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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, it is Jen Bessler back with another episode

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Speaker 1: of Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 2: You guys.

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Speaker 1: This one is a lot of things. It's upsetting, it's

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Speaker 1: a nerving and it's also really really sad and actually

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Speaker 1: sort of hits close to my heart. I graduated from

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Speaker 1: the University of Texas at Austin in nineteen ninety and

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine I worked at and I can't

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Speaker 1: believe it's yogurt store. So I know I was freaking

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Speaker 1: out when I watches you guys because the Yogurt Shop Murders,

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Speaker 1: of course, is focused around four girls who were murdered

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Speaker 1: were who were working at a yogurt store in Austin

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 2: Right, So anyway, we are so lucky.

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Speaker 1: The documentary is unbelievable and we have director Margaret Brown

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Speaker 1: here who is going to talk to us and help

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Speaker 1: us to unravel this crazy, unbelievable story.

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Speaker 2: Sad, all of it. But thank you so much. Hi,

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Speaker 2: Hi Margaret, Nice to see you.

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Speaker 3: Nice to see you too. I'm still getting over the

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Speaker 3: fact that you worked and I did what.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not only did I the layout of the store

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Speaker 1: was just like mine. Mine was closer to campus and

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Speaker 1: so I don't know why I didn't remember the story,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I watched the documentary I had like

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Speaker 1: a vague recollection, and I started to freak out and

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Speaker 1: I called my husband. At first, I was the timing.

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Speaker 1: I was like, holy shit, it was crazy and anyway,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, that was that was a little flippy, but

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Speaker 1: even yeah, get me for a minute.

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Speaker 2: This story is crazy and sad and all the things.

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Speaker 2: Tell me.

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Speaker 1: What first drew you to this story? And I know

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Speaker 1: you've done some other beautiful work. What was it about

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Speaker 1: the yogurt chop murders? You know, while he's thirty years

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Speaker 1: later that drew you to it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? It was. I mean, I'm going to still be

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Speaker 3: thinking about what you told me about working there, but

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Speaker 3: I'm going to try to put that in the back

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Speaker 3: of my mind.

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Speaker 2: I'm you can I appreciate it. I won't, but you try.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, definitely. So a few things. My it

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Speaker 3: was it was brought to me by my manager because

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Speaker 3: I lived in Oben, and so I think she thought

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Speaker 3: I would have a personal connection to it. And there

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Speaker 3: were really two things. I looked at the archival footage

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Speaker 3: and it was really like it reminded me of a

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Speaker 3: time in Austin when when I didn't live there, but

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Speaker 3: just like that sort of had been mythologized in my

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Speaker 3: mind of like a time when Austin was kind of

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Speaker 3: a more innocent, different, non techie place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, it was that it was like we were, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, out on sixth Street and swimming in the

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Speaker 1: creek and it was a different scene. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, all that still happens, I think, but

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Speaker 3: like there's a lot of other stuff too, and there's

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Speaker 3: just so many people here now, And I think it

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Speaker 3: was just the footage was so interesting to kind of

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Speaker 3: almost be drawn back into that. That was one part

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Speaker 3: of it. And then another part was just that I

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Speaker 3: had heard about it for so many years living here

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Speaker 3: on and off, and people would talk about it almost

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Speaker 3: like Claire Hughey says in the documentary, like a ghost story.

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Speaker 3: As a young woman, you kind of hear these things

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Speaker 3: and it makes you scared. And and I think I

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Speaker 3: sort of it was like part of the sort of

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Speaker 3: mythos of Austin in a way. So and then there

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Speaker 3: actually are three things. Because my best friend is a

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Speaker 3: she works a lot in the true crime old she's

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Speaker 3: a she's a journalist, and she said to me when

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Speaker 3: I said I was thinking about doing it that she

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Speaker 3: was like, Oh, that's the most complicated case with the

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Speaker 3: most rabbit holes and like the history of Texas, like

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Speaker 3: that is so complicated, you'll never be able to do

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Speaker 3: it in less than ten episodes, And so I kind

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Speaker 3: of took it as a challenge. She's like, it's impossible.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there was more than one time during the

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Speaker 1: film and the documentary where you guys said that's when Austin.

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Speaker 1: People felt like that's when Austin lost its innocence after

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Speaker 1: these mergers, right, which makes sense, and.

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Speaker 2: The girls being so young.

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Speaker 1: And it feeling pointless and it didn't make sense for

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Speaker 1: so long so and not be able obviously to solve

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Speaker 1: it for so many years.

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Speaker 2: I thought, by the way, we'll get there.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that the last episode was added just

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Speaker 1: recently was crazy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was three weeks. I mean, I know, we'll

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Speaker 3: get there, but three weeks after it aired on HBO,

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Speaker 3: the crime was solved.

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Speaker 1: So it was I mean, that is so nuts, I know, right,

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Speaker 1: you know in a central theme of of the documentary

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Speaker 1: is memory, right, and how memory? And I actually I

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Speaker 1: learned a lot myself about how memories are formed, what happens,

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Speaker 1: how your brain searches to connect memories right to things

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Speaker 1: that did happen and things that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: What do you Why do you feel like it was

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Speaker 2: such a central theme.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if it was because of the prosecution

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Speaker 1: of the innocent boys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a lot of it was just the

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Speaker 3: confessions and how they had sort of use the confessions

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Speaker 3: against them to say memory works in a certain way

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Speaker 3: when it actually doesn't. And I learned a lot too

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Speaker 3: making it, like you know, looking at the memory experts

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Speaker 3: that Claire Huey had interviewed over the years, and and

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Speaker 3: and also like you know what the defense attorneys what

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Speaker 3: they had to learn about how memory worked to defend

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Speaker 3: their clients, the boys who work right.

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Speaker 4: So that was super interesting.

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Speaker 3: And also you know how memory works alongside grief. I

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Speaker 3: mean one thing I didn't talk about when and very

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Speaker 3: naive of me, I think when I when I decided

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Speaker 3: I'd never done true crime before, and when I no, no,

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Speaker 3: this was not I kind of make films that are

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Speaker 3: about the American South. I didn't really realize what like

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Speaker 3: the grief aspect of it like what like when I

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Speaker 3: met the families, how much this gets in your body,

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Speaker 3: you know, and how I didn't because I hadn't worked

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Speaker 3: in true crime before. I didn't know like what it

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Speaker 3: was like to sit with family members who had gone

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Speaker 3: through I mean really the most unimaginable thing that could.

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Speaker 4: Have you how to get you to trust them?

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Speaker 3: Also, Yeah, for sure, and and I think that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was. It was quite a lesson like I won't

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Speaker 3: make I won't, I won't do that again, think about

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Speaker 3: like the emotional toll it can have on on telling,

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Speaker 3: you know, telling these kinds of stories, Like I don't

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Speaker 3: know how other true crime directors do, and.

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Speaker 2: I often wonder that myself.

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Speaker 1: And that is what we do hear on Killer Thriller

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Speaker 1: is interview people involved in directors and sometimes even victims

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Speaker 1: or family members, And yeah, I don't it's hard enough

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Speaker 1: just to watch them sometimes, right, Yeah, But there were

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Speaker 1: so many parts of this that I thought were extraordinary

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Speaker 1: things that stuck out to me. You started off this

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Speaker 1: documentary pretty close to the beginning with I believe it's

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Speaker 1: Robert Springsy buying a suit and you know, saying to

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Speaker 1: the salesperson, I just got off of death row. And

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Speaker 1: you also showed at one point one of the classmates

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Speaker 1: talking about how he was so freaky, how I and

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Speaker 1: looking at him, he looked a little scary, just the

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Speaker 1: whole sort of presentation right, the whole way he was

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Speaker 1: moving around Macy's. And the way that maybe he said

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Speaker 1: it to the sales guy freaked me out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really did.

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Speaker 1: And I think also maybe because of what his classmate

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Speaker 1: had said about him, that they couldn't was he a

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Speaker 1: good kid? Was just he was just a scary kid?

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Speaker 1: And how that jump right from that, which is benign?

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Speaker 1: Really who care and what somebody looks like and the

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Speaker 1: way one moves as opposed to them becoming a murderer,

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Speaker 1: that the way I don't know if everything worked against

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Speaker 1: those boys, right, which is so sad and so awful,

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Speaker 1: but especially at the beginning, I was and what I

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Speaker 1: was so surprised by the turn that this the story

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Speaker 1: took because I was convinced myself that these boys did it.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that like these were the

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Speaker 3: kind of kids who like went to Rocky Horror Picture Show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which was huge. Baton you said that in the film.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's when people did that wasn't. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: it was certain I guess it was fringe kids, but

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Speaker 1: it was. My remembrance of it is that it was

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Speaker 1: really cool kids who would get dressed up and do

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Speaker 1: but they weren't like, they weren't dangerous and no.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: But I think at the time, like in Austin, like

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Speaker 3: you know, the cops went after like people in black,

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Speaker 3: Like a bunch of my friends were targeted.

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Speaker 2: Are you seriously got the yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like people. I mean I didn't know that then

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Speaker 3: because I didn't live here. But when I went back

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Speaker 3: and started talking to people who are like in the

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Speaker 3: music scene in Austin, they were like, oh, yeah, everyone

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Speaker 3: we know got pulled in by the cops because they

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Speaker 3: were weirdos, you know. And I think Robert Springsteen and

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Speaker 3: those boys kind of fit that profile, you know.

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Speaker 1: Right, the creek full of it, all right, I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: And honestly it was so that that bias that comes

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Speaker 1: hopefully and then affected, you know, these boys lives. It's

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Speaker 1: just there are so many different parts of this that

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Speaker 1: are tragic. It's the it's the story itself. It's the

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Speaker 1: age of these young girls. It's a mother losing you know,

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Speaker 1: two children and she was still she still was so compassionate.

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Speaker 1: And then there were the other parents that just wanted

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Speaker 1: answers and didn't care. You understood that because their brief

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Speaker 1: was so intense. They're just it was so multi layered,

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Speaker 1: right that I just didn't know who to feel, like,

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Speaker 1: who in this is the good guy?

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Speaker 2: Who's the bad guy? It was just so sad.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think that there's many bad guys

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Speaker 3: here except for obviously a killer. And I think, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I do think that like there's some tunnel

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Speaker 3: vision involved, definitely on the part of the cops. But

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Speaker 3: also I think a lot of the cops are really

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Speaker 3: well meaning and trying to do their job. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I definitely don't. It's really interesting that when I filmed

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Speaker 3: the Airs family talking about how they felt about the boys,

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Speaker 3: and and I think Sean Yers he says he's he

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Speaker 3: is the older brother of the youngest victim Ami, and

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Speaker 3: he says, I, I don't, you know, don't I haven't

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Speaker 3: really gotten to that yet. And I do think it's

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Speaker 3: unfair and and and it's been interesting to watch the

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Speaker 3: response in on social media because people are really judgy

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Speaker 3: about that, and that is not my intention. Because I

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Speaker 3: I really felt like you realize something when you're making

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Speaker 3: this is like you can only process so much at

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Speaker 3: a certain time. And these families had been told by

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Speaker 3: the police for you know, a really long time that

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Speaker 3: these boys did it, and I have to expect them

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Speaker 3: in like two months to I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 3: I think that's a lot to ask.

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Speaker 2: And it was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting because Sonora you know, said to

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Speaker 3: me when she saw the episode, she is the she

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Speaker 3: is the sister of Eliza Thomas, and she's a therapist.

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Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 1: I thought I thought she was her relationship to her sister,

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Speaker 1: the way she blocked out so much of that part

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Speaker 1: of her life. It was so sad hearing about even

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Speaker 1: how they got the information and they just didn't talk

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: They just kept moving awful.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, yes, like so she said to me, I

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Speaker 3: was so relieved to see the errors say that, because

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Speaker 3: I felt like I was bad to not have room

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Speaker 3: for that yet in my heart, to still be grieving

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Speaker 3: my sister. And I just think it's like because we

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Speaker 3: talked about it a lot on theatorial team and like

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Speaker 3: with the with the you know, with the cinematographer and

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Speaker 3: the producer. We were all like, I just think that,

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Speaker 3: like you carry this for so long, because we were

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Speaker 3: sort of shocked at first as well that like literally

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Speaker 3: all the family members were like, I haven't gotten to

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Speaker 3: that yet, but it just seems like that's just sort

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Speaker 3: of how humans mostly work, you know, But I try not.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely don't judge that, like, and I

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Speaker 3: was really surprised at how people who you know on

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Speaker 3: the internet, who hadn't gone through something like that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm not surprised, but I was saddened by the

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Speaker 3: fact that, like people were so quick to judge them.

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Speaker 2: You know what it was. I don't judge them for anything.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I was sad.

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Speaker 1: There was so much sadness that I had first for them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if it's a contest, which it is not,

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Speaker 1: daughters died, right, and then these boys that were wrongfully

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Speaker 1: accused so that spent years in jail.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is so overwhelmingly sad. And sometimes I

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Speaker 1: feel like when you there's no place to put any

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Speaker 1: blame and there's this is just what it is. I

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Speaker 1: think probably don't have room to take it all in,

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Speaker 1: as I did feel so sick for those boys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of course I feel sick for them too. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I definitely I remember when they found the killer, the

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Speaker 3: real killer, because I never really thought the boys did it,

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Speaker 3: Like I wondered, but I just with all the evidence

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Speaker 3: or no evidence, like no real concrete evidence and their

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Speaker 3: DNA not matching, come on, you know, but I still

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Speaker 3: wondered because I didn't know who it was, and like,

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Speaker 3: you know, there are some weird similarities, but they were

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Speaker 3: so small compared to the lack of evidence that I

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Speaker 3: really didn't think they did it. And but to have

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Speaker 3: that hanging over you and knowing you didn't do it,

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Speaker 3: and for this long and knowing, like you know, the

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Speaker 3: gun doesn't match, Like there's all these things that like,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're not we're not good, you know, we're

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Speaker 3: not good things to like basically set someone up and

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Speaker 3: convince them that they murdered somebody.

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Speaker 1: Talk about memory and the fact that these prosecutors and

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Speaker 1: these they could actually plant memories in the minds of

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Speaker 1: these boys that were not there, and that.

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Speaker 2: Was so scary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the struggle to kind of reach back into their

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Speaker 1: memory because they believed that these were the good guys, right,

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Speaker 1: that the people that were interrogating them, and I understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean I think that, like I didn't

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Speaker 3: know before I made this that cops could lie to you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't either. I've heard it. It's not true.

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Speaker 1: Recently in another documentary that we did, we talked about it.

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Speaker 1: But it seems so crazy, right, like right, and back

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Speaker 1: in the day, not knowing just to say, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer,

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Speaker 1: like right, that's the only thing you're supposed to say.

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Speaker 3: It's the only thing. And now I know why. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, it's it's it's an interesting legal system that

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Speaker 3: we have here in this country. But I you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm I yeah, I just to go back to what

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Speaker 3: you said about just how much you felt for the boys,

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Speaker 3: Like I the minute it was solved, I was like

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Speaker 3: that that I have to talk to them. I have

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Speaker 3: to see And we didn't have much time, like HBO

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Speaker 3: wanted us to finish that last episode like yesterday. Like

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Speaker 3: at first they were like, just make a coda, and

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Speaker 3: then it turned into an hour and a half episode.

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Speaker 3: You know, but because it was so interesting, there were

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Speaker 3: so many like things to look at that like, you know,

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Speaker 3: we knew we had we had two days to set

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Speaker 3: up the first shoot. When we found out that, you know,

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Speaker 3: they they had found who did it, that.

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Speaker 2: Must have freaked you out. I want to know what

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Speaker 2: that was like when you got that phone call.

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Speaker 3: Well, the news was leaked to me and and I

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Speaker 3: was driving, I was leaving Austin to go make another movie,

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Speaker 3: and I had met with Dan Jackson, who was the

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Speaker 3: detective who solved it a few days before that, and

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Speaker 3: he was acting really shifty, and I knew something was

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Speaker 3: up because we've met so many times and there was

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Speaker 3: always like something he was following up with, and so

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Speaker 3: there were many times he was like, we might have something,

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Speaker 3: and then it never was anything. But this time his

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Speaker 3: body language was different, and I was like, he was shifty.

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Speaker 3: He was like fidgeting, like he wanted to tell me something,

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Speaker 3: because we at this point, like I knew him really well,

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Speaker 3: like we've been working together for years and you know,

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Speaker 3: and I could tell there was something he was like

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Speaker 3: really wanted to tell me, and I was like, but

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to push him because he said something again,

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Speaker 3: he said, this is something. If it's real, I have

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Speaker 3: to tell the families first, and I was like, he's

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Speaker 3: never said that before, and so I didn't push him

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Speaker 3: because I also really feel for the families, and I

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Speaker 3: was I think Dan is a moral person, and I

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Speaker 3: felt like, all right, I'm not going to push him.

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Speaker 3: That seems like a good line to draw, you know,

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Speaker 3: So I just was like okay, and then I said, well,

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Speaker 3: is it okay for me to leave? Like is this

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Speaker 3: going to happen in the next few days, because like

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Speaker 3: I am, I am leaving Austin. I'm like getting in

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Speaker 3: my car, I'm driving my dog to another city, you know,

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Speaker 3: like tell me, tell me the deal. And he was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: you can leave, and so I left and then two

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Speaker 3: days later solved. But I don't think he knew that.

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Speaker 2: Like it was a sure thing.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, he definitely didn't know. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think he knew at that point. And you should

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Speaker 3: talk to him if if that's part of this that

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Speaker 3: you want to do, because you know, I think he

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Speaker 3: really he really did want to tell me. But I

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Speaker 3: think he was Righty, this is something you have to

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Speaker 3: tell these families. First. They have been known who did

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Speaker 3: it for thirty four years. He shouldn't tell me, you know.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like if that hadn't happened the How

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Speaker 1: do you feel like your viewers would have been left

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Speaker 1: off without the fifth episode? What do you think that

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Speaker 1: most of them? How do you think most of them

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Speaker 1: would have felt.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think, you know, for three weeks everyone

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Speaker 3: felt it, but like I think what the way that

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Speaker 3: it ended before was just about how a lot of

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure for your show, not everything gets solved,

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Speaker 3: you know, And how do you live with uncertainty? How

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Speaker 3: do you live with never knowing? There's so many things

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Speaker 3: in life that are like that. And you know, when

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Speaker 3: I took this job, I took it. I never thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to solve our murder. That's like so arrogant,

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Speaker 3: you know. I thought, like, I'm going to look into this.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to figure out what it is about this.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting to me. And eventually what was interesting to

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Speaker 3: me was, you know, we all as humans, like, no

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Speaker 3: one has escapes grief. You know, people you love die,

362
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 3: things are horrible, Yeah, no, yeah exactly. So I thought, like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this thing that happened to these people is one of

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Speaker 3: the worst things that can happen to anyone, And what

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Speaker 3: if this show is an examination of how you deal

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Speaker 3: with the unknowable, the unspeakable. Like, so it became sort

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Speaker 3: of to me and the reason I made it, because

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Speaker 3: for everything I make, it had there has to be

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Speaker 3: like a reason, you know, I don't, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I didn't. I'm not interested in like the mechanics of

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Speaker 3: solving crimes as much as I am about human emotions.

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Speaker 3: And so for me, the who'd done it was never

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Speaker 3: as interesting as all the psychological whys and hows and

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Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah, exactly, So like so you understand, I

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Speaker 3: didn't think. I didn't think that it would be a

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Speaker 3: waste of a show in any way because I still

377
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Speaker 3: get to ask these deeply human questions like these are

378
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Speaker 3: the things that like our lives revolve around. So for me,

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Speaker 3: the last episode became about what happens when you go

380
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Speaker 3: from uncertainty to certainty, and so that was like what

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Speaker 3: it you know, with the boys, with the families and

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Speaker 3: with the case. So that's sort of how I built

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Speaker 3: the fifth episode because I felt like the way the

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Speaker 3: series ended before, I mean, it was to me, it

385
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Speaker 3: was it was, it was a full thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I just it's hard to picture it without

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Speaker 1: the fifth episode just as a viewer.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the documentary is.

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Speaker 1: The true crime documentaries that I really get the most

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Speaker 1: out of are ones where I watch, you know, the victims'

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Speaker 1: families or whoever they've left behind, the way that they

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Speaker 1: respond to such horror. But then also the resiliency, right,

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Speaker 1: and how watching a mother who lost two daughters, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and still held on to such love and kindness in

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Speaker 1: her heart.

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Speaker 2: That's the way.

397
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Speaker 1: I mean, it was just that part is unreal to me,

398
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Speaker 1: and that's I feel like it's not this was not

399
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: just about you know, the horror of what happened. It's

400
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: about it was about the human condition, right, and then

401
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 1: also examining, examining though our process, our due process, and

402
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Speaker 1: I don't know how it stands now and what laws

403
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,959
Speaker 1: have changed or going to change in terms of prosecutors

404
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: being able to lie to try to set people up.

405
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Speaker 1: And that's the yeah, well the first but but the

406
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Speaker 1: first prosecutor, Hector Blanco, Yes, I don't know where he

407
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: is today, still lives in athe he does, but I

408
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: mean he was sort of taking down and I feel

409
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Speaker 1: like so his protocol was you know, definitely railed, against

410
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 1: which I appreciate.

411
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Speaker 4: Oh, you need to show right, he.

412
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Speaker 2: Was taken off the case, right because.

413
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Speaker 3: He's for sure, Yeah he got multiple confessions from multiple people.

414
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: Come on, you know, which doesn't right.

415
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Speaker 1: So, but that idea that somebody is so good because

416
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Speaker 1: they can evoke a confession that's not even right, just

417
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Speaker 1: so scary all of that.

418
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Speaker 2: But I like this examined that right, like you didn't.

419
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Speaker 2: There was so much to it.

420
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Speaker 1: There was so much about of course the heartache and

421
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: the trauma, but then also sort of insight into what

422
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: happens when something like this happens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I it's horrific. And actually there is

424
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 3: an investigation. I don't know where it stands right now,

425
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 3: but I do know that there's people are realizing he

426
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: got a lot of confessions, and not just in the

427
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 3: yogurt shot murders. Really oh yeah, there's an investigation into

428
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: him in Austin right now. I'm not sure where it stands.

429
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Speaker 1: Wow, that is I mean so like that's a perfect

430
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Speaker 1: example of you know, not just looking at what happened,

431
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: but making a difference. And that's I see the families

432
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Speaker 1: of the victims doing that all the time, and all

433
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Speaker 1: these different documentaries there inspiring me.

434
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Speaker 2: I'm just amazed by.

435
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: It is amazing I was amazed when when Barbara, the

436
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 3: mother of the two girls that were that were killed,

437
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 3: she said, I wonder what happened to the killer when

438
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 3: he was young? Was he held enough? And I was like,

439
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 3: whoa unreal?

440
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: Unreal?

441
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: And then I think about you know, Maurice and Forrest,

442
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: and are you in contact with.

443
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: Any of Yeah, of course no. The so I don't

444
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: know if you know this, but there was a settlement

445
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: for I believe it's thirty I'm I can't believe. I

446
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: can't remember this right now. I think it's thirty five

447
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 3: million dollars that's going to the boys. It could be

448
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 3: twenty five. And the day that went down, forrest mom,

449
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: Sharon contacted me and she was like, I was. I

450
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 3: was in New York at the time and working, and

451
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 3: she was like, do you want to come to Forest Bar?

452
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: Like I'm making cookies for everyone at the bar, and

453
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 3: I'm like God, she was like, come so celebrate with us.

454
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 3: And then I spoke to Forrest and it had not

455
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 3: hit him. He he was like, I was like, hey,

456
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: are you going to go on vacation? Because he was

457
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: always working a ton. He was always at the bar,

458
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 3: and that bar is a place we don't really go

459
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: into it, but that bar is definitely a place where,

460
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: like you know, his mom like makes soup for everybody

461
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: one night of the week, and it's a place where

462
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 3: people who don't have anywhere to go for holidays, like

463
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: they cook for them. It's like really a good vibe

464
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 3: at that bar and real Yeah, and and so they've

465
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 3: just they've been really nice to me. And I know that,

466
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 3: uh that I think the settlement has not moved forward

467
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: completely and I could be I'm not sure. Again, this

468
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 3: was like a few weeks ago that I heard this,

469
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 3: because I think that some of the family members will

470
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 3: not accept the money until you should check this, but

471
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: I heard from very reputable sources they wouldn't accept the

472
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: money until like some changes were made. So I don't

473
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 3: really stands either. Yeah, so yeah, it's interesting.

474
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: How are they living.

475
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: I don't underst I mean all of all of the families,

476
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: and not just you know, the boys' families, the girls' families.

477
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: And you think to yourself, I don't know how they're

478
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 1: going on. I don't know if I if I in

479
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: fact could go on right. So I am really interested

480
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: you were able to show us, you know, the I

481
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: don't even know. So I don't know if it's brave

482
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: or just the resilience of the parents, right of these girls,

483
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: but then also the families of the boys, and how

484
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: are they going on? They still did, they still care?

485
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: It is with them, of course they do.

486
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, because some people still think they did it, Like

487
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: I think that that businessn't just go away overnight, like

488
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 3: not everyone has seen the documentary and people in Austin

489
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: have thought so long that they did it. And you know,

490
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: like that's why Robert Springsteen left, you know, and like

491
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 3: I think it's it's something that always hangs over you.

492
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: And Forrest is surrounded by I was able to witness

493
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 3: that Forrest is surrounded by a lot of love and

494
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 3: that made me happy. But it's still as you see

495
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: in the show, like was it just damaged him so

496
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 3: deeply because anytime he tried to get in a relationship

497
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 3: he had to tell.

498
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: Whoever he was right, it wasn't this burder over him? Yeah,

499
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: and what would we do?

500
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: And if my daughter said, Mom, I'm I.

501
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: Just could die. So I know it's how you do

502
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: with that. I don't think there's a right thing, No,

503
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: I mean, you.

504
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: Know, I think like I don't know if I'd be

505
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 3: able to date someone that I thought, well, they probably

506
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: didn't do it, but no, yeah, you would always have

507
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 3: that question.

508
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: Now it's just so awful. Yeah, does he manage that?

509
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: Now?

510
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: How do they manage it?

511
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Now?

512
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I haven't gone down to the

513
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: I've only been back in Austin a few weeks. I

514
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: haven't gone onto the bar to celebrate with them, but

515
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: but it but I plan on it, like just going

516
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: down there to see how everyone's doing, and no one

517
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 3: else lives in Austin, so and also, like usually it's

518
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 3: I feel really grateful because we made the fifth episode

519
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: so quickly that the families, you know, that we were

520
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: able to speak to Maurice's family even though he's passed,

521
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 3: and we were able to speak to Forrest, and I

522
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: spoke a bit to Mike Scott at the exoneration hearing.

523
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: But I never Robert Springsteen. I think it's just too

524
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: traumatized to want to talk to a film crew. But

525
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: it's just so interesting because you you know, I mean,

526
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: usually you have time to like talk to these people

527
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: and get to know them. But that was just so

528
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: quick and and I feel sort of the same way

529
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: about the in terms of like, you know, the families

530
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: we we for the fifth episode, we interviewed them right

531
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: after all this happened, like they were all still in shock.

532
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: I remember asking Sonora Thomas, the sister, younger sister of Eliza,

533
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: asking her, like, you know, should we be talking to

534
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: you right now? And she was like absolutely not, like

535
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: you know the place the families need time to recover

536
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: after this and everyone right now, like when something like

537
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: this happens, you just bring them like you know casse

538
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: Roles for a year, like she was basically like talked

539
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: to us.

540
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: And it was also yeah, it was really she was

541
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: captivating and I think partially because she is a therapist now.

542
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 4: Right, yes, she's a therapist.

543
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: So what I also thought that you did really beautifully.

544
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's so much footage of these girls when

545
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: they were young, but the footage that you chose specifically

546
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: just now I'm thinking about Sonora and Eliza and them

547
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: kissing and Eliza and all she like feel myself getting

548
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: choked up because I remember watching that relationship and how

549
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: you know, Eliza was so loving with her little sister, right,

550
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: you were able to kind of showcase that, which I

551
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: thought was so great because a lot of times, you know,

552
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: you obviously you watch these true crime docs and you

553
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: see the human the humans in it, but it's not, Oh,

554
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: you always capture that much of a personal moment. I

555
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: find that when I'm watching it, that kind of thing

556
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: always strikes me, right, makes me feel like I knew Eliza.

557
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: I'm glad. Yeah, I know it was Actually there wasn't

558
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: a whole lot of footage of them, so it was

559
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: kind of a struggle too, and I remember like, yeah,

560
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: we had a hard time, so that's one of But

561
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: you're right, that moment is really you feel their connection

562
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: in combination with the way that that Sonora talks about

563
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: her sister and makes that I mean, Sonora is a

564
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: beautiful writer, and she's writing a book about all of

565
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 3: this right now, a memoir, So I think her her

566
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: speaking about it, all of the families speaking about it

567
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: really make it come alive, are they?

568
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: I mean that they've all seen Yes, they've all seen it. Okay,

569
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: everyone's seen it.

570
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 3: I don't think Barbara's seen the last episode. It's really

571
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: hard for her, but she might have, but I know

572
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: that when it came out she didn't watch it right away.

573
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: How do you think do you think that it helped?

574
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know if anything helps when your children

575
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: are murdered, but like, was it cathartic? Do you think

576
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: for them? Was it? How did they all react to it?

577
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: Do they have different reactions?

578
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: I think you should. I mean, I would never speak

579
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: for someone who had not said anything like that to

580
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: me explicitly. So Noorra has said to me explicitly that

581
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: this helped her. But I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking for

582
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: anyone else because I wouldn't want paraphraise. It's such a

583
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: sensitive topic.

584
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: But they all agreed to it. They wanted their story,

585
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: one of the girl's stories, Well.

586
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: They wanted it to be solved, first of all. And

587
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: I'm sure having an HBO series around the Cris, I

588
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: mean obviously, you know, yeah, of course it brings attention

589
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: to it and then so I think they wanted that

590
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: for sure. But yeah, I mean, they these families had

591
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: been in the media so much. I know that the

592
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: heirs parents, you know, Sean and Angie kind of took

593
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: over for them, like they kind of had it like

594
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: Pam and Bob. You know, they had been on the

595
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: media front lines for so long that you know, I

596
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: think it was just it's so hard for them. And

597
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 3: I remember, I mean the moment I really realized what

598
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 3: I'd stuck, what I'd sort of stepped into, was the

599
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: first day. The first day of interviews for me was

600
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: with Pam, Bob Angie, and Sean, And I remember I

601
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 3: interviewed Bob first, and the first thing he said was

602
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: the kind of the first thing in the dock after

603
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: Robert Springsteen at the mall, he says the number of years,

604
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: months and days since his daughter had been murdered.

605
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I know that. Yeah, that blew me away too.

606
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. And in those kind of moments, you're kind of like, oh,

607
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: this is not going to be an easy project, like

608
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, and it was. It was something. I mean,

609
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 3: this is sort of something I at first I said

610
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 3: wrong when I spoke about the show, but I do

611
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: want to keep saying it because I think it's important,

612
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: which is that like A twenty four, at a certain point,

613
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 3: it was clear that like kind of the secondary trauma

614
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: from making a show for like this was really affecting

615
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: the crew specifically, Yeah, the editorial team and they they

616
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: I remember one of the executives I told her who

617
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: I was pretty close to I said, I told her that, like,

618
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: you know, I think we need therapy or people are

619
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: going to start quitting because they can't really sit with

620
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: this like that, you know, because it was just so

621
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: and and that the reason I hesitate saying it is

622
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: because the headlines became, like know, Emma Stone's documentary, because

623
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: she's one of the producers. You know, they had to

624
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: get therapy for the whole crew, which is not the

625
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: headline or shouldn't be because it's really about the families.

626
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: Right. Of course the victims are the of course, but

627
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: I haven't heard a filmmaker say that before to me podcast,

628
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: that the crew was struggling.

629
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, it was.

630
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: It was so hard to Also, it's how I work

631
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 3: with the same people over and over and we do

632
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: make things a certain way, and it's and so I

633
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: think part of it is just like we really sat

634
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 3: with it, and we were going deep into the stuff

635
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: that you're interested in too, which is like the real

636
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: human parts of it. And you can't sit in trauma

637
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 3: all day long and not have it affect you. It's

638
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 3: just not how we're wired.

639
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely true. I think doing you know,

640
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: Killer Thriller, it has definitely affected me. Cour I spent

641
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: a lot of time now watching uh, horrific acts of

642
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: violence and you know, murder, and you know, but it's

643
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: not just I'm thinking about what you're talking about in

644
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: terms of the crew, but I think also about even

645
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: the investigators and yeah, their lives that they're yeah, and

646
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: how their lives unraveled.

647
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: There's a reason that like, like cops have really high

648
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 3: suicide rates. And I think that they pushed stuff down

649
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: a lot, you know. And I think that I know

650
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 3: that John Jones and and and Mike Hackabee, like they

651
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: got really close to the families and it had a

652
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: detrimental effect on their health and their marriages.

653
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: Right, well, their marriages they so he got Mike Jones

654
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: got divorced.

655
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, John Jones got divorced.

656
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: Sorry John Jones, excuse me? Talking about the different.

657
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 5: Symptoms of depression PTSD, right, and then watching also because

658
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 5: you showcased his sweet family, yeah at the of it, right,

659
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 5: and his adorable you know, relationship with his daughter, and

660
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 5: you see that, and then to hear that they're divorce

661
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 5: and that he's taken so much of this and I

662
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 5: don't know, you know, obviously we don't know the details

663
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 5: of that, all of the details.

664
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: But that clearly, he was very clear that this has.

665
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: Taken a toll on his life, and that's, as you know,

666
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: an investigator.

667
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: No, they all like, they all deal with it in

668
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: different ways. It was really interesting just to see that.

669
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 3: And I was not like the biggest fan of Cops

670
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: before I made this, but then to see how you know,

671
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: I mean there's people like Polanco, but there's also people

672
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: like John Jones.

673
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: I know, he Oh my god, I felt I felt

674
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: for him and for Huck and what a character.

675
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: Is amazing yet amazing amazing.

676
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: They both are amazing. They weren't just doing their jobs.

677
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: This there's a whole movie that could just be made

678
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 3: about Huck. Yes, Bug told me stuff that just his

679
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: whole life. He's he's a full on character, nothing to

680
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 3: do with the yogurt shut murders, but he's extremely good storyteller,

681
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: just An tell you know, the type of text storyteller.

682
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was captivated by him absolutely. And John Jones,

683
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: I mean all of everyone you showcased, I.

684
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: Know, well, I was really lucky because I mean Bob

685
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: AerR is like, oh my gosh, he's such and Sean

686
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 3: and I mean all of them. I shouldn't pick any.

687
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: Yes, but what about those those amateur sleuths?

688
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: What is going on there?

689
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: I don't know what didn't happen in there.

690
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: I was sort of like, wait, so this is not

691
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: just like a book club. People are really trying to

692
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: solve promets?

693
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 2: And are they helping me? It looks like they are.

694
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know.

695
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't shoot that footage. There was there

696
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: was a production before me. I did not shoot that

697
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 3: footage of them trying to tell it. I felt like,

698
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 3: you know, it is what you saw. We were just

699
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: like when we saw the footage, we were like, wait

700
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 3: a minute, satanic panic. Wasn't that like in the nineties.

701
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 3: I don't know why you're still thinking that, but it was.

702
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 3: I just think it to me, I don't know what

703
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 3: that was, but we felt it was important to include

704
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: because it sort of shows the whole world of true

705
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: crime and a.

706
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: Lot of that going on.

707
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: In the world of true crime. There is a there

708
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: are online as. I mean, you know this, but networks

709
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: and people that are spending their time investigating amateur investigators.

710
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes it helps for sure. So yeah, and I

711
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: think I think the danger that I wanted to show

712
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: because I also agree like, yeah, sometimes they solve it,

713
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: so you can't just be completely dismissive. But I do

714
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 3: think there's another side to it, which is like these

715
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: families are desperate and they want answers, and if the

716
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 3: you know, if the if the if police departments are

717
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 3: not gonna respond, they're gonna look for outside help. And

718
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: if there's people that you know, are going to promise

719
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: them results and try to help them, and there's a

720
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 3: whole team of amateur sleuths, like I can't understand from

721
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: an emotional standpoint, being desperate and wanting to do that. Yeah,

722
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 3: I feel like that's sort of what I got out

723
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 3: of that was just the feeling of not getting answers

724
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: and the desperation. And I think, you know, Angie Airs,

725
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: I think like really wanted to help her husband get

726
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: some answers, you know, and this was like something that

727
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: she and Sean decided to purs.

728
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: She was not playing, he was right playing.

729
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, this was something that

730
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: they didn't feel like at the time that the police.

731
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 3: This was before Dan came on and before I started

732
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 3: making it, and they did not feel like they were

733
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: getting any attention from from the Austin APD. I mean

734
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 3: in defense of the APD. It had been over thirty years,

735
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: so you know, it's a cold case. There's a lot

736
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 3: of a lot less cold cases, so you know. But

737
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 3: I think that you know, you're going to advocate for

738
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 3: your family and solving an unsolved pain in your family,

739
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: and I think that's what Angie was trying to do.

740
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 3: There's two sides to it. Sometimes these like amateur sleuths,

741
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 3: like really, yes, they find things, and other times I

742
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: think it's it looks like praying on people who are

743
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: just desperate for answers.

744
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: Right, So we had we're working on another documentary now

745
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: and that whole network is really in just and it is.

746
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: They do take it seriously, and I think there is

747
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: definitely there. Undoubtedly there are people that are taking advantage,

748
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: just like when people are sick and dying and you know,

749
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: desperate and exactly, Yeah, food is circle, So I can

750
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: see that that's sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But

751
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: I think that if I was desperate, I would turn

752
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: to whomever would you know, offer me help and course,

753
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: but it is it's like a it's a it's probably

754
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: tricky to figure out like.

755
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: Who you can trust and like it's just so emotional

756
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 3: and yeah, I would never, I would never. I mean

757
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: it's such a gray zone because you do see these

758
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: cases of when these amateur sleuths find things.

759
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: You know what, that's a documentary right there. And I

760
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: don't think you want to do any more true crime.

761
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you.

762
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 4: That in a second.

763
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: But that's an interesting like to study the amateurs. And

764
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: I am not a filmmaker, but I would be very

765
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 1: interested in watching a film about does this help, does

766
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: it work, when does it work.

767
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 3: And when does it hurt?

768
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are times it probably gets the way

769
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: of investigations.

770
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 3: I know that there were definite times when, like we

771
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: were speaking to Shila, that's the name, and I think

772
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: the investigators were like, do not talk to her? Like

773
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 3: they're definitely like they don't, you know, not always sometimes

774
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: they work with with the PI people, but like a

775
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 3: lot of the times, the APD or I think any

776
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 3: police department just wants to separate it. So that was

777
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: It's been a minute, but that's kind of what I remember.

778
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so Mart, you don't think you'll keep doing

779
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: true crime.

780
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: It depends on the piece like I mean, I think

781
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: like I think of you know, I like to tell stories,

782
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: I guess and I but I do think that like

783
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 3: this one took a lot out of me and maybe

784
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 3: someone who hasn't done it yet do it like cause

785
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: I I you know, I have like so many ideas

786
00:42:58,480 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 3: in life.

787
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: Short I wonder what it's it takes like because there

788
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: are so many filmmakers and this is what they do.

789
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: They do true crime right right?

790
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: Yes, a genre.

791
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I never thought it was going to

792
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: be podcasting about true crime. But I am obsessed now,

793
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: I have to say, And I sometimes I'm a little

794
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: embarrassed by that.

795
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: Why are you embarrassed?

796
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: Because I feel as if sometimes I am how could

797
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: you enjoy anything about this?

798
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 4: Right?

799
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: It's just all watching there are but again, like even

800
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: with in.

801
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: This case, watching what's happening and what investigators are sometimes

802
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: not all of them, hopefully you know very few, but

803
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: are you know false confessionals and moving the needle forward

804
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: in terms of getting it right?

805
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: That is all that.

806
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: I love that part of it, and I think it's

807
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: a beautiful job of raising awareness here. But I do

808
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm watching true crime now and I'm mesmerized and I

809
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: don't know, do you have any of that, like I.

810
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely think that I never i'd see

811
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: some true crime, like I watched The Jinks and I

812
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: watched The Staircase, but it wasn't like it's hard to say.

813
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely it's not that I'm avoiding it.

814
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: It's just that like I did this for like kind

815
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 3: of personal reasons that I live in Austin, and I

816
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 3: thought an Austin filmmaker. Maybe I'm not an essentialist at all,

817
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 3: but I thought, maybe it's good if an Austin filmmaker.

818
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: But honestly, I was traveling with another movie and wasn't

819
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 3: really thinking about it that much. Like I just was like,

820
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 3: this archival footage is good. My best friend says that

821
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: this is a really fascinating case. And I didn't really

822
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: I didn't think about the trauma. It's so naive, Like

823
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: I didn't think about what it would take me emotionally

824
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 3: to do this kind of work. But I don't think

825
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 3: you should feel guilty about it, because I think that women,

826
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: particularly like we are. I mean, there's been studies done

827
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: on this and Sheila actually, who the PI who's in

828
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: the show, has a podcast about this, and she told me,

829
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: and I think she's right that, like women kind of

830
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 3: are drawn to this because it's sort of like, you know,

831
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 3: women are aggressed upon, and it's a way for you

832
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 3: to sort of think of ways, maybe subconsciously that you

833
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: would prevent it from happening to you.

834
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 2: Were not saying that is so interesting.

835
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think that she's maybe onto something there.

836
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: She said her podcast was listened to by ninety percent women.

837
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: It was like eighty to ninety percent women, And that

838
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: really stuck with me that like, well, women, why are

839
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: women more interested in this? Like you got to ask yourself.

840
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: And I'm constantly learning.

841
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm not always facts that I love, but I'm finding

842
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: out that you are. And I don't remember the exact

843
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: percentage twenty times more likely to be murdered if you're

844
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 1: pregnant or something.

845
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: That is so right, like these crazy statistics.

846
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: That come up from from watching true crime, And you're right,

847
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: maybe it is. There is like that part of the

848
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: brain that's like, well, if I know I have all

849
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: this knowledge, I can somehow control it won't happen to me,

850
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: won't happen to my kids?

851
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: I don't know, No, like I you know, I had

852
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 3: a partner at the time, and I made the show,

853
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 3: and I still got like a I've never had a

854
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: security system in my house, but like I got one,

855
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 3: you know.

856
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 2: I like one because of doing this.

857
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: Yes, I started thinking about Yeah, I started thinking about

858
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 3: things differently.

859
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 2: Holy, that's a lot, I.

860
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: Know, I started. It reframes your brain. I started having

861
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 3: these weird dreams.

862
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: And how many times can you watch the positioning of

863
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: the girls and that it's without just you know, losing it.

864
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 3: Well, I just think about the parents having to Yes,

865
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: that's what I think about, Yeah, like having the same thing. Yeah,

866
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 3: it's I mean, whenever I think about how hard it

867
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: is for me, I think about how much harder it

868
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: must be for the families, you know, like it's just

869
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: and for the boys to be just framed that I mean,

870
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: because it is the kind of thing. And I think

871
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: I'm relating to you saying you feel bad about it,

872
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 3: because you know, I feel bad feeling bad about my

873
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 3: own secondary trauma because I'm like, well, fuck, like, I

874
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: mean I feel bad, like look at what happened to them,

875
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: Like I'm not allowed to feel bad.

876
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, right, I mean that's listen, I've been

877
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: in therapy for thirty years or something.

878
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,919
Speaker 2: I feel bad about everything, So that's for another episode. Yeah,

879
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 2: I don't know, my friend, I think you're really good

880
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: at this. I think maybe you should. It's not a

881
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: because you don't always get the you know, the humanity.

882
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 4: Coming to it.

883
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, well maybe this will inspire people to do

884
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: it with more humanity. I don't know. That sounds really arrogant.

885
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: Well I said it first, so.

886
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 3: But but I yeah, I mean I think I might

887
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: do it. It just depends on if I thought I

888
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 3: could handle it a and do a good job and

889
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 3: that I could live with the story for that long.

890
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: And also because I work with the same people over

891
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: and over, I have to think about my crew and

892
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: like do I want to put them through this. I

893
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: got approached recently to make something you know that if

894
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 3: I hadn't made this, I would have considered that sort

895
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: of in this genre. But I just thought about my

896
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 3: crew and how much they went through making it, and

897
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 3: I was like, I can't. They'll kill me, Like, no,

898
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 3: I can't do that right now.

899
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever asked this before, but

900
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, and you don't have to answer. I

901
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: don't know if you can what you're working on now.

902
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: I actually can't say.

903
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very fascinated by you, my friend.

904
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's an interesting one, that's for sure. It's

905
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 3: I'm completely obsessed with it.

906
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, you're doll. Thank you, Okay, sure, thank

907
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: you so much