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Speaker 1: And Arthur went as far as esquier Orvo in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: to the place where the boar Troweth was with his

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Speaker 1: seven young pigs, and the dogs were let loose upon

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Speaker 1: him from all sides. That day until evening the Irish

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Speaker 1: fought with him. Nevertheless, he laid waste the fifth part

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Speaker 1: of Ireland. And on the day following the household of

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Speaker 1: Arthur fought with him, and they were worsted by him

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Speaker 1: and got no advantage. And the third day Arthur himself

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Speaker 1: encountered him, and he fought with him nine nights and

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Speaker 1: nine days, without so much as killing even one little pig.

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Speaker 1: The warriors inquired of Arthur what was the origin of

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Speaker 1: that swine, and he told them that he was once

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Speaker 1: a king, and that God had transformed him into a

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Speaker 1: swine for his sins.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: part two in our Halloween season series called Hogs of Hell.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: In the previous episode, we focused mostly on mythology and fiction,

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Speaker 3: looking at a glorious assortment of monster pigs, bielsa, bores,

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Speaker 3: and also a few rather benevolent divine suiform beings of

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Speaker 3: various types. So in terms of specific examples, we talked

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Speaker 3: about everything from the vicious, shaggy, froth jawed Aromanthian boar

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Speaker 3: which was captured by Hercules in Greek myth, to the

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Speaker 3: noble and heroic pig featured incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu,

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Speaker 3: who retrieves the earth when it is rolled up and

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Speaker 3: stolen away to the ocean depths by a great demon.

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Speaker 3: And here we are again today to keep the monster

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Speaker 3: pig parade on the March.

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Speaker 1: And indeed, in the last episode we did talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about King Arthur battling various bores across the

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Speaker 1: British Isle. So I wanted to at the top of

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Speaker 1: this episode throwing just a little quote that gives you

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Speaker 1: a taste of that, though it doesn't really reference all

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Speaker 1: the gorings that also take place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like how it says the warriors were like, hey, Arthur,

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Speaker 3: we've been fighting this pig and it's worsting us. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if it was like different than being bested

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Speaker 3: by a pig, to be worsted by a pig but

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Speaker 3: it's besting all the nights and they're like, Arthur, where

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Speaker 3: did this pig come from? And Arthur is like, well,

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Speaker 3: this pig was once a king, but he was a

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Speaker 3: bad king, not like me.

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Speaker 1: I have to question his management style a little bit

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Speaker 1: for not like fully briefing everyone on the nature of

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Speaker 1: these boors. Was he just like, Hey, we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: wage war against pigs for a few months here, And

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Speaker 1: they were like, okay, sure, that sounds like a reasonable

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Speaker 1: thing to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, why not?

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I wanted to kick things off today by turning

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Speaker 3: to the world of palaeontology, because it so happens. You

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Speaker 3: do not have to go into mythology and fiction to

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Speaker 3: meet some blood curdling monster pigs, or, perhaps, to be

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Speaker 3: more accurate, maybe not pigs, but blood curdling monster hoofed

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Speaker 3: mammals with some pig like features. Well hash out what's

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Speaker 3: really a pig and what's not as we go along.

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Speaker 3: But the point is, if you go back maybe twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty million years into the fossil record, you will encounter

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Speaker 3: a branch of the mammal family tree that has been

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Speaker 3: affectionately nicknamed the hell pigs, and perhaps less tastefully the

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Speaker 3: terminator pigs. That's got to be a subsequent nickname there.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, I don't know how clinical that is.

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Speaker 3: Now, hell pigs is just a cute name that has

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Speaker 3: been used in popular media. I found earlier sources from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties which refer to the same class of

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Speaker 3: animals by calling them giant pigs. In scientific nomenclature, these

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Speaker 3: creatures we're going to be talking about are called antilodonts

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Speaker 3: e ntel od intilodonts. They belong to the family Intilodontidy,

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Speaker 3: which is now completely extinct. The family name comes from

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Speaker 3: the Greek intellus, meaning complete or perfect, and odon, meaning tooth,

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Speaker 3: so the antilidont is the beast of the perfect tooth,

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Speaker 3: or the beast of the complete tooth. The antilodont family

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Speaker 3: is a member of the order Artiodactyla, which for much

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Speaker 3: of scientific history were known as the even toed ungulates ungulates,

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Speaker 3: meaning a hoofed animal even toad ungulates, referring to the

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Speaker 3: fact that most branches of this order bear their weight

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Speaker 3: primarily on two toes per foot. Now, despite the historical

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Speaker 3: classification based on this feature, more recent research has shown

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Speaker 3: that not all of the animals in this branch of

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Speaker 3: mammalia are actually ungulates or hoofed animals as traditionally understood,

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Speaker 3: so artiodactyls today consist of more well known ungulates like

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Speaker 3: de bison, cattle, sheep, and goats, but also camels, pigs, giraffes, hippopotamuses,

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Speaker 3: and maybe most surprisingly, whales and dolphins, because remember, whales

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Speaker 3: evolved from animals that used to live entirely on land

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Speaker 3: and millions of years ago made the gradual adaptive transition

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Speaker 3: to more and more water based lifestyle and physiology over time,

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Speaker 3: until eventually they were fully water dwelling creatures, having come

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Speaker 3: began as fish, moved onto the land, become mammals, and

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Speaker 3: then moved back into the water. Yeah, quite a journey

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Speaker 3: in tilodonts. The so called hell pigs first show up

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Speaker 3: in the fossil record sometime in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: Eocene epoch, which began roughly fifty five million years ago,

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Speaker 3: placing it about ten million years after the extinction of

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Speaker 3: the non avian dinosaurs, and continued until about thirty four

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Speaker 3: million years ago. I don't know if this has been

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Speaker 3: superseded by any more recent fossil finds, but at least

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Speaker 3: for a while, it was thought that antilodants first appeared

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Speaker 3: in the area that is now Mongolia and then spread

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Speaker 3: across the globe. First spread across much of Asia and

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Speaker 3: then to North America and Europe as well. And numerous

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Speaker 3: species of antilidants thrived during the Oligocene epic, and then

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Speaker 3: they appeared to have died out in the Early Miocene

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Speaker 3: between nineteen and sixteen million years ago. So one thing

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Speaker 3: that's worth emphasizing is that we're not talking about one

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Speaker 3: specific species of animal. We're talking about this family. So

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Speaker 3: there were many different species of antilodonts. The largest were

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Speaker 3: probably according to now I've come across different estimates here,

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Speaker 3: but according to the estimate given by Encyclopedia Britannica, they

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Speaker 3: could maybe get nine hundred kilograms. Britannica compares this to

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Speaker 3: a Clydesdale horse, so you can picture giant fanged pigs

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Speaker 3: pulling the Budweiser wagon. The largest known genus of antilidont

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Speaker 3: is confusingly known by seven different names, primarily Dinohias d

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Speaker 3: n O. H y Us, which means terrible pig or

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Speaker 3: monstrous pig from the same formation that you get dinosaur,

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Speaker 3: you know, terrible reptile, but then also is known as

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Speaker 3: Deodon daeodn, which means hostile tooth. It took me a

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Speaker 3: while to figure out what was going on here, but

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Speaker 3: it seems that the type species in question here is

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Speaker 3: known as either Dinohias Hollandi or Diodon shoshoneensis, And these

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Speaker 3: are designations based on different fossil finds, but I think

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Speaker 3: most experts agree that they refer to the same animal.

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Speaker 3: So Dinohias Hollandy is a full skeleton found at Agate

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Speaker 3: Springs Fossil Quarry in Nebraska, whereas Diodon was a genus

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Speaker 3: that was established earlier on the basis of less complete

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Speaker 3: fossil remains. So it gets kind of confusing because you

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Speaker 3: will find references to both names used SEP Britly in

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Speaker 3: different sources. But as best I can tell, these are

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Speaker 3: probably the same genus or the same species, whatever you

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Speaker 3: call them, Diodon or Dinohias. These animals were magnificent, with huge, devastating,

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Speaker 3: awe inspiring skulls and rob I have attached some images

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Speaker 3: for you to look at in the outline here. Folks

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Speaker 3: at home, if you want to try to google a

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Speaker 3: Dinohias or Diodon skull. You can do that yourself, but

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Speaker 3: I'll for the people who can't look it up, I

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Speaker 3: will describe it as best I can. For the full skeleton,

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Speaker 3: imagine a body that looks kind of like a buffalo

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Speaker 3: or a rhinoceros, with raised neural spines over the backbone

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Speaker 3: at the shoulder, kind of like a suspension bridge, implying

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Speaker 3: this massive shoulder hump at the base of the neck

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Speaker 3: to hold up an enormous head. And it did have

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Speaker 3: an enormous head, the huge, deep, powerful jaws under a

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Speaker 3: long snout with canines that somehow look like both sharpened

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Speaker 3: fangs and crushingly thick blunt bats at the same time.

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Speaker 3: The skull could be huge, could be up to ninety

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Speaker 3: centimeters long, or about thirty five or maybe even forty

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Speaker 3: five percent of the total body length. So this is

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Speaker 3: a big, powerful animal with a big, powerful skull a

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Speaker 3: crushing bite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you almost get the sense of it

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Speaker 1: being like the combination of a bear and a horse.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of like the fierceness of a

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Speaker 1: bear skull, but far like thicker and longer.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna have to keep all of the different cross

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Speaker 3: between analogies going. There will be a number of them

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Speaker 3: as we go through. But one thing I wanted to

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Speaker 3: point out for you, Rob is if you look around

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Speaker 3: on the skull of this animal, you will see not

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Speaker 3: just teeth, but these strange little solid knobs of bone

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Speaker 3: poking out at several places from the bone of the skull.

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Speaker 3: They're not teeth, they're like say along the bottom of

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Speaker 3: the jaw, under the lower jawbone, or behind the eye.

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Speaker 3: On the upper part of the skull. They will have

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Speaker 3: these protrusions. They just like parts of the bone that

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Speaker 3: stick out, almost as if they're like, you know, something's

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Speaker 3: going to be hanging from them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking.

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Speaker 3: It's almost like the animal's head is like a rock

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Speaker 3: climbing wall. It's got little, you know, handholds and stuff

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Speaker 3: on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of nooks and crannies.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so these protruding bone formations may have had a

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Speaker 3: couple of different purposes, perhaps defensive in nature, but also

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Speaker 3: possibly related to increasing the power of muscles that worked

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Speaker 3: the jaw in the head. Again, this creature had a

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Speaker 3: powerful bite. It could chew you up and maybe bite

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Speaker 3: you in half. So the dadon would have stood probably

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Speaker 3: a little under two meters tall at the shoulder. I

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Speaker 3: already gave one weight estimate earlier, the nine hundred kilograms.

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Speaker 3: It's not known for sure how much mass would have

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Speaker 3: attached to the skeleton. But even if you go down

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Speaker 3: from the nine hundred kilograms estimate that they cite in Britannica,

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Speaker 3: other sources guests around seven hundred and fifty kilograms, and

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Speaker 3: for comparison, that is bigger than most estimates you get

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Speaker 3: for adult male brown bears. So whether you're in the

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Speaker 3: Clydesdale territory or just like surpassing the large brown bear class,

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Speaker 3: it should put respect for nature's power into your brain

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Speaker 3: and in dear blood. Here and at the same time

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Speaker 3: that you're looking at this skull, if you go back

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Speaker 3: and look at the legs, they don't look like something

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Speaker 3: that really fits with the skull. This is a hoofed mammal,

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Speaker 3: and the legs actually appear fairly slender. And so the

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Speaker 3: pairing of this amazing, frightening skull and mouth with the

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Speaker 3: fact that its feet are hoofd and that its legs

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Speaker 3: almost look kind of like deer legs or something something

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Speaker 3: we associate with prey animals, animals that humans hunt and

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Speaker 3: eat or domesticate and use for milk and work. The

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Speaker 3: feet and the legs do not look like those of

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Speaker 3: wild beasts that could probably chomp us in half. So

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Speaker 3: should we think of in telodonts as predators. We can

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Speaker 3: come back to that question now to pivot a bit

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Speaker 3: and go on a short tangent away from the overtly

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Speaker 3: crushingly horrifying. I want to shift to the uncanny, the creepy,

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Speaker 3: the unwholesome and unnatural. So Rob, I've got a link

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Speaker 3: for you to look at here. I've also got an

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Speaker 3: image in the outline for you. Again, I will try

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Speaker 3: to describe for you folks at home so you can

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Speaker 3: picture it as well. But the thing we're about to

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Speaker 3: look at here is actually a sculpture. It is a

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Speaker 3: sculpture of the animal we have just been talking about,

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Speaker 3: and it is held in the collection of the Carnegie

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Speaker 3: Museum of Natural History. You can find a picture of

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Speaker 3: it easily if you search for Carnegie din Ohias. I

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Speaker 3: want to give a shout out that I found out

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Speaker 3: about this sculpture by reading a Carnegie Museum blog post

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Speaker 3: from January twenty nineteen by a collection an assistant for

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Speaker 3: the section of Vertebrate Paleontology named Joe Sauchak. So this

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Speaker 3: sculpture was created in nineteen oh nine by an American

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Speaker 3: artist named Theodore Augustus Mills, who lived from eighteen thirty

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Speaker 3: nine to nineteen sixteen. Mills worked for a number of institutions,

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Speaker 3: including the Smithsonian and the Carnegie Museum, and was the

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Speaker 3: son of sculptor Clark Mills, who famously made a cast

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Speaker 3: of the face of President Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty five,

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Speaker 3: which a younger Theodore assisted with. But this Dinohias sculpture

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Speaker 3: is perhaps an art movement unto itself. Sawchak writes that

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Speaker 3: as powerful and amazing as the Deodon or Dinohias bones are,

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Speaker 3: quote to several members of the Vertebrate Paleontology staff, including myself,

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Speaker 3: the model lovingly known as the Highest is perhaps even

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Speaker 3: more horrifying than the actual creature itself. So, Rob, I've

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Speaker 3: got the photo in here for you to look at,

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Speaker 3: alongside a hedge out of Peter Lorrie, just for reference.

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Speaker 3: And so the author of this blog post tries to

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Speaker 3: identify exactly what the museum staff finds so creepy and

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Speaker 3: fascinating about the sculpture. He mentioned something about the eyes

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Speaker 3: that seems especially human and emotive. But I do have

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Speaker 3: to agree there is something really special about this piece

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Speaker 3: of three dimensional paleo art that it is at once

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Speaker 3: alien and disturbingly human. I think parts of it are

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Speaker 3: hitting Uncanny Valley territory because we're getting sort of like

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Speaker 3: a pig, giant pig horse with human eyes energy. But

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Speaker 3: also it looks like it's about to tell me something,

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Speaker 3: like it's about to tell me a secret, and it's

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Speaker 3: a secret I don't want to know, and it's grinning

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Speaker 3: because it knows that I don't want to know.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's definitely looking at me. It's

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Speaker 1: definitely looking at many I feel like to some degree

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Speaker 1: judging me, but judging me fairly. Judge like it is

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Speaker 1: making a fair assessment of me. And yes, to your point,

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Speaker 1: perhaps I don't really want to hear it, but maybe

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Speaker 1: I do want to hear it. Maybe what this creature

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Speaker 1: has to share with me will bring a lot of

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Speaker 1: positive change into my life.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, well, I like the open mindedness with which

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Speaker 3: you're approaching this creature. Yeah, maybe, maybe the thing, the

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Speaker 3: secret that is going to share is actually great wisdom.

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Speaker 3: It's wisdom you need and you just aren't ready to accept.

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Speaker 1: But I do not get the sense that it wants

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Speaker 1: to eat me. I get the sense that it is

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Speaker 1: a bit more benign when it comes to matters of

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Speaker 1: the flesh.

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Speaker 3: It's really funny to me how much this paleo art image,

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Speaker 3: with the you know, the the fully constructed image, with

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Speaker 3: its kind of serene, placid eyes gazing into your mind

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Speaker 3: and maybe hypnotizing you maybe you're about to do some

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Speaker 3: scanners stuff on you, how much that does not comport

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Speaker 3: with the the just the fierceness suggested by the bones.

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Speaker 1: This is often the case, though, isn't it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one of the prime exit, I mean, the main prime

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Speaker 1: example here would of course, be the human skull. You

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Speaker 1: get a totally different vibe looking at a human skull

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Speaker 1: looking at a human face. But you know, that's almost

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Speaker 1: to be expected because you also have to confront a

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Speaker 1: lot about your own mortality when you look at a

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Speaker 1: skull of a human. I think it's more pronounced when

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Speaker 1: you see I think that the other readily available example

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Speaker 1: is the skull of the horse, Like the horse is

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Speaker 1: a domesticated animal that many judge to be you know,

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Speaker 1: basically in the same realm as that of the dog

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Speaker 1: in terms of human animal relationships. You know, it is

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Speaker 1: an animal that is very close to us, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: there's a strong case to be made that it's more

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Speaker 1: essential to the development of human civilization than anything any

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Speaker 1: other animal that we've domesticated. But while we look at

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Speaker 1: a horse, you know, we tend to see something again,

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Speaker 1: more benign, a friend of humanity, something noble and proud,

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Speaker 1: beautiful even. But you look at the skull of the

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Speaker 1: horse and you get this sense of kind of a

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Speaker 1: grinning demon. And people have, you know, had I think,

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Speaker 1: similar connections with the with the skull of the horse

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Speaker 1: for ages, you know, often incorporating it into designs of

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Speaker 1: supernatural beings or utilizing the horse skull in some way

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Speaker 1: that is you know, magical, perhaps protective magic and so forth.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, I guess maybe it is easy

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Speaker 1: to lose sight of that when you're dealing with the

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Speaker 1: skeletal remains of a prehistoric organism in which we don't

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Speaker 1: know what the fleshed version of the face looked like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And this is a great reminder of something

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Speaker 3: we've talked about on the show before about how you

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Speaker 3: know paleo art is necessarily, to some extent an interpretive enterprise.

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Speaker 3: In some cases you have more than just the bones,

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Speaker 3: but in a lot of cases you just have fossils,

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Speaker 3: maybe not even a complete skeleton. But you know, even

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Speaker 3: if you do have a complete a near complete fossil skeleton,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily tell you what the soft tissue looked

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Speaker 3: like on the outside. So you know, you can have

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Speaker 3: ways of informing the guesses made, like paleo art can

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Speaker 3: be informed by scientific knowledge, but you're still having to

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Speaker 3: make some guesses.

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Speaker 4: You're having to make some leaps.

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Speaker 1: Didn't we discuss my memories a little foggy on this,

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Speaker 1: But didn't we discuss some examples of like intentionally bad

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Speaker 1: paleo art reconstructing existing organisms like living organisms.

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Speaker 3: I think I recall what you're talking about, and I

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Speaker 3: think we were talking about the quote shrink wrapping phenomenon,

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Speaker 3: where it's like a lot of extinct animals or just

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Speaker 3: you take the bones and then you imagine skin tightly

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Speaker 3: wrapped around those bones and cutting out a lot of

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Speaker 3: the kind of bulk or soft tissue that you actually

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Speaker 3: see on some animals, and so yeah, I think the

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Speaker 3: idea was taking the skeletons of animals we know today

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Speaker 3: and cutting out all of the excess soft tissue and

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Speaker 3: just shrink wrapping them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think that that is what I was thinking of.

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Speaker 1: But it's easy to take that idea of the shrink wrapping.

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Speaker 1: Look at say a horse skeleton, and then imagine like

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Speaker 1: the shrink wrapped paleo art version of an extant horse.

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Speaker 1: You know, it would be this nightmare steed, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I mean you could apply something similar to humans.

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Speaker 1: We would all look like some sort of a ghoul.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Well, anyway, I do want to admit that,

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Speaker 3: you know, I don't have enough expertise in the anatomy

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Speaker 3: or physiology of these extinct mammals to judge whether the

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Speaker 3: Carnegie the Carnegie Museum statue is I don't know, is

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Speaker 3: anywhere close to right or not. But there is one

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Speaker 3: thing that I thought was interesting about it, which is

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Speaker 3: that the overly human eyes do kind of connect to

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Speaker 3: an interesting scientific fact about the antelodonts, which is that

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Speaker 3: they had more forward facing eye placement than a lot

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Speaker 3: of ardiodactyls, which raises questions about their survival strategies.

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Speaker 4: On a lot of hoofed.

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Speaker 3: Mammals, you will see the eyes the eyes spread more

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Speaker 3: to the sides, which does that can be helpful, especially

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Speaker 3: to prey animals, because it gives them a wider field

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Speaker 3: of vision, so it's easier for them to see predators approaching.

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Speaker 3: But the more forward shifted gaze of the antelodonts suggests

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Speaker 3: some other pressures in play. Oh and just quickly for

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Speaker 3: contrast on paleo art for these hell pigs, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to attach a couple more images for you to look at.

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Speaker 3: They both look pretty interesting. One is one I've just

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Speaker 3: seen floating around the internet, sited a few different times.

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Speaker 3: One is I think seemingly associated with the Encyclopedia Britannica resources.

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Speaker 3: And that one is funny to me because it looks

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Speaker 3: like a crocodile horse pig with face spikes doing the

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Speaker 3: meme troll face.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's very toothy. It looks like, how is

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Speaker 1: this mouth supposed to shut? It kind of implies an

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Speaker 1: organism that cannot close its mouth all the way. It

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Speaker 1: just has monster jaws.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's another funny thing where so it looks hilarious

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Speaker 3: in the picture this way, because it looks like this

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Speaker 3: animal is laughing at me, laughing at my misfortune and grief.

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Speaker 3: But there is an interesting thing about these the antilidants,

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Speaker 3: which is that they could apparently open their jaws extremely wide.

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Speaker 1: Well that makes me feel worse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I wanted to come back to the question

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Speaker 3: are these animals really pigs? They have been called hell

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Speaker 3: pigs in popular media and books and articles, but apparently

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Speaker 3: this is probably.

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Speaker 4: Not exactly accurate.

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Speaker 3: Pigs, swine, and hogs are animals that belong to the

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Speaker 3: mammal family Suidy. And while the antilodonts do share some

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Speaker 3: morphological features in common with pigs, like it's not hard

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Speaker 3: to see with some of these remains why someone would

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Speaker 3: look at them and say, oh, this is some type

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Speaker 3: of giant pig, like there are pig like things about it.

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Speaker 3: But more recent research has shown that pigs are probably

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Speaker 3: not the their closest relatives in the ardiodactyl order, and

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Speaker 3: in fact what their closest relatives are is maybe even

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Speaker 3: more interesting. So there have been findings about this going

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Speaker 3: back for years now. This is not like a new discovery.

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Speaker 3: But for an example of a more recent paper supporting

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Speaker 3: the division between antilodonts and pigs, I came across This

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Speaker 3: paper by Yang Yu Hong, Yang Gao, Chang Li, and

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Speaker 3: Xijun Ni, published in the Journal of Systematic Paleontology in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, called a new antilidont ardiodactyl mammalia from

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Speaker 3: the Late Eocene of China and its phylogenetic implications. This

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Speaker 3: paper is a report on a new genus and species

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Speaker 3: of antelodontity. This one is known as Antilodontellis Julianji and

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Speaker 3: it's and basically, they say based on finding remnants of

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Speaker 3: the animal's lower jaw and then comparing this animal to

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Speaker 3: comparing this newly discovered antilodont to other ardiodactyls, the authors

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Speaker 3: conclude that the antilodonts are situated within the clade setancodonto Morpha,

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Speaker 3: which means that they are quote more closely related to

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Speaker 3: hippopotamus and cetaceans than to suena. So the hell pigs

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Speaker 3: are not pigs as we understand them today, and are

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Speaker 3: probably more distant cousins of pigs and closer cousins of

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Speaker 3: hippos and whales. So you have this all inspiring body

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Speaker 3: form in many ways resembling a giant pig, but if

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Speaker 3: you kind of crossed it with a horse and a

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Speaker 3: bison and one of the monsters from Doom, and in

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Speaker 3: fact it is more closely related to hippos and whales.

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Speaker 1: All right, the Doom creature in that like that pink guy,

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Speaker 1: the big pink one with oh it's.

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Speaker 3: Gotta be yeah, yeah, yeah, they had the visible forms

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I believe that's the one, all right, all right,

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Speaker 1: So what we're we have here is maybe less of

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Speaker 1: a hell pig and more of a hell land whale

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Speaker 1: or hell hippo, or at least a cousin of those. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Another scientific paper I was reading, one by Florent rivals

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Speaker 3: at all, described these animals morphologically as a cross between

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Speaker 3: a hippopotamus, a giant pig, and a carnivore. But the

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Speaker 3: hippopotamus connection is interesting because of that anatomical fact that

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Speaker 3: these animals tend to have jaws so made that they

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Speaker 3: can they can open them unusually wide, like more than

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Speaker 3: a I think the figure was more than one hundred degrees.

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Speaker 3: They can open them so like hugely wide opening of

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Speaker 3: the jaws, and hippopotamuses can do that as well. Hippopotamuses

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Speaker 3: famously have an extremely lethal and powerful closing bite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah have a very dangerous animal in the wild.

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Speaker 3: So this brings us to the question of what what

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Speaker 3: did these antilodonts eat? What and how did they eat?

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Speaker 3: Antilodonts are apparently different from a lot of other ungulates

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Speaker 3: in that their skull and jaw structure is in some

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Speaker 3: ways more like that of modern carnivores. Now, not in

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Speaker 3: all ways, but in some And it is worth noting

432
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: that there are no carnivorous hoofed mammals today, but there

433
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: were hoofed predators in the past. Could come back to this,

434
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: but anyway, if you compare the jaws of herbivorous hoofed

435
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 3: mammals with the jaws of carnivores, you will see some patterns.

436
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 3: I mean, different animals will have some idiosyncratic characteristics, but

437
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: broad patterns emerge in the teeth and the jaw shape.

438
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: Carnivores often need to have big skulls with powerful jaw

439
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 3: muscles to deliver a strong bite force because they use

440
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 3: their jaws not just for chewing, but specifically for biting,

441
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: to injure and kill prey with the bite, and sometimes

442
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 3: to fight with each other. Herbivores not so much. Herbivores

443
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: more often have rows of flat teeth and jaws that

444
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: are specialized to move side to side for grinding down

445
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: plant matter between the molars. Carnivores tend to have sharp

446
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: incisors in the front of the mouth and jaws that

447
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: primarily move up and down, sort of less grinding oriented.

448
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: Carnivores more often have a jaw that hinges roughly in

449
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: line with the teeth, so it opens kind of like

450
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: a claw. Herbivores more often have an L shaped lower

451
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 3: jaw that hinges up above the teeth.

452
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 4: So which of.

453
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 3: These patterns do the antelodonts conform to? You know, if

454
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: I had looked at one of these daodon skulls with

455
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: my untrained eye, I would have guessed this was a

456
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 3: fully carnivorous predator if you look at the power of

457
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: the jaw, the shape.

458
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 4: Of the front teeth.

459
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: Certainly, the canines and incisors, they look very sharp and threatening.

460
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: They certainly seem like me eating predators on those counts.

461
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: But the current consensus of paleontologists. Seems to be that

462
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 3: antilodonts had an omnivorous diet, meaning they ate the whole

463
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 3: buffet plants, animals, meat, vegetables, whatever energy dense matter they

464
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: could get into their mouths. So one piece of evidence

465
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 3: for this is the shape of their molars and premolars.

466
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: Antilodonts had what are called bunodont teeth. This was a

467
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: new term to me, I think, but this means teeth

468
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: with little hill shaped bumps on the surface specialized for

469
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: crushing a wide variety of foods. So animals with bunadont

470
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 3: teeth today include bears, pigs, and some primates such as humans,

471
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: all of which are omnivores. There's also evidence from a

472
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: number of other lines, things like the ware patterns on

473
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: fossil antilidont teeth. All these tend to line up with

474
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: an omnivorous diet, so it seems they were likely eating

475
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: from both the flora and fauna all around them. And

476
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: this is interesting because that is also the case with

477
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: modern pigs. Modern pigs you don't usually think of as predators,

478
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: but they will absolutely eat some meat if they can

479
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: get their hands on it. Wild pigs and feral bores

480
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: and stuff will eat small animals, but they also eat

481
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: a lot of vegetables, you know, And so they have

482
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 3: this kind of combination of traits in the jaws and

483
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: the teeth that show that they're specialized for both. Really,

484
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: and one thing is very clear from looking at their mouths.

485
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: The teeth and jaws of most of these animals were

486
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: capable of eating very hard foods, cracking and crushing their

487
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: way through anything including roots, nuts, and of course plant matter,

488
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: as well as meat and possibly even bone. I found

489
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: references to these animals possibly being bone crushers in several sources.

490
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: One out site is the Uicy Bowl Museum of Natural

491
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: History in describing research on a species of antilodont called Archaeotherium.

492
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: This is an extinct genus that once lived in the

493
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 3: floodplains of North America during the Late Acene and the Oligocene,

494
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: and the museum it compares the front teeth, the canines,

495
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: the fangs sort of of these animals to tusks and

496
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: says that you know, it may have been using these

497
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 3: front teeth to dig, essentially like to dig for tubers,

498
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 3: to dig for roots that.

499
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 4: It could eat.

500
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 3: But they also have evidence that this animal was into

501
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: crushing bones with its teeth, and they cite evidence of

502
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: an ancient species of camel called the Pobrotherium, which a

503
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: bunch of the remains of this camel were found in

504
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: a fossil formation known as the White River formation in Wyoming,

505
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: where it looks at least like they were killed or

506
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: eaten at least by these archaeotherium, and there are punctures

507
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: on the bones that apparently match the premolars of the

508
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: Antilidont species. Scars found on the bones of hell pigs

509
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 3: suggest that these animals fought each other as well, apparently

510
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: biting at each other's heads and faces, resulting in deep

511
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: bone scars. And that remember we mentioned earlier on the

512
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: skulls of these animals, the protrusions of bone jutting out

513
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: of the jaw and then back behind the eyes. They

514
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: of course maybe an anchor point for some of the

515
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: facial musculature to help the jaw operate the way it

516
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: needs to, but as possible, they also protected soft spots

517
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: of antilidont faces during these biting competitions to maybe protect

518
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: the nose or the eyes. And it does appear that

519
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 3: these animals probably had a strong sense of smell. Now

520
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: there's another interesting question, which is the debate about the

521
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: meat that.

522
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: They likely ate.

523
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: So because there's this evidence in the way their bodies

524
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: are made, and of course in the remains of others

525
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: their animals, that antilodonts were running around eating meat, there

526
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: is of course a debate about how they got.

527
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 4: The meat they ate.

528
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: To the extent that they ate meat in their omnivorous diet.

529
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: Were the antelodonts primarily active predators chasing down in killing prey,

530
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: or scavengers eating dead animals when they came across them.

531
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 3: And by the way, I think it's worth noting that

532
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: predation and scavenging are not mutually exclusive. Most animals that

533
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: engage in one will engage in the other given the

534
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: right opportunity. It's more a question of specialization which they

535
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: primarily do. And I've seen some paleo experts comment that

536
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: they think it quite possible that some antilodonts would have

537
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: been what you might call intimidation scavengers. So to the

538
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: extent that they were scavengers, it's possible that some species

539
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: would do this kind of activity where you arrive at

540
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: the site of a kill by another predator, and then

541
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: you threaten and intimidate the original predator into running away,

542
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 3: and then the antelodont can steal the kill. This is

543
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: a strategy that some predators and scavengers employ today. For example,

544
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: a lion might wait for a cheetah to chase down

545
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: and kill an impala, and then the larger lion comes

546
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: and scares the cheetah away and takes the prey. Now

547
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: you might think, well, well, if you're like a bigger,

548
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: more powerful predator, why wouldn't you just kill the prey

549
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: in the first place. But actually there are different specializations

550
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 3: in play. Like, some predators might be faster moving and

551
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: easier to you know, it's easier for them to chase

552
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: prey that's actively trying to run away, whereas you might

553
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: not be as fast as the original predator, but the

554
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: original predator like can't drag its kill away fast enough

555
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: to get away from you if you're bigger and more powerful.

556
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, the former is a game of stealth. The latter

557
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: is holding down turf, stealing territory and defending it. Adding

558
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: into the fact that the actual that made the initial

559
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: kill might be rather extinguished by the hunt so yeah,

560
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: it's a huge opportunity for something like that to move

561
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: in and take advantage of the situation. And of course

562
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: there are various other versions of this we've talked about

563
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: on the show before, some involving human beings getting in

564
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: there and getting at least a piece of the kill

565
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: and then making off with it. From the original predators.

566
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, what, I know that's come up in the

567
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: show before about humans as intimidation scavengers.

568
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some traditional human practices along those lines.

569
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so antilo dants maybe not literally pigs, more pigs

570
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: in name only, but good enough as monster pigs for me.

571
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it sounds like weighing everything we've discussed here,

572
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: It's like, it sounds like still a very intimidating organism,

573
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: one that you would want to probably keep a healthy

574
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: distance from, even if it was looking at you with

575
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: those kind of sweet Peter Laurie eyes, I guess even

576
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: more so if it's looking directly at you with with

577
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: front facing Peter Lourie eyes.

578
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: I don't know why I'm not.

579
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: I'm really not just like playing it up for the show,

580
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: Like I truly am a little disturbed and unnerved by

581
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: the idea of being chased or preyed upon or threatened

582
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: by a by a toothy mammal that has hooves instead

583
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: of paws and claws.

584
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you Why do you think that is

585
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: what makes it worse than, say, being hunted by a

586
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: great bear. I don't, which I find to be extremely terrifying.

587
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: Well, that is extremely terrifying.

588
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 3: It's I think it's just that the hooves idea is

589
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: it's unusual, like the idea that you would you could

590
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: like hear something that sounds like kind of hoof beats.

591
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it wouldn't be exactly like horse hoof beats,

592
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: because you know, they have different types of hooves, you know,

593
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: it's the it's the two toed ungulate. But it would

594
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: still be basically a hoofed animal would sound like a

595
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 3: pig walking around, except it could bite you in half.

596
00:34:58,960 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's freaky.

597
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: Reminds me a bit. I'm reminded here too of our

598
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: discussions of the horse in the past. Was it was

599
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: it stories of Julius Caesar's horse having human feet or

600
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: tell feet?

601
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: That's right.

602
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe we'll have to rerun soon our episodes on

603
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 3: the evolution of horse hooves.

604
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 4: I think this kind of ties in somehow.

605
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, that one had the less frightening but still quite

606
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: jarring idea that in an evolutionary sense, horses are galloping

607
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: around on their middle fingers.

608
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: Yes, they just have finger feet. Yeah, but still, you know,

609
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: the basic idea of the hell hog. Here, the fossil evidence,

610
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: I think does provide us with like a basic idea

611
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: of what some of these monster pigs might consist of.

612
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: You know, if they were a reality, Like if King

613
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: Arthur was actually battling a bunch of hell pigs that

614
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: used to be human kings they were too wicked to

615
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: remain in human form, Yeah, I could see it looking

616
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: so something like this. You know, if the various other

617
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: accounts of monster pigs that we discussed, you know, if

618
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: there was some sort of primordial monster hog roaming the countryside. Yeah, yeah,

619
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: I could see it looking something like this, having eyes

620
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: like this even and maybe the eyes of the highest

621
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: that are disturbing, because you can sort of imagine the

622
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: idea of, oh, this is like a human intellect staring

623
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: out at me through the body and the appetites of

624
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: a hellish pig.

625
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: This king he has remorse for his sins for the

626
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: sense he committed as king, and now he is doomed

627
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: spend eternity in the Big Bone Room of the Carnegie Museum.

628
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: You know, two more cinematic connections to pigs and bores

629
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: that I want to mention here because these might be

630
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: coming to my for some of our listeners. First of all,

631
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: Wizard of oz Uh, there is the scene where Dorothy

632
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 1: almost falls in or does fall into the pig pen,

633
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: and there is concern that Dorothy is about to be

634
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: eaten by pigs.

635
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 4: Or at least injured by them. But yeah, I thought it.

636
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: Would be like straight up eating down to the bone. Yeah,

637
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of horrifying sequence.

638
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 4: I agree. You know that was scary as heck. I

639
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: remember that.

640
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I'm also reminded that there's a whole

641
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: plot line one of the main I guess part of

642
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: the main plot in Hannibal is that Mason Berger wants

643
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: to feed Hannibal Lecter to some wild bores. I forget

644
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: the exact details, but he's like specially bred some big

645
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: monster bores to eat Hannibal Lecter.

646
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: I think they're not wild boars, aren't they They're like

647
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: they're like domestic pigs that were selected to enjoy the

648
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: taste of human flesh.

649
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: Was that it I knew there was some sort of

650
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: selective breeding, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't sure how Jurassic

651
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: Park it got. It's been a long time since I

652
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: read it, So it's like if you had told me

653
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, he used he used DNA from prehistoric

654
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: pigs and bores, I would be like, okay, sure, yeah.

655
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: I mean he's like super rich, and that is certainly

656
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: a novel of excess, So why not.

657
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: Like he oh, yes, he cloned din Ohias Hellandi or

658
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 3: deoda on whichever is. Yeah, he cloned it to make

659
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 3: a giant pig so that it could come eat Hannibal

660
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 3: Lector's feet.

661
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that like that's not any wilder than anything

662
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: it's actually in the book, So I'd say, why not

663
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: does not work out? Spoilers for Hannibal book and film adaptation,

664
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, they don't actually eat Hannibal. I think in

665
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: the movie they end up eating Mason, but I don't

666
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 1: think it goes down like that in the novel.

667
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 3: Oh, in the book there's something even weirder. I think

668
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: he gets thrown into some eels or.

669
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: Something something like that. I don't think we can really

670
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: even go into all the detail what happens in the book,

671
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: but but it's yeah, I think it's worse in some ways.

672
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: But now I'm wondering if there are other like monstrous pigs,

673
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: sort of horror pig scenarios that we should bring up

674
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: but we haven't. Perhaps those four listeners will have to

675
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: jump in other Halloween related cinematic pigs, hogs, bores, and

676
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: so forth.

677
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, send them our way contacted stuff to blow your

678
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: mind dot com.

679
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe Haveleena is even getting on the action that

680
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: I can Haveveleenas don't really seem to have the same

681
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: like horror vibe. I don't know. I was get a

682
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: sweeter vibe off of the Havelena though. I've seen some

683
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: pretty ferocious looking Hovelina heads mounted on the wall before.

684
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: My uncle and aunt had the head of one that

685
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,479
Speaker 1: they had killed on the wall of their guest room,

686
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: and they had they also had this like this reading

687
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: light that had like a red plastic cover, so it

688
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: ended up casting like a hellish red glow on the

689
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: like snarling head mounted head of a Hovelina, and it

690
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: created quite a scene. I think when when my son

691
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: traveled out there with us. We ended up having to

692
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: do something to sort of alter the tableau so it

693
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't be quite as terrifying to sleep at the same

694
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: room with it.

695
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 4: Put a towel over it.

696
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, put a towel over it, our hat on it.

697
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: I don't know what we did, Maybe change the light out.

698
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: I don't know how you didn't start our series talking

699
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 3: about that.

700
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: That's great, I know I'd kind of kind of forgotten

701
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: about that real quick before anybody goes to correct me

702
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: on this. Halloween is our peck reas. So they are

703
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: pig like, like ungulates, but they are not pigs per se.

704
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: So a lot of people will call them pigs or

705
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: call them bores, and yeah, it's they're pig like. We'll

706
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: leave it at that, all right. Well, on that note,

707
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: we're going to go ahead and close out this look

708
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: at the Hogs of Hell. But again, certainly right in

709
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: if you have more examples of Halloween hogs, be they fictional, prehistoric, science, fictional,

710
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: mythological folklore, whatever you've got writing in, we would love

711
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: to hear from you. We'll probably, you know, inevitably do

712
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 1: some sort of a like a Halloween Hangover listener mail

713
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: episode at some point in November to go through additional

714
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: stuff that has come in related to our Halloween episodes,

715
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: So do write in.

716
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

717
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

718
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

719
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

720
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

721
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

722
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

723
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

724
00:41:45,040 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.