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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Daniel H. Wilson with as Cherokee citizen and a

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Speaker 2: New York Times best selling author. His book is called

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Speaker 2: Hole in the Sky. He has earned a PhD in

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Speaker 2: robotics from the Carnegie Mellon University, as well as a

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Speaker 2: master's degrees in Machine and Learning and robotics as well. Daniel,

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Speaker 2: welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 3: Have you been hey good, Hey, George, It's great to

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Speaker 3: be back.

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Speaker 2: Had a good year looking forward to this. There's about

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Speaker 2: what four hundred and fifty thousand members of the Cherokee tribe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's about right.

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Speaker 2: Based primarily in Oklahoma. I would guess, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 5: They were force marched out there, you know, in the

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Speaker 5: eighteen hundreds on what people call the trailer tears, but

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Speaker 5: forced removal.

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Speaker 2: And it's kind of like a government within a government,

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Speaker 2: isn't it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So you know it's kind of interesting. Oklahoma used

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Speaker 5: to be Indian territory, uh, and then at some point

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Speaker 5: the five tribes were set up there as sovereign governments.

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Speaker 5: So they kind of exist on top of the jurisdiction

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Speaker 5: of the state and federal government in Oklahoma.

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Speaker 4: So, for instance, in the Cherokee.

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Speaker 5: Nation where I grew up, which overlaps with North Tulsa,

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Speaker 5: you know, you you have Cherokee marshalls, you have Cherokee

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Speaker 5: police hospitals, Cherokee court system, and so you know, you

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Speaker 5: have a Cherokee license plate and a Cherokee license and

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Speaker 5: they kind of have agreements with all the you know,

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Speaker 5: the state of Oklahoma and the Tulsa County to do

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Speaker 5: business there. But it's a it's definitely a unique, a

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Speaker 5: unique place and not really what people.

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Speaker 4: Think of when they think of sort of like a reservation.

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Speaker 5: It's It's Oklahoma kind of has its own thing going

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Speaker 5: on there.

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Speaker 2: I think the television Westerns have changed people's perception of

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Speaker 2: what's going on going on on a reservation tribes place.

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Speaker 4: Huh.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, There's been a lot of great a lot

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Speaker 5: of great news shows and things out there. Dark Quinns

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Speaker 5: I've enjoyed and Out of Range so and of course, uh,

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Speaker 5: Reservation dogs As has been great.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there's been.

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Speaker 5: A lot of a lot of new science fiction and

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Speaker 5: you know, just regular media that's kind of given people

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Speaker 5: a more accurate perception of what's going on on reservations.

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Speaker 2: Tell us, Daniel, what the reason and rationale is of

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Speaker 2: having a Cherokee reservation.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a it's a place where the Cherokee people

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Speaker 5: can have, you know, where they can have a sovereign

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Speaker 5: tribal government and be in charge of themselves in their

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Speaker 5: in their own story, you know, after you know, so

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Speaker 5: hole on this guy, for instance, is about first contact.

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Speaker 5: And you know, after first contact and every all the

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Speaker 5: colonization that's happened in North America, you know, this is

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Speaker 5: kind of where everything ended up for the Cherokee and

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Speaker 5: for the other tribes that are in Oklahoma. And and

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Speaker 5: you know, so as a result, they're they're able to

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Speaker 5: do some really great things. I mean, I love hearing,

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Speaker 5: you know, the Cherokee newspaper called the Cherokee Phoenix. I

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Speaker 5: live in Portland, Oregon, so I've moved away from Oklahoma,

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Speaker 5: but I go back every year, and I love hearing

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Speaker 5: the news because they're doing really great things for their

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Speaker 5: citizens out there.

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Speaker 2: How many different Native American indigenous tribes governments are in

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Speaker 2: this country.

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Speaker 3: Geez, I don't know, hundreds, certain really.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And what's the significance of each and every

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Speaker 2: one of them? I mean, just for sovereignty, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean it gives the tribe some control over over defining,

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Speaker 5: you know.

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Speaker 4: What it means to be in the tribe. For instance,

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Speaker 4: you know, with.

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Speaker 5: The Cherokee, being a citizen is really you know, that's

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Speaker 5: that's what matters. They get to decide who, you know,

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Speaker 5: is a Cherokee citizen. We actually recently, you know, the

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Speaker 5: Cherokee were forced marched to Oklahoma. But when they marched,

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Speaker 5: they actually had they brought slaves because they had come

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Speaker 5: out of the South, and part of the treaty UH said,

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Speaker 5: you know that these these freedmen, these freed slaves were

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Speaker 5: part of the tribe. And so you know, we have

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Speaker 5: African American members of the Cherokee Nation. And so each

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Speaker 5: nation really gets to to make those decisions about it's

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Speaker 5: about itself, about its identity, and about how things are

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Speaker 5: going to be run. I'm super proud of the Cherokee

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Speaker 5: Nation and and you know, it was a real pleasure

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Speaker 5: to to to make the setting of this of this

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Speaker 5: novel out UH in the Cherokee Nation with Cherokee characters

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Speaker 5: and really get to think about first contact.

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Speaker 4: With an alien entity from kind of.

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Speaker 3: A native perspective as well as you know.

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Speaker 5: I've got characters from the government and and uh, scientists

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Speaker 5: characters and all that. But it was a really unique

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Speaker 5: perspective I think on looking at first contact.

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Speaker 2: And when you talk about first contact, of course on

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Speaker 2: this program, we're talking about extraterrestrials. How about you.

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Speaker 5: Well, I am, you know, for this novel, but it's

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Speaker 5: it's a pretty loaded term, right whenever you're talking about

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Speaker 5: whenever you're talking to native people, because you know, we've

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Speaker 5: got uh, you know, we had first contact, and we've

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Speaker 5: had you know, the history of our country all those

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Speaker 5: things that have happened. And I think that if you

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Speaker 5: if you read science fiction and you look at all

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Speaker 5: the alien invasion scenarios, it's it's usually, you know, they

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Speaker 5: show up and they want to take what we've got, right,

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Speaker 5: It's it's usually pretty uh, it's a pretty big mess, right,

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Speaker 5: the aliens show up and they want to extract our

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Speaker 5: resources or enslave us. And you know, I think that

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Speaker 5: that's that's pretty understandable that we would have a lot

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Speaker 5: of fiction like that because if you look at the

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Speaker 5: actual history of our nation.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's that's what's happened.

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Speaker 5: Uh, you know, that's just a sort of a fear

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Speaker 5: projection that what we've you know, what has happened in

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Speaker 5: our history is going to happen again to us. And

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Speaker 5: so that's why I really wanted to kind of look

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Speaker 5: at it from a new perspective and imagine it, you know,

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Speaker 5: you know, imagine it stepping outside of that and acknowledging

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Speaker 5: that you know that we have that history and that

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Speaker 5: we have those fears as a result.

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Speaker 2: Well, with doctor Daniel A. J. Wilson. His website is

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Speaker 2: linked up at Coast tocoastam dot com and his book

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Speaker 2: is called Hole in the Sky. He's got a PhD

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Speaker 2: in robotics, which we'll talk to him about a little

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Speaker 2: bit later on this program. Robotics fascinates me, Daniel. We

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Speaker 2: talk a lot about the Hopey Indian tribe on this

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Speaker 2: program and the incredible things that they've come across, where

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Speaker 2: they've talked about ant people and people like that. I

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Speaker 2: think they were visited by ets. What do you think

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 5: So, you know, I dove into a lot of the

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Speaker 5: Cherokee mythology and cosmology for this novel, and I can

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Speaker 5: only really speak for Cherokee, but.

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Speaker 3: I think that every culture.

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Speaker 5: Across the you know, the world looks up, has looked

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Speaker 5: up into the nice sky, looked up into the stars

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Speaker 5: and imagine what's up there and what's coming down. And

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Speaker 5: I think that every culture uses their stories and to

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Speaker 5: make sense of the world. And you know, it's kind

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Speaker 5: of crazy to see how many similarities there are in

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Speaker 5: the stories. Sure tribes you know in North America, but

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Speaker 5: also cultures everywhere all over the world, and going really

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Speaker 5: far back in time, they've all got stories that are

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Speaker 5: you know, eerily similar and certainly you know, fit the

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Speaker 5: modern day descriptions of the stories that we have now,

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Speaker 5: you know, about what we consider aliens.

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Speaker 2: Indian medicine, men, shamans have fascinated me since I was

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Speaker 2: a kid. Did your grandfather or his father talk to

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Speaker 2: him about the strange things at all?

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know, there's there's all these rules, you know,

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Speaker 5: like about you don't whistle at night, and if you're

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Speaker 5: walking in the woods, you know, there's all these rules

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Speaker 5: about how to how to walk in the woods without

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Speaker 5: kind of slipping into a different place where.

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Speaker 4: You don't belong.

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Speaker 3: And you know, a lot of those rules.

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Speaker 5: Uh, if you feel somebody coming up behind you, you

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Speaker 5: turn around fast with you know, without fear.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 5: If you find if you you know, if you find

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Speaker 5: something that would you leave it there? All these little

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Speaker 5: rules I think, you know, you see them also with

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Speaker 5: with uh, like Irish folk tales and you see them

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Speaker 5: all over. So I heard little rules like that, just

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Speaker 5: little things like that. But honestly, a lot of times

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Speaker 5: people don't want to talk about that stuff because if

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Speaker 5: you do talk about it, you know, you kind of

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Speaker 5: bring it into the into the world and uh, and

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Speaker 5: maybe you don't want to deal with it.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you want to let it be.

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Speaker 2: What would you say, Daniel might be some of the

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Speaker 2: strangest mythologies of the Cherokee nation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean one of my favorites. And one

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Speaker 5: thing that partially inspired this novel is the origin story

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Speaker 5: of the Cherokee people, which has to do with the

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Speaker 5: Pliadese constellation, which is also called the Seven Sisters. And

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Speaker 5: this is a this is constellation is really important to

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Speaker 5: the Mesopotamians and the Babylonians, the Greeks, so it's been

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Speaker 5: important to a lot of different cultures over a.

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Speaker 3: Vast period of time.

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Speaker 5: It's actually in a different spot in the sky at

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Speaker 5: this point because of precession. You know, Earth wobbles a

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Speaker 5: little bit, it's tilted on its axis and it wobbles,

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Speaker 5: and that moves where the stars are at in the sky.

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Speaker 3: And that's how long.

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Speaker 4: They've been important.

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Speaker 5: And the Cherokee oral tradition says that Star Woman came

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Speaker 5: from the Pleiades constellation and came and brought Cherokee people

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Speaker 5: to Earth and opened up and the people came out

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Speaker 5: of her, and her sisters were angry that she had

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Speaker 5: taken the people, and so they cast her up into

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Speaker 5: the sky, hid her behind a veil, and renamed her

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Speaker 5: to the Dark One, And so Cherokee the oral tradition

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Speaker 5: is that they actually came from a different star system.

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Speaker 5: And I mean, you know, you look at people making

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Speaker 5: sense of the world and telling these oral traditions over

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Speaker 5: hundreds and hundreds of years, and then you look at

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Speaker 5: it from kind of a modern perspective, or you look

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Speaker 5: at it from a kid who grew up reading lots

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Speaker 5: of science fiction, and man, you know, it just seems

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Speaker 5: like it seems like a great story to me. It

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Speaker 5: seems like a familiar story to me, and something I

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Speaker 5: really wanted to explore.

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Speaker 2: What is a Cherokee version of a higher power or

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Speaker 2: of a god.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. You know, there is

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Speaker 5: no sort of single entity. Obviously, there's the Indian churches,

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Speaker 5: so there's Christianity, you know, in the among Cherokee and

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Speaker 5: among natives. But what's really interesting is if you look

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Speaker 5: at a lot of those oral traditions, they change with

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Speaker 5: the introduction of Christianity and Christianity just I'm speaking in

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Speaker 5: generalities here, but it tends to be more about good

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Speaker 5: and evil, and it tends to be more proscriptive, as in,

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Speaker 5: like here's.

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Speaker 4: The answer, you know.

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Speaker 5: And so if you look at stories from before Christianity,

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Speaker 5: you have characters that people call these days, they call

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Speaker 5: them trickster characters, you know, but like that's really just

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Speaker 5: a way of saying, we don't know if they good

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Speaker 5: or evil. Sometimes they're good and sometimes they're evil because

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Speaker 5: like the stories were not they weren't trying to achieve

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Speaker 5: the same thing, you know, And so you know, you

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Speaker 5: see that actually across a lot of Native tribes. One

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Speaker 5: one thing I really find interesting is the Lakota. The

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Speaker 5: name for their religion is the Great Mystery I mean

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Speaker 5: they're literally not trying to tell you all the answers.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're not telling.

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Speaker 5: You what the you know, what everything is. They're living

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Speaker 5: with the unknown. You know, the unknown is out there.

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Speaker 5: And I think from a from a Native perspective, A

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Speaker 5: lot of times I feel.

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Speaker 4: Like this is just me, but I feel.

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Speaker 5: Like Native people are more comfortable with the unknown and

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Speaker 5: with letting it be, letting it be out there without

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Speaker 5: having to put a name to it, destroy it, understand it,

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Speaker 5: figure it out. You know it just it is and

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Speaker 5: it's a part of our world. And so, you know,

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Speaker 5: I find that to be a really interesting sort of perspective,

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Speaker 5: especially when you're considering first contact.

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Speaker 2: Me about Native Americans as well, is the way they

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Speaker 2: handle their own medicine, with the herbs and things like that.

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Speaker 2: How did they know all this?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I mean this is something that I

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Speaker 5: wanted to explore because we see so much in science fiction.

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Speaker 5: We see so much Western sort of technology, right, shiny

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Speaker 5: robots and spaceships and stuff like that. But there is

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Speaker 5: indigenous technology.

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Speaker 3: You know, it exists. There's a lot of knowledge.

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Speaker 5: And experience that's gone out into the world that go

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Speaker 5: into those bundles and things like that, and all that medicine.

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Speaker 3: And what I find interesting is that sometimes.

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Speaker 5: From a Western perspective, that stuff's invisible, right, It's almost

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Speaker 5: like you.

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Speaker 3: Can't see it, you know. One example that I have.

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Speaker 5: That I've been thinking about is how when settlers showed

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Speaker 5: up on the East Coast, they often described those forests

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Speaker 5: that they interacted with as a garden of Eden.

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Speaker 3: Right, they were beautiful, it was a beautiful place. They

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Speaker 3: thought it was wild that.

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Speaker 5: These primitive people were so lucky that they got to live,

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Speaker 5: you know, in this garden of Eden. But if you

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Speaker 5: you know, I love that quote from Arthur C.

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Speaker 4: Clark.

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Speaker 5: You know, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic,

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Speaker 5: and those those settlers were looking at technology, and they

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Speaker 5: thought it was magic.

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