ways, or you've been doing things for a

500
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: long time, or you just don't have as many younger

501
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: friends who are chronically online. And that's okay, that's why

502
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: we talk to each other and we organize between generations.

503
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: But gen Z, they're fucking red man. Like, I'm excited

504
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: to see what they do.

505
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I feel the same way. I'm very

506
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: excited to see what they do. I think that, you know,

507
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: they have the best of every generation, like in terms

508
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: of their intellectual capacity, their emotional capacity, their empathy, and

509
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: they're really understanding of interlocking systems, and so what they

510
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: choose to do with the information that is so readily

511
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: at their fingertips, I think will be something, you know,

512
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: a site to see. And they've already begun to shift

513
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: culture in terms of yeah, I don't want to work

514
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,239
Speaker 1: like this, right, Like I don't want to work in

515
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: this oppressive you know, fashion and you know, and we

516
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to, right, And so just because you did

517
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: it in a generation before me, this is the right

518
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: of passage. Shouldn't be work or abuse. And that's what

519
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: a lot of us, I think, have experienced throughout our time.

520
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: If we really think back, and we're just like, oh, wow,

521
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: I was aggressively taken advantage of when I was twenty

522
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: five years old, right, and didn't know anything about you know,

523
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: about the organization or the company that I was in. Right,

524
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: And so given that, it's like, well I went through it,

525
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: you should go through it, and it should be like, no,

526
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: we should actually want better.

527
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. By the same argument, we should all be working

528
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: in unventilated garment factories with locked doors for fourteen hours

529
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: a day. Not all of us have to do that anymore.

530
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: And unless you live in Alabama because.

531
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: Or La or yeah, yes, yeah, the thing everything old

532
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: is new again, right, But at least just.

533
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: Like child labor, which I'll have you back on to

534
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: talk about that.

535
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: God which never went away either. You know, sometimes it's

536
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: hard to hold onto my my pozi vibes. But I

537
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: do think that the younger generation and the one below them,

538
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: because what Gen Alpha, Yep, they're like they're like people now,

539
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: like they're.

540
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll be they're they're they're roughly like they're ten

541
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: years I think away from the workforce, do you know

542
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like in a in a substantial way,

543
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 1: like Gen Alpha are tweens right now, right, So in

544
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: ten years, right, they'll be twenty one.

545
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: And that is going to be a whole different world,

546
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: hopefully in a good way, probably in a bad way,

547
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 2: but at least they know that their parents and I

548
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: guess their grandparents will have put some work in to

549
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: try and make it better.

550
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: And shallah, we'll see Kim Kelly. It is always such

551
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: a pleasure when I get to have you on woke app.

552
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate you so very much. Please tell the people

553
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: where they can follow you.

554
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: I am regrettably still on Twitter. I groomed Kim. I

555
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: have a Patreon I have. My book is coming out

556
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: in paperback at the end of the month. On August

557
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: twenty ninth, I'm doing a couple book events in New

558
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: York and Philly, then on the West Coast and Yeah, I,

559
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: like many members of my generation, I am aggressively online.

560
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: So give me Wesle. You'll find me awesome.

561
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, appreciate you, Oh.

562
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.

563
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke

564
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: af as always power to the people and to all

565
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fun