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Speaker 1: com slash bank Capital one NA member FDIC. Hi everyone,

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Couric and this is next question. Hi everybody, welcome.

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Speaker 1: Once again, it's Katie plus one and I'm so thrilled

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Speaker 1: with my date today. This time it's Kelly Corrigan. She's

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Speaker 1: an author journalist. She's the host of the podcast Kelly

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Speaker 1: Corrigan Wonders. She has written four New York Times bestselling

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Speaker 1: memoirs in the last decade, earning her the title of

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Speaker 1: the Poet Laureate of the Ordinary from the Huffington Post

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Speaker 1: and the Voice of a Generation from Oh Magazine.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Kelly Yeah. She's worked in nonprofits for ten years. That

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Speaker 1: decade created her worldview, which goes people are struggling, make

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Speaker 1: yourself useful. She paints almost every day in her garage,

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Speaker 1: often in her pj's like a crazy person, but a

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Speaker 1: happy crazy person, and that's what's working, so she keeps

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Speaker 1: doing it. Kelly, thank you for being my plus one

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Speaker 1: on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm so happy to be with you the last

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Speaker 2: time you were my interview subject on the PBS Show.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And I actually should have mentioned

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Speaker 1: the PBS Show, which is wonderful as well. And Kelly,

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Speaker 1: I think you do have this every woman wisdom that

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Speaker 1: people just gravitate to, and so that's why I thought

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Speaker 1: you'd be the perfect partner for me to talk with

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Speaker 1: David Brooks, who I have long admired, You've long admired.

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Speaker 1: But before we open up the conversation and let David in,

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Speaker 1: let's just talk very briefly about how we know each other,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of a fun story because it dates

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Speaker 1: back to the Today's Show. Can you tell everyone how

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Speaker 1: we first connected.

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Speaker 2: It's two thousand and four. I had just finished a

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Speaker 2: year of cancer treatment. My hair was just starting to

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Speaker 2: grow back. I was thirty seven, two little kids, and

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Speaker 2: my dad had cancer at the same time I did.

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Speaker 2: And it was the first day of Breast cancer Awareness Month.

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Speaker 2: So the Today Show always does a big, full coverage

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Speaker 2: of that topic, and so I was invited to come

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Speaker 2: on with my dad. And it was so funny, Katie,

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Speaker 2: because we were in the green room and we're all

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Speaker 2: made up and fancy and I and my dad's a

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Speaker 2: big character, like he really lets it rip. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know that, this is like keep it,

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Speaker 2: keep it in the pocket at first, like let's just

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Speaker 2: try to like, you know, play it.

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Speaker 3: Tighten it up down, Yeah, tighten it up, brother.

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Speaker 2: And we get out there and you came right across

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Speaker 2: the room like it was your home like that. That

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Speaker 2: was my immediate sense was like, Oh, you're going to

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Speaker 2: take care of us, like you're welcoming us into your space.

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Speaker 2: You came all the way across the studio. You didn't

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Speaker 2: sit in your chair and look at the teleprompter and

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Speaker 2: get ready. You came to us, which I just thought

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Speaker 2: was really lovely and doesn't always happen. And you said Hi,

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Speaker 2: I'm Katie, and I was like, Hi, I'm Kelly. This

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Speaker 2: is my dad, George. And my dad instantly said, Katie,

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Speaker 2: my son went to Washington and Lee, which is where

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Speaker 2: your husband, your first husband went, And he said, right,

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Speaker 2: and he played for coach so and so, and you said,

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Speaker 2: I don't think my husband really, I don't think Jay

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Speaker 2: really liked him. And my father Zach Emmer right, and

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Speaker 2: my father said, oh, he's a dick. And I was

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Speaker 2: like Oh my god, Dad, this is exactly what I

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Speaker 2: told you not to do, like we're keeping it in

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Speaker 2: the pocket.

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Speaker 3: And then we walked out.

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Speaker 2: You'd laughed so hard, and we walked over and sat

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Speaker 2: on the little sofa. And then you know, when you

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Speaker 2: go on the Today Show, like they try to get

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Speaker 2: it organized for you in advance, where they give you

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Speaker 2: the questions and you practice answering them, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they give you a little window of content. And the

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Speaker 2: very first question you went off script, and I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: this is so cool, Like she's just going to talk

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Speaker 2: to us because you know so much like to me.

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Speaker 2: I was like, it would be so rude of me

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Speaker 2: to be nervous right now because I'm talking to someone

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Speaker 2: who has lost two people, You're two dearest people to cancer,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm just going to talk to you like

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Speaker 2: I would if there were no cameras, because heart to heart,

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Speaker 2: there aren't any cameras, like this is my story, this

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Speaker 2: is your story, this my dad's story, like and it

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Speaker 2: was so wonderful, and I think we were on for

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Speaker 2: like seven minutes or something like I remember after it

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Speaker 2: was over all my cousins were like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: that was insane.

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Speaker 1: Uh, and you were brilliant, and I think you know,

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Speaker 1: your voice maybe emerged that day and led to so

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Speaker 1: many other wonderful opportunities because of your honesty and your heart.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like I was there when it all started.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're doing well and are in good health,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so proud of what an important person you've

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Speaker 1: become in the world. So many people, Kelly, Honestly, it's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful thing to witness. Okay, Kelly, Before we go

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Speaker 1: on and on, because it's a mutual admiration society, here,

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Speaker 1: let's bring in David Brooks to talk about his new book,

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Speaker 1: How to Know a Person, The Art of Seeing Others

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Speaker 1: Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. David Brooks, Welcome, Kelly, and

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Speaker 1: I both welcome you to the podcast.

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Speaker 4: This is a double barrel of fun and willing and

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Speaker 4: able look out.

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Speaker 3: Mister.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk to you about this, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's something that interests Kelly a great deal too. Kelly,

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Speaker 1: when you heard about David's book, How to Know a Person,

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Speaker 1: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply, Being Deeply Seen, what

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Speaker 1: interested you about it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm a little bit curious about David's journey, because

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Speaker 2: I once heard him say that in his house the

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Speaker 2: ethos was think Yiddish, act British, and that I know

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Speaker 2: you to be, you know, a journalist of the highest order,

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Speaker 2: and a specific kind of journalist, which is to say,

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Speaker 2: not like Katie, whose job it is to ask questions,

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Speaker 2: but rather someone who's supposed to summon an opinion and

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Speaker 2: present it, which is sort of the opposite of what

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Speaker 2: you're asking people to do in this book. So that

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Speaker 2: my deepest curiosity was how funny that you should come

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Speaker 2: to this urgent message after a somewhat aloof life where

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Speaker 2: you could be in a cerebral space nine days out

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Speaker 2: of ten and not really have to operate on this level.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and thought about that way. But my whole life

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Speaker 4: has been a journey to being more like Katie. And

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Speaker 4: I'm totally cool with that.

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Speaker 3: By the way, It's not a bad trajectory.

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Speaker 4: Right, because I grew up, as you say, in a

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Speaker 4: super intellectual world with my family, my answer professors, and

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Speaker 4: then when I got to be eighteen, the admissions officers

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Speaker 4: at Columbia, Wesleyan, and Brown decided should go to the

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Speaker 4: University of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: I laughed, at that, Lie David also.

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Speaker 4: A super heavy place, and I fit right in.

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Speaker 2: My joke is our fun goes to die right right.

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Speaker 4: The best saying about Chicago it's a Baptist school where

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Speaker 4: atheist professors teach Jewish students. Saint Thomas Aquinas so super intellectual,

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Speaker 4: and I fit right in my joke is I had

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Speaker 4: a double major in history and celibacy while I was

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Speaker 4: at Chicago.

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Speaker 3: Not a lot of connection, not a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of connection going on there, and so I was

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Speaker 4: cerebral and it, you know, it worked for me. But

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Speaker 4: at some point you just want to get wise, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: smart people know about things, but whise people know about

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Speaker 4: people and life and life and the circumstances we find

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Speaker 4: ourselves in. And so, you know, whise people have a

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Speaker 4: sorehouse of knowledge about human nature. They're curious about other people.

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Speaker 4: They're good at having conversations people remember for a long time.

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Speaker 4: They're good at sitting with someone who's suffering. And so

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to be more like that. I mean,

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Speaker 4: one of the dualisms in the book is in every

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Speaker 4: community there are some people who are diminishers and some

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Speaker 4: people who are illuminators. And diminishers make you feel small

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Speaker 4: and unseen and not curious about you. They stereotype you,

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Speaker 4: and illuminators light you up with their care and they're

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Speaker 4: just really good at making people feel seen, heard and understood.

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Speaker 4: And now I'm intimidated. I'm in the presence of two

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Speaker 4: pretty good illuminators. So that's when my life journey.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, you know, David. I mean, I've so

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Speaker 1: much to talk to you about. I really enjoyed your book,

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Speaker 1: and I think you're very funny in it. I like

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Speaker 1: when you said when it comes to spontaneous displays of emotion,

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Speaker 1: I had the emotional capacity of a head of cabbage.

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Speaker 2: And you really talk about how.

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Speaker 1: Closed off you were to feelings, emotions, connections, and it

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Speaker 1: made me wonder frankly, and I think Kelly and I

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Speaker 1: both I don't know. I'd love to hear about your childhood, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I have been always extremely empathetic and attuned to the

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Speaker 1: emotional well being of people around me, to a point

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Speaker 1: where it's a lot. You know, if I see someone

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Speaker 1: by themselves, I always go and talk to them. When

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Speaker 1: there was only one African American girl in my piano group,

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Speaker 1: I said to my teacher, I hope she wins the

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Speaker 1: prize today because I felt that she felt lonely and different.

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Speaker 1: So I've always been that way, and it made me

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Speaker 1: wonder is empathy the result of nurture or nature because

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Speaker 1: your parents obviously were not particularly touchy feely. But I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's more than that. It's almost something you're

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Speaker 1: hardwired to be. And I'm curious what you found out

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Speaker 1: about that, David.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think empathy is like it's like athletic ability.

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Speaker 4: Some people are born with more of it others, but

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Speaker 4: everybody needs training and everybody does better if they work

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Speaker 4: on it. And so to me, empathy is three skills.

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Speaker 4: The first is mirroring, and that's catching the emotion right

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Speaker 4: in front of you, and that's the natural you're comfortable

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Speaker 4: with your body, you send somebody else emotions and you

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Speaker 4: share it, you feel it. That's mirroring. The next one

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Speaker 4: is mentalizing, and that's the ability to see, Oh, I

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Speaker 4: had an experience like she's going through, so I sort

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Speaker 4: of know what she's going through. So like on the

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Speaker 4: first day of the job, I remember, Oh, on my

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Speaker 4: first day of the job, I was nervous, I was excited,

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Speaker 4: I was overwhelmed. I had all these scattering of different emotions,

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Speaker 4: so I'm mentalizing, I'm projecting what I think. And then

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Speaker 4: the third thing is caring, the ability to accurately care

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Speaker 4: and so kids like, if you come home from work crying,

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Speaker 4: your two year old will hand you a band aid,

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Speaker 4: which is sweet, but it's not what you want. So

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Speaker 4: you have to effectively care. And so there's a guy

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Speaker 4: named Rabbi Elliot Kukla who wrote about a woman who

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Speaker 4: had a brain injury. So she fell on the floor.

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Speaker 4: She just fell down sometimes, and she said people are

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Speaker 4: always rushing to lift me up because they're uncomfortable seeing

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Speaker 4: an adult on the floor. Sometimes they just need to

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Speaker 4: get down on the ground with me. And so empathy

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Speaker 4: is knowing sometimes you just have to get down on

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Speaker 4: the ground with someone. And I put in the book,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to read out a little empathy test so

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Speaker 4: you can tell how naturally talented you are at empathy.

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Speaker 4: And I'll read you a few statements and see if

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Speaker 4: you agree with them. First, is I find it hard

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Speaker 4: to know what to do in social situations. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: bother me when I show up late, people say I

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Speaker 4: went too far and driving home. My point, if those

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Speaker 4: apply to you, you probably you're naturally a little lower

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Speaker 4: on empathy. Interesting, here's some other statements. Interpersonal conflict is

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Speaker 4: painful to me. I mimic the mannerisms of those around me.

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Speaker 4: When I make a social blunder, I'm extremely disturbed. And

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Speaker 4: so if you say yes, this sort of applas to me,

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Speaker 4: that's a sign you probably have higher empathy. And so

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Speaker 4: we have it. We're born with a certain level, but

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Speaker 4: we on need training to get better at it.

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Speaker 3: I have two questions.

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Speaker 2: One is do you think that life experiences accelerate change,

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Speaker 2: Like you had a really hard period in your life,

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Speaker 2: your marriage fell apart, and you did a little self

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Speaker 2: evaluation and didn't really like the results. Katie has obviously

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Speaker 2: been through a terrible loss twice over sister husband. I

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Speaker 2: had cancer in my thirties. It took two years to

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Speaker 2: get rid of. So I wonder about those big moments,

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Speaker 2: and then I want to drill down on mentalizing. But

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Speaker 2: first I'm curious do you think that if you are

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Speaker 2: sort of not a great empathizer by nature, do you

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Speaker 2: think that an ordinary life can get you there or

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Speaker 2: it takes something extraordinary?

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Speaker 4: Well, I have a pretty ordinary life or really a

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Speaker 4: blessed life. But I've had moments of suffering. I used

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Speaker 4: to tell my kids, my students, you know, you can

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Speaker 4: be knowledgeable with other people's knowledge, but you can't be

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Speaker 4: wise with other people's wisdom. You have to live through it,

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Speaker 4: and you know, suffering. One of my favorite sayings about suffering,

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Speaker 4: it's from Paul Tillic in nineteen fifties theologian. He said, suffering,

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Speaker 4: moments of suffering, phases of suffering interrupt your life and

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Speaker 4: remind you you're not the person you thought you were,

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Speaker 4: and that he says, they carved down through the basement

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Speaker 4: of what you thought was the floor of your soul,

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Speaker 4: and they carve through that and reveal a cavity below.

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Speaker 4: Then they carve through that and reveal a cavity below.

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Speaker 4: So you see, at least I think most people do.

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Speaker 4: They see into depths of themselves they didn't know existed

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Speaker 4: in moments of suffering, and they know only spiritual and

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Speaker 4: relational food will fill those depths. And so people have

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Speaker 4: a choice, which is they can be broken or broken open.

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Speaker 4: And some people are broken, they get bitter, they get hard,

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Speaker 4: they close in on themselves. But some people get broken

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Speaker 4: open and they feel more, they get more vulnerable, they

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Speaker 4: have greater empathy. And I do think that after you've

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Speaker 4: been through suffering, you'd come out of it if you

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Speaker 4: use those horrible moments well with a certain sort of knowledge.

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Speaker 4: There's a phrase quotation I left from Thornton Wilder, which is,

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Speaker 4: without your wound, where would your power be? It's your

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Speaker 4: very remorse that makes your low voice tremble in the

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Speaker 4: hearts of men in love service only Wounded Soldiers conserves.

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Speaker 2: That Thornton Wilder, he could write that guy.

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Speaker 3: You get a nice twist of phrase that one.

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Speaker 1: Before you talk about mentalizing, though, I'm curious, David, so

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Speaker 1: it seems to me this has been a life long

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Speaker 1: something that you have wanted to improve for some time.

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Speaker 1: Or was it exacerbated by, as Kelly said, a life event,

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Speaker 1: the fact that your marriage didn't work out, or was

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Speaker 1: there an event or a series of events that really

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Speaker 1: precipitated this longing and this search, or is it just

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Speaker 1: something that you felt was missing in your being?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I felt something was missing so frankly, and the

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Speaker 4: story of telling the book Big Baseball Fan, and I

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Speaker 4: never all the big games I've gone to, I've never

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Speaker 4: gotten a foul ball, And.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right, This is a funny story.

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Speaker 4: I go to the game in Baltimore with my youngest

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Speaker 4: son and the batter loses control of the bat and

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Speaker 4: it lands at my feet. It flies in the stands,

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Speaker 4: and I've got a bat, And any normal human being

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Speaker 4: would be jumping up and down, high fiving, hugging everybody

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Speaker 4: around me, getting on the JumboTron. But I just put

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Speaker 4: the bat at my feet and like sit there like inert,

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Speaker 4: like a turtle.

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Speaker 2: That's when you would describe you having the emotional capacity

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Speaker 2: of ahead of cabbage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm like show a little joy man. And

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Speaker 4: so that that's the aloof reticent version of me. And

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Speaker 4: I did it. I tried to improve myself for change

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Speaker 4: the universe Chicago way. I write books about it. So

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Speaker 4: I wrote a book about emotion. Then I wrote a

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Speaker 4: book about a character formation, and I wrote a book

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Speaker 4: about suffering. And this book is really about how to

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Speaker 4: be wise about people and how to make them feel

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Speaker 4: lit up. And so that's you know, I have, you

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Speaker 4: know work. Writers are usually working out their stuff in public,

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Speaker 4: and I'm working on my stuff and I'm trying to

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Speaker 4: share what I learned with others. One of my favorite

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Speaker 4: phrases of writing is we're beggars who tell other beggars

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Speaker 4: where we found bread. And so when I find something

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Speaker 4: that's useful, I shared, and that's like my highest satisfaction.

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Speaker 4: And I'm going to name drop to show that I've

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Speaker 4: made progress in life.

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Speaker 2: Oh I know this story?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Oprah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah all right, so you're gonna pull out the big

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Speaker 2: oh whatever.

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Speaker 3: Special to David.

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Speaker 4: If you ladies want to praise me, I'm happy to

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Speaker 4: put your story in place.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, David.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know I was going to walk into this

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Speaker 4: amount of rivalry now.

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Speaker 3: Never, you know, just being honest, He goes a thing.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So the Oprah story that one, Sorry I missed it.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I'll tell my Anne Hathaways for instead.

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Speaker 2: That's funny.

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Speaker 3: I know we like that one.

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Speaker 4: So the Oprah story is that she interviews me two times,

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Speaker 4: once in twenty fourteen and once in twenty nineteen, and

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Speaker 4: after twenty nineteen, after the taping, she pulls me aside

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Speaker 4: and said, I've rarely seen someone change so much in

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Speaker 4: middle age. You were so emotionally blocked before. So that

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Speaker 4: was for me, that was like graduation day. I can

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Speaker 4: show that, you know, I've made some progress in much.

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Speaker 1: That is I all kidding aside I think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously she's so highly perceptive and intuitive. Just you know

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Speaker 1: that goes without saying. But I think for her to

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Speaker 1: recognize it, And did you feel obviously, as you said,

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Speaker 1: you felt validated. But do you think she was right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you think there's a way you carry

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Speaker 1: yourself differently, that you talk to people differently, that your

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Speaker 1: body language, that everything about you has opened in some way.

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Speaker 4: I think that's accurate. I do. I hope it's accurate.

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Speaker 4: I'm still not all the way there. I'm not like

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Speaker 4: the most since I'm not a naturally gregarious person, as

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Speaker 4: you know. But if you come up to me with

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Speaker 4: a problem, I'm comfortable enough with your pain to sit

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Speaker 4: with you in your pain a little more. And so

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Speaker 4: I used to like freeze and fear because I didn't

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Speaker 4: know what to do. And I've learned to storify life

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Speaker 4: to try to get stories. So there are two ways

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Speaker 4: of thinking. There's the paradigmatic mode, which is making an argument,

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Speaker 4: which is what we do if we're making a strategy

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Speaker 4: memo or writing a newspaper column. And then there's the

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Speaker 4: narrative mode, which is getting people to tell your stories

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Speaker 4: and so like, even in political journalism, I'd only ask

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Speaker 4: people what do you believe about this? I ask people,

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Speaker 4: how did you come to believe this? And that way

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Speaker 4: they're telling me about somebody who shape their values or

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Speaker 4: some experience they have. There we're in story mode.

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Speaker 2: I asked Sarah Palin that question, David, and she didn't

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Speaker 2: have a very getting right.

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Speaker 1: I said, what newspapers and magazines do you read? And

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Speaker 1: actually all of them, honestly, I know all Kitdting decaught.

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Speaker 1: It was looking for some kind of deep answer that

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Speaker 1: helped me understand what shaped her, what shaped her values,

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Speaker 1: what shaped her outlook, her worldview? And you know, it

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Speaker 1: was an unsuccessful inquiry, but it's interesting because that's really

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Speaker 1: I was genuinely curious about what leads someone to have

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Speaker 1: a certain political ideology. You know, sometimes your parents sometimes

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Speaker 1: I thought she could say William F. Buckley or you know, honestly,

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Speaker 1: even the Bible. I just was looking for what was

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Speaker 1: a very formative experience that made her the woman she

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Speaker 1: is today.

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Speaker 4: It's very curious that she couldn't answer that question. Well,

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Speaker 4: was she genuinely lack a story about the values that

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Speaker 4: formed her. Did she think, oh, I can't tell that

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Speaker 4: in public, it might not be helped me politically, or

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Speaker 4: maybe nobody had ever asked her and so she didn't.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people no one's ever asked them those

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Speaker 4: basic questions.

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Speaker 1: Well, remember when Roger Mudd asked to Kennedy why he

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Speaker 1: wanted to be president and Teddy Kennedy was speechless.

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Speaker 4: I was just thinking exactly of that episode, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: I think she just didn't read much and had no

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Speaker 1: intellectual curiosity, honestly, and I think she got tripped up

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Speaker 1: on naming things and I kind of left it wide open.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, it's really interesting. I'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: David Brooks and my special Plus one guest Kelly Corrigan.

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Speaker 1: Kelly and I are back with David Brooks.

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Speaker 2: So I just wanted to loop back on mentalizing, because

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Speaker 2: what you were suggesting is that if a person comes

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Speaker 2: through with a certain shape of a problem that you

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Speaker 2: could identify and say, oh, I've had something similar, I

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Speaker 2: know what that might feel like. But that bumps up

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Speaker 2: against the UT research that you unearthed for the book,

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Speaker 2: which is pointing us toward this terrible interpersonal arrogance where

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Speaker 2: we have too much confidence in our ability to read

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Speaker 2: body language and expression and gesture. And it brings up

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Speaker 2: one of my all time favorite concepts. We did a

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Speaker 2: series on it on my pod last year about intellectual humility.

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Speaker 2: So can you talk about the UT research and what

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Speaker 2: it points out about our over estimation of our own

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Speaker 2: perceptive skills.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. First, I love that phrase interpersonal arrogance.

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Speaker 3: That's that is what were yours. Take it run with it.

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Speaker 4: It was stolen about thirty seconds ago. So the research

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Speaker 4: is guy named William Mikes who's at the University of Texas, Arlington,

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Speaker 4: and he finds that when we meet a stranger and

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Speaker 4: have a conversation with him for the first time, we're

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Speaker 4: accurately reading each other's minds only twenty percent of the time,

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Speaker 4: and some people when we are with friends and family.

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Speaker 4: We are accurately reading each other thirty five percent of

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Speaker 4: the time, and so some people are pretty good at

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Speaker 4: it fifty five percent they're accurate. Some people are terrible

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Speaker 4: zero percent and they think they're one hundred percent. But

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Speaker 4: the point is we're all sort of creative. We all

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Speaker 4: have our own distinct point of view. We all see

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Speaker 4: the world in our own way. And while it's important

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Speaker 4: to mentalize to try to think, well, I've shared this experience,

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Speaker 4: you probably have to. We have to be humble and

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Speaker 4: know we probably can't imagine our way into somebody else's mind.

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Speaker 4: The only way in is ask. And that's why to

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Speaker 4: me that the central humanistic skill is the ability to

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Speaker 4: be a great conversationalist, not just a good one, but

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Speaker 4: a really great one. And this is another area where

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Speaker 4: we're not as good as we think we are. We

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Speaker 4: all think we're good conversationalists, but being a conversationalist, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you guys do it for a living. But it's a

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Speaker 4: high art form. And I've been in over the last

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Speaker 4: year I think back, I've been in some phenomenal conversations,

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Speaker 4: and I've been in some terrible ones that I don't

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Speaker 4: really remember. And the phenomenal ones invariably revolved around some

434
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 4: big question. Somebody put a big question on the table

435
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: and it allowed us to explore it altogether.

436
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 2: I think about that bringing intellectual humility into our most

437
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: important relationships. So I have a twenty year old and

438
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: a twenty two year old, and I think my job

439
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: is to say, tell me more, what else? Go on

440
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: until we unearth the thing behind the thing behind the thing,

441
00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 2: because otherwise they're presenting and you're speeding to a point

442
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: of view, and you're advising with your clever advice, and

443
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: as soon as you start talking, they're tuning out. They're like,

444
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: she literally doesn't even know what I'm talking about. I

445
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: haven't even told her that the real reason I'm upset

446
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 2: is because parents weekend is coming up and I don't

447
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: know who we're having dinner with on Saturday night. But

448
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: what I told her is I felt a little anxious

449
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: in mad class, and now she's talking to me about caffeine.

450
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.

451
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 4: That's fantastic, that's fantastic. Yeah, the rule is asked three times,

452
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 4: like your job is to stand in their standpoint, is

453
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 4: to say, Okay, what was that? And then ask it

454
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: the same question different phrasing than the third time. The

455
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 4: third time you actually are beginning to get some answers.

456
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: In many ways, I think this book is a blueprint

457
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: for everyone on how to be a better person, how

458
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: to be a better partner, how to be a better friend,

459
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: how to be a better parent. And I think everybody

460
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: wants that. And what do you think are some of

461
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: the you know, obviously we can't view the whole book, David,

462
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: but what are some of the key things that you

463
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: need to do to really know someone to make sure

464
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: that person is really seen just parenthetically. I don't know

465
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: about you all, but whenever I go to a funeral,

466
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: I leave and I think, Gosh, I wish I had

467
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: known this person better. I never knew this. I never

468
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: asked them about that. A friend of mine recently died,

469
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: and I have to say she believed nothing should be

470
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: left unsaid. She always told me, we always told each

471
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: other how important we were to each other in our lives.

472
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: And she saw me and knew me deeply, and I

473
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: think I knew her deeply too. I didn't have that

474
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: feeling at her service, but so many other times I

475
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: feel like Gosh, I had such a superficial relationship with

476
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: this person? Why didn't I know them better? And I'm

477
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: just curious a if you guys ever feel that way

478
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: when you go to funerals And again be David, what

479
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: are some of the ways we can we can feel closer,

480
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: more connected and see people who are important to us?

481
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean the nicely about funerals is they talk

482
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 4: about people talk about what matters. And when I had

483
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: this earlier book where I made a distinction between the

484
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 4: resume virtues and the eulogy virtues right right, and the

485
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 4: resume virtues of the things that make you good at

486
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 4: your job, and nobody talks about that at a funeral.

487
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: They talk about whether you're a courageous, honest, capable of

488
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 4: great love. And so you know, I think, as I say,

489
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: big questions are the way you get to know somebody,

490
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 4: Like you're having coffee with someone, you're at a dinner table, whatever,

491
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 4: And we're shy about asking questions, but there's some questions

492
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 4: you can ask that lift people out of their day

493
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: to day life and get them seeing themselves from thirty

494
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 4: thousand feet. So it's like, what crossroads are you at?

495
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 4: Often we're at a moment of transitional life it's interesting

496
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 4: to ask what crossroads you at. Other questions are like,

497
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 4: if this five years is a chapter in your life,

498
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 4: what's the chapter about, what's the commitment you've made that

499
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 4: you no longer really believe in. I was at a

500
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: party with a political scientist. He said, I'm eighty, what

501
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 4: do I do with the rest of my life? And

502
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 4: that was a great conversation about his interests or how

503
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: you do old age well and what you should do

504
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: in the year's approaching death. And so we went on

505
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 4: for like ninety minutes talking about Wow, various things that's

506
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: spun off from that, and it's just like you think, oh,

507
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: it's just a memorable conversation, But I'll never see him

508
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 4: the same way. I know a lot more about that guy,

509
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 4: and I had the pleasure of really seeing into the

510
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 4: interior of a very wise person's life.

511
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: You know, it would be fun to do a game.

512
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: I think they have this like conversation starters or something.

513
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never I've been given it and

514
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: I've never used it, which may be part of the problem.

515
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: But maybe do a list of big questions that will

516
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: open up a conversation. So actually, when you're at a

517
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: dinner party, it becomes much more meaningful and worth your

518
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: time than a bunch of small talk with the person

519
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: to your right.

520
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: I think it's almost like there's an awkwardness. You feel

521
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: like a goon. Like we used to do those conversation

522
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: cards and put one under each plate, and then at

523
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: any point during dinner you could lift your plate and

524
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: take the card and ask somebody next to you, like

525
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 2: what's your biggest fear? Or if your high school did superlatives,

526
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 2: what would yours have been? Or if your mother wrote

527
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: a book about you, what would it be called? Is

528
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 2: there anyone you would like to apologize too? Like there's

529
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: so many juicy questions, and most people have like a

530
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: little bit of a guard up and they feel goofy

531
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: trying to take it from like you know, the kid's

532
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: soccer game or your Christmas plans to something much deeper. Well, David,

533
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: I think David writes Kelly that we're not taught how

534
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: to do this, and I think that they're in life

535
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: the rub right totally. And there's whole generations who think

536
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: asking these types of questions is completely rude. Like my

537
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: mother would say, oh, for God's sake, like, you know

538
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: you know how every now and then on Instagram or TikTok,

539
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: it's like, ask your mother these seven questions before she dies. Like,

540
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: I can't even I sent that to my daughter recently.

541
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: I couldn't even ask one question before my mom's cut

542
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: me off and said, oh, for god.

543
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: Sake, Kelly, who wants to talk about that?

544
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: So, like, not everybody's playing the same game here, and

545
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: not every generation is used to operating on this level.

546
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: But we do have this million dollar opportunity where many

547
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: many more people have read many many more of these

548
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: types of books, have been to therapy, have sat on

549
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: dorm room floors like bearing their Soul. We're just more

550
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: practiced in it, and hopefully it will lead to like

551
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: a different kind of societal conversation, although it sure doesn't

552
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: seem to be trending that way.

553
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: David Brooks, Yeah, well I do agree with you and

554
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,959
Speaker 4: I you know, obviously you've got to pace it so

555
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 4: you don't want to walk in meet somebody, you know,

556
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: how do your ancestor show up in your life?

557
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: Like, Hi, I'm David. When was the last time you cried?

558
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: You know? I start just with like, uh, where'd you

559
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 4: grow up? And we just want to get people talking

560
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 4: about their childhood. People are fantastic talking about their childhood.

561
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 4: And so I travel a lot, so I've probably have

562
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: been to the place and we can have a conversation

563
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: or even like where'd you get your name? Like gets

564
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 4: people talking about their family and stuff like that, and

565
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 4: then you know the shallow conversations like I once asked

566
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 4: a group of people, tell me about your most enjoyable,

567
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: unimportant thing about yourself. And so I learned this austere

568
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: academic guy loves trashy reality TV. So it was like

569
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 4: a window into them, and I got to talk about

570
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 4: my obsession with early Taylor Swift's albums.

571
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: Really wait, slow down, mister, give us a leerless, give

572
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: us a lyric or two.

573
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 4: Hey, you're cheercime. I'm on the bleachers. You're the cheer captain.

574
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 2: Did you relate? Did you meet that?

575
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 4: That's so you know I'm a what's her lyric? I'm

576
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 4: your nightmare dressed as a day dreams?

577
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: I so relate, I thought, so, well, my god, it

578
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: all goes back to Taylor Swift. Here's what David Brooks

579
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: is a swifty like just yeah, let's stop the presses.

580
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: We're breaking news. David Brooks is a.

581
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: Swifty A good friend of mine today said Taylor Swift

582
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: isn't a singer, she's a lifestyle.

583
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a religion at this point she is.

584
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 4: She has a lyric that from her new album Let's

585
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: See if I can redress it. That's it's narcissism dressed

586
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 4: up like altruism, like some sort of congressman. I think

587
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: that's a fantastic, pretty good.

588
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's brilliant.

589
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: Well wait, so so you're talking about interesting ways in

590
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: to get to know people, and I love it. And Kelly,

591
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: I imagine you and I probably do stuff like that

592
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: because we are just naturally curious and interested in other people.

593
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: But I feel like you could always I could always

594
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: hone those skills even more. And to pick up on

595
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: Kelly's last point, David, I think you know when she

596
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: said things aren't trending this way. Society is not making

597
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: this easy, these deep connections, meaningful relationships. And you talk

598
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: a lot about that, how the way we live is

599
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: almost antithetical to creating these deep friendships where people feel seen.

600
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was in some ways they impetus

601
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 4: by the book. Not only might desire to personally grow

602
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 4: but looking at society around me, and we're in the

603
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 4: middle of some sort of social and emotional and relational crisis,

604
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: and so you know, rising mental health problems, rising suicide rates.

605
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 4: Fifty four percent of Americans say that no one knows

606
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 4: them well. The number of people who say they have

607
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 4: no close personal friends is up by four times in

608
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 4: the last twenty years. Thirty six percent of Americans say

609
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 4: they feel persistently lonely. Forty five percent of teenagers say

610
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 4: they feel persistently hopeless and despondent. The number of people

611
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 4: that are not in a romantic relationship is up by

612
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 4: a third. It's just like one statistic after another where

613
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 4: we're just in an emotional and relational recession. And I

614
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 4: think it's caused by this rising cycle of distrust, and

615
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 4: distrust has caused because people haven't been trustworthy, and especially

616
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 4: young people feel that others have betrayed them. And I

617
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 4: used to talk about the levels of distrust with my students,

618
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 4: my college students, and one woman said to me, well,

619
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 4: have you seen our social life like you can imagine

620
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 4: you go through life, you're getting ghosted by somebody who

621
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 4: thought was your boyfriend or your girlfriend, you're getting savaged

622
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: on social media. People are cruel to you, and so

623
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 4: you have this rising level of distrust and to me,

624
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 4: the only way to fight it is with the skills

625
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: I'm talking about in the book. And some people think,

626
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 4: like the stuff we're talking about is like woo woo

627
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,959
Speaker 4: and squishy, but to me, it's the only practical way out. Like,

628
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 4: it's not woo woo to like, lead with curiosity, it's

629
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 4: not woo woo to lead with respect. And the only

630
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 4: way you get out of our social mess is by

631
00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 4: acting in this way.

632
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Can you talk about I guess you were giving a talk, David,

633
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: and you've got a question on an index card that

634
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: you said has haunted you for a very long time.

635
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that?

636
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was in Oklahoma and it's one of those

637
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 4: talks where at the end of the talk they don't

638
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 4: ask questions face to face, they just give you index cards.

639
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 4: So I'm running through the cards and most of the

640
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 4: questions are like politics or something, and then I turned

641
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 4: to one card and says, what do you do if

642
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 4: you no longer want to be alive? And that to

643
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 4: me was like a window into a lot of the

644
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 4: pain that's out there in America, and at the moment,

645
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 4: I didn't know what to say, and so I let

646
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 4: it go without even answering or without even acknowledging it.

647
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 4: And I think if I could go back, I would say,

648
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 4: first of all, I want to salute you for your

649
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 4: courage and your endurance, because you are still here, and

650
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 4: you're in a lot of pain, but you're still here.

651
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 4: And then I would like to repeat to you something

652
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 4: Victor Frankel said in Man Search for Meeting, which is

653
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 4: that life is not stopped expecting things of you, and

654
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 4: that there are still many good things you can do

655
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 4: in the world. And then I would say, and I

656
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 4: mentioned I have a chapter in the book about losing

657
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 4: my oldest friend to depression. And you know, I would say, listen,

658
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: there's no words I can utter that can heal your pain,

659
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 4: but I can assure you that we're never leaving. We're

660
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: here for you. And I think when you're dealing with

661
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 4: someone who's suffering from that much pain and depression, all

662
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 4: you can say is I acknowledge the reality of the situation.

663
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 4: I'm here for you. I'm not leaving. I'm just here.

664
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 2: When you described your embarrassment at a dinner the very

665
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: next night. What happened.

666
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, the woman who was at our house for dinner said, well,

667
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 4: my brother committed suicide a few months ago, and then

668
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 4: I mentioned it. I have my bunch of buddies and

669
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 4: I get on a zoom call every Thursday, and I

670
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 4: mentioned it to that group, and like half the people

671
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 4: had some sort of suicide in their family and their life.

672
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 4: And then, you know, as I mentioned later, I lost

673
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 4: my best friend to it. And it just feels like

674
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 4: the pain in society is something pervasive that it's touched

675
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 4: everyone who has lost someone to addiction, to suicide, someone

676
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 4: who has a kid who's suffering with mental health issues.

677
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 4: It's just like rivers of pain in society. And it's

678
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 4: hard to have a healthy democracy when your society is

679
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 4: rotting from the foundation. And this is what I worry

680
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 4: about most, this social fragmentation.

681
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: I think about sometimes the increase in therapy and antidepressant

682
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 2: medications and the decrease in mental health, like those two

683
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: lines are not working together to take us to a

684
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: better place.

685
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: I think David talks about that Kelly, because he says

686
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: looking within can lead people to become vulnerable narcissists and

687
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: I've wondered about that too, because when you look at

688
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: surveys about happiness, it's really and I've interviewed people about this,

689
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: so I'm sure all of us have. It's really about

690
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: service to others and not being so self absorbed and

691
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: self focused that leads you to happiness. And I thought,

692
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, David, you could talk about what happened after

693
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: World War Two and how sort of the focus on

694
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: the individual and now the uber focus on our own

695
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: quote unquote well being has impacted our ability to form

696
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: deep relationships.

697
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

698
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we've just got a much more

699
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 4: individualistic culture. I mean when America was founded, that the

700
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 4: founding fathers had a pretty realistic view of human nature

701
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 4: that we're generous, well, we're also self centered, and so

702
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 4: they had the idea that if we're going to build

703
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 4: a country, a democracy out of these people, we need

704
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 4: to do moral formation. And moral formation is a pretentious word,

705
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 4: but it's really three basic things. One is it gives

706
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 4: you tips for how to control your natural selfishness. Two,

707
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 4: it helps you find a purpose in life and ideal

708
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: to organize your life around. And three it teaches you

709
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 4: the skills of being considered in the complex circumstances of life,

710
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: and so how do you ask for an offer forgiveness?

711
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 4: How do you break up with someone without crushing their heart?

712
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 4: These are basic social skills, and I think we've forgotten

713
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 4: how to teach them, how to pass them along to generations.

714
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 4: And then we just live in a much more individualistic

715
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 4: culture where people decide I don't need to pay attention

716
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 4: to some external morality. I just need to get in

717
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 4: touch with myself. And my basic rule is you're happier

718
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,959
Speaker 4: when you're thinking about other people, and you're less happy

719
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 4: when you're thinking about yourself. It's just like that simple.

720
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 4: And a lot of our happiness industrial complex gets people

721
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 4: thinking about themselves, and I think it's self destructive. And

722
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 4: there is research that show that people who spend their

723
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 4: most time thinking about happiness are least happy.

724
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know.

725
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: And so this is my mom's whole opinions. So my

726
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: dad sold ad space in women's magazines, and so we

727
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: had women's magazines in our house, going back to like

728
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: McCall's and then Get how Keeping whatever, and she would

729
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: look at them, and even though her whole life was

730
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 2: being underwritten by these magazines, they drove her bananas, because

731
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: she was like, the answer is go to church and volunteer.

732
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: That's the answer. Like what is all this nonsense, all

733
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: this lumination, all this self focus, all this me me me,

734
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: and I need a bath every day and I need

735
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: to have my massage massageer for my shoulders. She's like,

736
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: that is nonsense, Like, get your ass in church and

737
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: go help somebody.

738
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: Well, I do think there's a happy medium, you know.

739
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: I do think kind of quote unquote self care. You know,

740
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: the idea of putting your oxygen mask on first so

741
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: you can be a better person to those you love.

742
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: I do think there's some legitimacy to that, but I

743
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: do think the pendulum has swung a little too far,

744
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: and I think it's honestly, I think it's kind of

745
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: a modern day medicine for loneliness that if you can

746
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 1: spend your time worrying about your pores, then it's actually

747
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: just taking time that it makes you feel better because

748
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 1: you're thinking about something other than your own misery.

749
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, No, it's just loneliness is a perversity because

750
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 4: no one wants to be lonely. And yet now, as

751
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 4: I said, thirty six percent are persistently lonely. Why don't

752
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 4: they just get together with the other loner people. But

753
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 4: one of the problems is loneliness distorts your view of

754
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 4: reality and it makes you suspicious of other people. So

755
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: you begin to fear what you long for most, which

756
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 4: is human connection.

757
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: But also our sense of community has unraveled, David. I

758
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: know with your Whole Weave project, you're looking at people

759
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: who are developing a sense of community. But you think

760
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: about church attendance and religious services. The attendance has declined

761
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: a lot, and there aren't like rotary clubs and Kuwanas clubs,

762
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: and you know, people don't seem to get together as much.

763
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: So these things that gave us a sense of community.

764
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: Of course, it was exacerbated by the pandemic. So I

765
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: think bringing some of those institutional structures back is really

766
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: important too, Because you say, I'm curious, you say loneliness

767
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: leads to meanness, so you know it's not only distrust,

768
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 1: but it's actually meanness.

769
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 4: How So, well, if you feel invisible to the world,

770
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 4: there's nothing crueler than indifference, and so if you feel

771
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 4: you're not seen by the world, you regard that as

772
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 4: an injustice, which it is, and so you want to

773
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: lash out. You decide the world's a very dangerous place,

774
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 4: and you want to lash out. And I think what

775
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 4: a lot of people have done is they've taken loneliness

776
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 4: and they've taken really a moral vacuum they find themselves in,

777
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 4: and they've tried to fill it with politics. And so,

778
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 4: in a healthy society, we have the politics of distribution,

779
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 4: like where should we put the resources of money, how

780
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 4: hi shad taxes be, what should we spend money on?

781
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 4: That's a healthy society. We have the politics of recognition,

782
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 4: where we want to have a politics where my side

783
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 4: is elevated and respected and your side is shamed and destroyed.

784
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 4: And so politics gives you the illusion that you are

785
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 4: living in a moral landscape. There's us good guys and

786
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 4: those bad guys. Gives you the illusion you're doing moral action.

787
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: I'm getting indignant about those people who are ruining the country.

788
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 4: It gives you the illusion of community, like you're in

789
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 4: a party. But these are just illusions, like you're not

790
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 4: really in the community. You're not getting to know somebody,

791
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 4: you're just hating the same people together, and you're not

792
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 4: really in a moral landscape, which is about the line

793
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 4: between good and evil runs through every human heart, not

794
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 4: between groups, and so you've traded your moral vacuum for

795
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 4: sort of culture war and moral war. And I think

796
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 4: that's one of the reasons why everything in society has

797
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 4: gotten so politicized.

798
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: But also so black and white and so lacking of nuance.

799
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: You quote a researcher named Ryan Streeter, he's director of

800
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: Domestic Policy Studies at the AI American Enterprise Institute that

801
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: lonely young people are seven times more likely to say

802
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: they are active in politics and young people who aren't lonely.

803
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: And I think this is elaborating on what you just said.

804
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: It gives them some sense of community to be with

805
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: like minded people. It's almost their little tribe of people

806
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 1: who they can feel connected to. But what you're saying

807
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: is they're not really connected to them.

808
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 4: They're just sharing their Twitter feeds, and you know, they're

809
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 4: not really doing good. They're not sitting with the poor,

810
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 4: serving a widow. They're just registering their feelings or their

811
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: emotions about some political issue. And so to me, it's

812
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 4: like a very impoverished way to live. Cover politics. We

813
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 4: care about politics, but politics is not more important than family.

814
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 4: Politics not more important than your friendships and your relationships.

815
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 4: And when I look at the rise of misery in

816
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 4: this country, I could tell a lot of stories, Like Katie,

817
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 4: you told the sociology story, we just aren't active in

818
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 4: civic life. I could tell the social media story, which is,

819
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: you know, social media's driving us all crazy, which I

820
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 4: was also a true story. I could tell economic inequality story,

821
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 4: we're just more separated from one another. I can even

822
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 4: tell the coddling story, where overprotective parenting leads to kids

823
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: who are not resilient in the face of challenge. But

824
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: to me, the core story, and the one I addressed

825
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,479
Speaker 4: in the book, is we're just not treating each other well.

826
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: I mean, we're just at a basic human level. We

827
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 4: find ourselves in the world that's distrustful and brutal, and

828
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 4: the meanness comes up. You know. I was at a

829
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 4: restaurant in New York a couple months ago, and I

830
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 4: happened to be chatting with the owner and he said,

831
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 4: I have to throw people out of this restaurant every

832
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 4: week now for rude behavior. A friend who's a nurse,

833
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 4: and she said, I have trouble keeping staff because the

834
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 4: patients have gotten so abusive, that the nurses want to

835
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 4: leave the profession, and so there's just been this rising

836
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,959
Speaker 4: tide of hate crimes. You know, the incidents on airplanes.

837
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 4: COVID made it all worse. But loneliness leads to meanness.

838
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, an accompaniment like in the Pote Francis way, is

839
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: a very advanced move, like for a human being to

840
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: be able to do that, because accompaniment is sort of

841
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: antithetical to the fix. What do you mean by accompaniment?

842
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: It's just like, I'm just gonna sit with you. Like

843
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: you can just tell me your weirdest, hardest thing. You

844
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: can say I think my marriage is ending. You can

845
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: say I don't. I'm as much money as I pretend

846
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: like I have. You can say I think that my

847
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 2: daughter is suicidal. You can say these horribly difficult things,

848
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: and I will not dive in with my smarty pants solution.

849
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: I'll just sit with you. I'll just sit right down

850
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: with you in it. But that is like very advanced,

851
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: Like not that many people I know in my life

852
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 2: are that good at biting their tongue because it's so uncomfortable.

853
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not. I always try to fix things, yes, people,

854
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: or that's my immediate impulse. How can I fix this

855
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 1: problem for you? Yeah, and I think you're right.

856
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 3: Let's tell me more. What else go on?

857
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: Like those seven words will take you so far, And

858
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: it's so relaxing to be like, I'm actually not formulating,

859
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: we're not taking turns talking. I'm actually just absorbing and

860
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm gonna let Like I remember talking to Claire, my daughter,

861
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and she was such a she was

862
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: so bright eyed the whole time she was baking and

863
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: learning Spanish and like doing the pandemic, like getting an

864
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: a and pandemic. And then she cracked one day and

865
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: I said, what else? And she said lacrosse? Like we

866
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: can't play lacrosse, which means I'm not getting any exercise,

867
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: which means like I'm sluggish all day. I'm like, what else?

868
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: She's like, there are no parties, like I just watched

869
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: fash times at Ridgemont High. None of that is like

870
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: my high school experience. My high school experience is sitting

871
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: in my bedroom. What else go on? Everybody's fighting over

872
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 2: who can go to parties and who can't?

873
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: What else? I mean?

874
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: She must have had twenty five things and all we

875
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: did was let them surface and I had no answers

876
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 2: at all. It was just like let the river run

877
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: and Claire like say it all. I don't care. I'm

878
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: not going to stop you. We need to talk to

879
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: Kelly Moore. David.

880
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 4: I know, I know there's a thing called the midwife

881
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 4: model that your job in some conversations when somebody's hurting

882
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 4: is your job is not to be the You're not

883
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 4: giving birth, You're just the midwife. You're helping the person

884
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 4: give birth.

885
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

886
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 2: Accompanyment is a noble aspiration person to person. I've never

887
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 2: even heard of that, so I'm going to think about that.

888
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like a pianist accompanying a singer, Like the

889
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 4: pianist is paying attention to the singer and he knows

890
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 4: he's not the star, but he's doing what he can

891
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 4: to make her shiney.

892
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: Like coming up underneath.

893
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: It's so beautiful.

894
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

895
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, David, Kelly and I get very pragmatic

896
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: when it comes to having a good conversation about thorny

897
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: tough subjects, including current events. With no fees or minimums.

898
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899
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Speaker 1: your wallet? Terms apply see capitolwe dot com slash bank

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Speaker 1: Capital one NA member fdic Kelly and I are back

904
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: with David Brooks. I wanted to ask you, I just

905
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: you know, everything you've talked about, of course, is surfacing

906
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of those horrific barbarian attacks in Israel

907
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: that were just honestly so unspeak I don't even I

908
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: think words failed to even describe what happened in Israel,

909
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: and now of course the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding

910
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: and Gaza. I think words failed there as well. But

911
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: the reaction, David has been so intense, so angry, so

912
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: lacking in humility. You know that maybe you don't have

913
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: all the answers, And I'm curious how you've seen that

914
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: in light of writing this book and are afraid social relationships,

915
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: how you've used your lens to watch this and analyze it.

916
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 4: Thank you for asking that. It's obviously been a very

917
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 4: intense period. I guess at first I've sometimes had the

918
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 4: thought that we're in this epic battle between the forces

919
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 4: of dehumanization and the forces of humanization. And if you

920
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 4: want to know dehumanization, the ultimate form is somebody who

921
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 4: can go to a music festival and murder and rape

922
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 4: innocent teenager, very young people. I mean, that is the

923
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: essence of dehumanization.

924
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 2: It's like they were characters in a video game or something, right.

925
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 4: It's the failure recognized the humanity of the people right

926
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 4: in front of you, and to cackle while you're killing them.

927
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 4: And then, Frank, I saw the Israeli defense ministers say

928
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: we're going to war against animals, and I think Hamas

929
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 4: is evil, but they are human beings and we just

930
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 4: shouldn't call human beings animals. First of all, it's not

931
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 4: fair to the animals. They're not going around committing genocide.

932
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 4: But also it's just we should always respect there's another

933
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 4: human being on the side here.

934
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: Well, I think more importantly is that Palestinians are you know,

935
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians. I mean, honestly, the way

936
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: they behaved, and maybe this is wrong. I had no

937
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: issue with him calling the people who committed these crimes

938
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: animals because they were subhuman. To your point, David, But

939
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: I think the mistake is tarrying all Palestinians living in

940
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: Gaza as such.

941
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and some people, you know, you have to fight

942
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 4: iron with iron. You can't like reason with hamas like,

943
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 4: you just have to fight them. And that's the grim reality.

944
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 4: But you know, I was late at night one night,

945
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 4: I was doom scrolling through Twitter or whatever whatever's left

946
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 4: of it, and I was seeing all the videos of

947
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 4: the kids were killed in Israel, the bombings and Gaza,

948
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 4: just ream of dehumanization. And then I scroll and somehow

949
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 4: in my Twitter feed there I come across a video

950
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 4: of a short interview with James Baldwin, the great novelist

951
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 4: from the fifties and sixties, and he's saying, there's not

952
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 4: as much humanity in the world as one would like,

953
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 4: but there's more than you think there's enough. And you

954
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 4: have to remember when you walk down the street and

955
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 4: you look at the other people, you have to remember

956
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 4: you're looking at you. That could be you. You could

957
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 4: be the cop, you could be the monster, you could

958
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 4: be the cruel person. And you just have to make

959
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 4: a conscious choice to decide not to be that. And

960
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 4: so in the midst of all this dehumanization. When you

961
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 4: see Baldwin, you see a defiant humanist, a person who's

962
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 4: not going to put away as humanity in the midst

963
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 4: of conflict, in the midst of racism, which is dehumanization,

964
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: who's going to try to extend end up for the

965
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 4: human dignity in the human mind. And I just found

966
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 4: that defiant humanism in the face of dehumanizing circumstances is

967
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 4: so inspiring. It's like Mendela coming out of prison in

968
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 4: South Africa. It's like gold in my ear in Israel,

969
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 4: in the Middle East, it's like Gandhi in India, like

970
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 4: in brutal circumstances, discovering your humanity. And I'm a big

971
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 4: fan of a woman named Eddie Hillissom who was a

972
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 4: Jewish woman and grew up in Amsterdam the thirties and forties,

973
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 4: and when the Nazis occupied Germany. At that point she

974
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 4: was twenty five and frankly self indulgent and a little spoiled.

975
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 4: But over the next few years she was transformed into

976
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 4: someone who was basically a human saint who spent her

977
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 4: time caring for those other Jews in Amsterdam who are

978
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: in danger of getting shipped to Auschwitz, and she was

979
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 4: remembered as this warm, glowing, other centered person, and her

980
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 4: biographer wrote of her, she changed by paying attention. She

981
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 4: paid close attention to the people who were suffering, and

982
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 4: by power of that attention, she sort of grew by looking.

983
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 4: And so she understood the anxiety in some of these voice,

984
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: the fear in somebody else's, and in that way she

985
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 4: was transformed. And I've always found her example of somebody

986
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 4: who refused to get numb by bitterness, and who insisted

987
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 4: on being open and available and giving and accompanying people

988
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 4: even in the most brutal time.

989
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 2: I actually think that goes to the single most important

990
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 2: line in your book, which is that our greatest moral

991
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: act is the quality of our attention.

992
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: You also quote Peggy Noonan saying people are proud of

993
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: their bitterness.

994
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, in every one of Peggy's columns there are

995
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: like three or four sentences you want to clip out

996
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 4: and say forever.

997
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, isn't it? But it is depressing. And

998
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, I have been chagrined that this whole idea

999
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: of practicing dialectical thinking holding two opposing views at once. Yes,

1000
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: the Israeli policies towards Gaza have been in some cases inhumane,

1001
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: and this attack was unconscionable and deserves universal condemnation. And

1002
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem like people can hold those two

1003
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: thoughts at once. Some people can, but they're even being

1004
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: accused of being complicit if they're holding these two thoughts.

1005
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: And for me as a journalist, honestly, it's been very,

1006
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: very difficult to cover this because I get angry DMS

1007
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven from both sides. And do you

1008
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: think they're people who are able to try to look

1009
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: at to have empathy for both places or are those

1010
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 1: people in the minority?

1011
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: And could we potentially gin up some empathy for the

1012
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 2: people who are so drawn to certainty, Like could we

1013
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 2: say to all the people in your DMS, of course

1014
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 2: you want it to be black and white. Of course

1015
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 2: you want it to be clear as day. Of course

1016
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: you want it to be unequivocal, Like we want that

1017
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: every time everything comes across our transom, that's what we do.

1018
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 2: We're sorting as fast as we can good or bad,

1019
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: good or bad, good or bad.

1020
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: But things aren't good or bad. I mean, I think

1021
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: you're talking about factor fiction, but things are messy right,

1022
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: they're nuanced, They're complicated totally. And people are so righteous, yes,

1023
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: and you can understand that. And I want to be empathetic,

1024
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: as you say, Kelly, to those who are righteous, because

1025
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: I think they are bearing the burden of, you know,

1026
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: decades of oppression or decades of fear, decades of anti Semitism,

1027
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: or decades of being thought you're less than because of

1028
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: your circumstances. So I get it. It's just so hard

1029
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: to navigate.

1030
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 2: David.

1031
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I covered it for twenty years or so,

1032
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 4: and it was the hardest thing to write about because

1033
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 4: people are so polarized about that as issue. But I

1034
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 4: remember once I was at a dinner at when Shimo

1035
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 4: and Peiz was president of Israel. Heated dinner with like

1036
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 4: forty or fifty people, and he invited the Palestinian leadership

1037
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 4: was there. I remember Abu Allah, who was a lead

1038
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: Palestinian negotiator, and then the Israeli people who had been

1039
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 4: in the peace process for all their lives. It was

1040
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 4: a un named Dan Meridor and others, and a bunch

1041
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 4: of journalists were invited, and there was such a warmth

1042
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 4: in the room that it was as if everybody in

1043
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 4: the room was like a bunch of old guys who

1044
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 4: were in the peace process business, and they had been

1045
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 4: through crises, they'd been through years and decades of negotiation,

1046
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 4: and I remember that warmth and there. This was back

1047
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 4: in the nineties when it really did seem like peace

1048
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 4: was at hand, and those were people who were just

1049
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 4: dealing with the complexities of the situation, like how do

1050
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 4: we have a settlement where the Palestine get sovereignty over

1051
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 4: the Aluxeamosque and the Jews get sovereignty over the Western Wall?

1052
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 4: How do you do that? How practicality is how you

1053
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 4: do it? Now, nobody's talking about practicalities. Frankly, it's all theater.

1054
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 4: It's all terror theater, and people are just trying to

1055
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 4: get their message and their narrative across without just the

1056
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 4: elements of like how actually would you have a two

1057
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 4: state solution? And I think what's happened is that both

1058
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 4: sides have given up on practical thinking. They just have decided, well,

1059
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 4: we'll postpone when we get but we're going to get

1060
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: it all. Someday we're going to get it all. We're

1061
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 4: going to wish that the other side didn't exist. And

1062
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 4: that's just not true, and the other side is going

1063
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 4: to be there forever and ever, and yet we're into

1064
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 4: the just I want to make a statement on Instagram

1065
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 4: and that's how I wage my politics these days.

1066
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: And that's what wins. I mean nobody. I have this

1067
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: scientist friend, Lisa Feldman Barrett, who I think you know, David,

1068
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: and she's often quoted. She's like one of the top

1069
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: one percent of scientists quoted in other people's reach, but

1070
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: she's never in the paper. And I said, why aren't

1071
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 2: you in the paper? And she said, because I won't

1072
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: say unequivocal things. And that's not what anyone wants to hear.

1073
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 2: So the journalists hang up and they call another scientist

1074
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 2: who will say, oh, yes, it's always this or it's

1075
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 2: always that, like black and white cells, and nuance is exhausting,

1076
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: like vitriol is very energizing. Righteousness you talk faster, you

1077
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 2: sit up higher, you draw people to you. It's like

1078
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: a total ego buzz and like sitting around saying like, Eh,

1079
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: this is really complicated. Look what are you going to

1080
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: do about that?

1081
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's an engagement through enragement, right, I mean exactly

1082
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: the whole name of the game. These days, you know,

1083
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: David Kelly, and I I think could talk to you

1084
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: all day. But I'm curious as you look to the

1085
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: future because i hate to say it, but I'm very pessimistic.

1086
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, you know, in terms of solving

1087
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: these issues and changing it on a macro level. So

1088
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: when all is said and done, is the best thing

1089
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: you can say to people is change your life on

1090
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: a personal level. That developing these bonds and these friendships

1091
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: will somehow bubble up and make the world a kinder,

1092
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: gentler place. To paraphrase George Bush Senior.

1093
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 4: You know, I think we need top down change, Like

1094
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 4: it's very hard to have a calm society when your

1095
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 4: political leaders are ripping it apart, ripping it to shreds

1096
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 4: from the top. But we also need bottom up And

1097
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: when you look at moments in world history where in

1098
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 4: societies have really turned themselves around, and there are examples

1099
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 4: of this and written in the between eighteen thirty and

1100
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 4: eighteen forty eight. In eighteen thirty, it was like a

1101
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 4: totally screwed up society where alcoholism was rampant, domestic violence

1102
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 4: was rampant, poverty and cruelty, and by eighteen forty eight,

1103
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 4: you know, it was suddenly no longer acceptable to get

1104
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 4: drunk and beat your wife the way it was acceptable

1105
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 4: thirty years before that, And so you had the beginnings

1106
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 4: of Victorian morality. And this country between eighteen ninety and

1107
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: nineteen twenty or so, we took a society that was

1108
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 4: pretty brutal, filled with economic uncertainty, and we became a

1109
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 4: much more trusting society. And so you need top down

1110
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 4: political change, like in the our case, the progressive movement

1111
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 4: in nineteen tens, but you also need bottom up civic

1112
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 4: and relational change and cultural change. And so to me,

1113
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 4: you can't have a society at the top with democracy

1114
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 4: if you don't have trust at the bottom. And two

1115
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 4: generations ago, if you ask people do you trust your neighbors,

1116
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 4: it's sixty percent say yeah, people my Neighborho's are pretty trustworthy.

1117
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 4: Now that's down to thirty percent and nineteen percent of

1118
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 4: millennials and Gen Z. And so the only way to

1119
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 4: fix that is trustworthy behavior, showing up for each other,

1120
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 4: having a sense that as I go through my life

1121
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 4: in the casual encounters of life at grocery store, at

1122
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 4: a coffee shop with somebody buying a cash register. There's

1123
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 4: a little hint of recognition with each other, and then

1124
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 4: better relationships with my neighbors, better still relationships with my

1125
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 4: close friends. And so I'm enmeshed in this dance, this

1126
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 4: dance of people who are looking at me and are

1127
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 4: hearing me in big ways in little ways, and then

1128
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 4: you begin to feel calm. Then you really kind of

1129
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 4: establish a trusting work relationship. But it requires those minute,

1130
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 4: daily interactions of life.

1131
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: When I ask the barista, how are you, she says,

1132
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm good, Thank you for asking. I mean, it really

1133
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: only takes very simple interactions to have an open heart

1134
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: and to actually care in big ways but small ways

1135
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: as well, you know, to smile at the person on

1136
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: the street, or I don't know, I've always been that person.

1137
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is about me, but I

1138
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: see part of my job is to make somebody's day

1139
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: a little bit better. And I sound like Shirley Temple

1140
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: right now.

1141
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 4: No, that's why we love you.

1142
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 2: Kaddun with you and you are making so many people.

1143
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: But Kelly, you too, and now David you too. I

1144
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: think it takes a little bit of effort. It takes

1145
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: a second, you know, And John gets mad at me

1146
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: sometimes when people occasionally approach me or they want a

1147
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: selfie or whatever. He says, exit question exit questions, because

1148
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: I do end up sort of hearing their life story

1149
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: in some cases. But I think, you know, if I

1150
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: can make someone happy or feel seen coming back to

1151
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: the book and feel important and they are by the way,

1152
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: I feel like that small amount of effort is so

1153
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: worth it. Plus I don't want them telling their friends

1154
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: I was a real bitch.

1155
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 2: They're sad as well. All altruism is self servey.

1156
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 3: You see, Taylor was riped. It all goes back to swift.

1157
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: Isn't there some great social science around the value of

1158
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 2: weak ties?

1159
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's. First, as Katie was talking, when my youngest

1160
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 4: son was nine, somebody came up to me on the

1161
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 4: street to say that my work whatever. And my son

1162
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 4: looks at me afterwards and said, you know, they come

1163
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 4: for you, but they stay for.

1164
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 3: Me, so right, So right? Is he a stand up?

1165
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 4: He wanted to be at that age he wanted to

1166
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 4: be a stand up.

1167
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny.

1168
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 4: There is. Yeah, the strength of weak ties is like

1169
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 4: if you want a job or you want an opportunity,

1170
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 4: the people you know well know all the things you know,

1171
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 4: but the people you don't know well know things you

1172
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 4: don't know, and so it's it's those weak connections. And conversely,

1173
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 4: you were talking about being nice to the barista. If

1174
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 4: if somebody at a cash register is cruel to me

1175
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 4: or aloof or cold and clearly pissed off at the world,

1176
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 4: it dampens your day. I mean, these these minute interactions

1177
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 4: are weirdly powerful and shaping how you go through, you know, life.

1178
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes I have to nudge myself to look someone right

1179
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: in the eyes, Like I just did it yesterday, taking

1180
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: this oil painting class, and it was the last class,

1181
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 2: and I wanted to thank the instructor, and rather than

1182
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 2: I put a lot of words on it and do

1183
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 2: a big show, I just made sure that I had

1184
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: her eyes, you know, for two or three seconds, and

1185
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 2: I just said thank you so much. I've loved this

1186
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: and it was like a thing like eye contact, like

1187
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: real eye contact. Iyebought eyeball is more rare than I

1188
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 2: wish it was, because it's way more impactful than a

1189
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: whole bunch of words.

1190
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: Well, I love this book, and David, you know, I'm

1191
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: a huge fan.

1192
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 2: And I always have been.

1193
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: I find you're writing more often than not, Like Peggy

1194
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: Noonan's more than a phrase. I find the things you

1195
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: say really profound and really influenced me in a positive way.

1196
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: So I would like to say thank you for all

1197
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: your writing, thank you for being so vulnerable and honest

1198
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: about your desire to grow as a person, because I

1199
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: think all of us want that despite all the societal

1200
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: things that are swirling around us that are actually working

1201
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: against that. And you know, all I can say is

1202
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to see people even more because

1203
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: I think we can always do better at that. And

1204
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm also going to focus on my really

1205
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: deep relationships because I think for me, I have so

1206
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: many friends and so many acquaintances, and because I'm interested

1207
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: in everyone, sometimes I'm spread too thin and I can't

1208
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 1: be a good friend to the people who really really matter.

1209
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: So I think that's important too, because there just aren't

1210
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: enough hours in the day to have this kind of

1211
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: relationship with people.

1212
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that things were of being spread too thin. I

1213
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 4: was just talking to my wife about this, Like, we

1214
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 4: have a friend who her marriage split up, and we

1215
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 4: learned about it a couple weeks so, and we like,

1216
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 4: you should break everything and be there for her at

1217
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 4: that moment. But then we got this obligation in that obligation,

1218
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 4: and so I think we were thinking, you just have

1219
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 4: to be ruthless. Like whatever obligation we're going to have

1220
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 4: to break, we won't remember it, but we will remember

1221
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 4: being there for her at that moment, and I will say,

1222
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 4: it's just such a pleasure to be with you. Guys.

1223
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 4: You guys are the superstars of this skill I'm trying

1224
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 4: to learn. And Katie, where you just did there? Like

1225
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 4: one way one of the things I learned is how

1226
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 4: to end a conversation is you thank somebody for their time,

1227
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 4: but then you specify something you really appreciated they told you,

1228
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 4: and then you say it thanks, it's been great to

1229
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 4: be with you. And when they end the conversation gracefully

1230
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 4: in that way, it's like they put a cherry on

1231
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 4: top you feel. You feel, oh yeah, what they liked

1232
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 4: about me is when I said that interesting thing about

1233
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 4: or told that interesting story and you think, wow, that

1234
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 4: person's a great listener. So another discreete tip on how

1235
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 4: to end conversations gracefully.

1236
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 2: All right, so here's my ending for you. I was

1237
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: gonna say, I don't want it to end go ahead, Kelly.

1238
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:53,959
Speaker 3: I like that you've been willing to.

1239
01:06:55,480 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 2: Modulate in public, Like I think that there's real fear

1240
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 2: of people public figures saying I was wrong or I

1241
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 2: changed my mind, and I think it's to the great

1242
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: detriment of society. Like people should change their mind as

1243
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: new information becomes available, as new evidence surfaces, we should

1244
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: adjust accordingly, of course, And for some reason, it's sort

1245
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 2: of not done with public figures. And the way that

1246
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: your feelings about your party, the Republican Party have evolved

1247
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 2: over time for all of us to see, I think

1248
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 2: is a model for other people whose feelings might similarly

1249
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: be evolving over time. And it's essential that we set

1250
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 2: each other free in this way.

1251
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 3: So thanks, thank you.

1252
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 4: You know, I've always thought politics is a competition between

1253
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 4: partial truths, that in most issues both sides have something right,

1254
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 4: and the key is to try to find the balance

1255
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 4: in that circumstance. And you never, I found you never

1256
01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 4: want to be too especially as a journalist, to be

1257
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 4: too associated with one party or not. And so I

1258
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 4: was conservative. I was never really Republican because I didn't

1259
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 4: want to be part of a team, because that like

1260
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 4: limits your thinking. And now one of my heroes is

1261
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 4: this guy at Philosopher, Isaiah Eberlyn. He said, I'm on

1262
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 4: the right word edge of the left word tendency, and

1263
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 4: so that's where I am these days. I'm on the

1264
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 4: right word edge of the left wore tendency. So happy

1265
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 4: to be there.

1266
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: Oh my god, a whole other podcast about what the

1267
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: hell is happening with the GOP, David, But that'll have

1268
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,719
Speaker 1: to be for your next book or your next column,

1269
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,439
Speaker 1: because what a mess. But we'll lend on a happier note.

1270
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: Good luck with the book, David. I really hope people

1271
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: will read it because I do think it'll improve their lives.

1272
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 1: And are you doing a big book tour? Are you

1273
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: talking to a lot of people? How are you getting

1274
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 1: the word out?

1275
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 4: Yeah? I get to go on a tour of America.

1276
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 4: I tell my musician friends, imagine a rock tour with

1277
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 4: all the fun taken out, and so it's like, I mean,

1278
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 4: the fun part is I get to meet people and

1279
01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 4: give talks and you know, do signings.

1280
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and Kelly, what a treat to

1281
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 2: have you with me anytime.

1282
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 1: David, You're the best. My love to Anne and thank

1283
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: you for writing this book.

1284
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 4: Thank you for doing this. Of course, deeply appreciate both

1285
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 4: of you, LEAs.

1286
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 2: So Kelly, that was so fun. That was so fun.

1287
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:25,759
Speaker 2: I know, I loved it. It was great.

1288
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this with me. I loved that conversation,

1289
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: and I honestly I loved having it with you.

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01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,519
Speaker 2: Well, I'll do it anytime. I loved it too, and

1291
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 2: I love seeing your little face. I was just thinking

1292
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 2: that the one question that we didn't get to fall

1293
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 2: into was the male female side of this, which is

1294
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 2: to say, it's really quite different in terms of potential

1295
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 2: impact for this kind of content to be coming from

1296
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 2: a conservative male columnist rather than say, a female psychologist, right.

1297
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 2: And I was also laughing sometimes when I was reading it.

1298
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 2: I was thinking, Oh, this is going to be so

1299
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 2: funny for Katie and I to be talking to him

1300
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,799
Speaker 2: about this, because you and I are like holding people

1301
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 2: in the supermarket checkout line, you know, because they're telling

1302
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 2: us things on a street corner that he is just

1303
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 2: now learning how to elicit from a person. And I

1304
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: just wonder if many female listeners will agree that we

1305
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:33,840
Speaker 2: have a tremendous amount of practice in this kind of conversation.

1306
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a distinct advantage yeah, and well, I think

1307
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: men are conditioned to keep a type less emotionally attuned

1308
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: to people. So I think I hope men read this book.

1309
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: And although I really think everyone could use it, I

1310
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: think yes, women are I think more emotionally available. Although

1311
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: you can't generalize too much, but I think all of

1312
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 1: us could learn. I mean, I feel like I could

1313
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,280
Speaker 1: be better. And I also think the bottom line of

1314
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: what David talked about, which is kind of captain obvious here,

1315
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: but I'm going to say it anyway, is is ask questions.

1316
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: You know, if you're in a social situation, or you

1317
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: are out on a date or with people. If you

1318
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: ask questions, if you are interested, people love to tell

1319
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: you their story. They love to talk about themselves. And conversely,

1320
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: if somebody doesn't ask you a question, you know, if

1321
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 1: you're out on a date or something, you know, I

1322
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: say this to people I know who are single and

1323
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: the person doesn't ask you a question, check please, because bbye,

1324
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: you know no kind of empathy or interest or curiosity

1325
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 1: about you. So I think whenever you find yourself in

1326
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 1: a sticky situation or you're at a party, just ask

1327
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: questions and everything else will follow. It's so simple. But

1328
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: something that I think people are not necessarily taught. So

1329
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 1: that would be my closing observation and instruction to everyone listening,

1330
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 1: be interested, be curious, and ask questions.

1331
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I would double down on that,

1332
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 2: which is is you're you're like one great question away

1333
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: from something new, Like you're one question away from learning

1334
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 2: something that you don't understand right now, or from a

1335
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 2: feeling that you haven't had in a while, or the

1336
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: beginning of a friendship like it's you're literally.

1337
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 3: One question away.

1338
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 2: It couldn't be simpler or cheaper, and it couldn't be

1339
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 2: more impactful.

1340
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

1341
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1342
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1343
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

1344
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: oh nine five point two five five five, or you

1345
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 1: can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love

1346
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Next Question is a production of

1347
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1348
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Marx,

1349
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:32,919
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1350
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1351
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1352
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1353
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1354
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1355
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1356
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:02,960
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