WEBVTT - Growing Meat from Cells 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.116 Pushkin. Meat is expensive. It's costly, and it's costly in 0:00:25.156 --> 0:00:27.716 a few different ways, on a few different dimensions. For 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:30.516 one thing, it just costs a lot to grow a 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:34.596 cow or to go out and catch a wild salmon. Also, 0:00:35.076 --> 0:00:39.276 meat is costly for the environment. Cows are absurdly large 0:00:39.276 --> 0:00:44.396 contributors to climate change and habitat loss. Wildfish stocks are declining. 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:49.076 Fish farming is associated with pollution. Also, a lot of 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:53.036 what farmfish are fed is wildfish, which in turn adds 0:00:53.076 --> 0:00:56.516 to the decline in wildfish stocks. As a result of 0:00:56.556 --> 0:00:58.916 all this, people are trying to figure out how to 0:00:58.916 --> 0:01:02.476 make food that is like meat but does not require 0:01:02.556 --> 0:01:07.036 growing and killing animals. Plant based fake meat has been 0:01:07.076 --> 0:01:11.556 around for a while impossible beyond, but I would argue 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:15.996 that a limiting factor is right there in the name plant. 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:21.116 There is another strategy, a strategy that is technically harder, 0:01:21.596 --> 0:01:23.996 that's not as far along, but that in the long 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:28.116 run might be more promising, growing meat from animal cells 0:01:28.636 --> 0:01:38.356 without ever growing the animal. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:40.116 is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to 0:01:40.156 --> 0:01:43.596 people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest 0:01:43.596 --> 0:01:46.996 today is Justin Kolbeck, Justin is the co founder and 0:01:47.036 --> 0:01:50.596 CEO of a company called wild Type. Earlier this year, 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:54.756 wild Type started selling what they call cultivated salmon at 0:01:54.756 --> 0:01:57.796 a few restaurants around the country. The key ingredient in 0:01:57.876 --> 0:02:02.196 cultivated salmon is cells that originally came from a real salmon, 0:02:02.556 --> 0:02:05.236 but are grown in a metal vat, kind of like 0:02:05.236 --> 0:02:08.916 the way you brew beer. Justin's problem is this, how 0:02:08.956 --> 0:02:12.276 do you grow salmon cells in a vat, turn them 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:16.156 into something that looks and tastes like salmon, and sell 0:02:16.196 --> 0:02:20.636 that for the same price as wild caught salmon. Justin 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:22.996 started off by telling me about this thing that happened 0:02:23.116 --> 0:02:26.596 about a decade ago. He was visiting his friend Aria 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:30.956 Elfinbine at Aria's lab in San Francisco. Aria is a 0:02:30.956 --> 0:02:34.596 cardiologist and he was growing heart muscle cells in his lab. 0:02:34.876 --> 0:02:37.476 What was really interesting about that visit is Ari and 0:02:37.516 --> 0:02:41.036 I were both having a conversation about what's the best 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:43.556 way to make food. Should we think about a plant 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:45.956 based approach or should we use cells? And it was 0:02:45.996 --> 0:02:49.076 an active debate because at the time, Impossible Food it 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:51.556 was rolling out at Momofuku in New York. There were 0:02:51.556 --> 0:02:54.316 lines around the block. People were really excited about what 0:02:54.356 --> 0:02:59.356 plants could do, and he showed me under the microscope 0:02:59.956 --> 0:03:04.276 a dish with beating human cardiomyocytes. So these are human 0:03:04.716 --> 0:03:10.076 heart muscle cells, and at the cellular level they have 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:14.916 a pacemaking ability, so they beat just like our heart does. 0:03:15.116 --> 0:03:17.756 Each cell sort of regulates itself. 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:20.596 To be the cell. Yeah, like this is way before 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:22.716 it becomes the full organ. This is just like the 0:03:22.756 --> 0:03:27.836 most basic building block of the human heart. And that 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:31.276 was a hugely impactful moment for me, because you know, 0:03:31.316 --> 0:03:33.236 Ari had kind of always told me, hey, cells know 0:03:33.276 --> 0:03:35.516 what to do all the way down to the most 0:03:35.556 --> 0:03:38.436 basic level. They are programmed to become the building blocks 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.116 of our of our various parts of our body. But 0:03:41.236 --> 0:03:45.196 seeing it beat was really an incredible moment for me, right, 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:50.676 And also it made the feet of turning cells into meat. 0:03:51.916 --> 0:03:53.956 Sorry that that rhymed a bit I didn't intend it to, 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:58.436 did it seem a little bit more doable, quite honestly, right, Like, 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:02.516 here are these scientists that are growing functional human beating 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:07.796 heart cells for therapeutic purposes. Making a non functional piece 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:12.276 of meat just for human consumption seemed not trivial by comparison, 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:13.676 but a bit easier like, if. 0:04:13.596 --> 0:04:17.036 You could literally grow human heart self that beat on 0:04:17.116 --> 0:04:18.916 their own in the lab, surely we could make just 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:21.316 a slab of dead salmon for people to eat. 0:04:21.476 --> 0:04:25.836 Yes, exactly. And you know, and I wouldn't say that 0:04:25.876 --> 0:04:28.036 all of my doubts went away in that moment, but 0:04:28.676 --> 0:04:30.876 I did get it. I understood the sort of power 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:32.236 of what this technology could do. 0:04:33.796 --> 0:04:37.196 So you were already by this time thinking about food, 0:04:37.276 --> 0:04:41.796 and in particular thinking about alternatives to traditional meat. Like 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:44.916 why why were you too thinking about that at that time? 0:04:45.956 --> 0:04:48.796 I think we came at this from slightly different angles. 0:04:49.836 --> 0:04:55.596 Ari and I. So my most recent overseas assignment as 0:04:55.636 --> 0:04:59.476 a foreign service officer was in a place called Paktika, Afghanistan. 0:05:01.036 --> 0:05:02.876 At the time I was there, which was two thousand 0:05:02.876 --> 0:05:06.356 and oh, boy, ten to eleven, it's a long time 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:10.396 ago now, Afghanistan was the third most food and secure 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:12.956 country in the world, and the place where I was, 0:05:12.996 --> 0:05:15.756 which was on the eastern part of the country right 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:18.676 on the border with Pakistan, was one of the most 0:05:18.676 --> 0:05:22.836 food and secure provinces in that incredibly food and secure country, 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:27.716 and I saw people do incredible things to feed their families. 0:05:28.476 --> 0:05:30.676 It was non inconsequential part of why a lot of 0:05:30.716 --> 0:05:33.316 people signed up to become members of the Talban quite honestly, 0:05:33.916 --> 0:05:36.236 to get a paycheck and essentially be able to feed 0:05:36.276 --> 0:05:40.276 their family. I came home from that assignment thinking a 0:05:40.276 --> 0:05:43.756 lot about food security, and so when Aria started talking 0:05:43.836 --> 0:05:46.076 to me about the power of this technology, I got 0:05:46.156 --> 0:05:48.916 really excited because it was at least part of an 0:05:48.916 --> 0:05:51.756 answer to a question that had been tumbling around in 0:05:51.796 --> 0:05:54.316 my head, which was where's all the food going to 0:05:54.396 --> 0:05:56.476 come from for the next three billion people that are 0:05:56.516 --> 0:05:58.836 going to show up on planet Earth? And by the way, 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:00.636 they all want to eat more like us here in 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:02.876 North America, So a lot of meat, a lot of dairy, 0:06:03.476 --> 0:06:09.596 a lot of seafood. And it seemed like a very compelling, interesting, 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:11.196 partial solution to that. 0:06:11.476 --> 0:06:16.156 So, okay, so you have this in your mind, you 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:22.156 see the beating heart cells through a microscope, right, and 0:06:22.196 --> 0:06:24.716 then what like, how do you get from there to 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:28.916 deciding to start a company to make salmon out of cells? 0:06:29.596 --> 0:06:31.476 So the first thing that I needed to get over 0:06:32.196 --> 0:06:35.596 internally was does as technology have promised? And it was 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:38.596 clear to me that it did. The second thing was, Okay, well, 0:06:38.596 --> 0:06:42.116 can we actually do it? And can we make enough 0:06:42.156 --> 0:06:44.556 cells to cook something up and put it in our 0:06:44.596 --> 0:06:47.756 mouths and chew it. And so that's what we did. 0:06:47.876 --> 0:06:50.476 And so at the end of twenty sixteen we started 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:54.756 talking to potential for lack of a better word, rent 0:06:54.756 --> 0:06:57.756 a bench locations on the West Coast. We ended up 0:06:57.796 --> 0:06:59.556 at this great place that at the time was called 0:06:59.636 --> 0:07:03.916 QB three. Now it's called NBC Biolabs in San Francisco. 0:07:03.956 --> 0:07:06.436 They have a few of them now. But what was 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:08.676 incredible at the time is you could rent for I 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:12.396 think the price was eight hundred and fifty bucks a month. 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:15.436 You could have dedicated bench space. It wasn't much. It 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:16.996 was like the size of the dust that I'm sitting 0:07:16.996 --> 0:07:17.356 at now. 0:07:17.396 --> 0:07:20.356 But is it just full of mad scientists with weird 0:07:20.436 --> 0:07:23.916 o dreams cooking things up? What's going on in there? Yeah? 0:07:23.916 --> 0:07:26.396 And other than us and one other person who was 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:30.596 also working on some food applications, everybody was working on biotech, 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:33.876 healthcare type of stuff, right. And the advantage of this 0:07:33.996 --> 0:07:36.276 place is at the time Ri n I still had 0:07:36.276 --> 0:07:38.196 full time jobs and we were funding this from our 0:07:38.596 --> 0:07:41.436 savings and from our salaries, so it didn't cost a 0:07:41.476 --> 0:07:43.236 lot to get up and running. We had access to 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:46.076 like millions of dollars of state of the art equipment 0:07:46.116 --> 0:07:48.436 that we could rent. And so, you know, we spent 0:07:48.516 --> 0:07:53.596 the first part of twenty seventeen trying to find some 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:57.076 animals that we could isolate sales from, right and that 0:07:57.156 --> 0:07:59.876 included you know, obviously fish, which we ended up working on, 0:07:59.996 --> 0:08:02.476 but also some chicken. In the early days, it was 0:08:02.476 --> 0:08:04.036 just a little bit easier to get a hold of 0:08:04.596 --> 0:08:06.836 fertilized eggs, for example, which are full of the kinds 0:08:06.876 --> 0:08:09.316 of sales that you need for starting a selling the 0:08:09.356 --> 0:08:11.996 purposes that we need them for, you know. And I 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:16.476 remember when we grew our first real full dish of 0:08:17.396 --> 0:08:19.916 chicken muscle cells. It was before we you know, at 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:22.676 the time, we were like literally going fishing to like 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:26.436 find a fish, and you know it's called fishing and 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:28.756 not catching. So you know, we went fishing a few 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:30.356 times and we weren't able to get any fish. We 0:08:30.356 --> 0:08:33.156 were like down there in the San Francisco docks talking 0:08:33.156 --> 0:08:35.116 to fishermen and being like, hey, I know you just 0:08:35.156 --> 0:08:36.756 caught this fish. Can you cut us off a little 0:08:36.756 --> 0:08:38.396 bit so we can see if we can find some 0:08:39.156 --> 0:08:41.436 life cells. But while we were doing that, because we 0:08:41.476 --> 0:08:43.516 always and we can talk more about this. We always 0:08:43.516 --> 0:08:45.876 saw seafood is like the real place we needed to focus. 0:08:46.676 --> 0:08:49.636 We were working on in parallel some of these kind 0:08:49.636 --> 0:08:52.516 of poultry cell lines, and the first big aha moment 0:08:52.556 --> 0:08:54.796 for me was, you know, we got in a very 0:08:54.796 --> 0:08:57.756 small format, you know, just like your simple dish. We 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:01.116 got chicken muscle cells to grow and then and I 0:09:01.156 --> 0:09:02.956 had this video still to this day of them like 0:09:03.036 --> 0:09:06.996 kind of spontaneously contracting like our muscles, still, right, And 0:09:07.516 --> 0:09:09.596 just like our muscles, if you give them the right 0:09:09.716 --> 0:09:12.236 kind of environment, you can get them to grow and 0:09:12.276 --> 0:09:16.316 to be bigger and all of that. And so eventually 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:19.036 we did find a place where we could reliably get 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:22.036 like fish cells because, as you might imagine, you didn't 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:24.796 come upon the ideal cell line the first time around. 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:27.756 That's not how science works typically. It took us a while, 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:32.156 and it was actually a fish that Aria dissected on 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:37.516 Christmas Eve of twenty eighteen that became the starter yeast 0:09:37.556 --> 0:09:40.996 effectively for the cells that were that were making and 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:42.076 putting into products today. 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:42.876 It was a salmon. 0:09:42.956 --> 0:09:44.716 It was a little salmon, a little salmon. 0:09:44.996 --> 0:09:47.596 So why did you choose? You said, you always knew 0:09:47.596 --> 0:09:49.516 you were going to do seafood, Like, why did you 0:09:49.596 --> 0:09:51.236 choose seafood, Why did you choose salmon? 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:55.676 Yeah, look, there are a couple of reasons. One, we 0:09:55.756 --> 0:10:00.676 wanted to focus on a big potential price, not just 0:10:00.756 --> 0:10:03.116 price like in the monetary sense, but a place to 0:10:03.156 --> 0:10:06.836 have a really big impact. And seafood is our species, 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:10.316 the human species number one source of animal protein, you know, 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:13.596 not driven by us here in North America, but largely 0:10:13.636 --> 0:10:17.156 by other countries around the world. And so that was 0:10:17.196 --> 0:10:20.116 one consideration and the other onse and Ari and I 0:10:20.116 --> 0:10:23.476 felt pretty strongly about this. In the early days, a 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:26.476 lot of people were really getting interested in the plant 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:28.716 based movement. You know, there were certainly those who cared 0:10:28.716 --> 0:10:31.716 about it from like a sustainability perspective, but I think 0:10:31.756 --> 0:10:33.436 there were a lot of people that were just like, Wow, 0:10:33.436 --> 0:10:34.916 I can have a burger and it's going to have 0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:37.676 like lower saturated fat, and maybe this is healthier for 0:10:37.796 --> 0:10:42.156 me than a beef broger. Right, And for seafood, there 0:10:42.236 --> 0:10:45.156 was a really clear reason for people to switch, which 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:49.316 is nobody likes to find a parasite or a worm 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:54.796 in their sushi, and it is absolutely ubiquitous. Nobody likes 0:10:54.956 --> 0:10:58.316 the heavy metals that are present in fish. I think 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:00.556 seafood is just this really complex thing where you like 0:11:00.596 --> 0:11:03.676 ask people like, hey, what's better farm fish or wild caught? 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:05.876 You'll get all kinds of different answers, and you know, 0:11:05.956 --> 0:11:07.476 some of them may or may not be based on 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:11.236 any kind of factual base. But it's complicated, right, And 0:11:11.276 --> 0:11:13.316 so the idea was like, let's just remove all of 0:11:13.316 --> 0:11:17.716 that complication and just make the purest, cleanest seafoot on 0:11:17.756 --> 0:11:19.836 the planet. And that was kind of our north star 0:11:19.956 --> 0:11:20.636 for a long time. 0:11:21.676 --> 0:11:25.596 Okay, so it's late twenty eighteen. You get your first 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:31.076 cells out of the original salmon that is the father 0:11:31.196 --> 0:11:35.756 or mother of everything else, right, So let's just step 0:11:35.836 --> 0:11:38.916 back at that moment and talk about the context of 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:41.436 this broader technology of working with cells. I mean, it 0:11:41.516 --> 0:11:43.836 is the thing people had been working on for some time, right, 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:47.116 both in a medical context and in a like can 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:51.116 we grow meat from sales context? What was the existing 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:54.076 arc on the food side of people trying to grow 0:11:54.516 --> 0:11:57.076 meat from cells at the time you started. 0:11:57.436 --> 0:12:01.756 Interestingly, the very first demonstration of this technology was a 0:12:01.836 --> 0:12:07.156 NASA funded project by a researcher I believe in New 0:12:07.236 --> 0:12:11.916 Jersey whose name was Morris Benjaminson. And he grew goldfish 0:12:11.916 --> 0:12:16.516 cells outside of the goldfish as a proof point that, 0:12:17.196 --> 0:12:19.516 you know, because the basic question they were trying to 0:12:19.516 --> 0:12:23.556 figure out is, Okay, we've got astronauts on long distance 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:26.876 space missions, or maybe we're colonizing Mars one day. We're 0:12:26.996 --> 0:12:30.676 sure as hell not grazing cows on Mars. It's just 0:12:30.716 --> 0:12:32.796 not going to be a thing. So and you know, 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:34.596 we're not going to be able to ship up on 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:38.996 rockets huge amounts of heavy meat for people to eat, right, 0:12:39.036 --> 0:12:40.036 So what are we going to do? 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:40.436 Right? 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:44.556 And I think that was the original impetus for exploring 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:46.636 this kind of technology is can we just make me 0:12:47.476 --> 0:12:52.076 essentially on a spaceship that's traveling through space? And that's 0:12:52.076 --> 0:12:54.556 what this researcher did, and he proved that it could work. 0:12:54.596 --> 0:12:58.316 And when was that just more or less decade nineties 0:12:58.556 --> 0:12:59.196 or nineties? 0:12:59.196 --> 0:13:03.956 Ok, yeah, yeah, so it's a while ago. Then a 0:13:04.276 --> 0:13:10.036 French artist demonstration where he grew some frog muscle cells 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:13.716 that he had sort of isolated from a living frog 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:17.716 and fed them to some people as like an art demonstration. 0:13:18.116 --> 0:13:19.316 Somehow very French. 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:23.916 They must have been smoking, right, I would imagine it 0:13:23.956 --> 0:13:27.236 was like a you know, dark cafe somewhere on the 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:30.396 chamis Luise. Well this I don't know, but the people 0:13:30.476 --> 0:13:33.436 watched the frog was alive kind of while people were 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:35.276 eating its cells. Essentially. 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:37.116 Oh I see, So it didn't harm the frog. They 0:13:37.156 --> 0:13:39.996 whatever scraped them cells off the frog and didn't have 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:42.516 to eat the frog. Yeah, exactly, something sort of like 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:46.676 frog legs without eating that frog's legs or any frog's legs. 0:13:46.996 --> 0:13:49.436 Yeah. But what I loved about this is it wasn't 0:13:49.476 --> 0:13:53.076 like a scientist or biologist. It was just an artist 0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:56.396 who saw a chance to create this like absurd setting 0:13:56.476 --> 0:13:59.236 and just see what happens and document it. And then 0:13:59.276 --> 0:14:02.676 I would say for applications for like more serious applications 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:05.996 toward food started with a Dutch researcher named Mark Post 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:10.876 who made the first cultivated hamburger about a decade ago 0:14:11.436 --> 0:14:13.236 and then ate it on live British TV. 0:14:14.076 --> 0:14:17.076 So that had happened, so people could do it, but 0:14:17.196 --> 0:14:20.436 nobody was doing it at scale or in any kind 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:24.596 of economic way. So what do you have to do? Like, 0:14:24.636 --> 0:14:25.996 what are a few of the things you had to 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:26.556 figure out? 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:28.796 I think a good starting point for that question is 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:31.036 how did Mark Post make his burger? And how much 0:14:31.036 --> 0:14:34.636 did it cost? So that burger costs well over three 0:14:34.716 --> 0:14:37.956 hundred thousand dollars to make, just to put it into perspective. 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:40.676 And the way he grew it was in these things 0:14:40.676 --> 0:14:45.556 called cell factories, which are layered large imagine like a 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:50.076 big plastic circulture dish, but like the size of a desk, 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:54.396 and it's like ten stories tall, right, And he had 0:14:54.876 --> 0:14:58.076 stacks of these. I've seen pictures of it, just piled 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:01.556 up in his lab where they made this initial prototype. 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:04.196 So the first step was like, okay, well that's not 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:06.396 going to work. If we're trying to take plastics out 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:08.156 of fish, we better not be growing it. And he's 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:12.876 just plastic cell hotels, right, not to mention that doesn't scale. 0:15:13.036 --> 0:15:16.316 So the easier move would have been grow the cell 0:15:16.396 --> 0:15:18.916 so that they're sticking to a plastic box. But you 0:15:18.956 --> 0:15:20.916 were you didn't want plastic in the fish, so you 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:21.596 couldn't do that. 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:24.596 Yeah. So look, most cell culture is done in stainless 0:15:24.596 --> 0:15:27.876 steel fermentation tanks that don't look all that different from 0:15:27.876 --> 0:15:28.636 a brew tank. 0:15:28.716 --> 0:15:31.596 So that seems fine, right, Fine, use a metal tank 0:15:32.156 --> 0:15:35.876 instead of a plastic tank. But get well, let's see 0:15:35.916 --> 0:15:37.796 three hundred thousand you need to basically get it to 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:40.276 three dollars, which is how many orders of magnitude? Right 0:15:40.316 --> 0:15:44.436 a lot thirty three hundred, three thousand and thirty thousand, 0:15:44.796 --> 0:15:47.356 five orders of magnitude. You have to get five orders 0:15:47.396 --> 0:15:50.836 of magnitude out right. That seems like the big job. 0:15:51.316 --> 0:15:54.276 Also make salmine, which nobody has done. But frankly, it's 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:56.356 the five orders of magnitude part that seems really hard 0:15:56.356 --> 0:15:56.556 to me. 0:15:56.796 --> 0:15:59.036 So here's how we did it, and it was it 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.036 was really three things. One it was to start with 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:03.196 the right cells, right, like I was talking about, So 0:16:03.276 --> 0:16:05.596 train the ones they can grow in a beer brewery 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:07.236 instead of these cell hotels. 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:10.236 And is that just a matter of choosing the right 0:16:10.436 --> 0:16:13.076 kind of cell? Is it just trial and error that 0:16:13.116 --> 0:16:15.716 one didn't work, that one didn't work, Oh, that one worked. 0:16:15.516 --> 0:16:15.956 That's right. 0:16:16.356 --> 0:16:16.636 Yeah. 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:20.276 So it was thousands of experiments literally, oh wow, over 0:16:20.316 --> 0:16:23.156 two years to get the right type of cell. 0:16:23.196 --> 0:16:26.276 Just different cell kinds to find one that would reproduce 0:16:26.356 --> 0:16:28.916 in a in essentially a beer brewing vat. 0:16:29.276 --> 0:16:31.836 That's right, different types of salmon. So we used Atlantic 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:34.636 and within Pacific, we use coho and chinook and just 0:16:34.676 --> 0:16:36.996 all these other kinds just to try to change as 0:16:36.996 --> 0:16:38.636 many of the variables as we could, but we got 0:16:38.636 --> 0:16:41.196 there in the end. The second thing was it. 0:16:41.236 --> 0:16:44.116 Was Coho, right, the one that worked was Coho. 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:45.156 Is what won the contest. 0:16:45.756 --> 0:16:46.476 The second thing. 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:51.556 Second thing was what we feed the cells. So in 0:16:51.876 --> 0:16:55.516 pharma cell culture, it's not uncommon for a leader of 0:16:55.556 --> 0:16:58.076 cel feed to cost hundreds of dollars and in fact, 0:16:58.276 --> 0:17:00.276 that's literally what ours cost when we started. 0:17:00.796 --> 0:17:02.916 A leader to cost hundreds of dollars. That's right. 0:17:03.036 --> 0:17:05.356 And you know, just to zoom forward in time a bit, 0:17:05.396 --> 0:17:09.316 we're at like three thousand liters scale now, so it's 0:17:09.316 --> 0:17:12.396 just not tenable and so and by the way, that 0:17:12.676 --> 0:17:15.796 feed has a lot of animal components in it, which 0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:18.756 again defeats the purpose. Like if we're growing cells outside 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.436 of an animal, let's not grow it in another animal ingredients. 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:24.436 So then we had to put the cells on a 0:17:24.436 --> 0:17:28.596 plant based diet and reduce the cost like crazy, right, 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:30.236 and just to give you sent So we went from 0:17:30.316 --> 0:17:32.236 hundreds of dollars a lead to like about a buck 0:17:32.276 --> 0:17:32.556 a liter. 0:17:32.676 --> 0:17:36.396 Now, okay, and how much meat do you get out 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:38.476 of a leader of feed? I guess that is that 0:17:38.516 --> 0:17:39.916 another optimization problem? 0:17:39.956 --> 0:17:43.156 It is, that's right, Yeah, yeah, and I'll put that 0:17:43.196 --> 0:17:47.396 as a subset of the cost of the feed. But 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:50.716 while we were reducing the richness of the feed, essentially, 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:55.196 we were also selecting for cells that could grow in 0:17:55.276 --> 0:17:57.716 a very healthy way at higher densities. So we can 0:17:57.756 --> 0:18:01.796 get let's say, instead of a gram a leader, we 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:04.116 can get ten grams a lead, or twenty grams a leader, 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:06.356 or one hundred grams a leader, right somewhere in that range, 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:08.516 like where we're ten or one hundred x. Ying with 0:18:08.676 --> 0:18:12.956 some of these efficiencies would be The third thing that 0:18:12.996 --> 0:18:15.676 we had to do was to scale all this up, 0:18:16.436 --> 0:18:21.956 so move it into larger and larger cultivation centers essentially. 0:18:22.676 --> 0:18:26.396 So that was definitely not trivial, and that was more 0:18:26.836 --> 0:18:28.916 less of a biology thing, more of an engineering thing, 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:32.316 like how do we keep the thing sterile? How do 0:18:32.316 --> 0:18:35.396 we ensure that we're keeping the cells happy? Like nobody 0:18:35.436 --> 0:18:39.996 had ever studied three D fish cell culture before to 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:42.796 the point where like we were, like, what temperature should 0:18:42.796 --> 0:18:45.756 we grow the mat Almost all cells that are grown 0:18:45.836 --> 0:18:48.396 for therapeutic use are grown at our body temperature, right 0:18:48.436 --> 0:18:51.676 thirty seven celsius, never ninety eight point seven fahrenheit. 0:18:51.836 --> 0:18:53.516 What's the body temperature? Of a salmon. 0:18:53.836 --> 0:18:55.476 It's cold there, cold. 0:18:55.276 --> 0:18:57.436 Was what whatever? The water is? 0:18:57.556 --> 0:18:59.556 Yeah, yeah, and they have a range that they can tolerate. 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:01.836 It's pretty broad actually, which is why this was an 0:19:01.876 --> 0:19:05.036 interesting question. And so yeah, that was a big process. 0:19:05.116 --> 0:19:08.396 But once we got it, I would say, into our 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:11.956 first stainless steel tank, it got a lot easier. 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:14.996 How does that work? By the way, so you start 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:18.756 with a cell, how do you get from a cell 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:21.836 to a piece of salmon that I can eat? 0:19:21.996 --> 0:19:23.836 Yeah, So what we do is, you know, for now, 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:26.076 we're growing cells. Like I said, kind of the maxi 0:19:26.076 --> 0:19:28.316 bawling that we're at is three thousand liters, which, again, 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:30.076 if you've been to a microbrewery and you like kind 0:19:30.076 --> 0:19:32.556 of peer at all those big stanless steel tanks or whatever, 0:19:32.676 --> 0:19:35.516 twenty feet tall, looks like that one of those. 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:38.756 One of those okay, yep, and what's going on in there? 0:19:38.956 --> 0:19:40.996 So we've got a it's not not that complicated. So 0:19:41.036 --> 0:19:44.156 we've got a little propeller like a literally we could 0:19:44.196 --> 0:19:47.316 have like strapped one on from a boat. It circulates 0:19:47.316 --> 0:19:51.356 oxygen in the in the tank. We control the pH 0:19:51.396 --> 0:19:53.916 we can control the temperature. We make sure that the 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:57.516 oxygen in there is sufficient. But we're literally just stirring 0:19:57.556 --> 0:20:00.916 cells in their feed for ten days, ten to ten 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:06.476 to fifteen days. At that point, we centrifuge or you know, 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:10.116 just spin at high speeds, remove the sel feed, We 0:20:10.276 --> 0:20:13.196 wash it a few times, we concentrate it kind of 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:15.676 into pure salmon protein essentially. 0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:18.836 So what you have first is a lump of salmon 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:24.916 cells essentially, shapeless, shapeless, just like a goo. It's like 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:27.916 a goo. Is it a orange? Dumb question? Is it orange? 0:20:28.276 --> 0:20:31.556 It's not orange. It looks like kind of the white 0:20:31.596 --> 0:20:34.716 part of the salmon, you know, like connective tissue part. 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:38.516 And yeah, So what we do is we then combine 0:20:38.556 --> 0:20:42.956 that with some plant based ingredients, mix it, shape it. 0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:45.436 We actually have a heating step to make sure that 0:20:45.436 --> 0:20:47.396 we're killing off any microbes that might have found their way. 0:20:47.396 --> 0:20:49.356 Because it's all ready to eat sushi product. We want 0:20:49.396 --> 0:20:53.276 to make sure it's as safe as possible and slice it, 0:20:53.316 --> 0:20:55.316 package it, X ray it, and send it out the door. 0:20:55.836 --> 0:20:59.996 So you work on this for many years and then 0:21:01.356 --> 0:21:08.116 this year, it's this spring you got something from the 0:21:08.196 --> 0:21:11.316 FDA that is called a no questions letter, So that 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:14.716 basically mean FDA approval. What does that mean what happened 0:21:14.716 --> 0:21:15.676 with the FDA this year. 0:21:16.356 --> 0:21:20.636 So there's a process on the food side, and this 0:21:20.756 --> 0:21:22.636 was a process that was done for our industry, it's 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:26.076 done for other types of food. You submit a safety dossier, 0:21:26.196 --> 0:21:29.156 that's what it's called, so a summary of how a 0:21:29.316 --> 0:21:31.996 producing company came to the conclusion that a new food 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:35.636 manufacturing technology, which is what we're doing, so familiar food, 0:21:35.836 --> 0:21:40.036 new technology or a new food is safe. Right, And 0:21:40.036 --> 0:21:43.436 so you compile this dossier with lots of supporting data. 0:21:44.036 --> 0:21:47.556 And what that did is it then kicked off a 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:50.116 three year process of back and forth questions with the FDA. 0:21:50.396 --> 0:21:52.916 It should be called a no more Questions letter. 0:21:52.996 --> 0:21:55.676 That's right, That's exactly what it is. Right, So once 0:21:55.676 --> 0:21:58.996 the questions have been satisfied, they don't have any further questions. 0:21:58.996 --> 0:22:01.876 And you know, they issued a statement that essentially said, 0:22:02.396 --> 0:22:05.116 we agree with wild types of conclusion that the food 0:22:05.396 --> 0:22:09.636 made using this technology is no more, no less, and 0:22:09.836 --> 0:22:11.916 food isolated from a conventional fish. 0:22:12.436 --> 0:22:12.636 Right. 0:22:13.156 --> 0:22:16.116 That's what we were working toward, is some degree of 0:22:16.436 --> 0:22:20.716 external validation that this new and somewhat crazy sounding technology 0:22:20.756 --> 0:22:23.796 can produce food that's very, very safe. And indeed, like 0:22:23.876 --> 0:22:26.676 we talked about a bit earlier, quite a bit safer uncertain. 0:22:26.596 --> 0:22:33.076 Respects specifically, metal content and parasite or pathogen content. 0:22:33.116 --> 0:22:36.956 Are those the two exactly? Yeah? So lysteria, for example, 0:22:37.076 --> 0:22:40.076 is a big challenge with any kind of fish, right, 0:22:40.196 --> 0:22:42.756 and because of the way that we produce our food, 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:47.396 we're significantly able to reduce that risk. Not to mention, 0:22:48.756 --> 0:22:52.436 heavy metals are in some cases orders of magnitude lower 0:22:52.476 --> 0:22:55.356 than what you'd find in conventional fish. Parasites cannot grow 0:22:55.476 --> 0:22:58.396 in our environment. So if you want to guarantee that 0:22:58.396 --> 0:23:01.716 there's no worm or parasite in your fish, like wild type, 0:23:01.756 --> 0:23:04.276 sim is literally the only optional planet Earth that can 0:23:04.476 --> 0:23:08.476 meet that. And we don't use antibiotics, so, which are 0:23:08.476 --> 0:23:10.836 still fairly prevalent and a lot of fish farming today. 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:13.276 So what's your cost? Now? What have you gotten your cost? 0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:15.836 Down to the way that we like to think about 0:23:15.836 --> 0:23:18.476 it is if we were at scale, what would our 0:23:18.916 --> 0:23:21.596 actual marginal cost be, right based on the inputs that 0:23:21.596 --> 0:23:25.116 we're using, And today those inputs are about ten bucks 0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:25.476 a pound. 0:23:26.276 --> 0:23:29.276 So when you say at scale, how much bigger is that? 0:23:29.676 --> 0:23:32.276 How much bigger do you have to be? Like, I 0:23:32.276 --> 0:23:33.796 don't know how much more fish do you have to make. 0:23:33.916 --> 0:23:35.156 I don't know, I don't know the right way to 0:23:35.196 --> 0:23:35.716 ask that question. 0:23:35.876 --> 0:23:37.916 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, get I get your question. So 0:23:39.076 --> 0:23:41.916 the best way to think about this is, you know, 0:23:41.956 --> 0:23:44.396 we are at micro brewery scale. 0:23:44.556 --> 0:23:46.396 Now, how much fish do you make it a week? 0:23:46.556 --> 0:23:50.156 We make whatever, a few hundred pounds a week, right, 0:23:50.276 --> 0:23:53.436 So it's not it's not enough. It's not enough. 0:23:53.876 --> 0:23:56.036 No, it's not enough. When you say ten dollars a pound, 0:23:56.116 --> 0:23:57.836 how many pounds of fish you got to be making 0:23:57.956 --> 0:24:01.076 a week for it to have your cost be ten 0:24:01.116 --> 0:24:02.116 dollars a pound, it's more. 0:24:02.116 --> 0:24:04.276 Like one thousand pounds a week. Is where we need 0:24:04.276 --> 0:24:04.476 to be. 0:24:04.676 --> 0:24:06.156 That's not crazy, that's not crazy. 0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:09.476 It's not And the reason our costs are so highs 0:24:09.516 --> 0:24:11.636 because our volumes are low. You know, we just launched 0:24:11.636 --> 0:24:12.196 a quarter ago. 0:24:12.516 --> 0:24:12.956 Yeah yeah. 0:24:12.996 --> 0:24:14.636 Rent is expensive in San Francisco. 0:24:14.796 --> 0:24:17.756 Yeah yeah, we started with a three hundred thousand dollars hamburger. 0:24:17.756 --> 0:24:18.956 You're most of the way there. 0:24:19.036 --> 0:24:21.596 I think so. But but you know, the last bit 0:24:21.636 --> 0:24:23.436 of the way is tough. And the reason it's tough 0:24:23.516 --> 0:24:28.876 is because there's not a lot of interest I would say, 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:33.796 among either banks or project financers to put money into 0:24:33.876 --> 0:24:37.476 capital intensive projects today, huh, and the path for us 0:24:37.516 --> 0:24:39.356 And you know, again this should not be surprising. And 0:24:39.396 --> 0:24:41.996 that's why I'm kind of using the micro brewery analogy. 0:24:42.116 --> 0:24:42.276 Right. 0:24:42.316 --> 0:24:45.996 A lot of microbreweries at their scale are not super profitable. 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:47.116 In fact, a lot of them have gone out of 0:24:47.156 --> 0:24:49.396 business in the last five years. There is kind of 0:24:49.396 --> 0:24:53.876 a minimum efficient scale problem with what we're doing and 0:24:53.876 --> 0:24:55.076 what a lot of other industries doing. 0:24:55.196 --> 0:24:58.036 So your problem at this moment is finance getting You've 0:24:58.076 --> 0:25:01.316 had this sort of venture financing. Was that one hundred 0:25:01.356 --> 0:25:03.116 million dollars that you raised to iver call that? Is 0:25:03.156 --> 0:25:03.876 that the correct number? 0:25:03.996 --> 0:25:05.756 Yeah, about one hundred and thirty million total. 0:25:05.876 --> 0:25:08.396 So now you have a sort of more capital intensive 0:25:08.396 --> 0:25:10.316 that was like you get your IP lined up, you 0:25:11.036 --> 0:25:13.316 develop your product, and now you have this more sort 0:25:13.356 --> 0:25:17.636 of classic financing problem where you need is not equity finance, 0:25:17.676 --> 0:25:20.596 but like alone to build a bigger production plant. And 0:25:20.636 --> 0:25:21.876 that's hard to get exactly. 0:25:22.276 --> 0:25:24.196 It's it's really hard to get in twenty twenty five. 0:25:24.676 --> 0:25:26.596 But that's what we need to do. And you know, 0:25:26.636 --> 0:25:29.156 the thing is it's not really all that interesting or 0:25:29.196 --> 0:25:32.356 sexy at this point because it's not proving out brand 0:25:32.356 --> 0:25:35.316 new science it's just building bigger facilities and spreading fixed 0:25:35.316 --> 0:25:36.676 costs over bigger volumes. 0:25:37.316 --> 0:25:40.396 There is a broader lab grown meat. It's not really 0:25:40.436 --> 0:25:42.596 an industry yet, but there are a few other companies 0:25:42.636 --> 0:25:45.316 that have what is it two other companies that have 0:25:45.396 --> 0:25:48.276 been approved to sell lab grown chicken in the US? Right? 0:25:49.956 --> 0:25:50.836 How are they doing? 0:25:50.916 --> 0:25:50.996 Like? 0:25:51.116 --> 0:25:55.596 Is there some like more narrowly? Are they struggling with 0:25:55.636 --> 0:25:57.836 the same thing you are? Is there a sense of like, oh, 0:25:57.876 --> 0:26:00.396 maybe people don't want to buy lab grown meat, or 0:26:00.396 --> 0:26:01.276 at least not yet. 0:26:02.316 --> 0:26:05.516 I'm not sure. I don't have the best information about. 0:26:05.516 --> 0:26:07.356 So the two other companies you're talking about are Upside 0:26:07.356 --> 0:26:12.556 Foods and each just they're both but also in San Francisco. 0:26:13.076 --> 0:26:15.356 Neither of them are selling their products and restaurants today, 0:26:15.356 --> 0:26:17.796 though I can't really speak as to why that is. 0:26:17.876 --> 0:26:20.196 It's more I'm selling in Singapore or something. It is 0:26:20.196 --> 0:26:21.076 one of these things. 0:26:21.196 --> 0:26:23.996 So there are two companies selling cultivated foods on planet 0:26:24.036 --> 0:26:27.516 Earth today, okay. One is Wild Type, which is selling 0:26:27.556 --> 0:26:30.876 salmon in four restaurants in four states today in the 0:26:30.956 --> 0:26:33.596 United States. The other is a company called val which 0:26:33.636 --> 0:26:36.556 is based in Australia and they make a cultivated quail 0:26:36.636 --> 0:26:40.756 product that's available for people to try in Singapore and 0:26:40.796 --> 0:26:44.476 Australia today and that's it. So there's all this noise, 0:26:44.876 --> 0:26:47.436 but what it boils down to is just a couple 0:26:47.436 --> 0:26:51.636 of companies selling products in about say ten restaurants around 0:26:51.636 --> 0:26:54.556 the world. We're at the starting line, I would. 0:26:54.316 --> 0:26:57.036 Say, yeah, Like, why is it so small? 0:26:57.956 --> 0:27:00.916 So first, there's a regulatory hurdle, which is really hard, 0:27:01.076 --> 0:27:03.276 and as you said, you know, there's I think five 0:27:03.356 --> 0:27:06.316 companies in the US that have cleared that hurdle. Then 0:27:06.356 --> 0:27:10.636 there's the manufacturing side of things, right, So part of 0:27:10.676 --> 0:27:14.316 the proceeds or use of proceeds for the amount of 0:27:14.356 --> 0:27:16.876 money that we raised was to build this first of 0:27:16.916 --> 0:27:21.716 its kind cultivated seafood facility in San Francisco. And it 0:27:21.756 --> 0:27:24.036 wasn't a trivial amount of money, right that we spent 0:27:24.076 --> 0:27:27.916 on that. And it's really hard to scale the stuff up. Yeah, so, 0:27:28.276 --> 0:27:31.836 and I think that's part of the reason why very 0:27:31.876 --> 0:27:34.756 few companies have actually just made it over the regulatory, 0:27:34.836 --> 0:27:37.516 the scaling, and the technical hurdles to get something into 0:27:37.516 --> 0:27:37.916 the market. 0:27:37.956 --> 0:27:42.036 Today, I'm less hopeful than I was when we started talking. 0:27:42.316 --> 0:27:45.076 Can ask why please, Yeah. 0:27:44.436 --> 0:27:49.596 Well maybe I I don't know why. It's just the vibe. 0:27:49.756 --> 0:27:51.236 I feel like, I don't know how you're going to 0:27:51.276 --> 0:27:52.916 get that money. How are you going to get that money? 0:27:53.236 --> 0:28:00.076 We'll figure it out. Look, I think no new industry, 0:28:00.156 --> 0:28:03.276 no new technology, is easy. What we're trying to do 0:28:03.396 --> 0:28:05.836 is ambitious and it's really freaking hard, and it is 0:28:05.876 --> 0:28:09.436 not for the faint of heart, but it's important, right, 0:28:09.556 --> 0:28:13.516 Like my six year old kids, I have twins, When 0:28:13.516 --> 0:28:15.916 I hear them explain what my work is, they're like, hey, 0:28:15.956 --> 0:28:20.476 my daddy grows fish, so we don't have to kill 0:28:20.476 --> 0:28:23.356 the fish. Like they just get it and it's obvious. 0:28:23.476 --> 0:28:25.876 Like I think most people when you ask them, like, hey, 0:28:25.876 --> 0:28:29.356 what's the future of seafood, they're not going to tell you, Yeah, 0:28:29.436 --> 0:28:30.876 let's just pull all the fish out and have no 0:28:30.956 --> 0:28:33.756 more fish left in the sea. Like, there's this big 0:28:33.876 --> 0:28:35.996 problem that a lot of companies are trying to solve 0:28:35.996 --> 0:28:37.916 from a bunch of different angles. And you know, I 0:28:37.956 --> 0:28:40.796 think it's important enough that it's going to get done, 0:28:40.836 --> 0:28:43.076 and you know, one or two, maybe three companies will 0:28:43.076 --> 0:28:46.516 get through this crunch. Right, But we're at a point 0:28:46.556 --> 0:28:48.716 now as an industry where there were one hundred and 0:28:48.756 --> 0:28:50.676 fifty I don't even know. I don't count them all, 0:28:50.676 --> 0:28:53.876 but I've seen a number of cultivated food companies around 0:28:53.916 --> 0:28:56.476 the world. Not all of those companies are going to 0:28:56.556 --> 0:28:59.876 make it through. Maybe we won't. I am very helpful, however, 0:28:59.996 --> 0:29:04.716 that we will, and very confident actually, because we're making 0:29:04.796 --> 0:29:10.156 something that people want and that the planet needs for 0:29:10.276 --> 0:29:12.876 us to continue to sustainably feed people's seafood. And so 0:29:13.716 --> 0:29:18.316 that moment of doubt pessimism that you were feeling is 0:29:18.396 --> 0:29:21.676 just kind of wired into mine and Aria's brain, right, 0:29:21.716 --> 0:29:23.596 it comes and it goes. We've got down moments and 0:29:23.676 --> 0:29:26.476 we've got high moments, and that's just kind of part 0:29:26.476 --> 0:29:28.436 and parcel of doing something like this. It's hard. 0:29:31.156 --> 0:29:44.116 We'll be back in just a minute. 0:29:44.756 --> 0:29:47.476 Why do you feel so strongly that the world needs 0:29:47.996 --> 0:29:48.996 cultivated salmon? 0:29:49.516 --> 0:29:53.196 I would suggest talk to a fisherman, particularly one who's 0:29:53.236 --> 0:29:56.156 been fishing for more than thirty years, about what they've 0:29:56.196 --> 0:29:59.916 seen with wild stocks. But they're going down right. And 0:30:00.076 --> 0:30:03.516 you know, if you look at any data measurement in 0:30:03.636 --> 0:30:06.676 terms of the health of wildfish stocks around the world, 0:30:06.796 --> 0:30:08.636 it's not up and to the right. Many of them 0:30:08.676 --> 0:30:10.796 are being fish at levels that are kind of pushing 0:30:10.796 --> 0:30:14.116 them into endangered species. Right, if you listen or following 0:30:14.156 --> 0:30:18.116 any of David Attenborough's work, any of his recent films, 0:30:18.116 --> 0:30:20.316 I mean, he talks about the ocean. You know, there's 0:30:20.316 --> 0:30:23.676 a real risk that will have an ocean full of 0:30:23.756 --> 0:30:27.036 jellyfish in fifty years if we're not thoughtful. 0:30:26.676 --> 0:30:28.596 And careful and nothing else. 0:30:28.756 --> 0:30:33.276 Yeah, plastic and jellyfish, like yeah, and let's not forget 0:30:33.396 --> 0:30:36.716 that our ocean store like ninety three or ninety four 0:30:36.756 --> 0:30:39.916 percent of the planet's carbon in the soil and the 0:30:39.956 --> 0:30:41.076 seagrass and other things. 0:30:41.156 --> 0:30:41.396 Right. 0:30:41.436 --> 0:30:43.556 So I don't know about you, but I get pretty 0:30:43.596 --> 0:30:46.236 nervous when I think about that delicate ecosystem being so 0:30:46.516 --> 0:30:49.796 thoroughly disrupted. And if you think about the oceans like 0:30:49.876 --> 0:30:54.196 this is like the worst prisoner's dilemma type of thing, 0:30:54.356 --> 0:30:58.276 where you've got this common good and everybody out in 0:30:58.356 --> 0:31:01.076 international waters is doing whatever they can to pull out 0:31:01.116 --> 0:31:03.756 as much fish as possible, make as much money, and 0:31:03.796 --> 0:31:06.876 not everybody's worrying about whether that's going to be sustainable. 0:31:06.996 --> 0:31:10.476 So that's wild caught, and I think most people get 0:31:10.476 --> 0:31:13.236 that there's a finite supply. There's only so an efficientcye 0:31:14.236 --> 0:31:17.556 on the fish farming side. I think what's really underappreciated 0:31:17.636 --> 0:31:19.916 is that a full third of all the aquaculture feed 0:31:19.996 --> 0:31:23.196 comes from forage fish like anchovies and sardines, which are 0:31:23.196 --> 0:31:28.756 well caught and are not infinite in supply, and there 0:31:28.796 --> 0:31:31.076 are real limitations in terms of the number of fish 0:31:31.076 --> 0:31:33.716 farms that you can put in a given area. And 0:31:33.756 --> 0:31:36.796 that's why we're seeing the move toward on land aquaculture 0:31:36.836 --> 0:31:40.036 systems and all these other things. So the confluence of 0:31:40.116 --> 0:31:43.396 all of that. If you don't believe anything I said, 0:31:44.076 --> 0:31:47.356 just go look at salmon prices in real terms versus 0:31:47.356 --> 0:31:49.836 inflation over the last fifteen years and you'll see that 0:31:50.356 --> 0:31:52.996 there isn't five times faster than inflation, which to me 0:31:53.076 --> 0:31:55.756 tells me that we have a real supply problem. 0:31:56.596 --> 0:31:59.956 Salmon getting more expensive is good for you, right, Like, 0:32:00.436 --> 0:32:03.716 if you can make salmon cheaper, then salmon can make salmon. 0:32:06.236 --> 0:32:11.676 You'll win, yes, but the planet loses, right, And I 0:32:11.676 --> 0:32:12.396 think it doesn't. 0:32:12.436 --> 0:32:14.396 Well, it depends, I mean, it depends on how cheap 0:32:14.436 --> 0:32:17.076 you can get it, right, Like, yeah, I don't mean 0:32:17.116 --> 0:32:21.596 to be glib, but like, fundamentally, your price to beat 0:32:21.756 --> 0:32:24.516 is the price of wild caught salmon. Right, just as 0:32:24.556 --> 0:32:28.756 a business proposition, Like that's the sort of solar story, right, 0:32:28.796 --> 0:32:31.036 as you said, like you want people who don't care 0:32:31.556 --> 0:32:34.396 to buy your salmon just because it's cheaper, That's what 0:32:34.556 --> 0:32:37.516 I want, Right, That's the true scale, because most people 0:32:37.516 --> 0:32:40.516 don't care about any particular thing, it's just the nature 0:32:40.556 --> 0:32:43.196 of the world. But they would rather buy cheaper salmon. 0:32:43.236 --> 0:32:45.916 And I'm sure there's an argument that, like people don't 0:32:45.916 --> 0:32:47.956 want cultivated salmon, but I don't buy that. Like if 0:32:47.996 --> 0:32:51.396 you look at the garbage people buy, they plainly don't care, right, 0:32:51.876 --> 0:32:56.516 And so I feel like cost is the game. 0:32:57.196 --> 0:33:00.516 All of this is, I guess, in principle good for us, 0:33:00.556 --> 0:33:02.796 but I know myself and my team we kind of 0:33:03.236 --> 0:33:06.636 think about it at a much broader scale, which is salmon, 0:33:06.636 --> 0:33:08.516 whether we make it or it comes from a fish, 0:33:09.196 --> 0:33:11.036 healthy thing that we should be eating more of, and 0:33:11.116 --> 0:33:14.036 it's not good for society if it becomes less accessible. 0:33:14.196 --> 0:33:16.196 That is why I've got this bur in my saddle 0:33:16.276 --> 0:33:19.236 to scale up this process as quickly as we can, 0:33:19.356 --> 0:33:21.996 and not just for the cost and profitability and all 0:33:22.036 --> 0:33:24.156 that stuff we were just talking about, but just to 0:33:24.196 --> 0:33:26.076 get it to more people and to give people a 0:33:26.116 --> 0:33:27.236 more affordable choice. 0:33:28.116 --> 0:33:32.476 What's the salmon. Like, now, if I got the salmon 0:33:32.556 --> 0:33:35.236 sushi at one of the four restaurants where it's would 0:33:35.236 --> 0:33:35.756 I even know? 0:33:37.756 --> 0:33:40.316 I think it depends. And we've actually tested this, So 0:33:40.356 --> 0:33:43.036 we've done blind taste tests for consumer and we obviously 0:33:43.076 --> 0:33:45.676 tell them that there's potentially cultivated. We're not trying to 0:33:45.716 --> 0:33:46.516 fool anybody, but. 0:33:46.596 --> 0:33:48.076 Sure, sure. Yeah. When I say what I even know, 0:33:48.116 --> 0:33:49.596 I don't mean would they be fooling me? I mean, 0:33:49.596 --> 0:33:50.876 would I be able to distinguish? 0:33:51.076 --> 0:33:52.996 Yeah? Yeah, And so what we what we've done is 0:33:53.036 --> 0:33:54.676 we put like a piece of our locks, you know, 0:33:54.716 --> 0:33:57.676 so like cured and smoked salmon on a little cracker, 0:33:57.796 --> 0:34:00.956 like a water cracker, and a piece of Russen Daughters 0:34:00.996 --> 0:34:04.596 from New York City, which is delicious the best. I agree, 0:34:04.796 --> 0:34:06.996 that's our gold standard, you know, so master credit to 0:34:07.076 --> 0:34:10.556 Russ and Daughters. And the answer is no, you know, 0:34:10.836 --> 0:34:14.316 with like a pretty high degree of like statistical significance, 0:34:14.396 --> 0:34:16.316 we don't see a distinction in liking. 0:34:16.836 --> 0:34:20.076 Is raw salmon harder to make identical? 0:34:20.196 --> 0:34:23.196 It's hard, yeah, And so I think obviously in the 0:34:23.276 --> 0:34:27.156 right chef hands, and you know, obviously in certain preparations, 0:34:27.596 --> 0:34:32.076 it is indistinguishable, which is a huge, huge accomplishment. And 0:34:32.116 --> 0:34:33.796 the cool thing about what we're doing is that it's 0:34:33.796 --> 0:34:34.556 always improving. 0:34:34.756 --> 0:34:36.716 I mean, what would you like to improve on? In 0:34:36.756 --> 0:34:38.956 what ways would you like to make the salmon you're 0:34:38.956 --> 0:34:41.356 making better for me? 0:34:41.676 --> 0:34:43.316 There are a couple of things. The first one I 0:34:43.316 --> 0:34:45.756 think we've nailed in the latest recipe that we're going 0:34:45.836 --> 0:34:48.556 to be releasing soon is the texture, just like a 0:34:48.596 --> 0:34:50.756 really nice fibrous bite, you know, like when you're biting 0:34:50.796 --> 0:34:52.036 like a nice cube of sashimi. 0:34:52.516 --> 0:34:56.156 It's part of what's great about salmon sushi, right, it's 0:34:56.196 --> 0:34:58.996 the texture. It's like both firm but so smooth and 0:34:59.596 --> 0:35:00.196 of all the fat. 0:35:00.276 --> 0:35:02.836 Right, that's right, Yeah, And it's hard to nail. I 0:35:02.836 --> 0:35:04.196 think we're getting pretty darn close. 0:35:04.436 --> 0:35:08.636 In what way is your current version that's out fall short. 0:35:08.556 --> 0:35:11.316 On the text? I'd say it's too homogeneous, Like you 0:35:11.356 --> 0:35:13.156 don't get this sort of like like you know, like 0:35:13.196 --> 0:35:15.196 when your teeth are like biting into like a good 0:35:15.236 --> 0:35:17.436 piece of meat, you kind of feel like the fibers 0:35:18.036 --> 0:35:20.756 ripping a bit at a time. Like with the current version, 0:35:21.196 --> 0:35:24.036 I would say, we haven't you know, fully achieved that 0:35:24.676 --> 0:35:26.436 the thing that we're about to really is does so 0:35:26.876 --> 0:35:29.396 I'm really excited about that. And you know, and the 0:35:29.396 --> 0:35:31.516 other thing is protein. So protein is a big part 0:35:31.516 --> 0:35:33.516 of the reason people like to eat any kind of 0:35:33.516 --> 0:35:36.116 meat or seafood, and we're a bit light there, and 0:35:36.196 --> 0:35:39.796 so it's hard to make a product that is raw 0:35:40.156 --> 0:35:41.356 with equivalent protein. 0:35:41.516 --> 0:35:43.916 It's not obvious to me that that would be the case, Like, 0:35:43.996 --> 0:35:44.796 why is that? 0:35:45.596 --> 0:35:49.636 Because raw fish is like eighty to eighty five percent water, 0:35:51.396 --> 0:35:53.356 and so if you want to have twenty percent protein 0:35:53.396 --> 0:35:55.076 in there, that means a lot of the protein needs 0:35:55.076 --> 0:35:55.956 to be in the water. 0:35:58.116 --> 0:36:00.596 That's the and in a fish, that's just the way 0:36:00.636 --> 0:36:01.116 it works. 0:36:01.316 --> 0:36:05.036 Yeah, yeah, and it's contained in the cells, for example, 0:36:05.316 --> 0:36:10.436 so most cells the water. Yeah, that's a dramatic simplification 0:36:10.516 --> 0:36:13.156 of a quite complex problem. But it's been a challenge 0:36:13.196 --> 0:36:15.116 and I'd say we've made some progress. But those are 0:36:15.116 --> 0:36:16.956 the two things I would like to improve. 0:36:18.156 --> 0:36:20.876 Let's talk about policy. When we were just getting the 0:36:20.956 --> 0:36:23.516 mic set up today, you mentioned that you were had 0:36:23.516 --> 0:36:27.596 a press conference this morning today talking about joining a lawsuit. 0:36:28.316 --> 0:36:30.916 What's going on? Why were you on a press conference 0:36:30.956 --> 0:36:32.556 this morning and what were you talking about? 0:36:32.956 --> 0:36:38.516 So Texas banned cultivated foods effective the first of September, 0:36:39.196 --> 0:36:42.196 which which was really unfortunate because you know, we picked 0:36:42.196 --> 0:36:44.756 Otoko because of the head chef is an incredible person, 0:36:44.836 --> 0:36:47.396 he's an adventurous head chef. 0:36:47.396 --> 0:36:50.476 And this is a restaurant in Austin, Texas. 0:36:50.596 --> 0:36:53.596 Yeah. Yeah, And it was literally like one of five 0:36:53.836 --> 0:36:56.356 that we picked that we wanted to introduce our products 0:36:56.396 --> 0:36:59.156 to the commercial market in. And this decision was made 0:36:59.196 --> 0:37:02.476 way before this band was even like a thought in 0:37:02.876 --> 0:37:06.716 the rancher's minds. But this band went into effect on 0:37:06.756 --> 0:37:08.996 the first and so we had to stop selling at Otoko, 0:37:09.276 --> 0:37:13.196 which is just really unfortunate. And this isn't the first 0:37:13.316 --> 0:37:16.196 date in the Union that has banned cultivated foods, it's 0:37:16.356 --> 0:37:19.876 I believe the seventh. And this is being driven one 0:37:19.956 --> 0:37:23.436 hundred percent by economic protectionism, really by the cattle industry 0:37:23.476 --> 0:37:25.796 who's afraid of competition. 0:37:26.636 --> 0:37:30.756 It does seem like an anti free market, like on 0:37:30.796 --> 0:37:33.156 its face, right, an anti free market move. 0:37:33.276 --> 0:37:34.276 It is like, let. 0:37:34.076 --> 0:37:38.316 People decide they want to eat cows and fish, they can, right, No, 0:37:38.436 --> 0:37:41.556 it is proposed taking away that option. 0:37:41.316 --> 0:37:43.956 That's right, And given everything that we just discussed in 0:37:43.956 --> 0:37:47.716 that moment of pessimism that you felt, yeah, I just 0:37:47.796 --> 0:37:50.796 like they should have bigger things to worry about, right 0:37:50.876 --> 0:37:51.996 than try to ban a. 0:37:52.676 --> 0:37:55.196 Three little companies that can't even get alone to build 0:37:55.196 --> 0:37:55.716 a factory. 0:37:55.916 --> 0:37:59.476 Yeah. Yeah, leave us alone, for God's sake. And I 0:37:59.476 --> 0:38:01.436 think if most Americans heard about this, they would be 0:38:01.476 --> 0:38:04.516 pretty annoyed that now the government's telling us what we 0:38:04.556 --> 0:38:07.076 can and can't eat, And like, if you don't want 0:38:07.076 --> 0:38:11.556 our food, don't eat it. That's fine, But that choice 0:38:11.556 --> 0:38:13.716 should be people's choices. It should not be the choice 0:38:13.756 --> 0:38:20.196 of state legislators who got a strategically timed campaign donation. 0:38:20.836 --> 0:38:24.836 Yeah, so your fish is still at four restaurants around 0:38:24.836 --> 0:38:25.636 the country. 0:38:25.316 --> 0:38:28.436 Then, yeah, So luckily Yoshio Kai has a new restaurant 0:38:28.476 --> 0:38:31.756 in Aspen, so we just moved it over there. So 0:38:32.076 --> 0:38:34.316 we're still in four and we'll be announcing a fifth 0:38:34.316 --> 0:38:36.476 one in the next couple of weeks. 0:38:37.436 --> 0:38:38.996 So what do you have to do to get wider? 0:38:39.116 --> 0:38:41.996 What's your ramp from four to everywhere? 0:38:42.076 --> 0:38:44.236 Yeah? And maybe the question to ask before that is like, 0:38:44.276 --> 0:38:46.356 why did we just start with five? When you're making 0:38:46.436 --> 0:38:48.596 real things like what we're doing food, you don't go 0:38:48.676 --> 0:38:50.676 from It's not like software where you just like write 0:38:50.676 --> 0:38:52.596 a program and distribute to million people. You need to 0:38:52.676 --> 0:38:56.596 ramp up manufacturing, hire people, supply chain all that stuff. 0:38:57.156 --> 0:38:59.716 And so what we've been trying to do is go 0:38:59.876 --> 0:39:04.396 from literally zero three months ago to shipping product every 0:39:04.436 --> 0:39:07.316 week to three or four, soon to be five restaurants 0:39:07.436 --> 0:39:08.236 around the country. 0:39:08.476 --> 0:39:10.556 Well, so should I how is that going? Or like 0:39:10.596 --> 0:39:12.836 are you getting the fish out the door? Is it 0:39:12.916 --> 0:39:15.076 hard to like make the fish every week? 0:39:15.396 --> 0:39:18.436 It's some things have been harder than we expected. Like, 0:39:18.916 --> 0:39:21.836 for example, we had we had like an ingredient provider 0:39:22.116 --> 0:39:26.236 shift their ingredient pretty dramatically. That changed our formulation, so 0:39:26.276 --> 0:39:27.756 we had to adjust that on the fly. So things 0:39:27.756 --> 0:39:30.316 like that that are just kind of part of any 0:39:30.356 --> 0:39:31.556 new products standing. 0:39:31.276 --> 0:39:34.796 Up manufacturing in a way, it's like biomanufacturing, right, what 0:39:34.876 --> 0:39:35.876 you're doing exactly. 0:39:36.676 --> 0:39:40.076 And so from here we are absolutely open to starting 0:39:40.076 --> 0:39:43.876 to ship to more restaurants as demand comes in, and 0:39:43.916 --> 0:39:45.636 we have had quite a few restaurants reach out to 0:39:45.756 --> 0:39:47.836 us and ask if they can start buying it. 0:39:48.716 --> 0:39:50.796 That's good and is the answer yes? 0:39:51.196 --> 0:39:52.636 Yeah, the answer is yes, And we're just kind of 0:39:52.636 --> 0:39:55.596 slotted into our production schedule. And again, we don't want 0:39:55.596 --> 0:39:57.116 to have stock outs, right, That's the last thing you 0:39:57.116 --> 0:39:59.316 want when you're introducing the new product, somebody shows up. 0:39:59.316 --> 0:40:00.756 They went out of the way to try this product, 0:40:00.756 --> 0:40:02.796 and it's like, sorry, we don't have it this day. 0:40:02.796 --> 0:40:04.196 We didn't get our shipment yesterday. 0:40:04.916 --> 0:40:08.196 And then how much bigger can you get with your 0:40:08.276 --> 0:40:10.956 current production facility. 0:40:11.316 --> 0:40:13.636 If everything is maxed out and we tack on a 0:40:13.676 --> 0:40:16.756 little bit more capacity, which we can do. You know, 0:40:16.796 --> 0:40:19.756 we can maybe get up to like fifty restaurants. 0:40:19.996 --> 0:40:22.196 And then you have this step function where you need 0:40:22.196 --> 0:40:27.916 to get alone essentially to build a real industrial scale plant. 0:40:28.236 --> 0:40:31.156 This is the ram question, Like fifty restaurants is great, 0:40:31.196 --> 0:40:33.516 but it's not at all what you're going for. It's 0:40:33.556 --> 0:40:35.356 like what does the magnitude from what you're going for? 0:40:35.436 --> 0:40:36.676 So how do you keep going from there? 0:40:37.276 --> 0:40:40.716 So what I was describing is one path where we 0:40:40.796 --> 0:40:42.516 just build our own facility. We do what we did, 0:40:42.556 --> 0:40:44.316 but just bigger, and we've got to get that finance. 0:40:44.356 --> 0:40:46.716 That's really hard, it's not a lot of appetite. There 0:40:46.716 --> 0:40:49.476 are two other ways you can do this. One is 0:40:49.876 --> 0:40:53.956 we can go to a contract manufacturer that makes cells 0:40:54.036 --> 0:40:56.996 or fermented products and has spare capacity. So instead of 0:40:56.996 --> 0:41:00.596 building it ourselves, huh, we just pay them a toll 0:41:01.476 --> 0:41:04.396 and they make it for us, the cells or even 0:41:04.396 --> 0:41:07.916 the finished product, and then we can expand our capacity. 0:41:08.116 --> 0:41:10.556 And so that is not so capital intensive. You don't 0:41:10.596 --> 0:41:13.316 have to have any huge upfront costs that you need 0:41:13.316 --> 0:41:14.156 to take out a loan for. 0:41:14.316 --> 0:41:17.516 That's right, But it is slow and you can't innovate. 0:41:17.556 --> 0:41:20.356 So if you're working with contract manufacturers, it's like pencils down. 0:41:20.476 --> 0:41:23.116 Uh huh. This is the recipe, that's it. Yeah. 0:41:23.196 --> 0:41:25.596 Yeah, And the reality is we're still learning, we're still 0:41:25.596 --> 0:41:28.036 adjusting and going fast, which is why we haven't taken 0:41:28.076 --> 0:41:31.036 that path today, but we might. The other option is, 0:41:31.316 --> 0:41:34.156 and we're open to this, is there are companies that 0:41:34.196 --> 0:41:36.636 can build facilities that have lots of cash and a 0:41:36.756 --> 0:41:40.236 much lower cost capital than we do, and we'd be 0:41:40.276 --> 0:41:43.556 happy to license our technology to them. Right, And so 0:41:43.916 --> 0:41:46.076 that means the cell line and the feed and the 0:41:46.196 --> 0:41:48.236 know how to make our products well. 0:41:48.276 --> 0:41:51.116 So like Cargil, the giant food company is actually an 0:41:51.156 --> 0:41:53.316 investor in your company, right, is that the kind of 0:41:53.396 --> 0:41:55.556 company I should be thinking of in this context? Yeah? 0:41:55.676 --> 0:41:58.676 Or giant seafood companies that are maxed out on their 0:41:58.716 --> 0:42:01.356 fish farms, like we would absolutely be happy to partner 0:42:01.396 --> 0:42:01.596 with them. 0:42:01.676 --> 0:42:03.676 Uh huh. That makes a lot of sense. 0:42:04.036 --> 0:42:06.516 That the reality is we're trying to do a lot 0:42:06.516 --> 0:42:10.276 of things at a little seventy some odd person company. 0:42:10.476 --> 0:42:12.916 We can't do it all, and I think we just 0:42:12.916 --> 0:42:14.796 try to be really clear out about that, and when 0:42:14.836 --> 0:42:18.196 it comes to scaling and maximizing the impact and getting 0:42:18.196 --> 0:42:20.236 this product in front of as many people as possible, 0:42:20.876 --> 0:42:22.836 we try to be really open minded about the best 0:42:22.836 --> 0:42:23.356 way to do that. 0:42:24.596 --> 0:42:26.276 Do you think you're going to try and make something 0:42:26.396 --> 0:42:27.236 after salmon? 0:42:28.156 --> 0:42:32.556 Yes, eventually we will, I think. But the companies that 0:42:32.756 --> 0:42:34.916 really focused on doing one thing and one thing really 0:42:34.956 --> 0:42:36.716 well tended to do better. 0:42:38.356 --> 0:42:40.596 Who are you thinking of the impossible burger? 0:42:40.676 --> 0:42:42.916 Right? They weren't trying to do like chicken shreds and 0:42:42.916 --> 0:42:45.596 the nugget and sausage like all at once. They're like, 0:42:46.076 --> 0:42:48.156 let's make a kick ass burger that tastes pretty good. 0:42:48.156 --> 0:42:50.996 It's made from plants. And they did it, and I 0:42:51.156 --> 0:42:53.316 like that product. They eat it a lot. No, it's 0:42:53.356 --> 0:42:54.876 not for everybody, but a lot of people do it. 0:42:54.916 --> 0:42:57.276 No, our freezer is full of many impossible meats. 0:42:57.556 --> 0:43:00.316 Hopefully that means you're not stockpilling, but you're actually eating them. 0:43:00.316 --> 0:43:03.836 From time to time, not out yet waiting for the apocalypse. 0:43:03.916 --> 0:43:06.596 We don't have the big giant basement freezer. I don't 0:43:06.596 --> 0:43:08.076 want that. It's just a regular freezer. 0:43:09.316 --> 0:43:11.156 But you know, they chose that path while a lot 0:43:11.156 --> 0:43:13.116 of others were like, let's just make like ten different 0:43:13.116 --> 0:43:15.436 things at once, right, And I think for us, focus 0:43:15.556 --> 0:43:18.316 is powerful, and so for now it's salmon. But if 0:43:18.356 --> 0:43:21.836 we start to get energy from potential customers like hey, 0:43:21.876 --> 0:43:24.996 can you make us a blue crab or can you 0:43:24.996 --> 0:43:27.116 make us lobsters scallop? Like, we would take that really 0:43:27.156 --> 0:43:29.716 seriously and we've got the right technological know how to 0:43:29.756 --> 0:43:29.996 do it. 0:43:33.676 --> 0:43:35.796 We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 0:43:49.196 --> 0:43:50.636 We're going to finish with the lightning round. 0:43:51.236 --> 0:43:51.636 Let's go. 0:43:52.276 --> 0:43:54.756 So you were in the US Foreign Service in Pakistan 0:43:54.876 --> 0:43:58.996 and Afghanistan. Correct, Yes, What is one surprising thing that 0:43:59.036 --> 0:43:59.716 happened to you there? 0:44:00.916 --> 0:44:05.476 I was as a guest of honor with the governor, 0:44:05.716 --> 0:44:09.316 served the head of a goat, and I had no 0:44:09.356 --> 0:44:10.476 idea what to do with it. 0:44:11.436 --> 0:44:13.556 Like they just put the w all head in front 0:44:13.596 --> 0:44:15.596 of you and said you're welcome. 0:44:16.076 --> 0:44:18.396 I wasn't sure if I was being hazed or honored 0:44:18.796 --> 0:44:19.196 or both. 0:44:19.356 --> 0:44:22.836 Huh, Well, did you watch the governor and follow his lead? 0:44:23.036 --> 0:44:24.276 No? Because it went to me. 0:44:24.436 --> 0:44:24.836 Oh. 0:44:24.876 --> 0:44:26.916 I felt very self conscious about that because you know, 0:44:26.956 --> 0:44:29.436 I was about twenty years younger than the governor. It 0:44:29.476 --> 0:44:31.996 certainly didn't feel like I should have. Sure, I represented 0:44:32.036 --> 0:44:35.596 the United States government, but I was also thirty years old. 0:44:36.116 --> 0:44:40.356 So is the governor of the province that you were in. Yeah, 0:44:40.396 --> 0:44:41.196 So what did you do? 0:44:41.756 --> 0:44:43.516 I did the best I could. I like keeled back 0:44:43.556 --> 0:44:46.196 at jowl and went for it. Didn't taste How was it? No? 0:44:46.276 --> 0:44:48.196 It wasn't good. There's some whiskers in there. 0:44:48.556 --> 0:44:50.156 This is this is. 0:44:50.156 --> 0:44:52.476 Not even saying like I think it might have been hazing, 0:44:52.556 --> 0:44:54.356 because there were plenty of other parts of that goat 0:44:54.356 --> 0:44:55.516 that were delicious. 0:44:56.036 --> 0:44:57.996 What's something you missed from that part of the world. 0:44:58.876 --> 0:45:02.516 I missed the food, and I miss the culture of hospitality, 0:45:02.876 --> 0:45:06.396 which I think, unfortunately kind of got lost. A guest 0:45:06.596 --> 0:45:10.276 is sacred to a lot of the push people, and 0:45:10.316 --> 0:45:13.316 there's nothing you essentially wouldn't do for a guest, even 0:45:13.396 --> 0:45:17.236 though he or she might be your putative enemy. 0:45:17.276 --> 0:45:20.116 How did you experience that in practice? What's an example 0:45:20.156 --> 0:45:22.156 of that? From your experience? 0:45:22.756 --> 0:45:26.556 There were people who I knew were active Taliban fighters 0:45:26.596 --> 0:45:28.556 who welcomed me into their home and introduced me to 0:45:28.636 --> 0:45:33.996 their relatives because that's what the customs demanded, even though 0:45:34.036 --> 0:45:37.276 you know, later that night they were probably laying IED's 0:45:37.596 --> 0:45:41.996 blown up my friends. So yeah, it was things like that. 0:45:42.716 --> 0:45:46.236 And by the way, it was not like duplicitous. They 0:45:46.276 --> 0:45:50.396 were genuinely trying to extend hospitality. 0:45:50.476 --> 0:45:51.196 Were you a spy? 0:45:51.756 --> 0:45:52.196 I was not. 0:45:54.116 --> 0:45:55.876 I mean, you would say that in any case. But 0:45:56.116 --> 0:45:58.516 I had to ask, what's one thing you've learned as 0:45:58.516 --> 0:46:01.356 a diplomat that is helpful to you running your company? 0:46:02.236 --> 0:46:03.556 Thinking before you speak? 0:46:04.756 --> 0:46:07.996 Very good answer. I'm still working on that one. 0:46:09.236 --> 0:46:10.316 You know. I didn't say anything. 0:46:10.996 --> 0:46:13.676 Yeah, just not speaking. I've learned just not speaking and 0:46:13.716 --> 0:46:16.676 not speaking is a great move, Like you don't have 0:46:16.716 --> 0:46:17.396 to respond. 0:46:17.596 --> 0:46:19.716 It turns out that's one of the most powerful things 0:46:19.796 --> 0:46:22.236 you can do as a parent when you're challenged. It's 0:46:22.316 --> 0:46:23.476 just not say anything. 0:46:23.996 --> 0:46:27.116 Yes, you weren't a scientist when you got into this business. 0:46:27.716 --> 0:46:31.116 What's one great thing, interesting thing, favorite thing that you've 0:46:31.196 --> 0:46:33.316 learned about cells in your work. 0:46:34.076 --> 0:46:42.996 Cells are the most miniaturized, incredibly powerful versions of us, 0:46:44.436 --> 0:46:47.236 and they have so much potential right. I think when 0:46:47.236 --> 0:46:49.876 we all go through biology classes we learn that cells 0:46:49.876 --> 0:46:53.756 are the building blocks of life, but like no shit, 0:46:53.916 --> 0:47:00.276 they actually are and see and seeing it, seeing it 0:47:00.476 --> 0:47:04.196 happen and assemble into things that become tissues and organs 0:47:04.276 --> 0:47:07.316 is incredible, incredible. 0:47:14.036 --> 0:47:17.676 Justin Kolbeck is the co founder and CEO of Wild Type. 0:47:18.476 --> 0:47:21.796 Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We 0:47:21.836 --> 0:47:25.556 are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 0:47:25.596 --> 0:47:29.396 show was produced by Trinamanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It 0:47:29.556 --> 0:47:33.556 was edited by Alexander Garreton and engineered by Sarah Bricguherrett. 0:47:33.796 --> 0:47:35.916 I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 0:47:35.996 --> 0:47:44.276 another episode of What's Your Problem.