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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 3: oh boy, have we got a movie to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: We're pretty sure this is going to be our first

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Speaker 3: and perhaps only ever two part episode of Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: And you might be thinking what movie could possibly cause

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Speaker 3: them to split Weird House Cinema into two parts? It's

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Speaker 3: David Lynch's Dune from nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. We normally try and keep Weird House

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Speaker 2: as a single episode installment situation, but the cast is

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Speaker 2: too rich here, the weirdness is too deep. And with

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Speaker 2: release of Dnis Villeneuve's Dune Part two, obviously Dune is

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Speaker 2: in the air once more. Everybody's going crazy for this film,

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Speaker 2: and rightfully so, and that gives us the excuse. All right, everybody,

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Speaker 2: he's digging Dune. Right now, we can do a two

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Speaker 2: parter on Weird House Cinema about David Lynch's adaptation.

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Speaker 3: Wait did you see the new one?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Over the weekend just slammed the Dune. My son

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Speaker 2: had never seen Dune Part one, so we rewatched that

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Speaker 2: with him, and then we all went out to the

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Speaker 2: movie theater for you know, three hours and watched Dune

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Speaker 2: Part two with a full cinematic experience. We didn't get

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Speaker 2: the popcorn bucket, but we still had a great time.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely a film worth seeing on a big screen.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm very jealous of that experience because I am

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Speaker 3: so excited to see it. I haven't been able to

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Speaker 3: make it out yet because we you know, we got

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Speaker 3: a seventeen month old. We don't get out to movies

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Speaker 3: these days. But as soon as it hits streaming, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be there. And I'm very excited about that

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Speaker 3: because I really did love the twenty twenty one Dune,

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Speaker 3: and that one really surpassed my expectations in so many ways.

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Speaker 3: Because Robert, you know, we've long been fans of the

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Speaker 3: book and talked about it on the show all time,

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Speaker 3: and have been in certain ways fans of the movie

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Speaker 3: we're talking about in this episode today. But it is

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Speaker 3: not a book that lends itself to the screen. You know.

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Speaker 3: It is like a It is a wonderful novel, but

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Speaker 3: it almost feels like it was written to be specifically

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Speaker 3: difficult to adapt to the movie format.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It's a complex novel, full of interstellar feudalism,

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Speaker 2: psychotropic drugs, sandworms, lots of plots within plots, lots of conversations,

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Speaker 2: and then when the action does take place, when there

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Speaker 2: are big action spectacles, they generally happen off the page

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Speaker 2: and are referred to after the fact, you know. So

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Speaker 2: it's not one of these things where you can just

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Speaker 2: like PLoP it on the table and like this is

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Speaker 2: what we're filming today. You know, it has a reputation

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Speaker 2: for being a difficult adaptation. And yeah, credit where credits due.

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Speaker 2: Danny v nailed it. I think he nailed it in

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Speaker 2: part one, and then part two really seals the deal.

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Speaker 2: And it's a true spectacle with the caveat. I have

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Speaker 2: to say, like I've always been a Doom Book first fan,

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Speaker 2: and I don't mean that in a snobby way, and

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Speaker 2: I mean that and like that's how I read it

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Speaker 2: for the first time, That's how I explored the world

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Speaker 2: for the first time, and therefore, like that's always my

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Speaker 2: starting point. And given the difficulties of that of adapting it,

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Speaker 2: you know, you have to go into it with the

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Speaker 2: expectation that any filmmaker, regardless of what they're working with,

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Speaker 2: they're they're going to have to pick and choose, as

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Speaker 2: with most adaptations, to varying degrees, but you know, you're

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Speaker 2: going to have to pick and choose, like what aspects

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Speaker 2: of Doom you're going to realize on the screen, what

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Speaker 2: aspects of the characters you're going to realize, and what

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Speaker 2: you're going to condense and what you're going to leave out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I think some stories do just

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Speaker 3: naturally translate to the screen more easily if they're I

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Speaker 3: don't know, you know, if the story is written more

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Speaker 3: like a play, like if it's very dialogue driven already,

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Speaker 3: if you know, if a lot of the story is

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Speaker 3: contained already in the exchanges between the characters, and so

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Speaker 3: if it's already kind of an external story, Dune I

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Speaker 3: think is really difficult for at least a couple of

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Speaker 3: reasons I can think of. One is that understanding the

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Speaker 3: story relies so heavily on like this deep understanding of

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Speaker 3: the setting and the world, which relies on a glossary actually,

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Speaker 3: like there's you know, an encyclopedia, So it's very fun

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Speaker 3: to explore in written format and to like learn all

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Speaker 3: the politics and the technology, and you know, the strange

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Speaker 3: world that Frank Herbert created. But it's hard to get

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Speaker 3: all of that into a movie format without having just

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Speaker 3: big dumps of exposition, which unfortunately the Lynch movie does have.

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Speaker 3: There are scenes where there's just characters sitting around explaining

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Speaker 3: or even voiceover narrating lots of stuff about politics and

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Speaker 3: technology and what happens in the Dune universe, and it

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Speaker 3: does get kind of overwhelming at times. Another thing I

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Speaker 3: would say, though, is that in addition to the importance

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Speaker 3: of the setting, there's also just a lot of internal

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Speaker 3: stuff in Dune, like characters having visions, thinking through things.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the drama is within character's minds, and

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Speaker 3: so that's also kind of difficult to externalize in a

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Speaker 3: way that the viewer can participate in without just having

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Speaker 3: people again doing like voiceover of their internal monologue, which

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Speaker 3: Lynch's adaptation also does and is occasionally funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially we ended up watching it when I rewatched

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Speaker 2: this with my wife, who was who's I was surprised

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Speaker 2: she was game for it. Monday night, the day after

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Speaker 2: watching Dune Part two, we watched David Lynch's Doom and

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Speaker 2: we watched it with the subtitles because I'd read somewhere

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Speaker 2: someone advised like, this is a good choice because you

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Speaker 2: can keep a little better track of who's saying what.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot of internal voice colon what's being said,

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Speaker 2: which makes it a little little more hilarious at times

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Speaker 2: when this occurs.

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Speaker 3: Yes, especially well. Actually, one of the funniest parts of

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Speaker 3: it is that you will often get a close up

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Speaker 3: of the actor making like a serious face while we

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Speaker 3: see them thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a hard one to pull off. But that

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Speaker 2: being said, you know, if you're gonna do it, commit

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Speaker 2: to it fully, don't do it just in a couple

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Speaker 2: of places where it's like, oh, they lost track of

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Speaker 2: what they were doing. This scene wasn't working, so they're

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Speaker 2: going to do a little bit of this. No, No,

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Speaker 2: it's throughout the film, so it's in a way it's

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Speaker 2: more forgivable since it's ubiquitous.

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Speaker 3: But hey, we're not here to knock the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: four Dune because I would say that I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be forthright and acknowledged this movie has a lot of shortcomings.

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Speaker 3: There are many things about it that don't work. But

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Speaker 3: also I love it. I love David Lynch's Dune.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, is it the most faithful adaptation? No,

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Speaker 2: it is it the best? Well, it's hard to make

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Speaker 2: an argument for that, perhaps, but is it absolutely weird?

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Speaker 2: Is it? Is it consistently entertaining? Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's also shorter. Uh. In caveat here, we are

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Speaker 2: going to be only dealing with the theatrical cut of

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Speaker 2: the film, the only cut that that David Lynch ever,

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Speaker 2: you know, acknowledged and approved, and we'll get back into

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Speaker 2: that later on. But yeah, it's like, it's it's a reasonable,

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Speaker 2: reasonably linked film. Uh, that's also part of the problem here,

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Speaker 2: we'll discuss. But uh, yeah, it's uh, it's it's shorter

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Speaker 2: than some of your other options. Right.

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Speaker 3: So on the downside, that does mean, especially in the

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Speaker 3: first half of the movie, you do get a lot

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Speaker 3: of scenes of incredibly just heavy deposits of exposition, where

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Speaker 3: there's like a narrator just telling you a lot of

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Speaker 3: stuff really fast, and I think, especially if you were

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Speaker 3: not already familiar with the story, you'd just be like

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Speaker 3: what what what? All the like, it just comes thick

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Speaker 3: and fast when you're not really ready for it. Often,

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Speaker 3: I think, so that is a problem with trying to

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Speaker 3: cram this much story into this short of a runtime.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, given how much they fit into

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Speaker 3: this short of a runtime, I am shocked how well

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Speaker 3: it works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I imagine we had the same experience on this,

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Speaker 2: but because I think you have something that notes to

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Speaker 2: this effect. But a lot of the reviews for this

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Speaker 2: film make a point of saying it's incomprehensible. You have

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Speaker 2: no idea what's going on any given point. I did

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Speaker 2: not have that experience rewatching the film, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think you did either, obviously, because we know the major beats,

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Speaker 2: we know what's going to happen, we know who everyone

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Speaker 2: is supposed to.

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Speaker 3: Be, right, so we can't really come at the movie cold.

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Speaker 3: Like I'd read the novel before I saw this movie,

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Speaker 3: so I already knew the story. So it's kind of

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Speaker 3: hard for me to imagine what it would be like

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Speaker 3: not being familiar going in. Though when I try to

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Speaker 3: imagine that, I can say, like, yeah, I think this

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Speaker 3: opening narration would be a little would be a little

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Speaker 3: hard to get past. You'd be like, wait, I can't

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Speaker 3: keep track of everything you're saying, what's the spacing guild? Huh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and people have these issues too, even with the

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Speaker 2: more recent adaptations, Like I remember seeing stuff online where

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Speaker 2: people with the first film were confused and thought that

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Speaker 2: perhaps the Baron was also the Emperor. They were a

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Speaker 2: little unclear on that. And I know that my wife

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Speaker 2: initially had some confusion over two different blonde characters in

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Speaker 2: part two. I'm not going to reveal who they are,

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Speaker 2: but she was like, at least momentarily, like, wait, are

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Speaker 2: these the same character? No, these are two different characters.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, this stuff's going to happen anytime you're

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Speaker 2: adapting something so complex. Now, speaking of fitting a lot

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Speaker 2: into a limited runtime, I also just want to quickly

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Speaker 2: note that this movie has been out for a while,

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Speaker 2: It has a cult following. It is a David Lynch movie.

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Speaker 2: There have been multiple great documentaries, books, papers, etc. On

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Speaker 2: this production, on previous attempts at producing done for the screen,

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Speaker 2: subsequent productions. We can't possibly get into all of that,

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Speaker 2: but we'll reference a little of it as we go.

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Speaker 3: Have you watched the documentary about Yodorowski's Done.

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Speaker 2: No. I had read about it plenty before it came out,

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Speaker 2: and I've just never gotten around to watching it. But

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Speaker 2: that is of course, a fascinating slash infamous example of

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Speaker 2: you know, what if what if Jodorowski had actually made

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Speaker 2: this stupendous semi adaptation of Dune with this just colossally

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Speaker 2: Bonker's cast, I'm glad he didn't, and not just because

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Speaker 2: I'm protective of Dune to a certain extent, but also

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Speaker 2: because you see the influence of Doune in his later

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Speaker 2: works with Mobius in the Metabaron series. These are graphic

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Speaker 2: novels that Jodorowski wrote, and those are tremendously fun and trippy,

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Speaker 2: and they have elements of that kind of like Dune

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Speaker 2: feudal psychedelic world, but it's it's removed from Herbert's novels

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Speaker 2: and it can be its own thing. So I think

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Speaker 2: like ultimately everything landed for the best. On that regard,

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Speaker 2: that makes sense. So you're saying you'd rather instead of

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Speaker 2: seeing Yodowski like impose his vision upon an adaptation of Dune,

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Speaker 2: you'd rather see him take a bunch of influence from

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Speaker 2: Dune and make his own thing. It's exactly yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think it worked out for the best.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: On that note, let's go ahead and listen to some

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Speaker 2: trailer audio. Specifically, I believe this is a radio spot.

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Speaker 2: I love it when we can feature a radio spot

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Speaker 2: since it is ideally tuned for the listening audience. Here

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Speaker 2: this one. I found this one online. This was apparently

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Speaker 2: something that aired in Salt Lake City, So let's have

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Speaker 2: a listen. No, the most widely read, talked about, and

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Speaker 2: cherished masterpiece of the generation comes to the screen.

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Speaker 3: Su I see doing great houses.

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Speaker 2: A world that holds creation's greatest treasure. You controls the

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Speaker 2: snice controls the universe comp.

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Speaker 3: And greatest terrorst A world with a mighty.

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Speaker 2: All I can see is it a Treadees that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to kill and the magical the Sleeper. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: we'll have their final battle.

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Speaker 3: A world called Dune.

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Speaker 2: Long live the fight us. We will kill until no

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Speaker 2: har Conan breeze, aercane air duel. A world beyond your experience,

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Speaker 2: beyond your imagination. Details about the Dune Adventure in Washington,

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Speaker 2: d C. Are coming soon from Uni Brussel Pictures Eastern

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Speaker 2: Airlines at one L six afm KCGL.

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Speaker 3: You know, Rob, I went to rewatch this movie on

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Speaker 3: Max HBO. Max, I guess formerly and Max has a

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Speaker 3: great little thing where it's like you know, if some

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Speaker 3: of these streaming services do this, they say, hey, if

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Speaker 3: you liked this movie, you might also like do you

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Speaker 3: want to know what the fan of Dune nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: four might also like?

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Speaker 2: Let's have it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's Dune twenty twenty one. I guess that's not surprising,

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Speaker 3: Leviathan nineteen eighty nine one of our faves. Yeah, war

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Speaker 3: games and Escape from La from La.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've never had the courage to watch Escape

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Speaker 2: from La. Oh love Carpenter, love love the cast for

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Speaker 2: Escape from La And I remember it had a fun

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Speaker 2: soundtrack that came out at the time.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, not anybody's best work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we know, speaking of Max. That is also where

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Speaker 2: I ended up rewatching it. But if anyone out there,

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Speaker 2: if you want to go watch nineteen eighty four, is

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Speaker 2: Dune in full before continuing with these episodes? Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: also widely available in digital and physical formats anywhere you

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Speaker 2: might want to watch it. Unlike the sci fi mini series,

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Speaker 2: which is a little hard to get your hands on

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Speaker 2: right now, you can definitely get the nineteen eighty four

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Speaker 2: adaptation any way you want to get it. Aero Video

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Speaker 2: put out a very nice blu ray package of the

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Speaker 2: film in twenty twenty one, if you're a collector and

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Speaker 2: or want that physical media.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of I've never seen the sci fi mini series,

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Speaker 3: have you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I watched, well, I watched the first one, and

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Speaker 2: I've only seen bits and pieces of the follow up

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Speaker 2: where they adapted Doune Messiah and Children of Doune, and

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Speaker 2: I remember it being lavish. You know, it has some

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Speaker 2: very great costumes, It has a lot of good casting

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Speaker 2: and in some great casting in places. So as we proceed,

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Speaker 2: I'll at times refer to alternate castings for some of

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Speaker 2: these characters and which ones I like, which ones I didn't,

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Speaker 2: And they did nail it at least on a couple

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Speaker 2: of the castings. So's it's I don't know how the

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Speaker 2: effects hold up, but the costumes are great and some

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Speaker 2: of the performances are nice.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen it, and in saying this, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to malign it, so maybe it's better than it looks.

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Speaker 3: But in some screenshots or stills I've seen from it,

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Speaker 3: it does kind of have that made for TV look.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or almost kind of like a film stage

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Speaker 2: production sort of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. One more thing

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Speaker 2: I want to quickly add about this version of the

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Speaker 2: film that we're watching today. Again, I was kind of

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Speaker 2: a book first fan, and I remember the first time

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Speaker 2: that I bought a copy of Doone at the I

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Speaker 2: think it was a books a million, you know, so

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like a nice cozy local bookstore. Is one

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Speaker 2: of the big warehouse bookstores. But the cashier was so

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Speaker 2: excited when I brought up the book, and she was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: you were going to love this. This is a great novel.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the best. And she explained to

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Speaker 2: me that she and her husband were huge fans of Doune,

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Speaker 2: and they were such huge fans that they would watch

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Speaker 2: David Lynch's Dune, and at that time it was just

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Speaker 2: the movie. It was the only movie version out. They

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Speaker 2: would watch the movie version every night as they went

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Speaker 2: to sleep, every night this film. And so I think

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Speaker 2: from an early age, despite the criticisms and rejections of

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Speaker 2: this film that were already out there, it's like I

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Speaker 2: knew it's like this. This lady and her husband loved

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Speaker 2: this film and they love the book, so it can't

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Speaker 2: be too far off base. And therefore I think I've

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Speaker 2: always been been more than a little willing to invite

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Speaker 2: aspects of this film and its look and it sound

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Speaker 2: into my head version of.

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Speaker 3: That is fascinating. So literally, as you said, as they

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Speaker 3: go to sleep, so they're like, yeah, drifting off to

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Speaker 3: the to the sounds of like Baron Harkonen's doctor singing

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Speaker 3: love songs to his boils as he's poking them with

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Speaker 3: a needle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or Baron Harkonen like just laughing maniacally and floating

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Speaker 2: around the room. Yeah. Yeah, it's their lullaby. I hope

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Speaker 2: they're still doing it. They're still together, and they're still

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Speaker 2: watching David Lynch's Doom every night.

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Speaker 3: Why, Baron, I love your precious diseases.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's start getting into the connections here.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna tackle every thing a little differently here, so

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Speaker 2: you know, first of all, on some of these we're

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Speaker 2: gonna try and maybe spend a little less time with

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Speaker 2: them just because we have such a huge cast to

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Speaker 2: go through. And additionally, we're not gonna just divide the

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Speaker 2: episode like normal. We're not gonna do like just connections,

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Speaker 2: just cast and crew in this episode and then plot

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Speaker 2: in the next. We're gonna run through like a few

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Speaker 2: key behind the scenes individuals, and then we're gonna get

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Speaker 2: into the plot and then talk about the key actors

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Speaker 2: as they appear in the narrative.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think that is a good approach for a

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Speaker 3: two part Weird House episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we labored over this a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: this is this is what we came up with. Okay,

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Speaker 2: all right, let's start at the top. Yeah. The director

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Speaker 2: also the writer the adapted screenplay on this one is,

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Speaker 2: of course, David Lynch born nineteen forty six. Now, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna have to defer to you, Joe on on some

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Speaker 2: of the details of David Lynch's filmography, and certainly about

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Speaker 2: like the texture of what a Lynchian film is, because

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen as many David Lynch films. I've basically

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Speaker 2: just seen his Dune. I've seen Eraserhead, and I've seen

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Speaker 2: Mulholland Drive. But that leaves out a number of like

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Speaker 2: huge films that are highly influential in his sort of

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Speaker 2: like neo noir weird aesthetic.

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Speaker 3: I think if you've seen eraser Head and Mulholland Drive,

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Speaker 3: you have a pretty good idea of what some of

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Speaker 3: his dominant themes are. But we'll come back to that

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 2: Now, at this point in his career, this was only Lynch.

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Speaker 2: This was Lynch's third full length motion picture, following the

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Speaker 2: ultra weird eraser Head in nineteen seventy seven, and this

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Speaker 2: was more in keeping with a lot of his previous

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Speaker 2: short film films and nineteen eighties The Elephant Man. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think I also have seen The Elephant Man, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I've seen The Elephant Man in full.

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Speaker 2: I've at least seen enough of it to know what

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Speaker 2: it's about that at least was a box office and

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Speaker 2: critical hit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually haven't seen The Elephant Man. I've meant

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Speaker 3: too for years. I know it's a widely revered movie.

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Speaker 3: People say it's great. I have seen a raser Head

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Speaker 3: eraser Head is. It's funny to contrast that with Dune,

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Speaker 3: because eraser Head is only barely a narrative film. It

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Speaker 3: is much more like, well, it's sort of an art

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Speaker 3: horror film. I would almost say it is a film

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Speaker 3: about images and feelings and the I would say the

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Speaker 3: main emotion that it conveys is fear and desperation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a feel good hit for sure. So

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Speaker 2: at this point in David Lynch's career. He was like

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Speaker 2: a hot up and comer, you know. At the time,

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Speaker 2: he was even discussed as a potential director for Return

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Speaker 2: the Jedi. So a lot of big producers were eyeing

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Speaker 2: this guy as you know, as they still do today,

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Speaker 2: you know, hot new director. And then incomes a producer

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Speaker 2: in this case like Dino di Laurentez, who we've has

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Speaker 2: come up on the show multiple times before, you know,

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Speaker 2: major producer of the time period, putting together such epics

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Speaker 2: as Flash Gordon, which we recently talked about on the show.

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Speaker 2: And he was like definitely the kind of guy who

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Speaker 2: want who was attracted to talent, like he wanted to

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Speaker 2: bring in someone that had vision, but would also of

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Speaker 2: course fall in line and play the studio game.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so I think this was not a match made

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Speaker 3: in heaven with David Lynch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it ended up not to be the case. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, we have this film which is

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Speaker 2: such a joy to watch and discuss, and like, this

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Speaker 2: is the trajectory we're on. We can't go back and

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Speaker 2: change it. But yeah, while this vision of Doune eventually

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Speaker 2: earned a cult following, it was a commercial and critical disaster.

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Speaker 2: At the time considered again by many to be just

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Speaker 2: an incomprehensible mess. You look back at like what Ebert

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Speaker 2: said about it, like everyone was just like, this is awful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Tons of critics at the time said it was

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Speaker 3: impossible to follow the plot, that it was super confusing,

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Speaker 3: they didn't know what was going on. People thought it

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Speaker 3: was like weird and unpleasant. People thought that it looked

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Speaker 3: that despite the fact that it was an incredibly big

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Speaker 3: budget production, like it huge, you know, and you can

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Speaker 3: see it in some of the like gorgeous, lavishly realized

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Speaker 3: sets and costumes and all that. Yeah, people did single

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Speaker 3: out that there were parts of it that looked cheap,

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Speaker 3: and I actually do kind of agree. There are, like

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Speaker 3: most of the the design in it does look amazing,

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Speaker 3: but there are some weird shots that look kind of

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Speaker 3: slapped together in there, and I don't know where that

399
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Speaker 3: comes from. Just generally, critics were very very harsh about it.

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Speaker 3: It made a lot of like worst movie of the

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Speaker 3: Year lists and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And again, we can't heap all of this

403
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Speaker 2: on Lynch. The novel is a lot to tackle. There

404
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Speaker 2: were a lot of cooks he had to deal with here.

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Speaker 2: His initial initial cut of the film apparently came in

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Speaker 2: in over three hours and was eventually cut down. But

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Speaker 2: the producers and because the producers in the studio wanted

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Speaker 2: more of like a two hour cut. You know, they're like,

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Speaker 2: people need to be able to go to the bathroom again.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is good. We want it to be successful,

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Speaker 2: and this is what you need to have for success.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they wanted a big commercial hit. They wanted something

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Speaker 3: like Star Wars and something that would be a big

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Speaker 3: sci fi movie that made a lot of money. And

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Speaker 3: if you know, you make a three hour movie. At

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Speaker 3: the time, the thinking was, nobody's gonna want to see that.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to sit there that long. That's it's

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Speaker 3: a bunch of artsy fartsy stuff. Just you know, cut

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Speaker 3: it down, just get get to get to the action.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, for context, Denny Ve's combined doing adaptation, the

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Speaker 2: recent adaptations come in at more than five hours in

422
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Speaker 2: a length. Total. That sci fi mini series adaptation is

423
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Speaker 2: more than four hours in length if you're just dealing

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Speaker 2: with the initial cut.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's a lot of story to cram in

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Speaker 3: and it's it's amazing what this movie does with in

427
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Speaker 3: the end, what it's like two and a half hours

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Speaker 3: or so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So numerous cuts were made, new scenes were

430
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Speaker 2: apparently filmed, whole scenes were just cut entirely, or there

431
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Speaker 2: there are plenty different various points in the film where

432
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: they're clearly you're having a character briefly remember a scene

433
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 2: that clearly had to be cut, or they're just shoehorning

434
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 2: just a clip of that scene in so you see

435
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: the seams in this final theatrical cut of David Lynch's Dune.

436
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: He has long considered the film a failure, and he

437
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 2: generally opts not to discuss it in interviews. He disowned

438
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: the extended TV premiere of the film and has long

439
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: dismissed the idea of doing a director's cut, at least

440
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: i've read until very recently.

441
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: Now.

442
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 2: I don't know if he just happened to be in

443
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: a really good mood in some of these interviews, but

444
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 2: I've read that he was like, you know, maybe it's

445
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 2: been enough time. Maybe I could look back at it

446
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: and see if there's anything that I could piece back together.

447
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 2: But I don't know. It doesn't sound like we should

448
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: necessarily get our hopes up.

449
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd be interested to see that. But yeah, I

450
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: remember reading that David Lynch not only considered the movie

451
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 3: of failure, he was extremely upset by the process of

452
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 3: making this film and the way the producer is tampered with,

453
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 3: in his view, I think sabotage his vision for it.

454
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: And he believed this to the extent that he said

455
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: he wished he had never taken the project at all.

456
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: Like speaking to an interviewer years later, he said, quote,

457
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: the experience has taught me a valuable lesson. I learned

458
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 3: I would rather not make a film than make one

459
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: where I don't have final cut.

460
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think it might have ultimately been

461
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: the terrible purpose that he had to face, right, because

462
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: if he had not directed this film, what if someone

463
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 2: had made a far worse version of Doune Because you

464
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: read the reviews and it's like, oh, it couldn't have

465
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: been worse. Oh it could have been worse. Oh yeah, oh,

466
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: there were undoubtedly worse options out there. So yeah, we

467
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: would just been on an entirely different trajectory with science

468
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: fiction and with adaptations of Doom.

469
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean, I think I would have a

470
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 3: hard time disagreeing with somebody who said that this movie

471
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 3: in a sense fails to be a great adaptation of

472
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 3: the novel Dune. That there's a lot of things about

473
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: the book that it kind of misses, other things that

474
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 3: it does get in there, but it just kind of

475
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 3: like crams in in a way that doesn't really work.

476
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 3: But there is a lot to love about it, and

477
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: a lot of what there is to love about it

478
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 3: is just like the way it is realized as a

479
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 3: kind of David Lynch vision. There's so much like weirdness,

480
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: even things that are not in the books at all

481
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: that are just brought in that make it a very

482
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: enjoyable movie experience, at least for me, maybe not so

483
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 3: much for critics at the time. But one of the

484
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 3: other things I wanted to mention about Lynch's terrible experience

485
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: with the version of this movie that was released. Despite

486
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: his extreme dissatisfaction with how Dune turned out, doing this movie,

487
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: from what I've read, sort of set Lynch up to

488
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 3: be able to make the kinds of movies and TV

489
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: that he would go on to create later, the kinds

490
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: of things that he's celebrated for now. And I think

491
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 3: he is also personally more proud of things like Twin

492
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: Peaks and Mulholland Drive and all that. So I think

493
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: it's very interesting. Like I strongly sympathize with Lynch's point

494
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 3: of view about Dune. It is terrible to in one sense,

495
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 3: be like a primary creator of a collaborative piece of

496
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 3: art and have it come out in a way that

497
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 3: you feel is fundamentally not your vision and something you

498
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: are not proud of. But also going through that experience

499
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 3: of artistic disaster did perhaps make these other later projects

500
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: possible for him?

501
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, It's really difficult to imagine where David Lynch's

502
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 2: career would have gone had he not taken Doune, you know,

503
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: like outside of where Dune and science fiction would have gone,

504
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 2: Like what would his career have consisted of, What would

505
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: have what would his next project have been and or

506
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: what like if he had not taken Dune on it

507
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: is the big I don't know, arguably sell out project

508
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: before moving on with the rest of his career. What

509
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: would it have been? You know, what were some of

510
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: the other what have you taken Return of the Jedi instead?

511
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: What kind of world will we live in the day out?

512
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: As far as Star Wars and as far as David

513
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: Lynch are concerned.

514
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 3: That's I'm not saying Return of the Jedi would have

515
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: been better under his direction. I don't know, but I

516
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 3: would like to see that movie man Ewoks.

517
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: How weird were those eoks?

518
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: If then talking backwards e woks walking backwards e woks.

519
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: So anyway, so you asked me to, yeah, kind of

520
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: fill in more thoughts about the texture of David lynch movies,

521
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: And I wanted to start off by characterizing my relationship

522
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: with David Lynch's work by contrast. So there are a

523
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: lot of movies, you know, big example that comes to

524
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 3: mind today, or like the superhero movies that I watch

525
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 3: on airplanes, that field designed to me to be as

526
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: frictionless and entertainment experience as possible. So they are pleasant

527
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: and enjoyable for the time I'm watching them. I don't

528
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 3: hate them. They're you know, O, They're fun. There's nothing

529
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 3: to really jar or unsettle the viewer, nothing to cause

530
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 3: doubts or reflection or make you wonder why am I

531
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: seeing this? It all just kind of it all flows,

532
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 3: it makes sense, It goes down smooth, and then I

533
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 3: forget about it and possibly never think about it again.

534
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: My history of experiences with David Lynch movies are exactly

535
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: the opposite. Frequently I have had the experience of watching

536
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: a movie by David Lynch finding something full of strange

537
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: and disturbing imagery that made me feel uneasy and to

538
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 3: quote the Reverend Mother, profoundly stirred. Initially deciding after the

539
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: movie's over that I did not like it, but then

540
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: thinking about elements of it over and over in the

541
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: months or years that followed, until I felt like I

542
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: had to go back and see it again, and then

543
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: when I did, finally deciding that I loved it. So

544
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: David Lynch movies are full of scenes, scenes and images

545
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: that do not go down smooth. They do not flow

546
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: with the logic of standard entertainment storytelling. To use like

547
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: a musical analogy, there are a lot of motifs that

548
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: use notes from out of the song's key, and yet

549
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: they they end up producing something that is very memorable

550
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: and feels very true and revealing almost kind of ancient.

551
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: A metaphor I've thought of before is that I feel

552
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: like when I'm watching a David Lynch movie, it's like

553
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 3: somebody is showing me a film of a bad dream

554
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: I had twenty years ago. And completely forgot about, and

555
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: now it is only vaguely familiar in a way that

556
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: makes me uncomfortable because, like I realize somebody put a

557
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 3: movie camera in my subconscious. It's a really powerful artistic

558
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: sensibility that can create a feeling like that that like

559
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: I'm seeing something that is at the same time very

560
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: strange and disturbing but also very familiar in a way

561
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: that's hard to identify.

562
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it.

563
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: There's a particular scene in Mulhall and Drive like this,

564
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to spoil it, but anyone who's

565
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: seen it probably knows, like which kind of like terrifying

566
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: moment I'm talking about.

567
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I think I know. Well, there's like

568
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: one sudden, absolutely terrifying moment in the movie. But there's

569
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: a lot in the movie. In that movie that's just

570
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: very meaningfully ominous, you know, conversations people have that almost

571
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: kind of like remind you of something. It's like, what

572
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: are they talking about? This? This connects to something, but

573
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: it's hard to put it together. Yeah, So I wanted

574
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: to run through some themes that come up a lot

575
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: in David Lynch movies. Because specifically in the context of Doune,

576
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: Dune is often considered an outlier in Lynch's filmography. It's

577
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: not like the rest of his work, and of course

578
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: he didn't write the original underlying story. But I was

579
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: trying to think if any of these favorite themes of

580
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: his are in any way hinted at in Dune through

581
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: his interpretation of the narrative. I'm not sure if any

582
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: of them are, but we'll see. So things that come

583
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: up in a lot of Lynch movies, people in places

584
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: that seem wholesome and clean on the surface but hide

585
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: horrible secrets.

586
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, maybe not so much with this film.

587
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't really seem all that wholesome on the surface, doesn't.

588
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: No, No, most the unwholesome characters are unwholesome on the

589
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: surface by definition, like intensely so, as we'll discuss.

590
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: Another thing is people who can't remember something important. There's

591
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: something important that happened to them, or something important they

592
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: know and they can't put it together.

593
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: I guess we see some kind of shades of that

594
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: in this, however, distantly echoed m hm.

595
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: The big one for David Lynch movies is people with

596
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 3: doubles or doppelgangers in some cases, like a character having

597
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 3: a sort of mysterious twin who is an altered reflection

598
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: of themselves. Sometimes this will be a character with a

599
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: split personality. Other times a character literally changing bodily into

600
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: another person or not knowing which person they are. Lynch

601
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: is really obsessed with doubles.

602
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: Well, you know, not so much of that in this film,

603
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: but it's this is a case where it's a shame

604
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: he didn't get to make a sequel.

605
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 3: Oh man, Yeah, wait, which plot element from the sequels

606
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: are you calling out there?

607
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean there are a couple. I mean you have

608
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: the gulas, the essentially clones specifically of Dunk and Idaho,

609
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: and then you also have the face dancers. So you

610
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: have a few different possibilities there where he could have

611
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: leaned into it, and certainly, given his how he weirds

612
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: up some of the already weird elements in this film,

613
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: you could imagine him having some fun with these concepts. Yeah.

614
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And from what I recall, I think I read

615
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 3: that David Lynch did love the source material, like you

616
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: read the novel or possibly multiple novels, and was like, yes,

617
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: I'm on board. I love this.

618
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never seen anything where he was he like

619
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: even retroactively trash the novel and said like I didn't

620
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: like it and I didn't want to adapt it. Like

621
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: you know, he says that they loved it. He found

622
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: things in it that exhilarated him, and I think that

623
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: shines through in his script, even if it occurs at

624
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: times in a way that are perhaps detrimental to the film.

625
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: Like you know, it inspired him. It was not something

626
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 2: where he's like, Okay, I just need to I need

627
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: to hit this because it's in the novel. It's like, No,

628
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: it gave him ideas.

629
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: M okay, other Lynchian themes, kind of reversals of reality.

630
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: This would be the kind of setting equivalent of the

631
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 3: doppelganger principle, where there will be kind of a mirror

632
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: world or a world above in a world below.

633
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not so much so. I guess you could

634
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: make an argument for Kalad and Aracus being kind of

635
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: mirror worlds in a way.

636
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 3: I can see that characters who like suddenly realize they

637
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: are responsible for something bad happening and had been oblivious

638
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: to their responsibility.

639
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not so much here, but there could have

640
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: been room for it would have been room for it

641
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: had the series continued right.

642
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: A way that David Lynch approaches violence I think is interesting.

643
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: He uses violence that is in its physical form, running

644
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 3: against the grain of cinematic conventions, so people who get

645
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: shot in a movie often look a certain way. Lynch

646
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: seems to go out of his way to make violence

647
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: look strange, kind of alien to everyday life, almost bordering

648
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: on comedic sometimes, but in a way that makes it

649
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: even more shocking and unpleasant, like showing people's bodies reacting

650
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 3: to violence in unexpected ways. I just think of one

651
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: example of from the movie Blue Velvet. There is a

652
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: bizarre and haunting image of a man who has been

653
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 3: shot in the head and apparently killed, but remains standing up,

654
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 3: kind of swaying in a daze between life and death.

655
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: I think we definitely see elements of this and doom. Yeah.

656
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: Another thing is a kind of esthetic affinity for the

657
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties running through his work. There's like a rockabillity

658
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: leave it to beaver g Golly sensibility, which of course

659
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: is always put in startling contrast to like the Warlock logic,

660
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 3: nightmare imagery, and the violence.

661
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: Well obviously not just one really, but but that Yeah,

662
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 2: I guess that is the theme of his work.

663
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I wonder if I see a

664
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: little bit of Elvis. I see a little bit of

665
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: elvisiness in doing here. They're like the Pompadour hair. We

666
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: see some of that, Like Lady Jessica's haircut feels kind

667
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: of at Elvissey. I don't know, there's some of the

668
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: outfits feel and I think I'm reaching here. I'm trying.

669
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: There's a peculiar technical thing that David Lynch does that

670
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: I think does come through in Dune. I wanted to

671
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 3: call this out. This is Lynch's use of sound design

672
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: to create a mood, and I specifically I mean not music,

673
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: though he does use music well in his movies, and

674
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:06,959
Speaker 3: we can get to the music and Dune in a minute,

675
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 3: which I think has highs and lows, but the highs

676
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: are great. Lynch specifically uses ambient sound in a way

677
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: that has a powerful effect on the feelings of the viewer,

678
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: a specifically sound missing from scenes where it should be,

679
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: or strange sounds in scenes where they should not be.

680
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: So it is an example of each. Like imagine a

681
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 3: scene at a party, which is silent and there's no

682
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: background noise in the chatter and the music and everything

683
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: is removed and it's unsettlingly silent. Or maybe imagine a

684
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: bedroom with inappropriate sounds of machinery and steam venting and

685
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 3: things like that. There's a scene I shared with you

686
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: Rob from the movie Lost Highway where Bill Pullman's at

687
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: a party. It's a famously creepy scene. Bill Pullman's at

688
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: a party and a guy, a mysterious stranger, comes up

689
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: to him and starts telling him that he actually a

690
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 3: double of him, that he's in two places at once,

691
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 3: and that he is in Bill Pullman's house at that moment.

692
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: And the way sound is manipulated in the scene, like

693
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 3: the sound of the party drops out as the two

694
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 3: of them start talking, and it it creates a really

695
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: uh focused, dreamlike effect that heightens the horror.

696
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had never I haven't seen this film in

697
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: full before, and I had not seen this this sequence,

698
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 2: but this is great. Yeah, where we have this uncle

699
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: festerized Robert Blake character with no eyebrows come up to

700
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: Bill Pullman and just start talking like the craziest stuff

701
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: to him, and and and daring it Yeah, the sound

702
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: is dropped out and become this It's become this ambient

703
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: drone that is just so creepy and creates this sense

704
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: of unreality, you know, like this is like a cross

705
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: dimensional stranger that has that is like freezing time as

706
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: they talk to you. That sort of thing.

707
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 3: That's a great way of putting it. And uh, and

708
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: I think does Lynch you any of that kind of

709
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 3: sound design technique in Dune? I think a little bit.

710
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 3: It's not as overt as it is like in Lost Highway,

711
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: but there is a little bit of it.

712
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: It reminds me a little bit of how you have

713
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: to be sort of even handed perhaps too when you're

714
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: dealing with overtly sci fi elements and then the potentially

715
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: using sci fi design or illusions. I don't know, Like

716
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: I think about like how many times current McCarthy and

717
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 2: his books will compare something mundane or western to something

718
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: arcane and mythical and you know, and bloody and hellish

719
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: and in a way that you couldn't really get away

720
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: with if you were, say, writing about something that was

721
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 2: overtly bloody, hellish or mythic and occult. Yeah.

722
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the contextual inappropriateness that makes it striking

723
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: and profound.

724
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

725
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: So, anyway, I guess we can think more as we

726
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: go along about to what extent Dune feels like a

727
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: David Lynch movie, or does feel, as some reviewers have said,

728
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 3: like an outlier that's just not like the rest of

729
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 3: his work.

730
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: All Right, We have to, of course mention the source

731
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 2: material here. It is, of course, the novel by Frank Herbert,

732
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 2: who lived nineteen twenty through nineteen eighty six, legendary American

733
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: sci fi author whose earliest short stories date back to

734
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: the mid forties and his first sci fi stories to

735
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 2: the early fifties. I believe his first novel nineteen fifty

736
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: six is The Dragon in the Sea, is a near

737
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: future submarine tale he began research on, done in nineteen

738
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: fifty nine, and following serial publication and analog magazine, it

739
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: published in nineteen sixty five after numerous rejections. This is

740
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: another one of those films. One another one of those

741
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 2: books rather that is often held up as like, oh,

742
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: look at all the rejections at God, and then it

743
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: became the most successful and influential sci fi novel of

744
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: all time.

745
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 3: Pretty much seems like almost every really great novel, people

746
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 3: initially have the reaction of, I don't know how to

747
00:39:59,440 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: market this.

748
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's because it's not going to be the

749
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: next whatever it's going to be done. And we see

750
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: that reflecting some of the films too, you know, like

751
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: even with this one, they're like, we need the next

752
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: Star Wars, bring up the Dune. Well, you know, Dune

753
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: may have inspired partially inspired Star Wars, but it's not

754
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: Star Wars. It's not going to hit the same. So

755
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: Herbert followed Dune up with numerous standalone novels two other series,

756
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: but the Dune Saga remains his most well known work.

757
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: Dune Messiah followed in sixty nine, Children of Dune in

758
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: seventy six, God Emperor of Doune in eighty one, Heretics

759
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: of Dune in eighty four, and Chapter House Dune in

760
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: eighty five. Herbert died in eighty six before he could

761
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: write the seventh and what was supposed to be the

762
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: final book in the series. His son, Brian Herbert and

763
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 2: author Kevin J. Anderson would eventually continue writing stories set

764
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: in the Dune universe, including bear version of an ending

765
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: to the original saga, and Like we Said, There have

766
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: been various attempts to adapt these books, especially the first book,

767
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: to the screen. There was Joe Droowski attempt in the

768
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 2: mid seventies. There was even an earlier early seventies attempt

769
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: that may have even had David Lean attached at one

770
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: point to direct, but I don't think that went anywhere.

771
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 2: And then when Dino de Larente's got the rights, he

772
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: was working with Ridley Scott initially and like that that

773
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: was like in pre production for a little bit before

774
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 2: Scott had to sign off. I think for like personal reasons.

775
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: I think there'd been a death in his family, but

776
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 2: also they were perhaps butting heads a little bit, weren't

777
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: like getting to where they thought they needed to creatively

778
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: on the project. Mmm.

779
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: You know, I had some notes here about what we

780
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: already talked about earlier about just the difficulty, the inherent

781
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: difficulty of adapting Dune to the screen because it's just

782
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: not written in a way that naturally translates to the screen.

783
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 3: I mean, some scenes, do you know, scenes with the

784
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: sandworms and all that, it was very cinematic, But as

785
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: we talked about earlier, so much of the book is

786
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 3: either contextual about the broader setting in the world in

787
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 3: a way that's like hard to fit into a movie

788
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 3: without a lot of heavy exposition or it's internal people's

789
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 3: internal monologues and struggles in a way that's difficult to

790
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 3: do without, you know, having these internal voice narrations which

791
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 3: don't work great in this movie. And in a way,

792
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 3: I think that really should be like that difficulty should

793
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 3: be to the credit of what these filmmakers have done

794
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: with it, that I think Lynch did a better job

795
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 3: than should have been expected. And then the new movies

796
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: are the one I've seen at least, and I from

797
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 3: what I've heard that the new one as well. Dannis

798
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 3: ville Neuve's adaptation really exceeded all my expectations in adapting this,

799
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: that they found clever ways to illustrate the world and

800
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 3: fill in a lot of this internal and contextual detail

801
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: without it just feeling like you're getting tons of narrative

802
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 3: exposition all the time.

803
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and finding smart ways to sort of narrow in

804
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: and focus on particular things, like you know, the plotting

805
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: behind the fall of House of Trades is has a

806
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: number of players in it, and Denny Vee's adaptations tend

807
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 2: to lean more on the Benajes Ritz, while Lynch's adaptation

808
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: leans more on the Spacing Guild. You know, they're both

809
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 2: players in what happens, but ultimately you have to make

810
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: some choices on the screen, And what are you going

811
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: to focus on this?

812
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 3: Actually, well, I'll save this for the uh, for when

813
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: we get into the plot. But I am curious what

814
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 3: you think of the way Lynch's movie really explains everything

815
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: right at the top.

816
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: Oh God, there's so much world create. Like he goes

817
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: ahead and mentions IX. Yeah, he's mentioning planets and factions

818
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 2: that are not going to really become important until later

819
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: on in the series, and you know, and sequels that

820
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: did not come to fruition.

821
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 3: Oh that's true. Also, I mean explains everything about the

822
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 3: conspiracy against how uh it just like leaves nothing to

823
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: be to be revealed or discovered, essentially except the old

824
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: thing I think is like who the trader in house?

825
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 3: The trades is? Everything else is like told right up top,

826
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 3: here's the conspiracy, here's what they're gonna do.

827
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, not just to the viewer, but like the characters know,

828
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: like Paul knows, He's like I figured it out.

829
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while since I've read the book.

830
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 3: But I don't remember all of that being revealed up front.

831
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 3: I remember that being a thing that you discover as

832
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 3: you go through the story.

833
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's correct. But then again, it's been

834
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 2: a couple of years since I reread Done, and you know,

835
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: it's not all the details stick with me. But again,

836
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 2: that's the joy of rereading books. You get to forget

837
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: a little bit, you come back in slightly new experience

838
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: each time. That is nice. Now we're going to hit

839
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: a few more behind the scenes individuals here. As we

840
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 2: often mention, especially on big lavish productions like this, we

841
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: can't possibly mention everybody that had a role in making

842
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: this film what it was, even major players. As with

843
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: the adaptation of Doing you have to look at the

844
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: conspirators and just focus on a few. And so I

845
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: do want to call out that cinematographer Freddie Francis worked

846
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: on this. He lived nineteen seventeen through two thousand and seven,

847
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: British director and cinematographer, with extensive credits in the horror

848
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: and sci fi genre, including sixty three's The Day of

849
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: the Triffids, sixty four's The Evil of Frankenstein, the nineteen

850
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: seventy two Tales from the Crypt movie in. One of

851
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: his later works was nineteen eighty seven's Dark Tower, replacing

852
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: Shockwaves director Ken Whiderhorn during production.

853
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: Dark Tower That's not Stephen King is no connection.

854
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 2: To Stephen King, but it does have a connection to Shockwaves,

855
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: which we covered on the show in the past. As

856
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: a cinematographer, Francis had worked with Lynch on The Elephant

857
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: Man and worked with him again later in nineteen ninety

858
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: nine on The Straight Story. Other credits include Return to Oz,

859
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 2: which we've talked about on the show, and two films

860
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: for which he won an Academy Award, nineteen sixty one

861
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 2: Sons and Lovers and nineteen nineties Glory.

862
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 3: Let me tell you something. I didn't put this together

863
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 3: until just now, but I think there is a lot

864
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 3: of shared visual genetic material between Returned to Oz and

865
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 3: David Lynch's Doone. Do you see that with the sets?

866
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 3: And there's something about the sets and the costumes and

867
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 3: the way the film looks that there's a great similarity there.

868
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean, kind of like

869
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 2: this sort of baroque weirdness. I don't know, a.

870
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: Lot of kind of gold and jade things. Yeah, very baroque.

871
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: Like you say, there is a mix of things that

872
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: look scary and things that look funny, all jumbled together.

873
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good connection. Now, again, a

874
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: lot of people went into the visuals on this film

875
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: and the effects and so forth. But I do have

876
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: to call out Carlo Rumbaldi sometimes credited just as Rumbaldi.

877
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: He has creature creator credits on this and I bet

878
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: everyone knows what creature we're talking about. We're talking about

879
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: the Guilt Navigator. Oh.

880
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 3: I thought you were going to say the Sandworm, but

881
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: here we go.

882
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: Well, you know that's right, there is the sandword. I

883
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: bet he worked on both of them. I believe. I've

884
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: read he worked on the Guild Navigator, but I bet

885
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: he was in on the Sandworm as well. Okay, so yeah.

886
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: He lived nineteen twenty five through twenty twelve, legendary effects

887
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: master who worked on films such as Planet of the Vampires,

888
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: et Alien, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and Barberella.

889
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: Oh Man. And finally we have to talk about the

890
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 2: music for David Lynch's DOUN. The score is by Toto Yep,

891
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: the American rock jazz fusion band best known for such

892
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: late seventies and early eighties hits as Africa, Hold the

893
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: Line and Rosanna Joe. Is rock jazz fusion the correct

894
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: descriptor for Toto genre. I've really struggled with this.

895
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 3: I don't know that much about Toto other than like

896
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 3: their singles and the role in the movie here. I

897
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 3: don't know how much jazz I hear. But like I

898
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: don't really know their whole discography. I would say that

899
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 3: their hit songs sound to me just more like a

900
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: rock band.

901
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard people make a case for prog rock

902
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: with Toto, and but then also I have to say,

903
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: like their biggest hit, Africa, which I did a deep,

904
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: semi deep dive I waited in a little bit into

905
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: the Toto filmography yesterday, and most of it is not

906
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 2: for me. However, Africa is an all time great like that,

907
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: Africa is a great track, and I think you could

908
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: make a case for looping Africa in with the kind

909
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: of like yacht rock kind of sound.

910
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah, it's I mean, it's very very smooth,

911
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: but it's but it's a catchy song and it has

912
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: you know people, I think people would call it out

913
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 3: for being cheesy, but it does have some transcendent melodies.

914
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great track. It is a cheesy track,

915
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: but it's a great track. I have it saved to

916
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 2: my phone in one of my playlists. So Toto formed

917
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: out of a collect and of sessions musicians, and at

918
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 2: the time of the recording of this score, the band

919
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 2: consisted of Steve Lucather, David Posh, Steve Porco, Mike Porcio,

920
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: and Jeff Porcio. Bobby Kimball, the vocalist, had I believe,

921
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 2: just left the band, and I'm not sure on the

922
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: full story there, but at any rate, at this point

923
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: Toto had achieved some of their biggest hits and they

924
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: had never scored a motion picture before, and they have

925
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: not scored a motion picture since.

926
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 3: You mentioned they were session musicians. I know Steve, however

927
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 3: you say his last name Lucather or Lukeather, whatever that is.

928
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 3: I know he worked on like a bunch of other

929
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 3: big songs from artists he would recognize, like he played

930
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 3: the guitar on beat It and.

931
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: Stuff like that. Yeah, So they did very technically proficient

932
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 2: and also obviously commercially proficient. They were a big deal

933
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 2: at the time. They're not just coming out of nowhere

934
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 2: to score Dune. And yet this is a choice that

935
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 2: has long confused me. You know, you can understand the

936
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 2: desire on Dido Dealer inis his part, Okay, we're gonna

937
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 2: take this mid sixties sci fi tale, but we want,

938
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 2: we want to hit, we want we want to connect

939
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: with modern film viewers. We want it to be a

940
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 2: mainstream crossover. And so you can understand why he might

941
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: want something similar to what he did with Flash Gordon

942
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty bringing in Queen, even though that, of course,

943
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: is the tone of that film is totally different from

944
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: what they're going after in Din.

945
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: I mean, Queen was perfect for Flash Gordon. It's like

946
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 3: it is a perfect fit. As we were saying that,

947
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 3: like the harmonized guitar sound that Brian May makes and

948
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 3: the kind of campy theatricality that Queen was already doing

949
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: on their studio albums just is Flash Gordon. It's that

950
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 3: perfect embodiment of the feeling of the film. And so yeah,

951
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: it couldn't be a better fit Toto in this movie.

952
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 3: I don't want to knock it again because there are

953
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 3: elements of the soundtrack that I think do really work well.

954
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 3: But I don't know if it fits quite the same way.

955
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like Dino even apparently wanted Conan the Barbarian to

956
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: have a rock and roll score, but Don Milios was like, like, no,

957
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: we're not doing that. This is what we're doing. And

958
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 2: you know, I think that was the correct choice.

959
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 3: Conan the Barbarian score by the Scorpions.

960
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 2: So I always kind of like assume that, like, Okay,

961
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: Dino must have forced his hand here. It's like, bring

962
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: in Toto. Toto's popular, let's have Toto score it. But

963
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 2: I was reading in an article published on The Thin

964
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: Air by Stephen Rainey titled what Happens when You Add

965
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: Toto to David Lynch that Dino actually wanted Giorgio Moroder

966
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: for the gig Rover is tremendous. He did the score

967
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 2: for The Never Ending Story, for example. According to Rainey,

968
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: it was Lynch that pushed for Toto. I'm not sure

969
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 2: exactly why. And you know, Lynch doesn't talk about Doom

970
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 2: much at all in any interviews. I've seen some members

971
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 2: of Toto discussed in some interviews, but it tends to

972
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 2: just sound like, well, things just sort of came together,

973
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 2: you know, we met and he thought we were right

974
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: for it, and that's how it came to be.

975
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: Okay, I would not have expected that.

976
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 2: We should have also point out that there is one

977
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 2: track on the score, Prophecy Theme, in which Brian Eno

978
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 2: and Daniel Lenois also contribute, and that of course is

979
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 2: a great track as well.

980
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 3: Okay, folks, I just had to like pause recording here

981
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 3: to go figure out which track that was and listen

982
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:36,959
Speaker 3: to it, and then it was like playing all these

983
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: YouTube ads at me. But anyway, great theme. Yes, I agree,

984
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 3: this is the one with the swelling synthesizer chords and

985
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 3: it's sort of the music from the hearts of space

986
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: of this film.

987
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, obviously I love that track, well love you know,

988
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 2: it's anything you know touches. It's hard to find fault with,

989
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: but I do want to stress like the whole score

990
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: is pretty solid on the whole and at times great.

991
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,479
Speaker 2: It is a legitimate film score that sometimes sounds very

992
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 2: Toto slash Africa, but otherwise it commits to tones and

993
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: tempos that are cinematically informed and cinematically appropriate. For instance,

994
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: Dune Desert Theme, that track feels very Toto in Africa

995
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: and is great in that sense. While the main title

996
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: you know, this is the Boom Boom Boom Boom is

997
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: more brooding and cinematic. It's a great track, totally fits

998
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 2: the film. My personal favorite, aside from that is Robot Fight.

999
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: This is when when Paul is training early in the film.

1000
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: It's chonky, it's scynthy, it's pulsing. The box is also nice,

1001
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: and the Floating fat Man that's the title of the

1002
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 2: track in parentheses. The Baron is a high energy synth

1003
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: organ number that I think would feel perfectly at home

1004
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 2: in virtually any Italian horror movie.

1005
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in the score,

1006
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 3: a lot that I really like. I also really like

1007
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 3: the robot fight number. That's just got some It's got

1008
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 3: some kind of percussion and it sounds sort of like

1009
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 3: woodblocks or something. Yeah, and that's a great one, the

1010
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: scene where Paul fights the stabbing robot.

1011
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: Ye.

1012
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: But there are some parts of the score that I

1013
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: think don't work quite as well. And the parts that

1014
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 3: I think don't really work as well are the ones

1015
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: the parts that sound more rock. It's it's not a

1016
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: great fit.

1017
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's at least one point late in the film

1018
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: where Fremen are writing sandworms and you get like a

1019
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: guitar lick and like it giggled a little bit. It

1020
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: was amazing, though, I'm glad. I wouldn't want it any

1021
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: other way. All in all, I'd say an effective and

1022
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: interesting score, you know, comparing it to the other films.

1023
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: You know, I have to say, I'm a huge fan

1024
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 2: of Hans Zimmer's Dune scores. I think this is probably

1025
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: his best work now that I've listened to all of

1026
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 2: Hans Zimmer's scores, because he scored some really uninteresting and

1027
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: all awful movies at times. But you know, I mean,

1028
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: but we have to acknowledge his approach is altogether different.

1029
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: It's from a different era, so you can't really compare.

1030
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: You can't compare a total score to a Zimmer score.

1031
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: They're both great in their own way.

1032
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm just looking at what Hans Zimmer has scored now.

1033
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 3: Oh he he did Twister. Yeah, there's just a lot

1034
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 3: of stuff in there. It's like I don't even want

1035
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 3: to check, Like, I doubt Twister has a great score.

1036
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's effective, I'm sure it's fine, but I'm

1037
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 3: just not gonna go listen to it.

1038
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's not.

1039
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 3: Even that Twister. It's a different Twister that is also

1040
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 3: a movie about tornadoes.

1041
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 2: Oh okay, they didn't adapt the board game or the

1042
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 2: floor game Twister the motion picture.

1043
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 3: Okay, what are we doing now? Are we gonna go

1044
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 3: start talking about the plot and introduce some actors as

1045
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 3: we go along?

1046
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 2: Yes, let us attempt to do this. Bear with us.

1047
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: We have not really done it this way before, but

1048
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 2: I think this is our best path forward. So say

1049
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: it the Guild navigators.

1050
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the movie starts with what do you want

1051
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 3: to guess? It's a sci fi movie from the eighties?

1052
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 3: What do we open with? It's a star field? Kind

1053
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 3: of an overused convention, but we start looking at the

1054
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 3: stars and then we come in on the eyes. Extreme

1055
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: close up of the eyes of Virginia Madsen playing Princess Irulan.

1056
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she is part of House Corrino. For modern

1057
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 2: fans of the more recent adaptations, she was not introduced

1058
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: as a character until Dune Part two. Virginia Madson born

1059
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty one. Oscar nominated actress for two thousand

1060
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 2: and five Sideways and this is I believe her second

1061
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 2: or third credit Dune is Sideways She was in the

1062
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three Comedy Class as well as nineteen eighty

1063
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 2: four as Electric Dreams. Her subsequent credits include ninety one's

1064
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: Highlander two The Quickening, There You Go, ninety two's Candy Man,

1065
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five's The Prophecy, The Christopher Walken Angel one

1066
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 2: that we might get to at some point, and various

1067
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 2: other TV projects.

1068
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: Robert, are we going to do Highlander two The Quickening

1069
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 3: this year?

1070
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: We should? You know, we have that older stuff to

1071
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: blow your mind episode about Highlander to the Quickening, But

1072
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't the weird house approach, right, so you know,

1073
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't really count. We could come back and do it.

1074
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 3: I think the question for that would be, is there

1075
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 3: a way now to get our hands on a copy

1076
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: of the superior bad cut of the film as opposed

1077
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 3: to the inferior improved cut of the film.

1078
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: That's true. You know, last time we watched it, we

1079
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 2: had to watch a rip of the VHS or something

1080
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 2: like that. So that's what we need to find out.

1081
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: We need to find out if we have a good

1082
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: source material here.

1083
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 3: They're trying to only make accessible the versions that take

1084
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 3: out all the good stuff and don't have you know

1085
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 3: Sean Connery waving the sword with the flashlight on him

1086
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 3: and stuff.

1087
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: Anyway, Virginia Madson, who by the way, is the sister

1088
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: of Michael Madson, perfectly fine performance here, though she doesn't

1089
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 2: get to do all that much. I should know that

1090
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: Julie Cox and Florence Pugh have also played the role,

1091
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 2: and certainly in the more recent adaptation, this character gets

1092
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: to do a little bit more and will be even

1093
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: more important in the next Dune film.

1094
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. So in this movie, because it's just an adaptation

1095
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: of the first novel, Princess Irelan's role is not huge

1096
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 3: within the plot, but it is huge within the film,

1097
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 3: just because she does so much voiceover narration, Like she

1098
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 3: explains everything about the world to us.

1099
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, she lays it on us, and she's looking right

1100
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: at us, and she's like weirdly conversational. She's like, oh,

1101
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 2: by the way, I totally forgot to mention this other thing,

1102
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 2: Like she gets into something to an important plot point.

1103
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 3: Well wait, so I feel like I should just actually

1104
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: read her opening narration so you can get a sin

1105
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 3: because I feel like you can feel everything just raining

1106
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 3: down on you. So she says, a beginning is a

1107
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 3: very delicate time. Know then that it is the year

1108
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 3: ten one hundred and ninety one. The known universe is

1109
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 3: ruled by the Padishat Emperor Shaddam the Fourth, my father

1110
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 3: in this time. The most precious substance in the universe

1111
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 3: is the spice millange. The spice extends life, The spice

1112
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 3: expands consciousness. The spice is vital to space travel. The

1113
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 3: Spacing Guild and its navigators, who the spice has mutated

1114
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,919
Speaker 3: over four thousand years, use the orange spice gas, which

1115
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 3: gives them the ability to fold space, that is, travel

1116
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: to any part of the universe without moving. Oh, yes,

1117
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 3: I forgotten to tell you. She does say that the

1118
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 3: spice exists on only one planet in the entire universe,

1119
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 3: a desolate, dry planet with vast deserts. Hidden away within

1120
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 3: the rocks of these deserts are a people known as

1121
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 3: the Fremen, who have long held a prophecy that a

1122
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 3: man would come, a messiah who would lead them to

1123
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 3: true freedom. The planet is a Racus, also known as Done. Now,

1124
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 3: this should bring us back to what we were talking

1125
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 3: about earlier. That audiences at the time quite famously complained

1126
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 3: that this movie was incomprehensible that they could not follow

1127
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: the plot. I'm at a point where I'm so familiar

1128
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: with the world and the story that I don't really

1129
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 3: trust myself to assess what this movie would be like

1130
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 3: to someone who came in cold. But just like trying

1131
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 3: to be objective and look at this opening narration in isolation.

1132
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 3: Despite it being fairly straightforward, like everything is phrased in

1133
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 3: a very clear to understand way, I think it could

1134
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 3: still even newcomer feeling kind of overwhelmed because it's just

1135
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 3: piling so much on you before any of it means anything.

1136
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 3: I think a better way to develop this sort of

1137
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 3: thing is to give you a little bit of exposition

1138
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 3: and then show you some story to allow that exposition

1139
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 3: to kind of like materialize and be connected to characters

1140
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 3: that you care about. And then once you have characters

1141
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 3: that you care about, you can start learning more about

1142
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 3: the premise and the setting and all that, and at

1143
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 3: that point it'll feel like it's meaningful. With just all

1144
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 3: this opening narration, we haven't even met anybody else. It

1145
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 3: just kind of washes over you, and I think you

1146
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 3: would probably forget a lot of it.

1147
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's also fascinating everything, you know, springing

1148
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 2: off of everything you just said, like the intro itself

1149
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 2: begins with a beginning, is a very delicate time, and

1150
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, you can't help but think about that in

1151
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: terms of the storytelling, like this is a delicate point

1152
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 2: in the movie. We are easing you into a complex,

1153
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: rich universe, and we have to give you some information,

1154
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 2: but we don't want to give you too much information.

1155
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 2: And therefore, yeah, it is very delicate. It's a very

1156
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 2: delicate point. I mean, it makes sense that Princess Iroline

1157
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,439
Speaker 2: would be the one telling us this because she's it's

1158
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: her historical writings that often preface various Dune chapters in

1159
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: the novel. And you know, it's probably the better choice

1160
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 2: as opposed to the extended prologue that I imagine was cut

1161
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 2: and then ends up reappearing on those disavowed extended TV

1162
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 2: versions where you have a bunch of like production stills

1163
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: of various factions and characters and then a lot of

1164
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 2: additional narration about the different factions. But that prologue is

1165
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: still pretty fun. You can find it on YouTube and stuff,

1166
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 2: and also I'm sure in DVD extras it's amazing.

1167
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't seen that. I would like to. I'd

1168
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 3: like to see what they could have done with it.

1169
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 3: Another thing you pointed out is that she gets conversational

1170
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 3: in this, but I think there is a strange mix

1171
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 3: of tones. So, like one sentence in this opening narration

1172
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 3: is know then that it is the year ten thousand

1173
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: and one ninety one. That's almost like a biblical kind

1174
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 3: of phrasing, know then that it is. But then she

1175
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: also says, oh, yes, I forgot to tell you. It's

1176
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 3: like the voice doesn't feel very consistent.

1177
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ultimately a weird start to a weird film.

1178
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 3: So the title and credits play out over images of

1179
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 3: wind sweeping sand from the dunes of the Lifeless Desert.

1180
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 3: We get that heavy brooding dune theme, bomb bomb, b bomb.

1181
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's very it's very dark, and you know

1182
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 3: it feels like bad things are coming. Then we get

1183
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 3: more Narration's straight into more of an unknown voice talking

1184
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 3: to you. I think this is a member of the

1185
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 3: Spacing Guild.

1186
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 2: We see the Spacing Guild logo I think in this sequence,

1187
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 2: which which is great. Yeah, it's like the three planetary

1188
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: spheres connected by a line, like a horizontal line. It's great.

1189
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 2: I don't think I'd ever really paid much attention before,

1190
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 2: but now I love it.

1191
01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 3: So this narrator says a secret report within the Guild.

1192
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 3: Four planets have come to our attention regarding a plot

1193
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 3: which could jeopardize spice production. Planet Aracus, source of the spice.

1194
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 3: Planet Calidan, home of Housitreides, Planet gide Prime, home of

1195
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 3: House Harkonen. Planet Katon, home of the Emperor of the

1196
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 3: known Universe. Send a third stage Guild navigator to Katon

1197
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 3: to demand details from the Emperor. The spice must flow.

1198
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 3: So hitting you again with like a lot of factions

1199
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 3: and stuff before we've met a single person. Yeah, anyway,

1200
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,919
Speaker 3: we see a giant ship landing on the surface of

1201
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 3: Katon in front of a kind of industrial palace in

1202
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 3: the night. Katon appears to be very urbanized planet, with

1203
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 3: brightly lit city skylines in the background. This, I guess

1204
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 3: is sort of the Imperial capital planet, and strange figures

1205
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 3: are seen disembarking from the ship. We see pale skin,

1206
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 3: bald heads, some people in full environment suits, all in

1207
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 3: shiny black clothing that seems somewhere between a monk's robe

1208
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: and like a hazmat barrier.

1209
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, everything is very industrial slash regal, you know,

1210
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: in a very fitting way, you know, and in the

1211
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 2: members of the Guild that even we've seen so far

1212
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 2: have a very sickly pallor you know, and they're kind

1213
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: of like oozing in places and so forth. This idea

1214
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: that you know, they're you know, rightfully spice junkies to

1215
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 2: some extent, and or the rigors of spice use and

1216
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 2: or interplanetary interstellar travel have taken a toll on their bodies.

1217
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 3: One thing I really like about the design of this movie,

1218
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 3: and I think to some extent this is carried over

1219
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 3: even into Dnevilneuve's adaptation, is the like the costume designs

1220
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 3: and stuff that peer to mix influences of industrial technology

1221
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 3: and influences of like high church and religion. A lot

1222
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 3: of characters and the ways they're dressed and their environments

1223
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 3: look like a cross between you know, like monks and

1224
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 3: priests and cathedrals of the Middle Ages and also people

1225
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 3: working in a factory that produces hazardous chemicals.

1226
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an esthetic that fans of Warhammer forty

1227
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 2: thousand are very familiar with, and I think you can

1228
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 2: rightfully wonder to what extent that aesthetic would be present

1229
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 2: in Warhammer forty thousand without this adaptation with Dune, and

1230
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 2: I think you can rightfully wonder if Warhammer forty thousand

1231
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 2: would exist at all in any recognizable form if it

1232
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: had not been for the influence of Dune itself.

1233
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 3: So we see inside the Emperor's palace next, where everything

1234
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 3: is green and gold, with these pale, milky jade floors

1235
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 3: and gold walls with columns bearing a kind of texture

1236
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 3: that looks like perforated wasp nest. You know, it has

1237
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 3: these tubes and columns, And so we see courtiers milling

1238
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 3: about everywhere, also dressed in black. So the women in

1239
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 3: the palace are dressed like mourners, and black dresses and

1240
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: black veils, old men in black military uniforms, Imperial dog

1241
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 3: walkers leading packs of bulldogs around. Most of the courtiers

1242
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 3: leave the throne room as the Guild Navigator approaches, and

1243
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 3: we see the Emperor conferring anxiously with an adviser, a

1244
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 3: woman named Reverend Mother Gaias Helen Moheum, and he tells

1245
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 3: her that he wishes her to read the Guild Navigator's

1246
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 3: mind and present a report. After she leaves then she

1247
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 3: professes loyalty to the Emperor and says that she is

1248
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 3: his truth sayer. Now, this will be the first of

1249
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 3: many characters introduced to have some level of psychic power.

1250
01:07:55,920 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 3: Some characters in Dune have psychic clairvoyance, like kind of

1251
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: foreknowledge and ability to engage in remote viewing and see

1252
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 3: what's happening elsewhere or to see into the future. Other

1253
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 3: characters have the ability to read people's minds, and it's

1254
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 3: kind of like this to some extent in the book

1255
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 3: as well. These various types of psychic powers are present,

1256
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 3: though I do kind of sympathize with some critics at

1257
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 3: the time when this came out, said, like, a lot

1258
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 3: of characters in this movie are psychic. I wish we

1259
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 3: were psychic so we could understand the plot. You know,

1260
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 3: that's kind of an maybe an unfair job, But I

1261
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 3: do see a point they're making that, like who has

1262
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 3: what psychic powers and why is not exactly clear, and

1263
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 3: so you don't know what kinds of knowledge different characters

1264
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 3: have access to. If that makes sense.

1265
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like this is this adaptation is very concerned

1266
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 2: with you knowing what breeds of dogs are important to

1267
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 2: which houses. Maybe it's a little shakier on who has

1268
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 2: what form of psychic power?

1269
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, so she's there the job.

1270
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 2: We should talk about these two actors though, Oh oh.

1271
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 3: Wait, I'm sorry. Yes, the Emperor and the Reverend Mother

1272
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 3: both both I think great performances in both cases.

1273
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so as the Patashah Emperor Shaddam. The fourth

1274
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,719
Speaker 2: we have Jose Ferrer, who lived nineteen twelve through nineteen

1275
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: ninety two, Puerto Rican actor and film director, best known

1276
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 2: for such films as nineteen fifty Cirino de Bergeract, a

1277
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 2: film for which he was the first Hispanic actor to

1278
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 2: win an Academy Award. He was also in fifty fours

1279
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 2: The Kinge Mutiny. But his filmography, like a lot of folks,

1280
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,799
Speaker 2: ultimately includes everything you know across the spectrum, from nineteen

1281
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: sixty two's Lawrence of Arabia to nineteen seventy seven's The

1282
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 2: Sentinel and Zoltan Hound of Dracula aka Dracula's Dog.

1283
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 3: Oh boy, I'd like Jose Ferrer's approach to this role,

1284
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 3: which is kind of unassuming, like he plays this character

1285
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 3: in a different way than you might expect. You might

1286
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 3: expect the Emperor to have a more imposing presence and

1287
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 3: to be more, to be more dominant and commanding. But

1288
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 3: instead he plays this character like a careful politician, someone

1289
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 3: who is who is clever and circumspect and trying to

1290
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 3: carefully manage his relationships and allegiances.

1291
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good read. There are a

1292
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 2: few scenes where I feel like he comes up a

1293
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 2: little bit befuddled. Yeah, I'm not sure to what extent

1294
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 2: that was intended, or if it's like I don't know

1295
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 2: what these lines mean, but I would imagine it's it's

1296
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 2: more on the intended scale. Because, Yeah, this Farrer was

1297
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:40,759
Speaker 2: a great actor. We've talked about his son, Miguel Ferrera

1298
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 2: before because he was of course in RoboCop and he

1299
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 2: was the uncle of George Cliney.

1300
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 3: M Miguel Ferrera was great at in a lot of

1301
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 3: eighties movies, just like playing jerks.

1302
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, real quick, I will mention that this is

1303
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 2: a character that has also been played by John Carlo

1304
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 2: Janini that was the mini series, and more recently by

1305
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 2: Christopher Walkin in Denny Vee's adaptations. I need to see

1306
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 2: doing part two and once more before I fully make

1307
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 2: up my mind on Christopher Walkin's performance.

1308
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 3: Okay, all right.

1309
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: In the other character, Reverend Mother Guy Helen Mohayam is

1310
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,759
Speaker 2: played by Sean Phillips born nineteen thirty three. So again

1311
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:27,680
Speaker 2: not a member of House Krino, but she is the

1312
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 2: Emperor's truth sayer. She is a member of the benigestri

1313
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 2: At order. We've talked about Phillips before because she played

1314
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 2: Cassiopeia in nineteen eighty one's Clash of the Titans and

1315
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 2: she played the Knight Witch Chaal in Ewok's The Battle

1316
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:41,639
Speaker 2: for indoor Ah.

1317
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 3: I forgot about those connections, but she is wonderful in

1318
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 3: this role. This is another character who you know, kind

1319
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 3: of liked the emperor in both cases. At first is

1320
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 3: shown to be a you know, just a character of

1321
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 3: kind of mystery and power. You're wondering, like what is

1322
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 3: their power and what are they trying to do, but

1323
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 3: ultimately is revealed to kind of be a politician, like

1324
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:09,840
Speaker 3: she's managing relationships between different factions. She's trying to keep

1325
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 3: the balance of power and keep her plans on track.

1326
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 3: And I think she does a great job with this role.

1327
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The benages Rates are masterful politicians and

1328
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: masterful manipulators, and I think that comes out more in

1329
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 2: the recent adaptations than it does here, perhaps, but because again,

1330
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 2: you know, one film focuses more on the on the

1331
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 2: Guild and the other films focus more on the benagest rates.

1332
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 2: But I have to say, as far as just Sean

1333
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 2: Phillips's presence and her and interact and go, I always

1334
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 2: loved her in this role. Her costuming and hairstyling is

1335
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 2: just absolutely on point, and she brings just wonderful energy

1336
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 2: to the role. I'm hard pressed to pick a favorite

1337
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:57,799
Speaker 2: Reverend Mother here across the various adaptations, because Charlotte Rampling

1338
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 2: is also great in recent films. Oh yes, yes, all right,

1339
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 2: let's dive back into the scene. Okay, so we have

1340
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 2: here the Emperor and the Reverend Mother, and then the

1341
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 2: giant golden doors to the Emperor's throne room peel apart

1342
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 2: into recesses, and here comes the Guild Navigator. But at

1343
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 2: first we do not see the Guild Navigator in bodily form.

1344
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 2: We just see a giant black cylinder venting out these

1345
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 2: blasts of steam. It looks like a solid iron locomotive

1346
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 2: rolling along the floor, approaching the throne, flanked by all

1347
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 2: these weird monks in black, and I love this approach.

1348
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 2: It's just like, what is this object? Yeah, the absolute

1349
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 2: weirdness and grandeur of this sequence cannot be overstated. While

1350
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:52,440
Speaker 2: we never meet a guild navigator or a guild steersman

1351
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 2: in the first Doune novel, they do become important later

1352
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 2: on and become There's an important character that is a

1353
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 2: guild navigator in Dune Messiah. But this sequence in this

1354
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 2: film does a great job of just setting the bizarre

1355
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 2: tone for the rest of the film, you know, intrigue,

1356
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 2: baroque splendor, grotesqueness, and a lingering sense of confusion. So

1357
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 2: I absolutely love it.

1358
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 3: So as you say this scene is not in the

1359
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 3: first novel, I mean, we never meet this weird character

1360
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 3: in the first novel. We're about to explain how weird

1361
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 3: he looks. So this is like purely a I guess

1362
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 3: I don't know for sure whose choice it was, but

1363
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 3: it seems like a David Lynch choice to just make

1364
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 3: this movie much weirder than it had to be.

1365
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 2: Right at the beginning, Yeah, because to be clear, the

1366
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 2: new adaptations have no guild navigators. And then we briefly

1367
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 2: see the spacing guild in Dune part one, but we

1368
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 2: certainly never see a Guild Navigator.

1369
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 3: So so, yeah, these monks approach like one with this

1370
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 3: giant black you know train. Essentially, one of the monks

1371
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 3: picks up a weird looking microphone that starts speaking into

1372
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 3: it with this inhuman language and it translates to the

1373
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 3: Beni Jesert. Witch must leave, so the Emperor bids her leave.

1374
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 3: The Reverend Mother has to go to the other room.

1375
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 3: She does. When they are alone with the Emperor, wheels

1376
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 3: begin to turn on the front of the locomotive and

1377
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 3: metal doors are unlocking, and then the dark panels on

1378
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 3: the front of this huge object spread apart, and they

1379
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 3: reveal inside a giant tank, almost like a fish tank,

1380
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 3: but it is filled with orange smoke, occupied by a

1381
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 3: gigantic octopus like creature. And this is the Guild Navigator.

1382
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 3: It's someone who I think the lore is that this

1383
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 3: is somebody who is once human in form but was

1384
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 3: mutated through it through their extreme use of the spice millage.

1385
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, essentially, And in the novels they're kind of described

1386
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 2: more as like taking the form ultimately like a fish

1387
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 2: man like that. That's the form that they have mutated into.

1388
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 2: In this they go into more almost kind of like

1389
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:12,799
Speaker 2: embryonic direction. The creature is stranger, even stranger to behold,

1390
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 2: and it is it is glorious. Is it is an

1391
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 2: unforgettable visual aspect of the pope motion picture. And it's

1392
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 2: just again brilliantly weird and sets the tone for the

1393
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:23,759
Speaker 2: whole picture.

1394
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 3: So, speaking to the Emperor, the guild navigator says, we

1395
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 3: have just folded space from IX, and the Emperor says yes,

1396
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,879
Speaker 3: And the guild Navigator explains that it has psychically sensed

1397
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 3: a plan unfolding in fact, not just a plan, but

1398
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 3: plans within plans. It suggests that it foresees a war

1399
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 3: between two great houses house Atriades and how Sarconin, and

1400
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:53,600
Speaker 3: it asks if this is according to a plan of

1401
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 3: the Emperor's doing, and the Emperor admits that it is so.

1402
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 3: The Emperor says, the Atriodes House is building a secret

1403
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 3: army using a technique unknown to us, a technique involving sound.

1404
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 3: The Duke is becoming more popular in the lands Rod.

1405
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 3: He could threaten me. I think the LANs Rod is

1406
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 3: the the parliament of this universe. Essentially, he could threaten me.

1407
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 3: I have ordered Hou Satrades to occupy Aracus to mine

1408
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 3: the spice, thus replacing their enemies. The Harconans house Atrides

1409
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 3: will not refuse because of the tremendous power they think

1410
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:34,080
Speaker 3: they will gain. Then, at an appointed time, Baron Harconan

1411
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 3: will return to Iracus and launch a sneak attack on

1412
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 3: hou Satraides. I have promised the Baron five legions of

1413
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 3: my Sardekar terror troops. So once again, we alluded to

1414
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 3: this earlier, but they just lay out the whole plot

1415
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:52,480
Speaker 3: right there. I don't know what I think about that choice.

1416
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 3: On one hand, it might make the story easier to

1417
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 3: follow if you're not already familiar with it. On the

1418
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 3: other hand, it does kind of like spoil some of

1419
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 3: the surprise because this is exactly what happens. It just

1420
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 3: lays it all out there. Yeah, anyway, The Guild Navigator

1421
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 3: seems okay with this, but it says that through its clairvoyance,

1422
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 3: it perceives that this plan may be complicated by paul Atreadees,

1423
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 3: the son of Duke Leto Atradees, and the Guild Navigator says,

1424
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 3: I want paul A Trades killed. I did not say this,

1425
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 3: I was not here.

1426
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 2: I love this moment.

1427
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then the Guild Navigator like retreats and the

1428
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 3: space monks scurry along with it, like running vacuum cleaners

1429
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 3: over the floor, which is a laugh out loud moment,

1430
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 3: but it's I'd love that detail. I don't know what

1431
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 3: it means, but it's really good.

1432
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 2: Was were they I'm not I'm unsure on exactly what's

1433
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 2: happening here either, but did they like slide the guild

1434
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 2: navigator enclosure out on like a thin layer of oil

1435
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 2: or slime, I don't know, and then retreat on it

1436
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 2: and they've got to like clean it a little bit.

1437
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 2: It's it's it's wondrous. It's wondrous. Yeah.

1438
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 3: So Emperor Shadam is left wondering what the Spacing Guild.

1439
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 3: Why would the Spacing Guild be so afraid of Duke

1440
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 3: Letto's son, He's just a boy. Meanwhile, in the other room,

1441
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 3: the Reverend Mother has been conducting psychic surveillance on the meeting.

1442
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 3: She knows what has been asked, and she goes back

1443
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 3: to a group of her benijesa At sisters and says

1444
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 3: they must examine paul Atreides, they must understand his significance,

1445
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 3: and you know, what we're looking at time here, And

1446
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 3: as we predicted at the beginning, if we tried to

1447
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 3: do this all in one episode, it would be like

1448
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 3: a three to four hour episode of Weird House. So

1449
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 3: I think what we're going to have to do is

1450
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 3: divide it here. We'll leave you hanging with this prologue

1451
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 3: that is mostly not from the novel Dune itself, and

1452
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 3: then next time we're going to come back and discuss

1453
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:48,759
Speaker 3: more of the rest of the plot of Dune nineteen

1454
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 3: eighty four, more of the cast, and maybe have some

1455
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,600
Speaker 3: retrospective thoughts once we get to the end of the

1456
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 3: plot about I don't know how the movie relates to

1457
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,040
Speaker 3: the source material, how it fits in to David Lynch's

1458
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 3: filmography and things like that.

1459
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:05,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we'll wrap it up in the next episode

1460
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 2: of Weird House Cinema. And who knows in the future,

1461
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 2: if we do a Weird House rewind of this episode,

1462
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 2: maybe we'll cobble it all together into one big director's cut.

1463
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:16,880
Speaker 3: We'll see just an unmanageable chunk.

1464
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, just drop directly onto your phone. Yeah all right, Well,

1465
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to continue to continuing the discussion, continuing

1466
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,760
Speaker 2: our journey through David Lynch's Dune in the meantime will

1467
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:33,080
Speaker 2: remind you that here un stuff to blow your mind

1468
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 2: and stuff to blow your mind. Feed. We're primarily a

1469
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:38,720
Speaker 2: science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. That

1470
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 2: doesn't mean we haven't done core episodes about Dune. If

1471
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 2: you go into our back catalog, you will find we

1472
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 2: did some episodes on the science of Dune, on the

1473
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 2: philosophy of Dune. Have a few short form episodes here

1474
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 2: and there that deal with things from Dune. I did

1475
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 2: one monster fact. These are on Wednesdays about donkeys of

1476
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 2: Dune because nobody ever adapts the donkeys of the planet

1477
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 2: or but in the books it is clear that the

1478
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 2: that there are donkeys on this planet, and they are used,

1479
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 2: and they do wear a modified still suit. Oh boy, yeah,

1480
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:12,840
Speaker 2: the books, the book books have so much weirdness in them.

1481
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:17,640
Speaker 2: It's suited one of your donkeys. Let's see Mondays we

1482
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:19,720
Speaker 2: do listener mails, and yes, indeed, on Fridays we set

1483
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

1484
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema. If you want to see

1485
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:25,720
Speaker 2: a list of all the movies we've covered thus far,

1486
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 2: in Weird House Cinema and sometimes get a glimpse at

1487
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,439
Speaker 2: what's coming next. Go to letterbox dot com. It's l

1488
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 2: E T T E R B O x D dot com.

1489
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 2: It's a fun side overall for you know, chronicling movies,

1490
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 2: seeing you know what the different different connections are between

1491
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 2: different productions. But we are on there as weird House,

1492
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 2: that's our user name, and we have a list and

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01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:46,400
Speaker 2: you can look at all the things we've covered thus far,

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01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 2: and you can throw on different filters to see, like, Okay,

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01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 2: which movies from the fifties did we do? Which movies? Uh,

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01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 2: which sci fi movies did we do? Which fantasy movies?

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01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 2: And so forth. It's a lot of fun.

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01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:00,719
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audi your producer

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01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch

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01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

1501
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

1502
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,799
Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

1503
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com.

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01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1505
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.