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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Meat is expensive. It's costly, and it's costly in

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Speaker 1: a few different ways, on a few different dimensions. For

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Speaker 1: one thing, it just costs a lot to grow a

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Speaker 1: cow or to go out and catch a wild salmon. Also,

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Speaker 1: meat is costly for the environment. Cows are absurdly large

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Speaker 1: contributors to climate change and habitat loss. Wildfish stocks are declining.

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Speaker 1: Fish farming is associated with pollution. Also, a lot of

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Speaker 1: what farmfish are fed is wildfish, which in turn adds

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Speaker 1: to the decline in wildfish stocks. As a result of

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Speaker 1: all this, people are trying to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: make food that is like meat but does not require

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Speaker 1: growing and killing animals. Plant based fake meat has been

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Speaker 1: around for a while impossible beyond, but I would argue

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Speaker 1: that a limiting factor is right there in the name plant.

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Speaker 1: There is another strategy, a strategy that is technically harder,

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Speaker 1: that's not as far along, but that in the long

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Speaker 1: run might be more promising, growing meat from animal cells

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Speaker 1: without ever growing the animal. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this

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Speaker 1: is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to

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Speaker 1: people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Justin Kolbeck, Justin is the co founder and

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Speaker 1: CEO of a company called wild Type. Earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: wild Type started selling what they call cultivated salmon at

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Speaker 1: a few restaurants around the country. The key ingredient in

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Speaker 1: cultivated salmon is cells that originally came from a real salmon,

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Speaker 1: but are grown in a metal vat, kind of like

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Speaker 1: the way you brew beer. Justin's problem is this, how

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Speaker 1: do you grow salmon cells in a vat, turn them

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Speaker 1: into something that looks and tastes like salmon, and sell

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Speaker 1: that for the same price as wild caught salmon. Justin

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Speaker 1: started off by telling me about this thing that happened

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Speaker 1: about a decade ago. He was visiting his friend Aria

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Speaker 1: Elfinbine at Aria's lab in San Francisco. Aria is a

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Speaker 1: cardiologist and he was growing heart muscle cells in his lab.

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Speaker 2: What was really interesting about that visit is Ari and

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Speaker 2: I were both having a conversation about what's the best

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Speaker 2: way to make food. Should we think about a plant

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Speaker 2: based approach or should we use cells? And it was

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Speaker 2: an active debate because at the time, Impossible Food it

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Speaker 2: was rolling out at Momofuku in New York. There were

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Speaker 2: lines around the block. People were really excited about what

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Speaker 2: plants could do, and he showed me under the microscope

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Speaker 2: a dish with beating human cardiomyocytes. So these are human

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Speaker 2: heart muscle cells, and at the cellular level they have

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Speaker 2: a pacemaking ability, so they beat just like our heart does.

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Speaker 1: Each cell sort of regulates itself.

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Speaker 2: To be the cell. Yeah, like this is way before

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Speaker 2: it becomes the full organ. This is just like the

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Speaker 2: most basic building block of the human heart. And that

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Speaker 2: was a hugely impactful moment for me, because you know,

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Speaker 2: Ari had kind of always told me, hey, cells know

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Speaker 2: what to do all the way down to the most

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Speaker 2: basic level. They are programmed to become the building blocks

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Speaker 2: of our of our various parts of our body. But

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Speaker 2: seeing it beat was really an incredible moment for me, right,

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Speaker 2: And also it made the feet of turning cells into meat.

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Speaker 2: Sorry that that rhymed a bit I didn't intend it to,

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Speaker 2: did it seem a little bit more doable, quite honestly, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: here are these scientists that are growing functional human beating

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Speaker 2: heart cells for therapeutic purposes. Making a non functional piece

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Speaker 2: of meat just for human consumption seemed not trivial by comparison,

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Speaker 2: but a bit easier like, if.

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Speaker 1: You could literally grow human heart self that beat on

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Speaker 1: their own in the lab, surely we could make just

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Speaker 1: a slab of dead salmon for people to eat.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And you know, and I wouldn't say that

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Speaker 2: all of my doubts went away in that moment, but

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Speaker 2: I did get it. I understood the sort of power

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Speaker 2: of what this technology could do.

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Speaker 1: So you were already by this time thinking about food,

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Speaker 1: and in particular thinking about alternatives to traditional meat. Like

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Speaker 1: why why were you too thinking about that at that time?

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Speaker 2: I think we came at this from slightly different angles.

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Speaker 2: Ari and I. So my most recent overseas assignment as

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Speaker 2: a foreign service officer was in a place called Paktika, Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: At the time I was there, which was two thousand

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Speaker 2: and oh, boy, ten to eleven, it's a long time

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Speaker 2: ago now, Afghanistan was the third most food and secure

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Speaker 2: country in the world, and the place where I was,

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Speaker 2: which was on the eastern part of the country right

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Speaker 2: on the border with Pakistan, was one of the most

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Speaker 2: food and secure provinces in that incredibly food and secure country,

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Speaker 2: and I saw people do incredible things to feed their families.

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Speaker 2: It was non inconsequential part of why a lot of

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Speaker 2: people signed up to become members of the Talban quite honestly,

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Speaker 2: to get a paycheck and essentially be able to feed

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Speaker 2: their family. I came home from that assignment thinking a

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Speaker 2: lot about food security, and so when Aria started talking

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Speaker 2: to me about the power of this technology, I got

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Speaker 2: really excited because it was at least part of an

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Speaker 2: answer to a question that had been tumbling around in

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Speaker 2: my head, which was where's all the food going to

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Speaker 2: come from for the next three billion people that are

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Speaker 2: going to show up on planet Earth? And by the way,

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Speaker 2: they all want to eat more like us here in

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Speaker 2: North America, So a lot of meat, a lot of dairy,

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Speaker 2: a lot of seafood. And it seemed like a very compelling, interesting,

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Speaker 2: partial solution to that.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, so you have this in your mind, you

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Speaker 1: see the beating heart cells through a microscope, right, and

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Speaker 1: then what like, how do you get from there to

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Speaker 1: deciding to start a company to make salmon out of cells?

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Speaker 2: So the first thing that I needed to get over

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Speaker 2: internally was does as technology have promised? And it was

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Speaker 2: clear to me that it did. The second thing was, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: can we actually do it? And can we make enough

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Speaker 2: cells to cook something up and put it in our

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Speaker 2: mouths and chew it. And so that's what we did.

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Speaker 2: And so at the end of twenty sixteen we started

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Speaker 2: talking to potential for lack of a better word, rent

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Speaker 2: a bench locations on the West Coast. We ended up

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Speaker 2: at this great place that at the time was called

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Speaker 2: QB three. Now it's called NBC Biolabs in San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: They have a few of them now. But what was

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Speaker 2: incredible at the time is you could rent for I

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Speaker 2: think the price was eight hundred and fifty bucks a month.

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Speaker 2: You could have dedicated bench space. It wasn't much. It

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Speaker 2: was like the size of the dust that I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: at now.

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Speaker 1: But is it just full of mad scientists with weird

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Speaker 1: o dreams cooking things up? What's going on in there? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And other than us and one other person who was

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Speaker 2: also working on some food applications, everybody was working on biotech,

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Speaker 2: healthcare type of stuff, right. And the advantage of this

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Speaker 2: place is at the time Ri n I still had

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Speaker 2: full time jobs and we were funding this from our

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Speaker 2: savings and from our salaries, so it didn't cost a

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Speaker 2: lot to get up and running. We had access to

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Speaker 2: like millions of dollars of state of the art equipment

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Speaker 2: that we could rent. And so, you know, we spent

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Speaker 2: the first part of twenty seventeen trying to find some

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Speaker 2: animals that we could isolate sales from, right and that

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Speaker 2: included you know, obviously fish, which we ended up working on,

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Speaker 2: but also some chicken. In the early days, it was

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Speaker 2: just a little bit easier to get a hold of

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Speaker 2: fertilized eggs, for example, which are full of the kinds

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Speaker 2: of sales that you need for starting a selling the

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Speaker 2: purposes that we need them for, you know. And I

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Speaker 2: remember when we grew our first real full dish of

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Speaker 2: chicken muscle cells. It was before we you know, at

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Speaker 2: the time, we were like literally going fishing to like

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Speaker 2: find a fish, and you know it's called fishing and

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Speaker 2: not catching. So you know, we went fishing a few

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Speaker 2: times and we weren't able to get any fish. We

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Speaker 2: were like down there in the San Francisco docks talking

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Speaker 2: to fishermen and being like, hey, I know you just

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Speaker 2: caught this fish. Can you cut us off a little

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Speaker 2: bit so we can see if we can find some

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Speaker 2: life cells. But while we were doing that, because we

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Speaker 2: always and we can talk more about this. We always

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Speaker 2: saw seafood is like the real place we needed to focus.

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Speaker 2: We were working on in parallel some of these kind

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Speaker 2: of poultry cell lines, and the first big aha moment

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Speaker 2: for me was, you know, we got in a very

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Speaker 2: small format, you know, just like your simple dish. We

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Speaker 2: got chicken muscle cells to grow and then and I

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Speaker 2: had this video still to this day of them like

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Speaker 2: kind of spontaneously contracting like our muscles, still, right, And

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Speaker 2: just like our muscles, if you give them the right

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Speaker 2: kind of environment, you can get them to grow and

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Speaker 2: to be bigger and all of that. And so eventually

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Speaker 2: we did find a place where we could reliably get

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Speaker 2: like fish cells because, as you might imagine, you didn't

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Speaker 2: come upon the ideal cell line the first time around.

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Speaker 2: That's not how science works typically. It took us a while,

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Speaker 2: and it was actually a fish that Aria dissected on

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Speaker 2: Christmas Eve of twenty eighteen that became the starter yeast

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Speaker 2: effectively for the cells that were that were making and

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Speaker 2: putting into products today.

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Speaker 1: It was a salmon.

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Speaker 2: It was a little salmon, a little salmon.

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Speaker 1: So why did you choose? You said, you always knew

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Speaker 1: you were going to do seafood, Like, why did you

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Speaker 1: choose seafood, Why did you choose salmon?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, there are a couple of reasons. One, we

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Speaker 2: wanted to focus on a big potential price, not just

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Speaker 2: price like in the monetary sense, but a place to

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Speaker 2: have a really big impact. And seafood is our species,

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Speaker 2: the human species number one source of animal protein, you know,

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Speaker 2: not driven by us here in North America, but largely

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Speaker 2: by other countries around the world. And so that was

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Speaker 2: one consideration and the other onse and Ari and I

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Speaker 2: felt pretty strongly about this. In the early days, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people were really getting interested in the plant

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Speaker 2: based movement. You know, there were certainly those who cared

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Speaker 2: about it from like a sustainability perspective, but I think

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of people that were just like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: I can have a burger and it's going to have

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Speaker 2: like lower saturated fat, and maybe this is healthier for

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Speaker 2: me than a beef broger. Right, And for seafood, there

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Speaker 2: was a really clear reason for people to switch, which

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Speaker 2: is nobody likes to find a parasite or a worm

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Speaker 2: in their sushi, and it is absolutely ubiquitous. Nobody likes

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Speaker 2: the heavy metals that are present in fish. I think

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Speaker 2: seafood is just this really complex thing where you like

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Speaker 2: ask people like, hey, what's better farm fish or wild caught?

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Speaker 2: You'll get all kinds of different answers, and you know,

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Speaker 2: some of them may or may not be based on

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Speaker 2: any kind of factual base. But it's complicated, right, And

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Speaker 2: so the idea was like, let's just remove all of

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Speaker 2: that complication and just make the purest, cleanest seafoot on

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Speaker 2: the planet. And that was kind of our north star

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Speaker 2: for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it's late twenty eighteen. You get your first

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Speaker 1: cells out of the original salmon that is the father

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Speaker 1: or mother of everything else, right, So let's just step

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Speaker 1: back at that moment and talk about the context of

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Speaker 1: this broader technology of working with cells. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: is the thing people had been working on for some time, right,

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Speaker 1: both in a medical context and in a like can

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Speaker 1: we grow meat from sales context? What was the existing

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Speaker 1: arc on the food side of people trying to grow

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Speaker 1: meat from cells at the time you started.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, the very first demonstration of this technology was a

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Speaker 2: NASA funded project by a researcher I believe in New

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Speaker 2: Jersey whose name was Morris Benjaminson. And he grew goldfish

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Speaker 2: cells outside of the goldfish as a proof point that,

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Speaker 2: you know, because the basic question they were trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out is, Okay, we've got astronauts on long distance

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Speaker 2: space missions, or maybe we're colonizing Mars one day. We're

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Speaker 2: sure as hell not grazing cows on Mars. It's just

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Speaker 2: not going to be a thing. So and you know,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to be able to ship up on

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Speaker 2: rockets huge amounts of heavy meat for people to eat, right,

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Speaker 2: So what are we going to do?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And I think that was the original impetus for exploring

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Speaker 2: this kind of technology is can we just make me

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Speaker 2: essentially on a spaceship that's traveling through space? And that's

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Speaker 2: what this researcher did, and he proved that it could work.

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Speaker 1: And when was that just more or less decade nineties

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Speaker 1: or nineties?

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Speaker 2: Ok, yeah, yeah, so it's a while ago. Then a

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Speaker 2: French artist demonstration where he grew some frog muscle cells

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Speaker 2: that he had sort of isolated from a living frog

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Speaker 2: and fed them to some people as like an art demonstration.

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Speaker 1: Somehow very French.

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Speaker 2: They must have been smoking, right, I would imagine it

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Speaker 2: was like a you know, dark cafe somewhere on the

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Speaker 2: chamis Luise. Well this I don't know, but the people

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Speaker 2: watched the frog was alive kind of while people were

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Speaker 2: eating its cells. Essentially.

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Speaker 1: Oh I see, So it didn't harm the frog. They

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Speaker 1: whatever scraped them cells off the frog and didn't have

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Speaker 1: to eat the frog. Yeah, exactly, something sort of like

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Speaker 1: frog legs without eating that frog's legs or any frog's legs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But what I loved about this is it wasn't

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Speaker 2: like a scientist or biologist. It was just an artist

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Speaker 2: who saw a chance to create this like absurd setting

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Speaker 2: and just see what happens and document it. And then

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Speaker 2: I would say for applications for like more serious applications

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Speaker 2: toward food started with a Dutch researcher named Mark Post

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Speaker 2: who made the first cultivated hamburger about a decade ago

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Speaker 2: and then ate it on live British TV.

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Speaker 1: So that had happened, so people could do it, but

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Speaker 1: nobody was doing it at scale or in any kind

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Speaker 1: of economic way. So what do you have to do? Like,

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Speaker 1: what are a few of the things you had to

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Speaker 1: figure out?

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Speaker 2: I think a good starting point for that question is

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Speaker 2: how did Mark Post make his burger? And how much

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Speaker 2: did it cost? So that burger costs well over three

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars to make, just to put it into perspective.

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Speaker 2: And the way he grew it was in these things

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Speaker 2: called cell factories, which are layered large imagine like a

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Speaker 2: big plastic circulture dish, but like the size of a desk,

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Speaker 2: and it's like ten stories tall, right, And he had

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Speaker 2: stacks of these. I've seen pictures of it, just piled

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Speaker 2: up in his lab where they made this initial prototype.

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Speaker 2: So the first step was like, okay, well that's not

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Speaker 2: going to work. If we're trying to take plastics out

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Speaker 2: of fish, we better not be growing it. And he's

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Speaker 2: just plastic cell hotels, right, not to mention that doesn't scale.

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Speaker 1: So the easier move would have been grow the cell

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Speaker 1: so that they're sticking to a plastic box. But you

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Speaker 1: were you didn't want plastic in the fish, so you

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Speaker 1: couldn't do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So look, most cell culture is done in stainless

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Speaker 2: steel fermentation tanks that don't look all that different from

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Speaker 2: a brew tank.

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Speaker 1: So that seems fine, right, Fine, use a metal tank

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Speaker 1: instead of a plastic tank. But get well, let's see

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Speaker 1: three hundred thousand you need to basically get it to

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Speaker 1: three dollars, which is how many orders of magnitude? Right

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Speaker 1: a lot thirty three hundred, three thousand and thirty thousand,

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Speaker 1: five orders of magnitude. You have to get five orders

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Speaker 1: of magnitude out right. That seems like the big job.

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Speaker 1: Also make salmine, which nobody has done. But frankly, it's

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Speaker 1: the five orders of magnitude part that seems really hard

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 2: So here's how we did it, and it was it

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Speaker 2: was really three things. One it was to start with

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Speaker 2: the right cells, right, like I was talking about, So

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Speaker 2: train the ones they can grow in a beer brewery

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Speaker 2: instead of these cell hotels.

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Speaker 1: And is that just a matter of choosing the right

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Speaker 1: kind of cell? Is it just trial and error that

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Speaker 1: one didn't work, that one didn't work, Oh, that one worked.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it was thousands of experiments literally, oh wow, over

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Speaker 2: two years to get the right type of cell.

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Speaker 1: Just different cell kinds to find one that would reproduce

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Speaker 1: in a in essentially a beer brewing vat.

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Speaker 2: That's right, different types of salmon. So we used Atlantic

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Speaker 2: and within Pacific, we use coho and chinook and just

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Speaker 2: all these other kinds just to try to change as

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Speaker 2: many of the variables as we could, but we got

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Speaker 2: there in the end. The second thing was it.

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Speaker 1: Was Coho, right, the one that worked was Coho.

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Speaker 2: Is what won the contest.

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Speaker 1: The second thing.

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Speaker 2: Second thing was what we feed the cells. So in

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Speaker 2: pharma cell culture, it's not uncommon for a leader of

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Speaker 2: cel feed to cost hundreds of dollars and in fact,

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Speaker 2: that's literally what ours cost when we started.

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Speaker 1: A leader to cost hundreds of dollars. That's right.

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Speaker 2: And you know, just to zoom forward in time a bit,

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Speaker 2: we're at like three thousand liters scale now, so it's

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Speaker 2: just not tenable and so and by the way, that

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Speaker 2: feed has a lot of animal components in it, which

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Speaker 2: again defeats the purpose. Like if we're growing cells outside

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Speaker 2: of an animal, let's not grow it in another animal ingredients.

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Speaker 2: So then we had to put the cells on a

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Speaker 2: plant based diet and reduce the cost like crazy, right,

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Speaker 2: and just to give you sent So we went from

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Speaker 2: hundreds of dollars a lead to like about a buck

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Speaker 2: a liter.

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Speaker 1: Now, okay, and how much meat do you get out

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Speaker 1: of a leader of feed? I guess that is that

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Speaker 1: another optimization problem?

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Speaker 2: It is, that's right, Yeah, yeah, and I'll put that

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Speaker 2: as a subset of the cost of the feed. But

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Speaker 2: while we were reducing the richness of the feed, essentially,

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Speaker 2: we were also selecting for cells that could grow in

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Speaker 2: a very healthy way at higher densities. So we can

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Speaker 2: get let's say, instead of a gram a leader, we

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Speaker 2: can get ten grams a lead, or twenty grams a leader,

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Speaker 2: or one hundred grams a leader, right somewhere in that range,

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Speaker 2: like where we're ten or one hundred x. Ying with

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Speaker 2: some of these efficiencies would be The third thing that

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Speaker 2: we had to do was to scale all this up,

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Speaker 2: so move it into larger and larger cultivation centers essentially.

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Speaker 2: So that was definitely not trivial, and that was more

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Speaker 2: less of a biology thing, more of an engineering thing,

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Speaker 2: like how do we keep the thing sterile? How do

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Speaker 2: we ensure that we're keeping the cells happy? Like nobody

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Speaker 2: had ever studied three D fish cell culture before to

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Speaker 2: the point where like we were, like, what temperature should

350
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Speaker 2: we grow the mat Almost all cells that are grown

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Speaker 2: for therapeutic use are grown at our body temperature, right

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Speaker 2: thirty seven celsius, never ninety eight point seven fahrenheit.

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Speaker 1: What's the body temperature? Of a salmon.

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Speaker 2: It's cold there, cold.

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Speaker 1: Was what whatever? The water is?

356
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and they have a range that they can tolerate.

357
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Speaker 2: It's pretty broad actually, which is why this was an

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Speaker 2: interesting question. And so yeah, that was a big process.

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Speaker 2: But once we got it, I would say, into our

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Speaker 2: first stainless steel tank, it got a lot easier.

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Speaker 1: How does that work? By the way, so you start

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Speaker 1: with a cell, how do you get from a cell

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Speaker 1: to a piece of salmon that I can eat?

364
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So what we do is, you know, for now,

365
00:19:23,876 --> 00:19:26,076
Speaker 2: we're growing cells. Like I said, kind of the maxi

366
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Speaker 2: bawling that we're at is three thousand liters, which, again,

367
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Speaker 2: if you've been to a microbrewery and you like kind

368
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Speaker 2: of peer at all those big stanless steel tanks or whatever,

369
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Speaker 2: twenty feet tall, looks like that one of those.

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Speaker 1: One of those okay, yep, and what's going on in there?

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Speaker 2: So we've got a it's not not that complicated. So

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Speaker 2: we've got a little propeller like a literally we could

373
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Speaker 2: have like strapped one on from a boat. It circulates

374
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Speaker 2: oxygen in the in the tank. We control the pH

375
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Speaker 2: we can control the temperature. We make sure that the

376
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Speaker 2: oxygen in there is sufficient. But we're literally just stirring

377
00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:00,916
Speaker 2: cells in their feed for ten days, ten to ten

378
00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:06,476
Speaker 2: to fifteen days. At that point, we centrifuge or you know,

379
00:20:06,556 --> 00:20:10,116
Speaker 2: just spin at high speeds, remove the sel feed, We

380
00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:13,196
Speaker 2: wash it a few times, we concentrate it kind of

381
00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:15,676
Speaker 2: into pure salmon protein essentially.

382
00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:18,836
Speaker 1: So what you have first is a lump of salmon

383
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Speaker 1: cells essentially, shapeless, shapeless, just like a goo. It's like

384
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Speaker 1: a goo. Is it a orange? Dumb question? Is it orange?

385
00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:31,556
Speaker 2: It's not orange. It looks like kind of the white

386
00:20:31,596 --> 00:20:34,716
Speaker 2: part of the salmon, you know, like connective tissue part.

387
00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:38,516
Speaker 2: And yeah, So what we do is we then combine

388
00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:42,956
Speaker 2: that with some plant based ingredients, mix it, shape it.

389
00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,436
Speaker 2: We actually have a heating step to make sure that

390
00:20:45,436 --> 00:20:47,396
Speaker 2: we're killing off any microbes that might have found their way.

391
00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:49,356
Speaker 2: Because it's all ready to eat sushi product. We want

392
00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:53,276
Speaker 2: to make sure it's as safe as possible and slice it,

393
00:20:53,316 --> 00:20:55,316
Speaker 2: package it, X ray it, and send it out the door.

394
00:20:55,836 --> 00:20:59,996
Speaker 1: So you work on this for many years and then

395
00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:08,116
Speaker 1: this year, it's this spring you got something from the

396
00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:11,316
Speaker 1: FDA that is called a no questions letter, So that

397
00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:14,716
Speaker 1: basically mean FDA approval. What does that mean what happened

398
00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:15,676
Speaker 1: with the FDA this year.

399
00:21:16,356 --> 00:21:20,636
Speaker 2: So there's a process on the food side, and this

400
00:21:20,756 --> 00:21:22,636
Speaker 2: was a process that was done for our industry, it's

401
00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:26,076
Speaker 2: done for other types of food. You submit a safety dossier,

402
00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:29,156
Speaker 2: that's what it's called, so a summary of how a

403
00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:31,996
Speaker 2: producing company came to the conclusion that a new food

404
00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:35,636
Speaker 2: manufacturing technology, which is what we're doing, so familiar food,

405
00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:40,036
Speaker 2: new technology or a new food is safe. Right, And

406
00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:43,436
Speaker 2: so you compile this dossier with lots of supporting data.

407
00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:47,556
Speaker 2: And what that did is it then kicked off a

408
00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,116
Speaker 2: three year process of back and forth questions with the FDA.

409
00:21:50,396 --> 00:21:52,916
Speaker 1: It should be called a no more Questions letter.

410
00:21:52,996 --> 00:21:55,676
Speaker 2: That's right, That's exactly what it is. Right, So once

411
00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:58,996
Speaker 2: the questions have been satisfied, they don't have any further questions.

412
00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:01,876
Speaker 2: And you know, they issued a statement that essentially said,

413
00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:05,116
Speaker 2: we agree with wild types of conclusion that the food

414
00:22:05,396 --> 00:22:09,636
Speaker 2: made using this technology is no more, no less, and

415
00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:11,916
Speaker 2: food isolated from a conventional fish.

416
00:22:12,436 --> 00:22:12,636
Speaker 1: Right.

417
00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:16,116
Speaker 2: That's what we were working toward, is some degree of

418
00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:20,716
Speaker 2: external validation that this new and somewhat crazy sounding technology

419
00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:23,796
Speaker 2: can produce food that's very, very safe. And indeed, like

420
00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:26,676
Speaker 2: we talked about a bit earlier, quite a bit safer uncertain.

421
00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:33,076
Speaker 1: Respects specifically, metal content and parasite or pathogen content.

422
00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:36,956
Speaker 2: Are those the two exactly? Yeah? So lysteria, for example,

423
00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:40,076
Speaker 2: is a big challenge with any kind of fish, right,

424
00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:42,756
Speaker 2: and because of the way that we produce our food,

425
00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:47,396
Speaker 2: we're significantly able to reduce that risk. Not to mention,

426
00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:52,436
Speaker 2: heavy metals are in some cases orders of magnitude lower

427
00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:55,356
Speaker 2: than what you'd find in conventional fish. Parasites cannot grow

428
00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:58,396
Speaker 2: in our environment. So if you want to guarantee that

429
00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:01,716
Speaker 2: there's no worm or parasite in your fish, like wild type,

430
00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:04,276
Speaker 2: sim is literally the only optional planet Earth that can

431
00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:08,476
Speaker 2: meet that. And we don't use antibiotics, so, which are

432
00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:10,836
Speaker 2: still fairly prevalent and a lot of fish farming today.

433
00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:13,276
Speaker 1: So what's your cost? Now? What have you gotten your cost?

434
00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:15,836
Speaker 2: Down to the way that we like to think about

435
00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:18,476
Speaker 2: it is if we were at scale, what would our

436
00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:21,596
Speaker 2: actual marginal cost be, right based on the inputs that

437
00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:25,116
Speaker 2: we're using, And today those inputs are about ten bucks

438
00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:25,476
Speaker 2: a pound.

439
00:23:26,276 --> 00:23:29,276
Speaker 1: So when you say at scale, how much bigger is that?

440
00:23:29,676 --> 00:23:32,276
Speaker 1: How much bigger do you have to be? Like, I

441
00:23:32,276 --> 00:23:33,796
Speaker 1: don't know how much more fish do you have to make.

442
00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:35,156
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know the right way to

443
00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:35,716
Speaker 1: ask that question.

444
00:23:35,876 --> 00:23:37,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, get I get your question. So

445
00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:41,916
Speaker 2: the best way to think about this is, you know,

446
00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:44,396
Speaker 2: we are at micro brewery scale.

447
00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:46,396
Speaker 1: Now, how much fish do you make it a week?

448
00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:50,156
Speaker 2: We make whatever, a few hundred pounds a week, right,

449
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:53,436
Speaker 2: So it's not it's not enough. It's not enough.

450
00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,036
Speaker 1: No, it's not enough. When you say ten dollars a pound,

451
00:23:56,116 --> 00:23:57,836
Speaker 1: how many pounds of fish you got to be making

452
00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:01,076
Speaker 1: a week for it to have your cost be ten

453
00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:02,116
Speaker 1: dollars a pound, it's more.

454
00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:04,276
Speaker 2: Like one thousand pounds a week. Is where we need

455
00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:04,476
Speaker 2: to be.

456
00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:06,156
Speaker 1: That's not crazy, that's not crazy.

457
00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:09,476
Speaker 2: It's not And the reason our costs are so highs

458
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:11,636
Speaker 2: because our volumes are low. You know, we just launched

459
00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:12,196
Speaker 2: a quarter ago.

460
00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:12,956
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

461
00:24:12,996 --> 00:24:14,636
Speaker 2: Rent is expensive in San Francisco.

462
00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:17,756
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, we started with a three hundred thousand dollars hamburger.

463
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:18,956
Speaker 1: You're most of the way there.

464
00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 2: I think so. But but you know, the last bit

465
00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:23,436
Speaker 2: of the way is tough. And the reason it's tough

466
00:24:23,516 --> 00:24:28,876
Speaker 2: is because there's not a lot of interest I would say,

467
00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:33,796
Speaker 2: among either banks or project financers to put money into

468
00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,476
Speaker 2: capital intensive projects today, huh, and the path for us

469
00:24:37,516 --> 00:24:39,356
Speaker 2: And you know, again this should not be surprising. And

470
00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:41,996
Speaker 2: that's why I'm kind of using the micro brewery analogy.

471
00:24:42,116 --> 00:24:42,276
Speaker 1: Right.

472
00:24:42,316 --> 00:24:45,996
Speaker 2: A lot of microbreweries at their scale are not super profitable.

473
00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:47,116
Speaker 2: In fact, a lot of them have gone out of

474
00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:49,396
Speaker 2: business in the last five years. There is kind of

475
00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:53,876
Speaker 2: a minimum efficient scale problem with what we're doing and

476
00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:55,076
Speaker 2: what a lot of other industries doing.

477
00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:58,036
Speaker 1: So your problem at this moment is finance getting You've

478
00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:01,316
Speaker 1: had this sort of venture financing. Was that one hundred

479
00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:03,116
Speaker 1: million dollars that you raised to iver call that? Is

480
00:25:03,156 --> 00:25:03,876
Speaker 1: that the correct number?

481
00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:05,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, about one hundred and thirty million total.

482
00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:08,396
Speaker 1: So now you have a sort of more capital intensive

483
00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:10,316
Speaker 1: that was like you get your IP lined up, you

484
00:25:11,036 --> 00:25:13,316
Speaker 1: develop your product, and now you have this more sort

485
00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,636
Speaker 1: of classic financing problem where you need is not equity finance,

486
00:25:17,676 --> 00:25:20,596
Speaker 1: but like alone to build a bigger production plant. And

487
00:25:20,636 --> 00:25:21,876
Speaker 1: that's hard to get exactly.

488
00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:24,196
Speaker 2: It's it's really hard to get in twenty twenty five.

489
00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:26,596
Speaker 2: But that's what we need to do. And you know,

490
00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:29,156
Speaker 2: the thing is it's not really all that interesting or

491
00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:32,356
Speaker 2: sexy at this point because it's not proving out brand

492
00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,316
Speaker 2: new science it's just building bigger facilities and spreading fixed

493
00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:36,676
Speaker 2: costs over bigger volumes.

494
00:25:37,316 --> 00:25:40,396
Speaker 1: There is a broader lab grown meat. It's not really

495
00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:42,596
Speaker 1: an industry yet, but there are a few other companies

496
00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:45,316
Speaker 1: that have what is it two other companies that have

497
00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 1: been approved to sell lab grown chicken in the US? Right?

498
00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:50,836
Speaker 1: How are they doing?

499
00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:50,996
Speaker 2: Like?

500
00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:55,596
Speaker 1: Is there some like more narrowly? Are they struggling with

501
00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:57,836
Speaker 1: the same thing you are? Is there a sense of like, oh,

502
00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:00,396
Speaker 1: maybe people don't want to buy lab grown meat, or

503
00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:01,276
Speaker 1: at least not yet.

504
00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:05,516
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I don't have the best information about.

505
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:07,356
Speaker 2: So the two other companies you're talking about are Upside

506
00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:12,556
Speaker 2: Foods and each just they're both but also in San Francisco.

507
00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:15,356
Speaker 2: Neither of them are selling their products and restaurants today,

508
00:26:15,356 --> 00:26:17,796
Speaker 2: though I can't really speak as to why that is.

509
00:26:17,876 --> 00:26:20,196
Speaker 1: It's more I'm selling in Singapore or something. It is

510
00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:21,076
Speaker 1: one of these things.

511
00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:23,996
Speaker 2: So there are two companies selling cultivated foods on planet

512
00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:27,516
Speaker 2: Earth today, okay. One is Wild Type, which is selling

513
00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:30,876
Speaker 2: salmon in four restaurants in four states today in the

514
00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:33,596
Speaker 2: United States. The other is a company called val which

515
00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:36,556
Speaker 2: is based in Australia and they make a cultivated quail

516
00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:40,756
Speaker 2: product that's available for people to try in Singapore and

517
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:44,476
Speaker 2: Australia today and that's it. So there's all this noise,

518
00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:47,436
Speaker 2: but what it boils down to is just a couple

519
00:26:47,436 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 2: of companies selling products in about say ten restaurants around

520
00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:54,556
Speaker 2: the world. We're at the starting line, I would.

521
00:26:54,316 --> 00:26:57,036
Speaker 1: Say, yeah, Like, why is it so small?

522
00:26:57,956 --> 00:27:00,916
Speaker 2: So first, there's a regulatory hurdle, which is really hard,

523
00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:03,276
Speaker 2: and as you said, you know, there's I think five

524
00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:06,316
Speaker 2: companies in the US that have cleared that hurdle. Then

525
00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:10,636
Speaker 2: there's the manufacturing side of things, right, So part of

526
00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:14,316
Speaker 2: the proceeds or use of proceeds for the amount of

527
00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:16,876
Speaker 2: money that we raised was to build this first of

528
00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:21,716
Speaker 2: its kind cultivated seafood facility in San Francisco. And it

529
00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:24,036
Speaker 2: wasn't a trivial amount of money, right that we spent

530
00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:27,916
Speaker 2: on that. And it's really hard to scale the stuff up. Yeah, so,

531
00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 2: and I think that's part of the reason why very

532
00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:34,756
Speaker 2: few companies have actually just made it over the regulatory,

533
00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:37,516
Speaker 2: the scaling, and the technical hurdles to get something into

534
00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:37,916
Speaker 2: the market.

535
00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:42,036
Speaker 1: Today, I'm less hopeful than I was when we started talking.

536
00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,076
Speaker 2: Can ask why please, Yeah.

537
00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:49,596
Speaker 1: Well maybe I I don't know why. It's just the vibe.

538
00:27:49,756 --> 00:27:51,236
Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know how you're going to

539
00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:52,916
Speaker 1: get that money. How are you going to get that money?

540
00:27:53,236 --> 00:28:00,076
Speaker 2: We'll figure it out. Look, I think no new industry,

541
00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,276
Speaker 2: no new technology, is easy. What we're trying to do

542
00:28:03,396 --> 00:28:05,836
Speaker 2: is ambitious and it's really freaking hard, and it is

543
00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:09,436
Speaker 2: not for the faint of heart, but it's important, right,

544
00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:13,516
Speaker 2: Like my six year old kids, I have twins, When

545
00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:15,916
Speaker 2: I hear them explain what my work is, they're like, hey,

546
00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:20,476
Speaker 2: my daddy grows fish, so we don't have to kill

547
00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:23,356
Speaker 2: the fish. Like they just get it and it's obvious.

548
00:28:23,476 --> 00:28:25,876
Speaker 2: Like I think most people when you ask them, like, hey,

549
00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:29,356
Speaker 2: what's the future of seafood, they're not going to tell you, Yeah,

550
00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:30,876
Speaker 2: let's just pull all the fish out and have no

551
00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:33,756
Speaker 2: more fish left in the sea. Like, there's this big

552
00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:35,996
Speaker 2: problem that a lot of companies are trying to solve

553
00:28:35,996 --> 00:28:37,916
Speaker 2: from a bunch of different angles. And you know, I

554
00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:40,796
Speaker 2: think it's important enough that it's going to get done,

555
00:28:40,836 --> 00:28:43,076
Speaker 2: and you know, one or two, maybe three companies will

556
00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:46,516
Speaker 2: get through this crunch. Right, But we're at a point

557
00:28:46,556 --> 00:28:48,716
Speaker 2: now as an industry where there were one hundred and

558
00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:50,676
Speaker 2: fifty I don't even know. I don't count them all,

559
00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:53,876
Speaker 2: but I've seen a number of cultivated food companies around

560
00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:56,476
Speaker 2: the world. Not all of those companies are going to

561
00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:59,876
Speaker 2: make it through. Maybe we won't. I am very helpful, however,

562
00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:04,716
Speaker 2: that we will, and very confident actually, because we're making

563
00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:10,156
Speaker 2: something that people want and that the planet needs for

564
00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:12,876
Speaker 2: us to continue to sustainably feed people's seafood. And so

565
00:29:13,716 --> 00:29:18,316
Speaker 2: that moment of doubt pessimism that you were feeling is

566
00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:21,676
Speaker 2: just kind of wired into mine and Aria's brain, right,

567
00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:23,596
Speaker 2: it comes and it goes. We've got down moments and

568
00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:26,476
Speaker 2: we've got high moments, and that's just kind of part

569
00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:28,436
Speaker 2: and parcel of doing something like this. It's hard.

570
00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:44,116
Speaker 3: We'll be back in just a minute.

571
00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:47,476
Speaker 1: Why do you feel so strongly that the world needs

572
00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:48,996
Speaker 1: cultivated salmon?

573
00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:53,196
Speaker 2: I would suggest talk to a fisherman, particularly one who's

574
00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:56,156
Speaker 2: been fishing for more than thirty years, about what they've

575
00:29:56,196 --> 00:29:59,916
Speaker 2: seen with wild stocks. But they're going down right. And

576
00:30:00,076 --> 00:30:03,516
Speaker 2: you know, if you look at any data measurement in

577
00:30:03,636 --> 00:30:06,676
Speaker 2: terms of the health of wildfish stocks around the world,

578
00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 2: it's not up and to the right. Many of them

579
00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:10,796
Speaker 2: are being fish at levels that are kind of pushing

580
00:30:10,796 --> 00:30:14,116
Speaker 2: them into endangered species. Right, if you listen or following

581
00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:18,116
Speaker 2: any of David Attenborough's work, any of his recent films,

582
00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:20,316
Speaker 2: I mean, he talks about the ocean. You know, there's

583
00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:23,676
Speaker 2: a real risk that will have an ocean full of

584
00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:27,036
Speaker 2: jellyfish in fifty years if we're not thoughtful.

585
00:30:26,676 --> 00:30:28,596
Speaker 1: And careful and nothing else.

586
00:30:28,756 --> 00:30:33,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, plastic and jellyfish, like yeah, and let's not forget

587
00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:36,716
Speaker 2: that our ocean store like ninety three or ninety four

588
00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 2: percent of the planet's carbon in the soil and the

589
00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:41,076
Speaker 2: seagrass and other things.

590
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:41,396
Speaker 1: Right.

591
00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:43,556
Speaker 2: So I don't know about you, but I get pretty

592
00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:46,236
Speaker 2: nervous when I think about that delicate ecosystem being so

593
00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:49,796
Speaker 2: thoroughly disrupted. And if you think about the oceans like

594
00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:54,196
Speaker 2: this is like the worst prisoner's dilemma type of thing,

595
00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:58,276
Speaker 2: where you've got this common good and everybody out in

596
00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:01,076
Speaker 2: international waters is doing whatever they can to pull out

597
00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:03,756
Speaker 2: as much fish as possible, make as much money, and

598
00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:06,876
Speaker 2: not everybody's worrying about whether that's going to be sustainable.

599
00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:10,476
Speaker 2: So that's wild caught, and I think most people get

600
00:31:10,476 --> 00:31:13,236
Speaker 2: that there's a finite supply. There's only so an efficientcye

601
00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:17,556
Speaker 2: on the fish farming side. I think what's really underappreciated

602
00:31:17,636 --> 00:31:19,916
Speaker 2: is that a full third of all the aquaculture feed

603
00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:23,196
Speaker 2: comes from forage fish like anchovies and sardines, which are

604
00:31:23,196 --> 00:31:28,756
Speaker 2: well caught and are not infinite in supply, and there

605
00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:31,076
Speaker 2: are real limitations in terms of the number of fish

606
00:31:31,076 --> 00:31:33,716
Speaker 2: farms that you can put in a given area. And

607
00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:36,796
Speaker 2: that's why we're seeing the move toward on land aquaculture

608
00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:40,036
Speaker 2: systems and all these other things. So the confluence of

609
00:31:40,116 --> 00:31:43,396
Speaker 2: all of that. If you don't believe anything I said,

610
00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:47,356
Speaker 2: just go look at salmon prices in real terms versus

611
00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:49,836
Speaker 2: inflation over the last fifteen years and you'll see that

612
00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:52,996
Speaker 2: there isn't five times faster than inflation, which to me

613
00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:55,756
Speaker 2: tells me that we have a real supply problem.

614
00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:59,956
Speaker 1: Salmon getting more expensive is good for you, right, Like,

615
00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,716
Speaker 1: if you can make salmon cheaper, then salmon can make salmon.

616
00:32:06,236 --> 00:32:11,676
Speaker 2: You'll win, yes, but the planet loses, right, And I

617
00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:12,396
Speaker 2: think it doesn't.

618
00:32:12,436 --> 00:32:14,396
Speaker 1: Well, it depends, I mean, it depends on how cheap

619
00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:17,076
Speaker 1: you can get it, right, Like, yeah, I don't mean

620
00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:21,596
Speaker 1: to be glib, but like, fundamentally, your price to beat

621
00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:24,516
Speaker 1: is the price of wild caught salmon. Right, just as

622
00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:28,756
Speaker 1: a business proposition, Like that's the sort of solar story, right,

623
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:31,036
Speaker 1: as you said, like you want people who don't care

624
00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:34,396
Speaker 1: to buy your salmon just because it's cheaper, That's what

625
00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:37,516
Speaker 1: I want, Right, That's the true scale, because most people

626
00:32:37,516 --> 00:32:40,516
Speaker 1: don't care about any particular thing, it's just the nature

627
00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:43,196
Speaker 1: of the world. But they would rather buy cheaper salmon.

628
00:32:43,236 --> 00:32:45,916
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's an argument that, like people don't

629
00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:47,956
Speaker 1: want cultivated salmon, but I don't buy that. Like if

630
00:32:47,996 --> 00:32:51,396
Speaker 1: you look at the garbage people buy, they plainly don't care, right,

631
00:32:51,876 --> 00:32:56,516
Speaker 1: And so I feel like cost is the game.

632
00:32:57,196 --> 00:33:00,516
Speaker 2: All of this is, I guess, in principle good for us,

633
00:33:00,556 --> 00:33:02,796
Speaker 2: but I know myself and my team we kind of

634
00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:06,636
Speaker 2: think about it at a much broader scale, which is salmon,

635
00:33:06,636 --> 00:33:08,516
Speaker 2: whether we make it or it comes from a fish,

636
00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:11,036
Speaker 2: healthy thing that we should be eating more of, and

637
00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:14,036
Speaker 2: it's not good for society if it becomes less accessible.

638
00:33:14,196 --> 00:33:16,196
Speaker 2: That is why I've got this bur in my saddle

639
00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:19,236
Speaker 2: to scale up this process as quickly as we can,

640
00:33:19,356 --> 00:33:21,996
Speaker 2: and not just for the cost and profitability and all

641
00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:24,156
Speaker 2: that stuff we were just talking about, but just to

642
00:33:24,196 --> 00:33:26,076
Speaker 2: get it to more people and to give people a

643
00:33:26,116 --> 00:33:27,236
Speaker 2: more affordable choice.

644
00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:32,476
Speaker 1: What's the salmon. Like, now, if I got the salmon

645
00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:35,236
Speaker 1: sushi at one of the four restaurants where it's would

646
00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:35,756
Speaker 1: I even know?

647
00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:40,316
Speaker 2: I think it depends. And we've actually tested this, So

648
00:33:40,356 --> 00:33:43,036
Speaker 2: we've done blind taste tests for consumer and we obviously

649
00:33:43,076 --> 00:33:45,676
Speaker 2: tell them that there's potentially cultivated. We're not trying to

650
00:33:45,716 --> 00:33:46,516
Speaker 2: fool anybody, but.

651
00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:48,076
Speaker 1: Sure, sure. Yeah. When I say what I even know,

652
00:33:48,116 --> 00:33:49,596
Speaker 1: I don't mean would they be fooling me? I mean,

653
00:33:49,596 --> 00:33:50,876
Speaker 1: would I be able to distinguish?

654
00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:52,996
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And so what we what we've done is

655
00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:54,676
Speaker 2: we put like a piece of our locks, you know,

656
00:33:54,716 --> 00:33:57,676
Speaker 2: so like cured and smoked salmon on a little cracker,

657
00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:00,956
Speaker 2: like a water cracker, and a piece of Russen Daughters

658
00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:04,596
Speaker 2: from New York City, which is delicious the best. I agree,

659
00:34:04,796 --> 00:34:06,996
Speaker 2: that's our gold standard, you know, so master credit to

660
00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:10,556
Speaker 2: Russ and Daughters. And the answer is no, you know,

661
00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:14,316
Speaker 2: with like a pretty high degree of like statistical significance,

662
00:34:14,396 --> 00:34:16,316
Speaker 2: we don't see a distinction in liking.

663
00:34:16,836 --> 00:34:20,076
Speaker 1: Is raw salmon harder to make identical?

664
00:34:20,196 --> 00:34:23,196
Speaker 2: It's hard, yeah, And so I think obviously in the

665
00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:27,156
Speaker 2: right chef hands, and you know, obviously in certain preparations,

666
00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:32,076
Speaker 2: it is indistinguishable, which is a huge, huge accomplishment. And

667
00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:33,796
Speaker 2: the cool thing about what we're doing is that it's

668
00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:34,556
Speaker 2: always improving.

669
00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:36,716
Speaker 1: I mean, what would you like to improve on? In

670
00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:38,956
Speaker 1: what ways would you like to make the salmon you're

671
00:34:38,956 --> 00:34:41,356
Speaker 1: making better for me?

672
00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:43,316
Speaker 2: There are a couple of things. The first one I

673
00:34:43,316 --> 00:34:45,756
Speaker 2: think we've nailed in the latest recipe that we're going

674
00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:48,556
Speaker 2: to be releasing soon is the texture, just like a

675
00:34:48,596 --> 00:34:50,756
Speaker 2: really nice fibrous bite, you know, like when you're biting

676
00:34:50,796 --> 00:34:52,036
Speaker 2: like a nice cube of sashimi.

677
00:34:52,516 --> 00:34:56,156
Speaker 1: It's part of what's great about salmon sushi, right, it's

678
00:34:56,196 --> 00:34:58,996
Speaker 1: the texture. It's like both firm but so smooth and

679
00:34:59,596 --> 00:35:00,196
Speaker 1: of all the fat.

680
00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:02,836
Speaker 2: Right, that's right, Yeah, And it's hard to nail. I

681
00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:04,196
Speaker 2: think we're getting pretty darn close.

682
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:08,636
Speaker 1: In what way is your current version that's out fall short.

683
00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:11,316
Speaker 2: On the text? I'd say it's too homogeneous, Like you

684
00:35:11,356 --> 00:35:13,156
Speaker 2: don't get this sort of like like you know, like

685
00:35:13,196 --> 00:35:15,196
Speaker 2: when your teeth are like biting into like a good

686
00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:17,436
Speaker 2: piece of meat, you kind of feel like the fibers

687
00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:20,756
Speaker 2: ripping a bit at a time. Like with the current version,

688
00:35:21,196 --> 00:35:24,036
Speaker 2: I would say, we haven't you know, fully achieved that

689
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:26,436
Speaker 2: the thing that we're about to really is does so

690
00:35:26,876 --> 00:35:29,396
Speaker 2: I'm really excited about that. And you know, and the

691
00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:31,516
Speaker 2: other thing is protein. So protein is a big part

692
00:35:31,516 --> 00:35:33,516
Speaker 2: of the reason people like to eat any kind of

693
00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:36,116
Speaker 2: meat or seafood, and we're a bit light there, and

694
00:35:36,196 --> 00:35:39,796
Speaker 2: so it's hard to make a product that is raw

695
00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:41,356
Speaker 2: with equivalent protein.

696
00:35:41,516 --> 00:35:43,916
Speaker 1: It's not obvious to me that that would be the case, Like,

697
00:35:43,996 --> 00:35:44,796
Speaker 1: why is that?

698
00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:49,636
Speaker 2: Because raw fish is like eighty to eighty five percent water,

699
00:35:51,396 --> 00:35:53,356
Speaker 2: and so if you want to have twenty percent protein

700
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:55,076
Speaker 2: in there, that means a lot of the protein needs

701
00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:55,956
Speaker 2: to be in the water.

702
00:35:58,116 --> 00:36:00,596
Speaker 1: That's the and in a fish, that's just the way

703
00:36:00,636 --> 00:36:01,116
Speaker 1: it works.

704
00:36:01,316 --> 00:36:05,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's contained in the cells, for example,

705
00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:10,436
Speaker 2: so most cells the water. Yeah, that's a dramatic simplification

706
00:36:10,516 --> 00:36:13,156
Speaker 2: of a quite complex problem. But it's been a challenge

707
00:36:13,196 --> 00:36:15,116
Speaker 2: and I'd say we've made some progress. But those are

708
00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:16,956
Speaker 2: the two things I would like to improve.

709
00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:20,876
Speaker 1: Let's talk about policy. When we were just getting the

710
00:36:20,956 --> 00:36:23,516
Speaker 1: mic set up today, you mentioned that you were had

711
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:27,596
Speaker 1: a press conference this morning today talking about joining a lawsuit.

712
00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:30,916
Speaker 1: What's going on? Why were you on a press conference

713
00:36:30,956 --> 00:36:32,556
Speaker 1: this morning and what were you talking about?

714
00:36:32,956 --> 00:36:38,516
Speaker 2: So Texas banned cultivated foods effective the first of September,

715
00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:42,196
Speaker 2: which which was really unfortunate because you know, we picked

716
00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:44,756
Speaker 2: Otoko because of the head chef is an incredible person,

717
00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:47,396
Speaker 2: he's an adventurous head chef.

718
00:36:47,396 --> 00:36:50,476
Speaker 1: And this is a restaurant in Austin, Texas.

719
00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:53,596
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it was literally like one of five

720
00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:56,356
Speaker 2: that we picked that we wanted to introduce our products

721
00:36:56,396 --> 00:36:59,156
Speaker 2: to the commercial market in. And this decision was made

722
00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:02,476
Speaker 2: way before this band was even like a thought in

723
00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:06,716
Speaker 2: the rancher's minds. But this band went into effect on

724
00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:08,996
Speaker 2: the first and so we had to stop selling at Otoko,

725
00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:13,196
Speaker 2: which is just really unfortunate. And this isn't the first

726
00:37:13,316 --> 00:37:16,196
Speaker 2: date in the Union that has banned cultivated foods, it's

727
00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:19,876
Speaker 2: I believe the seventh. And this is being driven one

728
00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:23,436
Speaker 2: hundred percent by economic protectionism, really by the cattle industry

729
00:37:23,476 --> 00:37:25,796
Speaker 2: who's afraid of competition.

730
00:37:26,636 --> 00:37:30,756
Speaker 1: It does seem like an anti free market, like on

731
00:37:30,796 --> 00:37:33,156
Speaker 1: its face, right, an anti free market move.

732
00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:34,276
Speaker 2: It is like, let.

733
00:37:34,076 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 1: People decide they want to eat cows and fish, they can, right, No,

734
00:37:38,436 --> 00:37:41,556
Speaker 1: it is proposed taking away that option.

735
00:37:41,316 --> 00:37:43,956
Speaker 2: That's right, And given everything that we just discussed in

736
00:37:43,956 --> 00:37:47,716
Speaker 2: that moment of pessimism that you felt, yeah, I just

737
00:37:47,796 --> 00:37:50,796
Speaker 2: like they should have bigger things to worry about, right

738
00:37:50,876 --> 00:37:51,996
Speaker 2: than try to ban a.

739
00:37:52,676 --> 00:37:55,196
Speaker 1: Three little companies that can't even get alone to build

740
00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:55,716
Speaker 1: a factory.

741
00:37:55,916 --> 00:37:59,476
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, leave us alone, for God's sake. And I

742
00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:01,436
Speaker 2: think if most Americans heard about this, they would be

743
00:38:01,476 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 2: pretty annoyed that now the government's telling us what we

744
00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:07,076
Speaker 2: can and can't eat, And like, if you don't want

745
00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:11,556
Speaker 2: our food, don't eat it. That's fine, But that choice

746
00:38:11,556 --> 00:38:13,716
Speaker 2: should be people's choices. It should not be the choice

747
00:38:13,756 --> 00:38:20,196
Speaker 2: of state legislators who got a strategically timed campaign donation.

748
00:38:20,836 --> 00:38:24,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, so your fish is still at four restaurants around

749
00:38:24,836 --> 00:38:25,636
Speaker 1: the country.

750
00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:28,436
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, So luckily Yoshio Kai has a new restaurant

751
00:38:28,476 --> 00:38:31,756
Speaker 2: in Aspen, so we just moved it over there. So

752
00:38:32,076 --> 00:38:34,316
Speaker 2: we're still in four and we'll be announcing a fifth

753
00:38:34,316 --> 00:38:36,476
Speaker 2: one in the next couple of weeks.

754
00:38:37,436 --> 00:38:38,996
Speaker 1: So what do you have to do to get wider?

755
00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:41,996
Speaker 1: What's your ramp from four to everywhere?

756
00:38:42,076 --> 00:38:44,236
Speaker 2: Yeah? And maybe the question to ask before that is like,

757
00:38:44,276 --> 00:38:46,356
Speaker 2: why did we just start with five? When you're making

758
00:38:46,436 --> 00:38:48,596
Speaker 2: real things like what we're doing food, you don't go

759
00:38:48,676 --> 00:38:50,676
Speaker 2: from It's not like software where you just like write

760
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:52,596
Speaker 2: a program and distribute to million people. You need to

761
00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:56,596
Speaker 2: ramp up manufacturing, hire people, supply chain all that stuff.

762
00:38:57,156 --> 00:38:59,716
Speaker 2: And so what we've been trying to do is go

763
00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:04,396
Speaker 2: from literally zero three months ago to shipping product every

764
00:39:04,436 --> 00:39:07,316
Speaker 2: week to three or four, soon to be five restaurants

765
00:39:07,436 --> 00:39:08,236
Speaker 2: around the country.

766
00:39:08,476 --> 00:39:10,556
Speaker 1: Well, so should I how is that going? Or like

767
00:39:10,596 --> 00:39:12,836
Speaker 1: are you getting the fish out the door? Is it

768
00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:15,076
Speaker 1: hard to like make the fish every week?

769
00:39:15,396 --> 00:39:18,436
Speaker 2: It's some things have been harder than we expected. Like,

770
00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:21,836
Speaker 2: for example, we had we had like an ingredient provider

771
00:39:22,116 --> 00:39:26,236
Speaker 2: shift their ingredient pretty dramatically. That changed our formulation, so

772
00:39:26,276 --> 00:39:27,756
Speaker 2: we had to adjust that on the fly. So things

773
00:39:27,756 --> 00:39:30,316
Speaker 2: like that that are just kind of part of any

774
00:39:30,356 --> 00:39:31,556
Speaker 2: new products standing.

775
00:39:31,276 --> 00:39:34,796
Speaker 1: Up manufacturing in a way, it's like biomanufacturing, right, what

776
00:39:34,876 --> 00:39:35,876
Speaker 1: you're doing exactly.

777
00:39:36,676 --> 00:39:40,076
Speaker 2: And so from here we are absolutely open to starting

778
00:39:40,076 --> 00:39:43,876
Speaker 2: to ship to more restaurants as demand comes in, and

779
00:39:43,916 --> 00:39:45,636
Speaker 2: we have had quite a few restaurants reach out to

780
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:47,836
Speaker 2: us and ask if they can start buying it.

781
00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:50,796
Speaker 1: That's good and is the answer yes?

782
00:39:51,196 --> 00:39:52,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, the answer is yes, And we're just kind of

783
00:39:52,636 --> 00:39:55,596
Speaker 2: slotted into our production schedule. And again, we don't want

784
00:39:55,596 --> 00:39:57,116
Speaker 2: to have stock outs, right, That's the last thing you

785
00:39:57,116 --> 00:39:59,316
Speaker 2: want when you're introducing the new product, somebody shows up.

786
00:39:59,316 --> 00:40:00,756
Speaker 2: They went out of the way to try this product,

787
00:40:00,756 --> 00:40:02,796
Speaker 2: and it's like, sorry, we don't have it this day.

788
00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:04,196
Speaker 2: We didn't get our shipment yesterday.

789
00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:08,196
Speaker 1: And then how much bigger can you get with your

790
00:40:08,276 --> 00:40:10,956
Speaker 1: current production facility.

791
00:40:11,316 --> 00:40:13,636
Speaker 2: If everything is maxed out and we tack on a

792
00:40:13,676 --> 00:40:16,756
Speaker 2: little bit more capacity, which we can do. You know,

793
00:40:16,796 --> 00:40:19,756
Speaker 2: we can maybe get up to like fifty restaurants.

794
00:40:19,996 --> 00:40:22,196
Speaker 1: And then you have this step function where you need

795
00:40:22,196 --> 00:40:27,916
Speaker 1: to get alone essentially to build a real industrial scale plant.

796
00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:31,156
Speaker 1: This is the ram question, Like fifty restaurants is great,

797
00:40:31,196 --> 00:40:33,516
Speaker 1: but it's not at all what you're going for. It's

798
00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:35,356
Speaker 1: like what does the magnitude from what you're going for?

799
00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:36,676
Speaker 1: So how do you keep going from there?

800
00:40:37,276 --> 00:40:40,716
Speaker 2: So what I was describing is one path where we

801
00:40:40,796 --> 00:40:42,516
Speaker 2: just build our own facility. We do what we did,

802
00:40:42,556 --> 00:40:44,316
Speaker 2: but just bigger, and we've got to get that finance.

803
00:40:44,356 --> 00:40:46,716
Speaker 2: That's really hard, it's not a lot of appetite. There

804
00:40:46,716 --> 00:40:49,476
Speaker 2: are two other ways you can do this. One is

805
00:40:49,876 --> 00:40:53,956
Speaker 2: we can go to a contract manufacturer that makes cells

806
00:40:54,036 --> 00:40:56,996
Speaker 2: or fermented products and has spare capacity. So instead of

807
00:40:56,996 --> 00:41:00,596
Speaker 2: building it ourselves, huh, we just pay them a toll

808
00:41:01,476 --> 00:41:04,396
Speaker 2: and they make it for us, the cells or even

809
00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:07,916
Speaker 2: the finished product, and then we can expand our capacity.

810
00:41:08,116 --> 00:41:10,556
Speaker 1: And so that is not so capital intensive. You don't

811
00:41:10,596 --> 00:41:13,316
Speaker 1: have to have any huge upfront costs that you need

812
00:41:13,316 --> 00:41:14,156
Speaker 1: to take out a loan for.

813
00:41:14,316 --> 00:41:17,516
Speaker 2: That's right, But it is slow and you can't innovate.

814
00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:20,356
Speaker 2: So if you're working with contract manufacturers, it's like pencils down.

815
00:41:20,476 --> 00:41:23,116
Speaker 1: Uh huh. This is the recipe, that's it. Yeah.

816
00:41:23,196 --> 00:41:25,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the reality is we're still learning, we're still

817
00:41:25,596 --> 00:41:28,036
Speaker 2: adjusting and going fast, which is why we haven't taken

818
00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:31,036
Speaker 2: that path today, but we might. The other option is,

819
00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:34,156
Speaker 2: and we're open to this, is there are companies that

820
00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:36,636
Speaker 2: can build facilities that have lots of cash and a

821
00:41:36,756 --> 00:41:40,236
Speaker 2: much lower cost capital than we do, and we'd be

822
00:41:40,276 --> 00:41:43,556
Speaker 2: happy to license our technology to them. Right, And so

823
00:41:43,916 --> 00:41:46,076
Speaker 2: that means the cell line and the feed and the

824
00:41:46,196 --> 00:41:48,236
Speaker 2: know how to make our products well.

825
00:41:48,276 --> 00:41:51,116
Speaker 1: So like Cargil, the giant food company is actually an

826
00:41:51,156 --> 00:41:53,316
Speaker 1: investor in your company, right, is that the kind of

827
00:41:53,396 --> 00:41:55,556
Speaker 1: company I should be thinking of in this context? Yeah?

828
00:41:55,676 --> 00:41:58,676
Speaker 2: Or giant seafood companies that are maxed out on their

829
00:41:58,716 --> 00:42:01,356
Speaker 2: fish farms, like we would absolutely be happy to partner

830
00:42:01,396 --> 00:42:01,596
Speaker 2: with them.

831
00:42:01,676 --> 00:42:03,676
Speaker 1: Uh huh. That makes a lot of sense.

832
00:42:04,036 --> 00:42:06,516
Speaker 2: That the reality is we're trying to do a lot

833
00:42:06,516 --> 00:42:10,276
Speaker 2: of things at a little seventy some odd person company.

834
00:42:10,476 --> 00:42:12,916
Speaker 2: We can't do it all, and I think we just

835
00:42:12,916 --> 00:42:14,796
Speaker 2: try to be really clear out about that, and when

836
00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:18,196
Speaker 2: it comes to scaling and maximizing the impact and getting

837
00:42:18,196 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 2: this product in front of as many people as possible,

838
00:42:20,876 --> 00:42:22,836
Speaker 2: we try to be really open minded about the best

839
00:42:22,836 --> 00:42:23,356
Speaker 2: way to do that.

840
00:42:24,596 --> 00:42:26,276
Speaker 1: Do you think you're going to try and make something

841
00:42:26,396 --> 00:42:27,236
Speaker 1: after salmon?

842
00:42:28,156 --> 00:42:32,556
Speaker 2: Yes, eventually we will, I think. But the companies that

843
00:42:32,756 --> 00:42:34,916
Speaker 2: really focused on doing one thing and one thing really

844
00:42:34,956 --> 00:42:36,716
Speaker 2: well tended to do better.

845
00:42:38,356 --> 00:42:40,596
Speaker 1: Who are you thinking of the impossible burger?

846
00:42:40,676 --> 00:42:42,916
Speaker 2: Right? They weren't trying to do like chicken shreds and

847
00:42:42,916 --> 00:42:45,596
Speaker 2: the nugget and sausage like all at once. They're like,

848
00:42:46,076 --> 00:42:48,156
Speaker 2: let's make a kick ass burger that tastes pretty good.

849
00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:50,996
Speaker 2: It's made from plants. And they did it, and I

850
00:42:51,156 --> 00:42:53,316
Speaker 2: like that product. They eat it a lot. No, it's

851
00:42:53,356 --> 00:42:54,876
Speaker 2: not for everybody, but a lot of people do it.

852
00:42:54,916 --> 00:42:57,276
Speaker 1: No, our freezer is full of many impossible meats.

853
00:42:57,556 --> 00:43:00,316
Speaker 2: Hopefully that means you're not stockpilling, but you're actually eating them.

854
00:43:00,316 --> 00:43:03,836
Speaker 2: From time to time, not out yet waiting for the apocalypse.

855
00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:06,596
Speaker 1: We don't have the big giant basement freezer. I don't

856
00:43:06,596 --> 00:43:08,076
Speaker 1: want that. It's just a regular freezer.

857
00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:11,156
Speaker 2: But you know, they chose that path while a lot

858
00:43:11,156 --> 00:43:13,116
Speaker 2: of others were like, let's just make like ten different

859
00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:15,436
Speaker 2: things at once, right, And I think for us, focus

860
00:43:15,556 --> 00:43:18,316
Speaker 2: is powerful, and so for now it's salmon. But if

861
00:43:18,356 --> 00:43:21,836
Speaker 2: we start to get energy from potential customers like hey,

862
00:43:21,876 --> 00:43:24,996
Speaker 2: can you make us a blue crab or can you

863
00:43:24,996 --> 00:43:27,116
Speaker 2: make us lobsters scallop? Like, we would take that really

864
00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:29,716
Speaker 2: seriously and we've got the right technological know how to

865
00:43:29,756 --> 00:43:29,996
Speaker 2: do it.

866
00:43:33,676 --> 00:43:35,796
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round.

867
00:43:49,196 --> 00:43:50,636
Speaker 1: We're going to finish with the lightning round.

868
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:51,636
Speaker 2: Let's go.

869
00:43:52,276 --> 00:43:54,756
Speaker 1: So you were in the US Foreign Service in Pakistan

870
00:43:54,876 --> 00:43:58,996
Speaker 1: and Afghanistan. Correct, Yes, What is one surprising thing that

871
00:43:59,036 --> 00:43:59,716
Speaker 1: happened to you there?

872
00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:05,476
Speaker 2: I was as a guest of honor with the governor,

873
00:44:05,716 --> 00:44:09,316
Speaker 2: served the head of a goat, and I had no

874
00:44:09,356 --> 00:44:10,476
Speaker 2: idea what to do with it.

875
00:44:11,436 --> 00:44:13,556
Speaker 1: Like they just put the w all head in front

876
00:44:13,596 --> 00:44:15,596
Speaker 1: of you and said you're welcome.

877
00:44:16,076 --> 00:44:18,396
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if I was being hazed or honored

878
00:44:18,796 --> 00:44:19,196
Speaker 2: or both.

879
00:44:19,356 --> 00:44:22,836
Speaker 1: Huh, Well, did you watch the governor and follow his lead?

880
00:44:23,036 --> 00:44:24,276
Speaker 2: No? Because it went to me.

881
00:44:24,436 --> 00:44:24,836
Speaker 1: Oh.

882
00:44:24,876 --> 00:44:26,916
Speaker 2: I felt very self conscious about that because you know,

883
00:44:26,956 --> 00:44:29,436
Speaker 2: I was about twenty years younger than the governor. It

884
00:44:29,476 --> 00:44:31,996
Speaker 2: certainly didn't feel like I should have. Sure, I represented

885
00:44:32,036 --> 00:44:35,596
Speaker 2: the United States government, but I was also thirty years old.

886
00:44:36,116 --> 00:44:40,356
Speaker 1: So is the governor of the province that you were in. Yeah,

887
00:44:40,396 --> 00:44:41,196
Speaker 1: So what did you do?

888
00:44:41,756 --> 00:44:43,516
Speaker 2: I did the best I could. I like keeled back

889
00:44:43,556 --> 00:44:46,196
Speaker 2: at jowl and went for it. Didn't taste How was it? No?

890
00:44:46,276 --> 00:44:48,196
Speaker 2: It wasn't good. There's some whiskers in there.

891
00:44:48,556 --> 00:44:50,156
Speaker 1: This is this is.

892
00:44:50,156 --> 00:44:52,476
Speaker 2: Not even saying like I think it might have been hazing,

893
00:44:52,556 --> 00:44:54,356
Speaker 2: because there were plenty of other parts of that goat

894
00:44:54,356 --> 00:44:55,516
Speaker 2: that were delicious.

895
00:44:56,036 --> 00:44:57,996
Speaker 1: What's something you missed from that part of the world.

896
00:44:58,876 --> 00:45:02,516
Speaker 2: I missed the food, and I miss the culture of hospitality,

897
00:45:02,876 --> 00:45:06,396
Speaker 2: which I think, unfortunately kind of got lost. A guest

898
00:45:06,596 --> 00:45:10,276
Speaker 2: is sacred to a lot of the push people, and

899
00:45:10,316 --> 00:45:13,316
Speaker 2: there's nothing you essentially wouldn't do for a guest, even

900
00:45:13,396 --> 00:45:17,236
Speaker 2: though he or she might be your putative enemy.

901
00:45:17,276 --> 00:45:20,116
Speaker 1: How did you experience that in practice? What's an example

902
00:45:20,156 --> 00:45:22,156
Speaker 1: of that? From your experience?

903
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:26,556
Speaker 2: There were people who I knew were active Taliban fighters

904
00:45:26,596 --> 00:45:28,556
Speaker 2: who welcomed me into their home and introduced me to

905
00:45:28,636 --> 00:45:33,996
Speaker 2: their relatives because that's what the customs demanded, even though

906
00:45:34,036 --> 00:45:37,276
Speaker 2: you know, later that night they were probably laying IED's

907
00:45:37,596 --> 00:45:41,996
Speaker 2: blown up my friends. So yeah, it was things like that.

908
00:45:42,716 --> 00:45:46,236
Speaker 2: And by the way, it was not like duplicitous. They

909
00:45:46,276 --> 00:45:50,396
Speaker 2: were genuinely trying to extend hospitality.

910
00:45:50,476 --> 00:45:51,196
Speaker 1: Were you a spy?

911
00:45:51,756 --> 00:45:52,196
Speaker 2: I was not.

912
00:45:54,116 --> 00:45:55,876
Speaker 1: I mean, you would say that in any case. But

913
00:45:56,116 --> 00:45:58,516
Speaker 1: I had to ask, what's one thing you've learned as

914
00:45:58,516 --> 00:46:01,356
Speaker 1: a diplomat that is helpful to you running your company?

915
00:46:02,236 --> 00:46:03,556
Speaker 2: Thinking before you speak?

916
00:46:04,756 --> 00:46:07,996
Speaker 1: Very good answer. I'm still working on that one.

917
00:46:09,236 --> 00:46:10,316
Speaker 2: You know. I didn't say anything.

918
00:46:10,996 --> 00:46:13,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, just not speaking. I've learned just not speaking and

919
00:46:13,716 --> 00:46:16,676
Speaker 1: not speaking is a great move, Like you don't have

920
00:46:16,716 --> 00:46:17,396
Speaker 1: to respond.

921
00:46:17,596 --> 00:46:19,716
Speaker 2: It turns out that's one of the most powerful things

922
00:46:19,796 --> 00:46:22,236
Speaker 2: you can do as a parent when you're challenged. It's

923
00:46:22,316 --> 00:46:23,476
Speaker 2: just not say anything.

924
00:46:23,996 --> 00:46:27,116
Speaker 1: Yes, you weren't a scientist when you got into this business.

925
00:46:27,716 --> 00:46:31,116
Speaker 1: What's one great thing, interesting thing, favorite thing that you've

926
00:46:31,196 --> 00:46:33,316
Speaker 1: learned about cells in your work.

927
00:46:34,076 --> 00:46:42,996
Speaker 2: Cells are the most miniaturized, incredibly powerful versions of us,

928
00:46:44,436 --> 00:46:47,236
Speaker 2: and they have so much potential right. I think when

929
00:46:47,236 --> 00:46:49,876
Speaker 2: we all go through biology classes we learn that cells

930
00:46:49,876 --> 00:46:53,756
Speaker 2: are the building blocks of life, but like no shit,

931
00:46:53,916 --> 00:47:00,276
Speaker 2: they actually are and see and seeing it, seeing it

932
00:47:00,476 --> 00:47:04,196
Speaker 2: happen and assemble into things that become tissues and organs

933
00:47:04,276 --> 00:47:07,316
Speaker 2: is incredible, incredible.

934
00:47:14,036 --> 00:47:17,676
Speaker 1: Justin Kolbeck is the co founder and CEO of Wild Type.

935
00:47:18,476 --> 00:47:21,796
Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We

936
00:47:21,836 --> 00:47:25,556
Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's

937
00:47:25,596 --> 00:47:29,396
Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinamanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It

938
00:47:29,556 --> 00:47:33,556
Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garreton and engineered by Sarah Bricguherrett.

939
00:47:33,796 --> 00:47:35,916
Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with

940
00:47:35,996 --> 00:47:44,276
Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.