Speaker 1: Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and a love of all things tech, and I am
Speaker 1: currently hard at work on an episode that's about cybersecurity,
Speaker 1: cyber warfare, AI, the AI arms race China. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, a lot of different parts. This is
Speaker 1: largely brought on because recently the Pentagon's chief software officer
Speaker 1: resigned and in the process left a very angry and
Speaker 1: detailed list of grievances that led to his decision to resign.
Speaker 1: So I'm working on an episode that really dives into
Speaker 1: all of that and explains what the landscape is, what
Speaker 1: the concerns are, kind of tries to examine how realistic
Speaker 1: certain threats are or whether there might be other mitigating factors.
Speaker 1: As it turns out, these things get very, very complicated,
Speaker 1: not just because of the technology, but because the way
Speaker 1: the rest of the world works. Like, we can't divorce
Speaker 1: technology from the way things happen in the world, right,
Speaker 1: I Mean, they obey the same sort of restrictions that
Speaker 1: the rest of us do. So anyway, long story short,
Speaker 1: too late. I'm still working on that piece. I want
Speaker 1: to make sure that it's as good as I can
Speaker 1: possibly make it before I publish it. So in the
Speaker 1: spirit of that piece, I thought we could listen to
Speaker 1: a classic episode of Tech Stuff. This one published way
Speaker 1: back on June two thousand nine, and it is titled
Speaker 1: are We in Cyber War? So this episode is more
Speaker 1: than a decade old. It's with me and original co
Speaker 1: host Chris Pullette, and we just have this discussion. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting to go back and listen to this because
Speaker 1: obviously things have progressed a lot since two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: The cyber threats have grown significantly since two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: They were already significant then, but they're even more so now.
Speaker 1: So I think it's a great starting point to kind
Speaker 1: of say, here's where we were more than a decade ago,
Speaker 1: and then that will lead into what will be Friday's episode,
Speaker 1: which will be the deeper dive on the current landscape,
Speaker 1: why people in positions of authority in different tech departments
Speaker 1: within the United States are concerned, and what's going on
Speaker 1: with China and whether or not that's going to have
Speaker 1: a long lasting impact. So let's go and listen to
Speaker 1: this classic episode and I'll be back at the end
Speaker 1: to kind of chat a little bit more before we
Speaker 1: wrap up Enjoy. Unfortunately, we have some serious things to
Speaker 1: talk about. Actually, we have some pretty scary stuff to
Speaker 1: talk about. This. This I think is even scarier than
Speaker 1: our zombie computers and Halloween shows combined. Really, yeah, I think. So. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna talk today about cyber war. It's not
Speaker 1: pirate war, cyber war. Cyber war, so we're all we're
Speaker 1: not talking about tron here um, nor are we talking
Speaker 1: about war games, both of which are awesome movies, so
Speaker 1: put them to the top of your Netflix queue. Um. No,
Speaker 1: we're talking about using computers to either spy upon, or
Speaker 1: sabotage or otherwise inflict some sort of harm upon a nation. Um.
Speaker 1: And this can be done by one of a dozen
Speaker 1: different entities. That's the That's one of the scary things
Speaker 1: about cyber war, is that? All Right? So in classic warfare,
Speaker 1: you know, usually you you would talk about two different nations,
Speaker 1: or perhaps two different factions within a nation, fighting one another.
Speaker 1: Pretty easy to identify who the parties involved are, right, normally, yeah,
Speaker 1: because guys shooting at you, right, and normally they have
Speaker 1: you know, uniforms of some kind on you know, not
Speaker 1: to shoot your own guy. Yeah, yeah, there's some there's
Speaker 1: some general little rules that make it easier to know
Speaker 1: which guys are the ones you're supposed to be shooting. Um.
Speaker 1: Cyber war is not quite that clean cut. The problem
Speaker 1: with cyber war is that the attacks can come from anywhere.
Speaker 1: They can come from another country. They can come from
Speaker 1: patriots within another country that are acting on their own.
Speaker 1: That could come from essentially a mercenary, a hacker that's
Speaker 1: hired to do this sort of thing. Um, that could
Speaker 1: come from someone who's just trying to cause mischief and
Speaker 1: they don't have any other motives. Uh. So it an
Speaker 1: attack that can come from another country, or that it
Speaker 1: can come from within the country that is being attacked.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know you're talking about uh sort of
Speaker 1: a cyber terrorism in a way. Yeah. And as a
Speaker 1: matter of fact, him, it could be somebody sitting in
Speaker 1: his jammie, is in his living room in the computer.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't need to be somebody out you know,
Speaker 1: skulking around the streets or you know, somewhere in a foxhole. Heck,
Speaker 1: it could be someone parked in your driveway, hacking into
Speaker 1: your WiFi. Good point, and it's that's why we're talking
Speaker 1: about how scary this is. It's um and and on
Speaker 1: another level, it's also scary because it takes so little,
Speaker 1: relatively speaking to UH to perform an effective cyber attack. Now,
Speaker 1: when you're talking about a traditional attack on from one
Speaker 1: nation on to another, you're talking about billions of dollars
Speaker 1: worth of equipment, of of personnel. UH. You know, the
Speaker 1: things that have to go behind a war machine. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're that's a huge investment. When you're talking about cyber attacks,
Speaker 1: you're talking about a computer and a computer connection, and
Speaker 1: you know, you might have a couple of other little
Speaker 1: bells and whistles to help you along, but you really
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily need it if you know what you're
Speaker 1: doing and you have the right software. So it's one
Speaker 1: of those things wherefore a very low small entrance fee.
Speaker 1: I guess you could say you could have a huge,
Speaker 1: huge impact. As a matter of fact, your computer could
Speaker 1: be used to carry out a cyber attack. Yes, if
Speaker 1: you've if you've installed some kind of malware like a
Speaker 1: virus or a worm that UH can turn your machine
Speaker 1: into a zombie someone else can direct your computer to
Speaker 1: UH to send email and a denial of service attack
Speaker 1: which basically floods UM floods computers with spam and other
Speaker 1: and other requests if you will, for information. The thing
Speaker 1: is that doesn't require any cost on the part of
Speaker 1: on the part of the attack or at all, because
Speaker 1: all the machines are essentially donated, you know, from somebody else,
Speaker 1: right and the and to make matters worse, UH, when
Speaker 1: when anyone in authority tries to trace the source of
Speaker 1: the attack, they might come to your computer and never
Speaker 1: find the person who actually infected your computer in the
Speaker 1: first place. So then you become the person of interest,
Speaker 1: the person who's under suspicion for committing an attack, and
Speaker 1: the whole time you were completely unaware. Um. Actually, that's
Speaker 1: another big, big issue with the cyber warfare problem. Even
Speaker 1: when you can detect an attack and trace it back,
Speaker 1: you can never be a sure that the last place
Speaker 1: you you trace it back to is in fact the
Speaker 1: original spot of the attack, because there are these you know,
Speaker 1: there's there are things like proxy sites, there are the
Speaker 1: zombie computers where there's always the possibility that there's one
Speaker 1: more link you haven't found yet that will take you
Speaker 1: back even further. So that's uh, you know, if you
Speaker 1: if you uh, if you were to detect, say an attack,
Speaker 1: and you say, well, we've traced it back to China,
Speaker 1: you can never be sure that that the Chinese government
Speaker 1: was behind it. It could have been patriots in China
Speaker 1: who had the same sort of goals as the government
Speaker 1: of China, but we're acting on their own. Or it
Speaker 1: could have even been a people in a totally different
Speaker 1: country that just managed to use proxy sites in China
Speaker 1: to fool you into thinking that's where the attack came from.
Speaker 1: So it's really insidious. Um And you might wonder, well,
Speaker 1: how how vulnerable are we to these sort of attacks?
Speaker 1: And I guess it really depends on which system you're
Speaker 1: talking about, because you know, the Internet is a network
Speaker 1: of networks, right right, so any given network or any
Speaker 1: given computer could be the weak spot, you know, and
Speaker 1: and there are just tons of computers as part of
Speaker 1: the Internet. You know, every time you were computer is
Speaker 1: hooked up for Internet access, you become part of this
Speaker 1: giant cloud. Um. So, and then the really sophisticated crackers,
Speaker 1: those are the really nasty hackers. Those are the ones
Speaker 1: who can find ways to manipulate a network in ways
Speaker 1: that you know, most people don't think of, right and
Speaker 1: and to give you an idea of how vulnerable certain
Speaker 1: systems can be. Back in seven, there was a secret
Speaker 1: experiment the Department of Defense commissioned and it was called
Speaker 1: Eligible Receiver. I remember that. Yeah, this isn't This was
Speaker 1: kind of an eye opener um. Now a lot of
Speaker 1: Eligible Receiver, A lot of that mission remains classified, so
Speaker 1: we don't know all the details. But what we do
Speaker 1: know is that part of the the experiment involved getting
Speaker 1: a group of hackers together, giving them some very basic
Speaker 1: computing hardware and software, and telling them to try and
Speaker 1: break their way into the Pentagon's computer system. And it
Speaker 1: took them three days using basic computers and basic software. Uh,
Speaker 1: three day is just for regular hackers. These aren't necessarily
Speaker 1: the people who are who have a you know, an
Speaker 1: actual motive to break into the Pentagon and the fact
Speaker 1: that they're part of an experiment, right, It's not like
Speaker 1: they have a government breathing down their next saying we
Speaker 1: need access to this information. Uh So that's that's pretty
Speaker 1: sobering to think that within three days one of the
Speaker 1: nation's most important computing systems was compromised, even though it
Speaker 1: was an inside job and an experiment, right, well, they
Speaker 1: there have been attempts to shore that up since then,
Speaker 1: and in fact they conduct regular exercises in order to
Speaker 1: do that. In fact, there was one not that long ago.
Speaker 1: Every year they there are students from Army, Navy, Air Force,
Speaker 1: and the Coast Guarden Merchant Marine, as well as the
Speaker 1: Naval Postgraduate Academy and the Air Force Institute of Technology.
Speaker 1: And basically it's it's uh, undergrads were given the opportunity
Speaker 1: to defend themselves from an attack by the n s
Speaker 1: a UM and UH every year they undergo this experiment,
Speaker 1: and uh, the West Point held out the longest and
Speaker 1: they the Army got to defend their title. But they
Speaker 1: were using Lenox computers. But this is apparently a normal thing. Um.
Speaker 1: The Defense Department is only graduating eighties students a year
Speaker 1: from schools of cyber war in the United States, according
Speaker 1: to the New York Times article that I read about it. UM.
Speaker 1: And if you're wondering, this is the fifty seven Information
Speaker 1: Aggressor Squadron. They're based in Nellis Air Force Base, and
Speaker 1: they are they they are. They are. They make a
Speaker 1: point of doing this test every year, and um, you
Speaker 1: know they it's one of those things where they are
Speaker 1: making a conscious effort to attack and defend UH computer networks.
Speaker 1: And apparently the uh you know, the nerds are nerds everywhere,
Speaker 1: even at West Point Um according to the way, according
Speaker 1: to the way the article was written. They get a
Speaker 1: little ribbing for being the geeks of the group. But
Speaker 1: even the you know, the the future officers that graduate
Speaker 1: from their know the importance of the computer network because
Speaker 1: that's one of the very first things they do. They're
Speaker 1: about to deploy these guys to Afghanistan as a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, and the first thing they're gonna do is
Speaker 1: set up a secure internet connection, and they have to
Speaker 1: be ready to defend themselves against denial of the denial
Speaker 1: of service attacks and uh another attacks. So I mean,
Speaker 1: they're they're coming right out of the service academies with
Speaker 1: knowledge of how to attack and to protect UM computer networks,
Speaker 1: military computer networks. There's a bit more to go with
Speaker 1: our conversation about the state of cyber war in this
Speaker 1: classic episode, but before we get to that, let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break. You usually we call those sort of
Speaker 1: exercises red team attacks UM where a group is is
Speaker 1: designated to play the part of an UM adversary and
Speaker 1: that's the Red team. And the Red team's job is
Speaker 1: to is to achieve their goals by whatever means necessary.
Speaker 1: So in other words, you know, you're not supposed to
Speaker 1: necessarily follow a certain protocol or rules. You're supposed to
Speaker 1: be inventive and creative and try and find new ways
Speaker 1: to to really compromise or defeat the other team and UM,
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what the enemy is going to do.
Speaker 1: You know, the enemy is not going to play by
Speaker 1: rules necessarily, especially if you're talking about enemies that you
Speaker 1: can't predict. I mean, they may not even be directly
Speaker 1: involved with any other government or or official agency. So
Speaker 1: UM and and you know, we government websites and our
Speaker 1: government web servers and and systems aren't the only targets.
Speaker 1: One of the big targets in the United States, and
Speaker 1: it's been in the news quite a bit over the
Speaker 1: spring of two thousand nine is the electric grid and UH.
Speaker 1: Part of the problem with that is that systems like
Speaker 1: the electric grid and and some water and fuel systems
Speaker 1: are using UM, using the software that that directly ties
Speaker 1: into hardware, and if you just change a few settings,
Speaker 1: you can cause catastrophic damage to the the equipment. UM.
Speaker 1: There was a video that was on CNN for a
Speaker 1: while where some uh, some electric utility experts showed that
Speaker 1: with just a couple of tweaks, you could completely destroy
Speaker 1: a generator by changing some settings through the computer system,
Speaker 1: and they essentially turned a generator into a pile of
Speaker 1: scrap metal. UM. Yeah, it was very sobering to me
Speaker 1: to see that, because not that long ago the news
Speaker 1: broke out that the United States electric grid, certain parts
Speaker 1: of it anyway, uh, has been under attack by some
Speaker 1: cyber spies over the last several years. And I don't
Speaker 1: really know who it is, right right right. They've traced
Speaker 1: them back mostly to China and Russia. But again um,
Speaker 1: both China and Russia deny that they had anything to
Speaker 1: do with it. But I mean, of course, wouldn't you.
Speaker 1: The thing is it, you know, those countries are are
Speaker 1: gradually becoming more and more uh, computer centric, and it
Speaker 1: you know, it could be anybody. It could be you know,
Speaker 1: it could it could be that they are directly involved, UM,
Speaker 1: or it could be that it's groups of of individuals
Speaker 1: within those countries, or like we said, it could even
Speaker 1: be that the attacks are ultimately originating somewhere else, but
Speaker 1: we're only able to trace them back as far as
Speaker 1: Russia and China. So that's that's the other issue with
Speaker 1: the Internet is that it is a global entity, and
Speaker 1: so law enforcement officials only have so much authority to
Speaker 1: pursue cyber attacks. You know, they can cross over borders
Speaker 1: easily on the Internet, but law enforcement can't. They don't
Speaker 1: necessarily have the authority to pursue an investigation beyond the
Speaker 1: borders of you know, whatever their jurisdiction is. So that
Speaker 1: also makes life much more complicated when you're talking about
Speaker 1: fending off cyber warfare attacks. Yeah, you know, uh, it
Speaker 1: wasn't even that long ago that some countries were complaining
Speaker 1: of real cyber attacks launched on their inner infrastructure, like
Speaker 1: Estonia not too long ago, and uh they were blaming
Speaker 1: the Russians for that attack. But that was back in
Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, all those years ago. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: those both years ago. Yeah. Well, you know they say
Speaker 1: that Internet time is sort of like dog years. It's
Speaker 1: about that would make it about fourteen years ago in Internet,
Speaker 1: So I guess so, um. Yeah. And then of course
Speaker 1: there's the example of the Dalai Lama's office that the
Speaker 1: Tibetan office that was uh. They knew they were being watched, right,
Speaker 1: they were absolutely certain that their systems had been compromised UM,
Speaker 1: and they hired a Canadian firm to investigate. In the
Speaker 1: Canadian firm found that indeed, there there were programs installed
Speaker 1: upon the Dali lamas Uh computer systems, and that it
Speaker 1: appeared to be coming from an offshore island off the
Speaker 1: coast of a China. And the software even included UM
Speaker 1: controls that would allow people on the other end to
Speaker 1: activate audio and video software UM and hardware so that
Speaker 1: they could turn on if the computer had a webcam
Speaker 1: or a microphone, they could turn it on and turn
Speaker 1: it into a remote listening station, so they could actually
Speaker 1: spy on the goings on of these offices remotely. UM. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very real problem worldwide. It's
Speaker 1: not just something that we have to worry about in
Speaker 1: the United States or or you know, any other specific nation.
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty much if if you have computers, there's
Speaker 1: a good chance there's another party somewhere that's really interested
Speaker 1: in finding out what you know and what you don't
Speaker 1: know and what you're up to. Yep, and um, there's
Speaker 1: there's even another component to it that I know we
Speaker 1: were gonna stick, uh mainly to talking about how you
Speaker 1: could use computers to launch computer attacks, but um, another
Speaker 1: facet of this that I think is interesting was sort
Speaker 1: of relates to a blog post I wrote in early
Speaker 1: April um on the tech stuff blog that talked about
Speaker 1: the Moldovan pro democracy protesters and they weren't launching computer attacks,
Speaker 1: but what they were doing was using uh social networking
Speaker 1: sites like Twitter and Facebook to coordinate their efforts sort
Speaker 1: of like flash mobs. They could go ahead and use
Speaker 1: computer networks like those and uh text messaging to discuss
Speaker 1: where and when they were going to organize and meet
Speaker 1: and hold a demonstration. So that's um, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: you know, relying on the network staying up and rather
Speaker 1: than taking them down. But UM, I just it's just
Speaker 1: kind of funny because you know, you don't think of
Speaker 1: you think of Facebook and Twitter or something we use
Speaker 1: for fun or to to keep up with people, and
Speaker 1: just another way that you can use them to actually,
Speaker 1: I mean, those could those could just as well have
Speaker 1: been used to hold a violent, you know, attack on someone. Say,
Speaker 1: you know, meet at this corner at one forty in
Speaker 1: the afternoon, Uh, you know, and have everybody show up
Speaker 1: and start fighting. Well, if the law enforcement is unaware
Speaker 1: of it or the military forces are unaware of it,
Speaker 1: you know, that could be a devastating attack, and it
Speaker 1: could be used by virtually anybody. Chris and I have
Speaker 1: a bit more to say about cyber war in general,
Speaker 1: and we'll get to that after this quick break. The
Speaker 1: dangers of these attacks go beyond just damaging a network
Speaker 1: or shutting down a system. UM. One of the big
Speaker 1: fears that a lot of security folks have is that
Speaker 1: what if you were to coordinate a physical attack with
Speaker 1: a cyber attack. So what if you were to target
Speaker 1: a major city and first you bring down the city's
Speaker 1: power grid through a cyber attack, and then you couple
Speaker 1: that with an actual physical attack like bombs or or whatever,
Speaker 1: and that UM together, that would cause a real panic
Speaker 1: because suddenly you have an entire population that that doesn't
Speaker 1: have access to UM information the way they normally would,
Speaker 1: and yet there is obviously chaos going on. And uh
Speaker 1: that that really is the true definition of terrorism. There
Speaker 1: you're you're inspiring terror in the victim. UM. Now would
Speaker 1: this be nationwide? Probably not. For one thing, the electric
Speaker 1: grid is really much a pretty much a regional kind
Speaker 1: of thing. UM. But it's something that every region could
Speaker 1: theoretically be vulnerable to without the right security measures in place. UM. I. Now,
Speaker 1: that sort of attack obviously would have to come from
Speaker 1: a much more organized group. UM. It would have to
Speaker 1: come from a country or organization that had a strong
Speaker 1: financial backing to be able to fund the physical side
Speaker 1: of the attack. UM. So that that narrows down the
Speaker 1: list of possible suspects who could do that. But it's
Speaker 1: still within the realm of possibility. And it's one of
Speaker 1: those things that you know, keep security people up at night.
Speaker 1: Sure sure UM. And you know, I'm really not certain
Speaker 1: what we're going to be able to do short of
Speaker 1: pulling all the plugs um to make it h an
Speaker 1: impost complete and utter impossibility that they could carry out
Speaker 1: those kinds of attacks, because UM, it's just going to
Speaker 1: require constant monitoring and searching for vulnerabilities. That's why the
Speaker 1: efforts of those who are participating in those um those
Speaker 1: computer security uh war games, if you will, UM, there
Speaker 1: they're so important because they're searching, they're actively searching for
Speaker 1: those vulnerabilities in the system and try, you know, to
Speaker 1: try to find ways to patch them up before they
Speaker 1: can be hacked into. But um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: that any time that you update those systems, you're going
Speaker 1: to open up new vulnerabilities and new problems. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's just one of those things where the people who
Speaker 1: whose job it is to pay attention to it are
Speaker 1: just going to have to stay constantly vigilant to prevent
Speaker 1: something like that from happening. And it is even more
Speaker 1: complicated when you think that. You know, not every system
Speaker 1: runs on the same software or operating system or whatever,
Speaker 1: so some of them are proprietary and uh and and
Speaker 1: so you might find something that works as a great
Speaker 1: security measure for one system, but it's not at all
Speaker 1: applicable to any other. So it is a huge challenge.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, what's the response to that. Do you
Speaker 1: go ahead and try and standardize everything so that hopefully
Speaker 1: the same measures will work across the board. Because if
Speaker 1: you do that and someone does find a vulnerability, suddenly
Speaker 1: they've got a vulnerability that works across all systems. So
Speaker 1: I mean it's a yeah, it's a double edged sword,
Speaker 1: and it's it's there are no easy answers. We've got
Speaker 1: people who are way smarter than I am working on
Speaker 1: this UM and I wish them the best because this
Speaker 1: is this is scary stuff. Now. Are we all in
Speaker 1: danger of something like this happening anytime soon? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not staying up at night worrying the next
Speaker 1: day about that's going to be the day when the
Speaker 1: cyber war attack is going to happen. But it's I mean,
Speaker 1: it is possible. It's just not necessarily something that you
Speaker 1: know that I'm gonna have to worry about on a
Speaker 1: day to day basis. Well, the more systems come online
Speaker 1: UM in more places around the world, I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be it becomes sort of like you know,
Speaker 1: aerial assaults were after you know, that became a real
Speaker 1: possibility in the twentieth century. It's it's going to be
Speaker 1: something that a well planned military strategy is going to include.
Speaker 1: You got your ground groops, you know, air see and internet.
Speaker 1: Anything that can take down the computer network, the computer
Speaker 1: the communications network, the power grid, all at one time.
Speaker 1: If you can do that, then you know you'll panic
Speaker 1: the citizenry, and that just gives you a better chance.
Speaker 1: I can pretty much guarantee that just about every modern
Speaker 1: nation in the world has some sort of plan like
Speaker 1: that in place. Um, and I can also guarantee that
Speaker 1: they're not going to share that because that kind of
Speaker 1: defeats the purpose of the plan. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: my Internet connection goes down plenty without anybody attacking it.
Speaker 1: So and I occasionally lose power if I sneeze too hard,
Speaker 1: so or maybe a blackout. It's one of the two
Speaker 1: either way. All right, then I'm done. I'm yeah. That's
Speaker 1: all I have divulge to the public. That wraps up
Speaker 1: that classic episode of tech stuff. Like I said, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot has happened in the the you know, twelve
Speaker 1: years since we recorded that episode. Uh, things have have
Speaker 1: evolved dramatically. We have all sorts of different threats. We
Speaker 1: have to be aware of things like like uh, like
Speaker 1: supply chain threats like we saw with the solar winds hack.
Speaker 1: That's just one example. So when Friday's episode publishes, I'll
Speaker 1: have a more full discussion about cybersecurity in general. As
Speaker 1: well as why are we seeing the various departments within
Speaker 1: the United States Defense Department lagging behind when it comes
Speaker 1: to cybersecurity, what might be done about it, how does
Speaker 1: China factor into it? And more so, tune into Friday's
Speaker 1: episode for a deeper dive into all of that. I
Speaker 1: appreciate your patients. This means we will not have a
Speaker 1: classic episode on Friday, So today was your classic episode.
Speaker 1: And as always, if you have such austions for topics
Speaker 1: I should cover in tech stuff, whether it's a specific technology,
Speaker 1: a trend, a company, maybe that's the history of a
Speaker 1: tech that you want to know more about. Reach out
Speaker 1: to me on Twitter. The handle for the show is
Speaker 1: text stuff H s W and I'll talk to you
Speaker 1: again really soon. Y tex Stuff is an I Heart
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